View Full Version : Aim a little higher perhaps? - Gaithersburg, MD Shooting
https://www.rt.com/usa/514859-maryland-deputy-shooting-video/
After the first 6 failed to stop the guy (or even slow him down) - Thinking the officer should have went for the melon...
Averageman
02-07-21, 17:57
So much fail here.
I'm with the Brother in the background yelling shoot his ass.
So much fail here.
I'm with the Brother in the background yelling shoot his ass.
Yup.
I counted 12 shots before the guy seemed to slow down any. Steadily getting closer and closer to the officer as he was soaking up those hits...
I usually support the LEO out there as they have difficult jobs, one that I don't want to be, but this one should practice and learn some close quarter techniques. He was way behind the OODA loop. Two hands then one hand waving the free hand around trying to block the stick. That's the easiest way to get your hand, fingers, wrist and anything else connected broken. I'm not even going to the fat shaming route.
Averageman
02-07-21, 18:58
I feel like at ten feet that guy was justified, on parting that guy front teeth with a 9mm.
kaiservontexas
02-07-21, 20:04
Eep, I should have skipped the video. Not because of empathy. . .
The attacker was slowing down due to the shock of pain at the end. You could see it on his face. When it all finally registered.
Frankly I am surprised at the restraint the officer showed. I would have been faster on the draw concerning any individual attacking me with a weapon, and yes the stick is a weapon. The officer could have received a severe injury or death from being hit in the head. I think he was hit in the head with it. I remember the attacker down swinging hard and the stick breaking. I do not recall if he deflected that hit or took it upon his head. All I do know for sure is that the attacker was amped up to fight, and I do not mean he was on drugs, could have been for all I know but I do not know, but that he was in a berserk state it appears there at the end moving forward into those rounds.
dwhitehorne
02-07-21, 20:34
Everybody must view this video in context of it occurring in Montgomery county Maryland. One of the most liberal areas in the country. Unfortunately the deputy probably has had more hours of sensitivity type training than Use of Force training. It is a great video to show people how getting shot with a handgun is nothing like what they see in the movies. David
Ladies and gentlemen, critical duty! Yeah he should have put one in his bean but also shouldn't be so damn fat. You ever been hit with a stick? It isn't that bad.
Fighting a person in crisis can be like fighting someone thats on PCP. Incredible strength and seemingly immune to pain. That 9mm did its job, I counted about 5 seconds from first shot until the suspect went down. I'm guessing some people are expecting a one stop shot from a non CNS hit?
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Wonder if a shotgun would have been any more effective?
Leaveammoforme
02-07-21, 21:32
Funny how they edited out the racist portion in the video. I'm shocked.
*sigh*
That was pathetic.
Seriously.
My busted ass could have taken stick-guy without needing the gun.
Wasn't even like, a board or bat or something serious, it's a stick off the ground.
I know...couch commando internet BS and all that. But sheesh.
Nah, if I shot a dude like that, no way I'd be justified.
Not giving the copper a break cuz he's to incompetent to get out of his own way.
Funny how they edited out the racist portion in the video. I'm shocked.
It's happened here and there before with various other videos/recordings, God forbid anyone hear a racist word from the special people, or hear someone complain about issues they've experience with the special people. :rolleyes:
Wonder if a shotgun would have been any more effective?
I would think only a CNS shot would have been effective. Pelvic shot would have maybe stopped the advance.
Coal Dragger
02-08-21, 02:59
I’m going to disagree. In that instance a shotgun would probably have dumped the assailant pretty quickly. One or two rounds of 00 buck at that distance is going to make a couple of really big holes, and if nothing else cause the guy to bleed out faster and loose consciousness.
Don’t bring a stick to a gunfight
How long until caliber is discussed lol....That deputy is lucky the guy didn't bum rush him and take his gun
Black_Sheep
02-08-21, 07:15
I have to wonder if drugs were involved. Driving erratically and assaulting a car he crashed into with a stick. A taser didn’t phase him, apparently a dozen 9mm rounds didn’t initially have much effect either. There’s got to be more to the story...
EDIT - did not read the article deeply and probably should have gathered more information. I have trouble seeing a crazy guy waving a little branch as requiring deadly force, but I was not there either.
Andy
SeriousStudent
02-08-21, 08:37
I have to wonder if the "woke" department's policies caused the person's death. If the officer had used a baton, taser, pepper spray, or a can of whoop-ass, dude would be home now complaining how the officers assaulted him, not taking a dirt nap.
With at least two officers on the scene, I cannot see this as justified. An armed citizen would be in jail for doing the same thing.
Where are the riots? Don't white lives matter?
Andy
The officer did deploy a Taser prior to the video segment, it was ineffective. That happens about 50 percent of the time.
And teaching failure drills is an important part of the lesson plan. Two to the body, and then if they remain unimpressed, fire a single shot to the head.
Even if the round fired to the head is not fatal, I have always seen them drop the assailant. I did work a call where a bartender took a round to the grape, and it dropped him like a pole-axed steer according to witnesses. The guy regained consciousness as I was checking his carotid pulse.
That whole "Arise, Lazurus!" moment spooked all of us. But two witnesses and the first responding officer all thought he was dead as a doornail.
Failure drills are a thing. I have seen them work, but they have to be consciously drilled as part of "Check your work through your sights".
I'm not attacking the officer - the comments about Maryland being a liberal cesspit are spot on, and undoubtedly impacted his decision-making.
So much fail here.
I'm with the Brother in the background yelling shoot his ass.
The witness filming the incident should be investigated for committing a hate crime, endangering an officer, interference with an officer in the performance of his duty and inciting violence. In the video, the witnesses said the victim deserved to be shot for his white privilege.
Yes, I have been beaten with a stick. Several times.
Wonder if a shotgun would have been any more effective?
You don't have to wonder.
The statistics are pretty clear. 70% of people shot with a handgun will survive. 70% shot with a Long gun, die. That includes carbines etc...Within it's performance envelope, nothing dumps people like the shotgun with 00. That's not to say it's 100%....but the odds are with you....
Averageman
02-08-21, 11:35
It is almost as if the Officer couldn't believe this was happening to him and that he really, really hated to pull that trigger.
I don't know if he would have reacted differently, but a machete or even a baseball bat would likely have killed him.
https://www.rt.com/usa/514859-maryland-deputy-shooting-video/
After the first 6 failed to stop the guy (or even slow him down) - Thinking the officer should have went for the melon...
It looks like the video got taken down at that link. Can someone provide another link to the video? Thanks.
Joe Mamma
It looks like the video got taken down at that link. Can someone provide another link to the video? Thanks.
Joe Mamma
It’s been scrubbed.
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It looks like the video got taken down at that link. Can someone provide another link to the video? Thanks.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/AmnR8SCEGd6T/
https://www.bitchute.com/video/AmnR8SCEGd6T/
Thanks for posting that.
Is it only me or was their a pile of failure in that?
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Coal Dragger
02-09-21, 04:08
Bad situation. The officer really didn’t want to shoot the guy, I give him credit for that.
Once he had to start shooting he did what he was most likely trained to do. In this instance it took longer to work than anyone would probably expect.
If the cop had other tools available like a baton he could have probably avoided needing to shoot at all after the taser failed. But clubbing people is no longer PC so here we are.
Averageman
02-09-21, 07:35
Bad situation. The officer really didn’t want to shoot the guy, I give him credit for that.
Once he had to start shooting he did what he was most likely trained to do. In this instance it took longer to work than anyone would probably expect.
If the cop had other tools available like a baton he could have probably avoided needing to shoot at all after the taser failed. But clubbing people is no longer PC so here we are.
I understand where you are coming from, but if the Taser didn't work, I would go to gun immediately because of the behavior of that guy wasn't going to be fixed by a rap across the collar bone with some hickory.
Bad situation. The officer really didn’t want to shoot the guy, I give him credit for that.
Once he had to start shooting he did what he was most likely trained to do. In this instance it took longer to work than anyone would probably expect.
If the cop had other tools available like a baton he could have probably avoided needing to shoot at all after the taser failed. But clubbing people is no longer PC so here we are.
When you go to work with a stick on someone who is an EDP, high, drunk or some combination of all three and isn't feeling pain, you are not going to stop them with the normal strikes. It will become a brutal engagement as you are literally having to break bone and joints until they are no longer able to press the fight. If my Taser fails due to NMI failure, I'm switching to my pistol not my stick, and I do carry a 26" straight stick daily. That suspect was *not* operating or existing in the same realm as the rest of us and the first few times you see that, it's spooky.
This will be hashed over nationwide by LE and LE trainers. There is a lot to look at, go over, and learn from in this.
I agree nearly 100% with the narrator.
Guy needed to be shot and got exactly what he deserved. Red, yellow, black or white makes no difference. You disobey commands, shrug off a taser and advance on an officer with a weapon, tough shit, you've made your choice and nobody but YOU is responsible for that.
C'mon man, he could have shot him in the leg instead of the heart...
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-police-training-shoot-em-in-the-leg
Coal Dragger
02-09-21, 13:25
When you go to work with a stick on someone who is an EDP, high, drunk or some combination of all three and isn't feeling pain, you are not going to stop them with the normal strikes. It will become a brutal engagement as you are literally having to break bone and joints until they are no longer able to press the fight. If my Taser fails due to NMI failure, I'm switching to my pistol not my stick, and I do carry a 26" straight stick daily. That suspect was *not* operating or existing in the same realm as the rest of us and the first few times you see that, it's spooky.
This will be hashed over nationwide by LE and LE trainers. There is a lot to look at, go over, and learn from in this.
Thanks for the insight on that.
Nocalsocal
02-09-21, 13:42
It amazes me people here are saying that a baton strike or some other “less than lethal” use of force option would have been more suitable. Is he supposed to be in a some sort of stick duel with the guy? When tazers are 50% effective and baton strikes hover around 25% or even 10% depending on the user’s ability. And then what? Hit him in the head with a baton? That’s deadly force in my department.
The guy already had a weapon in his hand and wasn’t afraid to swing it at a uniformed officer’s head. I just hope the officer was operating within his departments UOF policy. But it looks like a legitimate shoot to me.
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Coal Dragger
02-09-21, 14:58
Just thinking of ways to not need to shoot a guy, I know that isn't a popular position here sometimes (being a firearms centric forum) but I am not a big fan of LEO's only being able to resort to the compliance by gunfire method. Would that guy have decided to not be a stick wielding crazy person if he got clubbed in the head or face? Probably not, does that mean I don't want the officer on scene to determine, within their own ability, that they can probably fend the guy off with a baton or subdue him? I would like the officer to have those tools available, maybe he did and chooses not to carry a baton. I'm not going to armchair QB him, he did what he could within his ability with the tools he had. He went home at the end of the day, and tried like hell to not have to kill that guy.
Just because a suspect can be justifiably shot, doesn't mean I want them all to get shot; as a regular citizen I would prefer my local LEO's be reticent to use lethal force unless it is really necessary. Someday I could be the one interacting with an LEO for some reason (no I would not be assaulting one with a damn stick!), and I'd rather deal with the guy who wants everyone to go home at the end of the day.
It amazes me people here are saying that a baton strike or some other “less than lethal” use of force option would have been more suitable. Is he supposed to be in a some sort of stick duel with the guy? When tazers are 50% effective and baton strikes hover around 25% or even 10% depending on the user’s ability. And then what? Hit him in the head with a baton? That’s deadly force in my department.
The guy already had a weapon in his hand and wasn’t afraid to swing it at a uniformed officer’s head. I just hope the officer was operating within his departments UOF policy. But it looks like a legitimate shoot to me.
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he should learn from Steven Seagal or Dan Inosanto :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZnYtFJWyR8
Defaultmp3
02-09-21, 15:57
You don't have to wonder.
The statistics are pretty clear. 70% of people shot with a handgun will survive. 70% shot with a Long gun, die. That includes carbines etc...Within it's performance envelope, nothing dumps people like the shotgun with 00. That's not to say it's 100%....but the odds are with you....That line of thinking is incorrect, because the issue isn't lethality, it's incapacitation; the problem with incapacitation is that it's strongly influenced by psychological factors if it's not a CNS hit. DocGKR actually has a whole article about why "lethality" is a poor phrase to use in ammo discussions.
The nebulous term "Lethality" is inappropriate and misleading and should ideally be banned from all discussions of terminal performance. What if an enemy combatant is hit with a projectile and immediately ceases hostile actions, but is not killed? If “Lethality” is the measured and defined metric, then the projectile has failed, because the opponent did not receive a lethal wound, although in actuality the projectile was extremely effective in stopping hostilities. Similarly, if an opponent is fatally shot, but manages to wipe out an entire squad of friendly personnel before succumbing to their wound, the projectile demonstrated 100% “Lethality”, but was utterly ineffective at stopping the enemy from continuing their attack. The phrase "Terminal Effectiveness" is far more accurate and appropriate than “Lethality”, as the death of an enemy combatant is then only one possible consequence instead of a stated intent and defined requirement for success.
A shotgun likely would not have killed the suspect any faster, as the human brain can operate up to 20 seconds without an active pulse (though a good argument can be made for increased psychological stops with long guns). Beyond that:
A 70 kg male has a cardiac output of around 5.5 liters per minute. His blood volume is about 4200 cc. Assuming that his cardiac output can double under stress, his aortic blood flow can reach 11 Liters per minute. If this male had his thoracic aorta totally severed, it would take him 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his total blood volume. This is the minimum amount of time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. A marginally trained person can fire at a rate of two shots per second. In 4.6 seconds there could easily be 9 shots of return fire before the assailant’s activity is neutralized. Note this analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perusing the brain that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.
The only way to guarantee an immediate stop is to hit CNS, or possibly enough distributed damage to the skeletal system, though the latter is obviously not really something firearms your average LEO are issued are good at.
Averageman
02-09-21, 16:57
The only way to guarantee an immediate stop is to hit CNS, or possibly enough distributed damage to the skeletal system, though the latter is obviously not really something firearms your average LEO are issued are good at.
Hmm, I always thought several shots to the pelvis with the intent of breaking the bones would shut a guy down also.
Hmm, I always thought several shots to the pelvis with the intent of breaking the bones would shut a guy down also.
Pelvic shots can cause massive blood loss as well.
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Defaultmp3
02-09-21, 18:08
Hmm, I always thought several shots to the pelvis with the intent of breaking the bones would shut a guy down also.Shots to the pelvic girdle can destroy locomotion, sure, but if the guy is already on you, or is disciplined and knows how to shoot while on the ground, then it doesn't really solve your problem as immediately as a CNS shot (assuming that it shot is good enough to shut down arm movement, whether it be through destroying the brain, spinal shock, or severing of the spine at the correct place). Also note that breaking the bones in the pelvis requires a long gun, as handguns won't do the trick reliably.
Averageman
02-09-21, 19:23
Shots to the pelvic girdle can destroy locomotion, sure, but if the guy is already on you, or is disciplined and knows how to shoot while on the ground, then it doesn't really solve your problem as immediately as a CNS shot (assuming that it shot is good enough to shut down arm movement, whether it be through destroying the brain, spinal shock, or severing of the spine at the correct place). Also note that breaking the bones in the pelvis requires a long gun, as handguns won't do the trick reliably.
If we're going hand to hand, I'm biting him on the nose and shooting him in the crotch until slide lock. I'll pick me teeth at Valhalla and see you all there.
J/K.
I would imagine center mass is where the job would get done, but I do believe someone moving at that speed I'll be looking over the top of the slide and disregarding sights completely.
There is some fail in the shooting video for sure, but it's no match for the fail of some people commenting about it in here.
You probably should not speak definitively about what you would have done or what force options would have worked unless you have been in a situation in which you may have to use them or have used them. I've used them all and other than a 62-grain bonded round between the blinkers... nothing is the magic weapon... not even rifle rounds being pumped center mass. There's a dude I know that lurks in these forums that I believe put 17-.223 rounds into a guy before it ended the fight.
There's no flipping way I'd deal with this exact incident with any less-lethal force option other than cylinder cycle of the 40mm loaded with CTS 4557 from 50 yards away. I doubt it would work as pain compliance tools did not seem too viable based on the way the guy was soaking up 9mm. Anyone that thinks it'd be a good idea to try and go hands on with the stick wielding sasquatch of a man on PCP doesn't know a thing of what they're talking about when it comes to Police UOF and/or trying to take someone who does not want to comply into custody, especially alone. Anyone that thinks that they wouldn't lose consciousness taking a good shot from that stick upside their head is talking s@*t.
While we're bandying-about statistics, 80% of cops that get their guns taken get killed with them and I'm pretty sure that dude wasn't looking to hug it out with the cop.
Nocalsocal
02-10-21, 18:44
he should learn from Steven Seagal or Dan Inosanto :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZnYtFJWyR8
LOL. I only know one officer who has the skills like Dan Inosanto. And he also happens to be a Dogg Brother. Whats crazy is in one particular off duty incident he took more of a beating than the other guy.
Albeit he held back and mostly restrained the tweaker but it sure didn’t help him from taking some sh*t from us when he got back to work.
The average officer isn’t a martial artist so we fall back on training, good or bad.
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LOL. I only know one officer who has the skills like Dan Inosanto. And he also happens to be a Dogg Brother. Whats crazy is in one particular off duty incident he took more of a beating than the other guy.
Albeit he held back and mostly restrained the tweaker but it sure didn’t help him from taking some sh*t from us when he got back to work.
The average officer isn’t a martial artist so we fall back on training, good or bad.
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Lot of truth there. For a lot of cops it's a job and they have zero actual expectation of using their duty weapon even though they get told over and over that it could happen. Most cops probably worry more about post shooting investigations than they do about shot placement. The absolute best and worst shooters I've ever seen are groups that are both populated by law enforcement.
I know guys who go into their own pocket to train, get advanced instruction and practice, practice, practice and I know guys who won't show up for FREE training because it isn't required and they are off the clock. It always amazes me every time I see it but it never changes.
titsonritz
02-10-21, 21:59
Lot of truth there. For a lot of cops it's a job and they have zero actual expectation of using their duty weapon even though they get told over and over that it could happen. Most cops probably worry more about post shooting investigations than they do about shot placement. The absolute best and worst shooters I've ever seen are groups that are both populated by law enforcement.
I know guys who go into their own pocket to train, get advanced instruction and practice, practice, practice and I know guys who won't show up for FREE training because it isn't required and they are off the clock. It always amazes me every time I see it but it never changes.
Yep crazy, I just don't get it, one would think if carrying a gun was in your job description you'd make a point to at least be competent with it.
Yep crazy, I just don't get it, one would think if carrying a gun was in your job description you'd make a point to at least be competent with it.
My original ccw instructor told me a story of a cop he’d known that when he either retired or when the department switched from revolvers to a semi auto, that he went to pull it from its leather holster and the damned thing was corroded into the leather and he couldn’t get it out. He’d never drawn it from the day it was issued.
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titsonritz
02-10-21, 22:18
My original ccw instructor told me a story of a cop he’d known that when he either retired or when the department switched from revolvers to a semi auto, that he went to pull it from its leather holster and the damned thing was corroded into the leather and he couldn’t get it out. He’d never drawn it from the day it was issued.
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Pathetic.
And the only thing that would cross his mind is, "I should re-blue that, it looks like crap".
Yep crazy, I just don't get it, one would think if carrying a gun was in your job description you'd make a point to at least be competent with it.
Happens in the military too. If you aren't a combat arms MOS, you probably don't remember anything about shooting or engagements. You qualify and then do your job...and if you suddenly find yourself deployed and "behind the lines" became "active"...well lets just say a lot of people don't adapt to that change as well as they could have.
For lots of people this is just a "job" and they hope and assume that certain things won't happen and certain skills will never actually be needed. Yes it's completely insane. I don't know a single fire fighter who takes the job hoping he never has to put out a real fire, I don't know a single EMT that takes the job hoping they never have to try and save a life for real...but damn I bet 40% of any given LE agency has that mindset.
If I listed all the shit I've seen related to law enforcement instruction and qualification it would be 12 pages of shit most here wouldn't even believe. And what's worse is every guy from NY who is or was LE or a LE instructor told me exactly the same thing..."it's much worse where I come from." So assuming that is true, NYC (which should have the largest training budget in the country) has some of the lowest performance standards when it comes to teaching, qualifying or advanced applications related to firearms. The fact that South Florida is considered to be some kind of "gold standard" in comparison is just horrifying. I have heard similar things about LAPD but that seems to be unique to just that agency, but again given the budgets they should command again the entire thing is unacceptable.
Ironically, all of the LEO's I know from Cook County SO or Chicago PD are serious about firearms training, real world tactics and that sort of thing even when it means doing it on their dime and their personal time. Maybe they just get shot at with greater frequency.
I also think half of the problem is Los Angeles and New York City don't have any kind of firearms culture or hunting experience and that makes them generally more knowledgeable about various graffiti styles than firearms. They can literally read tags of various writers (who perfect a style of writing that is meant to be unreadable to outsiders) with more competence than they can apply their firearm. Add in heavy over reliance of things like tasers and you have LEOs with less firearms experience than my niece when she was 12 years old.
Another problem is change in mindset policy. Back in the 80s they were trying to wake everyone the hell up and get them to accept the "be ready for it to happen, be prepared when it happens" mindset. Seems like the last decade or so, but really as a consequence of the Rodney King incident, the mindset seems to be "do whatever it takes to not have to use your duty weapon." And more than a few LEOs have suggested that "off duty" additional training could be used against them in any post shooting investigation and they could be characterized as someone who was "trying to get into a shooting situation" or otherwise escalated a situation into a deadly force confrontation either because they wished to shoot someone or as a consequence of all of their additional training went directly to a deadly force solution because that is what all of their training predisposed them to do.
Informed people know that additional firearms training usually result in LEOs who are so confident in their ability that they tend to remain calmer during confrontations and escalations and have the experience that let's them wait until the last minute when deadly force became mandated by the situation, but that logic is lost on most people and insanity prevails to the point that some LEOs fear specialized training and the implications and presumptions that are often made in relation to it.
So while the confrontation in the OP was a complete shit show, I've seen worse. The shootings related to the Chris Dorner incident and the number of bystanders shot by NYC PD following events in 2014 are probably the two biggest examples I've seen of bottom standards in law enforcement.
titsonritz
02-10-21, 23:49
Happens in the military too. If you aren't a combat arms MOS, you probably don't remember anything about shooting or engagements. You qualify and then do your job...and if you suddenly find yourself deployed and "behind the lines" became "active"...well lets just say a lot of people don't adapt to that change as well as they could have.
LOL, I watched my daughter, who was 10 or 11 at the time, outshoot two "Army" guys and one "Navy" guy. I'm like, "What did you guys do in the military? I hope you weren't infantry" :lol:
I, on other hand, have never been in the military or LE, but last year I spent about 10-12K on firearms training when you factor in the classes, the ammo and the travel.
Averageman
02-11-21, 06:54
The Army does it's best to make sure you aren't shooting/training outside of those two qualification days.
Please don't recommend anything or be an innovative trainer, sit down, shut up.
The Army does it's best to make sure you aren't shooting/training outside of those two qualification days.
Please don't recommend anything or be an innovative trainer, sit down, shut up.
I spend all but 1 year of my 20 years in Army non-Combat Arms units. I am sure I shot up more ammunition in the months before I left for Iraq than the rest of my career. That includes a year carrying a 249.
At least I was pretty proficient with my issued rifle the third time I deployed...
Andy
In 20 years in the USAF (Munitions Systems), I believe I went to the range a grand total of five times, for M16 qualification.
Nocalsocal
02-11-21, 10:15
Lot of truth there. For a lot of cops it's a job and they have zero actual expectation of using their duty weapon even though they get told over and over that it could happen. Most cops probably worry more about post shooting investigations than they do about shot placement. The absolute best and worst shooters I've ever seen are groups that are both populated by law enforcement.
I know guys who go into their own pocket to train, get advanced instruction and practice, practice, practice and I know guys who won't show up for FREE training because it isn't required and they are off the clock. It always amazes me every time I see it but it never changes.
I pretty much agree. Unless the individual gets his own off duty training the departments training is heavily influenced or hampered by politics, lawsuits, or budget.
Most likely all three.
In my department maybe only 5-10 percent seek additional training because they recognize the faults in the department approved curriculum.
Some guys are switched on 24/ 7. Some turn it on and off appropriately. But most see it as a job. Some are burnt out. Some don’t know what time it is. No matter how long or short they’ve been in.
The first 2 examples are the ones seeking training either in the gym, range, dojo. These are the ones I don’t worry about.
Hell I’d be happy if an officer would seek therapy or counseling if they thought it would improve their performance. Anything helps.
But that leaves the majority to fall back on their quarterly, semi or yearly mandatory training to get by. The ignorant assumption that the department has their best interest at heart. The over reliance on the bare minimum is scary for everyone.
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That line of thinking is incorrect, because the issue isn't lethality, it's incapacitation; the problem with incapacitation is that it's strongly influenced by psychological factors if it's not a CNS hit. DocGKR actually has a whole article about why "lethality" is a poor phrase to use in ammo discussions.
A shotgun likely would not have killed the suspect any faster, as the human brain can operate up to 20 seconds without an active pulse (though a good argument can be made for increased psychological stops with long guns). Beyond that:
The only way to guarantee an immediate stop is to hit CNS, or possibly enough distributed damage to the skeletal system, though the latter is obviously not really something firearms your average LEO are issued are good at.
Agreed, 'lethality' is a very poor metric in terminal ballistics. I think (there I go again), though, the discussion about mid-velocity (handguns) and High-velocity (rifles) is less about ammo and more sheer physics. Why do I carry a pistol? Because I can't carry a .300 WINMAG or .338 Lapua.
Regarding the brain function, the 20-second thing is dependent upon many factors and is often not an issue.
CNS hits always > COM--ain't no coming back from a devastating shot to the noodle--and dick shots (pelvic girdle) are great for bad guys who wear body armor (almost none of them), but heads move and pelvic shots are just hard on people are moving, so COM is where the comfort is. It's hard to train for quality CNS shots on a static range.
There's a lot of assumption that just because LE is trained, they are trained, and can manage their own physiological mess in those circumstances. I am sure some are, but I would bet a bucket of KFC that the vast majority are not. And armed civilians? Hell naw. Some agencies have seized upon this and have put in some pretty aggressive training in stress inoculation.
Averageman
02-11-21, 11:22
Sometimes you find a job, that is more than a days work, it becomes a calling. You love the job so much that you strive to be the best at it. Study and train on your days off and even pay out of pocket for your own training.
You just can't get enough.
And then others, for what ever reason, circumstance drop's a calling in a guys lap, who was just looking for a drone 9-5 job.
That might work in some jobs but, military, law enforcement, medicine that's a formula for disaster.
You know I saw a minute of this guys day, on his "Worst Day on the Job" and I'm being a dick for saying it, but that guy appears to be one of the guys from the second example I gave.
I don't want to judge his character by one example and I probably shouldn't, but also guy number two likely also doesn't have..
An ulcer, high blood pressure, a dozen concussions, hearing loss, had to have various surgeries/injuries do to on the job injuries. No PTSD, alcohol problems, multiple failed marriages and a kid or two that doesn't know him , but still hates him.
You either sit on the fence or you saddle up and ride and I never liked fencing.
Whatever you love was never promised to love you back.
CNS hits always > COM--ain't no coming back from a devastating shot to the noodle--and dick shots (pelvic girdle) are great for bad guys who wear body armor (almost none of them), but heads move and pelvic shots are just hard on people are moving, so COM is where the comfort is. It's hard to train for quality CNS shots on a static range.
Another problem is training. Since 1979 I have been indoctrinated with front sight / COM, rinse, repeat. And even though some people have taught me Moz skills, my basic response to anything is still 90% front sight (sometimes flash sight) and COM and shoot until stop. It would probably take me 6 rounds out before I moved out of my norm and went for something like CNS depending upon how close they were.
The only time I engage head shots is MP5 / M4 platforms and that is usually preceded by a few to center mass. With handguns I punch the center until good and it's hard to move me out of that.
Everybody must view this video in context of it occurring in Montgomery county Maryland. One of the most liberal areas in the country. Unfortunately the deputy probably has had more hours of sensitivity type training than Use of Force training. It is a great video to show people how getting shot with a handgun is nothing like what they see in the movies. David
What's interesting is the comments I see online. Even with a vid, denial or mythology persists: "2 rnds from a .45 would have ended it" "he obviously had a vest on" and other classics. They just don't learn/don't care that it's not like TV...
Agreed, 'lethality' is a very poor metric in terminal ballistics. I think (there I go again), though, the discussion about mid-velocity (handguns) and High-velocity (rifles) is less about ammo and more sheer physics. Why do I carry a pistol? Because I can't carry a .300 WINMAG or .338 Lapua.
Regarding the brain function, the 20-second thing is dependent upon many factors and is often not an issue.
CNS hits always > COM--ain't no coming back from a devastating shot to the noodle--and dick shots (pelvic girdle) are great for bad guys who wear body armor (almost none of them), but heads move and pelvic shots are just hard on people are moving, so COM is where the comfort is. It's hard to train for quality CNS shots on a static range.
There's a lot of assumption that just because LE is trained, they are trained, and can manage their own physiological mess in those circumstances. I am sure some are, but I would bet a bucket of KFC that the vast majority are not. And armed civilians? Hell naw. Some agencies have seized upon this and have put in some pretty aggressive training in stress inoculation.
That's always a tough one to explain to people. I knew coroner who claimed .25 ACP was good for SD due all the dead guys he saw shot with it.
Straight Shooter
02-12-21, 13:20
Wonder if a shotgun would have been any more effective?
There is an interview on YT, with an old, long retired NYPD Detective or undercover guy I think...who had been in MANY gunfights, nearly all up close & personal.
He used a nice variety of weapons..12G, 44Mag's, .357, full auto's, just everything. I think pretty much everything failed at one point to give one shot, or immediate incapacitation.
If anyone knows who Im talking about, and can link that interview or interviews...it would definately be pertinent to this conversation.
I THINK Maasad Ayoob was the interviewer, not sure.
Coal Dragger
02-12-21, 15:13
That's always a tough one to explain to people. I knew coroner who claimed .25 ACP was good for SD due all the dead guys he saw shot with it.
Yeah I love that logic.
How long did it take the deceased to die? In the mean time how much havoc can an amped up enraged adult male do after being shot with a .25 ACP that wasn’t to the he CNS? My guess is a lot.
I’m still not going to criticize the officer in this shooting, it was justified, and the guy did what he was trained to do. He shot and kept shooting until his assailant was no longer a threat. He might have tried for a shot to the head, and he might have just as easily missed, I don’t know what his skill level is.
As others in the policing business have pointed out the officer was, in their opinion, too late on utilizing lethal force to gain compliance.
Yeah I love that logic.
How long did it take the deceased to die? In the mean time how much havoc can an amped up enraged adult male do after being shot with a .25 ACP that wasn’t to the he CNS? My guess is a lot.
I’m still not going to criticize the officer in this shooting, it was justified, and the guy did what he was trained to do. He shot and kept shooting until his assailant was no longer a threat. He might have tried for a shot to the head, and he might have just as easily missed, I don’t know what his skill level is.
As others in the policing business have pointed out the officer was, in their opinion, too late on utilizing lethal force to gain compliance.
My point to them is, how do you know he didn't beat the person to death who shot them and bleed out a mile down the road? You don't. Death is not relevant in that context.
There is an interview on YT, with an old, long retired NYPD Detective or undercover guy I think...who had been in MANY gunfights, nearly all up close & personal.
He used a nice variety of weapons..12G, 44Mag's, .357, full auto's, just everything. I think pretty much everything failed at one point to give one shot, or immediate incapacitation.
If anyone knows who Im talking about, and can link that interview or interviews...it would definately be pertinent to this conversation.
I THINK Maasad Ayoob was the interviewer, not sure.
You are probably thinking of Jim Cirillo of the famed NYPD Stakeout Squad. He also authored a few books on his experiences.
Averageman
02-12-21, 17:53
You are probably thinking of Jim Cirillo of the famed NYPD Stakeout Squad. He also authored a few books on his experiences.
Yup, that's the guy. For the life of me I couldn't think of his name.
That's always a tough one to explain to people. I knew coroner who claimed .25 ACP was good for SD due all the dead guys he saw shot with it.
I'm sure they all eventually died, but not fast enough for my tastes and they probably did a lot of damage while they were alive. I don't care if you are throwing 10mm or .357 SIG...sometimes some people just don't want to go down and it's that 1 out of 50 that gets you killed.
Coal Dragger
02-12-21, 20:58
Chuck Pressburg has correctly pointed out that gunshot wounds either convince someone to immediately stop doing whatever it is they are doing, or make them stop doing it.
Hits to CNS don’t leave the bad guy with the choice to immediately stop being a bad guy, they force him to stop almost 100% of the time.
Hits outside the CNS just don’t have the same effectiveness, maybe a center mass hit convinces Baddie McBadface to stop his bad activities maybe it doesn’t. People know what guns are, and we’re self aware enough to know the implications of getting shot, that makes the more sane humans more likely to not want to fight anymore after they get shot, so maybe Baddie decides to check out of that fight.
Alternatively he may very well be a dead man walking and fighting, but until he loses consciousness from blood loss he’s still in it to win it.
Any of us who have ever hunted know how far a mortally wounded critter can run after taking a high powered rifle round through the lungs and heart, critters don’t know what a gun is so they just keep running or fighting until they bleed out. I’ve spent hours tracking a mule deer doe I shot through both lungs that decided she wanted to try to die in Wyoming or Nebraska after getting shot, she went a long way. My last hunt I misjudged the distance on an antelope and put a 140gr Barnes TTSX through his spine and upper shoulder blades, he dropped so fast I thought I missed and he had somehow disappeared, my buddy told me “nope I’ll bet you spined him, he dropped like a rag doll” he was right. That poor buck couldn’t run even had he wanted to.
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