View Full Version : NiB barrel extensions
Just curious, why is a NiB BCG considered bad (or at least sub-optimal due to the way it wears), but a number of respected companies offer NiB barrel extensions? I've seen NiB BCGs fall out of favor and be replaced by NP3 (or good ol' fashioned phosphate), but only one company I know of offers a barrel with NP3 extension.
I would guess corrosion resistance, but it doesn't do anything for the exposed bit of breach face on the barrel, which I don't think has chrome on it. Could be wrong about that, though.
Ease of cleaning in another selling point. Would also stand up to the chamber brushes with steel wire on the extension side.
In all honesty, though, there's nothing wrong with the standard extensions and coatings. These special coatings cause more problems than they solve. Nickel boron once it breaks in is actually not very slick at all, and the nickel teflon coatings tend to flak off. If I had to have some special coating, I would probably choose zirconium nitride, but I have yet to see anything that's as smooth as broken in phosphate. My Mk18 cycles smooth as glass and actually did from day one even before break in.
What is wrong with your phosphate BCG and barrel extension than needs to be "fixed”?
The only thing I avoid if I can’t find phosphate is nitride. Nitride shouldn’t be used on parts with a critical case hardening process.
Based on my NiB bolt breakage and the general sucky characteristics of the finish, I avoid it like the plague.
I have a barrel with a NiB extension. I honestly forget its coated (BA Hanson). I would neither buy or avoid barrel for a NiB coated extension. FWIW, this question was asked and answered before: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?207783-Nickle-Boron-barrel-extension
Andy
Edit - I have 2 barrels with NiB extensions, BA Hanson and BRT Optimum.
The only thing I avoid if I can’t find phosphate is nitride. Nitride shouldn’t be used on parts with a critical case hardening process.
In the AR which parts are those?
These special coatings cause more problems than they solve. Nickel boron once it breaks in is actually not very slick at all, and the nickel teflon coatings tend to flak off. If I had to have some special coating, I would probably choose zirconium nitride, but I have yet to see anything that's as smooth as broken in phosphate.
LOL! :)
https://i.imgur.com/HYVwwCh.jpg
If I go pull the oldest and most used / 'broken in' Colt Phosphate carrier I have and compare -
No way in hell it will be smoother than that finish.
LOL! :)
https://i.imgur.com/HYVwwCh.jpg
If I go pull the oldest and most used / 'broken in' Colt Phosphate carrier I have and compare -
No way in hell it will be smoother than that finish.
Just wait until it gets worn down and starts sticking.
Does the question have context? Like 1k rnds per day vs 1k rnds per year?
Could we say for the casual shooter, most/all the finishes will last a "lifetime" ?
Does the question have context? Like 1k rnds per day vs 1k rnds per year?
Could we say for the casual shooter, most/all the finishes will last a "lifetime" ?
Obviously we could. We could also say the casual shooter will do fine with 4140 barrels, 6061 receivers, .080” carbine gas ports, and a whole host of other bad ideas.
My context was simply this: we know the drawbacks of NiB in a BCG, yet a few highly respected companies continue to use it in barrel extensions. I’m just curious if the drawbacks (flaking, improper heat treating, increased friction with wear) show themselves less in barrel extensions or something.
Based on my NiB bolt breakage and the general sucky characteristics of the finish, I avoid it like the plague.
What made you think it was the finish that caused breakage?
I don’t think the electroless nickel process is high enough heat to mess with the hardness. Did the finish crack and allow corrosion?
Just wait until it gets worn down and starts sticking.
Pretty clear to me you have zero experience running these things and even less than zero experience with modern finishes applied by reputable companies.
:)
Does the question have context? Like 1k rnds per day vs 1k rnds per year?
Could we say for the casual shooter, most/all the finishes will last a "lifetime" ?
I've never seen any evidence that any alternative coatings increase longevity, except maybe in the context of corrosions resistance. But if you're neglecting the gun to the point that that makes a difference then your springs are going to be toast anyways.
I think there's also an argument that a lot of these coatings might negatively impact longevity, too, seeing as how most parts rely on heat treating, and the application of the coatings requires high heat. In many if not most cases I think there's a strong argument that it's enough to mess with the heat treat.
Pretty clear to me you have zero experience running these things and even less than zero experience with modern finishes applied by reputable companies.
:)
It's obvious from how shiny that bolt is you haven't used it long enough for those problems to start manifesting. You'll be singing a different tune.
NiB wear characteristics suck. I would not choose to use it for anything.
It's obvious from how shiny that bolt is you haven't used it long enough for those problems to start manifesting. You'll be singing a different tune.
It is a fairly recent production carrier from Toolcraft. (The bolt came from them as well but guessing you are aware they do not manufacture those)
I put more faith in their reputation for getting things right than I do random garbage I read on the internet from random posters. Especially when those random posters make unsubstantiated claims they can't back up with any evidence...
Having been a member on the other site for over 15 years now - I am pretty sure if Toolcraft was botching their NiB finishes I would have read about it long before now and there would have been pictures posted of the problem carriers. I have not read about any such issues there or seen any such pictures because issues like you describe are not at all common.
It is a fairly recent production carrier from Toolcraft. (The bolt came from them as well but guessing you are aware they do not manufacture those)
I put more faith in their reputation for getting things right than I do random garbage I read on the internet from random posters. Especially when those random posters make unsubstantiated claims they can't back up with any evidence...
Having been a member on the other site for over 15 years now - I am pretty sure if Toolcraft was botching their NiB finishes I would have read about it long before now and there would have been pictures posted of the problem carriers. I have not read about any such issues there or seen any such pictures because issues like you describe are not at all common.
You DO hear about it. As the finish wears, it gets gritty and starts to stick. Locked up actions requiring mortaring are a well known problem with nickel boron.
The reason you don't hear about it from everyone is because basically everyone buying nickel boron is a commercial customer, so very few of them get hard use. Or any use at all. The vast majority get built and never fired. The rest get fired maybe twice a year, if even that.
You do you, bro, but you're gonna learn the hard way.
NiB is terrible. I can't believe anyone here would parrot that stuff.
I can't even count how many problems I have observed with it.
NiB is terrible. I can't believe anyone here would parrot that stuff.
I can't even count how many problems I have observed with it.
Still laughing about that video you did where you demonstrated how to overlube the heck out of one with your homemade junk.
THAT was a priceless video sir! LOL! :)
https://i.imgur.com/h9Wz0rT.jpg
Still laughing about that video you did where you demonstrated how to overlube the heck out of one with your homemade junk.
THAT was a priceless video sir! LOL! :)
https://i.imgur.com/h9Wz0rT.jpg
No such thing as over lube.
The only junk here is your advice.
No such thing as over lube.
The only junk here is your advice.
You did one of your 'Physical' videos of the exact same type Toolcraft NiB carrier I posted a picture of and at the end (about the 18:39 point) you said yourself "Overall, Pretty good Physical".
https://i.imgur.com/cRqaxw9.jpg
No mention anywhere in that entire video of any sort of problems with NiB or any sort problems you found with that particular carrier related to it's coating. Nothing, Nada, Zero problems that you found or reported related to the finish at all from that Toolcraft carrier.
You did spend a good few minutes measuring the firing pin protrusion and crying about how you did not like it and how it was a bit on the short side of the spec but ultimately said the carrier 'passed'.
For far less time than you spent crying about the FP protrusion in that video you could have easily shown people how to 'correct' it .006 in the other direction to place it right at the .028 that you were wanting to see.
https://i.imgur.com/hZj46pV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/613tRjC.jpg
.006 off of that shoulder is a 30 second adjustment on a 2 dollar part for anyone with a piece of fine sandpaper and a means to power spin the firing pin. 5 minutes tops if a guy wants to get there slowly / sneak up on his desired protrusion and do it spinning the pin by hand.
If something as simple as .006" of firing pin protrusion is causing you as much grief as what it seemed to be in that video and you are clueless as to how to resolve it...
And then the lube thing that you have clear issues with...
Very thankful I did not go to your 'school'. :)
You did one of your 'Physical' videos of the exact same type Toolcraft NiB carrier I posted a picture of and at the end (about the 18:39 point) you said yourself "Overall, Pretty good Physical".
https://i.imgur.com/cRqaxw9.jpg
No mention anywhere in that entire video of any sort of problems with NiB or any sort problems you found with that particular carrier related to it's coating. Nothing, Nada, Zero problems that you found or reported related to the finish at all from that Toolcraft carrier.
You did spend a good few minutes measuring the firing pin protrusion and crying about how you did not like it and how it was a bit on the short side of the spec but ultimately said the carrier 'passed'.
For far less time than you spent crying about the FP protrusion in that video you could have easily shown people how to 'correct' it .006 in the other direction to place it right at the .028 that you were wanting to see.
https://i.imgur.com/hZj46pV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/613tRjC.jpg
.006 off of that shoulder is a 30 second adjustment on a 2 dollar part for anyone with a piece of fine sandpaper and a means to power spin the firing pin. 5 minutes tops if a guy wants to get there slowly / sneak up on his desired protrusion and do it spinning the pin by hand.
If something as simple as .006" of firing pin protrusion is causing you as much grief as what it seemed to be in that video and you are clueless as to how to resolve it...
And then the lube thing that you have clear issues with...
Very thankful I did not go to your 'school'. :)
Yikes man cool off. There are better things to get angry about.
One video does not show everything I have worked on. I say it in just about every other video.
There's about 11k AR's that are not on video. I have a long write-up about problems with NiB on BCG's.
Using sandpaper on the bolt tail or firing pin does not allow for a square shoulder to be created. A non squared shoulder can allow protrusion to change rapidly.
I have seen other posts you have made here. You are at outside your lane.
No worries about my classes. I'm backlogged over 600 students. My classes sell out in minutes.
Ned Christiansen
02-07-21, 16:00
Well this thread is about (I had to go back and check) NiBX and not FP protrusion but I will comment on that.
I have never, ever sweated it or checked it and I don't own a FP protrusion gage. I will say that since the first time I ever looked at an AR15 firing pin sticking out of a bolt I said "that'll never fire". Protrusion seems so minimal.... and yet I have not personally seen one misfire due to inadequate protrusion, so.... to this day I don't own the gage. But. Item 1: Touring a plant that was making BCG's for real-deal .gov contract guns, they made a big deal about gaging FP's from the flange to the tip. Actually they were not gaging them, they were measuring them (there's a dif) and keeping an SPC plot on them (Statistical Process Control). As I recall it, but not sure-- it was a while ago-- they were doing 100% inspection and I recall that being part of the mil-spec. Point being, they took it seriously where I never have. Item 2: SOTAR takes it seriously and gages it. I gotta tell ya, that makes me think maybe I should have been taking it seriously all these years. Item 3: At the plant they were also gaging or measuring, well, lots of things but to include the bolt dimension from the end of the tail to the bolt face. If this was long it would also lead to scant FP protrusion (it is held to +/- .002). Sanding the flange of the FP will all respect would not be a good or easy or fast way of correcting an issue. In a pinch, maybe.
So back to NiB / NiB-X. Not asking anyone to re-hash what's wrong with it, I'll research that here when I get the chance, but I didn't know there was something wrong with it. I would have said everything to gain and nothing to lose, but-- not a ton to gain, given that I have and use carriers with, I think, every finish ever offered (almost) and a few with no finish-- bare steel. All work the same. I've sure handled a lot more of than I've used and the NiB'd ones feel darned slippery-- that can't hurt. I will say I have not seen rust on anything NiB'd. I have seen one NiB'd bolt break-- yesterday. So of the many broken bolts I've seen, one was NiB'd. When it happened I didn't think it was because it was plated, but-- I really don't know. It's not a high temp process, in fact years ago I did it at home and it was easy-- at 190 degrees.
ViperTwoSix
02-07-21, 16:11
Back on track... I think we have two different topics going- BCGs and the original question regarding barrel extensions.
Full disclosure, I have no experience with NiB nor do I own anything NiB. There have been lots of unfavorable opinions and experiences with NiB BCGs. Now that being said, were these experiences with any specific brand? I ask about brand because both FailZero and WMD claim their versions of NiB will not crack, flake, wear off, or any of the bad things most mentioned when someone has a negative experience. Or, have the same experiences with poor wear, flaking, cracking, etc. also been experienced with these brands despite their claims that their proprietary coatings do not flake or spall?
Also of note, I did read this testing that does show some improved functionality from FailZero’s version of NiB. Does this mean real world experiences regarding poor quality of NiB coating is invalid, of course not. I did find it interesting though.
https://www.uctcoatings.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2010/08/FAILZERO-Test-Report-w_sand-pics.pdf
Now, to the OP’s original question regarding barrel extensions. Have the same negative experiences folks have had with NiB BCGs also been experienced with barrel extensions? Does anyone know of a Ballistic Advantage NiB barrel extensions flaking or cracking for example? Or a LWRC NiCorr barrel flaking or cracking or having a catastrophic fail due to the coating? Has anyone used and had poor wear characteristics from a FailZero or WMD-X barrel extension?
Maybe there is no improvement over phosphate for a barrel extension despite whatever the manufacturer claims. I don’t have enough experience with NiB to know. However, my inquiring mind hasn’t found much specific to barrel extensions having issues with NiB using the google so I can’t help but wonder if anyone here has experiences, positive or negative, specific to barrel extensions? Even the many negative reviews I have read about BA barrels I don’t recall any of them having anything to do with their NiB barrel extension.
Ned,
I would be very interested to hear what you learn. I’ve been trying to understand what sucks so bad about NiB for some time, but I lack metallurgical expertise. As in, I know just enough to know that I know jack shit, and the more I learn, the more my ignorance is shown. I avoid it most of the time just because other people here that sound knowledgeable bash it.
I will say, I have a semi-retired rifle that has had a pile of rounds fed through it by a Fail-Zero bolt purchased around 2009. Many thou.
I’ve shot approximately a metric shit-pile of ammo through NiB barrel extensions on BA and BRT barrels. Still no issues. In fact, I’ve never broken a barrel extension of any type. The BRT barrel has been retired, so we’re not talking two cases of ammo here.
If y’all look through the Sionics two-stage trigger thread, you’ll see that I’ve got 8,500 rounds on one now. It hasn’t exploded yet. I’ll put it under a surface microscope at 10k for giggles.
It does seem to drastically improve corrosion resistance. I don’t really know if any of its other claims are legit, but it feels slick. Wipes down nicely.
mNot asking anyone to re-hash what's wrong with it, I'll research that here when I get the chance, but I didn't know there was something wrong with it.
The issues I have seen with NiB Barrel Extensions are not what I would consider catastrophic, but I avoid them due to what I have seen.
The more irritating thing I have seen is hard cycling when people don't use lubricant. Something appears to happen when NiB is fouled and sits without lubrication. It can cause it to be very difficult to initially charge the firearm. I don't know why it happens, just that it does.
Another issue I have repeatedly observed is the coating causing short headspace. Most people think AR's don't need to have HS checked so they think this is a non issue.
Another issue but more rare is rapidly opening headspace if the coating chips/delaminates.
Sometimes the lug raceways are undersized due to the coating and this can allow unwanted bolt lug contact/friction when going in and out of battery.
I can post the NiB BCG problem list in another thread.
Well this thread is about (I had to go back and check) NiBX and not FP protrusion but I will comment on that.
I have never, ever sweated it or checked it and I don't own a FP protrusion gage. I will say that since the first time I ever looked at an AR15 firing pin sticking out of a bolt I said "that'll never fire". Protrusion seems so minimal.... and yet I have not personally seen one misfire due to inadequate protrusion, so.... to this day I don't own the gage. But. Item 1: Touring a plant that was making BCG's for real-deal .gov contract guns, they made a big deal about gaging FP's from the flange to the tip. Actually they were not gaging them, they were measuring them (there's a dif) and keeping an SPC plot on them (Statistical Process Control). As I recall it, but not sure-- it was a while ago-- they were doing 100% inspection and I recall that being part of the mil-spec. Point being, they took it seriously where I never have. Item 2: SOTAR takes it seriously and gages it. I gotta tell ya, that makes me think maybe I should have been taking it seriously all these years. Item 3: At the plant they were also gaging or measuring, well, lots of things but to include the bolt dimension from the end of the tail to the bolt face. If this was long it would also lead to scant FP protrusion (it is held to +/- .002). Sanding the flange of the FP will all respect would not be a good or easy or fast way of correcting an issue. In a pinch, maybe.
So back to NiB / NiB-X. Not asking anyone to re-hash what's wrong with it, I'll research that here when I get the chance, but I didn't know there was something wrong with it. I would have said everything to gain and nothing to lose, but-- not a ton to gain, given that I have and use carriers with, I think, every finish ever offered (almost) and a few with no finish-- bare steel. All work the same. I've sure handled a lot more of than I've used and the NiB'd ones feel darned slippery-- that can't hurt. I will say I have not seen rust on anything NiB'd. I have seen one NiB'd bolt break-- yesterday. So of the many broken bolts I've seen, one was NiB'd. When it happened I didn't think it was because it was plated, but-- I really don't know. It's not a high temp process, in fact years ago I did it at home and it was easy-- at 190 degrees.
Ned,
I wouldn't dare to tell you what you should do. I'll just share my experience.
If you start checking protrusion you might be surprised how often bolts/firing pins fall outside the proper range. If I had to throw out a #, at least 20% fail a protrusion check.
The amount of protrusion isn't a big deal to most people until they start having what I call "ghosts in the machine". That can be random reliability issues, light strikes, ammo sensitivity, and in some cases accuracy/consistently problems.
When headspace is on the more sloppy side, short protrusion rears it head even more.
When I work on a gun purposed for precision work I like to see protrusion on the high side. I have seen more consistency when there is more protrusion. My theory is it results in a more consistent powder burn.
In most cases you can just grab another firing pin and pass a bolt/f.p. combination. I don't worry about individual F.P. or Bolt length. The recipe is what is important to me. What do the two parts measure when they do their intended task, the recipe.
When manufacturers attend my courses they often bring parts they can't figure out why they won't work. This isalways a great learning experience for me and everyone attending. When we see "off" issues with a bolt it's almost always one of these things 1) short headspace, 2) F.P. Protrusion, 3) bent/burred firing pin or firing pin channel, 4) undersized bolt tail, 5) bad extractor dimensions or extractor travel, 6) undersized/oversized bolt face, 7) ejector tunnel drilled too deep, and 8) a beveled or oversized firing pin hole.
Just sharing my experience, not telling you what to do my friend.
Using sandpaper on the bolt tail or firing pin does not allow for a square shoulder to be created. A non squared shoulder can allow protrusion to change rapidly.
You can't see the part behind the paper that keeps things square?
Good lord man...
I tried to make it so easy anyone could understand but... :(
( I never said or implied dicking with any bolt tail - )
the AR-15 Junkie
02-07-21, 17:54
One video does not show everything I have worked on. I say it in just about every other video.
There's about 11k AR's that are not on video.
No worries about my classes. I'm backlogged over 600 students. My classes sell out in minutes.
Your self grandiose is really getting old man, give it a rest.
Your self grandiose is really getting old man, give it a rest.
You can always start a training company. I welcome the competition.
Your self grandiose is really getting old man, give it a rest.
By definition, if what he posted, and you highlighted is true, its not “self grandiose”, now is it? I don’t know if he’s right or wrong, but I do think running off professionals is counterproductive.
By definition, if what he posted, and you highlighted is true, its not “self grandiose”, now is it? I don’t know if he’s right or wrong, but I do think running off professionals is counterproductive.
He wont be chasing me off. I'm here because Grant wants me here.
Ned Christiansen
02-07-21, 18:31
DG23, I wondered what the hell the disconnectors were doing on the firing pin but I didn't give it any thought beyond that. I can only say-- very clever, and yeah, I agree that would work.
the AR-15 Junkie
02-07-21, 18:34
By definition, if what he posted, and you highlighted is true, its not “self grandiose”, now is it? I don’t know if he’s right or wrong, but I do think running off professionals is counterproductive.
Not trying to run anyone off, just suggesting he stop with the constant bragging on how great he and his school is.
Not trying to run anyone off, just suggesting he stop with the constant bragging on how great he and his school is.Honestly not sure how you're getting that impression. I've read every SOTAR post on this forum and watched a few of his videos, and I don't remember ever getting the impression was tooting his own horn at all.
Maybe I don't get out enough, but I've never seen anyone go to the detail that he has in measuring the critical dimensions of the AR platform, and in sharing that information with us. Frankly, I'm grateful for the guy, and glad that he takes the time to give his highly experienced and educated opinion on this forum.
Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk
Nocalsocal
02-07-21, 19:12
The only thing I can add to this topic is that I had a hell of a time installing a BA Hanson barrel into a BCM upper. The fit was so tight I had to freeze the barrel and then heat the upper receiver with a torch. I still had to use a mallet for the last .25 of travel.
As for SOTAR, I really appreciate his informative videos. It really helped me to understand the value of torque and the stacking of tolerances.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
DG23, I wondered what the hell the disconnectors were doing on the firing pin but I didn't give it any thought beyond that. I can only say-- very clever, and yeah, I agree that would work.
That sandpaper was / is adhesive backed as well. It is not moving around from where it gets placed. The disconnector being a good fit on the pin and flat pretty much make sure that shoulder being adjusted is going to stay relatively flat and square.
That sort of mod comes in handy if you ever get into the 7.62 x 39 uppers and plan to use the cheap comblock ammo. Some guys will shell out way too much for an 'enhanced' firing pin (more protrusion) and others will simply 'fix what they have' so that it works.
Appreciate your input with respect to this topic sir.
Ned Christiansen
02-07-21, 22:05
Seems like Stoner and JMB both liked 5/32" as a nominal dimension for pins of all types! (ref. firing pin fitting through a disconnector).
The only thing I can add to this topic is that I had a hell of a time installing a BA Hanson barrel into a BCM upper. The fit was so tight I had to freeze the barrel and then heat the upper receiver with a torch. I still had to use a mallet for the last .25 of travel.
As for SOTAR, I really appreciate his informative videos. It really helped me to understand the value of torque and the stacking of tolerances.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's BCM's doing, and it's a good thing. Vltor started it. The tighter you can get it the better.
What made you think it was the finish that caused breakage?
I don’t think the electroless nickel process is high enough heat to mess with the hardness. Did the finish crack and allow corrosion?
It appeared to be a propagating Crack failure with multiple starting on the lugs at their bases. Electroless or electroplating is not hot enough to affect metallurgical properties.
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