View Full Version : Question for soldiers: why doesn't the .mil let you carry a personal pistol?
In WW2 my Dad carried a pistol he brought with him when he was drafted. Carried it all the way to England and served in the Army Air Corps.
In Vietnam you could carry your own as well. I know a guy who wasn't old enough to buy one, so his parents procured a Colt Gold Cup .45 and he carried that in country. I know another guy who was a LERP. Carried a PPK in his pocket. It came in handy one evening when the fight started up close.
Now soldiers returning from the middle east tell me that such is strictly forbidden.
Why is that?
There are risks involved with allowing soldiers to carry personal firearms and no advantage to be gained.
Doesn't mean I like it.
Andy
Mostly standardization.
And could you imagine the war in Iraq if if 65% of the guys were running XDs and Judges. It's bad enough when a military vendor drops something substandard in the supply chain like those Checkmate M9 magazines that malf'd every chance they got. If guys could bring whatever they wanted you'd see some stupid shit with some Tapco accessories.
I question the wisdom of carrying a Gold Cup in Nam. It's an excellent 1911, just not in Vietnam.
Lots of guys who weren't issued handguns because they had a Garand liked to get handguns from home or from the enemy because there were times when you could probably get a handgun up and running faster, like when you are sleeping.
We gave those vets a lot of discretion and they generally didn't abuse it, but there were accidents and incidents from time to time.
PracticalRifleman
02-25-21, 07:05
Mostly standardization.
And could you imagine the war in Iraq if if 65% of the guys were running XDs and Judges. It's bad enough when a military vendor drops something substandard in the supply chain like those Checkmate M9 magazines that malf'd every chance they got. If guys could bring whatever they wanted you'd see some stupid shit with some Tapco accessories.
I question the wisdom of carrying a Gold Cup in Nam. It's an excellent 1911, just not in Vietnam.
Lots of guys who weren't issued handguns because they had a Garand liked to get handguns from home or from the enemy because there were times when you could probably get a handgun up and running faster, like when you are sleeping.
We gave those vets a lot of discretion and they generally didn't abuse it, but there were accidents and incidents from time to time.
Standardization? You mean standardizing on people not carrying pistols? Seems very few enlisted were issued a sidearm in our most recent conflicts outside of super delta rangersoc seals. I have heard it is changing with the M17/M18. It isn’t a matter of carrying an issued gun vs your personal gun.
I own the revolver my great great uncle carried in WWI. An “issued” sidearm wasn’t an option.
I also own the pistol my great uncle carried in WWII. He didn’t take it overseas with him, but he did pick it up off a dead NAZI, and carried it through the rest of the war. He used it in the Battle of the Bulge. An issued sidearm was never offered to him either.
My guess is the reason they are no longer allowed to is something happened once with a negative outcome and changed it for everybody. Or perhaps it’s liability? I know a sniper who was issued a Remington 700 that just didn’t shoot the issued ammo well and he had little confidence in it. He had his reloading kit shipped to him and worked up a better load and used that ammo on duty. He said if he would have been caught doing so, it would have landed him in deep.
But I do recall in Chris Kyle’s book he does mention not liking his issued pistol and carrying personally owned pistols. Perhaps in the more elite units there is more wiggle room.
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Uniformity - and standardization. Two main reasons the Army doesn't let you carry your own weapon. Plus control and safety. The old saying in the Army fits this:
"If you're doing something, and everyone else is doing something else.....you're wrong"
That being said, for Operation Urgent Fury (Grenada Invasion), the 160th was in a building phase, and they didn't have enough sidearms to hand out to everyone. Most pilots were being issued some Air Force vintage Smith & Wesson Model 15 revolvers in .38 special. This young 23 year old 1LT was given special dispensation to bring my 1982 manufactured Smith & Wesson Model 66 (4 inch barrel) and I took my own ammo (125 grain hollow point .357) in a government issue shoulder holster. Only time in 22 years I carried my own weapon.
But I do recall in Chris Kyle’s book he does mention not liking his issued pistol and carrying personally owned pistols. Perhaps in the more elite units there is more wiggle room.
There really isn't (wiggle room) except for DEVGRU/ST6 and Delta/CAG/whatever they like to be called today. Now they do have choices in so far as modifying the weapon (trigger, sights, etc.). My best friend was a SEAL (now retired), he had asked to carry a Glock and he was shot down (no pun intended) pretty fast. Ironic that they replaced the SIGs with Glocks after he retired.
I think handguns are issued much more widely in the GWOT era than previous conflicts. From I understand from talking to my Dad and Granddad, Vietnam and WW2 vets respectively, the average Joe never saw a handgun. In OIF just about everyone had an M9--part of that was due to vehicle ops and the urban environment where a pistol made sense, and partly because carrying a handgun was a status symbol that resonated with Iraqi's in the immediate post Saddam years.
In my experience the military is not exactly fond of personal weapons. Military bases have been some of the biggest "gun free zones" in the US. Only after incidents like Ft Hood did the military get anything along the lines of concealed carry on CONUS bases. There's some good reason for this, and some just risk aversion. But from what I've seen, admittedly as an Air Force dude, is that there have been plenty of M9s go go around so there really isn't a compelling reason to let folks carry their own handguns.
One thing I have seen that makes a lot of sense is that on most deployments, weapons and their associated serial numbers are tied to either an individual or a unit. So if a weapon shows up somewhere it shouldn't be, it's fairly easy to track down. Some of our host nations also have very, very strict ideas about firearms, so keeping weapons as strictly military issued helps abide by local policies to keep up diplomacy. In some places even having empty magazines in your gear could get you jacked up by customs--I can't imagine how they'd react to guys rolling around with personally owned firearms.
I think handguns are issued much more widely in the GWOT era than previous conflicts. From I understand from talking to my Dad and Granddad, Vietnam and WW2 vets respectively, the average Joe never saw a handgun. In OIF just about everyone had an M9--part of that was due to vehicle ops and the urban environment where a pistol made sense, and partly because carrying a handgun was a status symbol that resonated with Iraqi's in the immediate post Saddam years. .
Yes, all very true. Also, a large amount of personnel in both Iraq and Afghan never left the wire, so if possible left their rifles and carbines in the armory to make life easier! I knew people that did a whole 7 month tour and never saw their primary weapon till the cleaning before turn in for retrograde!
As said above, main reason is uniformity. The second part of that is common parts. When I had a Glock, spare parts were a pain to get. Same thing with Magazines and ammo. If joe snuffy was carrying a .32 caliber revolver then where the hell will he get ammo? If he runs out in a firefight, he is not going to get any from me.
I knew a SEAL I went to SOCM with and he called me at one time to see if I could get SCAR 308 mags as he only had 4 and they couldn't ifind more. At one pointI had a Glock 26. I had 2 G26 mags that I bought and the rest of the mags were G19 mags because that is all we had in the inventory.
There is also the reality that very few people actually have hand guns in the MIL (besides SOF). It is mostly officers and a very few enlisted people. Mostly like MPs and Medics and such.
Most MIL, no matter the branch, will never even have a pistol. They are just not many of them. I have a friend that never even saw a pistol when he was in, let alone had to use or qualify with one. Now that he is out he thinks that the M9 is awesome, because he only saw other have them and it was kind of a status symbol...... Even though the M9 sucks and those that CAN would have a Glock, or even a Sig for that matter.
There really isn't (wiggle room) except for DEVGRU/ST6 and Delta/CAG/whatever they like to be called today. Now they do have choices in so far as modifying the weapon (trigger, sights, etc.). My best friend was a SEAL (now retired), he had asked to carry a Glock and he was shot down (no pun intended) pretty fast. Ironic that they replaced the SIGs with Glocks after he retired.
^^^This. I was a Marine FAP'd out be a range coach when I was attached to the MEU. We had a good amount of infantry guys who would have their own EOtech's or Aimpoints on their M4/M16's and for the range they would have to swap them out for RCO's (Acogs) or irons. They weren't allowed to have them on their rifles, for my stage which was 100-500 yard shooting and even on day 4, the "tactical" shooting portion of the range qualification. Knowing full well that they were going down range with their personal sights on their rifles, so we didn't really train them for what they were actually using.
The fact is that the Military (and I've heard this for the Army as well) doesn't really teach you to shoot for anything more than for the qualification you trying to obtain. They get you to put rounds down range, but actual application is better learned on a unit or MOS basis.
When it comes to a personal firearm the mindset of the branch is, "we can't control it, and haven't trained the personnel on it, therefore they shouldn't have it", this goes with all things. When I was stationed on Miramar a guy from my unit dumped his sport bike right in front of the base commanders car one evening, over the next week, all personnel had to register their motorcycles with their units and show California motor vehicle training certificates before being able to ride them. Overnight some Marines couldn't get on base if all they owned was a motorcycle and had to get rides from other people in their units.
1- Administrative control of weapons.
2- Logistical support
3- Pvt. Schmuckatelli
Grand58742
02-25-21, 11:05
When it comes to a personal firearm the mindset of the branch is, "we can't control it, and haven't trained the personnel on it, therefore they shouldn't have it", this goes with all things.
Even things like attachments and slings as well. I remember some arms room people straight freaking out because I put on a 2 point sling on my issued M4 that replaced the total crap 3 point. Epic meltdown. Which is why I ended up buying a Larue QD mount for a white light since they refused to issue them at the time. Just took it off after every shift and tossed it in my bag.
However, I can kinda understand the "why" they don't like having non-issue stuff on carbines and rifles. Not necessarily the Aimpoint/EOTech thing you spoke of, but you know some broke E-2 is going to show up with a whole bunch of Tapco's and Thermold's finest for their rifle and wonder WTF to do when the crap breaks.
3- Pvt. Schmuckatelli
This is 99% of the reason right here.......:lol:
On base there are other issues, especially pertaining to the dudes in barracks. I mean, every weekend it's a bacchanal and perpetual game of alcohol-induced one-upsmanship (hey, watch me as I swan dive into a kiddie pool from the third deck). I can see why they'd want to control access to guns.
Grand58742
02-25-21, 11:12
On base there are other issues, especially pertaining to the dudes in barracks. I mean, every weekend it's a bacchanal and perpetual game of alcohol-induced one-upsmanship (hey, watch me as I swan dive into a kiddie pool from the third deck). I can see why they'd want to control access to guns.
Well, I will say this. Early on in my career, some of the dorm rooms had more firearms in them than some of the arms storage on base. Then the Clinton gun ban took effect and the powers that be started cracking down on it over time. But I do recall it being the Wild West at one point.
When my cousin deployed in Operation Desert Storm as a 2nd Lieutenant in charge of a couple of Bradley Fighting Vehicles, he took his personally owned Glock 17 with him. I dunno the logistics of it, I dunno the legality of it etc....but he has numerous pictures of him with it shooting in the Desert etc.....He did see combat. His Bradleys engaged a T62 and blew the shit out of it with a Tow Missile I believe....
When my cousin deployed in Operation Desert Storm as a 2nd Lieutenant in charge of a couple of Bradley Fighting Vehicles, he took his personally owned Glock 17 with him. I dunno the logistics of it, I dunno the legality of it etc....but he has numerous pictures of him with it shooting in the Desert etc.....He did see combat. His Bradleys engaged a T62 and blew the shit out of it with a Tow Missile I believe....
I am not saying these things do not happen, but definitely illegal lol....
3- Pvt. Schmuckatelli
That MF'er still owes me $45 for ribbon placement at PX
Even things like attachments and slings as well. I remember some arms room people straight freaking out because I put on a 2 point sling on my issued M4 that replaced the total crap 3 point. Epic meltdown. Which is why I ended up buying a Larue QD mount for a white light since they refused to issue them at the time. Just took it off after every shift and tossed it in my bag.
However, I can kinda understand the "why" they don't like having non-issue stuff on carbines and rifles. Not necessarily the Aimpoint/EOTech thing you spoke of, but you know some broke E-2 is going to show up with a whole bunch of Tapco's and Thermold's finest for their rifle and wonder WTF to do when the crap breaks.
Yeah, I remember a good amount of guys buying the ladder rail panels from ergo or someone else and getting reamed because they didn't have the knights panels, while at the same time there was an officer who didn't have a grip pod on his M4, so he purchased his own (tapco or something else) that was budget and we had him take if off the rifle as the thing wobbled so much we weren't sure how to correct his shooting.
Averageman
02-25-21, 12:08
I probably saw 5 Negligent Discharges in my 21 years. Those were all issued weapons that the Army had paperwork and chain of custody with clear lines of who had what, when it was signed out and who is responsible for that weapon.
Now think about that a minute.
Without all of that paperwork and chain of custody what happens when there is a negligent discharge, stolen weapon, or a murder?
You don't want to know how bad this can go off the rails.
Not everybody in the military is a "Gun Guy" or has both feet on the trail, or is even a "Good Person."
That MF'er still owes me $45 for ribbon placement at PX
He stole some TA-50 from me to clear CIF when he got kicked out of the Army. :jester:
Not everybody in the military is a "Gun Guy" or has both feet on the trail, or is even a "Good Person."
They call Fort Hood, "The HOOD" for a reason....... Lots of crime without allowing firearms in the barracks.
Grand58742
02-25-21, 12:51
He stole some TA-50 from me to clear CIF when he got kicked out of the Army. :jester:
I used to call that person "Airman They" or "Sergeant They."
As in:
"They told me it was okay to do this."
"They said I didn't need to turn my stuff in."
"They said we were getting forward deployed for R&R cruise ship security in the Caribbean."
I really wanted to kick They's ass several times in my career.
Averageman
02-25-21, 13:18
They call Fort Hood, "The HOOD" for a reason....... Lots of crime without allowing firearms in the barracks.
One of my last acts before going to a training unit to retire; I've got an E-6 who's way out of control.
He flipped a tank, nearly killing one of the crewman. I said right there, that guy aint right. His wife leaves him, he takes up with a deployed Soldiers wife. They go on a bender and he shoots here three times with a 30-30 and kills her.
One of my last acts before going to a training unit to retire; I've got an E-6 who's way out of control.
He flipped a tank, nearly killing one of the crewman. I said right there, that guy aint right. His wife leaves him, he takes up with a deployed Soldiers wife. They go on a bender and he shoots here three times with a 30-30 and kills her.
Sounds like the Norm......
In WW2 my Dad carried a pistol he brought with him when he was drafted. Carried it all the way to England and served in the Army Air Corps.
In Vietnam you could carry your own as well. I know a guy who wasn't old enough to buy one, so his parents procured a Colt Gold Cup .45 and he carried that in country. I know another guy who was a LERP. Carried a PPK in his pocket. It came in handy one evening when the fight started up close.
Now soldiers returning from the middle east tell me that such is strictly forbidden.
Why is that?
They weren’t supposed to even back then. And I have known people that have but the legal risks aren’t worth it.
I used to call that person "Airman They" or "Sergeant They."
As in:
"They told me it was okay to do this."
"They said I didn't need to turn my stuff in."
"They said we were getting forward deployed for R&R cruise ship security in the Caribbean."
I really wanted to kick They's ass several times in my career.
I hate “they”. I always ask who “they” is.
PracticalRifleman
02-25-21, 16:24
I think handguns are issued much more widely in the GWOT era than previous conflicts.
I think later in GWOT that may be true, but early on? I dunno. I know many guys who never touched a sidearm...dates of service from 2002 all the way to 2012. My best friend and business partner was given a SAM-R with a Leupold 2.5-8x and that was it for his two tours. He said the first time he handled a sidearm was training at MARSOC.
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Averageman
02-25-21, 16:36
I was a maintenance contractor, we were not to have an issued weapon.
Oddly enough on my recovery missions there was always an extra.
I think handguns are issued much more widely in the GWOT era than previous conflicts.
I have read a few claims of WWI planning to have almost every soldier issued a sidearm. Lots of Model 1911 production along with supplemental S&W/Colt 1917 production during the relatively short US involvement in the war.
They weren’t supposed to even back then. And I have known people that have but the legal risks aren’t worth it.
Had an uncle (father actually to the cousin in Desert Storm mentioned earlier) who was some kind of security policeman in Vietnam. I don't think MP...not sure, he stood guard duty at some kind of US facility in Saigon.
They were issued Smith and Wesson .38s, with 130 grain fmj ammo. Being a gun guy, he knew what a shit option that was -even back then...
He wrote my dad about it...Dad went and bought him a Smith Wesson Model 58 .41 magnum and sent it with several boxes of ammo to him....From 5 feet away, nobody could tell it wasn't his issued weapon... He said it was awfully comforting during the TET offensive...
Considering the millions of men who have served in our military conflicts I can pretty much guarantee two things. 1- Every law, rule, guideline, or plain old general principle has been broken more times than anyone can count. Sometimes for the good, sometimes bad, and all flavors in between.
2- You don't wanna be the guy who gets to be the example.
Try to follow the rules. If you can't follow the rules try not to get caught. Lastly, never throw water balloons at the battalion area while SPIE rigging. That is the extent of my pertinent advice.
HardToHandle
02-25-21, 19:21
My Dad, a three-decade soldier, started taking our BB pistols to annual training when we were kids -the Crossman BB/dart guns that looked like 1911s. Said they looked close enough at a distance that no one bothered you and you did not have worry about accountability.
In Iraq, he had no issues handling an M9, the real kind. He may have seriously enjoyed smuggling bayonets out of Iraq too.
My own experience with Uncle Sugar is weapons cleaning and weapons accountability are taken to wholly inappropriate and generally counterproductive lengths. That said, everyone pictures at least guy that proves why the rules exist.
Who would want a pistol in a team gunfight?
Outside of a few special units, pistols are only good for killing clearing barrels and for the machine gunner in light infantry.
WillieThom
02-26-21, 00:54
But I do recall in Chris Kyle’s book he does mention not liking his issued pistol and carrying personally owned pistols. Perhaps in the more elite units there is more wiggle room.
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I recall reading this, as well, so perhaps he did carry his personal sidearm. I believe he said it was a Springfield 1911 in his book. But we also have to remember that he was capable of spinning quite a yarn, depending on who you ask...
Who would want a pistol in a team gunfight?
Outside of a few special units, pistols are only good for killing clearing barrels and for the machine gunner in light infantry.
Pistols are appropriate for many soldiers in support units and the TOEs support it. Unfortunately, pistols are both status symbols and easier to carry, so every PSG and WO in the AVIM I deployed with carried a pistol and the Technical Inspectors carried M-4s.
I carried a M9 out and about in Bosnia/Croatia because the threat was low but not low enough to drive around unarmed.
As an example of how risk conscious the U.S. Army is, they moved in 3 vehicle convoys minumum wearing body armor and carrying rifles. NATO drove around in single cars and were only required to be armed if we left Sarajevo.
Andy
I think later in GWOT that may be true, but early on? I dunno. I know many guys who never touched a sidearm...dates of service from 2002 all the way to 2012. My best friend and business partner was given a SAM-R with a Leupold 2.5-8x and that was it for his two tours. He said the first time he handled a sidearm was training at MARSOC.
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Was he a CSO ("Operator", and God I hate that term), or a SOCSS/SOCS (support guy)?
Just curious. "Back in the day" before MARSOC almost all, but not all, recon Marines were infantry and had a pretty good familiarity with the sidearm, and in recon we ALL had pistols MEU(SOC) 1911s.
As a corpsman the pistol was my TO&E gun, then it was the M4 and the M9/1911. I also went to DMC and carried a SAM-R. My fave gun, ever.
As I understand MARSOC is like SF and recruits from all MOSs, so it is conceivable you can get a POG through the course who never, ever handled a pistol.
Had an uncle (father actually to the cousin in Desert Storm mentioned earlier) who was some kind of security policeman in Vietnam. I don't think MP...not sure, he stood guard duty at some kind of US facility in Saigon.
They were issued Smith and Wesson .38s, with 130 grain fmj ammo. Being a gun guy, he knew what a shit option that was -even back then...
He wrote my dad about it...Dad went and bought him a Smith Wesson Model 58 .41 magnum and sent it with several boxes of ammo to him....From 5 feet away, nobody could tell it wasn't his issued weapon... He said it was awfully comforting during the TET offensive...
Doesn’t mean he was “supposed” to do that. I know guys that did the same thing with M9s and Mossberg 500/Remington 870s. Everyone either knew and looked the other way or didn’t suspect a thing because they were identical to issued weapons. Optic and accessories leniency was better because back in the early GWOT days we didn’t have shit.
Who would want a pistol in a team gunfight?
Outside of a few special units, pistols are only good for killing clearing barrels and for the machine gunner in light infantry.I would! It not the main gun but it's small and light enough that why not?
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PracticalRifleman
02-26-21, 08:35
Doesn’t mean he was “supposed” to do that. I know guys that did the same thing with M9s and Mossberg 500/Remington 870s. Everyone either knew and looked the other way or didn’t suspect a thing because they were identical to issued weapons. Optic and accessories leniency was better because back in the early GWOT days we didn’t have shit.
I remember seeing some footage from early in with guys with cheap NC Star scopes on their rifles. It amazed me.
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Averageman
02-26-21, 10:18
I know a guy who decided to try and smuggle an Iraqi Army M9. It was pretty pimped out, I see the attraction, but it ended his career right then and there.
I know a guy who decided to try and smuggle an Iraqi Army M9. It was pretty pimped out, I see the attraction, but it ended his career right then and there.
A good friend on mine was SF in the mid-80s, before the wall fell, and was doing FID training in a country that had ties with the Warsaw Pact countries. He had his Bravo bring back an old-school CZ75 for inclusion in the Bravo course, then kept it. When he was medically DC'd, he took it with him. That was definitely an anomaly. Most people get hanged for that kind of thing (well, metaphorically).
Grand58742
02-26-21, 11:14
A good friend on mine was SF in the mid-80s, before the wall fell, and was doing FID training in a country that had ties with the Warsaw Pact countries. He had his Bravo bring back an old-school CZ75 for inclusion in the Bravo course, then kept it. When he was medically DC'd, he took it with him. That was definitely an anomaly. Most people get hanged for that kind of thing (well, metaphorically).
You're be shocked at how many AKs, pistols, boxes of Iraqi bayonets and other such equipment I pulled out of returning unit's equipment when I did customs pre-clearance in 04-05 for OIF/OEF.
That and the damn Saddam head a bunch of units tried bringing back that was found in like five or more locations. Specifically, this one that ended up at Camp Doha:
https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2004/11/24/4875a569-a642-11e2-a3f0-029118418759/resize/620x465/dd7a10f1bccceaed8b19b09ca01df659/image657638.jpg
I'm sure some things slipped through, but damned if I didn't see some creative ways of trying to hide things.
Don't Tread On Me
02-26-21, 11:16
Is that James Gandolfini?
You're be shocked at how many AKs, pistols, boxes of Iraqi bayonets and other such equipment I pulled out of returning unit's equipment when I did customs pre-clearance in 04-05 for OIF/OEF.
That and the damn Saddam head a bunch of units tried bringing back that was found in like five or more locations. Specifically, this one that ended up at Camp Doha:
https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2004/11/24/4875a569-a642-11e2-a3f0-029118418759/resize/620x465/dd7a10f1bccceaed8b19b09ca01df659/image657638.jpg
I'm sure some things slipped through, but damned if I didn't see some creative ways of trying to hide things.
That's awesome. "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'."
Does every unit have their shit go through customs? I don't recall that we did. Maybe we did and I don't remember or that it happened outside of my three-foot world.
Grand58742
02-26-21, 11:42
That's awesome. "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'."
Does every unit have their shit go through customs? I don't recall that we did. Maybe we did and I don't remember or that it happened outside of my three-foot world.
Back then, every unit went through customs in Kuwait starting in early 2004 during the drawdown. I know the program continued after we left in 05, but I don't know how much longer it lasted.
Every container was inspected, every vehicle was inspected for customs and agriculture (units hated washing days) and every bag was dumped and inspected. My favorite was always the fake Rolex watches the bazaars would put out and dupe some young person into buying for a $100 apiece. They were allowed to bring back one for them and one as a "gift." I saw some dudes that had like 30 or more.
"But I paid $50 a piece for them!" And my reply of "you got robbed, the Bling Bling Brothers only charge $20 per copy" did not always go over well.
And the Iraqi Dinar scam lol
And the unit trying to pass off a 120mm Iraqi mortar as a "it's a stand for changing tires." Bruh, please.
UXOs... those weren't fun especially when the dingbats didn't know WTF they were.
Grenades hidden within the plate areas of the IBA armor (they kept the plates in theater and sent the carrier back)
That really was one of my best deployments.
Back then, every unit went through customs in Kuwait starting in early 2004 during the drawdown. I know the program continued after we left in 05, but I don't know how much longer it lasted.
Every container was inspected, every vehicle was inspected for customs and agriculture (units hated washing days) and every bag was dumped and inspected. My favorite was always the fake Rolex watches the bazaars would put out and dupe some young person into buying for a $100 apiece. They were allowed to bring back one for them and one as a "gift." I saw some dudes that had like 30 or more.
"But I paid $50 a piece for them!" And my reply of "you got robbed, the Bling Bling Brothers only charge $20 per copy" did not always go over well.
And the Iraqi Dinar scam lol
And the unit trying to pass off a 120mm Iraqi mortar as a "it's a stand for changing tires." Bruh, please.
UXOs... those weren't fun especially when the dingbats didn't know WTF they were.
Grenades hidden within the plate areas of the IBA armor (they kept the plates in theater and sent the carrier back)
That really was one of my best deployments.
Too funny. I learn something new every day. My last in Iraq ended December 2003.
Averageman
02-26-21, 11:47
That's awesome. "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'."
Does every unit have their shit go through customs? I don't recall that we did. Maybe we did and I don't remember or that it happened outside of my three-foot world.
We had to. We stayed at Khobar towers, each tank platoon got a suite and we piled in. We worked day and night cleaning tanks, I mean to the point we pulled engines to clean them and the engine bays out.
They were pre inspected with engines out, then inspected again before loading on ships.
We cleaned our TA-50 threw away old worn out gear and waited and waited while they inspected.
The guy with the M-9 got busted which resulted in us stopping everything simply to begin again from square one on customs inspections.
You're be shocked at how many AKs, pistols, boxes of Iraqi bayonets and other such equipment I pulled out of returning unit's equipment when I did customs pre-clearance in 04-05 for OIF/OEF.
.
The sad thing is there were some really cool old 1911s, SMLEs, and other guns that turned up in Iraq, and to some extent A-Stan, that would have been legal in the US but there was no way to import them. I did once handle and shoot a Makarov that was rumored to have been snuck back from OIF, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if it was a pawn shop gun the guy just said he smuggled back for cool guy points. I love cool guns but I know I certainly wouldn’t take the risk.
I would! It not the main gun but it's small and light enough that why not?
Because it’s that pistol or an extra couple of M4 mags, or grenades, or some belt for the 240, stuff you can actually use to take the fight to the enemy.
Grand58742
02-26-21, 12:11
The sad thing is there were some really cool old 1911s, SMLEs, and other guns that turned up in Iraq, and to some extent A-Stan, that would have been legal in the US but there was no way to import them. I did once handle and shoot a Makarov that was rumored to have been snuck back from OIF, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if it was a pawn shop gun the guy just said he smuggled back for cool guy points. I love cool guns but I know I certainly wouldn’t take the risk.
Funny thing was, the 1911s we found still had the USG markings (some had the flaming bomb ordnance symbols) and weren't marked as Iraqi property.
If I had been a smart type, I'd have called it part of my unit TOE and brought it back that way.
Does every unit have their shit go through customs? I don't recall that we did. Maybe we did and I don't remember or that it happened outside of my three-foot world.
For what it's worth; for all of my deployments to Afghanistan (most recent being 2014), we had to clear customs in Kuwait on the way out of theater. Both for R&R as well as redeployment.
I remember seeing some footage from early in with guys with cheap NC Star scopes on their rifles. It amazed me.
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Yeah there was some interesting setups for awhile. Gotta remember most mil members aren’t “gun people”.
I know a guy who decided to try and smuggle an Iraqi Army M9. It was pretty pimped out, I see the attraction, but it ended his career right then and there.
During our RIP from Iraq, we had a battalion armorer that got busted trying to ship two Glock 19s home. He took out the padding in a pelican, put in the pistols and was promptly caught when the shipment was scanned. I mean come on. You’re gonna get drummed out at the least. Make it worth your while. Like an RPG-7 and live rockets.
That's awesome. "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'."
Does every unit have their shit go through customs? I don't recall that we did. Maybe we did and I don't remember or that it happened outside of my three-foot world.
Not every unit. The super cool kids do their own thing.
Not every unit. The super cool kids do their own thing.
Well, it was a cool-guy unit, but not like our own C17 a la NSW cool-guy unit.
Because it’s that pistol or an extra couple of M4 mags, or grenades, or some belt for the 240, stuff you can actually use to take the fight to the enemy.Because a handgun takes up that much space? My Beretta is roughly about the size of a laptop!
Seriously...if an extra. 2lbs is what prevents you from moving you have issues
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You're be shocked at how many AKs, pistols, boxes of Iraqi bayonets and other such equipment I pulled out of returning unit's equipment when I did customs pre-clearance in 04-05 for OIF/OEF.https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2004/11/24/4875a569-a642-11e2-a3f0-029118418759/resize/620x465/dd7a10f1bccceaed8b19b09ca01df659/image657638.jpg
I'm sure some things slipped through, but damned if I didn't see some creative ways of trying to hide things.
I once knew a fella, along with the rest of his squad, managed to get back full auto AK's during the first Gulf War. They had gotten away clean until one dipshit took theirs to a public range and got busted. That one ended up ratting out the rest.
For what it's worth; for all of my deployments to Afghanistan (most recent being 2014), we had to clear customs in Kuwait on the way out of theater. Both for R&R as well as redeployment.
My last trip the two way range was 2011-2012 and we had guys make it through the first round of customs with live ammo and grenades. They were found during the second round.I say that to illustrate that customs doesn't always catch everything.
My last trip the two way range was 2011-2012 and we had guys make it through the first round of customs with live ammo and grenades. They were found during the second round.I say that to illustrate that customs doesn't always catch everything.
In hindsight; we could have easily smuggled things through Bagram.
Where there's a Joe, there's a way.
Because a handgun takes up that much space? My Beretta is roughly about the size of a laptop!
Seriously...if an extra. 2lbs is what prevents you from moving you have issues
Perhaps you lack infantry experience. There are dozens of things more useful in combat than a pistol that get left behind or you wish you could carry more of.
I also don’t feel like I have properly communicated how useless a pistol is in combat.
Perhaps you lack infantry experience. There are dozens of things more useful in combat than a pistol that get left behind or you wish you could carry more of.
I also don’t feel like I have properly communicated how useless a pistol is in combat.No...no infantry experience. I do have experience dragging heavy gear up hill on my back and a handgun was never something that broke the Camel's back.
I don't see how a pistol takes up that much space that it takes up the space of something useful. It's not like ....damn I could have grabbed 12 extra AR mags but didn't have room due to this pistol.
I understand how useless a pistol is in a rifle fight. Right up until your rifle is out of ammo. Then a handgun becomes pretty good idea. Does it happen often? Probably not but there were a few times it has happened
No...no infantry experience. I do have experience dragging heavy gear up hill on my back and a handgun was never something that broke the Camel's back.
I don't see how a pistol takes up that much space that it takes up the space of something useful. It's not like ....damn I could have grabbed 12 extra AR mags but didn't have room due to this pistol.
I understand how useless a pistol is in a rifle fight. Right up until your rifle is out of ammo. Then a handgun becomes pretty good idea. Does it happen often? Probably not but there were a few times it has happened
One of the highest performing enlisted members of my organization said he ditched a pistol and mags for extra grandes every time, so maybe just accept that your experience doesn’t mirror everyone’s.
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Perhaps you lack infantry experience. There are dozens of things more useful in combat than a pistol that get left behind or you wish you could carry more of.
I also don’t feel like I have properly communicated how useless a pistol is in combat.
Maybe a compromise between having no sidearm or a large sidearm is a compact sidearm? Like many did in from 1900-1950 or so.
"Hey, Franz, wanna a model '96 Mauser with holster to back up your rifle?"
"I'm not carrying that thing! I'd rather carry more water, rifle ammo, or a grenade."
"Well, how about this 7.65 mm Walther PP with holster and extra mag?"
"Hm...yea I can put that and a couple extra rifle chargers on my belt. Hand it over..."
sidewaysil80
02-27-21, 07:34
Interesting about the customs stuff. All four of my deployments were as a platoon, every-time we packed four or five pallets. One with weapons, one with gear, the rest with misc and everyones bags/pelicans. Two or three guys would fly out with the pallets in advance and stay with it until our arrival. We would fly mix of commercial/military with just a carry on. We and our carry on went through customs, but our palletized gear never did. Same for return trip.
FWIW active duty from 2004-2012 (dual armed with pistol and rifle too btw)
After I originally posted I asked a Vietnam vet about pistols. He responded to the effect that if he had needed one, it just would have meant he should have brought more M16 magazines and more frags. That squares with some of the comments above.
Steve Shannon
02-27-21, 08:57
I don't see how a pistol takes up that much space that it takes up the space of something useful. It's not like ....damn I could have grabbed 12 extra AR mags but didn't have room due to this pistol.
I understand how useless a pistol is in a rifle fight. Right up until your rifle is out of ammo. Then a handgun becomes pretty good idea. Does it happen often? Probably not but there were a few times it has happened
I’ll be laughing at the logical disconnect between these two statements all day. Thanks! [emoji3]
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The_War_Wagon
02-27-21, 09:00
As per usual, I'm guessing this order DOESN'T apply to General officers? :rolleyes:
https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2019/05/29/d_day_in_color_69746_c0-155-1890-1256_s885x516.jpg?15b5e9bf8dd030e56dc8a54233ce641ae7939827
When the British Army adopted the Glock 17 Gen 4 back in 2013, one of the intentions was that every infantryman in Afghanistan would be issued one. This was under the idea that it would just be a backup weapon in the event that the primary weapon (SA80) failed. Of course, their doctrine is a bit different than ours.
MA2_Navy_Veteran
02-27-21, 11:08
Guys, it's not rocket science. It's simply about responsibility & accountability.
Most officers (as well as some senior enlisted team leaders) have the ability to authorize the use of... call them "alternate arms or weapons", but won't do so simply because they (understandably) don't want the added responsibility or accountability of improper & accidental or intentional misuse of said arms/weapons.
As well, there are several levels of state, federal, and international rules, laws, and treaties regarding the use of arms & weapons for both as citizens & as members of the military. Being such that it is far easier to avoid any of the legal conflicts by simply not authorizing individual, personally-owned or obtained weapons within the AO.
All that beings said - Even nowadays, it still mostly boils down to both what & more importantly WHO you know in determining what you can actually get away with.
Well, it was a cool-guy unit, but not like our own C17 a la NSW cool-guy unit.
Who was man? I’m confused.
As per usual, I'm guessing this order DOESN'T apply to General officers? :rolleyes:
https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2019/05/29/d_day_in_color_69746_c0-155-1890-1256_s885x516.jpg?15b5e9bf8dd030e56dc8a54233ce641ae7939827
Patton could get away with it. He could probably have gotten away with shooting anyone who gave him shit about it. It's a small club that can thumb their nose at the rules. I can guarantee if Patton had seen a jr officer or enlisted man doing the exact same thing they'd have been F'd.
MountainRaven
02-27-21, 22:20
No...no infantry experience. I do have experience dragging heavy gear up hill on my back and a handgun was never something that broke the Camel's back.
I don't see how a pistol takes up that much space that it takes up the space of something useful. It's not like ....damn I could have grabbed 12 extra AR mags but didn't have room due to this pistol.
I understand how useless a pistol is in a rifle fight. Right up until your rifle is out of ammo. Then a handgun becomes pretty good idea. Does it happen often? Probably not but there were a few times it has happened
The two-ish pounds that your 15-shot Glock 19 weighs is the equivalent weight (approximately) of two M16 magazines loaded with 60 rounds of 5.56. Why on earth would you ever prefer to have 15-rounds of 9mm in a Glock 19 than 60 rounds of 5.56 for your M16/M4?
As per usual, I'm guessing this order DOESN'T apply to General officers? :rolleyes:
https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2019/05/29/d_day_in_color_69746_c0-155-1890-1256_s885x516.jpg?15b5e9bf8dd030e56dc8a54233ce641ae7939827
At the time Patton received his commission, it was normal for officers to supply their own sidearms. That's when he bought his pair of nickel-plated, ivory-stocked 45-caliber Colt model Ps. When he gifted one of those revolvers, he replaced it with a Smith & Wesson Registered Magnum (pre-model 27 N-frame in 357 Magnum). He was also far from the only GO - or officer of any rank commissioned or otherwise - in WWII to have supplied his own sidearm. Officers who chose sidearms with non-standard ammunition or non-standard parts were responsible for acquiring their own ammunition and, when necessary, paying for parts to repair their sidearms (most officers never shot their personally owned weapons enough to wear them out, so it was mostly a moot point - but both were reasons for officers to acquire quality sidearms and generally to acquire sidearms in the calibers used by the Army*).
I don't know when it ceased to be the norm for American officers to purchase their own sidearms, but I seem to recall that it was sometime around WWII. Even if it were prior to WWII, I imagine anyone complaining to Patton's bosses (Bradley, Ike, FDR, Truman, &c.) would have been very politely thanked for bringing it to their attention and then promptly demoted to private and transferred to the furthest outpost from them for wasting their time when there're Nazis/fascists/Japanese to kill (I imagine similar attitudes prevailed throughout the officer and NCO corps about other officers or NCOs or other ranks carrying personally owned weapons).
*While not the US Army, Winston Churchill carried a Mauser C96 as an officer in the British Army, both a very non-standard sidearm for the job and a non-standard caliber for the British Army. Colt M1911s and other pistols, including the Webley-Fosbery auto-revolver, were available for purchase by British officers through the Army-Navy Cooperative Society Ltd - which was far from the only method by which an officer could acquire their arms. Until recently, officers in the Swiss military could purchase their sidearms upon being commissioned - in addition to being able to purchase their issued arms upon discharge from the armed services.
The two-ish pounds that your 15-shot Glock 19 weighs is the equivalent weight (approximately) of two M16 magazines loaded with 60 rounds of 5.56. Why on earth would you ever prefer to have 15-rounds of 9mm in a Glock 19 than 60 rounds of 5.56 for your M16/M4?
At the time Patton received his commission, it was normal for officers to supply their own sidearms. That's when he bought his pair of nickel-plated, ivory-stocked 45-caliber Colt model Ps. When he gifted one of those revolvers, he replaced it with a Smith & Wesson Registered Magnum (pre-model 27 N-frame in 357 Magnum). He was also far from the only GO - or officer of any rank commissioned or otherwise - in WWII to have supplied his own sidearm. Officers who chose sidearms with non-standard ammunition or non-standard parts were responsible for acquiring their own ammunition and, when necessary, paying for parts to repair their sidearms (most officers never shot their personally owned weapons enough to wear them out, so it was mostly a moot point - but both were reasons for officers to acquire quality sidearms and generally to acquire sidearms in the calibers used by the Army*).
I don't know when it ceased to be the norm for American officers to purchase their own sidearms, but I seem to recall that it was sometime around WWII. Even if it were prior to WWII, I imagine anyone complaining to Patton's bosses (Bradley, Ike, FDR, Truman, &c.) would have been very politely thanked for bringing it to their attention and then promptly demoted to private and transferred to the furthest outpost from them for wasting their time when there're Nazis/fascists/Japanese to kill (I imagine similar attitudes prevailed throughout the officer and NCO corps about other officers or NCOs or other ranks carrying personally owned weapons).
*While not the US Army, Winston Churchill carried a Mauser C96 as an officer in the British Army, both a very non-standard sidearm for the job and a non-standard caliber for the British Army. Colt M1911s and other pistols, including the Webley-Fosbery auto-revolver, were available for purchase by British officers through the Army-Navy Cooperative Society Ltd - which was far from the only method by which an officer could acquire their arms. Until recently, officers in the Swiss military could purchase their sidearms upon being commissioned - in addition to being able to purchase their issued arms upon discharge from the armed services.Because I don't see it as one or the other
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Guy I knew that was a LERP in Vietnam said his outfit carried all kinds of weapons. He carried a Ww2 grease gun and a PPK. There was an M14, a shotgun, a couple AKs, Colt CAR 15, etc. I suppose snake eaters could carry whatever.
Guy I knew that was a LERP in Vietnam said his outfit carried all kinds of weapons. He carried a Ww2 grease gun and a PPK. There was an M14, a shotgun, a couple AKs, Colt CAR 15, etc. I suppose snake eaters could carry whatever.
Tankers were issued "WWII" Greaseguns until the M4 came along.
Devildawg2531
02-28-21, 08:58
When I was in the Marines during some of our field exercises I would carry a concealed personally owned Glock. I know a few other Marines in my unit who often carried concealed as well. In some of our training we would be convoying in and lots of M16's but no one had live ammo. A lot of force on force training was with blanks and BFA's. I always thought man like 3 armed bad guys / terrorists could take this whole convoy and all the weapons and we are unarmed except for our personal knives. I never had any issue having a Glock with me but also didn't take it out or tell many. In hindsight I imagine I'd have been fried if carrying had been seen and escalated to command. At the time I thought carrying was prudent and not a big deal.
When I was in the Marines during some of our field exercises I would carry a concealed personally owned Glock. I know a few other Marines in my unit who often carried concealed as well. In some of our training we would be convoying in and lots of M16's but no one had live ammo. A lot of force on force training was with blanks and BFA's. I always thought man like 3 armed bad guys / terrorists could take this whole convoy and all the weapons and we are unarmed except for our personal knives. I never had any issue having a Glock with me but also didn't take it out or tell many. In hindsight I imagine I'd have been fried if carrying had been seen and escalated to command. At the time I thought carrying was prudent and not a big deal.
That would be ill advised in 90% of the Active Army units.
Andy
Devildawg2531
03-01-21, 08:46
That would be ill advised in 90% of the Active Army units.
Andy
I imagine it was ill advised in the Marines in the 90's. We were doing some training at Fort McClellan and they had a pistol range in the middle of nowhere. We were doing nothing waiting for the next training schedule. We discussed with each other using their pistol range as no one was around.. but didn't and in hindsight glad we made that choice. Could have gone sideways quickly.
Who was man? I’m confused.
Bleh. Sorry, I see my comment totally didn't make sense. I know some NSW units had their own ride in a C17 and did zip with customs. I also know DEVGRU, CAG, and ISA usually exempt from things mortals have to suffer. I didn't have that luxury for sure.
I imagine it was ill advised in the Marines in the 90's. We were doing some training at Fort McClellan and they had a pistol range in the middle of nowhere. We were doing nothing waiting for the next training schedule. We discussed with each other using their pistol range as no one was around.. but didn't and in hindsight glad we made that choice. Could have gone sideways quickly.
Man, I have seen NCIS called for a lot less.
Doesn’t mean he was “supposed” to do that. I know guys that did the same thing with M9s and Mossberg 500/Remington 870s. Everyone either knew and looked the other way or didn’t suspect a thing because they were identical to issued weapons. Optic and accessories leniency was better because back in the early GWOT days we didn’t have shit.
Not at all! He knew it was wrong when he was doing it but he wasn't really comfortable with the weapon he was issued in terms of it's well known lack of stopping power. I mean, literally it was about the same or worse than the .38's that failed in the Phillipines that lead to the adoption of the 1911. Those 130 grain FMJ's are a piss poor load and anyone that knows anything about firearms/ballistics won't really argue the point.
I once knew a fella, along with the rest of his squad, managed to get back full auto AK's during the first Gulf War. They had gotten away clean until one dipshit took theirs to a public range and got busted. That one ended up ratting out the rest.
Good friend of mine deployed with an Army Reserve unit out of Wisconsin to Desert Storm. He ended up guarding prisoners, shit loads of Iraqi prisoners while in Kuwait......Anyway, his unit rotates back to the states. About 6 months later they have drill weekend. They get a flat on their Deuce so they pull the spare out and put it on. Start down the road, spare goes WHOMP, WHOMP, WHOMP and vibrates like hell......They pull it off and take it off the rim- two AK's wrapped in rags. There was a huge shit storm etc...but it could never be proved who did it etc...Supposedly those AK's are on display at the Unit Museum at Camp McCoy.
Mostly standardization.
And could you imagine the war in Iraq if if 65% of the guys were running XDs and Judges. It's bad enough when a military vendor drops something substandard in the supply chain like those Checkmate M9 magazines that malf'd every chance they got. If guys could bring whatever they wanted you'd see some stupid shit with some Tapco accessories.
I question the wisdom of carrying a Gold Cup in Nam. It's an excellent 1911, just not in Vietnam.
Lots of guys who weren't issued handguns because they had a Garand liked to get handguns from home or from the enemy because there were times when you could probably get a handgun up and running faster, like when you are sleeping.
We gave those vets a lot of discretion and they generally didn't abuse it, but there were accidents and incidents from time to time.Or the military contractors would be unhappy and the loss of revenue and cut their lobby dollars to the politicians.
Guy I knew that was a LERP in Vietnam said his outfit carried all kinds of weapons. He carried a Ww2 grease gun and a PPK. There was an M14, a shotgun, a couple AKs, Colt CAR 15, etc. I suppose snake eaters could carry whatever.
None of those were unusual for LRRPs. I’d wager the PPK was a personal weapon. If you look at it, they were bleeding edge. BHPs in 9MM and Carbines. At huge risk of going out my lane....since AR-10s were not an option....I would have tried to get some scoped FALs in lieu of M14s though. But I have the benefit of 21st Century hindsight
The first time I was in combat was Urgent Fury in 1983. In the aftermath, there were Military Intelligence personnel gathering all kinds of Cuban small arms and equipment plus AA and personnel carriers. I remember the armed guards they had around all the stuff prior to loading on transport planes. At the time I didn't know the difference between a Russian or Chinese AK, but they were all fixed wooden stock weapons. I also remember the rag tag looking Angolan workers who were there under the control of the Cubans. I didn't bring home anything from that event other than a bullet wound in the right thumb and the memory of a fellow pilot killed there.
Averageman
03-16-21, 12:28
Bet that makes roping a little different.
Bet that makes roping a little different.
Fragmented 7.62 round into the cockpit with part that hit the right hand (thumb). Stitched up by a Navy Corpsman on the USS Independence (CV-62). Only long term issues has been arthritis in the thumb. Grenada was a time of firsts for me. First time I ever landed on a ship in open ocean.
Your story is in a slide deck for military medicine
Averageman
03-16-21, 13:21
Your story is in a slide deck for military medicine
See, OH58D;
Mom always said you'd be famous !
Your story is in a slide deck for military medicine
See, OH58D;
Mom always said you'd be famous !
I wonder if that slide deck mentions that I got real nauseous and nearly puked when my adrenaline high subsided? I was a 23 year old 1LT. Only time I ever took a small arms hit to my body in all the other more interesting engagements over the years. Still have the scar on that right thumb.
Because outside of Kassel, no one uses their pistol. I would have been fine with a single round for mine.
Diamondback
03-17-21, 00:44
I wonder if that slide deck mentions that I got real nauseous and nearly puked when my adrenaline high subsided? I was a 23 year old 1LT. Only time I ever took a small arms hit to my body in all the other more interesting engagements over the years. Still have the scar on that right thumb.
The important thing is that you still HAVE the right thumb for the scar to be on. :)
Averageman
03-17-21, 02:05
The important thing is that you still HAVE the right thumb for the scar to be on. :)
My Dad had a friend from the service that got his trigger finger shot off between the first and second joint. Didn't even apparently slow him down.
I lost a finger tip and about went in to shock.
I looked at my finger, I could deal with that, but my crotch was covered with blood.
I did a quick inventory with my uninjured hand and all was well. I sat down and took a deep breath and found the tip of my finger on the turret flow and unassed the Tank with my finger in my pocket.
That was about 40 + years ago, still works fine.
Or the military contractors would be unhappy and the loss of revenue and cut their lobby dollars to the politicians.
Why would allowing soldiers to carry privately owned pistols matter to Beretta or Sig?
Andy
My Dad had a friend from the service that got his trigger finger shot off between the first and second joint. Didn't even apparently slow him down.
I lost a finger tip and about went in to shock.
I looked at my finger, I could deal with that, but my crotch was covered with blood.
I did a quick inventory with my uninjured hand and all was well. I sat down and took a deep breath and found the tip of my finger on the turret flow and unassed the Tank with my finger in my pocket.
That was about 40 + years ago, still works fine.
I had Marines with fingers blown off; they never got out of the fight. When they were evac'd, many of them ended coming back a good while later after having surgery, sometimes with only two fingers. But they could do the job.
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