View Full Version : Is the Sig P225 as Fragile as the P220?
I've been thinking about keeping a couple of single stack 9mms around and have a P225 that I'm undecided about keeping. The information on P220s having a short life has me considering selling it.
Are they prone to breaking trigger bars, as are the P220s? Are there other parts that are short-lived? It seems the P225 is not shot as much as some other pistols and I don't recall seeing any long-term shooting reports on them.
Thanks for any info.
I can't speak to the durability of the 220 but I had a 225 with approx. 12,000 rds through it without a hitch. Ran that gun for 2 yrs. straight in early the
90's and was very happy with the durability and performance.
We have about 40-50 P225s issued to our officers on our department. Some have been in service since 1990.
They are very robust guns. Several have over 20,000 rounds ( documented) through them. Other thenchanging the recoil springs every 3,000-3,5000 rounds nothing has been done to them.
John Hearne
12-05-08, 12:11
The problems with P220s is with current production guns, not the older ones. Also, the 45 is a harder cartridge on the gun. A P225 should last for damn near forever.
The problems with P220s is with current production guns, not the older ones. Also, the 45 is a harder cartridge on the gun. A P225 should last for damn near forever.
John,
From what I understand, many of the older P220s have problems with parts breakages, including the trigger bar (stamped slide models). There is a very illuminating post on this forum that goes into more detail.
Shadow1198
12-06-08, 06:57
The older P220's can last for a very long time, provided recoil springs and both breech block pins are replaced regularly (every 3-5k rounds is what I hear). Also, I have heard of the older style takedown lever breaking, though the newer "combat" style takedown lever is reinforced and apparently fixes that issue. I have yet to experience a single problem with my p220, except for the trigger bar return spring breaking though that was a simple fix and the gun was well used when I bought it. ;)
I would not call any P220 "fragile." They are, for the most part, reliable guns that can take a decent beating and keep working. They aren't the most durable guns in the world. It's all about priorities. If a gun that will only last you 10,000 rounds meets all of your expected needs, you're good to go.
I've met people who are so enamored of the P220 that they keep two of them at a time, and as soon as one wears out it gets replaced. They're exceptionally reliable and accurate guns, easy to shoot well, and plenty of aftermarket support is available in terms of holsters, sights, etc.
Wouldn't be my personal choice in a .45 these days, but if you know and accept the limitations it's certainly not a bad gun.
As for the P225, I've never understood the fascination. If I was going to get a compact single stack SIG, I'd take the P239 over the P225 in a heartbeat.
varoadking
12-07-08, 09:07
As for the P225, I've never understood the fascination. If I was going to get a compact single stack SIG, I'd take the P239 over the P225 in a heartbeat.
Word...
I thought I was the only one that didn't understand the fascination with the P225, and agree than the P239 is a far better piece...
If I was going to get a compact single stack SIG, I'd take the P239 over the P225 in a heartbeat.
Why is that?
rodinal220
12-07-08, 14:07
I have one P220(stamped) that has 10k on it currently and a back up P220(stamped K-coat) with 1k.I wouldn't call them fragile. You should replace the recoil spring every 3k for maximum service life. I personally replace all the springs in mine every 3k,zero problems so far. As a former SIG armorer I have heard but never seen a cracked frame or broken parts,but that is my personal experience. I'm sure its happened somewhere.
All mechanical objects are subject to failure.I have seen cracked slides and frames on S&W 59-2s,5906s.Ive seen one broken locking block on a Beretta 92F(15K).Ive had to replace mag springs on Glock G20/21s,these mags were always loaded and left in mag pouches for years,brass didn't practice that much:rolleyes:.
Most guns choked due to bad mags,bad ammo,improper cleaning(lack there of) or improper lubrication.We had Remington 870s as old as me and they always worked.Most I ever did to them was new front sights(bead),new mag springs and clean/lube.A shop-vac was handy to suck out gum wrappers,cigarette butts and other debris from the barrels.
The newer P220s with the milled stainless slides/frame rails appear beefier but I haven't taken any measurements.
Most folks dont shoot that much to wear out their guns.The average officer doesn't shoot that much and their weapon should last their career.Every manufacturers is capable of turning out some stinkers or having bad QC on certain parts.Just a fact of life:mad: and IMHO most manufacturers know most folks are not IPSC/IDPA 3-gun types.
Why is that?
You can buy a new P239. You can't get new P225's anymore unless you trust that someone has one ANIB/NOS. Personally, that's a big deal for me. I don't buy used guns.
Because of their vintage, the P225 has a lot of older parts in it which have since been upgraded by SIG for better reliability and/or durability.
The P239 tends to have a better trigger pull, in my experience.
The P239 has a reversible mag catch, which I think is a major plus.
The P239 has a milled one-piece stainless steel slide which is going to be more durable, more corrosion resistant, and require less maintenance than the P225's stamped & pinned slide.
The P225 has a lot of sharp edges, from the hammer to the muzzle, that make it less suitable for concealed carry.
I'm not exactly wed to the P225, but it has a much more ergonomic grip than the P239. It takes $100 to get a grip that's usable to me on the P239 (Nills or Hogues). Add to that, that I don't trust anything that Sig has produced in the last recent years and it's a no-go for me. (I've had to return for repair more modern Sigs by percentage than any other pistol brands I've owned - and it's not been a few. Also sold off several Sigs after finding out about problems in recent designs of particular models. They absolutely lost me as a current customer. I feel about Sig about like I feel about Kimber - I wouldn't walk across the room to look at any of their current offerings.)
Of course, my P225 has Nills and they feel superb. I've never fired it, but if feels good in the hand. I will say this, though. There is an edge along the lower rear right side of the trigger guard that rubs my trigger finger. I'm thinking it won't be comfortable if and when I do fire it.
I'm down to two Sigs - a stamped P220 and the P225. My concern at this point is that I don't think there are parts any more for the stamped models.
RAM Engineer
12-07-08, 15:56
You can buy a new P239. You can't get new P225's anymore unless you trust that someone has one ANIB/NOS. Personally, that's a big deal for me. I don't buy used guns.
Because of their vintage, the P225 has a lot of older parts in it which have since been upgraded by SIG for better reliability and/or durability.
The P239 tends to have a better trigger pull, in my experience.
The P239 has a reversible mag catch, which I think is a major plus.
The P239 has a milled one-piece stainless steel slide which is going to be more durable, more corrosion resistant, and require less maintenance than the P225's stamped & pinned slide.
The P225 has a lot of sharp edges, from the hammer to the muzzle, that make it less suitable for concealed carry.
I agree with everything you said, but I found the 239 to be the most uncomfortable grip that SIG has ever produced. I upgraded from a 225 to a 228 and was very happy. It wasn't noticeably bigger. However this was during the ban-years and mags were tough (expensive) to find then. Nowadays the 229 in 9mm takes the place of the 228, with the same mags.
However, I moved back to Glock 19s after the ban sunset.
RAM -- I'd say almost 50% of the people I meet much prefer the P239 with the rounded Hogue grips instead of the standard square ones that come from the factory. Just an FYI if you or anyone else thinks about picking one up in the future.
You can buy a new P239. You can't get new P225's anymore unless you trust that someone has one ANIB/NOS. Personally, that's a big deal for me. I don't buy used guns.
Because of their vintage, the P225 has a lot of older parts in it which have since been upgraded by SIG for better reliability and/or durability.
The P239 tends to have a better trigger pull, in my experience.
The P239 has a reversible mag catch, which I think is a major plus.
The P239 has a milled one-piece stainless steel slide which is going to be more durable, more corrosion resistant, and require less maintenance than the P225's stamped & pinned slide.
The P225 has a lot of sharp edges, from the hammer to the muzzle, that make it less suitable for concealed carry.
Thanks Todd.
I've seen all of these used 225s on the market, but haven't tried one.
My concern at this point is that I don't think there are parts any more for the stamped models.
Excellent point.
cc
RAM -- I'd say almost 50% of the people I meet much prefer the P239 with the rounded Hogue grips instead of the standard square ones that come from the factory. Just an FYI if you or anyone else thinks about picking one up in the future.
You're not kidding there. Replacing the grips on my former P239 with Nills made it a completely different gun. It went from a pistol that I didn't even like to hold to one that was pleasant to hold.
The Hogues are very similar, just don't have the palm swell - and they're a bit cheaper (close to $100 for checkered exotic hardwood).
The checkered Nills on the P239 and P225 are a master stroke.
IMO the 225 feels radically better in the hand than the 239. That said, the 239 has the better DA trigger, by a wiiiiiide margin. It's not gun specific, either. I've shot a bunch of 225's and they are not as good as the 239, trigger-wise. The P6 is even worse.
I would not worry about a 225 being fragile, though.
What constitutes an "older" P220? What about a West German model picked up in 1993? Any issues with those?
What constitutes an "older" P220? What about a West German model picked up in 1993? Any issues with those?
Just don't shoot +p ammo through it and you'll be fine.
Like any stamped-slide SIG (regardless of caliber or vintage), you should also replace the double roll pins in the slide every 5k rounds.
Did I read somewhere that the trigger bar and trigger return spring often breaks under about 2500 rounds in the stamped P220s?
Thanks.
While I've seen trigger bars break, I'm not aware of any systemic issues.
There are two trigger springs out there for SIG "Classic" line guns. One is a dull grey shot-peened u-shaped spring which was standard for many years; these can and do break and you should probably replace them at least every 10k rounds. The newer spring is shiny and has a curly-q in the middle; they very rarely break but you should still probably replace them at least every 10k rounds.
While I've seen trigger bars break, I'm not aware of any systemic issues.
There are two trigger springs out there for SIG "Classic" line guns. One is a dull grey shot-peened u-shaped spring which was standard for many years; these can and do break and you should probably replace them at least every 10k rounds. The newer spring is shiny and has a curly-q in the middle; they very rarely break but you should still probably replace them at least every 10k rounds.
Ahh - thanks for the good info. I'm assuming the newer trigger spring will go on the older model? It may be a good idea for me to pick up one of the newer springs to have on hand.
Thanks again for the great info.
The new spring also requires the newer grip panels, since the new spring sticks out a bit farther. Using it with the old grip can cause friction or even block the spring from working properly.
YOWZA!!
All of these technical snags are enough to drive a sane man into the 1911 camp! :p
Even with the QC issues at SIG over the past few years, I'd choose a randomly-selected P220 over a randomly-selected 1911 of similar price in a heartbeat. The P220 might need serious work down the road to keep it running, the but 1911 is likely to need work right off the bat to get it working acceptably, especially if JHP ammo is involved.
I was joking. There's no excuse for being in the 1911 camp.:cool:
In my personal experience (I've had my P225 since 1992, and have used it for both carry and competition) the P225 possesses exquisite grip ergonomics, and is exceptionally accurate.
It's only weak point is in the magazine feed lips, which can be susceptable to spreading over time if carried to capacity (over time); this can induce jams, particularly on the first round of a reload with such a magazine.
The cartridge's angle of presentation is modified by the feed lip spread to the point of where the initial cartridge tends to nosedive at the barrel feedramp, which can be difficult and time-consuming to resolve (and, needless to say, unacceptable in a life-threatening situation). Interestingly, once the initial round is chambered, in normal slide reciprocation (when the slide is reciprocated by the firing of a cartridge) the problem does not seem to occur, so slide speed/force is probably a factor in this equation.
The solution that I worked out with a senior gunsmith at SIG-Sauer with whom I've known, worked with and respected for over 14 years was to download my extended carry magazines by 1-2 rounds, which significantly reduces the stress on the feed lips, precluding the spreading from occurring. So, in my carry magazine in the gun I'll have 6-plus-1(chambered) rounds, and in my 2 back-up magazines I'll have 6 rounds in each. For short-term use, I have no compunction about loading the magazines to capacity (but for simplification and commonality for MY use, I generally just only load them to 6 rounds per magazine).
While I no longer frequently carry my P225, I do consider it to be an excellent sidearm, with the caveats as discussed above.
Best, Jon
There's been some great info in this thread.
Good forum.
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