View Full Version : Tom Clancy's: Without Remorse (2021)
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-21, 03:05
https://youtu.be/mtGjZp3MWrI
I don't know. After the second season of Jack Ryan being a complete turd-show on Prime, I don't know if I trust them. So this would be Clark, right? After they killed of the real Clark in the new Jack Ryan series?
It looks like a good movie. I just don't think any of the Tom Clancy universe movies or books have been worth a crap in the last 20 years.
Patriot Games, Clear and Present Danger, and of course Hunt for Red October. Awesome. Wish they had done a mini-series on Red Storm Rising. Maybe with the 80s nostolgia and the rise of Russia they will do it- but I think they'd screw it up now. Since Ryan became POTUS, it has just lost it at the book level. The books got crappy, the movies (Sum of all Fears) got PC. That Prime Jack Ryan series had a pretty good 1st season, but they absolutely, totally, with no way to redeem themselves- jacked up the second season.
Someone better get put into a decom-pressure chamber, or I'm calling foul in the whole thing...
https://youtu.be/mtGjZp3MWrI
I don't know. After the second season of Jack Ryan being a complete turd-show on Prime, I don't know if I trust them. So this would be Clark, right? After they killed of the real Clark in the new Jack Ryan series?
It looks like a good movie. I just don't think any of the Tom Clancy universe movies or books have been worth a crap in the last 20 years.
Patriot Games, Clear and Present Danger, and of course Hunt for Red October. Awesome. Wish they had done a mini-series on Red Storm Rising. Maybe with the 80s nostolgia and the rise of Russia they will do it- but I think they'd screw it up now. Since Ryan became POTUS, it has just lost it at the book level. The books got crappy, the movies (Sum of all Fears) got PC. That Prime Jack Ryan series had a pretty good 1st season, but they absolutely, totally, with no way to redeem themselves- jacked up the second season.
Someone better get put into a decom-pressure chamber, or I'm calling foul in the whole thing...
John Clark had Irish ancestors, not African. I know exactly why they picked a black actor: neomarxist virtue signaling. Zero interest. Hollywood can take their divisive, hate spewing ideology, and go die in a fire.
William Dafoe was a pretty good John Clark, but I am a Tom Clancy fan and still read the books when they come out.
But changing a character to fit the PC mindset is ridiculous....
BoringGuy45
03-06-21, 06:53
John Clark had Irish ancestors, not African. I know exactly why they picked a black actor: neomarxist virtue signaling. Zero interest. Hollywood can take their divisive, hate spewing ideology, and go die in a fire.
If John Clark were originally a black character and they changed him to be white, we'd never hear the friggin' end of it.
I’m the first person to roll my eyes at illogical inclusiveness in Disney Scandinavian-themed movies and Northern European fairy tales, but I don’t have a concern when an actor is cast in a movie set in present America, and it doesn’t create some jarring dissonance. Americans come in all stripes; the military reflects this. The backstory might be adjusted a hair, but frankly, plenty of black Americans have Irish ancestry, too.
A bunch of people got up in arms because an Asian woman has been contracted to pay “Katie” in The Terminal List. Who cares? As long as her story includes a family wronged by communists...it works.
BoringGuy45
03-06-21, 08:11
I’m the first person to roll my eyes at illogical inclusiveness in Disney Scandinavian-themed movies and Northern European fairy tales, but I don’t have a concern when an actor is cast in a movie set in present America, and it doesn’t create some jarring dissonance. Americans come in all stripes; the military reflects this. The backstory might be adjusted a hair, but frankly, plenty of black Americans have Irish ancestry, too.
A bunch of people got up in arms because an Asian woman has been contracted to pay “Katie” in The Terminal List. Who cares? As long as her story includes a family wronged by communists...it works.
I don't think anybody cares specifically about switching the character from white to black. It's the obvious reason behind it that people are tired of: The never ending saga of woke-ness. If they were just taking creative license, nobody would bat an eye. If this movie was made 15 years ago, I don't think it would have raised any eyebrows because people weren't all up in arms over race.
Grand58742
03-06-21, 08:56
Looks good, but Without Remorse was a time period piece like a lot of Clancy's works. The "drug war" was just beginning to get underway, America was still heavily involved in Vietnam and the culture was different.
I'll probably watch it because I have Prime, but after the Jack Ryan debacle, I'm probably setting myself up for disappointment.
WillieThom
03-06-21, 09:07
What about Greer..... Karen Greer.....
WillieThom
03-06-21, 09:08
I’m willing to bet all the antagonists are the mean old white guys with all of their power and white supremacy, too..
Averageman
03-06-21, 09:29
I’m willing to bet all the antagonists are the mean old white guys with all of their power and white supremacy, too..
All they need is a Germanic villain with a postage stamp sized moustache, maybe a beer hall.
Who knows where this could go?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-21, 09:44
On the race thing, when Jonsey the sonarman was cast as black that ired some people. The actor they are using is a good one for the origin story. The 'Clark' in the Jack Ryan Prime reboot was more of the correct age and circumstance to the Ryan character. If they merge the stories now, Clark and Ryan are the same age? Wait till Ding finds out he is a girl.
Clancy wrote good stuff, stick with it. I don't know why they pay for the IP and then throw it out?
Clancy wrote good stuff, stick with it. I don't know why they pay for the IP and then throw it out?
Subversion. Everything is about pushing their agenda. Nothing is sacred. They are extremely cutthroat people, fanatically obsessed with pushing their worldview. They are communists. Agents of chaos.
Coal Dragger
03-06-21, 15:23
Not going to bother watching that crap.
I doubt anybody was getting their woke on about a Tom Clancy property.
As someone who works in the industry, my guess is someone (a producer working with a talent agency on a packaging deal) pitched this to be “bold” and to hire one of the hottest actors in Hollywood after his work on Fahrenheit 451 and Creed. And maybe to line him up for another couple of flicks.
This isn’t Marxism, it’s just a business bet about entertainment.
Sent from 80ms in the future
All they need is a Germanic villain with a postage stamp sized moustache, maybe a beer hall.
Who knows where this could go?
Already did it with "Sum of All Fears" because it is neo nazis who will want to nuke us.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-06-21, 17:00
At least the screen play and director don't seem to be the same people at S2 of Jack Ryan.
I'm just going to repeat what a complete POC the S2 was of Jack Ryan. Killed off 'Clark', got rid of Cathy Ryan AND had horrible gun, tech and tactics- the second of which- tech- has to have Tom Clancy wanting to drag the producers behind the Rueben James as a nixie to decoy Soviet torpedoes...
What about Greer..... Karen Greer.....
I saw that, Adm. Greer needs to be played by James Earl Jones only, and not turned into a muslim like in the Jack Ryan show.
Without Remorse is a period piece as previously mentioned and plays a major role in understanding John Clark and where he came from. I don't see how they can get it right by bringing it into the current age, add in the forced woke-ness and I'm out. I think I'd rather reread the book. I enjoy Clancy's books, even the Jack Ryan Jr series that has been kept alive by the other writers.
Without Remorse is a period piece as previously mentioned and plays a major role in understanding John Clark and where he came from. I don't see how they can get it right by bringing it into the current age, ....
THIS !
Diamondback
03-07-21, 09:55
I saw that, Adm. Greer needs to be played by James Earl Jones only, and not turned into a muslim like in the Jack Ryan show.
Without Remorse is a period piece as previously mentioned and plays a major role in understanding John Clark and where he came from. I don't see how they can get it right by bringing it into the current age, add in the forced woke-ness and I'm out. I think I'd rather reread the book. I enjoy Clancy's books, even the Jack Ryan Jr series that has been kept alive by the other writers.
So much THIS, even though I've skipped the Jack Jr. line.
s for Hollywood whizzing all over Clancy IP, this is what happens when neo-Orwellians want a perpetual "Year Zero" from 1984 and summarily discard such important things as historical context... Jack Jr. novels are the place for more "today" stuff, even though they're quite a bit darker than "The First Generation. Not as bad as Dale Brown's regular "how many beloved characters can I kill off this time without provoking a mass Reader Revolt" binges, but...
BoringGuy45
03-07-21, 10:30
I saw that, Adm. Greer needs to be played by James Earl Jones only, and not turned into a muslim like in the Jack Ryan show.
Without Remorse is a period piece as previously mentioned and plays a major role in understanding John Clark and where he came from. I don't see how they can get it right by bringing it into the current age, add in the forced woke-ness and I'm out. I think I'd rather reread the book. I enjoy Clancy's books, even the Jack Ryan Jr series that has been kept alive by the other writers.
I agree that the only Clancy movies that are worth watching are Red October, Patriot Games, and Clear and Present Danger. The Jack Ryan series is actually really good in my opinion. However, it is marred by the usual wokeness. Pretty much any movie or show that deals with Islamic extremism is going to have a Muslim main character, and an emphasis that the bad guy is driven by a legitimate gripe with the U.S. for bombing his village and not because he follows a harsh interpretation of Islam that demands the conquest of the world and the extermination of infidels.
Diamondback
03-07-21, 11:05
I agree that the only Clancy movies that are worth watching are Red October, Patriot Games, and Clear and Present Danger. The Jack Ryan series is actually really good in my opinion. However, it is marred by the usual wokeness. Pretty much any movie or show that deals with Islamic extremism is going to have a Muslim main character, and an emphasis that the bad guy is driven by a legitimate gripe with the U.S. for bombing his village and not because he follows a harsh interpretation of Islam that demands the conquest of the world and the extermination of infidels.
The only time I've really seen that Elephant in the Room addressed was in one 3rd-season episode of Criminal Minds. Dude the profilers were interviewing at Gitmo starts looking like "legit beef" storyline but is quickly turned into revealing himself as Islam Uber Alles.
I think the early seasons of NCIS did this too, though they were more the Cardboard Cutout "Bulletcatcher of the Week" variety without going as deep as CM in the Simon Mirren days.
BoringGuy45
03-07-21, 11:29
The only time I've really seen that Elephant in the Room addressed was in one 3rd-season episode of Criminal Minds. Dude the profilers were interviewing at Gitmo starts looking like "legit beef" storyline but is quickly turned into revealing himself as Islam Uber Alles.
I think the early seasons of NCIS did this too, though they were more the Cardboard Cutout "Bulletcatcher of the Week" variety without going as deep as CM in the Simon Mirren days.
The early seasons of 24 also addressed Islamofacism for what it is. Naturally, they took flack for it and apologized. Nowadays, there are only a few terrorist threats that are appropriate in Hollywood:
- American Neo-Nazis for reasons that don't need to be explained
- Arabs with legitimate gripes against the U.S. that have nothing to do with Islam
- Russian ultranationalists because, you know, that's really been a thing lately
- American Christian fundamentalists who want to establish a Handmaid's Tale regime
- Rogue American ex-SOF operators turned mercenary for some corrupt billionaire or wannabe dictator
Actual Islamic extremists who want to establish a worldwide totalitarian caliphate? The idea is so ridiculous that Hollywood doesn't even think you could suspend disbelief to accept the concept. :rolleyes:
ViniVidivici
03-07-21, 13:47
William Dafoe was a pretty good John Clark, but I am a Tom Clancy fan and still read the books when they come out.
But changing a character to fit the PC mindset is ridiculous....
I agree, he embodied Clark perfectly. It was one of the GOOD things about the movie version of CPD. For that matter, Ford was a great Ryan.
But this......see, thing is, if I'd never read WR twice, and known the story....I'd say, looks like a decent movie. Ex-SEAL out for revenge, looks fun.
But fuuck this virtue-signalling BS. There is ZERO reason to make him black.
And for that matter, changing the whole storyline to fit modern times is nothing more than pandering to the modern short attention span public.
I've been pining for a big screen WR for years, and this ain't it.
Might as well give it a Steven Segal type title, like "Hard to Rub Out", or "Steel Fingers of Vengence", or something.
BoringGuy45
03-07-21, 16:17
I agree, he embodied Clark perfectly. It was one of the GOOD things about the movie version of CPD. For that matter, Ford was a great Ryan.
But this......see, thing is, if I'd never read WR twice, and known the story....I'd say, looks like a decent movie. Ex-SEAL out for revenge, looks fun.
But fuuck this virtue-signalling BS. There is ZERO reason to make him black.
And for that matter, changing the whole storyline to fit modern times is nothing more than pandering to the modern short attention span public.
I've been pining for a big screen WR for years, and this ain't it.
Might as well give it a Steven Segal type title, like "Hard to Rub Out", or "Steel Fingers of Vengence", or something.
The worst part is that Rainbow Six is no doubt going to be a woke nightmare as well. I'm sure most of the Rainbow operators are going to Muslims, gays, trans, and feminist women who are constantly putting the straight male operators in their place for being pigs. I'm sure Ding Chavez will be changed from a Mexican-American kid from LA to an illegal immigrant. The white operators are going to have trouble being led by a black man as well. There's also no f**king way that the bad guys are going to be environmental extremists trying to wipe out the world to prevent global warming. No doubt it will be changed to an American Christian group believing they were sent by God to punish the world for sin. Or, perhaps, it'll be a Neo-Nazi group looking to wipe out the world so they can repopulate it with all white people. And, with the current events, the Ebola virus of the book will no doubt be changed a super COVID in the movie.
ViniVidivici
03-08-21, 00:23
Okay now you guys jogged my memory.....Sum of all Fears was a great book......but Ben Asslick was the WORST Jack Ryan in the history of all moviedom. Gary fookin' Coleman woulda been more believable......
Diamondback
03-08-21, 01:20
Unfortunately, Ben Awf--k was Clancy's own pick. :( Sadly, it appears Mace Neufeld is either suffering senile dementia or has lost his way, as he's been the prime-mover in production for the entire Clancy screen franchise and the decline post-C&PD has been entirely on his watch.
Okay now you guys jogged my memory.....Sum of all Fears was a great book......but Ben Asslick was the WORST Jack Ryan in the history of all moviedom. Gary fookin' Coleman woulda been more believable......
Hard to believe that Afleck, who was so good in Argo, was so f'ing bad in Sum of all Fears, but honestly once they made it about neo nazis, I didn't care that they screwed everything else up to.
As far as "black guys", Denzel Washington took an 80s movie called "Man on Fire" and blew the original out of the water. The original was about wealthy Italian families needing bodyguards against the threat of kidnapping. Scott Glenn played Creasy, Joe Pesci played his former partner and buddy and it was slow, dull and nobody saw it.
Denzel Washington and Christopher Walken came along and slam dunked it. Nobody cared that he played a white character in the original.
I get Clancy books are a bit different, if we made Chavez Norwegian it wouldn't work for many of the same reasons. It's because when we read the books, the characters were defined and set in memory and if you stray from that, it becomes a problem. Hell the relative ages of Clarke vs. Ryan in "Sum of all Fears" was a problem.
By the same token if you did the story of Malcom X starring Jackie Chan, it would be a problem. If you do the Bruce Lee story starring Michael Jai White, it would be a problem. And it's not that Michael Jai White doesn't actually have an impressive level of martial arts skills. It's that people care about Bruce Lee, Malcom X and Clancy characters and how they are presented.
Now if you are making Abraham Lincoln Vampire Killer, and you want Lincoln to be portrayed by Jackie Chan or Michael Jai White...go for it. I might even watch that POS if you put Jackie Chan or Michael Jai White in it, they might be able to save that stupid shit.
And that is the part I think Hollywood just doesn't grasp. The problem isn't the black guy being in the movie, the problem is the role. And the problem isn't making sure they don't have too important a role, because I don't think anyone is going to do a better James Greer anytime soon. I will always see James Earl Jones in that role and god help anyone who has to try and fill those shoes in any future production.
If Greer isn't black you are going to throw up the accepted Clancy definitions of the characters but even if he is black, he better be really good and able to step up. Maybe if Denzel is really old and has really filled out he could pull it off. But imagine he's played by an intrepid lesbian like Rooney Mara just to be fashionable, it's going to be a disaster.
I personally want to do the Amelia Earhart story starring Zhang Ziyi because why not?
Then I want to do the Katherine Hepburn story starring Joe Exotic because why not?
Then I want to do the Meryl Streep story starring Margaret Cho because why not?
Then I want to do the Martin Luther King story starring Jack Black because why not?
Then just maybe a few people might start to "get it."
Diamondback
03-08-21, 03:19
The only contender I can see other than JEJ for Greer is MAYBE Morgan Freeman--and that's a very BIG maybe--or as an extreme stretch an older Ving Rhames if he remembers to dial the ham WAAAY down. Frankly, before even seeing any of the movies, when I read the novels Jones was the face and voice I pictured him as.
10:1 odds that Michael B. Jordan will be the next Superman as well:
https://boundingintocomics.com/2021/02/26/rumor-j-j-abrams-new-superman-will-be-black-henry-cavill-out/
“ A new rumor claims that the recently announced Superman movie that is being produced by J.J. Abrams and written by radical left ideologue Ta-Nehisi Coates will feature a black Superman.
Later in the video, Randolph claims that Abrams is going to cast a Superman of color. She says, “He is going to go with a new Superman. And It’s going to be a Superman of color. Most likely a black actor.”
She adds, “And as you know Michael B. Jordan is someone that Warner Bros. has been like ‘maybe for Superman ‘ for awhile. So all signs point to… especially since they are calling it reboot in this coverage. That’s what I think they are doing. And it fits with the Latina Supergirl that Muschietti just cast.
In fact, Michael B. Jordan actually claimed in an interview with Oprah back in February 2019 that if he does play Superman it would Calvin Ellis, who is Kal-El from Earth 23 and becomes the President of the United States.
Jordan stated, “I would be Calvin Ellis. There’s another version of Superman from Earth-23. I’m a comic book guy…There’s another version of Superman in another dimension that is black already in the comic books that exist. I think the comic book purists can accept that more than Clark Kent from Kansas. That’s a different thing.”
Not as bad as Dale Brown's regular "how many beloved characters can I kill off this time without provoking a mass Reader Revolt" binges, but...
Don't get me started on Dale Brown killing off every-one! But I still love his books. I burned through Clancy and Brown novels in high school and college.
Patriot Games, Clear and Present Danger, and of course Hunt for Red October. Awesome. Wish they had done a mini-series on Red Storm Rising. Maybe with the 80s nostolgia and the rise of Russia they will do it- but I think they'd screw it up now. Since Ryan became POTUS, it has just lost it at the book level. The books got crappy, the movies (Sum of all Fears) got PC. That Prime Jack Ryan series had a pretty good 1st season, but they absolutely, totally, with no way to redeem themselves- jacked up the second season.
Red Storm Rising is my favorite book, and I re-read it every three years or so (about halfway through now). It is ripe for a mini-series.
Concur, Patriot Games, Clear and Present Danger are awesome, and I think The Hunt for Red October was the best film of the series. Sum of All Fears was just 'meh' at best if you nothing of the book, and utterly awful if you did know the book. I liked Jack Ryan, both seasons, but I also watched it knowing it had little to do with Clancy's Jack Ryan.
The only time I've really seen that Elephant in the Room addressed was in one 3rd-season episode of Criminal Minds. Dude the profilers were interviewing at Gitmo starts looking like "legit beef" storyline but is quickly turned into revealing himself as Islam Uber Alles.
I think the early seasons of NCIS did this too, though they were more the Cardboard Cutout "Bulletcatcher of the Week" variety without going as deep as CM in the Simon Mirren days.
Season 2 - Lessons Learned (I worked on the show for 11 years). Good episode and easier to write on the subject at the time because of what was going on in the world at the time. Same with the subway killings a couple of seasons later.
Sent from 80ms in the future
BoringGuy45
03-08-21, 10:02
Red Storm Rising is my favorite book, and I re-read it every three years or so (about halfway through now). It is ripe for a mini-series.
Concur, Patriot Games, Clear and Present Danger are awesome, and I think The Hunt for Red October was the best film of the series. Sum of All Fears was just 'meh' at best if you nothing of the book, and utterly awful if you did know the book. I liked Jack Ryan, both seasons, but I also watched it knowing it had little to do with Clancy's Jack Ryan.
Patriot Games was probably my favorite movie of the series and one of my favorite movies ever. Objectively, I think Red October was better quality and of course, Red October is also one of my favorite movies. Clear and Present Danger was decent, but I thought it got really slow, and it was hard to follow at points.
The more that Ryanverse works are released, the more I'm convinced that most of Clancy's works really have to be period pieces. Clancy's themes just don't seem to work outside of the Cold War and immediate post-Cold War periods. Too much has changed in just the past 10 years that Jack Ryan and John Clark, as we know them, don't fit into the current world as young, up and coming characters.
Patriot Games was probably my favorite movie of the series and one of my favorite movies ever. Objectively, I think Red October was better quality and of course, Red October is also one of my favorite movies. Clear and Present Danger was decent, but I thought it got really slow, and it was hard to follow at points.
The more that Ryanverse works are released, the more I'm convinced that most of Clancy's works really have to be period pieces. Clancy's themes just don't seem to work outside of the Cold War and immediate post-Cold War periods. Too much has changed in just the past 10 years that Jack Ryan and John Clark, as we know them, don't fit into the current world as young, up and coming characters.
Totally agree. I tell my wife one of the reasons I like Red Storm Rising so much is because it reminds me of the time Reagan had invested so much in the military (our military was HUGE!), and we had an identifiable foe. Reading it today almost makes me nostalgic.
I agree that the only Clancy movies that are worth watching are Red October, Patriot Games, and Clear and Present Danger. The Jack Ryan series is actually really good in my opinion. However, it is marred by the usual wokeness. Pretty much any movie or show that deals with Islamic extremism is going to have a Muslim main character, and an emphasis that the bad guy is driven by a legitimate gripe with the U.S. for bombing his village and not because he follows a harsh interpretation of Islam that demands the conquest of the world and the extermination of infidels.
Agree for the most part. The Jack Ryan series just feels like it has a hand tied behind it's back with how far they are really willing to go. I look a Narco's or Stranger Things, or whatever series is popular currently (which there is way too many to keep track of), but it doesn't quite do justice to the character, at the same time the wokeness is there but it isn't slamming you in the face as some others do. I'm not sure why it feels a little lack luster, possibly because John Krasinski doesn't carry the conviction that Harrison Ford or Alec Baldwin did to the character, and while I liked him in 13 Hours, I think that James Dale Badge, Max Martini, Pablo Schreiber did a better job of carrying Krasinski's performance forward.
I don't have have an issue with Michael B. Jordan in this, and I think he's a pretty good actor, but I think that Tom Clancy had a way of portraying a guy who could not only beat you with a gun, but on a chessboard as well, and it will be interesting to see how Michael can portray that side of the character.
ViniVidivici
03-08-21, 11:28
When I was a Ligjtfighter, and we'd train with mech units in huge exercises, with tanks, IFVs, and trucks everywhere, sounds of engines, diesel fumes permeating the air, I'd think of scenes from Res Storm Rising.
Hell, part of the fun of serving in 7th ID was that Domingo Chavez had too!
But we called it Manchu Hair, never "cabbage patch".......
Grand58742
03-08-21, 12:28
Don't get me started on Dale Brown killing off every-one! But I still love his books. I burned through Clancy and Brown novels in high school and college.
Killed off some, brought them back, killed them off again.
Brown was really a time period guy in his first half dozen books or so. I haven't read anything recent of his, but I enjoyed his first works.
Having said that to say this, a lot of Clancy's first works were time period pieces that "could" be plausible as to them actually happening (other than Red Storm Rising of course) but only during that time. Hunt, Cardinal, PG, Clear, Sum of all Fears, Without Remorse etc were all good books that had readers believing in the possibility and without going crazy with the fictional items. I mean, except for a stealth Soviet sub, which, again was plausible enough for techno-thriller of the day.
I enjoyed everything Clancy put out until Bear and the Dragon when he got a little silly with Russia joining NATO. Enjoyable though.
Anyway, I think that's the main difference in Brown and Clancy that Clancy used the "here and now" tech and Brown kinda went overboard with the "cool daddy toys" aspect.
Grand58742
03-08-21, 12:35
William Dafoe was a pretty good John Clark, but I am a Tom Clancy fan and still read the books when they come out.
But changing a character to fit the PC mindset is ridiculous....
Dafoe was good. Age, mannerisms, the look.
I do think Liev Schreiber was a good Clark even though he was younger than the novels portrayed.
I don't mind a non-Caucasian as Clark. I think there can be more variability than with Ryan.
I liked Dafoe, Schrieber was OK. I could see John Hoogenakker doing it again. Keanu Reeves. John Bernthal (The Accountant). I think there are handful who could pull it off.
.....Hunt, Cardinal, PG, Clear, Sum of all Fears, Without Remorse etc were all good books that had readers believing in the possibility and without going crazy with the fictional items. I mean, except for a stealth Soviet sub, which, again was plausible enough for techno-thriller of the day.
I recall reading that the DOD/DIA's curiosity was piqued because they thought Clancy had access to classified information, when in reality he had gotten it from some war games at the time. I think one thing that made him successful in most of his stuff was the believability. I think the one I liked least was Debt of Honor because I thought it was least believable.
BoringGuy45
03-08-21, 14:06
I recall reading that the DOD/DIA's curiosity was piqued because they thought Clancy had access to classified information, when in reality he had gotten it from some war games at the time. I think one thing that made him successful in most of his stuff was the believability. I think the one I liked least was Debt of Honor because I thought it was least believable.
My uncle said he gave up on Tom Clancy because of Debt of Honor, but for the most tragically ironic reason: The book as a whole was good, but he thought the idea of terrorists hijacking an airliner and using it to bomb a building was crazy. I remember him saying that only about a year before it was proven to be very real.
Grand58742
03-08-21, 15:05
I recall reading that the DOD/DIA's curiosity was piqued because they thought Clancy had access to classified information, when in reality he had gotten it from some war games at the time. I think one thing that made him successful in most of his stuff was the believability. I think the one I liked least was Debt of Honor because I thought it was least believable.
The Japanese angle was certainly something I didn't find very plausible.
Of course, the ending certainly wasn't plausible until 9/11 as BG just pointed out.
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-08-21, 15:22
As far as "black guys", Denzel Washington took an 80s movie called "Man on Fire" and blew the original out of the water. The original was about wealthy Italian families needing bodyguards against the threat of kidnapping. Scott Glenn played Creasy, Joe Pesci played his former partner and buddy and it was slow, dull and nobody saw it.
Denzel Washington and Christopher Walken came along and slam dunked it. Nobody cared that he played a white character in the original.
There are certainly occasions where moving away from the book will lead to a better movie, Man on Fire is one of them. The book is great if you read it with the frame of mind that it was written in the 70s. The 80s movie version was bad, so very bad, because they tried real hard to make it feel like the book.
Man on Fire 2004 worked so well because Mexico is a more believable locale for such things to happen, and because they got one of the best actors of our time to play Creasy.
This movie version of Without Remorse just seems to be using a familiar title, there's not much from the book in the trailers I've seen.
Michael B Jordan is a good actor, from his role as Wallace in The Wire to more recent films, but I don't think he's the right actor to pull off Clark. I'm not sure who I would have chosen to play Clark, but it wouldn't have been him.
ViniVidivici
03-08-21, 15:26
My uncle said he gave up on Tom Clancy because of Debt of Honor, but for the most tragically ironic reason: The book as a whole was good, but he thought the idea of terrorists hijacking an airliner and using it to bomb a building was crazy. I remember him saying that only about a year before it was proven to be very real.
Yeah, I'll never forget the morning of Sep 11, '01 coming in to work, hearing what was going on, my VERY first thought was it was like something out of a Clancy book, specifically that right there, at the end of Debt of Honor.
Clancy's stuff's really been a part of my life, now that I think about it.....
Michael B Jordan is a good actor, from his role as Wallace in The Wire to more recent films, but I don't think he's the right actor to pull off Clark. I'm not sure who I would have chosen to play Clark, but it wouldn't have been him.
DAMN IT!! I love the Wire and totally didn't recognize him, I feel like an idiot, but good on you for pointing that out.
DAMN IT!! I love the Wire and totally didn't recognize him, I feel like an idiot, but good on you for pointing that out.
Don't feel bad. Got me too, love the wire, didn't notice.
Grand58742
03-08-21, 15:53
Michael B Jordan is a good actor, from his role as Wallace in The Wire to more recent films, but I don't think he's the right actor to pull off Clark. I'm not sure who I would have chosen to play Clark, but it wouldn't have been him.
These days on an actual 1960s or early 70s Without Remorse?
Tom Hardy. Not sure about the huge build though.
Scott Eastwood.
Zac Efron.
Joe Dempsie.
Richard Madden.
Just off the top of my head.
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-08-21, 15:54
DAMN IT!! I love the Wire and totally didn't recognize him, I feel like an idiot, but good on you for pointing that out.
Don't feel bad. Got me too, love the wire, didn't notice.
If you'd asked me during the first season in 2002 which of the actors playing the young street kids would go on to become a leading man in Hollywood, I would have never picked Wallace. I would have probably said the kid that played Bodie.
The Wire was pure television genius.
The Wire was pure television genius.
100%, I bring it up when people ask what my favorite movie is, I know it is a show, but the character development, the story, the acting, all of it is so damn good.
Diamondback
03-08-21, 17:22
Don't get me started on Dale Brown killing off every-one! But I still love his books. I burned through Clancy and Brown novels in high school and college.
Make me feel like a whelp, whydon'cha? Same from late elementary to high school, in fact my ENGL 103 final argument paper was on the feasibility of not just Old Dogging a B-52, but pushing the concept to the limit of available technology. Mom forwarded it to somebody she knew at Wichita, and got us an invite as the only non-gov/B-52 Program civilians at the BUFF 50th Birthday party. :)
Not as farfetched and fantastical as Clive Cussler (RIP, old gearhead), who was actually a required read to join my fraternity. LOL
Diamondback
03-08-21, 17:38
Season 2 - Lessons Learned (I worked on the show for 11 years). Good episode and easier to write on the subject at the time because of what was going on in the world at the time. Same with the subway killings a couple of seasons later.
Sent from 80ms in the future
Funny thing... my psych profs actually ASSIGNED me to watch CM as part of studying Behavioral Analysis. :) This should probably go to a different thread, but any fun on-set stories you might feel like sharing?
Hard to believe that Afleck, who was so good in Argo, was so f'ing bad in Sum of all Fears, but honestly once they made it about neo nazis, I didn't care that they screwed everything else up to.
As far as "black guys", Denzel Washington took an 80s movie called "Man on Fire" and blew the original out of the water. The original was about wealthy Italian families needing bodyguards against the threat of kidnapping. Scott Glenn played Creasy, Joe Pesci played his former partner and buddy and it was slow, dull and nobody saw it.
Denzel Washington and Christopher Walken came along and slam dunked it. Nobody cared that he played a white character in the original.
I get Clancy books are a bit different, if we made Chavez Norwegian it wouldn't work for many of the same reasons. It's because when we read the books, the characters were defined and set in memory and if you stray from that, it becomes a problem. Hell the relative ages of Clarke vs. Ryan in "Sum of all Fears" was a problem.
By the same token if you did the story of Malcom X starring Jackie Chan, it would be a problem. If you do the Bruce Lee story starring Michael Jai White, it would be a problem. And it's not that Michael Jai White doesn't actually have an impressive level of martial arts skills. It's that people care about Bruce Lee, Malcom X and Clancy characters and how they are presented.
Now if you are making Abraham Lincoln Vampire Killer, and you want Lincoln to be portrayed by Jackie Chan or Michael Jai White...go for it. I might even watch that POS if you put Jackie Chan or Michael Jai White in it, they might be able to save that stupid shit.
And that is the part I think Hollywood just doesn't grasp. The problem isn't the black guy being in the movie, the problem is the role. And the problem isn't making sure they don't have too important a role, because I don't think anyone is going to do a better James Greer anytime soon. I will always see James Earl Jones in that role and god help anyone who has to try and fill those shoes in any future production.
If Greer isn't black you are going to throw up the accepted Clancy definitions of the characters but even if he is black, he better be really good and able to step up. Maybe if Denzel is really old and has really filled out he could pull it off. But imagine he's played by an intrepid lesbian like Rooney Mara just to be fashionable, it's going to be a disaster.
I personally want to do the Amelia Earhart story starring Zhang Ziyi because why not?
Then I want to do the Katherine Hepburn story starring Joe Exotic because why not?
Then I want to do the Meryl Streep story starring Margaret Cho because why not?
Then I want to do the Martin Luther King story starring Jack Black because why not?
Then just maybe a few people might start to "get it."
Exactly. They are making decisions based entirely on nutjob post religious dogma rather than a focus on good story telling.
I recall reading that the DOD/DIA's curiosity was piqued because they thought Clancy had access to classified information, when in reality he had gotten it from some war games at the time.
As most from that era know, Hunt took off when a reporter asked Ronald Reagan what he was reading. SECNAV John Lehman wanted a leak investigation when he read Hunt. Clancy was invited to speak at CIA in 1986. He said he got most of his tech system info from Janes Defence. But most of the info that was classified in the book was already publicly known. Other classified info he got from interviewing retired Russian submariners.
DAMN IT!! I love the Wire and totally didn't recognize him, I feel like an idiot, but good on you for pointing that out.
Me too..I didn't recognize Wallace as Michael B Jordan until now.....
The Wire was a great show....I hoped they would have done one more season....
I agree, he embodied Clark perfectly. It was one of the GOOD things about the movie version of CPD. For that matter, Ford was a great Ryan.
But this......see, thing is, if I'd never read WR twice, and known the story....I'd say, looks like a decent movie. Ex-SEAL out for revenge, looks fun.
But fuuck this virtue-signalling BS. There is ZERO reason to make him black.
And for that matter, changing the whole storyline to fit modern times is nothing more than pandering to the modern short attention span public.
I've been pining for a big screen WR for years, and this ain't it.
Might as well give it a Steven Segal type title, like "Hard to Rub Out", or "Steel Fingers of Vengence", or something.
Yup. Harrison Ford really brought the character to life...
Hard to believe that Afleck, who was so good in Argo, was so f'ing bad in Sum of all Fears, but honestly once they made it about neo nazis, I didn't care that they screwed everything else up to.
As far as "black guys", Denzel Washington took an 80s movie called "Man on Fire" and blew the original out of the water. The original was about wealthy Italian families needing bodyguards against the threat of kidnapping. Scott Glenn played Creasy, Joe Pesci played his former partner and buddy and it was slow, dull and nobody saw it.
Denzel Washington and Christopher Walken came along and slam dunked it. Nobody cared that he played a white character in the original.
I get Clancy books are a bit different, if we made Chavez Norwegian it wouldn't work for many of the same reasons. It's because when we read the books, the characters were defined and set in memory and if you stray from that, it becomes a problem. Hell the relative ages of Clarke vs. Ryan in "Sum of all Fears" was a problem.
By the same token if you did the story of Malcom X starring Jackie Chan, it would be a problem. If you do the Bruce Lee story starring Michael Jai White, it would be a problem. And it's not that Michael Jai White doesn't actually have an impressive level of martial arts skills. It's that people care about Bruce Lee, Malcom X and Clancy characters and how they are presented.
Now if you are making Abraham Lincoln Vampire Killer, and you want Lincoln to be portrayed by Jackie Chan or Michael Jai White...go for it. I might even watch that POS if you put Jackie Chan or Michael Jai White in it, they might be able to save that stupid shit.
And that is the part I think Hollywood just doesn't grasp. The problem isn't the black guy being in the movie, the problem is the role. And the problem isn't making sure they don't have too important a role, because I don't think anyone is going to do a better James Greer anytime soon. I will always see James Earl Jones in that role and god help anyone who has to try and fill those shoes in any future production.
If Greer isn't black you are going to throw up the accepted Clancy definitions of the characters but even if he is black, he better be really good and able to step up. Maybe if Denzel is really old and has really filled out he could pull it off. But imagine he's played by an intrepid lesbian like Rooney Mara just to be fashionable, it's going to be a disaster.
I personally want to do the Amelia Earhart story starring Zhang Ziyi because why not?
Then I want to do the Katherine Hepburn story starring Joe Exotic because why not?
Then I want to do the Meryl Streep story starring Margaret Cho because why not?
Then I want to do the Martin Luther King story starring Jack Black because why not?
Then just maybe a few people might start to "get it."
Amen. Greer is James Earl Jones, as you said, and if someone else fills the shoes, he better be the equal. Just want to AMEN this 1000%
I am an avid Tolkien fan and for that reason -- even though they are not doing the really stupid stuff -- I don't like the movies. They change things from what is expected by people who know and understand the story -- things that don't need to be changed. I get it that some things need to be left out, to make a book into a 3 hour movie. But you don't need to totally change stuff. Same with the Clancy stuff. Fans know the story so give them the story. Fans know the characters, so give them the characters. It is not about race, or ethnicity, or anything. It is about the characters and the expectations that come from knowing the original story. This ain't some new story where you have a clean slate -- it is a known story.
BoringGuy45
03-08-21, 21:03
Amen. Greer is James Earl Jones, as you said, and if someone else fills the shoes, he better be the equal. Just want to AMEN this 1000%
The only actor I can see replacing James Earl Jones in the role and pulling it off well is Lawrence Fishburn.
The only actor I can see replacing James Earl Jones in the role and pulling it off well is Lawrence Fishburn.
I think Fishburne will always be "too cool for school" and that wasn't Greer. Greer was an Admiral and there wasn't any "hip hop be bop" about him so that pretty much rules Fishburne out. Been a fan of Fishburne (mostly) since Apocalypse Now when he tore up the Sampan with the M-60 and he's done some impressive stuff since then, but I don't see Greer.
Washington is a really strong actor, in fact so good he made Grade A POS scumbag drug dealer Frank Lucas come across as "dignified", so I think maybe he could pull it off. But Jones has a lot of roles under his belt and "the voice", I mean he was Darth Vader fer ****s sake. But maybe plays characters too slick when Greer is by the book and doesn't have to hustle because he's already arrived at the answer. He was the only one in the building more ahead of the game than Ryan. Ryan was something of a protege to Greer.
As an aside, while everyone is doing "Strong Black Characters" month and "Spotlight on BLM" films, nobody thinks to show the Clancy trilogy with James Earl Jones as Greer. But try and find a stronger black character in film, they keep showing me BS.
Diamondback
03-09-21, 00:43
As an aside, while everyone is doing "Strong Black Characters" month and "Spotlight on BLM" films, nobody thinks to show the Clancy trilogy with James Earl Jones as Greer. But try and find a stronger black character in film, they keep showing me BS.
Excellent point. Problem is Greer, while he's the right skin color for them, is what they'd call an Uncle Tom or Oreo and *I'd* call a good role-model for anyone regardless of demographics. (ISTR Leftodouches really don't like JEJ much because he's not only conservative but a former Army officer... so when he's depicting a leader role on the screen it has that un-fakeable quality of someone who's done it for real.) Same could be said of Samuel L Jackson's depictions of Nick Fury in the MCU and Gibbons in XXX, or Denzel Washington as the big-screen Equalizer... (Setting my objections to the complete gutting of the original Robert McCall character aside, DW's Nu-McCall is a well-written and well-acted character who again is a positive example.)
ViniVidivici
03-09-21, 01:01
I think Steve Harvey would make a good Admiral Greer.
Diamondback
03-09-21, 01:05
I think Steve Harvey would make a good Admiral Greer.
In theory... IF he can dial the Large Ham down a bit.
Excellent point. Problem is Greer, while he's the right skin color for them, is what they'd call an Uncle Tom or Oreo and *I'd* call a good role-model for anyone regardless of demographics. (ISTR Leftodouches really don't like JEJ much because he's not only conservative but a former Army officer... so when he's depicting a leader role on the screen it has that un-fakeable quality of someone who's done it for real.) Same could be said of Samuel L Jackson's depictions of Nick Fury in the MCU and Gibbons in XXX, or Denzel Washington as the big-screen Equalizer... (Setting my objections to the complete gutting of the original Robert McCall character aside, DW's Nu-McCall is a well-written and well-acted character who again is a positive example.)
So he's senior in rank to all the white people except the President AND he's smarter than all of them and he's the one that the main character goes to, when he can't figure things out. That's an odd Uncle Tom, how much more "boss" do they need? This ain't Will Smith teaching Kevin James to dance in Hitch.
I'll go ahead and say it, they don't put Greer up as an example because he got there through hard work, hard study and being an honorable and dependable person who could responsibly be in such a position. He didn't achieve Admiral by scamming or scheming, hustling or finding a weakness in the system. As a consequence "important black film" presented as role models will always show "American Gangster" before they ever show "Patriot Games."
Baffles me that enough black people can be scammed into the idea that they are somehow beholden to a larger "black community" with it's own rules, regs and consequences. And I thought blind faith to Mormonism and Scientology was idiotic. You would think that a group that is comprised of so many members who are sensitive to things like slavery in the past wouldn't volunteer to be subject to the wants and needs of other black people they never even met. It's like me deciding to do everything Biden says and support everything Biden believes simply because we are the same color.
I'd much rather take direction from James Greer, he seems to know what he's talking about.
In theory... IF he can dial the Large Ham down a bit.
I almost thought maybe Neil DeGrasse Tyson, not an actor, but I can see him pulling it off.
Grand58742
03-09-21, 06:59
I almost thought maybe Neil DeGrasse Tyson, not an actor, but I can see him pulling it off.
I couldn't look at him and not think "Nerd Alert!"
Dennis Haysbert could pull it off, I think.
I couldn't look at him and not think "Nerd Alert!"
Dennis Haysbert could pull it off, I think.
Dennis Haysbert would get my vote for the next, legitimate Adm. Greer. He seems to have the right on-screen attitude and can look like he is always thinking a few steps ahead, much like JEJ did in the role.
WillieThom
03-09-21, 11:35
Dennis Haysbert could pull it off, I think.
Dennis Haysbert would get my vote for the next, legitimate Adm. Greer. He seems to have the right on-screen attitude and can look like he is always thinking a few steps ahead, much like JEJ did in the role.
Go for Blane.
Grand58742
03-09-21, 12:00
Go for Blane.
He certainly rocked that role and I felt was a good representative of an SGM.
Tom Clancy had okay ideas but he was a hack writer. Also blackwashing is stupid. There aren’t that many Navy SEALs and even fewer black Navy SEALs.
The only blackwashing I ever agreed with was Man on Fire. The original movie was made in the 80s and it had an interesting plot but it was boring. Only worth a watch as a time capsule of the day. But you know Denzel is just a really good actor. I can’t think of any movies of his I didn’t enjoy. He made Man on Fire entertaining.
And Blackwashing is also saying “you aren’t interesting on your own so we’ll just pretend this white character was written with you in mind”
I mean why can’t you have a movie about a black guy, who does black guy things, has a black wife, and gets things done? Used to happen all the time in the 80s and 90s.
Beverly Hills Cop, Blade, DC Cab. Just like popping them with a white girl. That’s basically saying to black girls and women “See the hero? He’s badass and cool. And he doesn’t find you attractive and he never will.”
And if you’re a black woman you either gotta go with a white guy, have “good hair”, or you gotta be an angry black lesbian who don’t need no man.
It’s cruel.
Diamondback
03-11-21, 19:51
Bonus, Greer was a mustang, came up the ranks the hard way from the bottom via OCS--IIRC his first mentioned career datapoint in the books is as a seaman second on USS Texas in WWII.
OMG this was awful.
Bad plot, bad acting, bad casting, bad continuity.
Full blown disaster.
OMG this was awful.
Bad plot, bad acting, bad casting, bad continuity.
Full blown disaster.
I almost agree with you 100%. I liked the plot but it was not executed well. This movie was bad and Mike b Jordan has some real bad acting. Gun skill was also low level on all characters. I wanted to like this movie, didn't care what color the actors where. I watched till the end and that's when I thought damn that was a clever plot, but the movie was so bad and like I said the plot was purely executed.
Ready.Fire.Aim
04-30-21, 23:25
Horrible, checks every woke box, especially the ending.
Apparently active duty SEAL commits murder of foreign nationals.
Goes to civilian prison, not a brig or civilian jail, awaiting trial.
Now going on secret mission assigned personally by Sec. of Navy - but will return to prison.
Jump from passenger jet into Russia. With no mission brief.
“Team” has no familiarity with exfil plan.
CPO pops female SEAL Lt. Cmdr upside the head while she is sitting on plane.
Black team members blend right in in Northern Russia city.
Who wrote this garbage?
It was a fun action movie. But even as a civilian I could identify the crazy and unrealistic shit in it.
I am fine with unrealistic. But something with Tom Clancy’s name attached to it is expected to be pretty accurate.
I was very disappointed....Tom Clancy should rise from his grave and strangle the writers..
Attempted to watch last night. Turned it off after 10 minutes. I really hope Amazon doesn’t destroy The Terminal List next.
Attempted to watch last night. Turned it off after 10 minutes. I really hope Amazon doesn’t destroy The Terminal List next.
I think the Terminal List is good hands with Antoine Fuqua directing and Jack Carr being hands on with it as well.
I watched Without Remorse last night. It was disappointing. The book is my favorite by Clancy. They could have went so many other directions and kept the plot and theme more true to the source material.
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Just when you think rock bottom is as low as you can go, when there is nothing left but darkness and bleakness, this movie shattered that paradigm and discovered new depths of awfulness.
Clancy must be turning over in his grave. I need to be repeatedly kicked in the crotch and have bleach poured in my eyes just to get the awful images out of my head.
For me, when even the trailer is eye rolling social woke meh, I'm unlikely to watch it.
To me the only redeeming part was a kick ass chick in the teams (see: Chief Shannon Kent). But even then....
For me, when even the trailer is eye rolling social woke meh, I'm unlikely to watch it.
Outside of the casting there isn’t really any woke social justice stuff in the movie. It’s not a good movie, but it’s not as bad as people are making it sound.
It’s more of a throwback to the 80s and 90s action movies. Not much logic or reason, realism nonexistent and lots of shooting and explosions. More like a remake of Commando than a Tom Clancy adaptation.
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Outside of the casting there isn’t really any woke social justice stuff in the movie. It’s not a good movie, but it’s not as bad as people are making it sound.
It’s more of a throwback to the 80s and 90s action movies. Not much logic or reason, realism nonexistent and lots of shooting and explosions. More like a remake of Commando than a Tom Clancy adaptation.
Good to know, thanx. Sounds awful. I'll go re watch Commando if needed. :cool:
Just reading that they changed the storyline really ended it for me. I don't care how much bang bang shoot'em up you put in a movie, if the story is screwed up, it's not good. I was looking forward to the movie because of the BOOK, great story telling, interesting characters. I'm out of this one.
I won’t watch this tripe and hated the book vehemently when I read it the first time in the 90s. That said I wanted to see .22 1911 Suppressed murder and a dude in the hyperbaric chamber.
I won’t watch this tripe and hated the book vehemently when I read it the first time in the 90s. That said I wanted to see .22 1911 Suppressed murder and a dude in the hyperbaric chamber.
I was told that was one of his better books, but I couldn't finish any of his books but Rainbow Six, and that was average at best I thought. I found some of the movie versions were solid movies, but I personally thought he was a wildly overrated writer myself.
Rainbow Six was actually kinda dumb in retrospect but at the time I read it because of the video game.
Red Storm Rising wasn’t all that great but was entertaining because of WW3. I did think the love subplot was lame.
Actually I liked the Patriot Games movie just because, at the time, watching SAS smoke a training camp was super bleeding edge.
Past all that I think Tom Clancy had some novel ideas and wasn’t afraid to be a technical geek with guns and equipment at a time when most people just wrote “So and So had a .45”
But his words were brusque and he had this worldview that I found evil and gross. His fixation on the Soviet Union was the equivalent was like that of Yakov Smirnoff; amusing for the time but beyond dated now.
Rainbow Six was actually kinda dumb in retrospect but at the time I read it because of the video game.
Red Storm Rising wasn’t all that great but was entertaining because of WW3. I did think the love subplot was lame.
Actually I liked the Patriot Games movie just because, at the time, watching SAS smoke a training camp was super bleeding edge.
Past all that I think Tom Clancy had some novel ideas and wasn’t afraid to be a technical geek with guns and equipment at a time when most people just wrote “So and So had a .45”
But his words were brusque and he had this worldview that I found evil and gross. His fixation on the Soviet Union was the equivalent was like that of Yakov Smirnoff; amusing for the time but beyond dated now.
Was that one where the Japanese decided to get revenge for WWII? If so, that was one of the books I'd started and put down maybe a hundred pages in cuz I thought was awful.
Pacific5th
05-01-21, 16:39
I loved Red Storm Rising. In the Ryan books Hunt For Redoctober, Sum of all Fears is great and so is Without Remorse. The rest are anywhere from good to boring. Once the Cold War ended it seemed he lost a lot of ability and his world view got kind of lame.
Rainbow Six was actually kinda dumb in retrospect but at the time I read it because of the video game.
Red Storm Rising wasn’t all that great but was entertaining because of WW3. I did think the love subplot was lame.
Actually I liked the Patriot Games movie just because, at the time, watching SAS smoke a training camp was super bleeding edge.
Past all that I think Tom Clancy had some novel ideas and wasn’t afraid to be a technical geek with guns and equipment at a time when most people just wrote “So and So had a .45”
But his words were brusque and he had this worldview that I found evil and gross. His fixation on the Soviet Union was the equivalent was like that of Yakov Smirnoff; amusing for the time but beyond dated now.
As a book? Red Storm Rising was the book against which all others are measured, the metric. But most of his books were stellar.
Was that one where the Japanese decided to get revenge for WWII? If so, that was one of the books I'd started and put down maybe a hundred pages in cuz I thought was awful.
No. In fact I believe Red Storm Rising happens outside the normal Jack Ryan Universe that Clancy is known for. It is purely a WW3 novel between Nato and Russia.
You are thinking of Debt of Honor. Which was pretty Meh by Tom Clancy standards.
As a book? Red Storm Rising was the book against which all others are measured, the metric. But most of his books were stellar.
I liked that book but there were some parts that were dumb. I wish they would do a Snyder Cut of the book with the romance taken out and some of the Tech corrected for accuracy like the F-19 is the F-117. He was actually correct in the capability that it could “snipe” enemy AWACS planes as told on a podcast by an F-117 pilot.
I mean if you ever played Operation Flashpoint, it was essentially Red Storm Rising the game.
I remember being super bored one night up in the cabin as a teen and reading it by lamp and firelight. The Cold War was long over by then but it was still great. I read it in one sitting.
I can only imagine what reading it on its first week in the 80s was like. But overall he simply wasn’t an author I went out of my way for.
WillieThom
05-03-21, 16:54
I had to give it a shot last night. It was pretty ridiculous and I chuckled throughout. But I was also entertained. I guess I’m just easy like that.
Had they not used Without Remorse, Clancy or Clark/Kelly the movie would have been a half decent action flick. Not a good one, but one slightly better than say The Expendables. It may have even gotten decent reviews, but I think shitting on John Kelly/Clark’s character like they did, screwing up Ritters character and turning Greer into a female SEAL with a twig like build isn’t going to do then any favors.
Hope they dont screw up Rainbow Six next as the post credit scene implies.
Also hope Jack Carr watched that and got a serious case of pucker factor about the contract he signed for Terminal List.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-03-21, 21:54
I won’t watch this tripe and hated the book vehemently when I read it the first time in the 90s. That said I wanted to see .22 1911 Suppressed murder and a dude in the hyperbaric chamber.
Exactly. I don't know why they made this a Clancy movie. It didn't really seem like the book at all.
I loved Red Storm Rising. In the Ryan books Hunt For Redoctober, Sum of all Fears is great and so is Without Remorse. The rest are anywhere from good to boring. Once the Cold War ended it seemed he lost a lot of ability and his world view got kind of lame.
RSR for me was a page turner. Like 7 stories intertwined. Rueben James and the anti-sub warfare was my favorite. If you didn't like the love story, you weren't picturing the right nordic blond chick.... I read it when it was relevant. The gear and the tactics, were so much better than anything out side of pure history.
I had to give it a shot last night. It was pretty ridiculous and I chuckled throughout. But I was also entertained. I guess I’m just easy like that.
I thought it was OK, but didn't live up to the book or better Clancy movies.
Exactly the book was pretty much Death Wish with a Vietnam Era Navy SEAL and a few KGB thrown in.
Popping in a black dude and updating the time frame and tossing in forced diversity strips it of what itty bitty charm it sorta had.
Like a morbid part of me sees the novelty of stalking the ghetto and zapping a pimp with a .22 1911.
Not night vision. Not fancy guns. Just an honest 1911 rechambered to .22 and doing ominous deeds. It’s a pulp novel grittiness and grimness that you can’t do with 4K UHD and CGI.
It’s a late night, VHS grind house affair with light and shadow. They should have stuck to the material.
donlapalma
05-03-21, 22:29
Watched it last night. Regretted it. Why didn't I see this thread earlier?!
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Diamondback
05-03-21, 22:49
screwing up Ritters character
Was there EVER ANY good in Ritter, book or movie? Henry Czerny did really well opposite Ford portraying him as a meatpipe-smoking POS who shoulda gotten a midnight visit from a sharp knife and Willem Dafoe's Clark...
Really, IMO to do Without Remorse, RSR or Sum of All Fears justice they need to be made as TV miniseries. Clancy was rather a Neocon and Establishment Republican, and his works much like Ian Fleming definitely need to be evaluated in context of their time setting.
The movie was a major disappointment. Book was excellent. Read Tom Clancy stuff so long ago I think it's time for a re read.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-04-21, 00:59
Going back to my first-post/OP, they should have kept 'Garth' from the Prime Jack Ryan series and made him Clark. Hell, he was already Clark.
So I think Michael B Jordan was decent in it, I think he's going to be the next Bruce Willis or action star and I hope he excels. The movie had a few decent action scenes, but the script felt lifeless and every other character was stale as subway bread. The book is too often better, and I'll probably go back to read it later. Honestly, I really want to see someone take this and make it a series worth the books, I didn't mind the first and second seasons of Jack Ryan, I would just love more of a Sicario and 13 Hours mixed vibe to truly breath some life and action into the series, I'm not sure what that would take, but that is what I would really like to see.
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-04-21, 14:06
Exactly the book was pretty much Death Wish with a Vietnam Era Navy SEAL and a few KGB thrown in.
Popping in a black dude and updating the time frame and tossing in forced diversity strips it of what itty bitty charm it sorta had.
Like a morbid part of me sees the novelty of stalking the ghetto and zapping a pimp with a .22 1911.
Not night vision. Not fancy guns. Just an honest 1911 rechambered to .22 and doing ominous deeds. It’s a pulp novel grittiness and grimness that you can’t do with 4K UHD and CGI.
It’s a late night, VHS grind house affair with light and shadow. They should have stuck to the material.
Other than the tranny porn, you and I seem to have similar taste and expectations for our casual viewing entertainment.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-04-21, 15:32
So, to get their SEAL cred, they needed a water scene early, and all they could put together was a puddle to jump out of....
davidjinks
05-04-21, 16:21
I am not a fan of Clancy’s books. But the movies based off his books have been really good, up until this one. I watched about 15 minutes of it and turned it off. Wasn’t my cup of tea. I watched Patriot Games instead.
https://youtu.be/mtGjZp3MWrI
I don't know. After the second season of Jack Ryan being a complete turd-show on Prime, I don't know if I trust them. So this would be Clark, right? After they killed of the real Clark in the new Jack Ryan series?
It looks like a good movie. I just don't think any of the Tom Clancy universe movies or books have been worth a crap in the last 20 years.
Patriot Games, Clear and Present Danger, and of course Hunt for Red October. Awesome. Wish they had done a mini-series on Red Storm Rising. Maybe with the 80s nostolgia and the rise of Russia they will do it- but I think they'd screw it up now. Since Ryan became POTUS, it has just lost it at the book level. The books got crappy, the movies (Sum of all Fears) got PC. That Prime Jack Ryan series had a pretty good 1st season, but they absolutely, totally, with no way to redeem themselves- jacked up the second season.
Someone better get put into a decom-pressure chamber, or I'm calling foul in the whole thing...
Was there EVER ANY good in Ritter, book or movie? Henry Czerny did really well opposite Ford portraying him as a meatpipe-smoking POS who shoulda gotten a midnight visit from a sharp knife and Willem Dafoe's Clark...
Really, IMO to do Without Remorse, RSR or Sum of All Fears justice they need to be made as TV miniseries. Clancy was rather a Neocon and Establishment Republican, and his works much like Ian Fleming definitely need to be evaluated in context of their time setting.
They need to counteract this with "Clark"... A really dark thriller with Willem Dafoe or even Tom Hardy playing Clark, where he is just a CIA wet job guy...sometimes he pulls the trigger or commands others to, but it needs to devoid of human emotion except for flashbacks of Without Remorse scenes...
kaiservontexas
05-04-21, 18:16
Already did it with "Sum of All Fears" because it is neo nazis who will want to nuke us.
Sum of All Fears movie is so radically different from the novel as not to be the same work of fiction.
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-04-21, 18:57
Sum of All Fears movie is so radically different from the novel as not to be the same work of fiction.
The Harrison Ford movies weren't close either.
If I even mildly enjoy the book, I know the movie will suck. It's just a good rule of thumb.
Everyone - "They are making xxx into a movie! Yea!!!"
Me - "Crap."
Dune - sucks
Hitchhiker's guide - sucks
The list just goes and goes. Every once in a blue moon they surprise me with a "Hunt for Red October" but not lately.
The only movies that lived up to the book:
-A Walk to Remember
-Black Hawk Down
-Fight Club
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-04-21, 22:53
This is why I don’t read books.
Diamondback
05-04-21, 23:14
This is why I don’t read books.
And conversely, this is why I DO--they spark curiosity and inspire me to seek new knowledge, in addition to being better entertainment than woke Hollyweird trash. RIP Clive Cussler... :(
The Harrison Ford movies weren't close either.
At least they were good.
The only movies that lived up to the book:
-A Walk to Remember
-Black Hawk Down
-Fight Club
I thought "Shooter" did a decent adaptation of Point of Impact. Obviously they changed lots of things.
Blackhawk Down was great, but they left a LOT out.
Also "We Were Soldiers" was damn near verbatim, but again only told half of the story.
Usually I'll read a book after seeing the film. Helps me keep the many characters organized in my head because I can associate them with their film characters and it usually keeps me from being very disappointed. It's kind of like a very in depth study of the film, assuming the film was good to begin with.
Only backfired one me once with "Dogs of War" where the book was soo damn boring I could hardly stand it even though the film is one of my favorites.
Dont watch do not give them view numbers !
When they realize folks keep watching anyway they will keep making them like this crap !
Adrenaline_6
05-05-21, 08:16
If Clancy was alive, this movie would never have had his approval rating. Sure, they made a mess of Sum of All Fears too, but he never put his stamp of approval on it, so you knew it sucked and was way off the storyline.
...and I agree with FF....no hyperbaric chamber is an instant lose.
Blackhawk Down was great, but they left a LOT out. Also "We Were Soldiers" was damn near verbatim, but again only told half of the story.
Agreed. I think the problem is not producer's intent, but rather how to fit the book into a 2+/- hour film.
Nowadays with Amazon and Netflix, I think Clancy is RIPE for a quality (I said 'quality') mini-series for the books, especially Red Storm Rising. But this is true, too, for a lot of detailed subject matter I'd like to see on screen: MACV/SOG, Stephen Coonts/Dale Brown, etc.
William Dafoe was a pretty good John Clark, but I am a Tom Clancy fan and still read the books when they come out.
But changing a character to fit the PC mindset is ridiculous....
The books are awesome. !
I enjoyed this thread more than I enjoyed the movie.
And while on the surface I don't really care about the blackwashing, the endless forced diversity does wear thin when it gets shoe-horned into somewhere it doesn't really fit. That said, the odds that anyone in Hollywood in 2020's is going to make a movie about a white vigilante killing off inner-city drug pushers are about the same odds as me pooping cotton candy.
I will say this about the obvious forced racial diversity though, I could much more easily overlook that than the forced gender diversity. A 90lb female SEAL officer? C'mon. Good grief.
Seriously, you want to cast a black guy as Clark who cares, it ain't integral to the story. I've not seen the Amazon variant (not planning to either), but the trailer and the comments I've seen indicate that there is practically nothing about the book remaining in the movie.
ETA: I'm waiting for the movie about the Bin Laden raid. Inner city gangbangers recruited for their street born skills. Quickly given some perfunctory SEAL training, which of course they make easy work of given their "real world warrior" background. Dispatched to hunt the world's most wanted terrorist, they overcome America's bumbling incompetent military establishment and serve up revenge for 9/11... Gangsta Style!!!
I enjoyed this thread more than I enjoyed the movie......I will say this about the obvious forced racial diversity though, I could much more easily overlook that than the forced gender diversity. A 90lb female SEAL officer? C'mon. Good grief.
Totally agree, this thread is MUCH better than the movie.
I would agree re: SEAL chick, but (Navy) Chief Shannon Kent went into a unit with a higher attrition rate for their A&S and apparently kicked ass.
Pacific5th
05-11-21, 03:15
So my kid wanted to watch this. If it was billed as a new story I would have enjoyed it more. But to completely change the John Kelly story is a little much. It is basically a complete new story line just using a few names that Tom Clancy cooked up.
The original book would still make a good movie and to tie it into some new movies set in the 80’s with John Ryan would be sweet. The retro 80’s are hot shit these days so I think they could do a good Cold War series.
I just watched the movie.
It was terrible.
I don't care that they wanted to make Clark black, but the whole plot stunk and the mission to Russia was just plain stupid sending black operators to a place that has no or almost no blacks.
But I started watching Underground Railroad also on Amazon and had to turn it off after about 20 minutes
joedirt199
06-06-21, 22:31
Same with "Jupiter's Legacy" on netflix. 5 mins in and the super hero dad is telling the daughter not to use her powers on the "bad guy" because they are people too and we don't kill them, we make them face justice. Sorry not going to spew your cops are bad shit on me. Getting harder and harder to find things worth watching.
I just remember something: back when I was working on a really terrible movie (Color of Night), I was also syncing up screen tests for the newest Die Hard installment about a burned out NYPD detective, who had to deal with a mad bomber in the city.
Funny thing was, that opening felt really weird when you watched the movie. Totally not John McClain. And there’s a reason for that. Rather than write a totally organic Die Hard 3 script (not that they didn’t try, trust me), the producers bought a fairly decent script called Simon Says and wrenched it into a Die Hard movie.
I’d bet a donut that the same thing happened here. They had the rights to Without Remorse and a star attached, but no workable script, so they grabbed one with a workable plot (it might have actually been an ok script), and they strapped just enough of Clark’s storyline onto it to make it passable. The thing reeked of a dozen other movies you’ve seen, but it was hard to tell because there was always some bizzaro-world version of Tom Clancey sitting on it.
Also, Netflix are total idiots with money, so they probably overspent on development of the original script, then too much for the other script they bastardized.
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I just watched the movie.
It was terrible.
I don't care that they wanted to make Clark black, but the whole plot stunk and the mission to Russia was just plain stupid sending black operators to a place that has no or almost no blacks.
Saw it today. I knew I was in trouble in the beginning when he took the shot from underwater and as he came out of the water, the ejection port cover was still closed.
Couldn't care less that they made Clarke a black guy, the black girl SEAL commander was a bit much. Big problem is everything sucked, updated story line was weak, plausible military scenarios were completely out the window (which is the draw for Clancy shit in the first place) and so much "don't care" I can't begin to list it all.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-25-22, 08:25
Can we get the rights to Little Women, Jane Error, or other beloved collectivist literature and screw that the F up? Make them into pro-life subservient twits? They keep on messing with our stuff.
Remake Thelma and Louise where they drive the speed limit, make sandwiches, and do dishes. Makes about as much sense.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-25-22, 11:40
I just remember something: back when I was working on a really terrible movie (Color of Night), I was also syncing up screen tests for the newest Die Hard installment about a burned out NYPD detective, who had to deal with a mad bomber in the city.
Funny thing was, that opening felt really weird when you watched the movie. Totally not John McClain. And there’s a reason for that. Rather than write a totally organic Die Hard 3 script (not that they didn’t try, trust me), the producers bought a fairly decent script called Simon Says and wrenched it into a Die Hard movie.
I’d bet a donut that the same thing happened here. They had the rights to Without Remorse and a star attached, but no workable script, so they grabbed one with a workable plot (it might have actually been an ok script), and they strapped just enough of Clark’s storyline onto it to make it passable. The thing reeked of a dozen other movies you’ve seen, but it was hard to tell because there was always some bizzaro-world version of Tom Clancey sitting on it.
Also, Netflix are total idiots with money, so they probably overspent on development of the original script, then too much for the other script they bastardized.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am intrigued by your background and would love to hear more! Seriously, this sounds cool.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-25-22, 11:41
I just remember something: back when I was working on a really terrible movie (Color of Night), I was also syncing up screen tests for the newest Die Hard installment about a burned out NYPD detective, who had to deal with a mad bomber in the city.
Funny thing was, that opening felt really weird when you watched the movie. Totally not John McClain. And there’s a reason for that. Rather than write a totally organic Die Hard 3 script (not that they didn’t try, trust me), the producers bought a fairly decent script called Simon Says and wrenched it into a Die Hard movie.
I’d bet a donut that the same thing happened here. They had the rights to Without Remorse and a star attached, but no workable script, so they grabbed one with a workable plot (it might have actually been an ok script), and they strapped just enough of Clark’s storyline onto it to make it passable. The thing reeked of a dozen other movies you’ve seen, but it was hard to tell because there was always some bizzaro-world version of Tom Clancey sitting on it.
Also, Netflix are total idiots with money, so they probably overspent on development of the original script, then too much for the other script they bastardized.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am intrigued by your background and would love to hear more! Seriously, this sounds cool.
After hearing so many glowing reviews...
I s'pose I'll have to pass.
I have no desire to watch their production of "Wheel of Time" either, though I enjoyed the books.
I saw something where Amazon said they are "forced" to deviate when they adapt popular books to film because readers have poor taste.
I am intrigued by your background and would love to hear more! Seriously, this sounds cool.
Film and television editor, same as my dad (my great grandfather was a plaster at Disney). Been doing it professionally for 35 years now, grew up on set and in the cutting room. It’s an odd business, but I’ve made a load of great friends and got to travel quite a bit too. It can be hard on relationships though. To be honest, I’m probably not qualified to work with regular people, so my other career paths would have been a bus driver or repoing cars (I actually did both very briefly, and neither was fun).
For movies like Die Hard With A Vengeance (really all movies), you have a limited window to get it done because of the actor’s and director’s schedules, filming permits, and even the weather. So when they didn’t have a script anyone would approve putting their money into, the producers grabbed a decent script they had already optioned, tossed a script doctor at it for a few weeks and a ton of money, and started shooting.
One of the craziest things about working at that company was going to grab a fax and seeing the receipts from one of the executive producer’s casinos in Hungary. Not Vegas money, but I’d totally like that stream going into my offshore accounts!
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Can we get the rights to Little Women, Jane Error, or other beloved collectivist literature and screw that the F up? Make them into pro-life subservient twits? They keep on messing with our stuff.
Remake Thelma and Louise where they drive the speed limit, make sandwiches, and do dishes. Makes about as much sense.
Stepford Wives could be about how to maintain a good marriage. I'm on board with this.
Handmaid Tale could be about the fun, sexual adventures of a handmaid.
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