View Full Version : Ammunition: Who is making the $? Who is price gouging?
I would like to know who is setting these prices. Are the manufacturers or distributors or retailers setting these prices and gouging us all? When all the LGS prices went way up and most online stores prices went way up, here in TX at Academy Sports the prices stayed the same or with a minimal price increase for months (have not checked lately), so that would lead me to believe that the prices gouging is happening at our beloved retailers and not by the manufacturers and distributors. I have also been told that it is the retailers doing the $ gouging by an industry insider (that I cannot verify his reliability). Does anyone know who is responsible for these prices?
Conservativism 101: in a free market, the buyers determine prices.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-07-21, 04:30
The manufacturers should be, with the idea that those profits would go to expanding capacity, or as least drawing in new competitors because of the chance for profits. I understand there is a cycle, and by the time capacity increased the demand would reduce and prices drop- along with potential legislation hitting demand or liability. I’d still want to see capital and profits accumulate at the bottlenecks. Distribution isn’t the problem, manufacturing is. Where exactly- raw materials, components or assembly- I don’t know.
Brasilnuts
03-07-21, 07:10
The manufacturers should be, with the idea that those profits would go to expanding capacity, or as least drawing in new competitors because of the chance for profits. I understand there is a cycle, and by the time capacity increased the demand would reduce and prices drop- along with potential legislation hitting demand or liability.
When was Sandy Hook, 2013? It’s been difficult to find .22 ever since that occurred and what you stated above seemed to be the only answer for it. Well, that was 8 years ago, I’m guessing it would have paid off for Federal etc. to purchase more machinery and hire people to operate it.
I remember being in Africa and listening to a BBC radio program about the skyrocketing price of rice. The reporter went through every step of the process down to the farmer, no one admitted making any more money.
I don't think the term "price gouging" should apply to what we are seeing with ammunition prices. It's all about supply vs demand and it's not just about ammunition prices. I was quoted $50 each for a 10 foot 6X6 treated post last week. That is 3 times what they cost 2 years ago.
22 has not been scarce since 2013.
We've been awash in 22LR since recovering from Sandy Hook. Places like Target Sports USA sold cases cheap with free shipping. That's how I have >30,000 rounds stashed.
PracticalRifleman
03-07-21, 09:34
When prices of raw materials increase, fuel, decreased labor supply while overhead maintains or even increases, across the board price increases happen. The profit margins do not change just because price is increased.
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This again?!?! The demand is so high manufacturers can't keep up! Some retailers are willing to break even or maybe loose a little bit on ammo sales as long as it brings people in. However, at this point everyone's prices are high because there's lack of product, lack of raw materials, shipment issues, ...etc...
What did Federal CEO say? They sold more hunting ammo this year than in the last 99 years. And that's just hunting ammo! Everything they make goes right out the door.
Didn't Yani say he talked to a overseas manufacturer who said they have several years backlog on ammo orders
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While I have just read the usual trite answers here. Duh! The raw materials have not increased that much. Just because there is "temporarily" greater demand you do not "have to" raise the price especially in a panic that will harm the consumers. The business strategy to triple prices because there is greater demand (for a VERY temporary demand spike) with the strategy to reinvest profits as to increase manufacturing capability is a great way to going out of business. People are NOT going to be spending all of their spare cash on ammo forever, so that would be a fools errand. I believe this IS PRICE GOUGING! The local big box sporting goods store here Academy is keeping their ammo at the original price points and they are not doing that to get people to come in and buy tennis racquets and running shorts it is just their policy and VERY patriotic and ethical policy. I just think we should be finding out who is price gouging and letting them know we will remember them and be rewarding those who did not. IMHO... YMMV.
Academy 9mm prices averaging around 33 cents per round and as low as 20 cents per round
https://www.academy.com/shop/browse/outdoors/shooting/ammunition/bulk-ammunition?facet=ads_f10506_ntk_cs%3A%229mm+Luger%22
and
Midway 9mm prices averaging over 70 cents per round (for crap training ammo)
https://www.midwayusa.com/ammunition/br?cid=653&targetLocation=%2F_%2FN-0%2B653%3FNp%3D2%26Nr%3DAND%2528p_visible%253A1%252Ccustomertypeid%253A1%2529%26Nrpp%3D48%26Ntpc%3D1%26Ntpr%3D1%26Ntt%3D9mm
How come Academy can keep their prices close to normal? Hmmmm....
Leonidas24
03-07-21, 14:14
Academy 9mm prices averaging around 33 cents per round and as low as 20 cents per round
https://www.academy.com/shop/browse/outdoors/shooting/ammunition/bulk-ammunition?facet=ads_f10506_ntk_cs%3A%229mm+Luger%22
and
Midway 9mm prices averaging over 70 cents per round (for crap training ammo)
https://www.midwayusa.com/ammunition/br?cid=653&targetLocation=%2F_%2FN-0%2B653%3FNp%3D2%26Nr%3DAND%2528p_visible%253A1%252Ccustomertypeid%253A1%2529%26Nrpp%3D48%26Ntpc%3D1%26Ntpr%3D1%26Ntt%3D9mm
How come Academy can keep their prices close to normal? Hmmmm....
I've been shopping at Academy for most of my ammo needs for the better part of the last two years. When Frontier and Federal 5.56 were both holding steady at 6.49/box I was buying around 10-15 boxes per pay period. Since this time last year prices have slowly crept up to between 9.99-10.99/box, and there's now a line every Wednesday and Friday morning to score whatever the truck delivered that morning. Comparatively speaking, .50 cents per round is far more affordable than the $0.70-1.00 that most online retailers are asking, but it comes at the expense of showing up an hour before the doors open on days when I'm normally at work. And on top of that, every Wednesday and Friday whatever was delivered for consumer purchase at Academy is then put up on Armslist for double what was originally paid. THAT is price gouging.
On the other hand Rainier Arms is local to me, and their member price for PMC .223 is $11.49/box. That's pricey to me, but if it keeps me from digging into my 5.56 stash of higher quality ammo then I don't have a problem buying 3 boxes or so to at least get some drills in every 2 weeks. Their 9mm is right around $30 a box last time I checked, and I haven't bought any of that since it went up that high. But, they have it on the shelf the 6 days a week they're open and it's available for those who are willing to pay the price, and I don't consider them to be gouging either.
Scheels had alu cased blazer 9mm for $20 the other week. We've been printing a ton & raw materials are getting more expensive:
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/copper
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lead
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/crude-oil
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/natural-gas
Tie that in with the remington BK, Covid related staffing issues and you have limited production, a ton of new shooters, and yeah, prices go up. They'll come back down eventually as Vista gets Rem online.
The_War_Wagon
03-07-21, 16:57
Ammunition: Who is making the $? Who is price gouging?
https://i.ibb.co/pdQp0Qg/ammo-panic.jpg
While I have just read the usual trite answers here. Duh! The raw materials have not increased that much.
Don't bet on it.
Copper breaches $9,000 a tonne in bet on economic bounce and supply limits (https://www.ft.com/content/ce8405d9-b932-44e9-a965-ab7dc6d1e26f)
Industrial metal hits its highest level in a decade as global demand increases
https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd1e00ek4ebabms.cloudfront.net%2Fproduction%2Fb1ac47b2-576c-4bc2-8625-4512c50d32b0.jpg?fit=scale-down&source=next&width=700
A copper refinery in Russia.
Production is failing to keep pace with demand in China and the rest of the world, where consumption is rapidly picking up Copper production is failing to keep pace with demand in China and the rest of the world, where consumption is rapidly picking up.
Copper, the world’s most important industrial metal, climbed above $9,000 a tonne for the first time since 2011 on Monday, fuelled by speculative bets on higher prices from China. The number of copper futures contracts outstanding on the Shanghai Futures Exchange has jumped sharply since the end of the lunar new year holiday, according to brokerage Marex Spectron.
After rising 8.1 per cent on Thursday and 6 per cent on Friday, open interest in those copper futures expanded a further 6 per cent on Monday to 365,000 contracts, as investors bet on further gains for the metal, used in everything from household goods to wind turbines.
Marex reckons the net speculative long position on the Shanghai exchange — the difference between bets on rising and falling prices — is more than 100,000 lots and close to the highest level since 2017. “It has been an exchange-led, speculative move but there are good reasons for it,” said Mark Hansen, chief executive of Concord Resources, a London-based commodity trader.
In early trading on Monday, copper rose as much as 4 per cent to $9,269 a tonne before pulling back to $9,060. The metal is already up 15 per cent this year, a performance that has boosted the stock prices of leading producers including Glencore, Freeport-McMoRan and Antofagasta.
Keep in mind, brass is ALSO made from copper.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-07-21, 17:16
When was Sandy Hook, 2013? It’s been difficult to find .22 ever since that occurred and what you stated above seemed to be the only answer for it. Well, that was 8 years ago, I’m guessing it would have paid off for Federal etc. to purchase more machinery and hire people to operate it.
I remember being in Africa and listening to a BBC radio program about the skyrocketing price of rice. The reporter went through every step of the process down to the farmer, no one admitted making any more money.
For the past few years, I haven't had issues with 22. 5 cents a round was my price point but for the Semi-auto (40gr HV) that works well for me, I'd go 7-8cents. Shipping became the issue. I was just about to pull the trigger on a couple cases of 22 right before this all hit. I had been holding off looking for some local to try out before I went with the lower-lead ammo, but lost out. I generally waited for a good price or no shipping from Palmetto and by a bunch of boxes of Winchester Semi-Auto Match ammo.
I have about 20 different brands of odds and ends. I'll take them to the range and make it drill failure day...
While I have just read the usual trite answers here. Duh! The raw materials have not increased that much. Just because there is "temporarily" greater demand you do not "have to" raise the price especially in a panic that will harm the consumers. The business strategy to triple prices because there is greater demand (for a VERY temporary demand spike) with the strategy to reinvest profits as to increase manufacturing capability is a great way to going out of business. People are NOT going to be spending all of their spare cash on ammo forever, so that would be a fools errand. I believe this IS PRICE GOUGING! The local big box sporting goods store here Academy is keeping their ammo at the original price points and they are not doing that to get people to come in and buy tennis racquets and running shorts it is just their policy and VERY patriotic and ethical policy. I just think we should be finding out who is price gouging and letting them know we will remember them and be rewarding those who did not. IMHO... YMMV.
What good is list price ammo if you have to show up at 6am on every other Wednesday and know the handshake? At least with 'price gouging' there is ammo to be bought. COVID and delivery are not really issues anymore. I'm in manufacturing and most places are up and running and the supply chain, domestically is pretty good- overseas, not so much.
If everyone just bought what they needed, like some magical place like Pottersville when people only took out of the bank what they needed, then there wouldn't be an issue. But as soon as it gets tight, people panic buy, it dries up and now everything siezes up. Consumers are to blame for 'price gouging' as anyone. THe people that buy what ammo they can get, and then parse it out in sandwich baggies at +$1 per round online.
I agree that the reason we end up like this, and I mentioned it in my post, that adding capacity to the manufacturing is not a great place to put capital. At the very least though, I'd be replacing old equipement that causes issues. I disagree about how 'short' this will be. We are a year in and maybe we start to see some softening. Maybe after they try a gun grab and it doesn't stick, that would help. Some good SCOTUS rulings would really be a way to reduce everyone's stress level.
Good news is this afternoon I cleaned up the gun room and found about 1000 rounds of 22 in bags I had forgotten about. Box here, box there, it adds up.
I think that the real way to tamp down the 'gouging' would be to let people pre-order ammo. They say that they know how much that they are going to make. Let people auction for the ammo going out 6-12 months. That way there is some vision as to how long people will be willing to pay high prices. Make people pay now so that they don't just place orders.
While I have just read the usual trite answers here. Duh! The raw materials have not increased that much. Just because there is "temporarily" greater demand you do not "have to" raise the price especially in a panic that will harm the consumers. The business strategy to triple prices because there is greater demand (for a VERY temporary demand spike) with the strategy to reinvest profits as to increase manufacturing capability is a great way to going out of business. People are NOT going to be spending all of their spare cash on ammo forever, so that would be a fools errand. I believe this IS PRICE GOUGING! The local big box sporting goods store here Academy is keeping their ammo at the original price points and they are not doing that to get people to come in and buy tennis racquets and running shorts it is just their policy and VERY patriotic and ethical policy. I just think we should be finding out who is price gouging and letting them know we will remember them and be rewarding those who did not. IMHO... YMMV.
It's not that complicated... If you think the sellers are gouging you don't buy from them. Do without! Nobody owes you reasonably priced ammunition.
Academy 9mm prices averaging around 33 cents per round and as low as 20 cents per round
https://www.academy.com/shop/browse/outdoors/shooting/ammunition/bulk-ammunition?facet=ads_f10506_ntk_cs%3A%229mm+Luger%22
and
Midway 9mm prices averaging over 70 cents per round (for crap training ammo)
https://www.midwayusa.com/ammunition/br?cid=653&targetLocation=%2F_%2FN-0%2B653%3FNp%3D2%26Nr%3DAND%2528p_visible%253A1%252Ccustomertypeid%253A1%2529%26Nrpp%3D48%26Ntpc%3D1%26Ntpr%3D1%26Ntt%3D9mm
How come Academy can keep their prices close to normal? Hmmmm....They take a slight lose knowing you'll buy something else too. Notice they don't ship? I live in a densely populated are. About 7 million people and the nearest Academy for me is over 250 miles. (Bass Pro and Cabela's are an hour and half via toll turnpike. Between gas and toll it isn't worth it because they typically get killed on price) Meaning I can't buy unless I drive over and if I do I may as well look around and buy something else while I'm there. It's the Costco rotisserie chicken. (if you don't know what I'm talking about look it up)
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I believe this IS PRICE GOUGING! I believe the stay puffed marshmallow man is real. Doesn't make it so
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Does anyone know who is responsible for these prices?
Consumers. Supply<Demand.
If you don't have enough ammo, that's mostly your fault. It's been coming for awhile, there is lots of precedent. If you haven't been building since 2008 don't complain now. A little over a year ago ammo was plentiful and cheap.
As said above.....supply and demand. People think the end of the world is coming. Hysteria is everywhere.
morbidbattlecry
03-07-21, 20:16
My question is where is it all going? I'm hearing companies are putting out record amounts, but it seams like it's just getting dumped into a black hole or something. I remember sandy hook, and ammo was actually available but just at ridiculous prices. Now it's just gone.
PracticalRifleman
03-07-21, 20:34
My question is where is it all going? I'm hearing companies are putting out record amounts, but it seams like it's just getting dumped into a black hole or something. I remember sandy hook, and ammo was actually available but just at ridiculous prices. Now it's just gone.
My local shop will get a pallet of 9mm in. Limit to one box per customer, then it’s gone in a day.
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grizzlyblake
03-07-21, 20:59
I understand the OPs question.
Everything else aside who is making the bigger margin now? Are the manufacturers selling to distributors at the higher price? If so, what is, say, Federal doing with an extra $700/case of 556? Are they still netting the same margin because labor and materials are costing them so much more?
I'm working in Georgia right now. There is plenty of 9mm to be had if you are willing to spend $50 for 20 rounds. The local gun show had 9mm at almost every booth for $1 per round for cheap-o target ammo. 115gr fmj. One guy had an industrial sized drum of it for sale. 15,000 rounds for $15,000. He was even willing to throw in the old rusty dolly to make the deal.
There doesn't seem to be a shortage. There does seem to be ridiculously high price gouging. There is an Academy right down the street from my hotel. After reading this thread, I'll be going there tomorrow to see what day is ammo day and what time I have to be there to get 9mm at a reasonable price.
To Steyr's point, I'm all stocked up on every caliber, so I have no need of 9mm at these elevated prices, but I am wondering when the prices will drop back down to something more reasonable. It really sucks that an affordable ammo supply is now a factor in my decision to go practice at the range or not. Admittedly, there has been more dry-fire practice at home than usual for me. I have a lot stocked up, but at some point I will need to buy more. $15 to empty one mag on a G19 is not a proposition I'm looking forward to.
The criminals that have taken over our government against our will will stop at nothing to get the guns out of our hands. They are playing the long game and preventing a new generation of shooters from coming of age due to skyrocketing ammo prices is well within the realm of what they will stoop to. If you are not suspicious of things like this, you are doing it wrong.
morbidbattlecry
03-07-21, 21:41
My local shop will get a pallet of 9mm in. Limit to one box per customer, then it’s gone in a day.
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It's crazy man. Sandy Hook was nothing like this.
My question is where is it all going? I'm hearing companies are putting out record amounts, but it seams like it's just getting dumped into a black hole or something. I remember sandy hook, and ammo was actually available but just at ridiculous prices. Now it's just gone.
Easy actually.
First BIG NAME DISTRIBUTORS, those who order more in a single year than you will in a lifetime. They are at the front of the line and sometimes they "BUY IT ALL." And then you have to buy from them bitching the entire time because their prices are outrageous.
Next BIG NAME STORES where neckbeards with no jobs promptly group text their buying crew and clean out shelves within the hour despite any "two boxes per customer" limit and it's for sale on GB by the end of the day.
And on an on it goes until supply finally catches up with dramatic demand which can take awhile. Then ordinary LGS locations stock ammo and people scoff and say "Where were you when I needed you" and "Panic is over why isn't this crap discounted 50% off retail?"
And so it goes. Those with a clue factor in two to 5 boxes a month, every month and come the next panic buy they will be sitting on a respectful ammo reserve.
I got caught in ONE magazine supply shortage when anything over 10 rounds couldn't be made for sale from 1994 to 2004, I promptly went about correcting that. At one time I had over 1,000 AR magazines, not in inventory but personal stash. Well over 500 G19 and G17 mags. 1,200 HK G3 mags, a few hundred MP5 mags, a couple hundred HK 93/33 mags and when they had them below $10 I probably grabbed almost 1,000 Uzi mags. I pretty much have all the mags I'll ever need for all of my firearms for the rest of my life if they suddenly stopped making ALL magazines tomorrow.
That's the plan, I don't give a shit what they pass. I went without new cars, new cell phones and a bunch of other crap to secure the shit I need. I have reserves of ammo but I did blow through most of my training ammo that will need to be replenished because I don't dip into my reserves.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-08-21, 01:35
My question is where is it all going? I'm hearing companies are putting out record amounts, but it seams like it's just getting dumped into a black hole or something. I remember sandy hook, and ammo was actually available but just at ridiculous prices. Now it's just gone.
I do have trouble with this too, but I think it was one of the ammo manufacturers that put in context of gun owners or guns and boxes of ammo sold per year. We all here go through thousands of round a year. Most gun owners go through MAYBE a box a year. I bet 20% of gun owners never get through the first box of ammo they buy. So in 2019 all it takes is the 5 million new gun owners and a portion of standard gun owners to buy just a couple of extra boxes and SCHHHHHuuuuck- that is the sound of ammo disappearing from the shelves, which drives people to want it more. I also wonder if the online sales of 500-1000 round boxes leads to people buying more than if they went to the store and bough it by 20/50 round boxes.
I do have trouble with this too, but I think it was one of the ammo manufacturers that put in context of gun owners or guns and boxes of ammo sold per year. We all here go through thousands of round a year. Most gun owners go through MAYBE a box a year. I bet 20% of gun owners never get through the first box of ammo they buy. So in 2019 all it takes is the 5 million new gun owners and a portion of standard gun owners to buy just a couple of extra boxes and SCHHHHHuuuuck- that is the sound of ammo disappearing from the shelves, which drives people to want it more. I also wonder if the online sales of 500-1000 round boxes leads to people buying more than if they went to the store and bough it by 20/50 round boxes.
This^^ with one exception... I'll bet the real number of new buyers who never shoot a single round is more like 80%.
PracticalRifleman
03-08-21, 06:55
Only people gouging are the old shyt stains that hang out in Academy parking lots buying regular priced ammo as soon as it’s placed in the shelf, with the intention of reselling if online.
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Only people gouging are the old shyt stains that hang out in Academy parking lots buying regular priced ammo as soon as it’s placed in the shelf, with the intention of reselling if online.
But that is the question in this thread. Why is Academy the only place anyone here has seen selling ammo for "regular" prices? Are the retailers having to pay the wholesalers two to three times, or five to ten times, the normal price to buy it, and then passing those costs on to customers? Are the distributors jacking up the prices on the wholesalers? Are the manufacturers having to pay more for the raw materials and passing on those costs? Are the raw material suppliers getting jacked by their suppliers? Gas prices aren't up, so we can't blame it on that. With all the covid layoffs and shut downs, there are plenty of people who are happy to be paid to handle and deliver all the stuff in every step of the process, so no shortage of employable people to do the job. Cardboard, plastic and printing prices haven't changed, so it isn't the packaging that is costing more.
Somebody somewhere in this supply chain, or a combination of somebodies, has made 9mm go from .20 cents a round to over $1 per round in a very short space of time. It doesn't suddenly cost 500% more to make it, package it, or deliver it, so why is it costing 500% more to buy it? Who is making that extra money? When will supply catch up with demand?
ChattanoogaPhil
03-08-21, 08:01
The answer is the retailer or end-seller is where the huge spikes in price are, and drives availability. Below are glaring examples.
500rd box of Winchester M-22 22LR.
CTD = $249 In stock.
Optics planet = $149 You can place a backorder.
Midway = $41 Out of stock.
-----------
Best I can tell the so-called ammo shortage isn't being driven by consumption. During the pandemic our club has been far less active. In general, I think the ammo supply has mostly moved from retail shelves to consumer storage.
Nobody is gouging anyone.
If you don't want to pay the "going rate"- don't buy any ammo.
Actually, gas prices ARE up. About 40-50 cents per gallon locally since the election. The costs of production are up because the manufacturers are not expanding capacity with new lines- they are simply running 24x7- that means Overtime pay for all their employees. Also, most ammo manufacturers purchase some of their components from outside sources- those outside sources have raised their prices- because demand is up.
This is almost as dumb as "the guvmint is buying up all the ammoes".
This drought, is going to have real staying power. If you didn't have a serious amount of ammo layed away, you will suffer the consequences of poor planning.
My question is where is it all going? I'm hearing companies are putting out record amounts, but it seams like it's just getting dumped into a black hole or something. I remember sandy hook, and ammo was actually available but just at ridiculous prices. Now it's just gone.
It ain't getting shot I can tell you that much..... I was on the range on Sat. and Sunday this week. BEAUTIFUL 70 degree days- 400 member gun club. Had only two other guys show up in over 2 hours both days. Fine by me, an empty range is a safe range and there is less waiting around, cease fires etc.....
Fuel has gone up since the election, raw materials and packaging have gone up, and as Esq pointed out, labor costs have risen.
But prices are up over 3 times the price 1 year ago because demand is up. Some retailers are like Academy, with a modest cost increase, some say "screw that, I'm getting every penny I can".
I honestly have enough ammo/reloading supplies for defense and hunting for the rest of my life. Maybe even enough for the occasional shooting session thrown in.
If ammo prices remain at over 3X the pre-covid prices, I will simply sell off the majority of my "toys", keep a core group of guns, and find another hobby to occupy my time.
Andy
Fuel has gone up since the election, raw materials and packaging have gone up, and as Esq pointed out, labor costs have risen.
But prices are up over 3 times the price 1 year ago because demand is up. Some retailers are like Academy, with a modest cost increase, some say "screw that, I'm getting every penny I can".
I honestly have enough ammo/reloading supplies for defense and hunting for the rest of my life. Maybe even enough for the occasional shooting session thrown in.
If ammo prices remain at over 3X the pre-covid prices, I will simply sell off the majority of my "toys", keep a core group of guns, and find another hobby to occupy my time.
Andy
Music to the ears of every lefty who hears this.
The_War_Wagon
03-08-21, 08:34
My question is where is it all going?
20mm ammo cans. Just as its been going into MY 20mm cans since 1990.
PracticalRifleman
03-08-21, 08:38
But that is the question in this thread. Why is Academy the only place anyone here has seen selling ammo for "regular" prices? Are the retailers having to pay the wholesalers two to three times, or five to ten times, the normal price to buy it, and then passing those costs on to customers? Are the distributors jacking up the prices on the wholesalers? Are the manufacturers having to pay more for the raw materials and passing on those costs? Are the raw material suppliers getting jacked by their suppliers? Gas prices aren't up, so we can't blame it on that. With all the covid layoffs and shut downs, there are plenty of people who are happy to be paid to handle and deliver all the stuff in every step of the process, so no shortage of employable people to do the job. Cardboard, plastic and printing prices haven't changed, so it isn't the packaging that is costing more.
Somebody somewhere in this supply chain, or a combination of somebodies, has made 9mm go from .20 cents a round to over $1 per round in a very short space of time. It doesn't suddenly cost 500% more to make it, package it, or deliver it, so why is it costing 500% more to buy it? Who is making that extra money? When will supply catch up with demand?
Academy was over-priced before and is higher now as well. Just like all the other big-box stores that buy enough to get their ammunition direct.
Places like Academy, Cabelas, Bass Pro, etc don’t make their living on guns and ammo. It’s a fraction.
Raw materials are higher. That’s been covered. Many states have COVID restrictions that cost companies money and slows production.
Wholesalers are being rationed. They can’t sell steady amounts because EVERYBODY is ordering massive amounts. So are the gunshops and smaller retailers. They are getting rationed at every step.
It doesn’t appear as though anybody is getting rich on the primary market.
The local gun shops are getting spurts of ammo they sell in a day. Then they may have NOTHING to sell for days or weeks. They are marking up to a higher margin because they have less to sell than normal. No guns, no ammo, no reloading supplies. Are they making more money selling $1 9mm? Per round sure, but they aren’t selling as much as pre-panic. There are many compressing hours because they can’t make any money and pay the bills.
The factories...they haven’t increased margins. But they are selling everything they can make. They are more profitable but margins aren’t increasing.
It’s just economics. Quit thinking you’re being screwed and there is some grand conspiracy.
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Crow Hunter
03-08-21, 08:40
But that is the question in this thread. Why is Academy the only place anyone here has seen selling ammo for "regular" prices? Are the retailers having to pay the wholesalers two to three times, or five to ten times, the normal price to buy it, and then passing those costs on to customers? Are the distributors jacking up the prices on the wholesalers? Are the manufacturers having to pay more for the raw materials and passing on those costs? Are the raw material suppliers getting jacked by their suppliers? Gas prices aren't up, so we can't blame it on that. With all the covid layoffs and shut downs, there are plenty of people who are happy to be paid to handle and deliver all the stuff in every step of the process, so no shortage of employable people to do the job. Cardboard, plastic and printing prices haven't changed, so it isn't the packaging that is costing more.
Somebody somewhere in this supply chain, or a combination of somebodies, has made 9mm go from .20 cents a round to over $1 per round in a very short space of time. It doesn't suddenly cost 500% more to make it, package it, or deliver it, so why is it costing 500% more to buy it? Who is making that extra money? When will supply catch up with demand?
Academy doesn't make "its" living off of ammo sales alone. If they run out of ammo, they don't really care. The will still sell kayaks and running shoes and such and those will remain a profit center for them.
Gun stores, online gun retailers and especially online ammo sellers rely much more on ammo as a profit center. If they run out all their stock selling it at their standard margin (which is based on buying it at X and selling at Y with a Z volume) with an indefinite future stock status, they would be stupid to sell it at standard margin. They would go out of business.
Take this as a random not factual example for illustrative purposes only. If they are buying 9mm at $.05/rd and selling it for $.20/rd, selling 1M rds/month they make $150,000/month to pay the salaries, healthcare, building expenses and profit.
Now cut that volume down just to 500,000/month. Now they are only making $75,000 but their fixed costs remained the same. Their workers aren't going to take a 50% pay cut, their electricity isn't going down by half, etc.
Now cut that further to just 100,000/month because there is unprecedented demand and massive retailers like Academy have contracts that have to be filled first.
Now you are only making $20,000/month.....
So you go from annual sales of $1.8M and the overhead to support this to $240,000/year with the overhead for $1.8M in sales.
What would you do? Run yourself out of product and send your employees home and go work as a greeter at China Mart or raise your prices to compensate and hope that supplies eventually catch up with demand?
This is completely leaving out trying to stop resellers using you as a wholesale source for their price gouging.
Music to the ears of every lefty who hears this.
Well, buying M193 at a buck per round sure as hell isnt the answer.
What is music to their ears is the retailers and whoesalers who will fold because they cant get ammo to sell amd struggle to sell guns without ammunition available.
Andy
Averageman
03-08-21, 09:20
Well, buying M193 at a buck s round sure as hell isnt the answer.
What is music to their ears is the retailers and whoesalers who will fold because they cant get ammo to sell amd struggle to sell guns without ammunition available.
Andy
Had to buy something locally at Wal Mart.
Very few guns, like 4, no ammo at all. Now I don't make a lot of purchases at Wal Mart, I buy almost all of my ammo online from Freedom Munitions and I stocked up quite a bit over the last decade.
I'm not hurting, but I certainly don't see a lot of ammo out there.
It ain't getting shot I can tell you that much..... I was on the range on Sat. and Sunday this week. BEAUTIFUL 70 degree days- 400 member gun club. Had only two other guys show up in over 2 hours both days. Fine by me, an empty range is a safe range and there is less waiting around, cease fires etc.....I haven't been to the range since July. There always an hours long wait to get in. Some days the line extends outside. I don't have the patience or the desire to wait, especially that long. However, my schedule just changed and I may be able to go in the weekday evenings. Today's the first day so we'll see
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It ain't getting shot I can tell you that much..... I was on the range on Sat. and Sunday this week. BEAUTIFUL 70 degree days- 400 member gun club. Had only two other guys show up in over 2 hours both days. Fine by me, an empty range is a safe range and there is less waiting around, cease fires etc.....
I was at the (WMA) range Saturday and there were maybe 20 people there at one time. Most people popping in and shooting maybe a box of ammo and leaving during the time I was there. The 100M lanes are almost deserted. I was shooting 22 pistol, I always need to work on my handgun shooting.
Andy
I was at the (WMA) range Saturday and there were maybe 20 people there at one time. Most people popping in and shooting maybe a box of ammo and leaving during the time I was there. The 100M lanes are almost deserted. I was shooting 22 pistol, I always need to work on my handgun shooting.
Andy
Is that a normal amount of shooters for that range/time, more, less?
Arik's post was interesting to me, I'm not seeing people shoot much here. Maybe a box or so once a month but that's about it.
My Church Security Team will be shooting this weekend. We are allowing people to run drills with .22 pistols- before quals.- warmups essentially, given the shortages. Several of the guys thankfully took my recommendation to buy a Glock 44 and a few bricks of ammo to heart before things got so stupid!
Is that a normal amount of shooters for that range/time, more, less?
Arik's post was interesting to me, I'm not seeing people shoot much here. Maybe a box or so once a month but that's about it.
My Church Security Team will be shooting this weekend. We are allowing people to run drills with .22 pistols- before quals.- warmups essentially, given the shortages. Several of the guys thankfully took my recommendation to buy a Glock 44 and a few bricks of ammo to heart before things got so stupid!I don't know how much they actually shoot. Maybe a lot of people shooting one box. I just know that when there's something like 15 lanes and an hour long line I'm not waiting around
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Bigkrackers
03-08-21, 12:56
There have also been a lot of new gun owners in a very short span of time. Over 5 million "new" gun owners in 2020, most coming in the 2nd half of the year. Over 4 mil background checks in January of this year and 3.3 mil in Feb. Not all of those will be new gun owners, but that's still a lot of market pressure in a short period of time. Coupled with COVID shutdowns worldwide, panic buying during the pandemic, Summer riots in the US and election...well, it's a perfect storm. Colion Noir interviewed the CEO(?) of Nosler just last week and there was some pretty good info in there. One point made was how many people see two boxes of ammo and only buy one right now. People are buying whatever they can, probably if they don't even own a gun that will shoot that caliber. I mean, are there that many people out there using single action 45lc or 45-70? Geez.
I was at Burrow Canyon shooting park in SoCal (large outdoor range in the San Gabriel mountains). Checking zeros on a couple of AR's and trying to shoot groups with my 10/22. Busy but not super busy. On the rifle side there was maybe 50 people. On my right there was one guy with a single AR and 6 other people with him. His gun was jacked. He was using a front sight as a rear. Another guy with an AR and 3 other guys with him, had his scope too far forward (his front ring was on the rail) and the rings were 1" high. You couldn't even get low enough to get behind the scope. I tried to help both groups, and they seemed receptive. One guy even asked for my number so we could talk more. They all seem to have a bit of ammo. I was encouraged by the numbers on the rifle and pistol side, also the private bays. Haven't really gone to a LGS in months, don't know what's going on there.
Crow Hunter
03-08-21, 13:14
My neighbor, a young lawyer with a family, who I have never seen armed, has been in his back yard recently with his wife and two young kids shooting a handgun and a .22 rifle. Caught me by surprise when I heard shots so close to my house.
Wife and both kids shooting.:dance3:
At a humanoid target, not bullseyes.
I have a feeling that there are LOTS of people like him around.
Usually on sunny weekend afternoons it sounds like WWIII around my house. There is less shooting volume wise than this time 2 years ago but there is definitely more variety of reports and it is coming from different locations. At least two new AR's, several new handguns have been heard when walking the dogs.
Hopefully they are prepared to vote to keep them.
Is that a normal amount of shooters for that range/time, more, less?
Normally (1 year ago) at least every other 100 Y/M covered range table is full, the 25 and 50 Y/M ranges every position full, and people would be there for 30-60 minutes.
This trip the 25 M range had 1/2 the positions filled at any given time, perhaps 3 people each on the 50, 100 M ranges.
Shooters would fire 50 rounds or less, then leave.
It was strange how quickly people were rotating and how many were women obviously being introduced to shooting or a specific pistol.
Andy
Normally (1 year ago) at least every other 100 Y/M covered range table is full, the 25 and 50 Y/M ranges every position full, and people would be there for 30-60 minutes.
This trip the 25 M range had 1/2 the positions filled at any given time, perhaps 3 people each on the 50, 100 M ranges.
Shooters would fire 50 rounds or less, then leave.
It was strange how quickly people were rotating and how many were women obviously being introduced to shooting or a specific pistol.
Andy
I think people are either "Verifying" their weapons- either a new purchase or a weapon they haven't used in awhile or one they have recently modified- changed a stock, added a red dot etc and they are making 100% sure it runs and hits where its' supposed to....OR, they are introducing family and friends to firearms in brief range sessions- familiarization fire essentially. That's the general sense that I get.....
I think people are either "Verifying" their weapons- either a new purchase or a weapon they haven't used in awhile or one they have recently modified- changed a stock, added a red dot etc and they are making 100% sure it runs and hits where its' supposed to....OR, they are introducing family and friends to firearms in brief range sessions- familiarization fire essentially. That's the general sense that I get.....
Agree 100%
Andy
Hopefully they are prepared to vote to keep them.
It appears that you didn't notice. Voting doesn't matter anymore. They just install whoever they want. They do it fraudulently right in front of us, and no one does anything to stop them.
https://i.ibb.co/pdQp0Qg/ammo-panic.jpg
Don't bet on it.
Copper breaches $9,000 a tonne in bet on economic bounce and supply limits (https://www.ft.com/content/ce8405d9-b932-44e9-a965-ab7dc6d1e26f)
Industrial metal hits its highest level in a decade as global demand increases
https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd1e00ek4ebabms.cloudfront.net%2Fproduction%2Fb1ac47b2-576c-4bc2-8625-4512c50d32b0.jpg?fit=scale-down&source=next&width=700
A copper refinery in Russia.
Keep in mind, brass is ALSO made from copper.
Steel is also way up. It's used in some, if not all primers.
Steel is also way up. It's used in some, if not all primers.
Did the price of steel and copper suddenly increase 500-1000%?
Previous ammo panics and ammo shortages did not result in the kinds of prices we are seeing this time.
Everyone is making money on it. To think otherwise is just naive.
Manufacturers are running 24/7, gotta pay overtime or new hires to meet increased demand, so you charge a higher price.
Dealers are moving massive amounts of product, demand is high and supplies are low, the thought of potential bans means your future returns may not be as significant- so they charge a higher price.
Storefronts and online stores are seeing a massive spike in orders and the same principals apply, higher demand and supply that cannot pace- same thought of potential future returns being diminished due to legislation, charge a higher price.
Neck beards buying all they can and selling for all they can get.
Shit rolls downhill, friends, and yes more money is being made by each person who has a link in the chain.
PracticalRifleman
03-09-21, 13:08
I wonder how much extra the dealer down the road from me is making now that he’s only open one day because his shelves are bare.
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I wonder how much extra the dealer down the road from me is making now that he’s only open one day because his shelves are bare.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI know one store which is occasionally open because they can't get anything. One store out of 6. The other 5 are open 5-7 days a week and full hours. There's plenty to buy. All ammo is rationed. Depending on what the store got and how much will depend on how many boxes you can buy.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
03-09-21, 13:48
SGAmmo has sent out a flier for the first time since June 2020.
This is our first newsletter since June 2020, and I wish I had more inventory to advertise but it has been a crazy 365 days since the historic rush to buy ammo started a year ago. Many things that were once normal have changed in this time including price and availability of ammunition. We have been dealing with severe shortages of supply, demand that has been off the charts, countless price increases from most major manufacturers and importers, dramatic increases in copper prices, a US dollar that has lost substantial value vs the Euro, and shortages on primers and powder for the many ammo manufacturers that rely on 3rd party sources for these two key components needed to build ammo. It has been the 'perfect storm' to drive prices way up and make many popular types of ammo totally unavailable. All things considered I think we have some decent deals on some calibers at this time. Keep in mind almost all handgun and shotgun ammo remains extremely limited as do popular rifle calibers, if this newsletter does not promote calibers or types of ammo that you use then future newsletters will as supply allows. We recommend that you stay subscribed even if this product list does not meet your needs, as other products will come in time. We thank you for your support of our family owned and operated business and will do our best to serve our clients well in these strange times, so please stay subscribed for future SGAmmo newsletters. If you have some spare time please take a few minutes and look over the online catalog at www.SGAmmo.com
"a US dollar that has lost substantial value vs the Euro," Normal trading range, about a 10% change, that isn't what's driving it. Maybe with a tight margin on surplus that goes directly to the bottom line. EU vs $ about at 2018 levels.
Copper per MT is 8500, yes it was 5,000 in April 20, but that was a low, it was 7000 in Oct 17, 4500 early 2016, and about as high as it is now in early 2012.
https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/commodities/hg%3Acmx
My question is that they say supply is down, which shouldn't be right. If it's true, it means their suppliers are selling to someone else instead of them. The manufacturers say that they are churning out ammo. Maybe they are, but big sellers SHOULD be getting as much ammo as they have in the past, or else their distributors are selling to someone else...
At least they have some stock to advertise. Once stock picks up, prices should come down afterwards.
SGAmmo has sent out a flier for the first time since June 2020.
"a US dollar that has lost substantial value vs the Euro," Normal trading range, about a 10% change, that isn't what's driving it. Maybe with a tight margin on surplus that goes directly to the bottom line. EU vs $ about at 2018 levels.
Copper per MT is 8500, yes it was 5,000 in April 20, but that was a low, it was 7000 in Oct 17, 4500 early 2016, and about as high as it is now in early 2012.
https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/commodities/hg%3Acmx
My question is that they say supply is down, which shouldn't be right. If it's true, it means their suppliers are selling to someone else instead of them. The manufacturers say that they are churning out ammo. Maybe they are, but big sellers SHOULD be getting as much ammo as they have in the past, or else their distributors are selling to someone else...
At least they have some stock to advertise. Once stock picks up, prices should come down afterwards.
I had to jump on some 7.62x39 at $399 for a case of 1000. Not too bad and the website says (as of now) there are 150 units available.
Grand58742
03-09-21, 15:31
I had to jump on some 7.62x39 at $399 for a case of 1000. Not too bad and the website says (as of now) there are 150 units available.
Yeah, down to eight cases as I'm posting this.
Crow Hunter
03-09-21, 15:49
SGAmmo has sent out a flier for the first time since June 2020.
"a US dollar that has lost substantial value vs the Euro," Normal trading range, about a 10% change, that isn't what's driving it. Maybe with a tight margin on surplus that goes directly to the bottom line. EU vs $ about at 2018 levels.
Copper per MT is 8500, yes it was 5,000 in April 20, but that was a low, it was 7000 in Oct 17, 4500 early 2016, and about as high as it is now in early 2012.
https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/commodities/hg%3Acmx
My question is that they say supply is down, which shouldn't be right. If it's true, it means their suppliers are selling to someone else instead of them. The manufacturers say that they are churning out ammo. Maybe they are, but big sellers SHOULD be getting as much ammo as they have in the past, or else their distributors are selling to someone else...
At least they have some stock to advertise. Once stock picks up, prices should come down afterwards.
I work in manufacturing as does my wife. Not ammo, unfortunately.
On top of that there are shortages of everything and I mean EVERYTHING. Things I have never heard of running out of before.
Everything from aluminum to bottled nitrogen to screws to cardboard. To the point of shutting down production or nearly so in some cases.
That isn't even counting price increases on what is available.
This is with demand being higher than anything we have ever seen before and the availability of people (or willingness:mad:) to work at the lowest ever. Our suppliers are all seeing the same thing. I don't even listen to the radio anymore because I will yell myself hoarse every time they talk about "unemployment" and "Covid".
If someone doesn't have a job right now, it is because they don't want an "essential one" or aren't willing to move somewhere there are jobs.
To top if off, companies aren't willing to expand production right now (not even talking about ammo companies) because they are scared of what Dementia Doofus and crew's policies are going to do with taxes/demand/inflation.
Way to go America...
:suicide:
When was Sandy Hook, 2013? It’s been difficult to find .22 ever since that occurred and what you stated above seemed to be the only answer for it.
That is certainly not true where I live or buying on-line. Up until the scamdemic I could buy 500 and 525 blocks of .22LR from lgs and Sportsmans Warehouse for around $20. .22LR was plentiful on-line as well. Maybe you were not really looking for it?
I work in manufacturing as does my wife. Not ammo, unfortunately.
On top of that there are shortages of everything and I mean EVERYTHING. Things I have never heard of running out of before.
Everything from aluminum to bottled nitrogen to screws to cardboard. To the point of shutting down production or nearly so in some cases.
That isn't even counting price increases on what is available.
This is with demand being higher than anything we have ever seen before and the availability of people (or willingness:mad:) to work at the lowest ever. Our suppliers are all seeing the same thing. I don't even listen to the radio anymore because I will yell myself hoarse every time they talk about "unemployment" and "Covid".
If someone doesn't have a job right now, it is because they don't want an "essential one" or aren't willing to move somewhere there are jobs.
To top if off, companies aren't willing to expand production right now (not even talking about ammo companies) because they are scared of what Dementia Doofus and crew's policies are going to do with taxes/demand/inflation.
Way to go America...
:suicide:
Don't forget about the reason why people don't want to work... Maybe not up north or out west but in the south the government will pay you more to stay home than you make working.
PracticalRifleman
03-09-21, 16:40
Don’t forget one of the major ammunition plants operated at around 10% capacity from start of Covid until this last month.
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Did the price of steel and copper suddenly increase 500-1000%?
Previous ammo panics and ammo shortages did not result in the kinds of prices we are seeing this time.
What? After 2008 when ammo got resupplied prices had effectively doubled after everything normalized. Also prices have NOT normalized with the current ammo shortages.
Everyone is making money on it. To think otherwise is just naive.
Manufacturers are running 24/7, gotta pay overtime or new hires to meet increased demand, so you charge a higher price.
Dealers are moving massive amounts of product, demand is high and supplies are low, the thought of potential bans means your future returns may not be as significant- so they charge a higher price.
Storefronts and online stores are seeing a massive spike in orders and the same principals apply, higher demand and supply that cannot pace- same thought of potential future returns being diminished due to legislation, charge a higher price.
Neck beards buying all they can and selling for all they can get.
Shit rolls downhill, friends, and yes more money is being made by each person who has a link in the chain.
Jesus. Thank you.
What? After 2008 when ammo got resupplied prices had effectively doubled after everything normalized. Also prices have NOT normalized with the current ammo shortages.
Yes prices went up in 2008. I can remember being shocked and disgusted that I had to pay .17 cents a round for fmj 9mm target ammo. But right now we are seeing $1 per round or higher. pawn shop here in GA had 9mm at $50 for 20 rounds, and people were paying it.
A small increase would be understandable given the circumstances, and given all of the explanations proposed here. 10%, or even 20% would be annoying, but explainable. 500-1000% increases? That's not explainable or understandable.
By the way, I went to Academy today. Shelves were really sparse, but the gun counter guy was polite and helpful. He's got 66 guns coming tomorrow, and they get ammo MWF. Store opens at 9am, and people start lining up for their two boxes of ammo at 6 am. Over 100 people in line by 9am, he says. Not a party I want to attend, but I thought I'd share what I'd learned in case anyone was interested.
Yes prices went up in 2008. I can remember being shocked and disgusted that I had to pay .17 cents a round for fmj 9mm target ammo. But right now we are seeing $1 per round or higher. pawn shop here in GA had 9mm at $50 for 20 rounds, and people were paying it.
A small increase would be understandable given the circumstances, and given all of the explanations proposed here. 10%, or even 20% would be annoying, but explainable. 500-1000% increases? That's not explainable or understandable.
By the way, I went to Academy today. Shelves were really sparse, but the gun counter guy was polite and helpful. He's got 66 guns coming tomorrow, and they get ammo MWF. Store opens at 9am, and people start lining up for their two boxes of ammo at 6 am. Over 100 people in line by 9am, he says. Not a party I want to attend, but I thought I'd share what I'd learned in case anyone was interested.Online it's less than $1/round.
No interest in standing in line, not even if it was the last ammo on earth
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Yeah, down to eight cases as I'm posting this.
Gone now, except for 20 round individual boxes. .55/round compared to the .40/round with the purchase of a case. No wonder it went fast.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-10-21, 02:36
It seems like it is worse now than ever. I was just looking and back in Sept I got 55gr 556 IMII ammo for 50 cents a round, and I thought that was high, so I only bought 500 rounds.
Yes prices went up in 2008. I can remember being shocked and disgusted that I had to pay .17 cents a round for fmj 9mm target ammo. But right now we are seeing $1 per round or higher. pawn shop here in GA had 9mm at $50 for 20 rounds, and people were paying it.
A small increase would be understandable given the circumstances, and given all of the explanations proposed here. 10%, or even 20% would be annoying, but explainable. 500-1000% increases? That's not explainable or understandable.
By the way, I went to Academy today. Shelves were really sparse, but the gun counter guy was polite and helpful. He's got 66 guns coming tomorrow, and they get ammo MWF. Store opens at 9am, and people start lining up for their two boxes of ammo at 6 am. Over 100 people in line by 9am, he says. Not a party I want to attend, but I thought I'd share what I'd learned in case anyone was interested.
You're not following.
Prior to 2008 9mm 100 round value packs were about $29.95 or not much more than a box of 50 from other suppliers. But long after things calmed down, those 100 round value packs never returned to $30, they seemed to be about $50 which was an ok deal.
Now that same 100 round value pack, if you can find it, will cost you about $90 but when things finally calm down next year or whenever I wouldn't be surprised if they are still $75 and that becomes the new "forever" price.
That is what I'm trying to say. Panic prices are temp prices and it always gets crazy, but problem seems to be that they never quite go back to normal.
PracticalRifleman
03-10-21, 07:03
9mm around here is 0.35-0.40/rd.
In 2012/13 it was about that price.
Last year, 9mm was 0.19/rd.
Back in 2012-13, 5.56 was 0.60 locally.
This time it’s selling for 0.80 locally.
Last year it was 0.42 locally.
Yes, I understand online prices are all over the board, then and now.
Academy got in some M80. It’s $1.00/rd.
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The_War_Wagon
03-10-21, 07:58
Estimated 8 million NEW/first time gun owners in the past year. THEY wouldn't know what a PRE-panic price was.
Check this out:
I had 950 rounds of brass cased FMJ 9mm 115 grain stuff. Federal, Winchester range fodder. Bought it pre-panic for twenty cents a round.
Took it to a gun store. I traded that 950 rounds plus $100, out the door, for a Glock 19 Gen 5, new in box, 3 mags, everything.
Shows you how insane the ammo situation is.
Instead of complaining, why don't you start your own ammo manufacturing company or retail store and show us all how it's done? Or at very least learn basic economics. A great place to start is "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. https://mises.org/library/economics-one-lesson
The rise in price due to increased demand is a very good thing and shows the market is working as it should. This is a natural, helpful occurrence that ensures that the people who really need ammo are more likely to get it. People who have huge ammo stacks already are less likely to buy more. In fact, many of those stackers are now thinning their inventories, helping to increase available supply. They would not do so if the price were not high. Very few people/companies in the chain are making more money, even with the higher prices. Factories are running full-tilt instead of at peak efficiency. Retailers are selling less ammo due to reduced availability. They may be seeing higher margins, but that barely offsets the loss in sales volume, if it does at all. Even the guys waiting around to buy at regular prices and selling for a profit are providing a needed service. Not everyone has the time or inclination to hang around a store waiting for an ammo shipment to arrive. It's worth paying a little extra for that service. You don't have to like reality, but I highly recommend accepting it.
The idea that other people should just give you whatever you want at whatever price you think is fair, is just childish, entitled thinking. Sorry if that's too blunt.
I've been a gun owner through every panic over the last 30 years, including the 1994 AWB. Each time I thought it was the end of the world, yet here we are again.
Instead of complaining, why don't you start your own ammo manufacturing company or retail store and show us all how it's done? Or at very least learn basic economics. A great place to start is "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. https://mises.org/library/economics-one-lesson
The rise in price due to increased demand is a very good thing and shows the market is working as it should. This is a natural, helpful occurrence that ensures that the people who really need ammo are more likely to get it. People who have huge ammo stacks already are less likely to buy more. In fact, many of those stackers are now thinning their inventories, helping to increase available supply. They would not do so if the price were not high. Very few people/companies in the chain are making more money, even with the higher prices. Factories are running full-tilt instead of at peak efficiency. Retailers are selling less ammo due to reduced availability. They may be seeing higher margins, but that barely offsets the loss in sales volume, if it does at all. Even the guys waiting around to buy at regular prices and selling for a profit are providing a needed service. Not everyone has the time or inclination to hang around a store waiting for an ammo shipment to arrive. It's worth paying a little extra for that service. You don't have to like reality, but I highly recommend accepting it.
The idea that other people should just give you whatever you want at whatever price you think is fair, is just childish, entitled thinking. Sorry if that's too blunt.
I've been a gun owner through every panic over the last 30 years, including the 1994 AWB. Each time I thought it was the end of the world, yet here we are again.
Makes sense. See my post #72 immediately above.
What did I accomplish by doing that? Who benefited?
1. I benefited. I had maybe $200 invested in that ammo. So for $300 I got a brand new G19.
2. Gun store benefited. They can sell that ammo for more than it cost them from me. Also, importantly, it's sometimes harder for them to sell a new gun when they can't sell the customer the ammo to get started. So maybe they miss a sale for lack of ammo? This alleviates that potential problem.
3. Ammo buyer benefits. I released 950 rounds of ammo that was just sitting doing nothing. Now it'll soon be in the hands of a shooter, quite possibly that new gun purchaser who needs it to allay fears real or imagined.
There is a gulf of difference between someone who stockpiled ammunition when it was readily available and the A-holes who buy up every bit of ammunition expressly to scalp it and profit.
I have nothing but admiration for the deep stackers who are helping to ease the shortage and realizing a windfall return on their investments.
The scalpers buying up all available ammo when it hits the shelves expressly to resell at 2 or 3 times the price they paid? I hope they are so busy finger banging the ammo they just cleaned off the shelves that they pull out in front of a heavily loaded semi...
Andy
There is a gulf of difference between someone who stockpiled ammunition when it was readily available and the A-holes who buy up every bit of ammunition expressly to scalp it and profit.
I have nothing but admiration for the deep stackers who are helping to ease the shortage and realizing a windfall return on their investments.
The scalpers buying up all available ammo when it hits the shelves expressly to resell at 2 or 3 times the price they paid? I hope they are so busy finger banging the ammo they just cleaned off the shelves that they pull out in front of a heavily loaded semi...
Andy
You mean like sell ammo? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a stockpile?
Seriously, I've only sold ammo twice.
Once when I sold my FN USG 5.7mm I had a bunch of the first batch of "civie" ammo that had become collectible, so when I sold the handgun I sold the ammo with it.
When my Romanian PSL (which I paid $699 for) started selling for $2,500+ I sold that and sold a couple crates of 7.62x54R as I only needed enough to feed my M91/30s.
The scalpers buying up all available ammo when it hits the shelves expressly to resell at 2 or 3 times the price they paid?
Andy
Does anyone have actual examples of this happening or is it just myth or hyperbole? If so, who is forcing people to buy at those prices? There are lots of bad things to be angry about in this world. Choose wisely.
Does anyone have actual examples of this happening or is it just myth or hyperbole? If so, who is forcing people to buy at those prices? There are lots of bad things to be angry about in this world. Choose wisely.
I have circumstantial evidence. At recent gun shows I see the same stuff that people stand in line for at Academy. But now it's a dollar a round. You never used to see that, as gun show ammo vendors had their own sources of wholesale supply. I've no doubt that this is what's happening.
You mean like sell ammo? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a stockpile?
Seriously, I've only sold ammo twice.
THIS. I’ve sold ammo once and it was to a buddy to help him get a little stockpile of his own going.
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Is it wise to sell ammo (or primers) that you will never be able to replace at the same price? Not if you would replace it, but its a heck of a return on your investment.
Andy
Does anyone have actual examples of this happening or is it just myth or hyperbole? If so, who is forcing people to buy at those prices? There are lots of bad things to be angry about in this world. Choose wisely.
During the .22 shortage the scalpers did not even bother taking the WalMart price tags off the boxes before they brought them to the gunshows.
Agreed, no one is forced to buy from scalpers and I wish the would not.
Andy
Pacific5th
03-11-21, 07:15
Was at Cabelas the other day and one of the employees said they had a line at the door every morning. When I asked if it was the same people everyday she said yes.
Makes sense. See my post #72 immediately above.
What did I accomplish by doing that? Who benefited?
1. I benefited. I had maybe $200 invested in that ammo. So for $300 I got a brand new G19.
2. Gun store benefited. They can sell that ammo for more than it cost them from me. Also, importantly, it's sometimes harder for them to sell a new gun when they can't sell the customer the ammo to get started. So maybe they miss a sale for lack of ammo? This alleviates that potential problem.
3. Ammo buyer benefits. I released 950 rounds of ammo that was just sitting doing nothing. Now it'll soon be in the hands of a shooter, quite possibly that new gun purchaser who needs it to allay fears real or imagined.
Depends on what a Gen 5 19 sells for. You paid about $700 for it not $300.
I feel ya. We had a gun show two weekends ago and they were selling the spam cans of 7n6 for $550. I’ve got half of dozen sitting in a crate right now and I was tempted to move a couple but then I wouldn’t have that ammo or a way to replace it, and the $550 I could’ve had is declining in value vs the ammo in increasing.
You mean like sell ammo? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a stockpile?
Seriously, I've only sold ammo twice.
Once when I sold my FN USG 5.7mm I had a bunch of the first batch of "civie" ammo that had become collectible, so when I sold the handgun I sold the ammo with it.
When my Romanian PSL (which I paid $699 for) started selling for $2,500+ I sold that and sold a couple crates of 7.62x54R as I only needed enough to feed my M91/30s.
PracticalRifleman
03-11-21, 08:11
Is it wise to sell ammo (or primers) that you will never be able to replace at the same price? Not if you would replace it, but its a heck of a return on your investment.
Andy
Shouldn’t the question be will you replace it for less than you sold it for?
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If I'm going to sell ammo now it better be well worth it. Like to the point where it offsets the idea of replacing that case and breaking even. Trading it for yet another gun? Meh! Have a safe full of those.
Like if 5.45 tins hit a $G I'd lighten my shelves by half a dozen or so
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During the .22 shortage the scalpers did not even bother taking the WalMart price tags off the boxes before they brought them to the gunshows.
Agreed, no one is forced to buy from scalpers and I wish the would not.
Andy
Those who study history will note a parallel here with the old communist Soviet Union.
There, anybody who bought low and sold high was called a "speculator" and could be imprisoned. Here they are called "scalpers" and are subjected to opprobrium.
So: faced with a rational response to a changing free market, at least some members of the ostensibly conservative 2A community converge on the Stalinist USSR.
I find that interesting.
Those who study history will note a parallel here with the old communist Soviet Union.
There, anybody who bought low and sold high was called a "speculator" and could be imprisoned. Here they are called "scalpers" and are subjected to opprobrium.
So: faced with a rational response to a changing free market, at least some members of the ostensibly conservative 2A community converge on the Stalinist USSR.
I find that interesting.
You really can't compare everything that seems similar to the USSR
You weren't doing that in the Soviet Union. People like that existed but not common and usually connected.
Soviet Union was a large open air black market. You want my 4lbs of bananas for your 2lbs of potatoes? I have a set of barely used tires for your case of cognac? My cousin can get me a case of caviar I'll trade you for X pairs of childrens socks! It was kinda like that. For food there was a phrase called "the soviet miracle". Stores were always empty and lines were long but oddly enough fridges were always full! Products always fell of the truck!
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I've been saying for years and years that there will come a day where Ammunition will become currency.
We might be getting close.
I've been saying for years and years that there will come a day where Ammunition will become currency.
We might be getting close.
At last weekend's gun show, a vendor told me that he paid for some home remodeling with 5.56mm ammo.
P2Vaircrewman
03-11-21, 12:13
A significant amount of Winchester 5.56 200 round boxes @ $125 still on the shelf two hours after store opening at the local Academy. Not cheap but at least available. Also more handguns than I have seen in a year.
Grand58742
03-11-21, 12:27
With the gun control bill heading for the Senate and could pass, I'd expect (another) run on firearms this weekend.
With the gun control bill heading for the Senate and could pass, I'd expect (another) run on firearms this weekend.
If the marxists are allowed to pass the laws they want, ammunition availabilty will become irrelevant.
Andy
Averageman
03-11-21, 12:37
I see what I assume are retirees lining up for ammo at five every morning.
I don't mind, if it is helping them out. It might not be ethical, but really, what is anymore.
PracticalRifleman
03-11-21, 12:41
I see what I assume are retirees lining up for ammo at five every morning.
I don't mind, if it is helping them out. It might not be ethical, but really, what is anymore.
Yeah they are being genuine assholes. I hope they break hips.
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With the gun control bill heading for the Senate and could pass, I'd expect (another) run on firearms this weekend.
With the help of 8 Republican back stabbers.
Grand58742
03-11-21, 12:50
With the help of 8 Republican back stabbers.
Here's the tally
https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/202175
It’s all part of the plan. It’s cute how you all think you can affect the outcome
Averageman
03-11-21, 20:59
Yeah they are being genuine assholes. I hope they break hips.
Hey now, I'm quickly approaching that age, but yeah, they smell like ensure and Marlborough Reds and when was the last time they washed that field jacket anyway?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-12-21, 01:52
I have some 40 Smith & Wesson ammo, but no more 40 Cal guns. I don’t know if I should try to sell it or just trade it for some 9 or 556 ammo.
Hey now, I'm quickly approaching that age, but yeah, they smell like ensure and Marlborough Reds and when was the last time they washed that field jacket anyway?
https://i.imgflip.com/30ynfd.png
Heh heh just bought a few more cases. Dumbass millenials. Figure I can make good money at the gun show this weekend. $3 a round for this Wolf .223 I KNOW WUT I GOT!!
______________________________
USMC 1987-1988 MOS 0161
Wal-Mart Loss Prevention
Certified Bounty Hunter
I’m from Texas!
My kid beat up your honor student!
(III%)
PracticalRifleman
03-12-21, 07:43
https://i.imgflip.com/30ynfd.png
Heh heh just bought a few more cases. Dumbass millenials. Figure I can make good money at the gun show this weekend. $3 a round for this Wolf .223 I KNOW WUT I GOT!!
______________________________
USMC 1987-1988 MOS 0161
Wal-Mart Loss Prevention
Certified Bounty Hunter
I’m from Texas!
My kid beat up your honor student!
(III%)
[emoji23]
Postal clerk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://i.imgflip.com/30ynfd.png
Heh heh just bought a few more cases. Dumbass millenials. Figure I can make good money at the gun show this weekend. $3 a round for this Wolf .223 I KNOW WUT I GOT!!
______________________________
USMC 1987-1988 MOS 0161
Wal-Mart Loss Prevention
Certified Bounty Hunter
I’m from Texas!
My kid beat up your honor student!
(III%)You forgot NRA certified range master!
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
It’s all part of the plan. It’s cute how you all think you can affect the outcome
Careful with that "You all"....some of us know better....
Those who study history will note a parallel here with the old communist Soviet Union.
There, anybody who bought low and sold high was called a "speculator" and could be imprisoned. Here they are called "scalpers" and are subjected to opprobrium.
So: faced with a rational response to a changing free market, at least some members of the ostensibly conservative 2A community converge on the Stalinist USSR.
I find that interesting.
This is actually right on. The left stirs up people's greed and envy and we turn on each other, which distracts us from focusing on the real problem--the State. You see it with the race-baiting, rich-hating oppression olympics all the time. And many of you are falling for this same tactic. You whine about people engaging in free trade. Why? Because it's not FAIR! Without realizing it, you sound just like AOC, BLM and Antifa. What will you do, cry to big daddy government to come in and punish those naughty people? The government would love nothing more than to step in and "solve" the problem (i.e. make things worse).
We must all hang together or-- well, you know the saying.
This is actually right on. The left stirs up people's greed and envy and we turn on each other, which distracts us from focusing on the real problem--the State. You see it with the race-baiting, rich-hating oppression olympics all the time. And many of you are falling for this same tactic. You whine about people engaging in free trade. Why? Because it's not FAIR! Without realizing it, you sound just like AOC, BLM and Antifa. What will you do, cry to big daddy government to come in and punish those naughty people? The government would love nothing more than to step in and "solve" the problem (i.e. make things worse).
We must all hang together or-- well, you know the saying.
So we are marxists because we don't support people being @ssholes?
Andy
I'm not against a guy making some honest money, and speculating on ammo is probably as honest as selling used cars. They both can be honest. But not everything is about making money all the time in every situation. Sometimes helping someone expecting no personal payoff is the right thing to do.
So we are marxists because we don't support people being @ssholes?
Andy
Strawman down! I repeat, strawman down!
https://www.logicalfallacies.org/strawman.html
Averageman
03-12-21, 15:44
Well, you live and you learn.
I've seen this happen with ammo about a half dozen times and I learned my lesson a long time ago.
Buy Cheap, Stack Deep.
PracticalRifleman
03-12-21, 16:04
Well, you live and you learn.
I've seen this happen with ammo about a half dozen times and I learned my lesson a long time ago.
Buy Cheap, Stack Deep.
Yup.
I have enough ammo, components, and mags to last the rest of my life at this point providing I stop doing USPSA. In 2019, I shot over 20,000 rounds. Can’t do that nonsense right now. But I can keep my skills to an acceptable level.
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Business_Casual
03-13-21, 19:11
Stop saying “price gouging” that doesn’t exist. There’s no such thing. Price is information, if it is high that means one thing, if it is low that means another.
Stop saying “price gouging” that doesn’t exist. There’s no such thing. Price is information, if it is high that means one thing, if it is low that means another.
Tell,us what you are thinking because what you just typed is completely ambiguous. High prices mean people are making money and selling what they have, low prices mean a bargain, change my mind.
Business_Casual
03-15-21, 10:47
If prices are high, demand is high and supply is low. If prices are low, demand is low and supply is high. Price controls the distribution of resources, full stop. This is why non-capitalist systems don’t work to distribute goods and services.
If prices are high, demand is high and supply is low. If prices are low, demand is low and supply is high. Price controls the distribution of resources, full stop. This is why non-capitalist systems don’t work to distribute goods and services.
Yep! Color me old. Like the picture. But I don't smoke and hang out to buy ammunition every morning. I have been in the game for 55 years and have 10s of thousands of rounds of 9mm and 556. I don't shoot much anymore and am fixing to dump some ammo. For every 10,000 rounds of 9mm at .75 per round I'll include a free pistol. For every 10,000 rounds of 556 at buck each I'll throw in a mid grade rifle. I am looking forward to my future screwing dumbasses!
This is actually right on. The left stirs up people's greed and envy and we turn on each other, which distracts us from focusing on the real problem--the State. You see it with the race-baiting, rich-hating oppression olympics all the time. And many of you are falling for this same tactic. You whine about people engaging in free trade. Why? Because it's not FAIR! Without realizing it, you sound just like AOC, BLM and Antifa. What will you do, cry to big daddy government to come in and punish those naughty people? The government would love nothing more than to step in and "solve" the problem (i.e. make things worse).
We must all hang together or-- well, you know the saying.
Kinda doubt a scenario where a person that is showing every indication they would sell you a piece of cord and a stick for whatever cash and valuables you have on you while blood is spurting out of your thigh (even better if they have played some role in getting you to that point) could be described as hanging together.
Price Gouging is an all the way Dick Move. Make your money from desperate people now, because you won’t get any money from me later.
It’s not “capitalism”. It’s more of the “Fat kid with the football” mentality that pervades the ‘gun community’.
I always believed that guns are like comic books and are meant to be enjoyed, traded, and shared.
But the Fat Kids with the Football will sell you a $400 (on a good day) Anderson for $1500. It’s just not worth that much. When people give me the hackeneyed “It’s just Capitalism” spiel I then immediately ask them:
Okay how much for a night with your wife and college age daughter?
And then I get: “What the hell kinda question is that?!”
To which I reply: Aw iTs JuSt CapItaLisM. Everything has a price. So seriously, how much?
PracticalRifleman
03-16-21, 08:11
Price Gouging is an all the way Dick Move. Make your money from desperate people now, because you won’t get any money from me later.
It’s not “capitalism”. It’s more of the “Fat kid with the football” mentality that pervades the ‘gun community’.
I always believed that guns are like comic books and are meant to be enjoyed, traded, and shared.
But the Fat Kids with the Football will sell you a $400 (on a good day) Anderson for $1500. It’s just not worth that much. When people give me the hackeneyed “It’s just Capitalism” spiel I then immediately ask them:
Okay how much for a night with your wife and college age daughter?
And then I get: “What the hell kinda question is that?!”
To which I reply: Aw iTs JuSt CapItaLisM. Everything has a price. So seriously, how much?
A man approached Hillary and asked, “if I donate ten million dollars to your campaign, will you spend the night with me?”
Hillary, always looking for easy money replied, “for ten million, of course I would! I can do so much good in the world with that money.”
The man asks, “what if I give you one dollar, will you spend the night with me?”
Hillary was obviously disgusted, “of course not, what do you think I am?”
The man replied, “we’ve established what you are, now we are negotiating.”
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. In general, I think the ammo supply has mostly moved from retail shelves to consumer storage.
Estate sales are gonna be lit af.
https://i.imgflip.com/30ynfd.png
Heh heh just bought a few more cases. Dumbass millenials. Figure I can make good money at the gun show this weekend. $3 a round for this Wolf .223 I KNOW WUT I GOT!!
______________________________
USMC 1987-1988 MOS 0161
Wal-Mart Loss Prevention
Certified Bounty Hunter
I’m from Texas!
My kid beat up your honor student!
(III%)
Hahaha. You win the internet today.
Does anyone have actual examples of this happening or is it just myth or hyperbole? If so, who is forcing people to buy at those prices? There are lots of bad things to be angry about in this world. Choose wisely.
There’s at least one member of this forum that claims to be doing exactly that. But, see above. If we just don’t take the bait, we can buy it from their grandkids when they die.
Check this out:
I had 950 rounds of brass cased FMJ 9mm 115 grain stuff. Federal, Winchester range fodder. Bought it pre-panic for twenty cents a round.
Took it to a gun store. I traded that 950 rounds plus $100, out the door, for a Glock 19 Gen 5, new in box, 3 mags, everything.
Shows you how insane the ammo situation is.
So, lemme get this straight. You traded a case of 9mm ammo toward the purchase of a ...... 9mm handgun? Do you even shoot, bro?
Business_Casual
03-16-21, 13:06
Price Gouging is an all the way Dick Move. Make your money from desperate people now, because you won’t get any money from me later.
It’s not “capitalism”. It’s more of the “Fat kid with the football” mentality that pervades the ‘gun community’.
I always believed that guns are like comic books and are meant to be enjoyed, traded, and shared.
But the Fat Kids with the Football will sell you a $400 (on a good day) Anderson for $1500. It’s just not worth that much. When people give me the hackeneyed “It’s just Capitalism” spiel I then immediately ask them:
Okay how much for a night with your wife and college age daughter?
And then I get: “What the hell kinda question is that?!”
To which I reply: Aw iTs JuSt CapItaLisM. Everything has a price. So seriously, how much?
You don’t have to buy during the panic. You can choose to not buy, buy before the panic or buy after the panic. You are putting up straw man arguments.
Averageman
03-16-21, 13:18
Price Gouging is an all the way Dick Move. Make your money from desperate people now, because you won’t get any money from me later.
It’s not “capitalism”. It’s more of the “Fat kid with the football” mentality that pervades the ‘gun community’.
I always believed that guns are like comic books and are meant to be enjoyed, traded, and shared.
But the Fat Kids with the Football will sell you a $400 (on a good day) Anderson for $1500. It’s just not worth that much. When people give me the hackeneyed “It’s just Capitalism” spiel I then immediately ask them:
Okay how much for a night with your wife and college age daughter?
And then I get: “What the hell kinda question is that?!”
To which I reply: Aw iTs JuSt CapItaLisM. Everything has a price. So seriously, how much?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLUiK2lbN2s
How much for your Women?
You don’t have to buy during the panic. You can choose to not buy, buy before the panic or buy after the panic. You are putting up straw man arguments.
I have learned that “straw man” is code for: You made an excellent point that I cannot refute, but it makes me look bad because I am guilty and have no shame, so I have to say “straw man” to sound smart.
Anybody selling for too much activates my inner Neinhorn and makes me almost wish it was all automatic 25 years Federal Felony to possess ammo so that way we can either get the party started or see the tourists trip over themselves to cuck.
Either way, if you wish to be an ammo pimp. It’s cringe, and I’ll never respect you, but have at it.
PracticalRifleman
03-16-21, 14:15
Who’s to decide how much is too much? Local shop here was $400/k for 5.56 before the panic. It was $299.99 at one online retailer, but $369 on another. Are all but the lowest cost assholes?
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“We’re just selling what the market can handle”
NEIN
“It’s just Capitalism”
NEIN
“Think of ammunition like gasoline. It’s just how things are”
NEIN
“It doesn’t hurt to make money off selling the ammo I never intended to shoot”
NEIN
“It’s not neckbearding to profit from an election and a ‘pandemic’. It’s just business.”
NEIN
“$3 for .223 is reasonable”
NEIN
“Price gouging filters out the serious buyers from the tirekickers and price shoppers. So it’s a good thing”
NEIN
https://amp.infranken.de/storage/image/7/1/3/0/3370317_noscale_1usuu8_iqeMnJ.jpg
The longer you artificially protract this, the more it becomes the “new normal”. This is the fat gun guy equivalent of demanding $15 an hour and benefits to flip my $2 hamburger.
I mean. Stabbing people is still an option. Been that way since Bible days
Business_Casual
03-16-21, 14:47
I have learned that “straw man” is code for: You made an excellent point that I cannot refute, but it makes me look bad because I am guilty and have no shame, so I have to say “straw man” to sound smart.
Anybody selling for too much activates my inner Neinhorn and makes me almost wish it was all automatic 25 years Federal Felony to possess ammo so that way we can either get the party started or see the tourists trip over themselves to cuck.
Either way, if you wish to be an ammo pimp. It’s cringe, and I’ll never respect you, but have at it.
The fact that you don’t understand markets and economics doesn’t mean I can’t refute your point. It means you refuse to accept it. Have a nice day, sir.
The fact that you don’t understand markets and economics doesn’t mean I can’t refute your point. It means you refuse to accept it. Have a nice day, sir.
Said everybody on Wall St. until they did Extreme BASE jumping in 1929.
:)
PracticalRifleman
03-16-21, 15:28
When demand is higher than supply, you get a shortage. I mean you can pretend like prices shouldn’t increase when cost of production and demand are high, that just means you won’t have an opportunity to buy it at any price.
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When demand is higher than supply, you get a shortage. I mean you can pretend like prices shouldn’t increase when cost of production and demand are high, that just means you won’t have an opportunity to buy it at any price.
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Nein.
You don’t seem to understand. You aren’t dealing in Krugerrands nor Silver.
You are talking about dispensable goods with a shelf life. By perpetuating the panic to make short term profit you are thereby:
-bilking people in the first wave of panic
-making regular people go “wow, miss me with that”
-Running serious risk of creating another Bubble.
And don’t think there isn’t some planning behind this. I don’t like Biden either but even if they pass some supremely hardcore gun laws; they aren’t banning Ammo. And if they DID pass what they are wanting to pass then it will definitely have a backlash.
This inauthentic sense of “urgency” is stupid. Anybody buying ammo right now. Is stupid. Anybody selling ammo for profit right now, is an asshole.
I would rather cut down on my recreational shooting and focus on oodles of other things than pay for some flake’s kid’s dental work on a consumable item.
It may take two years but no. A dollar for a single 9mm round is stupid. $2 for Wolf is stupid. Price gouging is stupid.
It should be sold at cost and if it sells out, it sells out. It’s not Gold. Nor Silver.
And before someone “AKCHUALLY”s at me, if it ever got to the point of a full on actual boogaloo (it won’t) then there will be plenty of free ammo on the ground plus Bleach and Ammonia prices are holding low and fast.
I sometimes ponder if our generation has even earned the right to bear arms. You didn’t see the Framers fvcking each other over for a percentage.
PracticalRifleman
03-16-21, 17:38
Nein.
You don’t seem to understand. You aren’t dealing in Krugerrands nor Silver.
You are talking about dispensable goods with a shelf life. By perpetuating the panic to make short term profit you are thereby:
-bilking people in the first wave of panic
-making regular people go “wow, miss me with that”
-Running serious risk of creating another Bubble.
And don’t think there isn’t some planning behind this. I don’t like Biden either but even if they pass some supremely hardcore gun laws; they aren’t banning Ammo. And if they DID pass what they are wanting to pass then it will definitely have a backlash.
This inauthentic sense of “urgency” is stupid. Anybody buying ammo right now. Is stupid. Anybody selling ammo for profit right now, is an asshole.
I would rather cut down on my recreational shooting and focus on oodles of other things than pay for some flake’s kid’s dental work on a consumable item.
It may take two years but no. A dollar for a single 9mm round is stupid. $2 for Wolf is stupid. Price gouging is stupid.
It should be sold at cost and if it sells out, it sells out. It’s not Gold. Nor Silver.
And before someone “AKCHUALLY”s at me, if it ever got to the point of a full on actual boogaloo (it won’t) then there will be plenty of free ammo on the ground plus Bleach and Ammonia prices are holding low and fast.
I sometimes ponder if our generation has even earned the right to bear arms. You didn’t see the Framers fvcking each other over for a percentage.
The problem is I DO understand. Markets don’t care about the value you place on ammo.
By the way, I know dudes shooting 100 year old ammo all the time.
Whatever the sense of urgency’s origin, it’s there and people demand ammo. I’m not buying and many here aren’t buying. But if you want to buy, you can only buy because prices have increased. Otherwise it would be sold instantly and never even touch the shelf.
Don’t like it, don’t buy. But your feelings don’t matter. Why are you being so much like a Gen Z twit with your feelings?
I suppose you also hate auctioneers?
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You know, modern ammo isn’t exactly like the old corrosive 7.62x54R. It still has a shelf life. Not all ammo is the same and anything can degrade. I won’t deign to assume when certain powders lose their efficacy but that Winchester White Box is simply not a forever item unless you hermetically sealed it.
I won’t dignify the feelings spiel. Nor the Zoomer spiel.
If you haven’t noticed the artificial and cyclical nature of these ammo famines we have now every four or five years, then it just means you’re complicit.
We all know $60 for a box of ball 7.62 is silly. There is simply no reason to pay that much other than to pad a scalper’s wallet. It’s worse than Phish tickets.
I don’t mind an auction on a piece no longer made. That’s as much as people want to pay. But Federal and Winchester are working in shifts to make ammo and the usual neckbeards are buying it all then gouging.
That’s bullshit. It’s unethical but not illegal and I just won’t be doing business with those people in the future.
It’s getting where these “panics” are predictable. I know a lot of ammo hogs don’t shoot. They just sit and wait to gouge and it’s tacky. I will simply never need ammo that badly.
You know, modern ammo isn’t exactly like the old corrosive 7.62x54R. It still has a shelf life. Not all ammo is the same and anything can degrade. I won’t deign to assume when certain powders lose their efficacy but that Winchester White Box is simply not a forever item unless you hermetically sealed it.
I won’t dignify the feelings spiel. Nor the Zoomer spiel.
If you haven’t noticed the artificial and cyclical nature of these ammo famines we have now every four or five years, then it just means you’re complicit.
We all know $60 for a box of ball 7.62 is silly. There is simply no reason to pay that much other than to pad a scalper’s wallet. It’s worse than Phish tickets.
I don’t mind an auction on a piece no longer made. That’s as much as people want to pay. But Federal and Winchester are working in shifts to make ammo and the usual neckbeards are buying it all then gouging.
That’s bullshit. It’s unethical but not illegal and I just won’t be doing business with those people in the future.
It’s getting where these “panics” are predictable. I know a lot of ammo hogs don’t shoot. They just sit and wait to gouge and it’s tacky. I will simply never need ammo that badly.
I 100% agree
PracticalRifleman
03-16-21, 18:53
You know, modern ammo isn’t exactly like the old corrosive 7.62x54R. It still has a shelf life. Not all ammo is the same and anything can degrade. I won’t deign to assume when certain powders lose their efficacy but that Winchester White Box is simply not a forever item unless you hermetically sealed it.
I won’t dignify the feelings spiel. Nor the Zoomer spiel.
If you haven’t noticed the artificial and cyclical nature of these ammo famines we have now every four or five years, then it just means you’re complicit.
We all know $60 for a box of ball 7.62 is silly. There is simply no reason to pay that much other than to pad a scalper’s wallet. It’s worse than Phish tickets.
I don’t mind an auction on a piece no longer made. That’s as much as people want to pay. But Federal and Winchester are working in shifts to make ammo and the usual neckbeards are buying it all then gouging.
That’s bullshit. It’s unethical but not illegal and I just won’t be doing business with those people in the future.
It’s getting where these “panics” are predictable. I know a lot of ammo hogs don’t shoot. They just sit and wait to gouge and it’s tacky. I will simply never need ammo that badly.
Of course the panics are predictable.
But it is free-market economics.
Show me on the doll where the market hurt you.
Yeah, it’s obviously hurt your feelings that people are willing to buy at the price others are willing to sell.
Again, you’d rather people have no option to buy and everything to be completely out of stock.
F your feelings, man.
ETA if modern ammo is stored properly, it will last generations. Old WWI and WWII .30-06 isn’t “corrosive 7.62x54r” and believe it or not, is basically the same at what is made now.
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Actually a LOT if not most WWII 30-06 is indeed corrosive. And it is in no way made the same now. American Eagle makes M1 friendly ammo but it is not WWII ammo at all.
You’re awfully defensive here bringing it back to feelings. My thesis is the neckbearding has created another layer of middlemen attempting to force hyperinflation on their wares in order to take advantage of people. It’s invidious and crass.
I get it, it makes you feel like Gordon Gekko of the Gun Show but as they say down here the hit dog hollers first. You know what you’re doing is skeevy. God sees. He also sees you in the shower. But hey, that’s on you.
My hope is that enough people simply say “No. Not paying that much” and the foolishness stops. A great thing that would happen would be if all the late night E-Snipers ended up overpaying hoping to gouge but ended up with a net loss because people started waiting for Federal to catch up. Then you’ll cut at a loss. Because we know you aren’t shooting. And it’ll be funny.
Or even BETTER would be if Joe Biden made a UBC for ammo sales and made it where you had to keep records or purchases and sales due to the constant resale for profit.
None of you ostensibly educated people see the unintended consequences of your actions.
F my feelings? Ha Ha Ha
You’re the ones contributing to the decline. And I find it delish
PracticalRifleman
03-16-21, 19:58
Actually a LOT if not most WWII 30-06 is indeed corrosive. And it is in no way made the same now. American Eagle makes M1 friendly ammo but it is not WWII ammo at all.
You’re awfully defensive here bringing it back to feelings. My thesis is the neckbearding has created another layer of middlemen attempting to force hyperinflation on their wares in order to take advantage of people. It’s invidious and crass.
I get it, it makes you feel like Gordon Gekko of the Gun Show but as they say down here the hit dog hollers first. You know what you’re doing is skeevy. God sees. He also sees you in the shower. But hey, that’s on you.
My hope is that enough people simply say “No. Not paying that much” and the foolishness stops. A great thing that would happen would be if all the late night E-Snipers ended up overpaying hoping to gouge but ended up with a net loss because people started waiting for Federal to catch up. Then you’ll cut at a loss. Because we know you aren’t shooting. And it’ll be funny.
Or even BETTER would be if Joe Biden made a UBC for ammo sales and made it where you had to keep records or purchases and sales due to the constant resale for profit.
None of you ostensibly educated people see the unintended consequences of your actions.
F my feelings? Ha Ha Ha
You’re the ones contributing to the decline. And I find it delish
I’m contributing? How did I contribute? By not condemning market prices and advocating for empty shelves?
I contributed by always buying when nobody else was? By being well-stocked?
And now you are here “hoping” Biden managed to make UBCs on ammo because your feelings are hurt? Real mature of you.
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The intelligent people are seeing my point and you’re still marching on about feelings I don’t have.
Let me bring it to your level.
The big government types watch everything you do. They don’t like it when money is made and they aren’t getting a cut. This is why all the drugs they can’t reliably tax are illegal.
The more people who start getting an actual profit on ammo resale are going to get the attention of revenue types. You...didn’t think they haven’t been noticing these trends? The more participation and the more people doing it invariably spurs a “call to action” and BOOP. Another ruling from the cubicle. Another “decision”. Because Ammunition is still a controlled item. It seems like it’s not because FOPA 86 did away with seller’s registries but that can always be undone with a pen and a phone.
Why do none of you get the NUANCE?! If I spoke plainly and not in riddles at times then it wouldn’t be fun.
I gave you all the hints. It’s not like gold, silver, or comic books. You’re fvcking with things that will ultimately make Uncle Sam say “Where’s my share?”
And then it will be too late. I mean.....don’t you know there’s a Bill gaining traction right now in a majority Dem congress?
But don’t let that stand in the way of making a little money. All the pimps I’ve put away thought they were entrepreneurs too ;)
PracticalRifleman
03-16-21, 20:32
The intelligent people are seeing my point and you’re still marching on about feelings I don’t have.
Let me bring it to your level.
The big government types watch everything you do. They don’t like it when money is made and they aren’t getting a cut. This is why all the drugs they can’t reliably tax are illegal.
The more people who start getting an actual profit on ammo resale are going to get the attention of revenue types. You...didn’t think they haven’t been noticing these trends? The more participation and the more people doing it invariably spurs a “call to action” and BOOP. Another ruling from the cubicle. Another “decision”. Because Ammunition is still a controlled item. It seems like it’s not because FOPA 86 did away with seller’s registries but that can always be undone with a pen and a phone.
Why do none of you get the NUANCE?! If I spoke plainly and not in riddles at times then it wouldn’t be fun.
I gave you all the hints. It’s not like gold, silver, or comic books. You’re fvcking with things that will ultimately make Uncle Sam say “Where’s my share?”
And then it will be too late. I mean.....don’t you know there’s a Bill gaining traction right now in a majority Dem congress?
But don’t let that stand in the way of making a little money. All the pimps I’ve put away thought they were entrepreneurs too ;)
Dude, it’s not that you’re all super-smart and nobody else has thought of this.
You’ve admitted above: feelings.
You want bad things to happen to people.
Truth is you hate capitalism and you’re using excuses.
Newsflash: ammunition isn’t the only thing that experiences scarcity and higher prices on secondary markets.
Your argument is terrible: don’t be capitalists because Uncle Sam may catch wind.
That’s like saying not to use pistol braces or build P80s....
Go back and make sure Uncle Sam gets a cut of your shemale hooker money.
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Don’t worry. I’ll be along to tell you”I told you so”
PracticalRifleman
03-16-21, 20:50
Don’t worry. I’ll be along to tell you”I told you so”
Cool story. You think the peanuts the government isn’t getting to tax on the secondary market, which none of the other things traded on secondary markets are taxed, will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back?
Don’t be naive. They want your guns. They want your ammo. They want you to be a disarmed subject. Taxation of secondary markets isn’t the reason.
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The big government types watch everything you do. They don’t like it when money is made and they aren’t getting a cut. This is why all the drugs they can’t reliably tax are illegal.
The more people who start getting an actual profit on ammo resale are going to get the attention of revenue types.
Who in the holy hell would sell anything and not try to make a profit?
In case you have not noticed most ammo retailers have raised prices lately so they can maintain a profit margin.
Also funny how you seem to know how the member you were responding to does his taxes. You have no idea what he claims for income or deducts as expenses but...
The shit some of you old geezers allow yourself to get worked up about is mind blowing at times.
ETA if modern ammo is stored properly, it will last generations. Old WWI and WWII .30-06 isn’t “corrosive 7.62x54r” and believe it or not, is basically the same at what is made now.
According to The NRA Handloaders Guide published in 1968, there was a noncorrosive Berdan primer used in National Match ammo made by Frankford Arsenal in 1930.
All US WWII ammo had corrosive(but nonmercuric) primers with the exception of all .30 Carbine ammo and "a limited quantity of .30-'06 ball ammunition manufactured late in the war in Canada."
US commercial ammo switched entirely to noncorrosive primers by the early 1930's with 2 exceptions being Winchester-Western Super-Match
.30-'06 & .300 H&H Magnum that were made until 1960.
Everything I have read(IIRC including this manual) indicates that chlorate/corrosive primers are stable for eternity while thoughts on noncorrosive range from maybe not so much so on remaining good to guaranteed to go bad at some point. I have seen an article mentioning early European noncorrosive ammo (seems like it was Swedish or Swiss) that the author all but guaranteed any still around would not fire.
Actually a LOT if not most WWII 30-06 is indeed corrosive. And it is in no way made the same now. American Eagle makes M1 friendly ammo but it is not WWII ammo at all.
You’re awfully defensive here bringing it back to feelings. My thesis is the neckbearding has created another layer of middlemen attempting to force hyperinflation on their wares in order to take advantage of people. It’s invidious and crass.
All WWI and WWII 30-06 is corrosive, possibly excepting a tiny number of rounds.
I don't know what invidious means, but its crass and a d!ck move. Its not capitalism to buy up the limited supply of a scarce commodity to resell at a profit. They are not creating a scarce commodity from raw materials or introducing the commodity from previously purchased stocks. They are artificially reducing supply to raise prices. The scalpers certainly are not providing a service.
People who bought ammo when it was in stock and cheap and decide to sell it are not d!cks, they are capitalists and are supplying a scarce commodity from previously purchased stock. Good on them if they are making a profit.
I will not buy ammo from a scalper, hell I won't buy any ammo at ridiculous prices. I need more practice with my bow anyway.
I don't understand why anyone would defend ammunition scalpers.
Andy
PracticalRifleman
03-16-21, 21:46
Don’t be obtuse. There is scarcity without scalpers. And prices aren’t just up on secondary markets. The dude above wasn’t just pissed at scalpers, he is pissed at any inflated prices.
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It appears that there is a sort of perfect storm going on with ammo prices.
1. Covid shut down production temporarily in ammo plants.
2. Rising commodity prices.
3. Remington went bankrupt and quit making ammo.
4. Panic from Covid, George Floyd fallout, election, made people want ammo.
5. #4 creates an aftermarket for speculators.
6. Millions of new gun purchasers and they all need ammo.
Most shooters are frustrated, but the real blame is on oneself, if that self didn't see this coming and stock up.
It appears that there is a sort of perfect storm going on with ammo prices.
1. Covid shut down production temporarily in ammo plants.
2. Rising commodity prices.
3. Remington went bankrupt and quit making ammo.
4. Panic from Covid, George Floyd fallout, election, made people want ammo.
5. #4 creates an aftermarket for speculators.
6. Millions of new gun purchasers and they all need ammo.
Most shooters are frustrated, but the real blame is on oneself, if that self didn't see this coming and stock up.
And that's why when I start running really low at the end of the year, I'm going overlanding and work on some bushcrafting. I'm going to really try and not complain about the situation. It'll just be time to do other cool things for a while.
3. Remington went bankrupt and quit making ammo.
Lets not forget that Remington was also one of 4 manufacturers of primers in the US. And that we’re pretty much effed on obtaining most foreign primers right now.
Lets not forget that Remington was also one of 4 manufacturers of primers in the US. And that we’re pretty much effed on obtaining most foreign primers right now.
An oft overlooked fact. I was hoping PSA (of all people) would have jumped in on that by now.
But let’s not forget that the assholes who inventory snipe and camp out at all the sporting goods stores are the REAL heroes here....
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/59309302.jpg
Lets not forget that Remington was also one of 4 manufacturers of primers in the US. And that we’re pretty much effed on obtaining most foreign primers right now.
That plant in Lonoke AR is back up and running.
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/feb/05/ammo-plant-in-full-gear-exec-says/
That plant in Lonoke AR is back up and running.
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/feb/05/ammo-plant-in-full-gear-exec-says/
Thats great news. Thanks.
Edit: I read the article, and it really doesn’t say what the headline implies. It does lead me to believe that production will increase, though.
That plant in Lonoke AR is back up and running.
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2021/feb/05/ammo-plant-in-full-gear-exec-says/
I would have hoped they were able to re hire a lot of the folks that had previously worked there. Anyone know how long the plant was offline?
PracticalRifleman
03-17-21, 08:41
Lets not forget that Remington was also one of 4 manufacturers of primers in the US. And that we’re pretty much effed on obtaining most foreign primers right now.
My good friend is an engineer there. He said with COVID and Remington being out of money, they were operating at about 10% capacity. Federal sent them cash on the day the acquisition was approved so they could buy raw materials. As of a couple weeks ago he said they were up to 80% of production capacity. 80% is about as high as they can get due to COVID restrictions.
ETA: he said 9mm was what they planned to focus on first. I did see Lucky Gunner has Remington 9mm in stock as of two days ago.
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PracticalRifleman
03-17-21, 08:44
An oft overlooked fact. I was hoping PSA (of all people) would have jumped in on that by now.
But let’s not forget that the assholes who inventory snipe and camp out at all the sporting goods stores are the REAL heroes here....
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/59309302.jpg
Remington was bought by Vista, which is the parent company of Federal.
I don’t think anybody is calling those assholes a hero.
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Business_Casual
03-17-21, 08:45
Here’s what’s wrong with belief in price gouging.
After Steve Jobs left Apple, it collapsed, and so did the stock price. Then he came back and the products got much better and investors bought shares. Now the stock is at $123 a share and the company has a $2T market cap.
Now, asking $123 a share hurts your feelings because you think it should be sold to you at $10 a share because of “muh neckbeards.”
Markets price things, that’s how it works. Generators cost more during hurricanes. Gas costs more in the Summer. Water costs more in bottles than tap water. Ammo costs more when Communists rig elections. Simple.
ChattanoogaPhil
03-17-21, 08:52
Absent government price fixing, the laws of supply and demand apply. I'm fine with the laws of supply and demand in a relatively free market regardless if it's impacted with Walmart flippers or any number of middlemen between manufacture and consumer. What I'm not fine with is government meddling which is typically the culprit with ammo/firearms market disruptions.
This is a $43,000 example of government meddling with supply.
https://i.imgur.com/G495Srg.png
Absent government price fixing, the laws of supply and demand apply. I'm fine with the laws of supply and demand in a relatively free market regardless if it's impacted with Walmart flippers or any number of middlemen between manufacture and consumer. What I'm not fine with is government meddling which is typically the culprit with ammo/firearms market disruptions.
This is a $43,000 example of government meddling with supply.
https://i.imgur.com/G495Srg.png
Move to Somalia, that shit's like two camels and a teen bride there.....
lovetashoot
03-17-21, 11:28
I just saw Winchester 22lr 525 round brick for $184 at LGS. I died a bit inside. No more business ever with them. I don’t understand unnecessarily screwing people. I know it’s technically not gouging-I can get them elsewhere. But I don’t forget these people. I remember the 2008 magazine panic and all the crap places tripling prices. I waited on Brownells and Bravo to restock, they never went up-you just had to wait. I’m hoping this will settle down by the end of the year.
I understand 2017 prices were an anomaly. It's doubtful we'll return to $0.16/round for 9mm. That said, $0.75+ for 9mm 115 gr FMJ is insane. Just last week a buddy sent me a link to a fly by night company selling reman 9mm for $0.67/round. If you need it that badly, I can understand. I'll keep you in my thoughts.
My shooting has essentially ground to a halt. If this lasts the projected 2 years, I'll still shoot a couple times per year to prevent total atrophy of my skills. But I'll be slinging more arrows in the meantime. I'm not exactly knee deep in ammo, but I've got a fair amount I can ration until things stabilize. And I'm glad I bought several boxes of the important stuff when it was cheap.
I hate scalpers. Price gougers. Whatever you want to call them or whether you think the term exists, you know damn well 115 gr 9mm and 55 gr .223 isn't a $1 commodity. Nor is a box of 1000 primers worth $300. I understand supply and demand, but as stated above the scalpers aren't providing a service; they're utilizing an existing service and inserting themselves as unnecessary middlemen in an attempt to make money off of desperate folks. Should it be illegal? No, because at the end of the day it's their property and they can sell it for $1M for all I care. I won't be buying it.
I'm not mad at places charging $0.30 per round of 9mm to keep the lights on. But places like CTD that gouge by 300% or more overnight during EVERY shortage deserve an electrical fire so their insurance company can reimburse them for the true value of their insanely marked up ammo.
Oh, and while it doesn't last forever, ammo lasts a long time. Long enough to wait out these things. If the hawaiian BBQ or zombie apocalypse occurs, the water will run out long before the ammo.
Absent government price fixing, the laws of supply and demand apply. I'm fine with the laws of supply and demand in a relatively free market regardless if it's impacted with Walmart flippers or any number of middlemen between manufacture and consumer. What I'm not fine with is government meddling which is typically the culprit with ammo/firearms market disruptions.
This is a $43,000 example of government meddling with supply.
https://i.imgur.com/G495Srg.png
Chatanooga's right, but I'd add "also absent a price-fixing conspiracy among sellers." This activity is prohibited by anti-trust laws (which, by the way, have been neglected lately). It is possible that ammo manufacturers are combining to jack prices up, but there is no evidence of it.
We are subjected to market forces and don't like it.
Things will get better.
It is possible that ammo manufacturers are combining to jack prices up, but there is no evidence of it.
.
I don’t think thats the case. I’m seeing brass cased 5.56 for 60¢, steel cased .223 for 50¢, 9mm for 40¢ and .22lr for 8¢, at local stores. Still high, but not as high as some of you are seeing.
What I’ve noticed is the price for the same box of ammo roughly doubles at places with wider popularity that let more people in the door and sell online, too. To me (I’m not an economist) this seems to indicate that the buyer is setting the price at the retail markets, not the manufacturer.
Obviously, shitheads abound, and I’m not denying that.
gunnerblue
03-17-21, 13:22
At a nearby Academy (outdoors store) they were selling 20-rd Winchester-boxed M885 (aka Green Tip) for $12.99 so about 65 cents per round.
I have to say I will take neckbeard scalpers over any solution the government would take to stop them.
Andy
PracticalRifleman
03-17-21, 14:09
Academy here is 65 cents for 5.56 62 gr Green Tip and $1 for M80. 9mm has been 50 cents.
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Business_Casual
03-17-21, 20:29
Chatanooga's right, but I'd add "also absent a price-fixing conspiracy among sellers."
Things will get better.
If the market is allowed to operate without interference from the government, yes.
Averageman
03-18-21, 04:12
I never thought I would be in the market for dies for .45acp and 9mm, but here it goes.
I'm starting to see supplies open up. Local mega gun store has pallet quantities of 9 mm and 5.56, though it's still crazy expensive.
https://i.postimg.cc/d3qCFv7m/20210316-133221-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/dVMqZ6Bg/20210316-133305-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/bw3pVP8f/20210316-133721.jpg
Literally pallets of $1/round 5.56.
$.80/rnd 9mm in pallets as well
I'd buy a couple of boxes at$20/box, @1168
That's not unreasonable
I never thought I would be in the market for dies for .45acp and 9mm, but here it goes.
My .45 ACP dies are stamped "'79". My 9mm came along a bit later.
I'd buy a couple of boxes at$20/box, @1168
That's not unreasonable
Yeah, that joint gets limited traffic, and they have the one box rule. And when they have primers, its 100/week, normal price. Not quite enough to get anywhere, but it keeps me treading water. Last week they had a few bricks of .22lr, but I missed it, and had to settle for another 50 box for $4. The G44 I bought there has been getting a ton of use.
Hypothetically, if I went there everyday, between all calibers, I could shoot around 1,000 a week, but at roughly double normal pricing. With my current schedule, I buy about 100-200 a week there.
PracticalRifleman
03-18-21, 11:57
I never thought I would be in the market for dies for .45acp and 9mm, but here it goes.
I may have some extras. I’ll check when I get home next week.
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I may have some extras. I’ll check when I get home next week.
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I checked online today at a few places and those dies are gone...
Damn thing at Midway said 'no backorder available' on a BUNCH or those items??? Insane when stuff like that is just 'gone'.
I checked online today at a few places and those dies are gone...
Damn thing at Midway said 'no backorder available' on a BUNCH or those items??? Insane when stuff like that is just 'gone'.
Noticed a few places like that and a few others that primarily promote back ordering versus getting an in stock notice as not as noticeable option.
Used the Midway in stock notice a few times. I don't think most reloading tools will be quite the split second issue ammo and components are.
Boy I wish I was a no life bastard who could hang out at Academy each morning to be a neckbeard.
You're just not trying hard enough. C'mon man, grow that beard, quit that job, get in line.
I have seen a few indicators.
Sample of one, but Grabagun was selling the Smith AR for $899 last summer. It went up to $949 and then briefly to $999. Now it's back down to $899.
The Sig Romeo 5 popular red dot went from $129 pre panic to $159 or more from several retailers. All those new ARs needed red dots. Now Romeo is back down.
If other items are doing this, it may be a glimmer that peak panic is occurring.
Academy 9mm prices averaging around 33 cents per round and as low as 20 cents per round
https://www.academy.com/shop/browse/outdoors/shooting/ammunition/bulk-ammunition?facet=ads_f10506_ntk_cs%3A%229mm+Luger%22
and
Midway 9mm prices averaging over 70 cents per round (for crap training ammo)
https://www.midwayusa.com/ammunition/br?cid=653&targetLocation=%2F_%2FN-0%2B653%3FNp%3D2%26Nr%3DAND%2528p_visible%253A1%252Ccustomertypeid%253A1%2529%26Nrpp%3D48%26Ntpc%3D1%26Ntpr%3D1%26Ntt%3D9mm
How come Academy can keep their prices close to normal? Hmmmm....
Because Academy is okay with middleman buying their supply and flipping it for profit. Because Academy is more likely to sell other items and profit off them when the ammo gets you in the door to the store, I'll wager, than Midway is. Because in normal times Academy is almost always overpriced on ammo and it's only occasionally and short term that it gets flipped, it's a blip on their radar
Yeah they are being genuine assholes. I hope they break hips.
Yes, let's all wish serious bodily harm on other conservative shooters who buy ammo that we want.
That'll teach those liberals a lesson.
No but really, you are the poster child of "with friends like this, who needs enemies?" or "divide and conquer". You already lost for us. Thanks.
Who cares who is profiting during panic buying? If anyone didn’t stock up during the salad days, it’s their own fault now for being low on ammunition. We aren’t socialists and the market dictates pricing. I can’t believe how many people are bitching and wishing ill will on people who are profiting from this madness.
I could not care less if someone stacked it deep even 1 year ago and is selling ammo at a profit, that is completely different. They did not stop other people from buying the same ammo they did.
Andy
Nothing is stopping anyone from buying ammo right now. It’s just a hassle and more expensive. The situation sucks. But it’s a known phenomenon. So prepare accordingly. I say this having gotten caught with insufficient stocks of 9mm myself. It sucks. It won’t last forever. I personally won’t get caught like this again.
Yesterday I went through about 100 rounds of .22, 50 rounds of 45ACP, 100 rounds of 9mm, and 56 rounds of 5.56. I'm not doing it often but can do that for a long time to come because I got caught before, never again.
Was at Bass Pro today looking for a Nitro piston pellet rifle. Almost got a Benjamin Vaporizer 22cal.
Wound up getting 500 rnds of 9mm for $150. It was 115gr range fodder, but at least it wasn’t a buck a round.
Was at Bass Pro today looking for a Nitro piston pellet rifle. Almost got a Benjamin Vaporizer 22cal.
Wound up getting 500 rnds of 9mm for $150. It was 115gr range fodder, but at least it wasn’t a buck a round.
$15 per 50 is not a bad price for new production 9mm.
I had an adequate supply of 9mm ball until I got my AR-9 to run.
Andy
PracticalRifleman
03-21-21, 20:34
Yes, let's all wish serious bodily harm on other conservative shooters who buy ammo that we want.
That'll teach those liberals a lesson.
No but really, you are the poster child of "with friends like this, who needs enemies?" or "divide and conquer". You already lost for us. Thanks.
Who says they are “conservative shooters”?
Shooters don’t hang out to buy up ammo to resell. Those are speculators.
Not only are many of these assholes being assholes, but some are breaking law. Which I care less about than them being assholes.
Were if an “us” vs “them” situation as you describe, they are no friends of ours. So again, **** those assholes.
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Price Gouging is an all the way Dick Move. Make your money from desperate people now, because you won’t get any money from me later.
It’s not “capitalism”. It’s more of the “Fat kid with the football” mentality that pervades the ‘gun community’.
I always believed that guns are like comic books and are meant to be enjoyed, traded, and shared.
But the Fat Kids with the Football will sell you a $400 (on a good day) Anderson for $1500. It’s just not worth that much. When people give me the hackeneyed “It’s just Capitalism” spiel I then immediately ask them:
Okay how much for a night with your wife and college age daughter?
And then I get: “What the hell kinda question is that?!”
To which I reply: Aw iTs JuSt CapItaLisM. Everything has a price. So seriously, how much?
Your posts make sense now. You just don't have a clue what you are talking about lol
The fact that you don’t understand markets and economics doesn’t mean I can’t refute your point. It means you refuse to accept it. Have a nice day, sir.
Right?
I see this went several pages after these posts. I"ll guess it's more trying to teach firefly core concepts while he screeches refusal. I think I'll just skip that lol
So you were “that kid” in middle school. Got it
So you were “that kid” in middle school. Got it
One side thinks old retired dudes buying up ammunition when it hits the shelves to resell at a profit are:
* Capitalist geniuses
* Demonstrating supply and demand
* Folk heroes
One side think they are a poor excuse for human beings.
Oh well
Andy
One side thinks old retired dudes buying up ammunition when it hits the shelves to resell at a profit are:
* Capitalist geniuses
* Demonstrating supply and demand
* Folk heroes
One side think they are a poor excuse for human beings.
Oh well
Andy
I wish to go on formal record as saying that if you are camping out to buy fresh shelved ammo to shoot or to stockpile for the Big Crunch; then absolutely I cannot criticize nor berate.
If one is a no-life having neckbeard trying to become a self made middle-man with artificially constructed inflation then those people are why this nation has truly become an utter whorehouse of usury and exploitation.
I am on the side that thinks they are a poor excuse for a human being and frankly do not care what their defenders have to say.
I think we will see ammo shortages relax soon anyway barring any regulatory interference.
Andy
I am on the side that thinks they are a poor excuse for a human being and frankly do not care what their defenders have to say.
I think we will see ammo shortages relax soon anyway barring any regulatory interference.
Andy
I agree with this. There are only so many people willing to pay a dollar a round for 9mm target ammo. There are only so many people willing to pay $1000 for a $500 Smith AR. I'm thinking by Christmas -- again barring any legislation -- things will start loosening up.
I am on the side that thinks they are a poor excuse for a human being and frankly do not care what their defenders have to say.
I think we will see ammo shortages relax soon anyway barring any regulatory interference.
Andy
I agree with this. There are only so many people willing to pay a dollar a round for 9mm target ammo. There are only so many people willing to pay $1000 for a $500 Smith AR. I'm thinking by Christmas -- again barring any legislation -- things will start loosening up.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2021/4/12/big-green-is-back-remington-ammo-plant-working-247
Big Green going 24/7...
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2021/4/12/big-green-is-back-remington-ammo-plant-working-247
Big Green going 24/7...
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