View Full Version : Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?
Let's say that the latest, greatest high tech ammunition offerings cease to be available to civilians and maybe even to LEO's except in very small quantities.
But, various hardball ammo is available although even that is scarce and expensive. Given the current situation, that's not exactly a far fetched scenario.
Does caliber matter at that point?
I think, personally, I'd probably load up some 200 grain, lead, .45 Semi Wadcutters- the old HG 68 bullet....in that situation. The Semi Wadcutter is a decades long proven killer of mammals of all shapes and sizes.
Defaultmp3
03-22-21, 10:41
There's still the issue of recoil and capacity.
I was forced to carry ball ammo at one point in my career, I was one of the few guys that carried a 1911.
It almost got me killed in one incident, it didn't put the guy down and I ran out of bb's before I thought to move to his head. It took one of the other lads shoving his commando over my shoulder and shooting the terrorist in the head to save my life.
I later was told I had to start using a Hi Power also with ball. I had the same kind of attack and I shot the terrorist in the heart and then transitioned to a shot to the head. Problem solved.
I became a 9mm fan that day.
I will tell the truth that most people don't want to hear. You bullet construction will have less than 1% impact on the outcome of your gun fight. Tactics and shot placement, are what counts.
The problem with handgun gun fights is that handguns suck at stopping people. Then we add the unknown of how many rounds will it take to stop that bad guy on that day. I really believe that on Monday the same bad guy make take only 1 round to stop but on Tuesday due to factors outside of anyone's control that same guy might take 20 rounds to stop him
I was forced to carry ball ammo at one point in my career, I was one of the few guys that carried a 1911.
It almost got me killed in one incident, it didn't put the guy down and I ran out of bb's before I thought to move to his head. It took one of the other lads shoving his commando over my shoulder and shooting the terrorist in the head to save my life.
I later was told I had to start using a Hi Power also with ball. I had the same kind of attack and I shot the terrorist in the heart and then transitioned to a shot to the head. Problem solved.I'm missing something.
What would the difference have been had you hit the terr in the heart and head with a .45?
I'm missing something.
What would the difference have been had you hit the terr in the heart and head with a .45?
He means the difference s the capacity is the difference. 9mm ball and 45 ball perform almost identically. With ball perfect shot placement is key due to the small wounds produced by ball. He means he shot the terrorist in the chest with all (assuming 8) shots and ran out. The shots were ineffective so he needed a head shot, but because of the limited capacity he didn't have any more bullets for a head shot
Id still stick with 9mm. I agree with Yoni that tactics and shot placement are going to be the big factors in winning the fight. Ive seen a lot of dudes killed with cheap FMJ ammo. Many even dropped DRT.
Dont get me wrong, Im not advocating FMJ over a good JHP. From what Ive seen on the street I do believe that hollow points are more effective than FMJ, but I dont think they are a large amount more effective. But since handguns suck anyways Ill take any advantage I can get. I think a 45 FMH will be more effective than a 9mm FMJ but I think the benefits of more ammo and less recoil outweigh those advantages.
Correct, I ran out of ammo with only the limited capacity of the 1911.
When you have a guy on you with a axe trying to bury it in your head, you would be amazed at how fast your trigger finger can work.
The question only you can answer is would you have emptied a 9 without going for the head as well. Critical thinking kinda goes ass up in those situations. My guess is the result would have been exactly the same but ...
One for sure takeaway. Teamwork rules!
People laugh at the 'Vibe for carrying M882 / Q4318 ball on the streets of the big city.
Yoni knows (as do urban MEs) that it's where the bullet hits and does it penetrate.
Q4318 is essentially +P 124 grain FMJ.
Q4318 is cheap and reliable. Pre panic, it was $200 / case.
Some urban thugs are huge. They look like NFL linemen. They're as big as black bears. I want to be sure of penetration.
I was forced to carry ball ammo at one point in my career, I was one of the few guys that carried a 1911.
It almost got me killed in one incident, it didn't put the guy down and I ran out of bb's before I thought to move to his head. It took one of the other lads shoving his commando over my shoulder and shooting the terrorist in the head to save my life.
How's your hearing on that side today?
I later was told I had to start using a Hi Power also with ball. I had the same kind of attack and I shot the terrorist in the heart and then transitioned to a shot to the head. Problem solved.
I became a 9mm fan that day.
I will tell the truth that most people don't want to hear. You bullet construction will have less than 1% impact on the outcome of your gun fight. Tactics and shot placement, are what counts.
The problem with handgun gun fights is that handguns suck at stopping people. Then we add the unknown of how many rounds will it take to stop that bad guy on that day. I really believe that on Monday the same bad guy make take only 1 round to stop but on Tuesday due to factors outside of anyone's control that same guy might take 20 rounds to stop him
Or until somoene with a long gun shows up to put the goblin down? Seems no lack of examples of that one.
Let's say that the latest, greatest high tech ammunition offerings cease to be available to civilians and maybe even to LEO's except in very small quantities.
But, various hardball ammo is available although even that is scarce and expensive. Given the current situation, that's not exactly a far fetched scenario.
Does caliber matter at that point?
I think, personally, I'd probably load up some 200 grain, lead, .45 Semi Wadcutters- the old HG 68 bullet....in that situation. The Semi Wadcutter is a decades long proven killer of mammals of all shapes and sizes.
The old thought was if you were not going to have JHP, make the biggest hole possible, so .45 was the choice. A more modern POV is that all handgun calibers in typical duty loads are poor man stoppers, so the reduced recoil and greater capacity favors the 9mm. That's my non expert understanding.
If that ever happened, and I hope it doesn’t, I wonder if soft point or lead loads for revolvers would still be a thing. I have been impressed with heavy .44 special lead semi wad cutters on hogs.
The old thought was if you were not going to have JHP, make the biggest hole possible, so .45 was the choice. I more modern POV is that all handgun calibers in typical duty loads are poor man stoppers, so the reduced recoil and greater capacity favors the 9mm. That's my non expert understanding.
Yeah that sums it up well. It's also understood that 9mm FMJ and 45acp fmj really perform identically in tissue. My vote is for 9 for less recoil for faster follow up shots and better capacity so you get more chances to hit something vital
People laugh at the 'Vibe for carrying M882 / Q4318 ball on the streets of the big city.
Yoni knows (as do urban MEs) that it's where the bullet hits and does it penetrate.
Q4318 is essentially +P 124 grain FMJ.
Q4318 is cheap and reliable. Pre panic, it was $200 / case.
Some urban thugs are huge. They look like NFL linemen. They're as big as black bears. I want to be sure of penetration.
very well said. When it comes to what bullet does what... i always return to the old adage "it's the poor mechanic who blames his tools".
Yeah that sums it up well. It's also understood that 9mm FMJ and 45acp fmj really perform identically in tissue. My vote is for 9 for less recoil for faster follow up shots and better capacity so you get more chances to hit something vital
I recall .45 has an edge in terminal ballistics, but close enough that it would not justify using it per se when balanced off with low recoil and capacity of 9mm in FMJ or JHP. I tend to wonder if the semi wadcutter is not an under represented/under appreciated design that splits the difference and would like to see some terminal performance data. I'm sure it exists some place.
I recall .45 has an edge in terminal ballistics, but close enough that it would not justify using it per se when balanced off with low recoil and capacity of 9mm in FMJ or JHP. I tend to wonder if the semi wadcutter is not an under represented/under appreciated design that splits the difference and would like to see some terminal performance data. I'm sure it exists some place.
I know SWC data is out there, I've seen it in the past. I wish I knew where to find it. As I recall you are correct. SWC terminal performance exceeded ball/LRN by reatively minor but statistically significant amounts. Again by memory, but I believe SWC was roughly equal to lower performance JHP. With a big jump in terminal effect where JHP expanded well.
Like I said though, it's been a while. I also cannot say whether the information I saw is amongst any of the now discounted works.
gunnerblue
03-29-21, 11:13
I recall .45 has an edge in terminal ballistics, but close enough that it would not justify using it per se when balanced off with low recoil and capacity of 9mm in FMJ or JHP. I tend to wonder if the semi wadcutter is not an under represented/under appreciated design that splits the difference and would like to see some terminal performance data. I'm sure it exists some place.
A lot of info on SWC and other hard cast design is out there from the hunting community. Buffalo Bore and Garrett Cartridges each have a few technical articles on their respective sites. There is also always the writings of Elmer Keith and such.
It doesn't matter period. Like I said in a previous thread, you can take virtually any autopsy report and conclude that any flavor of any common duty cartridge would be equally successful. And the inverse of that is true, as well. You can take any after action report that was unsuccessful, and any flavor of any duty cartridge would have been equally unsuccessful.
To incapacitate someone, you have to strike the A zone, and likely multiple times. No common caliber or bullet technology is going to change that. If the bullet doesn't directly strike something major, the chances of success are next to zero.
Where bullets fail is when they don't penetrate far enough, or they fragment or are otherwise driven off course. All the common duty calibers in all the institutionally accepted flavors have been shown to be adequate in that regard.
So in this post apocalyptic ammo grab bag scenario, any FMJ will be fine. If we're talking about .38 or under, FMJ or lead ball would be preferred. 9mm or above and just about any HP is going to be fine. Where you would run into problems is if some jackass had a bunch of frangible or those retarded safety slugs or something. If given the choice between FMJ and an unknown HP, I would opt for the FMJ, because many if not most HPs these days have inadequate penetration, even in more powerful calibers. Since most people think 12" is acceptable, that's allowed the ammo makers to get away with extremely aggressive hollow points, and they often don't penetrate more than about 12-14 inches.
vicious_cb
03-29-21, 14:24
I recall .45 has an edge in terminal ballistics, but close enough that it would not justify using it per se when balanced off with low recoil and capacity of 9mm in FMJ or JHP. I tend to wonder if the semi wadcutter is not an under represented/under appreciated design that splits the difference and would like to see some terminal performance data. I'm sure it exists some place.
If you are missing a major blood vessel by a tenth of an inch that would have otherwise stopped the fight then that day just isnt your day.
On another forum Im on there is a poster named Max Prasic or something like that. He is a well known big game handgun hunter. He says in the hunting community there is a lot of information showing that SWC bullets, or other designs with a sharp leading edge, cause significantly more damage that round profile bullets.
On the other hand, Doc Roberts has said that you start to see significant wounding outside of the bullet path with heavy hot loaded 44 mag. These hunters are usually using bullets significantly more powerful than 44 magnum. Ive heard a theory that the sharp edge not only cuts more tissue it causes more tissue disruption away from the bullet path and therefore might cause more cavitation wounding as well.
gunnerblue
03-29-21, 19:25
The full diameter top band of the SWC was always touted as being the cause of the wound diameter when hunting with hard cast bullets. In actuality, it is the meplat diameter which is the primary cause of the destruction. This is why the LBT-style of bullets prevail in big game handgun hunting
Wadcutters are made for punching clean, sharp holes in paper. Muscle tissue is similar to paper in that its lots of compressed bundles of fibers. While on paper, or in muscle, round nose bullets can slip between fibers and do relatively little damage, where a wide flat nose or swc cannot slip through. Because they cannot slip through, they have more drag and cut more tissue, producing visibly larger wounds
On another forum Im on there is a poster named Max Prasic or something like that. He is a well known big game handgun hunter. He says in the hunting community there is a lot of information showing that SWC bullets, or other designs with a sharp leading edge, cause significantly more damage that round profile bullets.
On the other hand, Doc Roberts has said that you start to see significant wounding outside of the bullet path with heavy hot loaded 44 mag. These hunters are usually using bullets significantly more powerful than 44 magnum. Ive heard a theory that the sharp edge not only cuts more tissue it causes more tissue disruption away from the bullet path and therefore might cause more cavitation wounding as well.
That wouldn't surprise me one bit. I think the differences would be relatively small, but at least in theory it should hold true. The important thing to keep in mind is that the energy levels are way more than the generalized threshold for cavitation. .44 mag is even on the weaker side of things when you're talking big game handgun hunters. Those are also massive bullets with lots of inertia, so they don't lose their energy easily. And we're talking energy levels on par with anything from 223 to 300 win mag, at close range, with bullets weighing around 300 grains, so it's going to turn just about anything into hamburger, regardless of what bullet you use.
Wadcutters are made for punching clean, sharp holes in paper. Muscle tissue is similar to paper in that its lots of compressed bundles of fibers. While on paper, or in muscle, round nose bullets can slip between fibers and do relatively little damage, where a wide flat nose or swc cannot slip through. Because they cannot slip through, they have more drag and cut more tissue, producing visibly larger wounds
The difference though is that the fibers of muscle tissue are just about the most elastic substance on earth, suspended in water. Not saying there's zero difference, but nothing is going to cut through living muscle like it does through paper.
Another thing to keep in mind is that bullets almost always tumble after punching through the chest wall and getting into the intersecting tissue planes inside the thoracic cavity, so anything besides a round musket ball is likely to look similar in real life.
gunnerblue
03-29-21, 20:14
That wouldn't surprise me one bit. I think the differences would be relatively small, but at least in theory it should hold true. The important thing to keep in mind is that the energy levels are way more than the generalized threshold for cavitation. .44 mag is even on the weaker side of things when you're talking big game handgun hunters. Those are also massive bullets with lots of inertia, so they don't lose their energy easily. And we're talking energy levels on par with anything from 223 to 300 win mag, at close range, with bullets weighing around 300 grains, so it's going to turn just about anything into hamburger, regardless of what bullet you use.
The difference though is that the fibers of muscle tissue are just about the most elastic substance on earth, suspended in water. Not saying there's zero difference, but nothing is going to cut through living muscle like it does through paper.
Another thing to keep in mind is that bullets almost always tumble after punching through the chest wall and getting into the intersecting tissue planes inside the thoracic cavity, so anything besides a round musket ball is likely to look similar in real life.
Energy levels are generally useless and especially when discussing big bore solid bullets. Think of these types of projectiles as long range punch presses-their purpose is drive deep straight holes.
A .44 mag with a hard cast 300-320 gr bullet is not weak and has taken just about everything on earth.
Hard cast rounds do not "hamburger" anything- again, because energy is largely irrelevant. It is common knowledge among those who hunt with and take game with such rounds that one can "eat right up to the hole." Meaning, no bloodshot meat
Energy levels are generally useless and especially when discussing big bore solid bullets. Think of these types of projectiles as long range punch presses-their purpose is drive deep straight holes.
A .44 mag with a hard cast 300-320 gr bullet is not weak and has taken just about everything on earth.
Hard cast rounds do not "hamburger" anything- again, because energy is largely irrelevant. It is common knowledge among those who hunt with and take game with such rounds that one can "eat right up to the hole." Meaning, no bloodshot meat
Energy is FAR from irrelevant. What you're saying is tantamount to arguing that a boulder won't make a bigger splash than a pebble if thrown into a lake. .44 mag will absolutely make a giant stretch cavity that's more than big enough to tear the flesh and create an appreciable permanent cavity. Might seem small by comparison if you shoot a water buffalo with it, but it will absolutely be there.
Energy is FAR from irrelevant. What you're saying is tantamount to arguing that a boulder won't make a bigger splash than a pebble if thrown into a lake. .44 mag will absolutely make a giant stretch cavity that's more than big enough to tear the flesh and create an appreciable permanent cavity. Might seem small by comparison if you shoot a water buffalo with it, but it will absolutely be there.
When dealing with handgun calibers energy is irrelevant. I've killed deer with 150gr wfn boolits from a 9mm, and I've killed deer with the same bullet but gong 400fps faster from a 357 maximum, and the damage was almost identical. There was no noticeable difference in how far they ran, and the wounds looked near identical, except the 357 maximum produced slightly (and I mean slightly) more bloodshot lung tissue. You almost couldn't tell a difference. Most handgun calibers are similar enough that the slight energy differences are moot
As far as quickly stopping an attacker? No, although a flat-nose, narrower, higher sectional density and faster bullet is less prone to ricochet and deviation.
As far as killing? The same issues apply.
If you are concerned about over-penetration FMJ in service calibers aren't a good choice unless a slower load from a very short barrel like .45 gap, .45 acp, .38 spl and .44 spl. I've chronographed a .45 Shield firing factory 230 gr FMJ at around 700 fps IIRC. That's only going to penetrate 16-20 inches in calibrated gelatin.
For SD I carry FMJ in .25 acp, .32 acp, or semi-wadcutter in .32 Magnum. (Actually it's a SJHP I know won't expand from the snub) For civie carry I'm fine with it. I pick guns and don't worry about caliber so much.
As far as quickly stopping an attacker? No, although a flat-nose, narrower, higher sectional density and faster bullet is less prone to ricochet and deviation.
As far as killing? The same issues apply.
If you are concerned about over-penetration FMJ in service calibers aren't a good choice unless a slower load from a very short barrel like .45 gap, .45 acp, .38 spl and .44 spl. I've chronographed a .45 Shield firing factory 230 gr FMJ at around 700 fps IIRC. That's only going to penetrate 16-20 inches in calibrated gelatin.
For SD I carry FMJ in .25 acp, .32 acp, or semi-wadcutter in .32 Magnum. (Actually it's a SJHP I know won't expand from the snub) For civie carry I'm fine with it. I pick guns and don't worry about caliber so much.
I agree. thats why the few times I carry a 32 acp I carry buffalo bore wfn loads. The 22 25 23 and even 380 are all known to occasionally deflect off bone such as the sternum or skull. That flat nose is less likely to deflect and more likely to penetrate sufficiently. And maybe it ever so slightly increases wounding
When dealing with handgun calibers energy is irrelevant. I've killed deer with 150gr wfn boolits from a 9mm, and I've killed deer with the same bullet but gong 400fps faster from a 357 maximum, and the damage was almost identical. There was no noticeable difference in how far they ran, and the wounds looked near identical, except the 357 maximum produced slightly (and I mean slightly) more bloodshot lung tissue. You almost couldn't tell a difference. Most handgun calibers are similar enough that the slight energy differences are moot
How did we go from talking about big game handgun hunting to this?
Not all 357 is created equal. While some loads can be 800 ft lbs, most are well under that. Still a far cry from 44 mag.
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How did we go from talking about big game handgun hunting to this?
Not all 357 is created equal. While some loads can be 800 ft lbs, most are well under that. Still a far cry from 44 mag.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I said 357 MAXIMUM. Out of a 10.5" barrel it has over 1300 ft/lbs of energy, so it is beyond any factory 44mag ammo and on par or better than hot 44mag handholds. Its a pistol caliber but its well into intermediate rifle ballistics
gunnerblue
03-30-21, 08:43
Energy is FAR from irrelevant. What you're saying is tantamount to arguing that a boulder won't make a bigger splash than a pebble if thrown into a lake. .44 mag will absolutely make a giant stretch cavity that's more than big enough to tear the flesh and create an appreciable permanent cavity. Might seem small by comparison if you shoot a water buffalo with it, but it will absolutely be there.
I said that it was LARGELY irrelevant because it is.
My counterpoint to your .44 magnum comment was that it is not considered weak by any means by handgun hunters. Perhaps I misunderstood you point.
I have shot big game animals in the heart/lung area with solid rounds. The bullets did not deflect, tumble or create a visible stretch cavity upon examination.
I said that it was LARGELY irrelevant because it is.
My counterpoint to your .44 magnum comment was that it is not considered weak by any means by handgun hunters. Perhaps I misunderstood you point.
I have shot big game animals in the heart/lung area with solid rounds. The bullets did not deflect, tumble or create a visible stretch cavity upon examination.
I will split the diff in sense here: the doc who is the SME on this topic, had said that up until 44mag, energy largely irrelevant due to stretch cavity not large enough to cause perm wounding effects. 44mag starts to act more like rifle calibers in that it can created a stretch cavity that causes perm wounding effects.
Personally, when ever I'm discussing handgun load terminal ballistics, as it applies to SD/HD, I mean typical duty loads: 9mm, .40, .45, .357. at typical velocities. That of course not accounting for bullet design, which is a another topic in the variable.
Hunting loads are a different animal. Pun intended.
I said 357 MAXIMUM. Out of a 10.5" barrel it has over 1300 ft/lbs of energy, so it is beyond any factory 44mag ammo and on par or better than hot 44mag handholds. Its a pistol caliber but its well into intermediate rifle ballistics
Don't know what to tell you other than I've seen deer innards shot with handguns in the 1k ft lbs range that absolutely showed significant permanent cavitation. Heart and lungs completely destroyed etc.
I will split the diff in sense here: the doc who is the SME on this topic, had said that up until 44mag, energy largely irrelevant due to stretch cavity not large enough to cause perm wounding effects. 44mag starts to act more like rifle calibers in that it can created a stretch cavity that causes perm wounding effects.
Personally, when ever I'm discussing handgun load terminal ballistics, as it applies to SD/HD, I mean typical duty loads: 9mm, .40, .45, .357. at typical velocities. That of course not accounting for bullet design, which is a another topic in the variable.
Hunting loads are a different animal. Pun intended.
Spot on.
Spot on.
I'd add that from a rifle length barrel, .357 seems to take on a whole different wounding profile and reaches low rifle velocities. I wonder why there's not more .357 carbines out there, as that rnd seems benefit more than any other from the 18" or so barrel lengths. 1800-2000fps serious hydraulic forces take place with 125 - 158g bullets.
I'd add that from a rifle length barrel, .357 seems to take on a whole different wounding profile and reaches low rifle velocities. I wonder why there's not more .357 carbines out there, as that rnd seems benefit more than any other from the 18" or so barrel lengths. 1800-2000fps serious hydraulic forces take place with 125 - 158g bullets.
Not sure really, because a 357 revolver with a 6 inch barrel is soft shooting and plenty powerful, and would pair well with a 357 lever gun. That would be a really handy combo for anyone living in the rockies. Plinking, hunting, self defense, bear defense...those two would do it all. And it would be cheap and easy to keep them fed because you would only need one reloading setup and you could even cast your own lead bullets very easily.
I agree. thats why the few times I carry a 32 acp I carry buffalo bore wfn loads. The 22 25 23 and even 380 are all known to occasionally deflect off bone such as the sternum or skull. That flat nose is less likely to deflect and more likely to penetrate sufficiently. And maybe it ever so slightly increases wounding
I carry the .32 WFN Buffalo Bore in the chamber of Beretta 81fs. It's a bit too short to trust feeding from the magazine.
9mm , .40, 45, etc. sometimes bounce off heads or get stopped by baggy clothing, etc. too just less often.
I'd add that from a rifle length barrel, .357 seems to take on a whole different wounding profile and reaches low rifle velocities. I wonder why there's not more .357 carbines out there, as that rnd seems benefit more than any other from the 18" or so barrel lengths. 1800-2000fps serious hydraulic forces take place with 125 - 158g bullets.
Yea, where's our .357 Mag Rimless for semi-auto carbines? 😃
Or a tube-fed semi-auto .357 Mag with 3 position gas port. (.357, .38, off)
Maybe a rotary mag like the old Ruger .44 carbine? With a bulged stock for housing a 10 round removable magazine? (And look a bit like a mini Johnson rifle 🙂 )
Not sure really, because a 357 revolver with a 6 inch barrel is soft shooting and plenty powerful, and would pair well with a 357 lever gun. That would be a really handy combo for anyone living in the rockies. Plinking, hunting, self defense, bear defense...those two would do it all. And it would be cheap and easy to keep them fed because you would only need one reloading setup and you could even cast your own lead bullets very easily.
Plenty of Lever action .357 mag exist, but I don't want a lever action rifle. Ruger seems to make semi auto carbines in damn near every handgun caliber, why not .357 mag?
Yea, where's our .357 Mag Rimless for semi-auto carbines? ��
Or a tube-fed semi-auto .357 Mag with 3 position gas port. (.357, .38, off)
Maybe a rotary mag like the old Ruger .44 carbine? With a bulged stock for housing a 10 round removable magazine? (And look a bit like a mini Johnson rifle �� )
There was another thread I'd said same and there was a lengthy discussion on that one. E The one caliber that seems to benefit the most in handgun rnds from longer barrels, hardest to find as semi a auto carbine. I'd seriously consider a semi auto .357 carbine, where as i have no real interest in handgun caliber carbines in 9mm, etc.
What am I missing there? Feeding issues?
Plenty of Lever action .357 mag exist, but I don't want a lever action rifle. Ruger seems to make semi auto carbines in damn near every handgun caliber, why not .357 mag?
There was another thread I'd said same and there was a lengthy discussion on that one. E The one caliber that seems to benefit the most in handgun rnds from longer barrels, hardest to find as semi a auto carbine. I'd seriously consider a semi auto .357 carbine, where as i have no real interest in handgun caliber carbines in 9mm, etc.
What am I missing there? Feeding issues?
Sure.
But it's not like other rimmed cartridges haven't been made in semi and even full auto guns.
The .357 Coonan of course but also doesn't .303 British have a rim? 7.62x54R is another one. .22 of course. I'm sure there are more.
gunnerblue
03-30-21, 12:13
Plenty of Lever action .357 mag exist, but I don't want a lever action rifle. Ruger seems to make semi auto carbines in damn near every handgun caliber, why not .357 mag?
There was another thread I'd said same and there was a lengthy discussion on that one. E The one caliber that seems to benefit the most in handgun rnds from longer barrels, hardest to find as semi a auto carbine. I'd seriously consider a semi auto .357 carbine, where as i have no real interest in handgun caliber carbines in 9mm, etc.
What am I missing there? Feeding issues?
Rimmed cartridges have been made to feed in semi-autos before (e.g. S&W 52, Desert Eagle) so I imagine it's just lack of demand.
Sure.
But it's not like other rimmed cartridges haven't been made in semi and even full auto guns.
The .357 Coonan of course but also doesn't .303 British have a rim? 7.62x54R is another one. .22 of course. I'm sure there are more.
Rimmed cartridges have been made to feed in semi-autos before (e.g. S&W 52, Desert Eagle) so I imagine it's just lack of demand.
Then people need to pay more dang attention!
gunnerblue
03-30-21, 20:56
Will, you've got me thinking about the .351 Winchester SL and the Hyman Lebman mods done for Prohibition gangsters- namely the addition of a 1928 Thompson foregrip. A local gunsmith makes a replica of such that I've been eying for some time.
Will, you've got me thinking about the .351 Winchester SL and the Hyman Lebman mods done for Prohibition gangsters- namely the addition of a 1928 Thompson foregrip. A local gunsmith makes a replica of such that I've been eying for some time.
Double T
Will, you've got me thinking about the .351 Winchester SL and the Hyman Lebman mods done for Prohibition gangsters- namely the addition of a 1928 Thompson foregrip. A local gunsmith makes a replica of such that I've been eying for some time.
Go for for it! Never heard of it. For myself, I'm really only interested in "standard" calibers that are easy to obtain and reasonably priced.
Go for for it! Never heard of it. For myself, I'm really only interested in "standard" calibers that are easy to obtain and reasonably priced.
Let us know when that happens 😄😬😖
vicious_cb
04-07-21, 01:02
As far as quickly stopping an attacker? No, although a flat-nose, narrower, higher sectional density and faster bullet is less prone to ricochet and deviation.
Ding Ding Ding. Winner winner, chicken dinner.
You would be surprised how many headshot victims end up in ER or are found just stumbling around the crime scene after taking a 9mm, .40, .45 round nose FMJ to the skull that just glanced off, traveled under the skin and exited out of the scalp the other side.
Its almost like the skull was specifically shaped by evolution or something to protect the brain by deflecting glancing impacts. Combine that with a round nose projectile that already is prone to deflecting and you get reports of people getting shot execution style with round nose projectiles surviving with just soft tissue wounds to the scalp.
Bullet shape and construction have more to do with how a bullet will react to meat and bone targets than diameter. I highly suggest reading some Jim Carrillo for some nice anecdotes on people surviving FMJs to the head.
Hahahaha....true story bra!
what would Elmer Keith do ?
https://i.imgur.com/1WRlAs5.jpg
Straight Shooter
04-07-21, 08:28
On another forum Im on there is a poster named Max Prasic or something like that. He is a well known big game handgun hunter. He says in the hunting community there is a lot of information showing that SWC bullets, or other designs with a sharp leading edge, cause significantly more damage that round profile bullets.
On the other hand, Doc Roberts has said that you start to see significant wounding outside of the bullet path with heavy hot loaded 44 mag. These hunters are usually using bullets significantly more powerful than 44 magnum. Ive heard a theory that the sharp edge not only cuts more tissue it causes more tissue disruption away from the bullet path and therefore might cause more cavitation wounding as well.
This has been observed for decades now. I remember reading Ross Seyfried articles in the latter '70's, talking about how the size of a bullets meplat was directly related to killing/stopping power.
I remember thinking the first time I heard the term "meplat" I was wondering "what the hell is a meplat"?! NOBODY KNEW! But I learned awhile later what is is.
Later readings of Keith and a few others all said the same thing. All the big game hunters back then agreed meplat was important in killing/stopping power.
And Ive read more than one article on the effect of wadcutters as SD loads. But, as long as there is HST & GD, I aint going there.
Straight Shooter
04-07-21, 08:33
On another forum Im on there is a poster named Max Prasic or something like that. He is a well known big game handgun hunter. He says in the hunting community there is a lot of information showing that SWC bullets, or other designs with a sharp leading edge, cause significantly more damage that round profile bullets.
On the other hand, Doc Roberts has said that you start to see significant wounding outside of the bullet path with heavy hot loaded 44 mag. These hunters are usually using bullets significantly more powerful than 44 magnum. Ive heard a theory that the sharp edge not only cuts more tissue it causes more tissue disruption away from the bullet path and therefore might cause more cavitation wounding as well.
This has been observed for decades now. I remember reading Ross Seyfried articles in the latter '70's, talking about how the size of a bullets meplat was directly related to killing/stopping power.
I remember thinking the first time I heard the term "meplat" I was wondering "what the hell is a meplat"?! NOBODY KNEW! But I learned awhile later what is is.
Later readings of Keith and a few others all said the same thing. All the big game hunters back then agreed meplat was important in killing/stopping power.
And Ive read more than one article on the effect of wadcutters as SD loads. But, as long as there is HST & GD, I aint going there.
Ding Ding Ding. Winner winner, chicken dinner.
You would be surprised how many headshot victims end up in ER or are found just stumbling around the crime scene after taking a 9mm, .40, .45 round nose FMJ to the skull that just glanced off, traveled under the skin and exited out of the scalp the other side.
Its almost like the skull was specifically shaped by evolution or something to protect the brain by deflecting glancing impacts. Combine that with a round nose projectile that already is prone to deflecting and you get reports of people getting shot execution style with round nose projectiles surviving with just soft tissue wounds to the scalp.
Bullet shape and construction have more to do with how a bullet will react to meat and bone targets than diameter. I highly suggest reading some Jim Carrillo for some nice anecdotes on people surviving FMJs to the head.
I prefer his stories of how many handgun rnds the goblins absorbed and fought on as "real world" examples of the fact all handgun rnds in duty loads are poor man stoppers when someone says one rnd from (fill in caliber here...) will end the fight. Of course bullet tech today is very different from his day, but not enough to change that reality. He had one story where he and his partner emptied their handguns into a guy, large caliber handguns too I recall, and the goblin still fought on. I don't recall how it finally ended, but it was a story he told about the toughest person he ever dealt with. For some reason, I want to say he was using a .45 Colt revolver, but that maybe faulty memory on my end.
I don’t think this happens as frequently as is implied on the internet, although I have seen it, after a (rimfire, IIRC) projectile went through a dudes PVS14. Definitely not common with “execution style” up close shots. At least not in my experience; I haven’t tried to find stats, but I’ve seen a lot of GSWs.
I think in the context of deflecting on intermediate barriers, a round nose is more likely to deflect. In the context of humans getting shot in the face? I dunno. Maybe. Seems like more of an urban legend to me. I do believe flatter noses have a tendency to track straighter, and maybe even produce better wounds.
I have not read J Carrillo.
Ding Ding Ding. Winner winner, chicken dinner.
You would be surprised how many headshot victims end up in ER or are found just stumbling around the crime scene after taking a 9mm, .40, .45 round nose FMJ rd to the skull that just glanced off, traveled under the skin and exited out of the scalp the other side.
Its almost like the skull was specifically shaped by evolution or something to protect the brain by deflecting glancing impacts. Combine that with a round nose projectile that already is prone to deflecting and you get reports of people getting shot execution style with round nose projectiles surviving with just soft tissue wounds to the scalp.
Bullet shape and construction have more to do with how a bullet will react to meat and bone targets than diameter. I highly suggest reading some Jim Carrillo for some nice anecdotes on people surviving FMJs to the head.
I don't worry about "what type of ammo is best?" I use 200 gr cast semi-flat nose in a 1911 and as has been previously stated, hits are what is most important.
If I had to use ball ammo in my own HP, I don't worry about that either. A whole lot of people have been killed in this world by 9mm ball ammo.
Truthfully reliable feed & extraction is more important to myself and if ball ammo is what I need to do that, so be it.
I don't worry about "what type of ammo is best?" I use 200 gr cast semi-flat nose in a 1911 and as has been previously stated, hits are what is most important.
If I had to use ball ammo in my own HP, I don't worry about that either. A whole lot of people have been killed in this world by 9mm ball ammo.
Truthfully reliable feed & extraction is more important to myself and if ball ammo is what I need to do that, so be it.
please excuse the double post, not sure how I did that.
vicious_cb
04-07-21, 15:24
I don’t think this happens as frequently as is implied on the internet, although I have seen it, after a (rimfire, IIRC) projectile went through a dudes PVS14. Definitely not common with “execution style” up close shots. At least not in my experience; I haven’t tried to find stats, but I’ve seen a lot of GSWs.
I think in the context of deflecting on intermediate barriers, a round nose is more likely to deflect. In the context of humans getting shot in the face? I dunno. Maybe. Seems like more of an urban legend to me. I do believe flatter noses have a tendency to track straighter, and maybe even produce better wounds.
I have not read J Carrillo.
No it doesnt, but its been documented enough that people shouldn't be surprised when a dome shot doesnt end the shenanigans and should train for that eventuality. The "T-zone" or 3x5 index card targets centered around the orbitals/nasal cavity wasnt invented in a vacuum, I guess even the large LE institutions figured out aiming for the buttress bone of the forehead wasnt a smartest idea like in the movies.
I was specifically talking about the skull glancing rounds, the more lateral the hit, the higher chance of it glancing off the skull. I hope more people train to aim more midline and use ammo that is less likely to ricochet.
As for the face, its rare but I have seen some crazy trauma slides. Check out the slides by Dr. Sherman A. House, where a dude walked into his clinic with the complaint of "I cant open my jaw". The x-ray found that he had a .45 bullet lodged between the base of his skull and lower mandible. The dude then gave up his story where he got shot in mexico execution style with a .45 to the face, it entered just below the orbital next to his nose where the bullet bounced around his sinus and down into his mouth and ended up in the soft tissue behind where your wisdom teeth would be. This dude woke up after being shot in the face, illegally crossed the border into the US and ended up in a clinic in Tennessee. The extracted bullet was a 230gr hydrashock, where you could clearly see the "post" of the expanded bullet.
I prefer his stories of how many handgun rnds the goblins absorbed and fought on as "real world" examples of the fact all handgun rnds in duty loads are poor man stoppers when someone says one rnd from (fill in caliber here...) will end the fight. Of course bullet tech today is very different from his day, but not enough to change that reality. He had one story where he and his partner emptied their handguns into a guy, large caliber handguns too I recall, and the goblin still fought on. I don't recall how it finally ended, but it was a story he told about the toughest person he ever dealt with. For some reason, I want to say he was using a .45 Colt revolver, but that maybe faulty memory on my end.
That should be the take home lesson with pistols, if you dont hit something important it doesnt matter what you have loaded in the gun. The most important part of modern bullet technology is CONSISTENCY ie. decreasing the chances of bullets doing weird things especially after impacting intermediate barriers.
Sadly alot of people can't choose what they carry in their guns. Understand the limitations of ball ammo, especially in regards to ricochet. As for the people to CHOOSE to carry ball ammo and not in a pocket gun capacity. You can lead a horse to water but if the horse is too retarded to drink...I think thats how the saying goes.
That should be the take home lesson with pistols, if you dont hit something important it doesnt matter what you have loaded in the gun. The most important part of modern bullet technology is CONSISTENCY ie. decreasing the chances of bullets doing weird things especially after impacting intermediate barriers.
Sadly alot of people can't choose what they carry in their guns. Understand the limitations of ball ammo, especially in regards to ricochet. As for the people to CHOOSE to carry ball ammo and not in a pocket gun capacity. You can lead a horse to water but if the horse is too retarded to drink...I think thats how the saying goes.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.
Truthfully reliable feed & extraction is more important to myself.
With the quantity of quality guns and ammo today this shouldn't be a problem. Like worrying about rough idling or flooding a carbureted car
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No it doesnt, but its been documented enough that people shouldn't be surprised when a dome shot doesnt end the shenanigans and should train for that eventuality. The "T-zone" or 3x5 index card targets centered around the orbitals/nasal cavity wasnt invented in a vacuum, I guess even the large LE institutions figured out aiming for the buttress bone of the forehead wasnt a smartest idea like in the movies.
I was specifically talking about the skull glancing rounds, the more lateral the hit, the higher chance of it glancing off the skull. I hope more people train to aim more midline and use ammo that is less likely to ricochet.
As for the face, its rare but I have seen some crazy trauma slides. Check out the slides by Dr.Sherman, where a dude walked into his clinic with the complaint of "I cant open my jaw". The x-ray found that he had a .45 bullet lodged between the base of his skull and lower mandible. The dude then gave up his story where he got shot in mexico execution style with a .45 to the face, it entered just below the orbital next to his nose where the bullet bounced around his sinus and down into his mouth and ended up in the soft tissue behind where your wisdom teeth would be. This dude woke up after being shot in the face, illegally crossed the border into the US and ended up in a clinic in Tennessee. The extracted bullet was a 230gr hydrashock, where you could clearly see the "post" of the expanded bullet.
That should be the take home lesson with pistols, if you dont hit something important it doesnt matter what you have loaded in the gun. The most important part of modern bullet technology is CONSISTENCY ie. decreasing the chances of bullets doing weird things especially after impacting intermediate barriers.
Sadly alot of people can't choose what they carry in their guns. Understand the limitations of ball ammo, especially in regards to ricochet. As for the people to CHOOSE to carry ball ammo and not in a pocket gun capacity. You can lead a horse to water but if the horse is too retarded to drink...I think thats how the saying goes.I remember reading a few years ago some lady got smacked with a 44 in the forehead and the bullet shattered on impact
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That should be the take home lesson with pistols, if you dont hit something important it doesnt matter what you have loaded in the gun.
In addition to what you wrote I add that when you do hit something very important it also, most likely, wont matter what your gun is loaded with as far as the next several seconds of fighting.
That matters more to LE than the person just trying to survive.
I think handgun performance is a narrow spectrum of performance not a wide one. (Magnum hunting calibers excluded)
With the quantity of quality guns and ammo today this shouldn't be a problem. Like worrying about rough idling or flooding a carbureted car
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probably the majority of situations, key word is: "shouldn't" 1911 seems to be the most trouble-prone albeit it was never designed for hollow point.
modern bullet design is pretty good, my HP has never complained about anything I've run through it. I use plain old winchester 147 gr HP, been using those for decades in it and never had a single jam. Perhaps not the latest and greatest in bullet tech but they're anvil reliable in my HP.
I never bothered with any HP ammo in my 1911, ball was what I originally used then switched to cast semi flat nosed & have used that for 30 years.
I do see many accounts of guns having issues with various types of ammo, mostly non-ball ammo. Speaking for myself if there is the slightest chance of an issue with any ammo, I won't use it.
I don’t think this happens as frequently as is implied on the internet, although I have seen it, after a (rimfire, IIRC) projectile went through a dudes PVS14. Definitely not common with “execution style” up close shots. At least not in my experience; I haven’t tried to find stats, but I’ve seen a lot of GSWs.
I think in the context of deflecting on intermediate barriers, a round nose is more likely to deflect. In the context of humans getting shot in the face? I dunno. Maybe. Seems like more of an urban legend to me. I do believe flatter noses have a tendency to track straighter, and maybe even produce better wounds.
I have not read J Carrillo.
.22lr through the pvs14? I would love to know the story behind that one!
Can we please remember some basic facts, handguns suck for shooting people.
We only should use a handgun when we are prevented from using a rifle.
When using a handguns, regardless of the type of bullet is in the gun shoot till you end the threat. This is why I am a fan of 9mm pistols more BB's on board.
Can we please remember some basic facts, handguns suck for shooting people.
We only should use a handgun when we are prevented from using a rifle.
When using a handguns, regardless of the type of bullet is in the gun shoot till you end the threat. This is why I am a fan of 9mm pistols more BB's on board.
I follow your logic to a point, based on your prior experience, BUT ...
you shot a guy until lock-back with a 1911, and a comrade had to put him down with a carbine.
What difference does it make if you have a 13+1 .45 Glock or a 13+1 Browning High Power? A 21-shot FN 5.7 or HK?
No argument you should bring a rifle if you KNOW you're going to a gunfight.
I don't think your buddy would have just waited for you to get hit with an axe. I imagine he was probably a peer as well. If he was a boss I think besides making you go to a 9mm he would have directed you back to practice more.
Just my two cents. Not trying to be harsh or judgmental, nor sound like an A-hole.
I follow your logic to a point, based on your prior experience, BUT ...
you shot a guy until lock-back with a 1911, and a comrade had to put him down with a carbine.
What difference does it make if you have a 13+1 .45 Glock or a 13+1 Browning High Power? A 21-shot FN 5.7 or HK?
No argument you should bring a rifle if you KNOW you're going to a gunfight.
I don't think your buddy would have just waited for you to get hit with an axe. I imagine he was probably a peer as well. If he was a boss I think besides making you go to a 9mm he would have directed you back to practice more.
Just my two cents. Not trying to be harsh or judgmental, nor sound like an A-hole.
Exactly. I'm guessing Yoni would have fired dry with a 9 as well. That's all it will ever be is a guess. Would he have regained enough cognitive ability to ring the bell prior to lock back if he had a few more rounds. I doubt it. His brain was holding on to the one reptilian thought it could muster. "Shoot threat!" No criticism, and it doesn't negate his round count argument. It's just what happens sometimes. Your higher functions can vapor lock on you sometimes, no matter how experienced you may be.
Teamwork rules.
Can we please remember some basic facts, handguns suck for shooting people.
We only should use a handgun when we are prevented from using a rifle.
When using a handguns, regardless of the type of bullet is in the gun shoot till you end the threat. This is why I am a fan of 9mm pistols more BB's on board.
I follow your logic to a point, based on your prior experience, BUT ...
you shot a guy until lock-back with a 1911, and a comrade had to put him down with a carbine.
What difference does it make if you have a 13+1 .45 Glock or a 13+1 Browning High Power? A 21-shot FN 5.7 or HK?
No argument you should bring a rifle if you KNOW you're going to a gunfight.
I don't think your buddy would have just waited for you to get hit with an axe. I imagine he was probably a peer as well. If he was a boss I think besides making you go to a 9mm he would have directed you back to practice more.
Just my two cents. Not trying to be harsh or judgmental, nor sound like an A-hole.
I used to be a 45acp only guy. I read Cooper and Taylor and others of the 45acp camp.
But I gained experience and was around others that came from other units that were in the same business just for different countries. I had a bad incident with my .45acp, I have seen all pistol calibers fail, and I have seen all pistol calibers work.
I have come to understand that pistol fights involve tactics, awareness, shot placement, and maybe even moving to cover. But in my view it also involves what I think of as "economics of motion". Which means the longer I can shoot without having to reload, the better off I am.
Now regarding the Glock 21 V Hi Power, both with 13 round magazines. I would still go with the Hi Power, I can shoot 9mm a little faster than 45acp. I have owned a Glock 21 in the past and still own a Glock 30.
One of my friends got to buy his customized 1911, this pistol was built for the lads in the unit and it is a way cool gun. But he carried a Glock 9mm in Astan and Iraq, and now at home a Glock 9mm. We both independent of each other came to the same place, we met after we both had left .45acp behind.
But if you have a glock 21 or a double stack 45 1911, you like to carry, go for it. I don't think it will be a choice that will hurt you in a gun fight.
I follow your logic to a point, based on your prior experience, BUT ...
you shot a guy until lock-back with a 1911, and a comrade had to put him down with a carbine.
What difference does it make if you have a 13+1 .45 Glock or a 13+1 Browning High Power? A 21-shot FN 5.7 or HK?
No argument you should bring a rifle if you KNOW you're going to a gunfight.
I don't think your buddy would have just waited for you to get hit with an axe. I imagine he was probably a peer as well. If he was a boss I think besides making you go to a 9mm he would have directed you back to practice more.
Just my two cents. Not trying to be harsh or judgmental, nor sound like an A-hole.
Skill or lack thereof isn't always the problem. Taking someone down with any gun short of a cannon is a statistical proposition. Just like you have outliers in the one shot stop category, there are also outliers in the opposite end of the spectrum, where someone will survive an entire magazine of expertly placed bullets.
The target is actually quite small. Nobody can reliably hit a moving target that small, especially under stress. But you can get good enough to fire groups into a target small enough, that statistically one of them is highly likely to hit.
vicious_cb
04-08-21, 20:07
But I gained experience and was around others that came from other units that were in the same business just for different countries. I had a bad incident with my .45acp, I have seen all pistol calibers fail, and I have seen all pistol calibers work.
I have come to understand that pistol fights involve tactics, awareness, shot placement, and maybe even moving to cover. But in my view it also involves what I think of as "economics of motion". Which means the longer I can shoot without having to reload, the better off I am.
We have another winner folks. Sadly most people will fail to get these golden nuggets you are dropping.
I wouldnt never fault the shooter for dumping a magazine into someones chest cavity and they still didnt go down. You can miss vital structures and major bleeders by mm's and they'll still keep on fighting. Conversely you can blow up someones heart and they still have enough o2 in their brain to fight for another 20-30 secs.
The entire point of choosing good ammo is when you put it all together: tactics, awareness, shot placement ect. is that a minuscule thing like ammo selection doesn't derail the whole thing.
Its like designing a 1 billion dollar submarine and a hatch gets left open during a dive. Choosing good ammo isnt hard, read something like DocGKR's thread and order some good ammo while you're on the toilet.
I don’t think this happens as frequently as is implied on the internet, although I have seen it, after a (rimfire, IIRC) projectile went through a dudes PVS14. Definitely not common with “execution style” up close shots. At least not in my experience; I haven’t tried to find stats, but I’ve seen a lot of GSWs.
I think in the context of deflecting on intermediate barriers, a round nose is more likely to deflect. In the context of humans getting shot in the face? I dunno. Maybe. Seems like more of an urban legend to me. I do believe flatter noses have a tendency to track straighter, and maybe even produce better wounds.
I have not read J Carrillo.
Ive seen bullets deflect off of skulls and other large bones multiple times. I posted about it in the "bullets ricochet off people" thread. In my experience the teeth and cheek bones will deflect rounds pretty regularly. Just kinda depends on how lucky you are as whether the bullet deflects deeper into the head or outwards. Overall bullets deflecting off bone definitely isnt the norm, but Ive seen it happen enough that it isnt surprising at all when I do see it.
I wouldnt never fault the shooter for dumping a magazine into someones chest cavity and they still didnt go down. You can miss vital structures and major bleeders by mm's and the they'll still keep on fighting. Conversely you can blow up someones heart and they still have enough o2 in their brain to fight for another 20-30 secs.
A few years ago we had a detective get killed in a gunfight. He was part of a specialized unit that specifically hunted known violent suspects. Think murders, robbery crews, rapists, etc.. They wear plain clothes and drive UC cars and have their raid vests in the car.
The day in question two of the detectives are driving around and randomly run into a murder suspect they are looking for. The guy opens fire on them with a 357 magnum before they can even stop the car. Driver gets hit through the abdomen and the passenger takes one center chest, straight through the heart. The passenger detective gets out of the car with his AR and shoots the suspect about 10 times before he dies. Bad guy was DRT.
Ive seen bullets deflect off of skulls and other large bones multiple times. I posted about it in the "bullets ricochet off people" thread. In my experience the teeth and cheek bones will deflect rounds pretty regularly. Just kinda depends on how lucky you are as whether the bullet deflects deeper into the head or outwards. Overall bullets deflecting off bone definitely isnt the norm, but Ive seen it happen enough that it isnt surprising at all when I do see it.
We had two officers chase a car load of home invasion suspects and the situation ended with a gun fight on an interstate. One suspect was shot twice in the head with a Colt SMG firing 9mm 115g JHP +P+ ammunition. One round struck the suspect in the forehead above the nose and one round struck the suspect over the right eye at a distance of 17 yards. Both projectiles did not penetrate the skull. One projectile was recovered just below the skin behind the right ear and the other projectile was recovered just below the skin at the base of the skull above the spine. The suspect stopped fighting when he was hit multiple times in the lungs. The suspect was treated at a local hospital and released three weeks later.
In another case, a person tried to commit suicide by placing the muzzle of his 1911 against his right temple and shooting himself in the head. The 230g FMJ projectile did not penetrate his skull and was recovered just below the skin on the opposite side of his head.
The only thing you can expect handgun projectiles to do is to do the unexpected.
Exactly. I'm guessing Yoni would have fired dry with a 9 as well.
Teamwork rules.
In the first incident with the 1911, I was so focused on the arm with the hatchet in it I don't remember counting the rounds I had fired. I was surprised when the pistol went to slide lock.
In the second incident I remember counting the rounds, and remember the thought of transition to head. I didn't shoot the 9mm to slide lock. one shot under the jaw then up through the head.
I think more experience is part of it, but I also think that the more rounds you have before you have to reload is a great thing. I coined the term economy of motion. Which simple means more rounds down range between need to reload.
I'd add that from a rifle length barrel, .357 seems to take on a whole different wounding profile and reaches low rifle velocities. I wonder why there's not more .357 carbines out there, as that rnd seems benefit more than any other from the 18" or so barrel lengths. 1800-2000fps serious hydraulic forces take place with 125 - 158g bullets.
This is why I am so curious about the Leigh Defense round a 65 grain 9mm that is around that 1800fps or even a little more out of a slightly longer barrel.
This is why I am so curious about the Leigh Defense round a 65 grain 9mm that is around that 1800fps or even a little more out of a slightly longer barrel.
Very curious myself.
I think more experience is part of it, but I also think that the more rounds you have before you have to reload is a great thing. I coined the term economy of motion. Which simple means more rounds down range between need to reload.
I can't argue that.
In exchange training with two federal agencies the first had the policy (using 9mm SIG P226s) of "One man, one magazine. Follow him down to the ground."
The other had a (9mm P228) drill where you drew on a 7-yard target and shot to slide lock as fast as you could, reload, and shoot that one to slide-lock as well. Walking the line it was surprising how many had hits all over the silhouette, with occasional leakers off-target. The instructors' point there was to shoot them in the center as fast as you can using a flash sight picture.
I stole a technique from Pat Rogers when he transitioned to 9mm. "Shoot him 'til he stops fighting, changes shape, or catches fire."
Between us, my brother holds the pistol gunfight standard for killing a guy during a rolling, wrestling fight (including a large knife) when he drilled the person once in the chest with a .45 SIG P220. I get satisfaction in having given him the (optional) SIG when he was issued Glock and Smith .40s.
I can't argue that.
In exchange training with two federal agencies the first had the policy (using 9mm SIG P226s) of "One man, one magazine. Follow him down to the ground."
I stole a technique from Pat Rogers when he transitioned to 9mm. "Shoot him 'til he stops fighting, changes shape, or catches fire."
.
I favor the Pat Rogers saying. I have a problem with one man, one magazine. You program your troops into just a mag dump no matter what, in the end you will have a situation where the guy drops his weapon and the agent keeps shooting.
I have a problem with one man, one magazine. You program your troops into just a mag dump no matter what, in the end you will have a situation where the guy drops his weapon and the agent keeps shooting.
It was guidance for mental preparation, not mandated.
Very Strange double tapped by itself a lot latter in time.
I like history. I use to study it more back in the day. Well, not really study per say but just read whatever I could find that was interesting. This was back before the internet. Library cards where mandatory then. Some of you reading this will understand. Some of you reading this will never understand that world. Either way it probably doesn't matter.
Anyway back in that long ago world of reading books I read about the 9mm, its first use by the Germans and how the original ammo was loaded with truncated cone FMJ. The short story is after they started shooting people with the flat nosed full metal jackets the big burly men on the opposing side during WW1 figured it was too effective for such a small cartridge and that it should be a war crime to use such deadly ammo and supposedly our side started killing captured soldiers that had the flat nosed FMJ's in their possession. Mind you it was completely OK to shoot someone with RN FMJ from a 45. Just don't do it with a flat nosed 9mm. THAT was inhumane. Wounds were just too grotesque. So that's why they switched to RN FMJ's.
I spent the last hour trying to find documentation or info to support the above but couldn't really find anything solid academically and at this point I don't want to spend anymore time on it. The most recent place I read about it was in an article in Hand Loader magazine by Terry Weiland. I was kind of disappointed that nobody else has knowledge of the above. Considering the topic of discussion I would have thought someone would have brought it up. But then I should point out that this happened over 100 years ago and was a brief occurrence in the world of small arms.
German 1917 round-nose ball on the left, 1915 truncated cone ball (DWM 1913 pattern) on the right:
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/DWM-1917-9mm-and-1915-9mm.jpg
I would love to read more on the move from truncated cone 9mm to round nose.
I have to say I have never heard this before and I am really shocked by this. I used to hang around with 3 very smart people that were into guns. Two of which have passed away.
I like history. I use to study it more back in the day. Well, not really study per say but just read whatever I could find that was interesting. This was back before the internet. Library cards where mandatory then. Some of you reading this will understand. Some of you reading this will never understand that world. Either way it probably doesn't matter.
Anyway back in that long ago world of reading books I read about the 9mm, its first use by the Germans and how the original ammo was loaded with truncated cone FMJ. The short story is after they started shooting people with the flat nosed full metal jackets the big burly men on the opposing side during WW1 figured it was too effective for such a small cartridge and that it should be a war crime to use such deadly ammo and supposedly our side started killing captured soldiers that had the flat nosed FMJ's in their possession. Mind you it was completely OK to shoot someone with RN FMJ from a 45. Just don't do it with a flat nosed 9mm. THAT was inhumane. Wounds were just too grotesque. So that's why they switched to RN FMJ's.
I spent the last hour trying to find documentation or info to support the above but couldn't really find anything solid academically and at this point I don't want to spend anymore time on it. The most recent place I read about it was in an article in Hand Loader magazine by Terry Weiland. I was kind of disappointed that nobody else has knowledge of the above. Considering the topic of discussion I would have thought someone would have brought it up. But then I should point out that this happened over 100 years ago and was a brief occurrence in the world of small arms.
I would love to read more on the move from truncated cone 9mm to round nose.
I have to say I have never heard this before and I am really shocked by this. I used to hang around with 3 very smart people that were into guns. Two of which have passed away.
Very interested in this as well. While my primary 9mm carry load is the 147gr HST, but reserve carry load is also my primary training round - Federal 147gr FMJFP.
I sent the photo of the 2 German rounds to my partner, and he shocked me to no end when he repeated back the history of the bullets 20 seconds later.
He then replied nice try, you tried to catch me on something you know all about and you hoped I wouldn't know what it was.
I told him of course, I tried to catch him but was not able to do so for he is a subject matter expert.
Sorry guys, I haven't been able to find any legitimate or verifiable source for the terminal ballistics of the truncated cone being the reason for the change. Only anecdotal stories. Mostly that the French thought it was an illegal bullet at the time and threatened to kill any German POW that had it on them when captured.
I doubt the shape of the truncated cone resulted in wounds that were significantly greater in there wounding capability. However I have shot numerous animals with round nose projectiles in calibers from 22 up to 45 and have never been impressed with the results. I've also done the same with non expanding flat nose bullets and continue to use them today for hunting because they work well. Hardly scientific though.
Sorry guys, I haven't been able to find any legitimate or verifiable source for the terminal ballistics of the truncated cone being the reason for the change. Only anecdotal stories. Mostly that the French thought it was an illegal bullet at the time and threatened to kill any German POW that had it on them when captured.
I doubt the shape of the truncated cone resulted in wounds that were significantly greater in there wounding capability. However I have shot numerous animals with round nose projectiles in calibers from 22 up to 45 and have never been impressed with the results. I've also done the same with non expanding flat nose bullets and continue to use them today for hunting because they work well. Hardly scientific though.
I could see the flat nose being a pretty big advantage in a battlefield setting. At close range (i.e. self defense distance), 9mm is highly unlikely to fail, but at the end of its effective range glancing off bone is a real problem.
Sorry guys, I haven't been able to find any legitimate or verifiable source for the terminal ballistics of the truncated cone being the reason for the change. Only anecdotal stories. Mostly that the French thought it was an illegal bullet at the time and threatened to kill any German POW that had it on them when captured.
I doubt the shape of the truncated cone resulted in wounds that were significantly greater in there wounding capability. However I have shot numerous animals with round nose projectiles in calibers from 22 up to 45 and have never been impressed with the results. I've also done the same with non expanding flat nose bullets and continue to use them today for hunting because they work well. Hardly scientific though.
I could see the flat nose being a pretty big advantage in a battlefield setting. At close range (i.e. self defense distance), 9mm is highly unlikely to fail, but at the end of its effective range glancing off bone is a real problem.
I remember using the truncated cone rounds in bowling pin competition years ago (it was common in .40 S&W at the time). They *seemed* less prone to deflect on a less than solid center hit. But without high-speed photographic analysis, who knows. It might have just been wishful thinking.
Sent from 80ms in the future
Alaskapopo
04-13-21, 12:12
I was forced to carry ball ammo at one point in my career, I was one of the few guys that carried a 1911.
It almost got me killed in one incident, it didn't put the guy down and I ran out of bb's before I thought to move to his head. It took one of the other lads shoving his commando over my shoulder and shooting the terrorist in the head to save my life.
I later was told I had to start using a Hi Power also with ball. I had the same kind of attack and I shot the terrorist in the heart and then transitioned to a shot to the head. Problem solved.
I became a 9mm fan that day.
I will tell the truth that most people don't want to hear. You bullet construction will have less than 1% impact on the outcome of your gun fight. Tactics and shot placement, are what counts.
The problem with handgun gun fights is that handguns suck at stopping people. Then we add the unknown of how many rounds will it take to stop that bad guy on that day. I really believe that on Monday the same bad guy make take only 1 round to stop but on Tuesday due to factors outside of anyone's control that same guy might take 20 rounds to stop him
Best post ever.
Pat
indianalex01
07-24-21, 10:43
He means the difference s the capacity is the difference. 9mm ball and 45 ball perform almost identically. With ball perfect shot placement is key due to the small wounds produced by ball. He means he shot the terrorist in the chest with all (assuming 8) shots and ran out. The shots were ineffective so he needed a head shot, but because of the limited capacity he didn't have any more bullets for a head shot
45 and 9mm do not perform almost identically in FMJ. That is untrue.
Alaskapopo
07-24-21, 14:26
45 and 9mm do not perform almost identically in FMJ. That is untrue.
For all practical purposes they do perform nearly identical.
45 and 9mm do not perform almost identically in FMJ. That is untrue.
What are the objective terminal ballistics differences?
45 and 9mm do not perform almost identically in FMJ. That is untrue.
For all practical purposes they do perform nearly identical.
What are the objective terminal ballistics differences?
What Will said. You guys should probably establish the data for comparison.
indianalex01
07-24-21, 21:32
What Will said. You guys should probably establish the data for comparison.
Size and weight matters. Width matters. 9mm is trying to get where 45 already is. Shoot steel plates and see which one falls harder and faster. Rob Learhem does a very good video on it. You tube it. With some of your Logic then 25acp is as good as 9mm, It’s not. If you like 9mm then that’s fine but don’t justify it but saying it’s as good as 45 because it’s not. Don’t BS yourselves. Especially in FMJ
Size and weight matters. Width matters. 9mm is trying to get where 45 already is. Shoot steel plates and see which one falls harder and faster. Rob Learhem does a very good video on it. You tube it. With some of your Logic then 25acp is as good as 9mm, It’s not. If you like 9mm then that’s fine but don’t justify it but saying it’s as good as 45 because it’s not. Don’t BS yourselves. Especially in FMJ
Just to be clear, you're using "you" and "your", but I'm not taking a position. I'm suggesting that whoever makes an assertion try to find objective measures. It's a more meaningful discussion that way.
I carried a 1911 for years and shot some people with it, when you do your job it tends to do it's job. Having said that I had one incident where 9 rounds of .45acp did not make the terrorist dead right now and it took my brother to shoot said terrorist in the head with his rifle.
I then started to carry a Hi Power, and the same can be said about it. When I did my job, it tended to do it's job.
ALL handguns suck embrace it, make it a part of you for it is true.
When a 45 works it is great, when a 9mm works it is great.
I believe you CAN NOT come up with a formula that will turn your favorite handgun and caliber into a death laser one shot stop.
on Day X bad guy Y needs to be shot with good shot placement Z number of times to be stopped.
Your situational awareness, combined with your tactics, combined with your shot placement are what wins gun fights.
The problem with the truth of that statement comes down to one little word, your.
Wait that is scary, I want a magic bullet that will win my gun fight. Sorry no bullet nor no handgun no matter of brand will win your gun fight. (This of course assumes 9mm or bigger and a quality pistol)
I also believe efficiency of motion also might play a role. Meaning how many times will my pistol go bang before I must reload. For if you are at 10 yards or less in a street and your 45 goes to slide lock and despite you sending 9 rounds at your attacker your in a sticky spot. But if you have fire those 9 rounds and the wicket is stick and your pistol still has 9 more rounds before reload your in a better position.
But Yoni, they make today hi cap 45's!
Yes they do.
But can you shoot it as fast and accurate as your 9mm?
Size and weight matters. Width matters. 9mm is trying to get where 45 already is. Shoot steel plates and see which one falls harder and faster. Rob Learhem does a very good video on it. You tube it. With some of your Logic then 25acp is as good as 9mm, It’s not. If you like 9mm then that’s fine but don’t justify it but saying it’s as good as 45 because it’s not. Don’t BS yourselves. Especially in FMJ
Seriously? Again, What are the objective terminal ballistics differences?
And what Yoni said who does not need to "You tube it"...
I carried a 1911 for years and shot some people with it, when you do your job it tends to do it's job. Having said that I had one incident where 9 rounds of .45acp did not make the terrorist dead right now and it took my brother to shoot said terrorist in the head with his rifle.
I then started to carry a Hi Power, and the same can be said about it. When I did my job, it tended to do it's job.
ALL handguns suck embrace it, make it a part of you for it is true.
When a 45 works it is great, when a 9mm works it is great.
I believe you CAN NOT come up with a formula that will turn your favorite handgun and caliber into a death laser one shot stop.
on Day X bad guy Y needs to be shot with good shot placement Z number of times to be stopped.
Your situational awareness, combined with your tactics, combined with your shot placement are what wins gun fights.
The problem with the truth of that statement comes down to one little word, your.
Wait that is scary, I want a magic bullet that will win my gun fight. Sorry no bullet nor no handgun no matter of brand will win your gun fight. (This of course assumes 9mm or bigger and a quality pistol)
I also believe efficiency of motion also might play a role. Meaning how many times will my pistol go bang before I must reload. For if you are at 10 yards or less in a street and your 45 goes to slide lock and despite you sending 9 rounds at your attacker your in a sticky spot. But if you have fire those 9 rounds and the wicket is stick and your pistol still has 9 more rounds before reload your in a better position.
But Yoni, they make today hi cap 45's!
Yes they do.
But can you shoot it as fast and accurate as your 9mm?
Your inbox full. In Panama for the week.
Yea, where's our .357 Mag Rimless for semi-auto carbines? 😃
Or a tube-fed semi-auto .357 Mag with 3 position gas port. (.357, .38, off)
Maybe a rotary mag like the old Ruger .44 carbine? With a bulged stock for housing a 10 round removable magazine? (And look a bit like a mini Johnson rifle 🙂 )
350 Legend?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.350_Legend
indianalex01
07-25-21, 14:59
Seriously? Again, What are the objective terminal ballistics differences?
And what Yoni said who does not need to "You tube it"...
My objective terminal ballistics are to stop a threat effectively. A 45 has more mass and momentum. It make a bigger hole. More damage. Penetration is deep. Pretty simple. I wanted to break it down in a language that everyone could easily understand. Now I will say that I carry a 9mm most days. It’s faster and lighter. 45 hits harder based on what Rob Leathem says and I agree. Chuck Taylor also agrees. I worked a Federal Ammunition for years. I seen the reports. 45 is better but it has its own issues as I mentioned earlier. Weight, recoil(compared to a 9mm) means slower follow up shots. I am not putting anyone down or disregarding anyone’s opinions. My opinion is based on what I have learned from my experience. Thanks
But Yoni, they make today hi cap 45's!
Yes they do.
But can you shoot it as fast and accurate as your 9mm?
If you have not already done so you really should try out a compensated 1911 that is actually tuned correctly and the ammo loaded FOR a compensated pistol. When everything is done right those things shoot extremely flat.
To put in better perspective - If I want to shoot +p level 45ACP loadings out of my 460 Rowland (think compensated 1911 here) I have to drop down to a 12 to 13lb recoil spring weight or it is not going to cycle. That is more or less the same exact recoil spring weight as my Beretta 92's from the factory. Both 'feel' the same as far as the way the slides rise / dip and both will shoot at about the same speed. If you shoot both 'side by side' at the range you really would say 'Damn - That 1911 feels just like the Beretta'.
Trying to keep my 45 vs 9mm comparison limited to full size Beretta 92's and steel, full size 1911's as they are both really close in the weight of the slides, barrel length, and the recoil spring sizes.
Yes, you get a slight bit more of a 'push' when firing those 45ACP +p rounds but the pistol stays 'flat' during the cycling just like a steel / heavy 9mm would...
What indianalex01 said with respect to 'Shoot steel plates and see which one falls harder and faster' is spot on in my opinion. That 45 is going to hit a LOT harder than the 9 every time. Bump up the speed to a 45ACP +p and it will hit even harder. In my case with the 460 Rowland if I want to bump that 230 grain pill up to 9mm velocity - I can. Twice as much weight traveling at the same speed is going to suck for anyone hit by it...
Saw a video (boxoftruth video?) once where they put a Kevlar vest on a big block of clay and shot at it with various round to see what forces would go through and impact the clay. Pistol bullets only and nothing 'armor piercing' that would actually penetrate the vest - They were looking to see what the different forces applied would do to the stuff behind the vest... The bigger and more powerful pistol rounds did a lot more damage than the smaller stuff did every time. Leaving craters instead of dents sort of damage.
After watching videos like that I just can't see how a little guy like me could possible walk away from getting hit center mass with a hot 45 round even if I had a Kevlar vest on. May not be a hole but for sure stuff is going to broken. Guessing there would be LOTS of stuff broken.
If bullet size /weight made absolutely zero difference everyone would be carrying a .22 something and be happy with it. Lots of reasons why they don't...
45 and 9mm do not perform almost identically in FMJ. That is untrue.
In actual tissue, they do. Of course that's highly dependent on which we're talking about. You're going to see different characteristics based on bullet design, but in terms of cavitation they will be identical. The entrance wounds will look different. The variables are going to be penetration depth, deflection, and fragmentation. But given good bullet design, both are fully capable of the same performance in those regards. So whichever one you have, as long as you're buying high quality bullets like gold dots or HSTs you're good to go. Ditto for .40, .357 sig, .45 GAP, etc. When it comes to the duty calibers they're all good, you just have some that are more efficient than others, with 9mm being the gold standard. It does the same job but it does it cheaper with less weight, recoil, and wear on the firearm.
It's not until you get into full house 10mm, full house .357 from a long barrel, .44, etc. that you're going to start seeing some significant wound profiles that are much different from the standard duty calibers like .45 and 9mm. But with that said, there's a report of a guy who was shot dozens of times with a mixture of .40 and 223 gold dots, and none of them were show stoppers. One 223 gold dot had passed within a fraction of an inch of his heart, and he still didn't go down. Just goes to show that anything short of maybe a .50 cal is dependent on shot placement in the real world. What you need is a bullet that's appropriate for the range, that's going to get to the target and penetrate deep enough and in a straight enough line that if you do your job with shot placement the bullet is going to do its job. Virtually any duty caliber fits that bill when it comes to pistols that are able to be carried for self defense.
Would also add that nobody is good enough to hit a heart sized moving target reliably the first time. It's a numbers game. It's about being able to put 10 rounds in the A zone faster than the other guy, and that's going to put statistics on your side. So recoil mitigation without sacrificing performance is a massive factor in winning gunfights.
on Day X bad guy Y needs to be shot with good shot placement Z number of times to be stopped.
Your situational awareness, combined with your tactics, combined with your shot placement are what wins gun fights.
That right there is the definitive answer for fighting & winning with a pistol. ( to an extent, the rifle as well)
indianalex01
07-25-21, 20:51
In actual tissue, they do. Of course that's highly dependent on which we're talking about. You're going to see different characteristics based on bullet design, but in terms of cavitation they will be identical. The entrance wounds will look different. The variables are going to be penetration depth, deflection, and fragmentation. But given good bullet design, both are fully capable of the same performance in those regards. So whichever one you have, as long as you're buying high quality bullets like gold dots or HSTs you're good to go. Ditto for .40, .357 sig, .45 GAP, etc. When it comes to the duty calibers they're all good, you just have some that are more efficient than others, with 9mm being the gold standard. It does the same job but it does it cheaper with less weight, recoil, and wear on the firearm.
It's not until you get into full house 10mm, full house .357 from a long barrel, .44, etc. that you're going to start seeing some significant wound profiles that are much different from the standard duty calibers like .45 and 9mm. But with that said, there's a report of a guy who was shot dozens of times with a mixture of .40 and 223 gold dots, and none of them were show stoppers. One 223 gold dot had passed within a fraction of an inch of his heart, and he still didn't go down. Just goes to show that anything short of maybe a .50 cal is dependent on shot placement in the real world. What you need is a bullet that's appropriate for the range, that's going to get to the target and penetrate deep enough and in a straight enough line that if you do your job with shot placement the bullet is going to do its job. Virtually any duty caliber fits that bill when it comes to pistols that are able to be carried for self defense.
Would also add that nobody is good enough to hit a heart sized moving target reliably the first time. It's a numbers game. It's about being able to put 10 rounds in the A zone faster than the other guy, and that's going to put statistics on your side. So recoil mitigation without sacrificing performance is a massive factor in winning gunfights.
I disagree with you. You said things change when it comes to 10mm, 357 and 44. How? Velocities aren’t that different. Once velocities get to 2000 FPS then things start to change. Not less then that. 45 makes a bigger hole then 9mm. It’s simple physics. The bigger the hole the more blood pours. Again, I carry a 9mm mostly but I try to be a realist. A lot of times people try to justify what they carry (not saying you) by saying something else isn’t as good to feel better about what they carry.
vicious_cb
07-26-21, 01:24
I disagree with you. You said things change when it comes to 10mm, 357 and 44. How? Velocities aren’t that different. Once velocities get to 2000 FPS then things start to change. Not less then that. 45 makes a bigger hole then 9mm. It’s simple physics. The bigger the hole the more blood pours. Again, I carry a 9mm mostly but I try to be a realist. A lot of times people try to justify what they carry (not saying you) by saying something else isn’t as good to feel better about what they carry.
Again you just repeat "makes a bigger hole" like it means anything. It doesnt and that has been proven over and over from ER docs, autopsies and gel tests that wound tracks produced by .45 vs .355 FMJ projectiles are identical to the naked eye.
My objective terminal ballistics are to stop a threat effectively. A 45 has more mass and momentum. It make a bigger hole. More damage. Penetration is deep. Pretty simple. I wanted to break it down in a language that everyone could easily understand. Now I will say that I carry a 9mm most days. It’s faster and lighter. 45 hits harder based on what Rob Leathem says and I agree. Chuck Taylor also agrees. I worked a Federal Ammunition for years. I seen the reports. 45 is better but it has its own issues as I mentioned earlier. Weight, recoil(compared to a 9mm) means slower follow up shots. I am not putting anyone down or disregarding anyone’s opinions. My opinion is based on what I have learned from my experience. Thanks
More mass and momentum are meaningless when a 9mm FMJ can already go through 3 adult bodies back to back or punch through 2 interior walls and have still enough penetration to kill a person.
I disagree with you. You said things change when it comes to 10mm, 357 and 44. How? Velocities aren’t that different. Once velocities get to 2000 FPS then things start to change. Not less then that. 45 makes a bigger hole then 9mm. It’s simple physics. The bigger the hole the more blood pours. Again, I carry a 9mm mostly but I try to be a realist. A lot of times people try to justify what they carry (not saying you) by saying something else isn’t as good to feel better about what they carry.
It's energy. Bigger rock, bigger splash when you throw it in the pond. Or you can throw a small rock harder to achieve the same size splash. Of course there's more to it than that, but energy levels are a pretty good indicator of how a bullet might perform. Again, though, there's a documented case of a 223 gold dot passing within a fraction of an inch of a guy's heart and him still being able to shoot back after that. Everything in the A zone is extremely resilient and therefore extremely resistant to tearing.
The reason .45 doesn't make a bigger hole, aside from the entrance wound, is that human tissue can stretch way beyond any caliber we could carry and bounce back unharmed. Anything from .22 to .50 is going to leave more or less the same sized hole.
ETA: Oh, the reason things change somewhat with 10mm and up is that those are the threshold energy levels required to make a big enough stretch cavity to start tearing flesh in significant ways. Some studies have shown that permanent cavities can start to form around the 500 ft lbs level, but it's minute to nonexistent in the types of tissue we're concerned with.
If bullet size /weight made absolutely zero difference everyone would be carrying a .22 something and be happy with it. Lots of reasons why they don't...
Steel targets, clay blocks, etc are not people. I really don't have an interest in what a pistol bullet will do to any of those things.
I care about winning a fight. I have carried a 1911 45acp into harms way and also 9mm Hi Power and now it is CZ P)9/07 9mm.
I am not trying to change anyone's mind about what they carry just share what I have lived.
This is what wins fights, on Day X bad guy Y needs to be shot with good shot placement Z number of times to be stopped.
Your situational awareness, combined with your tactics, combined with your shot placement are what wins gun fights.
I have never said carry a .22 for defending your life.
Steel targets, clay blocks, etc are not people. I really don't have an interest in what a pistol bullet will do to any of those things.
I care about winning a fight. I have carried a 1911 45acp into harms way and also 9mm Hi Power and now it is CZ P)9/07 9mm.
I am not trying to change anyone's mind about what they carry just share what I have lived.
This is what wins fights, on Day X bad guy Y needs to be shot with good shot placement Z number of times to be stopped.
Your situational awareness, combined with your tactics, combined with your shot placement are what wins gun fights.
I have never said carry a .22 for defending your life.
This is the correct answer IMHO. ^^^^^^
I've had conversations with people in the medical community who state "they did not need to shoot them this many times" to the press. One doctor stated a homeowner did not need to shoot a home invader as many times as he did and I asked "how many shots does it take to stop a determined attacker?" I asked "which shot stopped the attacker?" The doctor told me one shot is sufficient, which is horse hockey.
A month later the same doctor spoke to the press about a motorcycle fatality where the motorcyclist suffered a compound fracture to the femur, which severed the femoral artery causing him to bleed to death. The doctor stated "if he had been wearing a helmet, he'd still be alive." So much for the doctor's credibility.
It's difficult to rely on most members of the medical community for an educated opinion on what works and what does not. Ballistic gelatin can give us a general idea about what might happen to a projectile once it enters the human body under ideal circumstances. Shooting steel and clay targets can tell us how well a certain caliber performs on steel and clay targets. In my opinion, the most reliable information comes from people who have survived several gunfights.
My objective terminal ballistics are to stop a threat effectively. A 45 has more mass and momentum. It make a bigger hole. More damage. Penetration is deep. Pretty simple. I wanted to break it down in a language that everyone could easily understand. Now I will say that I carry a 9mm most days. It’s faster and lighter. 45 hits harder based on what Rob Leathem says and I agree. Chuck Taylor also agrees. I worked a Federal Ammunition for years. I seen the reports. 45 is better but it has its own issues as I mentioned earlier. Weight, recoil(compared to a 9mm) means slower follow up shots. I am not putting anyone down or disregarding anyone’s opinions. My opinion is based on what I have learned from my experience. Thanks
Which amounted to telling us to Youtube it. Leathem is not a combat shooter, nor an SME on the topic of terminal ballistics. The fact remains, there's a minimal difference between them, all pistols rnds in typical duty loads are poor manstoppers, and the added capacity, reduced recoil, etc, gives the 9mm the edge, and why so many orgs have returned to it. Now, again, from a "real world" perspective, from a member here - a highly vetted one at that - who has personally put goblins down using both, favored the 9mm for reasons he has given various places in this thread.
If one looks at n = 1 of a .45 vs 9mm in a vacuum, I can see the reason someone might choose the .45. In the real world and net balance when comparing them including all variables, the 9mm is the obvious choice. While aging, the seminal doc to read is via FBI doc "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
This is the correct answer IMHO. ^^^^^^
I've had conversations with people in the medical community who state "they did not need to shoot them this many times" to the press. One doctor stated a homeowner did not need to shoot a home invader as many times as he did and I asked "how many shots does it take to stop a determined attacker?" I asked "which shot stopped the attacker?" The doctor told me one shot is sufficient, which is horse hockey.
A month later the same doctor spoke to the press about a motorcycle fatality where the motorcyclist suffered a compound fracture to the femur, which severed the femoral artery causing him to bleed to death. The doctor stated "if he had been wearing a helmet, he'd still be alive." So much for the doctor's credibility.
It's difficult to rely on most members of the medical community for an educated opinion on what works and what does not. Ballistic gelatin can give us a general idea about what might happen to a projectile once it enters the human body under ideal circumstances. Shooting steel and clay targets can tell us how well a certain caliber performs on steel and clay targets. In my opinion, the most reliable information comes from people who have survived several gunfights.
I had a debate with a doc who recommend .25 for SD, as he said he saw more dead guys with wounds from the .25 than any other as a pathologist and coroner. I explained to him death was not the metric of success for the shooter per se, as one could dump a mag of .25 into the person, who then beat you to death with that empty .25, then bleed out a mile down the road.
He could not fathom that reality that while stopping the threat may lead to death, death alone as the metric was literally useless as it applies to the issue. All it says is thugs, gang bangers and such often use the .25 in his AO as the guns are cheap and easy to conceal, and that's about it.
So per usual, context and the big picture has to be looked at there, and some of the most educated often incapable of doing so.
350 Legend?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.350_Legend
Pretty darn close!
I have had people tell me that they carry a .22 for self defense because certain agencies and units from Israel have used suppressed .22 Beretta's in the past.
Which is so dumb as to have me questioning if the person should even have a gun.
Walking up behind someone that is in a relaxed state and emptying a magazine in the back of their head does not a face to face gun fight make.
I had a debate with a doc who recommend .25 for SD, as he said he saw more dead guys with wounds from the .25 than any other as a pathologist and coroner. I explained to him death was not the metric of success for the shooter per se, as one could dump a mag of .25 into the person, who then beat you to death with that empty .25, then bleed out a mile down the road.
He could not fathom that reality that while stopping the threat may lead to death, death alone as the metric was literally useless as it applies to the issue. All it says is thugs, gang bangers and such often use the .25 in his AO as the guns are cheap and easy to conceal, and that's about it.
So per usual, context and the big picture has to be looked at there, and some of the most educated often incapable of doing so.
I had a conversation with a Chicago PD officer who shot an armed suspect with a .45 ACP service pistol. He placed two rounds of 185g JHP +P in the sternum of the suspect at close range, then the suspect dropped his handgun and ran away. He found the suspect several blocks away after the suspect lost enough blood to induce a heart attack. Up until that point, the .45 ACP was his preferred caliber in a service pistol cartridge.
A service pistol caliber is the recommendation I would make to someone who wants to buy a defensive handgun. The .25 ACP, .22 LR, etc. are not service pistol calibers. How many rounds it will take to stop an attacker is unknown and magazine capacity would be a consideration when making a choice.
I must say if a .451 fmj bullet doesn't do more damage than .355 fmj then I sure feel fine carrying my 3.8 in barrel Beretta with its .312 bullets. (73 gr @ 1000 fps my chrono)
They all penetrate at least 18" of cal. Ordinance gelatin.
Mr. Fackler stated that with an unobstructed frontal shot any bullet can work.
I think .45 will cause more damage with slightly less chance of over penetration and also reduced penetration of some barriers. (Which may be good or bad)
There are plenty of .45's that hold 11-15 shots.
I'm just talking about pistol bullets and fmj here per the topic.
I have had people tell me that they carry a .22 for self defense because certain agencies and units from Israel have used suppressed .22 Beretta's in the past.
Which is so dumb as to have me questioning if the person should even have a gun.
Walking up behind someone that is in a relaxed state and emptying a magazine in the back of their head does not a face to face gun fight make.
Much better is, people who do not carry with one in the pipe, and will say that's how the Israelis do it, so good enough for them. Heard that one plenty of times over the years. aka "The Israeli method."
Consider;
if Mr. Yoni, who I appreciate for going on the offensive against murderous religious zealots, had a Beretta Cheetah or CZ-83 in 7.65 mm / .32 acp or 9mm Short / .380 he would have had another 4-7 extra shots to put in his attackers face / head and are even more controllable than 9x19.
My point being .32 and .380 fmj should not be disrespected as much as they are.
I have had people tell me that they carry a .22 for self defense because certain agencies and units from Israel have used suppressed .22 Beretta's in the past.
Which is so dumb as to have me questioning if the person should even have a gun.
Walking up behind someone that is in a relaxed state and emptying a magazine in the back of their head does not a face to face gun fight make.Not that I disagree but I think those people are thinking of the several hostage situations where Israeli agents managed to take out the terrorists with Beretta 22s in actual gun fights. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was one agent who was famous for that
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Not that I disagree but I think those people are thinking of the several hostage situations where Israeli agents managed to take out the terrorists with Beretta 22s in actual gun fights. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was one agent who was famous for that
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
He will correct as needed, but I believe the primary use of suppressed .22 Beretta's were as tools of assassination, likely done from behind, very close, and to the back of head and the terrorist, Nazi, goblin never knew what hit them.
Or, I have read one too many spy novel...
If bullet size /weight made absolutely zero difference everyone would be carrying a .22 something and be happy with it. Lots of reasons why they don't...
I would totally carry a .22 if it would penetrate to a reliable depth in a straight line every time. Unfortunately they just don't, especially from a shorter barrel. .32 ACP is also suspect, and even .380 has its doubts. I actually wish .30 Luger had survived to become the dominant duty cartridge over 9mm. As far as I can tell it gets the job done even more efficiently.
indianalex01
07-26-21, 17:25
It's energy. Bigger rock, bigger splash when you throw it in the pond. Or you can throw a small rock harder to achieve the same size splash. Of course there's more to it than that, but energy levels are a pretty good indicator of how a bullet might perform. Again, though, there's a documented case of a 223 gold dot passing within a fraction of an inch of a guy's heart and him still being able to shoot back after that. Everything in the A zone is extremely resilient and therefore extremely resistant to tearing.
The reason .45 doesn't make a bigger hole, aside from the entrance wound, is that human tissue can stretch way beyond any caliber we could carry and bounce back unharmed. Anything from .22 to .50 is going to leave more or less the same sized hole.
ETA: Oh, the reason things change somewhat with 10mm and up is that those are the threshold energy levels required to make a big enough stretch cavity to start tearing flesh in significant ways. Some studies have shown that permanent cavities can start to form around the 500 ft lbs level, but it's minute to nonexistent in the types of tissue we're concerned with.
The temp cavity starts to become permanent at 2000 FPS. Not a 10mm velocities.
indianalex01
07-26-21, 17:31
I had a conversation with a Chicago PD officer who shot an armed suspect with a .45 ACP service pistol. He placed two rounds of 185g JHP +P in the sternum of the suspect at close range, then the suspect dropped his handgun and ran away. He found the suspect several blocks away after the suspect lost enough blood to induce a heart attack. Up until that point, the .45 ACP was his preferred caliber in a service pistol cartridge.
A service pistol caliber is the recommendation I would make to someone who wants to buy a defensive handgun. The .25 ACP, .22 LR, etc. are not service pistol calibers. How many rounds it will take to stop an attacker is unknown and magazine capacity would be a consideration when making a choice.
So what did the cop go with since 45 isn’t good enough for him? 44 mag? I mean Im sure you must have talked about what he carries since the 45 doesn’t stop people.
So what did the cop go with since 45 isn’t good enough for him? 44 mag? I mean Im sure you must have talked about what he carries since the 45 doesn’t stop people.
Some how I don't see Chicago PD authorizing the .44 Mag as a duty weapon. I suspect, .45 is as big caliber wise as they allow. Some PDs give some choices as to what LEOs can use on duty, as well as off, some don't. Here's ChitHole Cago:
http://directives.chicagopolice.org/directives/data/a7a57b38-137ec5db-e6913-7ec6-7ee3ce8cb24a817d.html
I had a conversation with a Chicago PD officer who shot an armed suspect with a .45 ACP service pistol. He placed two rounds of 185g JHP +P in the sternum of the suspect at close range, then the suspect dropped his handgun and ran away. He found the suspect several blocks away after the suspect lost enough blood to induce a heart attack. Up until that point, the .45 ACP was his preferred caliber in a service pistol cartridge.
A service pistol caliber is the recommendation I would make to someone who wants to buy a defensive handgun. The .25 ACP, .22 LR, etc. are not service pistol calibers. How many rounds it will take to stop an attacker is unknown and magazine capacity would be a consideration when making a choice.Plenty of examples like that. About 10 years ago 40 minutes from me homeowner shoots an intruder. Two rounds of 220gr 45acp to the upper stomach area. Cops found the guy wondering around the next morning. In pain but not in serious condition.
Cop in MN tries to stop a mall theft. Guy turns and shoots the cop 7 times with a 45, two of which hit him in the face. After a brief struggle the cop kills the thief with a 9mm. There were pictures and an interview on YouTube a few years ago. The 45 call holes in his face looked like 22lr
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Steel targets, clay blocks, etc are not people. I really don't have an interest in what a pistol bullet will do to any of those things.
It has to do with the energy imparted to the object hit and a 45 ACP will have more energy all day long than a 9mm. Bump up the speed to the same as 9mm (not impossible as I mentioned earlier) and that is a LOT more energy than a 9mm.
If baddie is wearing a vest that 9mm is doing nothing to it or the chest behind it. You might as well be throwing rocks...
and the added capacity, reduced recoil, etc, gives the 9mm the edge, and why so many orgs have returned to it.
Or... They returned to something smaller because they have so many women (diversity / quotas / etc.) on the force now that can't handle anything bigger.
It has to do with the energy imparted to the object hit and a 45 ACP will have more energy all day long than a 9mm. Bump up the speed to the same as 9mm (not impossible as I mentioned earlier) and that is a LOT more energy than a 9mm.
If baddie is wearing a vest that 9mm is doing nothing to it or the chest behind it. You might as well be throwing rocks...
The "energy dump" hypothesis in typical duty pistol loads was debunked a long time ago, as in decades. The energy between them is minimal, and again, the seminal doc to read to understand the topic is "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" by Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT FBI ACADEMY QUANTICO:
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
Or... They returned to something smaller because they have so many women (diversity / quotas / etc.) on the force now that can't handle anything bigger.
Might be a factor, but the primary variable was it was found that modern JHP's in common duty loads had very similar terminal ballistics, but others here are more qualified to answer that as it applies to how/why PDs and fed orgs made their choices for duty loads.
vicious_cb
07-26-21, 19:08
It has to do with the energy imparted to the object hit and a 45 ACP will have more energy all day long than a 9mm. Bump up the speed to the same as 9mm (not impossible as I mentioned earlier) and that is a LOT more energy than a 9mm.
If baddie is wearing a vest that 9mm is doing nothing to it or the chest behind it. You might as well be throwing rocks...
Congrats, You just rehashed every 9mm vs .45 myth in one post. I can't take this thread seriously after this.
But yes you should be using .45 ACP. Because while 9mm may kill, .45 ACP will take his soul. :dirol:
Congrats, You just rehashed every disproven and debunked 9mm vs .45 myth in one post. I can't take this thread seriously after this.
Fixed it for ya. 13 pages, and some just refuse to learn what's been known/established for decades now. At least "stopping power" was not brought up.
The temp cavity starts to become permanent at 2000 FPS. Not a 10mm velocities.
Mass and bullet shape also play a factor. Doc Roberts stated they start seeing serious wounding mechanism from temporary stretch cavitation when using heavy 44 mag loads, which dont hit anywhere near 2000 FPS. There is a reason why handgun hunters use a wide meplat bullet when hunting large and dangerous game.
So what did the cop go with since 45 isn’t good enough for him? 44 mag? I mean Im sure you must have talked about what he carries since the 45 doesn’t stop people.
He traded his .45 ACP pistol for a Model 459 S&W chambered in 9mm, which he carried for the rest of his career. Thankfully, he is retired now. He did not hate the .45 ACP after the shooting. The .45 ACP was not the magic man stopper he had heard so many times from other people, so he decided a higher capacity service pistol was a good idea for duty use.
Pistols suck at stopping people. Sometimes it takes one shot, sometimes it takes several. Sometimes several won't work.
The temp cavity starts to become permanent at 2000 FPS. Not a 10mm velocities.
There's no magic number where velocity irrespective of bullet weight starts do anything. Generally speaking, around the 500 ft lbs level you start to see tearing in certain tissues. Depending on the tissue, it may even be dramatic, like in the liver or brain. Around 1k ft lbs is when you start seeing pretty significant tearing in muscle tissue, shattering of bones, etc.
indianalex01
07-26-21, 22:40
There's no magic number where velocity irrespective of bullet weight starts do anything. Generally speaking, around the 500 ft lbs level you start to see tearing in certain tissues. Depending on the tissue, it may even be dramatic, like in the liver or brain. Around 1k ft lbs is when you start seeing pretty significant tearing in muscle tissue, shattering of bones, etc.
Not true. 2000 FPS is where temp cavity starts to become permanent. That why rifles do more damage then pistols.
[QUOTE=DG23;2965346
If baddie is wearing a vest that 9mm is doing nothing to it or the chest behind it. You might as well be throwing rocks...[/QUOTE]
Which is why my primary target is it is close is to shoot them in the face. This became my way of doing things after my first 9mm shooting where I transitioned from the body to a head shot. So I got thinking if they are close enough, just start with the head.
You can carry for 45 or 460 Roland in good health.
indianalex01
07-26-21, 22:42
He traded his .45 ACP pistol for a Model 459 S&W chambered in 9mm, which he carried for the rest of his career. Thankfully, he is retired now. He did not hate the .45 ACP after the shooting. The .45 ACP was not the magic man stopper he had heard so many times from other people, so he decided a higher capacity service pistol was a good idea for duty use.
Pistols suck at stopping people. Sometimes it takes one shot, sometimes it takes several. Sometimes several won't work.
So let me get this straight… he said 45 didn’t stop someone in a shooting so he switches to a smaller bullet? Sounds weird to me but ok.
Much better is, people who do not carry with one in the pipe, and will say that's how the Israelis do it, so good enough for them. Heard that one plenty of times over the years. aka "The Israeli method."
It was done that way along time ago, due to almost ZERO training and having to throw people into combat in 48, sometimes 2 or more guys would share a rifle and if they were luck they might get a pistol.
But when you have a ton of different types of pistols and no time to teach the different systems, safety off, no bullet in the barrel, rack the slide to shoot worked .
Today no top unit, nor agency teaches or uses the "Israeli method".
Consider;
if Mr. Yoni, who I appreciate for going on the offensive against murderous religious zealots, had a Beretta Cheetah or CZ-83 in 7.65 mm / .32 acp or 9mm Short / .380 he would have had another 4-7 extra shots to put in his attackers face / head and are even more controllable than 9x19.
My point being .32 and .380 fmj should not be disrespected as much as they are.
I have been in situations unarmed, that got a little strange and thought it was going to be the end of me, when a RG .22 cal revolver with a broken grip would have given me comfort.
Not that I disagree but I think those people are thinking of the several hostage situations where Israeli agents managed to take out the terrorists with Beretta 22s in actual gun fights. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was one agent who was famous for that
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Sabina hijacked plane was taken back by Sayret Metkal, using .22 pistols If I remember they were suppressed. This was before my time, but the assault was done by stealth and they I think wanted to keep the killing of other terrorist in other parts of the plane low profile .
He will correct as needed, but I believe the primary use of suppressed .22 Beretta's were as tools of assassination, likely done from behind, very close, and to the back of head and the terrorist, Nazi, goblin never knew what hit them.
Or, I have read one too many spy novel...
No you have it correct, but for one case where the operator found the Nazi that command the camp where 99% of his family was murdered. He didn't report the location, but he grabbed a hammer he saw on the dock where the Nazi had his boat tied up and he then went aboard the Nazis boat and beat him to death with the hammer.
Damn, I forgot to ask if the hammer was 9mm or 45 and if it had a bullet up the pipe.
So let me get this straight… he said 45 didn’t stop someone in a shooting so he switches to a smaller bullet? Sounds weird to me but ok.
But that is exactly what I did.
Why.
Because all handguns SUCK for shooting people!
45 v 9mm is just as silly an argument in 2021 as saying a certain type of color of hair make a woman better at sex.
You can take a man that has tons of women and he can't tell you which color of hair makes the sex more enjoyable. Why because the blond he had sex with yesterday was terrible, but the black haired girl was great. But two days later it might be they both were terrible but the red haired girl rocked his world.
Gun fights with pistols are the same.
So my life has taught me the formula I shared about how we can't know anything about something that is impossible to prove. Which brought me to my economics of motion, the longer the gun can go bang and the faster I can accurately make it go bang the better.
9mm fits this bill in my mind. Easier to shoot fast and accurate and in my CZ I can have 22 rounds in the pistol.
vicious_cb
07-26-21, 23:20
Which is why my primary target is it is close is to shoot them in the face. This became my way of doing things after my first 9mm shooting where I transitioned from the body to a head shot. So I got thinking if they are close enough, just start with the head.
You can carry for 45 or 460 Roland in good health.
Sometimes even a face shot wont work, Jared Reston took a .45 to the face, 3 to his vest, 1 to the leg and one through his ass that broke his hip and he still smoked the bad guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDA52PzdOsU
My point being .32 and .380 fmj should not be disrespected as much as they are.
I completely agree.
While maybe not the "optimum" caliber ( what is?) They certainly can be good enough to get the job done.
This video may help answer a lot of questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y
There's no magic number where velocity irrespective of bullet weight starts do anything. Generally speaking, around the 500 ft lbs level you start to see tearing in certain tissues. Depending on the tissue, it may even be dramatic, like in the liver or brain. Around 1k ft lbs is when you start seeing pretty significant tearing in muscle tissue, shattering of bones, etc.
This is exactly what I have seen when gutting Deer and Wild Hogs we have shot with Pistols and Big Bore Revolvers. I totally understand what your saying but since this is Tec. I'm not gonna derail this any further. 😎
Sometimes even a face shot wont work, Jared Reston took a .45 to the face, 3 to his vest, 1 to the leg and one through his ass that broke his hip and he still smoked the bad guy.
]
I never shoot just one shot when using a pistol. You put rounds into the target until they are down and out.
So let me get this straight… he said 45 didn’t stop someone in a shooting so he switches to a smaller bullet? Sounds weird to me but ok.
You'll like this even better. He was involved in two shooting incidents during the course of his career and he feels comfortable carrying a .38 Special J-Frame with two speed strips when he is out and about town.
I'd rather have him covering my six with a J-Frame than an inexperienced person carrying a hi-cap 9mm pistol.
Shot in the face with a 9mm, lost a tooth.
https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/images/photos/military/graphics/teeth6.jpg?resize=450%2C513&crop_strategy=smart
https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/images/photos/military/graphics/teeth4.jpg?resize=454%2C492&crop_strategy=smart
But that is exactly what I did.
Why.
Because all handguns SUCK for shooting people!
45 v 9mm is just as silly an argument in 2021 as saying a certain type of color of hair make a woman better at sex.
You can take a man that has tons of women and he can't tell you which color of hair makes the sex more enjoyable. Why because the blond he had sex with yesterday was terrible, but the black haired girl was great. But two days later it might be they both were terrible but the red haired girl rocked his world.
Gun fights with pistols are the same.
So my life has taught me the formula I shared about how we can't know anything about something that is impossible to prove. Which brought me to my economics of motion, the longer the gun can go bang and the faster I can accurately make it go bang the better.
9mm fits this bill in my mind. Easier to shoot fast and accurate and in my CZ I can have 22 rounds in the pistol.
Some people will not "get" it, no matter how much evidence, be it objective testing, or real world experience, is supplied. Some prefer to hang onto outdated and debunked concepts like "knock down" power, etc.
You can lead a horse to water, can't make him think.
Now we have cop shot in the face with 45 and isn't dead and we have soldier shot in face with 9mm and isn't dead.
Thank you, this proves my point better than a million words.
HANDGUNS SUCK. STOPPING POWER IS A UNICORN.
Carry what ever you want, if you are cool using a 45 that has the ability to carry 13 or more rounds in the mag have at it. If your like 99% of the people and can get slightly better speed and accuracy out of a 9mm then I think that is what you should carry.
My gun for when I want to go unarmed is a Glock 26 with a plus 2 mag.
Now we have cop shot in the face with 45 and isn't dead and we have soldier shot in face with 9mm and isn't dead.
Thank you, this proves my point better than a million words.
HANDGUNS SUCK. STOPPING POWER IS A UNICORN.
Carry what ever you want, if you are cool using a 45 that has the ability to carry 13 or more rounds in the mag have at it. If your like 99% of the people and can get slightly better speed and accuracy out of a 9mm then I think that is what you should carry.
My gun for when I want to go unarmed is a Glock 26 with a plus 2 mag.
There's a classic story where a trooper emptied a .357 revolver into a goblin* and the goblin returned fire with a single shot from a small caliber weapon (possibly a .22 but memory fuzzy) and the trooper died and the goblin lived. Demonstrating again the wide variability of outcomes with pistol rnds. If memory serves, the trooper even had a vest on, and it was just a truly unlikely way the single bullet struck him. Maybe others recall the details of that. There are of course too many confirmed events of goblins absorbing 10, 12, 14 etc rnds of (name typical duty load here) and fighting on until someone with a long gun showed up and put it down. Finally, the LEO I know and spoke to about the OIS they'd been involved with was, how surprised they were at the total lack of obvious visual feedback their rnds had any effects, making them think they'd missed their targets. That seems a common experience from what I gather. No doubt, all the above is what lead to the SOP of shooting until the threat is no longer a threat vs older approaches such as shoot and asses and such.
* = There was some speculation that he had .38 in the .357 and I'm not sure of that was ever fully ascertained or not.
I have a project I wanted to get to and didn't have the time, and now when I have the time, can't get the ammo.
I am very curious about the super light Leigh 68 grain at 1800fps and even more curious about the 65 grain .357sig at 2100fps. I called them and they stated those were both real velocities out of a Glock 19 and 32. I want to shoot hogs with them out of a Glock 34 9mm and Glock 35 .357sig.
If they do what I think they might do, it could be a game changer for handguns.
I have a project I wanted to get to and didn't have the time, and now when I have the time, can't get the ammo.
I am very curious about the super light Leigh 68 grain at 1800fps and even more curious about the 65 grain .357sig at 2100fps. I called them and they stated those were both real velocities out of a Glock 19 and 32. I want to shoot hogs with them out of a Glock 34 9mm and Glock 35 .357sig.
If they do what I think they might do, it could be a game changer for handguns.
I have been interested in that company and the claims etc too. Tried to purchase, put name on a waiting list.
"On paper" looks quite interesting, maybe not yet another super bullet of dubious physics defying claims. Maybe...
I have a project I wanted to get to and didn't have the time, and now when I have the time, can't get the ammo.
I am very curious about the super light Leigh 68 grain at 1800fps and even more curious about the 65 grain .357sig at 2100fps. I called them and they stated those were both real velocities out of a Glock 19 and 32. I want to shoot hogs with them out of a Glock 34 9mm and Glock 35 .357sig.
If they do what I think they might do, it could be a game changer for handguns.
I chronographed the 90 gr version from Underwood from a Glock 32 I had.
5 shots averaged 1596 fps with a SD of 25 fps. Cases weren't bulged at all.
If your referring to the Lehigh Defense bullets that Underwood loads, count me as a fan. I've seen enough internet testing (take that for what you will) & through my own mediocre tests that I'm convinced they are a definite upgrade for handguns. Especially in the smaller calibers, i.e. .32 .380. In my opinion they give the deep penetration needed & due to the flutes give wound cavities at least equal to if not surpassing todays "go to" hollow points.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just relating my opinion from many years as a diplomatic bodyguard, LEO & Marine.
When I step out, My M&P 9mm compact/RDS equipped or my Beretta compact are both loaded with Lehigh bullets.
I carried a .45 1911 for 25 years & drank the Kool-Aid big time but like yoni & others here, I've concluded that capacity & what you can hit fast & accurately repeatedly is how to win gunfights. For me that's a 124g 9mm.
I would totally carry a .22 if it would penetrate to a reliable depth in a straight line every time. Unfortunately they just don't, especially from a shorter barrel. .32 ACP is also suspect, and even .380 has its doubts. I actually wish .30 Luger had survived to become the dominant duty cartridge over 9mm. As far as I can tell it gets the job done even more efficiently.
This is true.
Sykes and Fairbane were very familiar with fmj because that's what they dealt with Shanghai training Police to fight gangsters in the 1920's and 30's.
They reported no difference between the performance of .32 through .455 Webley that they could tell. (In its defense .455 is damn slow at 550-650 fps)
They agreed .22 and .25 were not service calibers and didnt report any further about them.
They did mention that 7.63 Mauser did better than the others due to its penetration performance of people and barriers. Since it also came in the form of a 10-shot semi auto is was the cool gun to have at the time.
They didnt care for single action pistols for defensive concealed carry citing safety but otherwise they were better combat handguns than revolvers.
However citing the importance of quick-reaction to attack they preffered revolvers for concealed self defense.
For police encounters they certainly stressed drawing and shooting quickly, accurately, and as much as you need to. Bring ammo and team mates, etc.
If your referring to the Lehigh Defense bullets that Underwood loads, count me as a fan. I've seen enough internet testing (take that for what you will) & through my own mediocre tests that I'm convinced they are a definite upgrade for handguns. Especially in the smaller calibers, i.e. .32 .380. In my opinion they give the deep penetration needed & due to the flutes give wound cavities at least equal to if not surpassing todays "go to" hollow points.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just relating my opinion from many years as a diplomatic bodyguard, LEO & Marine.
When I step out, My M&P 9mm compact/RDS equipped or my Beretta compact are both loaded with Lehigh bullets.
I carried a .45 1911 for 25 years & drank the Kool-Aid big time but like yoni & others here, I've concluded that capacity & what you can hit fast & accurately repeatedly is how to win gunfights. For me that's a 124g 9mm.
I actually don't buy into the Lehigh bullet flutes at all. I just see it as lightweight high velocity fmj bullets.
But if it penetrates enough with lower recoil great.
I do have concerns that the .32 Beretta Cheetah I often carry shoots bullets more easily deflected off-path against various tissues of attackers be they man or beast.
But since most people who stop aggressive activity in the short term do so due to psychology and not physical damage to the body it doesn't bother me much.
More concerned about getting good hits with a small gun and sights.
This is exactly what I have seen when gutting Deer and Wild Hogs we have shot with Pistols and Big Bore Revolvers. I totally understand what your saying but since this is Tec. I'm not gonna derail this any further. 😎
Shooting animals is probably about the best reference we have for how bullets actually behave in living tissues. Pigs especially are extremely similar to an ideal human specimen, but even deer are similar enough to be relevant. Pigs just happen to have very similar physiology to us, and the average wild hog is pretty similar dimensionally, too. In other words, if a bullet does xyz in an average sized pig, it's a pretty safe bet that it would do similar things in a well built person.
I actually don't buy into the Lehigh bullet flutes at all. I just see it as lightweight high velocity fmj bullets.
But if it penetrates enough with lower recoil great.
I agree. There are theories that you can direct hydraulic pressure to create asymmetric cavities, but rounds like 5.7 kind of disprove it. For example, with the solid copper FMJ style bullets, the energy is only being directed in two directions and you still don't get that effect. You definitely see more of an ovular shaped temp cavity and asymmetric permanent cavity in gel, but the wounds in people are reported to be pretty much identical to any other handgun with similar energy.
Solid copper bullets do have a lot of advantages though. Barrier penetration being one. The flutes don't really reduce that, but they do limit penetration in tissue. So in that regard they're way more reliable than expanding hollow points in terms of being barrier blind while still not over penetrating in tissue. And with the lighter bullets going faster you have a slightly flatter trajectory and longer range.
So...we want a 9x19 necked down to .30 cal. or a rimless, high pressure .32 S&W Long using existing and new .312 cal bullets 60-115 grs. 😁
Maybe Ruger will do it for us...
".30 Ruger Auto", ".31 Ruger Auto", or ".32 Ruger Auto".
So let me get this straight… he said 45 didn’t stop someone in a shooting so he switches to a smaller bullet? Sounds weird to me but ok.
Cause there is no difference in the energy of course.
Sarcasm off now...
Shooting animals is probably about the best reference we have for how bullets actually behave in living tissues. Pigs especially are extremely similar to an ideal human specimen, but even deer are similar enough to be relevant. Pigs just happen to have very similar physiology to us, and the average wild hog is pretty similar dimensionally, too. In other words, if a bullet does xyz in an average sized pig, it's a pretty safe bet that it would do similar things in a well built person.
That is exactly what my friends and myself picked up on after the first couple of Pigs we took. Plus the Farmers LOVE us helping get rid of them and we love to oblige and pork 😁 so we started using Self Defense Ammo on curtain one's and then we started taking notes. I have learned a lot about bullet performance in the past 7 - 8 years.
That is exactly what my friends and myself picked up on after the first couple of Pigs we took. Plus the Farmers LOVE us helping get rid of them and we love to oblige and pork �� so we started using Self Defense Ammo on curtain one's and then we started taking notes. I have learned a lot about bullet performance in the past 7 - 8 years.
What is your assessments and conclusions?
What is your assessments and conclusions?
I'm guessing a hot .32 acp from a long barrel will stop a pig quick with a proper head shot.
But a pig in a vehicle behind laminated glass will require a bullet with more weight. 😁
What is your assessments and conclusions?
I have the same question. You have our attention.
What is your assessments and conclusions?
9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig and the all mighty 45 ACP kill 100 to 200 lb hog the same. No VooDoo or B.S magic, hit the "Timer's" or "Switches" and Porky goes down, miss and well..
... your dealing with a pissed off pig. 🤣
The big Magnums, 44, 454 Casule, 460 S&W 500 L.B when used with bullets that will actually start expanding inside the pig will actually act like rifle rounds, to a extent. Take a 9mm with a 124gr Gold Dot at +P+ Velocity, I have only seen 1 or 2 weird things happen like a liver having a crack in it when the bullet didn't hit it. Couldn't find any bone or fragment that hit it but it was cracked. I have seen one heart that had a 9BPLE pass within a half inch from it have a split aorta, I believe the heart was full of blood when the bullet passed by and that was how that happened. I have only seen 2 cracked livers with hogs shot with a 357 Sig, I believe it was a fluik like the 9mm, I don't own any thing in 357 Sig, my buddy shot those hogs, not me. With the Big Bore Magnums there is more damage to arias that the bullet doesn't touch, nothing like a rifle but a little bit. The 40 S&W & 45 ACP act just like the Sig and 9mm, PoP! (in the proper spot) Poke, Expand, Penetrate, Leak Important Life Fluids, Dead Hog. 😁
Outta about 600 + hogs shot from 5 ft to about 25 yards, all standing still, and broadside we found out bullets sometimes do strange sh*t but if ya hit the Heart, Lungs, Liver we never lost one and actually with even the "wimpy" 9mm (me being snarky) I, personally have never had a hog go farther than 20 or so yards. Like I said earlier tho, these were 100 to 200 lbs hogs shot from 5ft to 20 or so yards broadside, standing still.
I don't believe in "Knock Down Power" in Duty or Self Defense caliber pistols, they poke holes going in and let important, life sustaining fluid out. Shot placement is King. I have seen strange things when 200 and up grain bullets are hitting things at 1,600 or more fps but I am not smart enough to say what it is other than it's way more damaging than Duty/Self Defense Calibers but not as much as a Rifle, also when it comes to my Daughters life and my life I trust what Doc Roberts says.
Edited to add : I carry a 9mm every day, that is my preferred carry caliber. I thought I would add that & all these Piggy's weren't shot by me. My buddy's and myself are blessed to have some very good people in our lives that let us hunt the way we want to and these pigs were taken by 8 of us. As long as we're helping keep the pig population in check we can hunt with Dogs, Under Feeders, with Rifles or Pistols and at night. We got bored just "Hunting Hogs" and decided to test Self Defense ammo our way. As long as we had a good broadside shot no further than 25 yards, we took it.
I also believe this is VERY IMPORTANT for me to add.
I have ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE kicking in doors and shooting bad people in the face, I never was in the Military, I have never been a LEO the only experience with Self Defense Ammo I have is Hunting, & doing some impromptu bullet "test" , that is it. I have the upmost respect for all the folks that put there life on the line so I get to hunt and enjoy shooting, thank y'all.
I have shot a bit of Blisltstcs Gell to see how Self Defense & Hunting ammo works but I rather Hunt or train to keep my shooting skills up to the best of my ability.
I don't want to derail this, hell I don't know if the tiny bit of information I have about hunting hogs is even important to anyone.
I'm guessing a hot .32 acp from a long barrel will stop a pig quick with a proper head shot.
But a pig in a vehicle behind laminated glass will require a bullet with more weight. 😁
Dont own a 32 acp, hell I don't even own a 380, I have shot a 170 lb hog with a 38 before, after he ran my ass up a tree. 🤣
9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig and the all mighty 45 ACP kill 100 to 200 lb hog the same. No VooDoo or B.S magic, hit the "Timer's" or "Switches" and Porky goes down, miss and well..
... your dealing with a pissed off pig. 🤣
The big Magnums, 44, 454 Casule, 460 S&W 500 L.B when used with bullets that will actually start expanding inside the pig will actually act like rifle rounds, to a extent. Take a 9mm with a 124gr Gold Dot at +P+ Velocity, I have only seen 1 or 2 weird things happen like a liver having a crack in it when the bullet didn't hit it. Couldn't find any bone or fragment that hit it but it was cracked. I have seen one heart that had a 9BPLE pass within a half inch from it have a split aorta, I believe the heart was full of blood when the bullet passed by and that was how that happened. I have only seen 2 cracked livers with hogs shot with a 357 Sig, I believe it was a fluik like the 9mm, I don't own any thing in 357 Sig, my buddy shot those hogs, not me. With the Big Bore Magnums there is more damage to arias that the bullet doesn't touch, nothing like a rifle but a little bit. The 40 S&W & 45 ACP act just like the Sig and 9mm, PoP! (in the proper spot) Poke, Expand, Penetrate, Leak Important Life Fluids, Dead Hog. 😁
Outta about 600 + hogs shot from 5 ft to about 25 yards, all standing still, and broadside we found out bullets sometimes do strange sh*t but if ya hit the Heart, Lungs, Liver we never lost one and actually with even the "wimpy" 9mm (me being snarky) I, personally have never had a hog go farther than 20 or so yards. Like I said earlier tho, these were 100 to 200 lbs hogs shot from 5ft to 20 or so yards broadside, standing still.
I don't believe in "Knock Down Power" in Duty or Self Defense caliber pistols, they poke holes going in and let important, life sustaining fluid out. Shot placement is King. I have seen strange things when 200 and up grain bullets are hitting things at 1,600 or more fps but I am not smart enough to say what it is other than it's way more damaging than Duty/Self Defense Calibers but not as much as a Rifle, also when it comes to my Daughters life and my life I trust what Doc Roberts says.
Edited to add : I carry a 9mm every day, that is my preferred carry caliber. I thought I would add that & all these Piggy's weren't shot by me. My buddy's and myself are blessed to have some very good people in our lives that let us hunt the way we want to and these pigs were taken by 8 of us. As long as we're helping keep the pig population in check we can hunt with Dogs, Under Feeders, with Rifles or Pistols and at night. We got bored just "Hunting Hogs" and decided to test Self Defense ammo our way. As long as we had a good broadside shot no further than 25 yards, we took it.
Thanks for the report.
Any ball ammo? Flat points? Calibers under 9mm? .38 Special? .380?
Thanks for the report.
Any ball ammo? Flat points? Calibers under 9mm? .38 Special? .380?
No Sir, no hard ball. One 38 Special, a hard cast Simi Wadcutter to the ole noggin after the thing ran me up a very small tree. 🤣
Since this was about hard ball I feel like I have screwed this thread up, I apologize again and don't want to derail this.
indianalex01
07-28-21, 19:44
But that is exactly what I did.
Why.
Because all handguns SUCK for shooting people!
45 v 9mm is just as silly an argument in 2021 as saying a certain type of color of hair make a woman better at sex.
You can take a man that has tons of women and he can't tell you which color of hair makes the sex more enjoyable. Why because the blond he had sex with yesterday was terrible, but the black haired girl was great. But two days later it might be they both were terrible but the red haired girl rocked his world.
Gun fights with pistols are the same.
So my life has taught me the formula I shared about how we can't know anything about something that is impossible to prove. Which brought me to my economics of motion, the longer the gun can go bang and the faster I can accurately make it go bang the better.
9mm fits this bill in my mind. Easier to shoot fast and accurate and in my CZ I can have 22 rounds in the pistol.
Darn Yani, I like Sex as much as anyone but you argument makes absolutely no sense. If you are horny then keep it to yourself but let’s keep it to guns…lmao. It was funny though.
I also believe this is VERY IMPORTANT for me to add.
I have ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE kicking in doors and shooting bad people in the face, I never was in the Military, I have never been a LEO the only experience with Self Defense Ammo I have is Hunting, & doing some impromptu bullet "test" , that is it. I have the upmost respect for all the folks that put there life on the line so I get to hunt and enjoy shooting, thank y'all.
I have shot a bit of Blisltstcs Gell to see how Self Defense & Hunting ammo works but I rather Hunt or train to keep my shooting skills up to the best of my ability.
I don't want to derail this, hell I don't know if the tiny bit of information I have about hunting hogs is even important to anyone.
The thing is though that those people who do, mostly, don't have very large sample sizes. Nor do they do autopsies on their kills. Nor do they generally know anything about ballistics. Relying on the experience of doorkickers has been a plague of terrible misinformation that has been horribly abused by the industry to sell stuff to us civilian types. It's been the source of myths regarding the unquestionable greatness of .45, the terribleness of 9mm and 223, and, worst of all, the worship of all things Kalashnikov.
My uncle shoots a decent amount of hogs. Most of them he shoots in traps he built. Most of them he kills with 22s. For wild hog hunting though, he prefers the 308 or 30-06.
In my 14 plus years as a street cop in a major city I have seen a good amount of handgun gunshot wounds. Between homicides, suicides, assaults, and accidents there have been many chances for me to "investigate". Being a gun guy, I pay attention to wound profile and guns and ammo used.
Looking at wounds, watching medical staff treat wounds, and talking with trauma doctors, I (or they) cant tell the difference between wounds from the duty calibers. I can usually notice the difference between a FMJ and a well expanded hollow point though. I believe that has to do with the rounded edges of the ball round not cutting full diameter holes while the expanded hollow points more jagged edges do.
That being said, I would not feel undergunned with a duty caliber using ball ammo. I dont choose to carry ball because I do believe that hollow points provide a real advantage on a gun that already is harder to use effectively and has marginal effectiveness. Ive seen more than a few guys take shots to very critical areas and still be up and mobile for a decent amount of time, even if they died soon after. Hell, my last gunfight I shot a guy in the chest with a 223 hollowpoint which shredded his left lung and went through his heart and the dude barely flinched and charged at me. I thought I missed him. Funny thing is, everyone Ive seen shot with M855 dropped right there... but meth is a hell of a drug.
Back to the my original point, Ive never seen a difference in 45, 40, or 9mm. Truthfully even 38 Special, though the number of shootings are far less. Good hits were good hits and bad hits were bad hits. Ive never heard a trauma doctor say "oh it's okay, it was only a 9mm that went through his liver" or "holy crap this guy is gonna die from this lower leg shot because it was a 45".
I have seen insufficient penetration on the smaller calibers. I have seen 380 hollow points that expanded well and penetrated shallow. 380 ball ammo tends to penetrate deep or have complete pass throughs. The 32s ACP and 25 ACP I havent seen enough of to really get a good consensus on but I do remember them to mostly penetrate on the more shallow side. 22s are wildly inconsistent. Some penetrate deep and some bullets completely shatter on the first bone they hit. My guess is there is the actual bullet used is the major difference there. Which kind does what, I couldnt tell you.
My uncle shoots a decent amount of hogs. Most of them he shoots in traps he built. Most of them he kills with 22s. For wild hog hunting though, he prefers the 308 or 30-06.
In my 14 plus years as a street cop in a major city I have seen a good amount of handgun gunshot wounds. Between homicides, suicides, assaults, and accidents there have been many chances for me to "investigate". Being a gun guy, I pay attention to wound profile and guns and ammo used.
Looking at wounds, watching medical staff treat wounds, and talking with trauma doctors, I (or they) cant tell the difference between wounds from the duty calibers. I can usually notice the difference between a FMJ and a well expanded hollow point though. I believe that has to do with the rounded edges of the ball round not cutting full diameter holes while the expanded hollow points more jagged edges do.
That being said, I would not feel undergunned with a duty caliber using ball ammo. I dont choose to carry ball because I do believe that hollow points provide a real advantage on a gun that already is harder to use effectively and has marginal effectiveness. Ive seen more than a few guys take shots to very critical areas and still be up and mobile for a decent amount of time, even if they died soon after. Hell, my last gunfight I shot a guy in the chest with a 223 hollowpoint which shredded his left lung and went through his heart and the dude barely flinched and charged at me. I thought I missed him. Funny thing is, everyone Ive seen shot with M855 dropped right there... but meth is a hell of a drug.
Back to the my original point, Ive never seen a difference in 45, 40, or 9mm. Truthfully even 38 Special, though the number of shootings are far less. Good hits were good hits and bad hits were bad hits. Ive never heard a trauma doctor say "oh it's okay, it was only a 9mm that went through his liver" or "holy crap this guy is gonna die from this lower leg shot because it was a 45".
I have seen insufficient penetration on the smaller calibers. I have seen 380 hollow points that expanded well and penetrated shallow. 380 ball ammo tends to penetrate deep or have complete pass throughs. The 32s ACP and 25 ACP I havent seen enough of to really get a good consensus on but I do remember them to mostly penetrate on the more shallow side. 22s are wildly inconsistent. Some penetrate deep and some bullets completely shatter on the first bone they hit. My guess is there is the actual bullet used is the major difference there. Which kind does what, I couldnt tell you.
I can't remember which one, but Di Maio said in one of his reports that HPs are easy to spot from the entrance wound, and had the photos to prove it. The skin is very different from the underlying muscle tissue.
The thing is though that those people who do, mostly, don't have very large sample sizes. Nor do they do autopsies on their kills. Nor do they generally know anything about ballistics. Relying on the experience of doorkickers has been a plague of terrible misinformation that has been horribly abused by the industry to sell stuff to us civilian types. It's been the source of myths regarding the unquestionable greatness of .45, the terribleness of 9mm and 223, and, worst of all, the worship of all things Kalashnikov.
Mighty fine points you make 👍
Being new hear I don't want to act like I am more than I am, I'm just a ole Country Boy who lives in the woods with not enough guns 😁
I started out more of a "Outdoors" guy, hunting and fishing. My Dad did a bit of Self Defense Training and what he learned he taught me. When he passed I lost my "Teacher" so to speak. I new I didn't know enough so I have spent the better part of 20 + years seeking out more Self Defense Training. I kept hunting also and had this bright idea about keeping track of hogs shot with basically Self Defense Ammo.
I just don't want anyone to think I am disparaging there experiences. I thrive on learning new things about all this.
🤙
9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig and the all mighty 45 ACP kill 100 to 200 lb hog the same. No VooDoo or B.S magic, hit the "Timer's" or "Switches" and Porky goes down, miss and well..
... your dealing with a pissed off pig. 🤣
The big Magnums, 44, 454 Casule, 460 S&W 500 L.B when used with bullets that will actually start expanding inside the pig will actually act like rifle rounds, to a extent. Take a 9mm with a 124gr Gold Dot at +P+ Velocity, I have only seen 1 or 2 weird things happen like a liver having a crack in it when the bullet didn't hit it. Couldn't find any bone or fragment that hit it but it was cracked. I have seen one heart that had a 9BPLE pass within a half inch from it have a split aorta, I believe the heart was full of blood when the bullet passed by and that was how that happened. I have only seen 2 cracked livers with hogs shot with a 357 Sig, I believe it was a fluik like the 9mm, I don't own any thing in 357 Sig, my buddy shot those hogs, not me. With the Big Bore Magnums there is more damage to arias that the bullet doesn't touch, nothing like a rifle but a little bit. The 40 S&W & 45 ACP act just like the Sig and 9mm, PoP! (in the proper spot) Poke, Expand, Penetrate, Leak Important Life Fluids, Dead Hog. 😁
Outta about 600 + hogs shot from 5 ft to about 25 yards, all standing still, and broadside we found out bullets sometimes do strange sh*t but if ya hit the Heart, Lungs, Liver we never lost one and actually with even the "wimpy" 9mm (me being snarky) I, personally have never had a hog go farther than 20 or so yards. Like I said earlier tho, these were 100 to 200 lbs hogs shot from 5ft to 20 or so yards broadside, standing still.
I don't believe in "Knock Down Power" in Duty or Self Defense caliber pistols, they poke holes going in and let important, life sustaining fluid out. Shot placement is King. I have seen strange things when 200 and up grain bullets are hitting things at 1,600 or more fps but I am not smart enough to say what it is other than it's way more damaging than Duty/Self Defense Calibers but not as much as a Rifle, also when it comes to my Daughters life and my life I trust what Doc Roberts says.
Edited to add : I carry a 9mm every day, that is my preferred carry caliber. I thought I would add that & all these Piggy's weren't shot by me. My buddy's and myself are blessed to have some very good people in our lives that let us hunt the way we want to and these pigs were taken by 8 of us. As long as we're helping keep the pig population in check we can hunt with Dogs, Under Feeders, with Rifles or Pistols and at night. We got bored just "Hunting Hogs" and decided to test Self Defense ammo our way. As long as we had a good broadside shot no further than 25 yards, we took it.
Good report and in line with what you'd expect really.
Darn Yani, I like Sex as much as anyone but you argument makes absolutely no sense. If you are horny then keep it to yourself but let’s keep it to guns…lmao. It was funny though.
That was the point!!!!!
I wanted to approach this whole thread from a different point to try and get people past their dogma.
Yani by the way is a Greek singer .
Good report and in line with what you'd expect really.
Thanks, while new hear I did years of lurking and I have read a bunch of your replies and have learned from them. Wish I had joined earlier tho cos I would have really liked to ask IraqiGunz some questions 😔
Thanks, while new hear I did years of lurking and I have read a bunch of your replies and have learned from them. Wish I had joined earlier tho cos I would have really liked to ask IraqiGunz some questions ��
Glad I was able to supply intel of value.
Thanks for the report Spooky1. IMHO observations about what projectiles do in hogs carries more weight than ballistic gelatin.
This morning, I met with a group of retired old goats for coffee and we discussed this issue. Two of the quorum spent a good part of their career investigating meth labs and had first hand knowledge on how a handgun performs when trying to stop a tweeker. The consensus was that even minor caliber rifles were not effective on a subject cranked up on meth unless you shot a lot of rounds into them. I inquired what the preferred weapon of choice would be should they need to rapidly incapacitate a determined attacker. The answer was "a Ford F250 at 75 mph."
Thanks for the report Spooky1. IMHO observations about what projectiles do in hogs carries more weight than ballistic gelatin.
This morning, I met with a group of retired old goats for coffee and we discussed this issue. Two of the quorum spent a good part of their career investigating meth labs and had first hand knowledge on how a handgun performs when trying to stop a tweeker. The consensus was that even minor caliber rifles were not effective on a subject cranked up on meth unless you shot a lot of rounds into them. I inquired what the preferred weapon of choice would be should they need to rapidly incapacitate a determined attacker. The answer was "a Ford F250 at 75 mph."
No problem, I am glad I am able to share the little things I have experienced.
That is what I see the major difference with how effective all the hog hunting with pistols we did, the hog's were calm, well 95% were calm. With people there is that chemical experimentation alot of bad people do and that can keep them attacking longer with more violence. The hogs get adrenaline dump when hit with a slug but there not tweaking or on crap like PCP. This is why I like to listen to what everyone's experiences are, thank you.
Darn Yani, I like Sex as much as anyone but you argument makes absolutely no sense. If you are horny then keep it to yourself but let’s keep it to guns…lmao. It was funny though.
I like sex more than anyone. 😁
It made sense to me and I liked it! 😄
The consensus was that even minor caliber rifles were not effective on a subject cranked up on meth unless you shot a lot of rounds into them.
What about buckshot?
What about buckshot?
Well, buckshot is certainly "ball ammo"...
A raging meth-head just might not be aware they've received a fatal injury. There may not be a "psychological" stop. Just like an animal.
The "physical" stop takes spinal damage, brain damage, damage to arms and hands so they cant use a weapon, or time to bleed out.
Buckshot is certainly capable of that. #1 buckshot (.30 cal. 40 grs) and larger would be best.
It seems common .40 flat-nosed fmj would tear better holes than 9mm fmj.
Any comments / field experience about that?
My only experience was plinking at 100 yds using a 9mm carbine with fmj and .40 cal carbine with flat-nosed fmj side by side.
The .40 had more drop (6 inches vs 12 or so) but was noticeably louder when it smacked the targets.
vicious_cb
07-29-21, 14:58
It seems common .40 flat-nosed fmj would tear better holes than 9mm fmj.
Any comments / field experience about that?
My only experience was plinking at 100 yds using a 9mm carbine with fmj and .40 cal carbine with flat-nosed fmj side by side.
The .40 had more drop (6 inches vs 12 or so) but was noticeably louder when it smacked the targets.
Flat nose anything is better than FMJ anything. Flat nose will cut tissue vs push it aside and let it rebound.
Flat nose anything is better than FMJ anything. Flat nose will cut tissue vs push it aside and let it rebound.
On the skin yes, in the muscle tissue not really. That said, I've never heard any ME claim to be able to tell the difference between ball and flat nose. Just between ball and JHP.
Flat nose anything is better than FMJ anything. Flat nose will cut tissue vs push it aside and let it rebound.
I have always wondered if semi wad cutter type designs were under valued.
Straight Shooter
07-29-21, 16:18
One of the FEW times I ever watched COPS...Ive never forgotten the episode, many many years ago.
State Trooper, forgot the state...in a Interstate Rest Area. Talking to an OLD man, appeared at least 75 or older, much older, but the poor old dude was a full blown alcoholic and drunk during this event. He wasnt as big around as two of my fingers, couldnt have weighed more than 100lbs.
Was being very belligerent to the Trooper, shit went sideways, Trooper shot this old dude at PBR...almost muzzle contact...with a S&W .45ACP. One shot. The guy literally acts like it never happened.
Looks down at his stomach where the shot was, says "WHY DID YOU SHOOT ME FOR", and stands there smokin a cig. I couldnt believe it.
He NEVER went down, and lived they said.
What about buckshot?
I am not aware of any incidents in our area where a meth addict was shot with buckshot.
I shot a bunny rabbit in the body with a 9mm fmj at fairly close range. He kind of hopped away and was eating grass when I shot him in the head. Totally changed how I feel about handgun effectiveness.
Andy
I have always wondered if semi wad cutter type designs were under valued.
It's all the same at duty caliber energy levels. Even in high power magnums though the bullets tend to tumble anyways, so it's all pretty similar in the end. Especially for duty pistols though it makes the most sense to optimize the bullet for reliable feeding, affordability, and penetration, both in barriers and in terms of staying on a straight path through the target and not breaking apart. I do think there's some evidence that flatter bullets tend to be less prone to veering off course, which is a really serious problem with handguns in general. Even 9mm FMJs which are a best case scenario for velocity and sectional density and everything, they can do some really surprising things according the medical literature, both during and after the fact.
I believe calibur always matters.
I shot a bunny rabbit in the body with a 9mm fmj at fairly close range. He kind of hopped away and was eating grass when I shot him in the head. Totally changed how I feel about handgun effectiveness.
Andy
Had a pet rabbit once when I was younger. He had a tooth get infected and while I was at work dug a hole in the side of his head scratching at it. Not about to spend a bazillion bucks on a damn rabbit in Vet bills I decided to put him down so off to the woods we went.
Only firearm I had at the time was a Ruger super blackhawk in 44mag.
Shot him in the body and... Turned him more or less inside out. There was no 'hopping away' crap.
Not all handguns are as weak as a 9sillimeter...
Had a pet rabbit once when I was younger. He had a tooth get infected and while I was at work dug a hole in the side of his head scratching at it. Not about to spend a bazillion bucks on a damn rabbit in Vet bills I decided to put him down so off to the woods we went.
Only firearm I had at the time was a Ruger super blackhawk in 44mag.
Shot him in the body and... Turned him more or less inside out. There was no 'hopping away' crap.
Not all handguns are as weak as a 9sillimeter...
I am sure a 9mm SWC, HP, or flat nose bullet would have had a different effect.
My Dad has a bunch of trees planted as a wind blocker on his ranch and the bunnies are hard on young trees. We shot a lot of bunny rabbits - normally with a .22, .223 or shotgun.
Andy
Alaskapopo
02-26-22, 22:57
Had a pet rabbit once when I was younger. He had a tooth get infected and while I was at work dug a hole in the side of his head scratching at it. Not about to spend a bazillion bucks on a damn rabbit in Vet bills I decided to put him down so off to the woods we went.
Only firearm I had at the time was a Ruger super blackhawk in 44mag.
Shot him in the body and... Turned him more or less inside out. There was no 'hopping away' crap.
Not all handguns are as weak as a 9sillimeter...
Had a fisherman on the Kenai up here put a brown bear down that charged him with a 9mm and 147 grain hard cast bullets. The 9mm is fine. https://www.liveoutdoors.com/news/240665-alaskan-fishing-guide-kills-grizzly-with-9mm/#/slide/1
I carried a 1911 for years and shot some people with it, when you do your job it tends to do it's job. Having said that I had one incident where 9 rounds of .45acp did not make the terrorist dead right now and it took my brother to shoot said terrorist in the head with his rifle.
I then started to carry a Hi Power, and the same can be said about it. When I did my job, it tended to do it's job.
... if you are at 10 yards or less in a street and your 45 goes to slide lock and despite you sending 9 rounds at your attacker your in a sticky spot. But if you have fire those 9 rounds and the wicket is stick and your pistol still has 9 more rounds before reload your in a better position.
But Yoni, they make today hi cap 45's!
Yes they do.
But can you shoot it as fast and accurate as your 9mm?Just curious (I have never shot anyone with a pistol) -- have you since had to shoot someone with a 9mm pistol nine or more times to stop them?
Just curious.
Just curious (I have never shot anyone with a pistol) -- have you since had to shoot someone with a 9mm pistol nine or more times to stop them?
Just curious.
Yes and no.
In a face to face like the incident with the .45acp, I never had to use so many rounds, so no.
Yes I used a mini Uzi against a terrorist, where I just hosed him. So yes
Had a fisherman on the Kenai up here put a brown bear down that charged him with a 9mm and 147 grain hard cast bullets. The 9mm is fine. https://www.liveoutdoors.com/news/240665-alaskan-fishing-guide-kills-grizzly-with-9mm/#/slide/1
Shoemaker can shoot !!!!!
indianalex01
03-13-22, 22:23
The BS is piling on big time.. I shot a rabbit with a 9mm and he started eating grass after…lmao. Man there is some comical stuff on here tonight
The BS is piling on big time.. I shot a rabbit with a 9mm and he started eating grass after…lmao. Man there is some comical stuff on here tonight
115 ball from a HiPower. I shot him a little far back and he had viscera hanging out of the wound but didn't seem bothered a bit. Maybe it was shock, I don't know. I didn't spend much time observing him before I shot him in the head.
I don't entirely understand what you find unbelievable - a low velocity pistol bullet that passes through soft tissue and does not hit bone creates a low trauma wound unless an artery, heart, or lung is struck.
Andy
Alaskapopo
03-23-22, 00:03
115 ball from a HiPower. I shot him a little far back and he had viscera hanging out of the wound, didn't seem bothered a bit. Maybe it was shock, I don't know. I didn't spend much time observing him before I shot him in the head.
I don't entirely understand what you find unbelievable - a low velocity pistol bullet that passes through soft tissue and does not hit bone creates a low trauma wound unless an artery, heart, or lung is struck.
Andy
I think what he means is it’s a silly comparison. Hence why I shared the story of a professional guide stopping a charging brown bear with a single stack 9mm.
I think what he means is it’s a silly comparison. Hence why I shared the story of a professional guide stopping a charging brown bear with a single stack 9mm.
I can see the silly comparison angle.
Andy
I'm now carrying the Lehigh 65 gr in my 9mm P30SK. Not ball but not a jhp.
I have no idea if the "flutes" do anything but the bullets do cut a good hole, penetrate enough, but not near as much as ball can, shoot to a similar point of aim, feed reliably in my gun, and are very light to carry.
They averaged over 1700 fps for ten shot through that short 3.25 in polygonal barrel.
Would not be my choice if I expected longer range shots, like outdoors with a PCC, but fine for likely encounters with a pistol.
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