View Full Version : 10th Mountain Shoot House (GoPro)
WillieThom
02-23-21, 21:21
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-10th-mountain-room-clear-unsafe/?fbclid=IwAR0i9xd5_3UM2aYeJYYJW8pEhXDtw8CC3Iyt7xpi-yE4DjLM7uzVEq8qSfI
“A viral video showing soldiers conducting room-clearing training is being called hot garbage, appalling, and a “live-fire Army edition of 1,000 ways to die in a shoot house,” and it’s easy to see why: It’s a complete f***ing tactical trainwreck.”
Man, that's some seriously poor muzzle disciple...everyone gets shot by their own guys. I'm no expert, but are you supposed to just walk/run into the middle of a room where there might be hostiles itching to light you up?
BoringGuy45
02-23-21, 22:20
They are taking HUGE amounts of shit for this; this has gone beyond just a viral video and gone to serious talks about training shortcomings, as well as tearing 10th Mt. leadership for not keeping their guys properly disciplined and safe.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-23-21, 23:50
It was all kind of meh, till I realized they were slinging lead... holy crap. That wasn’t a first run. Someone trained them that way...
ViniVidivici
02-24-21, 02:08
Whichever NCO/OIC certified those idiots for live (after several blank fire iterations, right?!?!) should have HIS ass handed to him in some monumental way.
Holy **** that was cringe-worthy.
Whichever NCO/OIC certified those idiots for live (after several blank fire iterations, right?!?!) should have HIS ass handed to him in some monumental way.
Holy **** that was cringe-worthy.
He gets to sit in the hostage chair during the next dynamic training exercise. I know there has to be chain of command in these situations, but my favorite live fire environment is the "everyone is a RSO" environment and "If you SEE something STOP something." Even instructors goof from time to time and if everyone is watching for even the small things...then the really big ones aren't allowed to exist.
People think as you become MORE special forces and MORE swat that things become more like a action video game and "safety is for all those sucks who need it", the reality is those guys are special because they can do safe handling at high speeds and during dynamic and fluid situations.
I've seen them shoot and they run trigger / muzzle discipline at a level that has to be seen to be believed.
What exactly were the safety officers doing while watching this? I mean I assume there were grown-ups around somewhere.
I get that there might be a quick or partial sweep in a tight place (not that’s it’s ok), but when you’re just holding on your own man...that’s not something you critique later, that has to be corrected on the spot. Immediately.
Sent from 80ms in the future
The 10th Mountain Command Sergeant Major came out and owned it and said it is not the way, will not be the way and is being fixed.
https://mobile.twitter.com/climbtoglory7/status/1363998442884919296
The 10th Mountain Command Sergeant Major came out and owned it and said it is not the way, will not be the way and is being fixed.
https://mobile.twitter.com/climbtoglory7/status/1363998442884919296
Thank God. 10th Mountain used to command enormous respect after Mogadishu and they almost squandered it in a day.
I can see that being used as a "how not to" training video for everyone else.
Thank God. 10th Mountain used to command enormous respect after Mogadishu and they almost squandered it in a day.
I can see that being used as a "how not to" training video for everyone else.
It’s also a lesson in how to deal with social media catastrophe. He owned it, did not down play it at all and is going right after it. Many organizations could learn quite a bit from that.
Whatever happened to tossing a couple of frags through the door/window, wait for them to go off, and then spray the entire room with automatic fire? My father fought in Hue City and said that is exactly how it was done then. But I guess they didn’t watch SWAT movies and play COD back then either and weren’t trying to rescue any hostages.
Whatever happened to tossing a couple of frags through the door/window, wait for them to go off, and then spray the entire room with automatic fire? My father fought in Hue City and said that is exactly how it was done then. But I guess they didn’t watch SWAT movies and play COD back then either and weren’t trying to rescue any hostages.
That was what was done "back in the day" It was actually in the SMART book(that method took into account concrete and stone structures) Obviously, we know there are other obstacles to work with and tactics always evolve, especially with amount of work that our boys have been doing. And yes, wtf ref video
He gets to sit in the hostage chair during the next dynamic training exercise. they don’t do this in conventional Infantry units, and shouldn’t. Hostage rescue isn’t a mission for them, except by accident, or in support of. Maybe some crazy circumstance. Either way, if I were in charge of conventional infantry, I would not sign off on the sort of liability that comes with having a live human in a live shoothouse, even if everyone else is cool with it. The risk is extreme, and we’re talking about dudes that need a crawl walk run workup for every shoothouse. Walk throughs, blanks, live. Think about that for a second. They essentially have to memorize a structure before being signed off to go live.
It’s also a lesson in how to deal with social media catastrophe. He owned it, did not down play it at all and is going right after it. Many organizations could learn quite a bit from that. I agree that that is a positive thing, and I hope more positive things will come of this. I’ll be very interested to find out how they arrived at this point, how widespread the problem is, and how they solve it. Hopefully they solve it for real instead of shutting them out of the MOUT site. I think the CSM plans on solving it for real, though.
Whatever happened to tossing a couple of frags through the door/window, wait for them to go off, and then spray the entire room with automatic fire? My father fought in Hue City and said that is exactly how it was done then. But I guess they didn’t watch SWAT movies and play COD back then either and weren’t trying to rescue any hostages.
Wut? Clearing structures with rifles instead of frags is used for preservation of life and equipment, and collection of intel. Using frags routinely for room clearing is tactically stupid and incredibly unsafe; I don’t care who did it back in Nam. And they are heavy; I’m certainly not carrying a pile of them just to chuck’m indiscriminately and probably end up wounding one or more of my own dudes.
I’m not working with anyone that does that, ever, for any reason. Not as a shooter, and certainly not as a medic.
By the way, grenades designed to produce casualties fall into two categories, based on intended use: offensive and defensive. The M67 fragmentation grenade is designed to be used from behind cover, and is best used for defending, because the defender dictates the available cover in a deliberately set up position. The Mk3 grenade, hand, offensive, aka concussion grenade does not have a casing designed to produce fragmentation, although missiles from the ground are the expectation. It produces more overpressure than a M67 and 10/10 is the better choice for a indiscriminate casualty-producing device in MOUT because of reduced concern about wall penetration. They are much more effective indoors than out for producing casualties, which very slightly mitigates the risk if (when) it gets bounced or kicked back. In my opinion, it is a better choice to carry in general, and I always carried one of those and a couple mini-frags. Of course, most units don’t seem to know offensive grenades exists, and might even confuse them with flashbangs or other diversion devices.
That was what was done "back in the day" It was actually in the SMART book(that method took into account concrete and stone structures) Obviously, we know there are other obstacles to work with and tactics always evolve, especially with amount of work that our boys have been doing. And yes, wtf ref video
When I was in that was still a way if you know with full certainty the only occupants were booger-eaters. And it works...until that grenade hits something and comes rolling back out of the door. But if there is just 1% that there is not a hostile/combatant, then room clearing it is.
Given the current political situation and the increasing likelihood of the US military being sent against Americans I find the fact that this type of training is taking place troubling. But I suspect the ROE's for deplorables will revert back to the grenade sweep with full auto method anyway.
Before I watched the video I thought "Oh God I hope this isn't another deal where the video is out of context of the training and now all the youtube safety nazis that have never trained are going crazy..." Cause 90% of the time that's what it is.
THIS IS NOT.
Holy frickin frejoles!
"Break up!" seems to not be taught?
"#1 man is always right" - or is he? WTFF over?
No sound on the video so hoping it was UTM but having been shot a time or seventy with UTM at close range, that's not fun either. Blue on blue is real.
If nothing else this video should be a wake up call to those that think they are going to throw together an ad hoc group of neighbors or guys they know that have ARs and "handle things" - blue on blue is real.
WillieThom
02-24-21, 08:49
Whatever happened to tossing a couple of frags through the door/window, wait for them to go off, and then spray the entire room with automatic fire? My father fought in Hue City and said that is exactly how it was done then. But I guess they didn’t watch SWAT movies and play COD back then either and weren’t trying to rescue any hostages.
Look up Linda Norgrove.
Given the current political situation and the increasing likelihood of the US military being sent against Americans I find the fact that this type of training is taking place troubling. But I suspect the ROE's for deplorables will revert back to the grenade sweep with full auto method anyway.
Every war/conflict we've been in, every single one, has had urban operations and building clearing. It is a necessary skill set. Why would you find it troubling?
https://maxvelocitytactical.com/tactical-classes/h-e-a-t-cqb/
This is the way....
I've done a ton of CQB training over the last 3 decades, this is the best class for working with others in a CQB setting. I've done 4 or 5 iterations of it and will do it again as time permits.
Given the current political situation and the increasing likelihood of the US military being sent against Americans I find the fact that this type of training is taking place troubling. But I suspect the ROE's for deplorables will revert back to the grenade sweep with full auto method anyway.
WTF does training for urban operations have to do with anything political? Its been a thing for many years. Enter and Clear a Room, and the required movements to get to that point, are natural extensions of other Battle Drills, which are the basic elements of surviving contact with the enemy. See also: Enter and Clear a Trench, Squad Attack, RTC, etc.
In some circles, combat in “Megacities” is the future of ground combat, so its not something the Army is just going to let go of.
I saw that vid on FB. Not my lane, but seemed the camera operator the worse of the bunch, vid was scary to watch as I kept wondering if it ended badly. Let out a big breath when it ended without any injuries.
Some people in this thread have expertise in this. Some do not. This is a teachable topic, so if you don’t have personal experience (or trained to proficiency with someone that does) on this topic, pump your brakes and ask specific questions. This is why all the SMEs disappeared, and there are at least two active members here with experience both in CQB, and the units being used as examples, that are notably absent from this discussion, and I can promise that they know it exists.
Try not to take this as a personal insult, as that is not my intent. Also, note that I’m not going to just drag that unit’s name through the mud. There’s a reason for that.
https://maxvelocitytactical.com/tactical-classes/h-e-a-t-cqb/
This is the way....
I've done a ton of CQB training over the last 3 decades, this is the best class for working with others in a CQB setting. I've done 4 or 5 iterations of it and will do it again as time permits.
My heyday was early-90s through early-2000s, and in that time we saw so many iterations and evolution of CQB (jn a good way). As effed up as that video is--and it is--a large part of me is "there but for the grace of God go I...."
I am glad the video is there, may it serve as a catalyst for reform and better training. But that doesn't mean those guys--all of them--do not deserve to be hammered.
I have not heard of MVT, but it's because of places like that that evolution keeps the skill set alive and topical.
That shoot house almost became a smokehouse. Lessons to be learned here for sure.
ViniVidivici
02-24-21, 12:28
Given the current political situation and the increasing likelihood of the US military being sent against Americans I find the fact that this type of training is taking place troubling. But I suspect the ROE's for deplorables will revert back to the grenade sweep with full auto method anyway.
Negative, you're WAY off track. MOUT/CQB has been a thing for decades. I did this shit, for the first time, last century.
What's being discussed here has nothing to do with the current oligarchy sending goons after us.
I just want to know why none of the instructors/observers stopped it.
Or where the instructor/observers were...
Or why none of the participants noticed what they themselves were doing and fixed it along the way.
I mean, I don't know, all that combined that just seems... odd, to me. Like I'm missing some sort of further context.
Once upon a time I did a little CQB training on the civ side. There were some unsafe moments because myself and the other participants were hardly the cream of the crop, and perhaps the material was being advanced a little to quickly for our skill level. But nothing even approaching this level of 'yikes' happened, and would surely have resulted in an immediate "STOP!" from the instructor, and a swift exit from the range if wholesale carelessness had ensued or persisted. And we all KNEW when we f***ed up, often without having to be reamed for it.
Which is why this video just seems like somethings missing...
Some people in this thread have expertise in this. Some do not. This is a teachable topic, so if you don’t have personal experience (or trained to proficiency with someone that does) on this topic, pump your brakes and ask specific questions. This is why all the SMEs disappeared, and there are at least two active members here with experience both in CQB, and the units being used as examples, that are notably absent from this discussion, and I can promise that they know it exists.
Try not to take this as a personal insult, as that is not my intent. Also, note that I’m not going to just drag that unit’s name through the mud. There’s a reason for that.
What 1168 said.
Adding... It's also okay to not crap politics into every thread on the board. Feel free to pass on that.
Ok...if it's a teachable vid, then was it poor muzzle disciple? Back to my original question...was this the proper way to enter a room with possible hostile? Are there other things to learn from it?
they don’t do this in conventional Infantry units, and shouldn’t. Hostage rescue isn’t a mission for them, except by accident, or in support of. Maybe some crazy circumstance. Either way, if I were in charge of conventional infantry, I would not sign off on the sort of liability that comes with having a live human in a live shoothouse, even if everyone else is cool with it. The risk is extreme, and we’re talking about dudes that need a crawl walk run workup for every shoothouse. Walk throughs, blanks, live. Think about that for a second. They essentially have to memorize a structure before being signed off to go live.
It was a joke. I think even the SAS has 100% abandoned the practice after losing a couple officers.
I have to ask was this actual 10th members or some they are training and taking along to learn ? or are they the reserve ones brushing up more learning etc...
was this a OK lets see what we need to learn vid or seasoned folks or brand new ?
trying to ask questions instead :)
had a buddy in intelligence and he was airborne at one time moved into intelligence but said lots of times folks bring along and train with folks who are not part of the unit ?
he joked lots of idiots along for the ride many times with groups that do not know what is going on or in training and go through the steps
my buddy does joke about "military intelligence" being the biggest oxymoron though :)
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-24-21, 19:04
It’s the live ammo, to me, that’s the issue. Day 1, run 1 running ‘pew,pew’; that’s fine. Run the video, smack some helmets, run 2 like a champ. They were running ‘bang,bang’.
Voodoochild
02-24-21, 20:21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orOcVsN6vDo
MEH !!!
The whole nation is committing suicide !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orOcVsN6vDo
Glad he pointed out the guys on the catwalks who one would assume were in control of everything. I don't want to bad talk any members of the military but if the original video had been from civies it would absolutely be shredded by everyone.
The most shocking thing to me is that it was (apparently) 10th Mountain who should be so experienced that nothing like this even comes close to happening and not even one guy gets flagged let alone 90% of everyone involved in the exercise.
Glad the video came to light so it can get fixed, I'd hate to think this sort of thing would continue. Also a really good opportunity to make sure everyone knows "this base level of room movement." That video was also a pretty nice and objective breakdown without a lot of crap talking.
It's been 15 years since I did any military MOUT stuff. Ive been doing LE urban training since then which is a bit different but has many of the same ideas.
1. Fragging rooms and spraying them down wasn't a thing back in the early GWOT era and the old guys then (Desert Storm, Mogadishu, Panama, etc... vets) didnt talk about it either. Fragging rooms you suspect guys are in isnt a bad idea. Running inside directly after or staying at the breach can be. Frag goes through walls and bounces off walls it doesnt. I learned this lesson well in 2003 when we tried to breach a compound gate with a M203. We were all behind cover in the courtyard but the concrete walls just became a bouncehouse for the fragments. The one 203 round fragged literally everyone in my fireteam. Luckily they were minor wounds with only one requiring stitches from the medic. The VAST VAST majority of MOUT warfare you dont know which exact buildings the enemy are actually in or how many. So this requires clearing multiple buildings and even whole city blocks. You'll run out of ammo and frags really quick and will probably have blown up and shot up empty rooms. Not to mention now you are inducing unneeded reloads in the middle of a structure clearing. Great time for the enemy to pop out a doorway and start sling rounds at you.
2. MOUT training has been a thing since WW2. Lots of urban warfare in Europe. Lots of urban warfare in Vietnam. Lots of urban warfare in Afghanistan. And Id bet money the majority of fighting in Iraq was urban as well.
I'm still interested in how/why that was put out for public viewing. Do we know how/why that is out in the first place? Obviously it was not put out to demonstrate what HSLD CQB they are. Even we plebs without formal training in that arena like me are "WTF?" when viewing it. Obviously, no one from the training cadre said "lets put that online as it's a good demo of capabilities" or such. Unless I missed it, I'm curious as how that appeared online for public viewing as much as I'm dismayed by what was on it. Someone with a grudge or other, like someone who wanted to bring the safety issues to light because they were not being addressed?
Or just as simple as the guy with the GoPro deciding it would be cool to put online without asking ?
I'm still interested in how/why that was put out for public viewing. Do we know how/why that is out in the first place? Obviously it was not put out to demonstrate what HSLD CQB they are. Even we plebs without formal training in that arena like me are "WTF?" when viewing it. Obviously, no one from the training cadre said "lets put that online as it's a good demo of capabilities" or such. Unless I missed it, I'm curious as how that appeared online for public viewing as much as I'm dismayed by what was on it. Someone with a grudge or other, like someone who wanted to bring the safety issues to light because they were not being addressed?
Or just as simple as the guy with the GoPro deciding it would be cool to put online without asking ?
Actually, I think that IS exactly what happened...or so I have read on various other forums.
Actually, I think that IS exactly what happened...or so I have read on various other forums.
Which scenario?
Averageman
02-26-21, 17:53
It's been 15 years since I did any military MOUT stuff. Ive been doing LE urban training since then which is a bit different but has many of the same ideas.
1. Fragging rooms and spraying them down wasn't a thing back in the early GWOT era and the old guys then (Desert Storm, Mogadishu, Panama, etc... vets) didnt talk about it either. Fragging rooms you suspect guys are in isnt a bad idea. Running inside directly after or staying at the breach can be. Frag goes through walls and bounces off walls it doesnt. I learned this lesson well in 2003 when we tried to breach a compound gate with a M203. We were all behind cover in the courtyard but the concrete walls just became a bouncehouse for the fragments. The one 203 round fragged literally everyone in my fireteam. Luckily they were minor wounds with only one requiring stitches from the medic. The VAST VAST majority of MOUT warfare you dont know which exact buildings the enemy are actually in or how many. So this requires clearing multiple buildings and even whole city blocks. You'll run out of ammo and frags really quick and will probably have blown up and shot up empty rooms. Not to mention now you are inducing unneeded reloads in the middle of a structure clearing. Great time for the enemy to pop out a doorway and start sling rounds at you.
2. MOUT training has been a thing since WW2. Lots of urban warfare in Europe. Lots of urban warfare in Vietnam. Lots of urban warfare in Afghanistan. And Id bet money the majority of fighting in Iraq was urban as well.
I worked hand in glove with Mech Infantry in Desert Storm and we ended the whole thing with some MOUT.
As a Tanker, on the approach was recon by fire and maintain a speed at which the Infantry can still use us for cover.
Corners were where our team work excelled. The corner guy takes a peek and signals, you go to tactical idle and jump in to the street guns toward objective. The corner guy is key here, you either go in guns blazing or slip across quietly.
That hand set on the back of the Abrams is a blessing in these cases, but the grunts never put it back in the box, so another spaghetti cord is necessary.
The key here is keeping speed and observation/security so travelling in a group is important.
No matter what maintain the discipline and stay together.
The most shocking thing to me is that it was (apparently) 10th Mountain who should be so experienced that nothing like this even comes close to happening and not even one guy gets flagged let alone 90% of everyone involved in the exercise.
It is scary how quick that experience fades away because people pcs, get promoted or get out.
We learned that when you are shooting at a adobe hut like cinder black mansion, the best place for you to receive a HEAT round was right on the door step, otherwise it would fly through the building and explode outside
Which scenario?
It was posted to show how HSLD they were..
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-10th-mountain-room-clear-unsafe/?fbclid=IwAR0i9xd5_3UM2aYeJYYJW8pEhXDtw8CC3Iyt7xpi-yE4DjLM7uzVEq8qSfI
“A viral video showing soldiers conducting room-clearing training is being called hot garbage, appalling, and a “live-fire Army edition of 1,000 ways to die in a shoot house,” and it’s easy to see why: It’s a complete f***ing tactical trainwreck.”
There is so much "Youre doing it wrong" in that video I dont know where to start.
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