View Full Version : CHF Nitride barrel?
Walker_Texasranger
03-27-21, 14:30
What do you guys think about this? I ask, because I had a coupon with Geissele and ordered an 11.5 complete pistol from them. I didn’t realize it but I guess they offer a CHF chrome lined version and a CHF nitride barrel version.
I bought the nitride barrel and didn’t realize because I thought they only did chrome lined for those. I guess this is a new option. Seems like the barrel specs and profile are identical minus the treatment process. They probably can do the nitride for a lot cheaper but both guns cost the same.
I’ll probably be shooting this suppressed so I wonder about heat. This is where chrome lined really shines obviously. Is nitride good enough for suppressed applications?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?229193-10-5%94-CHF-barrel-or-11-5%94-Non-CHF-barrel&p=2938170&highlight=
Criterion claims 15,000-20,000, and they are a very trustworthy source. I just asked the ammo nerd in my shooting group how much he has loaded for me in 2020, and we guesstimate that my primary 11.3” Hanson barrel probably did about 10,000-12,000 since I’ve owned it, and I bought it used on the EE here. Some of that was full auto, and almost all of it was full power 5.56 on par with M855. Suppressed. It is still going, although it’s moved to backup status, and will spend much of the rest of its life unsuppressed. I’ll chrono it again soon.
The real answer is it depends on barrel steel, barrel contour, and rate of fire, but it will cost many thousands of dollars in ammo to find out. About $3,600 in pre-Rona pricing before we MIGHT see a difference. For most shooters, a high-quality nitride barrel will last a very long time.
I’m not seeing a flurry of posts in here about “I wore out my nitride barrel in X number of rounds, and here’s a pic!” I wonder why that might be?
Cannot believe "G" offers a choice of finishes but I guess since they don't make barrels it doesn't matter to them what you are willing to pay for. In the end the life/cost of a barrel is nothing compared to the cost of the ammunition it takes to wear it out. This subject is much about nothing.
Walker_Texasranger
03-27-21, 19:38
Cannot believe "G" offers a choice of finishes but I guess since they don't make barrels it doesn't matter to them what you are willing to pay for. In the end the life/cost of a barrel is nothing compared to the cost of the ammunition it takes to wear it out. This subject is much about nothing.
??? They do make their own barrels. They bought forges and do their own CHF barrels.
But yea, check it out.
https://geissele.com/super-duty-pistol-11-5-5-56mm-nitride-barrel-luna-black-4.html
https://geissele.com/super-duty-pistol-11-5-5-56mm-luna-black.html
gunnerblue
03-27-21, 19:59
What do you guys think about this? I ask, because I had a coupon with Geissele and ordered an 11.5 complete pistol from them. I didn’t realize it but I guess they offer a CHF chrome lined version and a CHF nitride barrel version.
I bought the nitride barrel and didn’t realize because I thought they only did chrome lined for those. I guess this is a new option. Seems like the barrel specs and profile are identical minus the treatment process. They probably can do the nitride for a lot cheaper but both guns cost the same.
I’ll probably be shooting this suppressed so I wonder about heat. This is where chrome lined really shines obviously. Is nitride good enough for suppressed applications?
Chrome lining is done address erosion, not heat. You will spend a fortune in ammo before your nitride barrel is shot out. I wouldn't worry about it.
Reference thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?171789-Melonite-vs-Chrome-Lined-Longevity&p=2154035&highlight=#post2154035\
This is the barrel log for a National Match AR with a nitrided Shilen barrel done by Bamban's Barrel Barn in Austin. Nez (the barrel maker) said it had just shot a very good score at 600 yards, but he wanted it back to see what kind of longevity it might have left.
He said the barrel had minimal throat wear and could probably go another 5,000 rounds.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/barrel_log_jpg-1884762.JPG
Cannot believe "G" offers a choice of finishes but I guess since they don't make barrels
This is one persistent lie you have bud. I see it all over Reddit, didn't expect to see it here. SMH
Fairly sure these are nitrided, but didn't catch it in the video. Does have the bore/chamber hammer forging along with exterior machining.
https://youtu.be/0IX0Gr7olLY
The destructive tests between gov profile 4150 CMV chrome lined and 4150 CMV nitride are inconclusive.
This is kind of like a glock vs 1911 subject.
I can say without reservation that the glock is more practical and more economical choice for a duty weapon. I still love me some 1911.
Nitride is a more practical and economical choice for treating barrels. I still love me some chrome.
Logically (unless you meet some rather narrow criteria) nitride will serve you just as well, last just as long, and save you a little money. It makes some small amount of sense for our military to stay with chrome, but in truth it wouldn't really matter much if chrome lining went the way of the flintlock.
Glock barrels are a nitride treated / Melonite/ Tennifer/ QPQ/ QP sort of process. You don't hear of many issues with them.
A good treated barrel is going to hold up for a very long time.
Walker_Texasranger
03-28-21, 13:57
Glock barrels are a nitride treated / Melonite/ Tennifer/ QPQ/ QP sort of process. You don't hear of many issues with them.
A good treated barrel is going to hold up for a very long time.
Right, but 9mm vs 5.56 ain’t apples to apples. I don’t know of any chrome lined pistol barrels.
The military has been doing them for years in .45 and 9mm.
https://pictures.gunauction.com/6383135634/17106994/20200825210057-1737.jpg
https://pictures.gunauction.com/8448193918/14936191/20180723112050-2818.jpg
Walker_Texasranger
03-28-21, 14:18
The military has been doing them for years in .45 and 9mm.
https://pictures.gunauction.com/6383135634/17106994/20200825210057-1737.jpg
https://pictures.gunauction.com/8448193918/14936191/20180723112050-2818.jpg
Never knew that. Neat.
Coal Dragger
03-28-21, 17:06
I have 2 Daniel Defense CHF nitrided barrels. They don’t offer them anymore though.
Both are very good shooters.
There will be a new source of CHF/Nitrided barrels available soon on the market being sold by your favorite gun retailers. Very nice barrels from the samples I've seen.
Made by Creed Monarch, a company that has a long history in the manufacture of components for the AR15/M16.
There will be a new source of CHF/Nitrided barrels available soon on the market being sold by your favorite gun retailers. Very nice barrels from the samples I've seen.
Made by Creed Monarch, a company that has a long history in the manufacture of components for the AR15/M16.
Are they just getting into barrels?
What else do they manufacture for the AR15/M16
Are they just getting into barrels?
What else do they manufacture for the AR15/M16
My understanding is they just recently purchased their own barrel forge. Creed & Microbest are two local companies who have been OEM manufacturers for Colt and many others in the industry.
vicious_cb
04-01-21, 16:23
Make no mistake, nitriding is pushed because its cheaper/easier to do and is ALMOST as good as chrome. 95% of shooters will not see a difference in chrome vs nitride with the way they shoot. For harsher firing schedules and especially in full-auto applications chrome is still king.
Make no mistake, nitriding is pushed because its cheaper/easier to do and is ALMOST as good as chrome. 95% of shooters will not see a difference in chrome vs nitride with the way they shoot. For harsher firing schedules and especially in full-auto applications chrome is still king.
Kudos! Well put and not pulling any punches. Pretty much sums it up.
I will pass on nitride, UNLESS it is a weapon not offered with a chrome lined barrel then it is better than nothing (i.e. SIG Virtus/MCX or an HK MR556 which you have to send off to get it done).
Kudos! Well put and not pulling any punches. Pretty much sums it up.
I will pass on nitride, UNLESS it is a weapon not offered with a chrome lined barrel then it is better than nothing (i.e. SIG Virtus/MCX or an HK MR556 which you have to send off to get it done).
You have no barrels that do not have a chrome lining on anything?
Make no mistake, nitriding is pushed because its cheaper/easier to do and is ALMOST as good as chrome. 95% of shooters will not see a difference in chrome vs nitride with the way they shoot. For harsher firing schedules and especially in full-auto applications chrome is still king.
Almost as good as chrome... from a durability/heat standpoint. But from a precision standpoint nitriding has the edge. Yes, it’s possible to make a chrome lined barrel precise, but it’s more effort and attention during manufacturing.
From that durability standpoint, I have no skin in the game but would like to see some scientific tests with a statistically significant number of barrels tested for quantifiable measures of performance and effectiveness. So we can positively say how close nitriding is to chrome lining from a durability standpoint. That will most likely never happen though, unless the DoD considers doing the tests.
Leonidas24
04-01-21, 23:45
Almost as good as chrome... from a durability/heat standpoint. But from a precision standpoint nitriding has the edge. Yes, it’s possible to make a chrome lined barrel precise, but it’s more effort and attention during manufacturing.
From that durability standpoint, I have no skin in the game but would like to see some scientific tests with a statistically significant number of barrels tested for quantifiable measures of performance and effectiveness. So we can positively say how close nitriding is to chrome lining from a durability standpoint. That will most likely never happen though, unless the DoD considers doing the tests.
It's been done.
Barrel Life: Nitride, Chrome, and a few other exotic liners discussed (https://wanderingthroughthenight.wordpress.com/2017/06/01/barrel-life-nitride-chrome-and-a-few-other-exotic-liners-discussed/comment-page-1/)
edit: This test compared stellite lined 3-piece barrels to nitride and bare steel, not chrome lined barrels. There was at one point several links within the article to tests comparing chrome lined barrels and nitrided barrels; however, it seems the DOD has removed them from being viewed by the public and are no longer available. Coincidentally, it also appears that most or all of Dr. Gary Roberts' work that was available online via PDF is gone as well, including his presentations on 6.8 SPC.
Mike at SOLGW discusses this topic in his armorers course; according to their research including their own destructive testing of chrome lining being better than nitride is inconclusive in terms of measured performance in accuracy, heat tolerance, barrel life, and predictability of performance.
Further, I'm not convinced that what the mil uses is necessarily the best. If/when something better comes along gov institutions are notoriously extremely slow and reluctant to change.
Kudos! Well put and not pulling any punches. Pretty much sums it up.
I will pass on nitride, UNLESS it is a weapon not offered with a chrome lined barrel then it is better than nothing (i.e. SIG Virtus/MCX or an HK MR556 which you have to send off to get it done).
It is interesting that you and I interpret cb's post completely differently but we both believe the same point to be correct.
I believe nitride barrels are inferior to chrome, but both are valid choices.
Andy
vicious_cb
04-02-21, 14:57
It is interesting that you and I interpret cb's post completely differently but we both believe the same point to be correct.
I believe nitride barrels are inferior to chrome, but both are valid choices.
Andy
That was done on purpose, either you are so hardcore you need the extra wear resistance or just want the peace of mind of having the most durable barrel out there so its chrome or go home.
Conversely you are just a regular guy that doesnt tend to use his AR like a light machine gun all the time where a nitrided barrel is just fine.
This is where 95% of shooters fall including me where Ive barely gone through a case of ammo in the last 6 months vs few years ago I would have only considered chrome because I was going through a case of ammo a month and couldnt be bothered to cool the barrel down between mags.
You have no barrels that do not have a chrome lining on anything?
Nope. All my modern military-style clones have chrome lined barrels.
Exceptions are Garand, Carbine, a Winnie 30.06 1895 repro, and .357 lever gun. Stuff made that way. I must say that Fulton Armory has a chrome lined barrel option for their Carbine and it is interesting but they've got a 4+ month wait.
It is interesting that you and I interpret cb's post completely differently but we both believe the same point to be correct.
I believe nitride barrels are inferior to chrome, but both are valid choices.
Andy
That's pretty much what I was driving at with my last sentence: I'd prefer chrome lining, but I'd take nitride over nothing. If a barrel can be had with chrome lining (like an AR barrel for instance) I have no desire to buy a nitrided version of that same barrel.
Chrome > nitride > untreated/unlined.
That was done on purpose, either you are so hardcore you need the extra wear resistance or just want the peace of mind of having the most durable barrel out there so its chrome or go home.
Conversely you are just a regular guy that doesnt tend to use his AR like a light machine gun all the time where a nitrided barrel is just fine.
This is where 95% of shooters fall including me where Ive barely gone through a case of ammo in the last 6 months vs few years ago I would have only considered chrome because I was going through a case of ammo a month and couldnt be bothered to cool the barrel down between mags.
Pretty much my reasoning. I'm not storming an NVA bunker line in the jungle, shooting at Muj on a distant hillside, or hitting the beach at Normandy. If I can spend a little more $$$ to know I've got a top-quality piece of kit then I have no problem doing so, and in fact prefer to do so.
To others: YMMV. It's a free country, buy what you want! Choice is a good thing.
turnburglar
04-03-21, 09:41
Whats so funny is that if you ask the forums for barrel advice; you get this institutional dogma of an answer. "CHF chrome line or its bunk"
I was talking to a gun builder recently that is looking to get barrels rolled for him by a really good barrel manufacturer. He said he sat down with the manufacturer and asked like every single question about making barrels that he could think of. The two biggest take aways was that:
"CHF has a tremendous initial investment; but once the machine is rolling, barrels are much easier to make. THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT THE PROCESS THAT MAKES A BETTER BARREL. PERIOD."
and that...
"Chrome is a much more imperfect process that is likely to leave cracks and blemishes in the bore. Chrome doesn't even win on a full auto gun either. Not even at environmental resistance. Chrome has zero actual advantages to a nitride barrel. None."
In my own experience my nitride barrels are incredible shooters. I'm not throwing out my CHF chrome tubes; I just don't think they are "top kit" anymore.
Pretty much my reasoning. I'm not storming an NVA bunker line in the jungle, shooting at Muj on a distant hillside, or hitting the beach at Normandy. If I can spend a little more $$$ to know I've got a top-quality piece of kit then I have no problem doing so, and in fact prefer to do so.
To others: YMMV. It's a free country, buy what you want! Choice is a good thing.
Same here and why I do not see the 'need' for chrome on everything.
With very few exceptions most any of my non-chrome AR type barrels are much more accurate than the chrome lined ones.
Whats so funny is that if you ask the forums for barrel advice; you get this institutional dogma of an answer. "CHF chrome line or its bunk"
I was talking to a gun builder recently that is looking to get barrels rolled for him by a really good barrel manufacturer. He said he sat down with the manufacturer and asked like every single question about making barrels that he could think of. The two biggest take aways was that:
"CHF has a tremendous initial investment; but once the machine is rolling, barrels are much easier to make. THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT THE PROCESS THAT MAKES A BETTER BARREL. PERIOD."
and that...
"Chrome is a much more imperfect process that is likely to leave cracks and blemishes in the bore. Chrome doesn't even win on a full auto gun either. Not even at environmental resistance. Chrome has zero actual advantages to a nitride barrel. None."
In my own experience my nitride barrels are incredible shooters. I'm not throwing out my CHF chrome tubes; I just don't think they are "top kit" anymore.
My only question is did that "really good barrel manufacturer" even offer chrome lining as an option?
Same here and why I do not see the 'need' for chrome on everything.
With very few exceptions most any of my non-chrome AR type barrels are much more accurate than the chrome lined ones.
Need or want are two different things. I want it so I'll seek that product out.
I just realized that 3/4 of my small collection of 5.56 AR rifles/carbines have chrome/phosphate barrels. I find it ironic because I really don't care about chrome vs nitride.
Andy
My only question is did that "really good barrel manufacturer" even offer chrome lining as an option?
Criterion does, but they are probably not considered "really good barrels" by demanding shooters. At the same time, really demanding shooters will probably lean toward stainless barrels, which are not easy to chrome line.
Andy
Criterion does, but they are probably not considered "really good barrels" by demanding shooters. At the same time, really demanding shooters will probably lean toward stainless barrels, which are not easy to chrome line.
Andy
Criterion makes some damn good chrome lined M14 barrels; in fact, from what I've read they are superior to 60yo USGI barrels. I wouldn't turn my nose up at an AR barrel from them either. I'm not cheap but I'm easy!
They are also the ones I mentioned earlier that make the chrome lined M1 Carbine barrel, but it's only available through Fulton Armory and they've been out of stock forever.
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