View Full Version : Yup, people are getting dumber
In a study with the results that will surprise no one here:
For most of history, humans got smarter. That's now reversing.
There's a new study out of Norway that indicates our—well, technically, their—IQs are shrinking, to the tune of about seven IQ points per generation.
Scientists from Norway's Ragnar Frisch Centre for Economic Research analyzed 730,000 IQ tests given to Norwegian men before compulsory military service from 1970 to 2009, and this is their conclusion.
If the trend continues—indeed, if it's even real—that means about 10 generations from now, we'll see a slow decline that actually means IQs at the top end will drop from >130 ("Very Superior")," to <69 ("Extremely Low"). Kinda terrifying, isn't it?
It's a reversal of what's known as the Flynn effect, named after the psychologist who first noticed that IQs increased in at least the first part of the 20th century.
There are a host of potential explanations that are still being explored, all the way from environmental problems and diet to lack of exercise and staring at screens.
But one that actually seems a more genuine culprit is this: IQ tests are designed to rely more upon rote memorization whereas schools and even electronic devices used by students rely on the ability to find things via Google and other means, which may indicate there is no real change in intelligence but rather in how younger people learn these days.
https://bigthink.com/brandon-weber/every-10-years-humans-got-smarter-thats-now-reversing
ChattanoogaPhil
03-28-21, 14:23
I guess it depends on the topic. Kids today are far more knowledgeable about things like transgender than I was at their age. I was so ignorant I thought there were only two genders, male and female. Last I read there's now about 60 or more. That's a lot to remember. Google.
Jeez, just cause I'm stuck home due to injury and posting more there no reason to get all personal about it. ;)
Inkslinger
03-28-21, 14:28
There’s a great documentary about this.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/
In a study with the results that will surprise no one here:
For most of history, humans got smarter. That's now reversing.
When you plug your ears because someone / anyone has a different viewpoint than yours... Yes.
You will get dumber.
I swear, Idiocracy wasn’t a movie- it was a time travelers memoirs of a trip into the future.
Peoples feelings and emotions became more important than truth, wisdom and the pursuit of knowledge a long time ago, what did everyone expect?
I won’t even begin to discuss some of the major root issues and correlations to other declines we’ve been seeing, because you know peoples feels will get all ouchy.
While certain demographics have to work, pay taxes, and postpone children until their 30s or 40s (if ever) other demographics are government funded to keep shitting out children nobody wanted or asked for
BoringGuy45
03-28-21, 15:57
The problem is that people are being educated beyond their intelligence. There is SOOOO much to learn, invent, and develop in this world...in this universe. We haven't even uncovered 1% of life's facts. But people aren't being taught to learn and think anymore; people are taught to parrot and obey.
titsonritz
03-28-21, 16:07
There’s a great documentary about this.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/
Beat me to it.
Business_Casual
03-28-21, 16:17
I swear, Idiocracy wasn’t a movie- it was a time travelers memoirs of a trip into the future.
Why do people think it is about the future?
If that's what they can document in Norway, what do you suppose results would look like CONUS?
Inkslinger
03-28-21, 17:39
Why do people think it is about the future?
Have you seen the movie? The guy was frozen by the military and wakes up 500 years in the future.
If that's what they can document in Norway, what do you suppose results would look like CONUS?
I thought same. Scary. Seen vids where adults could not find the US on a world map level scary.
thepatriot2705
03-28-21, 18:03
Have you seen the movie? The guy was frozen by the military and wakes up 500 years in the future.
I saw the movie a couple months ago. IQ is declining is most developed nations. Hasn’t quite happened in the US, but we are getting dumber and the great filter is real
Huge problem I do think is the modern diet of crap industrial seed oils the over processed grain and other crap that are some decline to our health as we are also the most unhealthy we have ever been which for sure makes our whole body and brain sick and not getting proper nutrients
The super lazy not hard working etc... to many (not all men) are weak pathetic wimps
the push of being EDUCATED in college and yet you see those folks going to college asking college folk as about basic history and they are clueless but they know who is trendy and what they are doing
I do think Wall-e movie and the fat people on the conveyor belt with a 80 oz soft drink is what we are going to become IF we get that far :)
Yes smarter with current technology building the phones we have and tech we have is insane !!!
but the old joke want to make your car carjack proof get a manual !
Try to fix a kitchen table clueless instead go to Ikea and buy another pressboard laminated piece of crap to last a few more years
Not all of course but many
Now the recent thread on IQ and 3rd world countries !
I go against that as my time in the Caribbean most have a 4th grade education but they all live very well in many ways they all know how to build a house fix electric figure out to keep things going with very very very little and garden or fish or hunt and fresh as water that can be and wash clothes and the list goes on and on they live where you drop a modern smart college kid and they would most likely die but if you drop one of those dudes in a city they would do OK most likely washing dished or working at a garage or working as a handyman etc...
IMHO the whole IQ thing is over rated vs just having good basic ability of life things is what we are lacking and we need to get rid of this IQ idiocy as it does not matter or relate to how smart someone is !
Take the best tech masters that make insane stuff and the 6th grade drop out gear head who has been into cars his whole life who would you want to fix your car ! Who would you want to help you with tech ?
Does not matter what their IQ is matters what they can do and if they do it well
A large part of the problem.
https://despair.com/products/propaganda
kaiservontexas
03-28-21, 19:12
I heard once that brains are shrinking. What I heard said nothing about this going on since the Stone Age; however, the only articles I am coming across states that has been doing such since the Stone Age.
Anyway, here is a link to an NPR article:
https://www.npr.org/2011/01/02/132591244/our-brains-are-shrinking-are-we-getting-dumber
If that is not a link you wish to click a search will yield more results.
I do not know how this correlates, and Honu has a very good point. I have known many folks from Africa, and none of them were idiots; yet, they did lack a formal education. One example is the fact they could all speak their native languages, French, Spanish, and English, and sometimes even more languages, a true polyglot some of them were; so, I would not say they were dumb. I also had fun with my mother's former caregivers. I would tell them about this or that, and they would be amazed about whatever it was we were discussing. Typically I was fielding questions about things they saw on tv. One brought her daughter over for history help. So much for the bell curve . . .
I believe standardized tests have their pros and cons, but those exams fall to cover every little thing about every single person.
Beat me to it.
Beat me to it also.
Business_Casual
03-29-21, 06:27
Have you seen the movie? The guy was frozen by the military and wakes up 500 years in the future.
I used sarcasm.
hotrodder636
03-29-21, 06:43
Sad for sure. But I think if a world wide study were to take place we would find that it is not isolated to Norway.
IQ tests are designed to rely more upon rote memorization whereas schools and even electronic devices used by students rely on the ability to find things...
https://bigthink.com/brandon-weber/every-10-years-humans-got-smarter-thats-now-reversing
No, IQ tests are not like being on Jeopardy or taking an open book test.
IQ tests are designed to measure problem solving abilities.
No, IQ tests are not like being on Jeopardy or taking an open book test.
IQ tests are designed to measure problem solving abilities.
Yep. They are the best metric we have for gauging overall comprehensive cognitive ability.
People hate IQ tests because of the findings, well come up with something better! Hint- they've been trying and they haven't thus far so IQ test is the best metric right now that we have.
That doesn't mean someone with an IQ of 90 cannot survive and grow their own food and understand things with relative complexity- it just means their cognitive ability and problem solving skills are limited and not on the same level as others.
That also doesn't mean that someone with an IQ of 160 will automatically be a success in life either. They may struggle to even communicate with others on a daily basis and fit in socially to even be a part of society.
Humans are capable of a lot, an IQ is not the deciding factor of how well they do in life or even who they are.
It does give a great metric to use for many purposes.
I'm kinda suspicious of IQ tests. Oddly enough, because I have taken a few (employer requested- WTF?) and scored VERY high. Can't recall numbers, but like 99th percentile high. Thing is I know I ain't a moron, but I ain't in the top 10% either let alone the top 1%. So folks need to take their individual results with a TRAINLOAD of salt.
I'm kinda suspicious of IQ tests. Oddly enough, because I have taken a few (employer requested- WTF?) and scored VERY high. Can't recall numbers, but like 99th percentile high. Thing is I know I ain't a moron, but I ain't in the top 10% either let alone the top 1%. So folks need to take their individual results with a TRAINLOAD of salt.
Most employer "IQ" tests are not actual standardized IQ tests, but mini cognitive tests. That being said, you could be in the top 1%, but not be a "genius" so to speak. Just means you scored higher than 99% of the population.
Genius level intellect is about .25% of the population- that's anyone who scores 140 or higher on their IQ test, not a percentile test.
You'd have to take a real IQ test to understand your score, that is NOT based on a percentile.
Oh, Jesus lawdy, IQ tests.....
There have been so many issues with 'old' IQ tests regarding income, racial, and ethnic bias. Not on purpose, but those tests were trialed with mostly middle class white kids and adults. I think they have redesigned to take those biases out so it's more "normal" across multiple populations. I do not think I am a genius, but apparently the MAT thinks otherwise. If you score above a certain grade on the MAT, you get an invite to join MENSA. This was...2010. I threw away the invite. I thought the MAT was pretty easy; no math. I suck donkey balls at math.
Many high-performing employers (and SOCOM units) are discarding the notion for IQ and instead looking at EQ, or emotional intelligence. A 1995 paper by Daniel Goleman found that people with the highest levels of intelligence outperform those with average IQs 20% of the time, while people with average IQs outperform those with high IQs 70% of the time.
Results of IQ tests do need to be taken in context, and are generally meaningless.
thepatriot2705
03-29-21, 19:09
I have a side hustle at an auto parts store. Young girl just called up. “My brake light came up, what does that mean?”
Me: you need brake fluid ASAP, stop as a gas station and get some. Girl: I don’t know where to put it. Me: you can google it. Girl: I don’t wanna **** up my car. Me: there’s a cap that says brake fluid.
People have zero interest in learning how to do anything despite having a smart phone connected to the internet
Straight Shooter
03-29-21, 21:58
I raise hell about the under 35 bunch, because..well its been covered here enough.
But when I see an old fat fart..standing in an open doorway of a supermarket..BACK TURNED....POKIN ON A FVCKIN CELLPHONE WHILST A FVCKIN MUSLIM TRIES TO KILL EVERY WHITE PERSON HE CAN SEE.. while ANOTHER MORON videos the dead an injured instead of trying to help or render some form of aid....I think we are ALL screwed ducks.
Sad for sure. But I think if a world wide study were to take place we would find that it is not isolated to Norway.
Once again California and DC would lead the world.
So here is my best result from what is considered a legit IQ test.
https://i.imgur.com/EPYw11s.jpg
Typically I score about 10 points lower. That said, most IQ tests are nothing more than elaborate pattern recognition so once you realize that, your IQ magically goes up 20 points. I have seen people who score in the 130-140 range who I wouldn't trust to walk my dog and I've seen people in the 90-110 range who seem a lot smarter than me.
It really is just a single metric of specialized intelligence. It doesn't mean you are a genius, talented or successful. It also seems to be something where some people just have a easy command of, like speaking multiple languages fluently when other very intelligent people struggle to just get by with a Berlitz book. I know a few people who barely got out of high school but can speak six languages fluently and effortlessly. Are they smarter than me? In one respect certainly, in others not so much.
So here is my best result from what is considered a legit IQ test.
https://i.imgur.com/EPYw11s.jpg
Typically I score about 10 points lower. That said, most IQ tests are nothing more than elaborate pattern recognition so once you realize that, your IQ magically goes up 20 points. I have seen people who score in the 130-140 range who I wouldn't trust to walk my dog and I've seen people in the 90-110 range who seem a lot smarter than me.
It really is just a single metric of specialized intelligence. It doesn't mean you are a genius, talented or successful. It also seems to be something where some people just have a easy command of, like speaking multiple languages fluently when other very intelligent people struggle to just get by with a Berlitz book. I know a few people who barely got out of high school but can speak six languages fluently and effortlessly. Are they smarter than me? In one respect certainly, in others not so much.
I knew someone with an IQ of 186. He lived in his parents basement and ended up blowing off a finger with a flint lock pistol he ordered as a kit in the mail. Supposedly, Richard Feynman claimed to have an IQ of 125. I don't think the IQ test is worthless per se, and there is no doubt trends to how it applies to stats vs individuals have some value, but I personally put little stock in it. Most I have known with very high IQ's were savant types, and could memorize say bio chem charts all day, but could not tie their shoes and such.
titsonritz
03-31-21, 12:43
I knew someone with an IQ of 186. He lived in his parents basement and ended up blowing off a finger with a flint lock pistol he ordered as a kit in the mail. Supposedly, Richard Feynman claimed to have an IQ of 125. I don't think the IQ test is worthless per se, and there is no doubt trends to how it applies to stats vs individuals have some value, but I personally put little stock in it. Most I have known with very high IQ's were savant types, and could memorize say bio chem charts all day, but could not tie their shoes and such.
Charles Whitman supposedly had an IQ 139.
I knew someone with an IQ of 186. He lived in his parents basement and ended up blowing off a finger with a flint lock pistol he ordered as a kit in the mail. Supposedly, Richard Feynman claimed to have an IQ of 125. I don't think the IQ test is worthless per se, and there is no doubt trends to how it applies to stats vs individuals have some value, but I personally put little stock in it. Most I have known with very high IQ's were savant types, and could memorize say bio chem charts all day, but could not tie their shoes and such.
This one reason a lot of people are getting away from it and looking at Emotional Intelligence. A guy could cure cancer, but if he can't play nice with others, communicate a thought worth a damn, read a room, give a presentation, then his worth is limited.
The smartest person I know got straight A’s all through high school and college. Graduated high school as a valedictorian and college with the Summa cum laude distinction. He liked to brag that his IQ was in the high 130s. Nobody else really gave a shit though.
Dude has close to zero life skills. Is 44 years old he lives with his parents and he drives a suburban transporting students with learning disabilities to the special ed school and gives people piano lessons. My favorite thing is, he got asked to leave the university library after getting caught masturbating to adult videos. High IQ not everything.
joedirt199
03-31-21, 18:26
Need a common sense class or degree. Plenty of that not going around.
I knew someone with an IQ of 186. He lived in his parents basement and ended up blowing off a finger with a flint lock pistol he ordered as a kit in the mail. Supposedly, Richard Feynman claimed to have an IQ of 125. I don't think the IQ test is worthless per se, and there is no doubt trends to how it applies to stats vs individuals have some value, but I personally put little stock in it. Most I have known with very high IQ's were savant types, and could memorize say bio chem charts all day, but could not tie their shoes and such.
Whoever said it's a fine line between genius and insanity wasn't very far off.
Just like I can't associate with truly dumber than shit people (and I don't mean IQ scores) I imagine Mensa types simply can't relate to the rest of us. It's kind of like how true sociopaths have to pretend to relate to people on an emotional level.
Whoever said it's a fine line between genius and insanity wasn't very far off.
Just like I can't associate with truly dumber than shit people (and I don't mean IQ scores) I imagine Mensa types simply can't relate to the rest of us. It's kind of like how true sociopaths have to pretend to relate to people on an emotional level.
Site is DT today
Whoever said it's a fine line between genius and insanity wasn't very far off.
Just like I can't associate with truly dumber than shit people (and I don't mean IQ scores) I imagine Mensa types simply can't relate to the rest of us. It's kind of like how true sociopaths have to pretend to relate to people on an emotional level.
Those with schizophrenia also tend to have a high IQ too.
Those with schizophrenia also tend to have a high IQ too.
There is an older article (1997, Psychological Medicine) that correlated schizophrenia with lower IQs, but could not conclude why, citing several possible factors. 2015 American Journal of Psychiatry article "IQ and Schizophrenia in a Swedish National Sample: Their Causal Relationship and the Interaction of IQ With Genetic Risk" concluded "...In this large, representative sample, we found no evidence for a link between genius and schizophrenia."
If you have other data, I'd love to see it. I have no dog in the fight; I just find this all interesting.
Those with schizophrenia also tend to have a high IQ too.
There is an older article (1997, Psychological Medicine) that correlated schizophrenia with lower IQs, but could not conclude why, citing several possible factors. 2015 American Journal of Psychiatry article "IQ and Schizophrenia in a Swedish National Sample: Their Causal Relationship and the Interaction of IQ With Genetic Risk" concluded "...In this large, representative sample, we found no evidence for a link between genius and schizophrenia."
If you have other data, I'd love to see it. I have no dog in the fight; I just find this all interesting.
There is an older article (1997, Psychological Medicine) that correlated schizophrenia with lower IQs, but could not conclude why, citing several possible factors. 2015 American Journal of Psychiatry article "IQ and Schizophrenia in a Swedish National Sample: Their Causal Relationship and the Interaction of IQ With Genetic Risk" concluded "...In this large, representative sample, we found no evidence for a link between genius and schizophrenia."
If you have other data, I'd love to see it. I have no dog in the fight; I just find this all interesting.
That's a fair point. A proff had made that comment that those with schizophrenia tended to have higher IQs. Can't say I looked into it much. There appears to be some sub set issues within the IQ topic. I found this and thought it was interesting:
"IN the case of discordant identical twins (one twin has it, the other does not), the IQ of the affected twin tends to be lower- by about 10 points- . BUT,
(1) if the unaffected twin has an IQ of 160, then the affected one will have an IQ of 150, which is still brilliant
(2) this is an old finding.
We also know that active episodes of schizophrenia are bad for the brain and destroy nerve cells
Because we now have medications which may prevent future episodes (and thereby protect the brain from degeneration), this lowering of IQ may possibly be prevented."
- TED Saks is a USC law professor who also has schizophrenia
Some interesting discussion also:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/beautiful-minds/200903/schizophrenic-thought-madness-or-potential-genius
End of the day, my comment may simply be wrong, not sure now, but it appears there's a lot moving parts to that topic.
That's a fair point. A proff had made that comment that those with schizophrenia tended to have higher IQs. Can't say I looked into it much. There appears to be some sub set issues within the IQ topic. I found this and thought it was interesting:
"IN the case of discordant identical twins (one twin has it, the other does not), the IQ of the affected twin tends to be lower- by about 10 points- . BUT,
(1) if the unaffected twin has an IQ of 160, then the affected one will have an IQ of 150, which is still brilliant
(2) this is an old finding.
We also know that active episodes of schizophrenia are bad for the brain and destroy nerve cells
Because we now have medications which may prevent future episodes (and thereby protect the brain from degeneration), this lowering of IQ may possibly be prevented."
- TED Saks is a USC law professor who also has schizophrenia
Some interesting discussion also:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/beautiful-minds/200903/schizophrenic-thought-madness-or-potential-genius
End of the day, my comment may simply be wrong, not sure now, but it appears there's a lot moving parts to that topic.
Thanks for the input.
I think there's a fair assumption to say there's some correlation: Einstein's son, a physician; John Nash (he of "A beautiful Mind"); a crap-ton of famous musicians and writers. What I'd be interested in knowing, is the link to mental illness with which part of the brain is dominant vs IQ. You are right, a lot of moving parts.
Again, immaterial to me, really, just interested.
Regarding IQ, I have been working with an officer in Air Force special warfare assessment and selection (former PJ, now a combat rescue officer), who was tasked with assessing candidate's potential based on intelligence. He told me they have moved away from that--the ASVAB scores are good enough to predict technical intelligence--and have moved into assess emotional intelligence. He has been sharing some data and resources with me as I look into the same at my organization.
Thanks for the input.
I think there's a fair assumption to say there's some correlation: Einstein's son, a physician; John Nash (he of "A beautiful Mind"); a crap-ton of famous musicians and writers. What I'd be interested in knowing, is the link to mental illness with which part of the brain is dominant vs IQ. You are right, a lot of moving parts.
Again, immaterial to me, really, just interested.
Regarding IQ, I have been working with an officer in Air Force special warfare assessment and selection (former PJ, now a combat rescue officer), who was tasked with assessing candidate's potential based on intelligence. He told me they have moved away from that--the ASVAB scores are good enough to predict technical intelligence--and have moved into assess emotional intelligence. He has been sharing some data and resources with me as I look into the same at my organization.
A balanced well rounded mind, should probably be tested on IQ, Emotional, and Global Intelligence scale perhaps:
https://psychologydictionary.org/global-intelligence/
titsonritz
04-09-21, 17:18
I ran across this article and thought of this thread. Here is how some of the brainiest people ever stake up. Einstein isn’t even close to the top, but who knows for sure since he was never tested.
The 10 Highest IQs in History (https://cavemancircus.com/2021/03/30/the-10-highest-iqs-in-history/)
I ran across this article and thought of this thread. Here is how some of the brainiest people ever stake up. Einstein isn’t even close to the top, but who knows for sure since he was never tested.
The 10 Highest IQs in History (https://cavemancircus.com/2021/03/30/the-10-highest-iqs-in-history/)
If the weird tests I've taken are the standard, I would say it's mostly figuring out established patterns/rules. Innovators and those who break new trails in science and technology are not necessarily smarter, but their thinking is not bound by those established patterns and rules.
I have a side hustle at an auto parts store. Young girl just called up. “My brake light came up, what does that mean?”
Me: you need brake fluid ASAP, stop as a gas station and get some. Girl: I don’t know where to put it. Me: you can google it. Girl: I don’t wanna **** up my car. Me: there’s a cap that says brake fluid.
People have zero interest in learning how to do anything despite having a smart phone connected to the internet
I picked up a pretty impressive chunk of metal in a tire right before I parked at work this week. One of my direct reports was fascinated watching me swap it - she said she knew you changed a tire when it was flat but had never seen someone do it before.
City folk...
Runaway gun
Check fire, check fire..... break that belt!!!!!!!
A guy could cure cancer, but if he can't play nice with others, communicate a thought worth a damn, read a room, give a presentation, then his worth is limited.
Curing cancer doesn't sound very limited to me.
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