View Full Version : What Are The Most Important Events In Modern Law Enforcement...?
Here's my list, by no means comprehensive.
1986 FBI Miami Shootout - This one finally made everyone wake up and listen to people like Jeff Cooper who had been saying "modern pistol technique" and related firearms since 1945. The deficiencies of the .38 snubnose revolver were dramatically demonstrated along with some very antiquated practices when a FBI team who was prepared to take down strong arm bank robbers with a history of murder found themselves outgunned and outfought with serious consequences. Almost overnight they moved to adopt 10mm handguns and other offensive weapons.
It also had a trickle down effect and local law enforcement who might have previously holstered a S&W Model 28 "Highway Patrolman" or some mid frame .38 revolver began to ditch them for 1911's and the new wonder 9s coming onto the market with magazine capacities of 15 or more. I still remember the first time I saw a Plantation police officer with a 1911 in his holster and how odd it looked...at first.
2. The North Hollywood Bank Robbery and Shootout - The day Heat was tried in real life. A couple Eastern Europeans into weightlifting and guns decided to start strong arming banks with serious firepower and some initial successes became known as the "High Incident Bandits." Then they went after the Bank of America on Laurel Canyon Blvd. Armed with converted Norinco T-56s, HK-91s and Bushmaster XM-15s (demonstrating the futility of the 89 Import Ban and the 86 ban on registering domestic machine guns), a proven willingness to kill anyone who got in their way they took on the LAPD and fought them to a standstill, at least until SWAT arrived.
When it was over the two robbers had fired more than 1,000 rounds and the LAPD armed with 9mm Beretta's and 12 gauge shotguns were held mostly at bay. One shooter was taken down by a SWAT team member armed with an AR-15 and the other died of a self inflicted gun shot when it became obvious he wasn't going to escape. Not long after LAPD was provided surplus M-16s as patrol rifles. Many other PDs took notice and AR-15s gradually became the standard patrol carbine for LEOs.
3. Columbine High School massacre of 1999. Now there had been school shooting before, they go all the way back and at this point the most deadly school attack was still the Bath School Massacre of 1927 where over 40 victims (mostly kids) were killed in a bomb attack by a disgruntled school board treasurer who had lost an election. But kids walking around and indiscriminately targeting other kids was something we didn't see a lot and it was exceptionally chilling. You weren't sure who was gonna get spared and who was gonna get killed and very few got a pass.
Propane / nail bombs set at the doors kept law enforcement and even SWAT outside for hours while these two deranged psycho's went from room to room searching for victims, they eventually killed 13 and injured twice as many. The motives were misunderstood and debated but it eventually came down to they weren't popular and didn't like anyone who was, they were the template for what would later become known as incels. SWAT was criticized for "Sit, Wait And Talk" and dramatic procedural changes followed. While there weren't necessarily and weapon or equipment upgrades that followed, the new policy became "if kids are dying...YOU go in."
4. Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, Parkland Florida 2018. Despite what had been decided at Columbine, this time we actually had an armed LEO detailed to the school who was in place for the very purpose of bringing any kind of school shooting to a swift conclusion. Or at least that was the plan. Unfortunately we had the wrong guy in place and subsequent LEOs who arrived at scene stayed outside to confer with the school resource officer. Accounts differ but it seems that there were as many as 6 LEOs on the property before other LEOs arrived and for the first time entered the building under the assumption that other LEOs were already inside and that they were going in as a supporting role. Lots of heads rolled but I'm not sure anything changed or got fixed. I guess we shall see.
MA2_Navy_Veteran
03-28-21, 03:09
Maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty sure that the detainment & subsequent death (while in custody) of George Floyd should probably be somewhere in that list, if not topping it, but... Meh.
If you have never been to the site of the North Hollywood shootout, you’ll be surprised at how close many of the distances are when viewed from the ground. I remember going there not long after the shootout occurred; from the air, the cameras made it look like vast distances being covered, but when you walk it, it’s far more intimate. Where the two robbers were firing in front of the bank to the parking lot wall across the street is only 120 feet.
With those two banging it as hard as they were, it must have felt like they were across the room, not across the street.
Sent from 80ms in the future
I’d put The Onion Field incident on there.
Over in the “How not to do things” category, I’d say the 1974 SLA Shootout, and the 1985 MOVE siege/bombing in Philly should get serious study.
Police at the SLA house seemed to be “weapons free” in pouring rounds into the house. For God’s sake there were 400 LAPD officers there, plus FBI, LA County Sheriff, and CA Highway Patrol. Between the SLA and seemingly every cop in LA, I’d bet there were more than 5,000 rounds fired.
The MOVE thing is just plain stupid. MOVE were a menace and dangerous to be sure, and needed to be dealt with severely. But who the hell drops actual bombs onto suspect’s hideout? One that has children in it? Oh, did I mention that it was a row house? The police and fire dept seemed like it had never crossed their minds that the WHOLE BLOCK might burn down.
Sent from 80ms in the future
Straight Shooter
03-28-21, 07:46
Rodney "CANT WE ALL JUS GET ALONG" King has to be in top 3 or 4.
WACO...#1.
This should be well known, but isn't. Plenty of video during and after the shooting, including the hugs after, if anyone doubts the details.
https://www.nj.com/monmouth/2015/06/wife_shot_by_neptune_police_officer_dies.html
https://www.nj.com/monmouth/2018/05/ex-cop_who_gunned_down_ex-wife_has_a_700-page_exce.html
gunnerblue
03-28-21, 08:23
September 11th
gunnerblue
03-28-21, 08:25
This should be well known, but isn't. Plenty of video during and after the shooting, including the hugs after, if anyone doubts the details.
https://www.nj.com/monmouth/2015/06/wife_shot_by_neptune_police_officer_dies.html
https://www.nj.com/monmouth/2018/05/ex-cop_who_gunned_down_ex-wife_has_a_700-page_exce.html
Nope.
gunnerblue
03-28-21, 08:28
Here's my list, by no means comprehensive.
1986 FBI Miami Shootout - This one finally made everyone wake up and listen to people like Jeff Cooper who had been saying "modern pistol technique" and related firearms since 1945. The deficiencies of the .38 snubnose revolver were dramatically demonstrated along with some very antiquated practices when a FBI team who was prepared to take down strong arm bank robbers with a history of murder found themselves outgunned and outfought with serious consequences. Almost overnight they moved to adopt 10mm handguns and other offensive weapons.
It also had a trickle down effect and local law enforcement who might have previously holstered a S&W Model 28 "Highway Patrolman" or some mid frame .38 revolver began to ditch them for 1911's and the new wonder 9s coming onto the market with magazine capacities of 15 or more. I still remember the first time I saw a Plantation police officer with a 1911 in his holster and how odd it looked...at first.
2. The North Hollywood Bank Robbery and Shootout - The day Heat was tried in real life. A couple Eastern Europeans into weightlifting and guns decided to start strong arming banks with serious firepower and some initial successes became known as the "High Incident Bandits." Then they went after the Bank of America on Laurel Canyon Blvd. Armed with converted Norinco T-56s, HK-91s and Bushmaster XM-15s (demonstrating the futility of the 89 Import Ban and the 86 ban on registering domestic machine guns), a proven willingness to kill anyone who got in their way they took on the LAPD and fought them to a standstill, at least until SWAT arrived.
When it was over the two robbers had fired more than 1,000 rounds and the LAPD armed with 9mm Beretta's and 12 gauge shotguns were held mostly at bay. One shooter was taken down by a SWAT team member armed with an AR-15 and the other died of a self inflicted gun shot when it became obvious he wasn't going to escape. Not long after LAPD was provided surplus M-16s as patrol rifles. Many other PDs took notice and AR-15s gradually became the standard patrol carbine for LEOs.
3. Columbine High School massacre of 1999. Now there had been school shooting before, they go all the way back and at this point the most deadly school attack was still the Bath School Massacre of 1927 where over 40 victims (mostly kids) were killed in a bomb attack by a disgruntled school board treasurer who had lost an election. But kids walking around and indiscriminately targeting other kids was something we didn't see a lot and it was exceptionally chilling. You weren't sure who was gonna get spared and who was gonna get killed and very few got a pass.
Propane / nail bombs set at the doors kept law enforcement and even SWAT outside for hours while these two deranged psycho's went from room to room searching for victims, they eventually killed 13 and injured twice as many. The motives were misunderstood and debated but it eventually came down to they weren't popular and didn't like anyone who was, they were the template for what would later become known as incels. SWAT was criticized for "Sit, Wait And Talk" and dramatic procedural changes followed. While there weren't necessarily and weapon or equipment upgrades that followed, the new policy became "if kids are dying...YOU go in."
4. Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, Parkland Florida 2018. Despite what had been decided at Columbine, this time we actually had an armed LEO detailed to the school who was in place for the very purpose of bringing any kind of school shooting to a swift conclusion. Or at least that was the plan. Unfortunately we had the wrong guy in place and subsequent LEOs who arrived at scene stayed outside to confer with the school resource officer. Accounts differ but it seems that there were as many as 6 LEOs on the property before other LEOs arrived and for the first time entered the building under the assumption that other LEOs were already inside and that they were going in as a supporting role. Lots of heads rolled but I'm not sure anything changed or got fixed. I guess we shall see.
In the vein of the FBI shootout and the focus on firepower, the development of modern JHP and/or bonded ammo is significant and almost entirely driven by law enforcement requirements. Usually it seems that these sort of things trickle down from the military which is still issuing predominately ball ammo (I believe).
john armond
03-28-21, 09:18
Texas tower...the birth of SWAT.
I’d put The Onion Field incident on there.
Over in the “How not to do things” category, I’d say the 1974 SLA Shootout, and the 1985 MOVE siege/bombing in Philly should get serious study.
Police at the SLA house seemed to be “weapons free” in pouring rounds into the house. For God’s sake there were 400 LAPD officers there, plus FBI, LA County Sheriff, and CA Highway Patrol. Between the SLA and seemingly every cop in LA, I’d bet there were more than 5,000 rounds fired.
The MOVE thing is just plain stupid. MOVE were a menace and dangerous to be sure, and needed to be dealt with severely. But who the hell drops actual bombs onto suspect’s hideout? One that has children in it? Oh, did I mention that it was a row house? The police and fire dept seemed like it had never crossed their minds that the WHOLE BLOCK might burn down.
Sent from 80ms in the future
The SLA was probably the first major application of SWAT and I can't think of a better candidate.
ChattanoogaPhil
03-28-21, 14:03
1988 - Glock came to America.
Lots of answers to this question, the top answers really depend on whose perspective you're lookng from. All of the answers could be true, but most wouldn't be on my list.
As a 30 year cop I'd have to put add in car cameras, body cams, 24 hour news cycle that drives the nations opinions whether correct or not, modern body armor, communications capabilities, and a few more.
It has been interesting watching the evolution of patrol officer weapons.
In the 70s HPD had a policy that required all new officers to train on the .357 Magnum. Officers had to buy their own pistol. Most all bought the S&W .357 with four inch barrel.
When an officer had a year's service, he could go to a different pistol. Almost all kept their S&W .357; it was what they had and had trained with, and it worked for them. Some wanted more "stopping power" and went up to the Smith Model 29 in .44 Magnum. Some went with the Colt 1911 in .45. A few, anticipating the future, packed the Browning Hi-Power for more ammo capacity.
Then the policy changed. Officers still bought their own guns, but the could choose from a list of semi-autos: Glock, Sig, Smith, Beretta, HK as long as it was in .40 caliber.
Now they have a new policy for new recruits. Everybody has to have the same weapon: Glock 17 with a light and a red dot. That doesn't change when the officer gains experience; it will be the approved weapon for all officers. Older officers are grandfathered in.
Averageman
03-28-21, 21:08
I would guess DNA research would be less Law Enforcement and more in the realm of the Courts, but it's made a big difference.
I can see how a cell phone might be pretty handy. Hell think about something as simple as boots or shoes, bad footgear is pretty much a thing of the past. Body armor is better, Night Vision, even flashlights are 100% better now.
If you go from 1980 to 2020, the list of improvements is never ending.
1988 - Glock came to America.
Funny, I have a 1986 date code.
It has been interesting watching the evolution of patrol officer weapons.
In the 70s HPD had a policy that required all new officers to train on the .357 Magnum. Officers had to buy their own pistol. Most all bought the S&W .357 with four inch barrel.
When an officer had a year's service, he could go to a different pistol. Almost all kept their S&W .357; it was what they had and had trained with, and it worked for them. Some wanted more "stopping power" and went up to the Smith Model 29 in .44 Magnum. Some went with the Colt 1911 in .45. A few, anticipating the future, packed the Browning Hi-Power for more ammo capacity.
Then the policy changed. Officers still bought their own guns, but the could choose from a list of semi-autos: Glock, Sig, Smith, Beretta, HK as long as it was in .40 caliber.
Now they have a new policy for new recruits. Everybody has to have the same weapon: Glock 17 with a light and a red dot. That doesn't change when the officer gains experience; it will be the approved weapon for all officers. Older officers are grandfathered in.
Guns are a fun topic but almost totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of Law Enforcement.
Everybody talks about them and fetishizes them but honestly it’s not nearly that big of a deal compared to the other stuff one uses in a day. It’s fun to discuss the different eras, but it’s a total non-issue otherwise.
Obviously, there is a place for a weapon but any time it mattered; I never really thought about the gun other than “is it loaded?” Thuggy doesn’t care either. And really if it didn’t wig out the normies and heterosexuals; I’d carry around a super short with 64gr soft points to every call at the trap.
I mean some guns are iconic like the Model 19, the 4506, and all but really a handgun is a piss poor way to kill someone.
I believe I could seriously and unironically tote a 43X as my sidearm and not really be out of anything as long as I have The Bitch in the rack.
I would also argue vehemently that 6.8 SPC was ahead of its time but they kept that round down.
I mean they don’t mind trying to sell these lame rounds but we can’t have 6.8. Blah.
Honestly a lot of the stuff that gets the most attention is a young, ignorant man’s game. Believe me, I would love to relive the Romance Days of Marlboro Reds, Red Bull, Code Red Mount Dew, and bulldogging about. But we all gotta get older. And those Beau Geste days are gone and never to return.
But what a time it was.
Business_Casual
03-29-21, 06:30
Not my lane, but ending qualified immunity will change policing more profoundly than pistol rounds or magazines.
Not my lane, but ending qualified immunity will change policing more profoundly than pistol rounds or magazines.
It most certainly will. Somebody will come eventually. Maybe. Who knows?
I won’t.
gunnerblue
03-29-21, 08:11
Not my lane, but ending qualified immunity will change policing more profoundly than pistol rounds or magazines.
More like end it, at least in its current recognizable form.
I think the Dallas mass shooting deserves mention simply for the fact that DPD used a robot with a bomb attached to kill the suspect. First time that’s happened to my knowledge
I'm gonna guess that the Miranda decision and the like have a far more dramatic effect on day to day law enforcement than weapon or tactics changes. Not an LEO, but the guys I know scratch tickets and do rather uneventful cuff and stuffs every day. Shoot em ups and stack parties are more rare.
Norco Bank Robbery 1980!!!
An amazing story how the robbers are armed to the teeth with military grade weapons and LEO had ONE AR they had confiscated and had to go find it! Mostly trying to fight them on a 50+ mile chase with .38's and shotguns!
Wild story! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norco_shootout
How about the fairly recent Dorner murders and shootouts. I'm not sure what we might learn. Maybe that the police should be more careful to identify their target before opening up. IDK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt
How about the fairly recent Dorner murders and shootouts. I'm not sure what we might learn. Maybe that the police should be more careful to identify their target before opening up. IDK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt
That was certainly something. I’d say it was a sh** show, but Dorner was a motivated and capable opponent.
It’s one thing when LAPD SIS and SWAT go looking for someone, but when you unleash the 3rd largest police department in the US, throw in LA County Sheriff, plus all the other smaller departments from the mini cities in the county, and that’s a lot of over-caffeinated folks who are totally untrained in hard core felon interdiction rolling around on edge. Throwing everyone with a gun at a police situation just isn’t going to be great.
Sent from 80ms in the future
I honestly believe the arrest, holding without bail, and future prosecution (?) of the unarmed "insurgents" will usher in a new era of law enforcement in the US.
Andy
How about the fairly recent Dorner murders and shootouts. I'm not sure what we might learn. Maybe that the police should be more careful to identify their target before opening up. IDK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt
Yeah, that one demonstrated some inadequacies. But I think a lot of of was LAPD specific. Same with the King Riots, had they happened someplace else, it might have been different, better.
KenpoCop822
03-30-21, 00:15
Newhall shooting, wherein a CHP officer was found dead with spent brass in his pocket from reloading a revolver. This due to a training scar because range staff didn't want to have to pick up brass at the end of a range session.
It had a profound impact on the way officers are trained.
titsonritz
03-30-21, 00:16
Texas tower...the birth of SWAT.
L.A. was already working in it because of the violene of the '60s like the Watts Riot.
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/austin/Tower-Shooting-Anniversary/2016/07/30/the-ut-shooting-and-the-development-of-swat-response
1954, Indianapolis was early realization for a "riot squad".
https://www.policemag.com/338658/the-birth-and-evolution-of-the-swat-unit
WillieThom
03-30-21, 00:55
Newhall shooting, wherein a CHP officer was found dead with spent brass in his pocket from reloading a revolver. This due to a training scar because range staff didn't want to have to pick up brass at the end of a range session.
It had a profound impact on the way officers are trained.
I’ve read different. And although CHP did stop the whole “pocketing their brass” thing after this incident, I don’t think any of the officers were actually found with brass in their pockets.
I'd say the invention of body worn cameras.
Somebody needs to do a study to determine the effect on corruption, tune-ups, illegal searches, use of force, and the like.
titsonritz
03-30-21, 02:40
I'd say the invention of body worn cameras.
Somebody needs to do a study to determine the effect on corruption, tune-ups, illegal searches, use of force, and the like.
I have a feeling such a study would vastly show that cameras protect good cops from bad allegations made by shitheads more than bad cops engaged in the acts you've listed. But body cams do provide endless training videos.
I have a feeling such a study would vastly show that cameras protect good cops from bad allegations made by shitheads more than bad cops engaged in the acts you've listed. But body cams do provide endless training videos.
Agreed. I wish there would be an automatic criminal charge for lying on LEOs when it’s backed up by the body cameras everyone is pushing departments to get
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Agreed. I wish there would be an automatic criminal charge for lying on LEOs when it’s backed up by the body cameras everyone is pushing departments to get
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I'd be ok with that if it went both ways.
I'd be ok with that if it went both ways.
But that's called an investigative technique, and while it's is sorta bullshit...it's also sorta true.
The important thing to remember is when talking to cops, they are mostly deciding if they need to ticket or arrest you or not.
But that's called an investigative technique, and while it's is sorta bullshit...it's also sorta true.
The important thing to remember is when talking to cops, they are mostly deciding if they need to ticket or arrest you or not.
While I am not really in favor of a cop lying to people while talking to them, he said "lying on LEOs when it’s backed up by the body cameras" which I took to mean a scenario where someone says the cop repeatedly punched them, burned them with a cigarette, and so on while the video shows nothing of the sort.
It is not unusual for police descriptions of events to differ, sometimes wildly differ, from what actually happened that a camera observes.
KenpoCop822
03-30-21, 12:00
I’ve read different. And although CHP did stop the whole “pocketing their brass” thing after this incident, I don’t think any of the officers were actually found with brass in their pockets.
Interesting. Did some digging and discovered evidence points to that they did not do that. It also appears that, in the past some have. Massad Ayoob documents this in an American Handgunner article.
It doesn't surprise me. LEOs are often told / taught things that are often outdated, and hardly ever corrected. Been doing this job for 20 years, and the myths abound.
I'd say the invention of body worn cameras.
Somebody needs to do a study to determine the effect on corruption, tune-ups, illegal searches, use of force, and the like.
Only if the study included how many more officers are being hurt/killed by hesitating to use justifiable force because they know the camera is on. Notice I did not say deadly force. I see more and more videos where the officer should have gone hands on or gone to pepper spray or a taser. Instead, the dirtbag was allowed to get the upper hand and either hurting or killing officers.
This is the BEST modern example I have seen. These officers kissed this murderers @$$ because they were on camera. They allowed him a chance to get the upper hand. He did. An officer is DEAD. Had the cameras not been rolling, this dirtbag would have been snatched up without incident.
R.I.P. Officer.
https://nypost.com/2020/09/15/police-release-footage-of-fatal-shooting-of-tulsa-police-officer/
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-30-21, 12:48
2. The North Hollywood Bank Robbery and Shootout - The day Heat was tried in real life. A couple Eastern Europeans into weightlifting and guns decided to start strong arming banks with serious firepower and some initial successes became known as the "High Incident Bandits." Then they went after the Bank of America on Laurel Canyon Blvd. Armed with converted Norinco T-56s, HK-91s and Bushmaster XM-15s (demonstrating the futility of the 89 Import Ban and the 86 ban on registering domestic machine guns), a proven willingness to kill anyone who got in their way they took on the LAPD and fought them to a standstill, at least until SWAT arrived.
When it was over the two robbers had fired more than 1,000 rounds and the LAPD armed with 9mm Beretta's and 12 gauge shotguns were held mostly at bay. One shooter was taken down by a SWAT team member armed with an AR-15 and the other died of a self inflicted gun shot when it became obvious he wasn't going to escape. Not long after LAPD was provided surplus M-16s as patrol rifles. Many other PDs took notice and AR-15s gradually became the standard patrol carbine for LEOs.
I hate to nitpick, but.....
Larry Phillips wasn't Eastern European, he was born and raised in LA.
The invention of this little guy
65512
Only if the study included how many more officers are being hurt/killed by hesitating to use justifiable force because they know the camera is on. Notice I did not say deadly force. I see more and more videos where the officer should have gone hands on or gone to pepper spray or a taser. Instead, the dirtbag was allowed to get the upper hand and either hurting or killing officers.
This is the BEST modern example I have seen. These officers kissed this murderers @$$ because they were on camera. They allowed him a chance to get the upper hand. He did. An officer is DEAD. Had the cameras not been rolling, this dirtbag would have been snatched up without incident.
R.I.P. Officer.
https://nypost.com/2020/09/15/police-release-footage-of-fatal-shooting-of-tulsa-police-officer/
And had the camera not been rolling this dirt bag would still be sending countless victims off to prison.
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/nation/2019/07/10/former-jackson-county-deputy-zach-wester-arrested-drug-planting-probe/1693260001/
WillieThom
03-30-21, 17:39
I like anecdotes.
Averageman
03-30-21, 17:44
If they don't do GPS tracking yet, I bet when things get spicier they start.
If they don't do GPS tracking yet, I bet when things get spicier they start.
One of the pieces of evidence in the OKC Holtzclaw serial rapist case.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Holtzclaw
Handheld Radios. No longer were you out on your own. Backup was a key click away. No more looking for a Call Box.
I think the Dallas mass shooting deserves mention simply for the fact that DPD used a robot with a bomb attached to kill the suspect. First time that’s happened to my knowledge
Dont forget Philly PD dropped explosives on MOVE home and burned down the whole block.
If they don't do GPS tracking yet, I bet when things get spicier they start.
We have had them on our units for many years. We now have them on our portable radios which is very accurate.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Averageman
03-31-21, 08:55
We have had them on our units for many years. We now have them on our portable radios which is very accurate.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
That's a good thing glad to hear it.
Averageman
03-31-21, 08:56
We have had them on our units for many years. We now have them on our portable radios which is very accurate.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
That's a good thing glad to hear it.
Averageman
03-31-21, 16:26
You know this thread had me wondering, "When did it start to go sideways for the Police?"
I think it was Rodney King.
Averageman
03-31-21, 16:26
You know this thread had me wondering, "When did it start to go sideways for the Police?"
I think it was Rodney King.
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