View Full Version : Black Box search warrant???? Tiger Woods crash
LEOs going to pull his black box data today.
What say ye about this?
What about pulling video data from a cam?
Pros & Cons both ways.
Drive safe!
geezer john
Gabriel556
03-03-21, 10:43
My opinion as an employee of a vehicle manufacturer, for single vehicle accidents where there were no external fatalities, leave it be. Crash forensics should tell them enough and if insurance was wanting to subrogate the claim to a responsible party, they should check cell phone records and or the camera footage along the route he took.
Now if it was a drunk that hit a school bus full of kids or something, the vehicle cams and audio recorders are fair game.
My opinion as an employee of a vehicle manufacturer, for single vehicle accidents where there were no external fatalities, leave it be. Crash forensics should tell them enough and if insurance was wanting to subrogate the claim to a responsible party, they should check cell phone records and or the camera footage along the route he took.
Now if it was a drunk that hit a school bus full of kids or something, the vehicle cams and audio recorders are fair game.
Only way I could see it being relevant is if Tiger thinks some vehicle defect caused or contributed to the crash. Agreed, in a single vehicle accident, not much reason to dump the box....
Grand58742
03-03-21, 11:08
Having been an accident investigator, the data the vehicle can show is certainly helpful in determining the cause, final speed, condition of the vehicle, etc. It's not for fault purposes, but helpful for the accuracy of the final report without having to take a metric ton of measurements and plug them into the formula.
Fun fact, most modern vehicles store that information in at least five different places.
Gabriel556
03-03-21, 11:35
I agree with both of you here as well. I’m betting his legal team is hoping to push an external influence to place blame.
Grand, how common is this type of export?
Grand58742
03-03-21, 11:51
I agree with both of you here as well. I’m betting his legal team is hoping to push an external influence to place blame.
Grand, how common is this type of export?
It's more of a due diligence for both LEOs and insurance companies rather than pushing to blame an external factor. However, if something was found mechanically wrong with the vehicle that certainly plays a factor in assigning responsibility. Problem is, there are far too many external factors that won't be recorded for it to be blamed on mechanical problems solely.
As for how often, I'm not sure, but I know I would have requested it in difficult to explain situations or where I absolutely couldn't determine minimum speed. (ran a fatality accident investigation like that in Germany) The thing is, such data is time sensitive and can corrupt pretty quickly if not retrieved. Or on "older" modern vehicles it was. Honestly, it's been a few years since I've been in that world, but I'd guess vehicles have gotten better about storing the data since that time.
Regardless, it's not improper for the LOs or insurance companies to request that information especially if there is no criminal or civil case involved. It's actually prudent just to dot the I's and cross the T's in a high profile case like this one.
Grand58742
03-03-21, 12:32
I agree with both of you here as well. I’m betting his legal team is hoping to push an external influence to place blame.
Grand, how common is this type of export?
Honestly, didn't care enough to look at footage or pics from the scene until you mentioned this. After looking over the accident scene, I probably would have requested the "black box" data as well. (understanding it's not really a black box like an aircraft has) And either asked for consent from the vehicle owner or requested search authority on such a thing if refused.
Basically, I can't see any tire marks from the aerial views of the scene that were released. Obviously, I'm not on scene and have no idea what Tiger has told the personnel investigating his accident, but tire marks can tell a very complete story of an accident and the events leading up to it. The lack thereof tends to be a red flag to any investigator depending on what the driver has told them. Long story short, lack of tire marks would lead an investigator to believe no braking action was taken prior to the point of impact. I.E. driver says "I slammed on the brakes" and no tire marks are found, it's going to lead an investigator to believe the driver is lying. There are ways of seeing "shadow skids" (impending skid marks) if you're on scene, but the photographs I've seen can't determine that.
Based on the damage to the vehicle and the lack of skids, I would lean towards the theory he was still going at full velocity when he exited the roadway.
Averageman
03-03-21, 12:37
I would almost bet that since Tiger does commercials for a well known auto maker, some of this might be to show that it wasn't their product that was at fault but it was actually the Drivers and they want to point that out in big letters.
Gabriel556
03-03-21, 13:17
Grand, you and I had the same thoughts. Thanks for your SME insights.
Voodoochild
03-03-21, 16:34
My understanding is that the road he crashed on is known for having quite a few crashes and fatalities. Might be a bad road.
There is so much data they can pull from the airbag sensors and computer it is mind blowing...especially in a newer vehicle.
Rimkus Consulting does a good job, but the manufacturer can pull a lot more stuff...
It's pretty common to pull that kind of data for fatals or big press accidents. I don't work in our vehicular homicide unit but a good Academy buddy does. I've also seen it pulled for DUI accidents where people were seriously hurt or a crazy amount of property damage was done.
If it's true that there was no sign of braking or avoidance I would suspect Tiger fell asleep.
For single vehicle non fatal accidents I really don't see them pulling the info to find fault, it's pretty much always the driver's fault. Driving too fast for conditions, or in Az "driving to fast to avoid a collision". If for some reason they couldn't assign fault to Tiger I have a hard time thinking they would put in that amount of man hours to give him a probably 200 dollar citation.
ThirdWatcher
03-04-21, 00:31
It’s objective evidence, it could just as easily exonerate the driver.
eightmillimeter
03-04-21, 20:33
I deal with crash data daily, and obtain data from all kinds of passenger vehicles and CMV’s all the time. The news is making a big deal out of the fact that he was not accused of a crime in the search warrant application such as reckless driving, etc. The Driver Privacy Act of 2015 signed by Obama, requires a search warrant of owner consent for LE to access the data for the purposes of investigation.
The data on that brand new Genesis, which is of the Kia/Hyundai family, will be very nice and complete data, probably for at least 5 seconds, if not more, pre airbag.
My only complaint with Kia is they report in metric units.
As for those who think it isn’t worth doing on single vehicle crashes, it is so easy to do it’s not worth “not” doing it. Not every crash has good data, and it’s nice to have data and experience to build experience for when you have to do it the hard way. Rollovers can be tricky and you want as much experience as possible for the next crash, where a drunk dumps it at high speed and kills their passengers, etc.
I deal with crash data daily, and obtain data from all kinds of passenger vehicles and CMV’s all the time. The news is making a big deal out of the fact that he was not accused of a crime in the search warrant application such as reckless driving, etc. The Driver Privacy Act of 2015 signed by Obama, requires a search warrant of owner consent for LE to access the data for the purposes of investigation.
The data on that brand new Genesis, which is of the Kia/Hyundai family, will be very nice and complete data, probably for at least 5 seconds, if not more, pre airbag.
My only complaint with Kia is they report in metric units.
As for those who think it isn’t worth doing on single vehicle crashes, it is so easy to do it’s not worth “not” doing it. Not every crash has good data, and it’s nice to have data and experience to build experience for when you have to do it the hard way. Rollovers can be tricky and you want as much experience as possible for the next crash, where a drunk dumps it at high speed and kills their passengers, etc.
You draw up warrants for run of the mil wrecks?
militarymoron
03-04-21, 22:11
My understanding is that the road he crashed on is known for having quite a few crashes and fatalities. Might be a bad road.
Just bad drivers. That road is wide, smooth, and very well maintained (rich area). The 'bad' about it is that it's just too easy to go fast on.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-05-21, 02:11
I just saw a report that Tyger says he doesn’t remember what happened before the crash, doesn’t remember driving. That seems like it would be enough to pull the data to find out what actually happened. I think it was just early morning, he was running late, and a road that has bit other people bit him. Sometimes a car accident is just an accident.
I just saw a report that Tyger says he doesn’t remember what happened before the crash, doesn’t remember driving. That seems like it would be enough to pull the data to find out what actually happened. I think it was just early morning, he was running late, and a road that has bit other people bit him. Sometimes a car accident is just an accident.
If he doesn't remember what happened I can for sure see them pulling the info. Especially on a high profile case like this. Im still betting on he fell asleep.
Averageman
03-05-21, 14:13
If he doesn't remember what happened I can for sure see them pulling the info. Especially on a high profile case like this. Im still betting on he fell asleep.
I'm willing to bet that a lot of sponsors for Tiger want it to happen.
The Face of your Brand cannot be an impaired driver.
I'm willing to bet that a lot of sponsors for Tiger want it to happen.
The Face of your Brand cannot be an impaired driver.
They've already said there were no signs of impairment.
eightmillimeter
03-05-21, 15:56
You draw up warrants for run of the mil wrecks?
I don’t work “run of the mill wrecks”
The wreck that Tiger was in may or may not get me called out, but if I had to work that wreck I would absolutely write it up
I don’t work “run of the mill wrecks”
The wreck that Tiger was in may or may not get me called out, but if I had to work that wreck I would absolutely write it up
Ahh gotcha. My buddy who works our vehicular homicide unit gets that info all the time too.
I thought you were saying that you were pulling it for regular wrecks that patrol guys take daily.
Steve Shannon
03-05-21, 20:37
Since it’s a rental car, wouldn’t the rental company own the data? Wouldn’t they want to provide the data in case it could shift the cost from their insurance to Tiger Woods? Maybe their insurance company even requires them to provide the data.
dwhitehorne
03-05-21, 20:52
My opinion as an employee of a vehicle manufacturer, for single vehicle accidents where there were no external fatalities, leave it be. C
^^This^^ As collision reconstructionist on the call out list for eleven years I always hated standing in the poring rain with the total station poles for a sole occupant drunk into a tree. I always complained that the reconstruction is a criminal investigation and since we aren't charging the deceased driver then why am I getting rained on. Civil liability was always the answer because of the eventual pending law suits.
I'm guessing since Tiger was driving a brand new model SUV from a company that has never had a SUV model many are interested in the vehicle dynamics report. Additionally if one of the most popular golf players in the world can not recover from the crash to play golf again many sponsorship (contracts) will go away and monies owed could come into question. David
Report is saying that Tiger was traveling between 84-87 mph when he left the roadway.
I'm still guessing he fell asleep due to a lack of braking and him saying he didn't remember the wreck.
dwhitehorne
04-08-21, 15:37
I'm still guessing he fell asleep due to a lack of braking and him saying he didn't remember the wreck.
This makes the most sense based on the news reporting and why the PD isn't concerned about the case. David
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.