View Full Version : Building material cost
thepatriot2705
03-28-21, 16:41
Today I bought 2 8’ 2x4s, 4 10’ and 5 12’. Total was about $120. Building material prices keep climbing and it sucks.
12 ga Thhn is up $20 per 500 feet. 250 ft of 12 ga romex is $100.
Conduit is about $5/stick for 1/2”.
At this rate, it’s bound to start causing problems.
It's going to keep going up. The builders in my area are only limited by the availability of materials and the extreme difficulty getting labor. Houses sell as fast as they can build them, commercial buildings are sometimes 100% leased out before the red iron is even up.
Don't know about your AO but most materials here only hit the distributor long enough to get split up into delivery orders. Hell, manholes are like 2 month lead time right now.
And I just got an appraisal back on my recent rental remodel, it was around $94 per sq ft. Appraised for 150k when rents bring in $2,125 a month... The market is demanding at least $115 per sq ft so I'm a little pissed and pushing back on the appraisal report. If I can't get my initial purchase price out of this one I may just sell it as a flip.
Material costs keep climbing, I don't see how people are still building. Low interest rates have been covering the increase in housing cost because the monthly payment is still down and that's what most really care about anyway... I've been expecting a cooling market since the start of COVID but it just keeps climbing where I'm at... Making us investors work a little more to find a deal, can't just find them on the MLS as easily now...lol
Coal Dragger
03-28-21, 17:09
There’s gonna be one hell of a correction when interest rates go back up.
I made mention of this in the ammo thread a couple of weeks ago. I came out of retirement around the first of this year to add a screen porch to a friends house. It was typical Hilton Head grade.. Gable roof, v-joint ceiling, tile floor, ceiling fan, electrical with cable for a TV. The addition cost $77K with no markup. That is $513 per square foot for 150 S/F. I am in the process of putting a 8x16 trellis over my patio. I need 6/10' treated 6x6 post for the project. $54 each. More than triple what they cost 2 years ago. You can thank the government! Most forestry and lumber mill jobs down here are in rural areas and don't pay much more than minimum wage. One person test positive for the virus and everyone goes home to collect enhanced unemployment. Why would they work for minimum wage when Uncle Sam will pay them $1000 a week to sit on their ass?
My house is paid for no debt no plans on remodel will sell later do not want a stick house ever again
Building another home I am going to go for some kinda cement or other like the styrofoam block with cement ? I even think about building a earth whatever home with the built into a berm as they are insane for power efficiency but a bit hippy for me :) hahahaha
Yeah lumber is going up and yeah on correction going to get messy soon
According to CNBC, soaring lumber prices have added $24,000 to the price of a new home (on average).
thepatriot2705
03-28-21, 20:48
I’m putting on a 16x20 3 story addition. Wood prices have me leaning toward double brick construction which is how the rest of the house is
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-28-21, 21:53
There’s gonna be one hell of a correction when interest rates go back up.
I still don't know how the whole inflation/interest-rate/house-asset value thing will play out. I guess the 70s would be instructive, but that is a different model and drivers. I would think that house prices would dip as the interest rates go up- or more likely, the market just freezes and houses just sit. PEr 100K, 3.2% is $400/month, 6% is $600 and 9% is $800. Ouch. To me, between 6-9 is a real normal rate. With silly money into the economy, I think we could see over 10%.
And we haven't gone through all the evictions and foreclosures. Still, I bet that will hit the lower end of the market harder.
I’m putting on a 16x20 3 story addition. Wood prices have me leaning toward double brick construction which is how the rest of the house is
Aren't most 'brick' actually frames builds with nonstructural brick? Brick is just the exterior? Old school was concrete and brick. Half our house was 1940s vintage and is solid wall.
Considering how long it could get a house built now, and the potential for higher interest rates, I don't know how you could build a house now and have an idea about what it would really cost.
thepatriot2705
03-28-21, 23:18
Aren't most 'brick' actually frames builds with nonstructural brick? Brick is just the exterior? Old school was concrete and brick. Half our house was 1940s vintage and is solid wall.
Considering how long it could get a house built now, and the potential for higher interest rates, I don't know how you could build a house now and have an idea about what it would really cost.
Most houses are stick built with face brick as a "veneer". Old historic structures (my house) are true brick buildings with two layers of brick. The two layers are connected via perpendicular brick every 6 or so courses. So instead of wood being the structural part, the brick is. Modern stick built with brick veneer would be cheaper (but with the way lumber is going, not that much cheaper), but im in the mood to lay 16k or so bricks
Coal Dragger
03-29-21, 01:28
I think I’d seriously look into building an ICF home given the cost of lumber.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-21, 01:55
It would be interesting to see what concrete is going for. It gets tight from time to time. Metal studs?
I know that plywood is tight and expensive, what about drywall?
Coal Dragger
03-29-21, 02:29
To hell with it, you can do full ICF interior walls too if you want.
Just be sure you want those rooms that way cause steel reinforced concrete walls are not going to be easy to knock down or modify.
To hell with it, you can do full ICF interior walls too if you want.
Just be sure you want those rooms that way cause steel reinforced concrete walls are not going to be easy to knock down or modify.
The Europeans do interior concrete walls pretty successfully. They "wallpaper" them and then paint.
I cannot even guess how many times more expensive their buildings must be per sq ft than ours.
Since brick is just a veneer on newer homes, ICF could be a very attractive option if it was more affordable.
Andy
We just had a deck built. Our contractor (we use him exclusively, he's built an addition on our house and a deck on the back. New deck is on front) used wood for the posts, rails, and pickets, but said for the deck flooring Trex was same price, so we used Trex.
He's also on hold on two house builds because of the cost of lumber.
This isn't just residential, I am dealing with crazy escalation on several commercial projects. We have a $45MM industrial addition going up in NJ and we had to VE the crap out of it to cut scope due to the increase in materials costs. We're not talking lumber here, we're talking steel and concrete. We were in negotiations with a concrete panel manufacturer, the largest in the US, their lead time is something like 60 weeks so we had to go to a smaller competitor. We started design on this project in late 2018 and since them cost of everything has skyrockted.
On Thursday I got a call that bar joists are almost a year wait, so the $60MM expansion in Ohio is most likely going to have a full w-flange roof.
It's getting nutty!
It's going to keep going up. The builders in my area are only limited by the availability of materials and the extreme difficulty getting labor. Houses sell as fast as they can build them, commercial buildings are sometimes 100% leased out before the red iron is even up.
Don't know about your AO but most materials here only hit the distributor long enough to get split up into delivery orders. Hell, manholes are like 2 month lead time right now.
Just finished a 46,000SF project in Sandy, it was a nightmare due to escalation. We had to redesign the entire building.
I think I’d seriously look into building an ICF home given the cost of lumber.
A buddy of mine moved to NC and wanted to build a home out of ICF so I looked into it because he asked me to design it if he goes the new build route. Something I never knew: in NC you need a termite treatment before the county will sign off on the final inspections for the home. Termite companies won't treat and ICF house because termites use the foam as tunnels to get up to the roof or whatever wood they may find. New to me, but almost impossible to get an ICF home signed off here. Don't know what AO you're in, but something to be cognizant of.
Something else to consider, if you stucco the outside of the house, technically it's EIFS. Some Architects' insurance policies don't cover EIFS so they may not want to give you drawings for an ICF house.
I always liked ICF construction, but whenever you go away from "traditional" framing there is always some portion of it that some AHJ will make a pain in the ass.
The Europeans do interior concrete walls pretty successfully. They "wallpaper" them and then paint.
Andy
Why do you think every Soviet apartment you see has rugs on the walls? LOL
When you have to bust out the hammer drill to hang a picture, the novelty wears off. What if you need to add an outlet? Plusses and minuses to everything, right?
My WoodMizer LT35 Laughs at "High Lumber Prices"!
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-21, 11:40
The Europeans do interior concrete walls pretty successfully. They "wallpaper" them and then paint.
I cannot even guess how many times more expensive their buildings must be per sq ft than ours.
Since brick is just a veneer on newer homes, ICF could be a very attractive option if it was more affordable.
Andy
My buddy that lives over in Italy says that every time there’s a house fire in the US that makes the news over there the Italians just shake their heads and wonder why we make our house is out of kindling.
I have been wanting to do my basement for a while and this would have been the year to do it, but because of the rising costs I have taken the stance to wait and see how things go next year. I think we are on a financial decline and I'd rather spend my money on investments
I keep waiting for SIPS and modular to take over the residential and small retail/commercial industry. It's way more efficient in terms of labor and materials.
I have been wanting to do my basement for a while and this would have been the year to do it, but because of the rising costs I have taken the stance to wait and see how things go next year. I think we are on a financial decline and I'd rather spend my money on investments
Probably the wisest use of funds unless you were willing/able to finish it out for a renter.
Coal Dragger
03-29-21, 13:05
This isn't just residential, I am dealing with crazy escalation on several commercial projects. We have a $45MM industrial addition going up in NJ and we had to VE the crap out of it to cut scope due to the increase in materials costs. We're not talking lumber here, we're talking steel and concrete. We were in negotiations with a concrete panel manufacturer, the largest in the US, their lead time is something like 60 weeks so we had to go to a smaller competitor. We started design on this project in late 2018 and since them cost of everything has skyrockted.
On Thursday I got a call that bar joists are almost a year wait, so the $60MM expansion in Ohio is most likely going to have a full w-flange roof.
It's getting nutty!
Just finished a 46,000SF project in Sandy, it was a nightmare due to escalation. We had to redesign the entire building.
A buddy of mine moved to NC and wanted to build a home out of ICF so I looked into it because he asked me to design it if he goes the new build route. Something I never knew: in NC you need a termite treatment before the county will sign off on the final inspections for the home. Termite companies won't treat and ICF house because termites use the foam as tunnels to get up to the roof or whatever wood they may find. New to me, but almost impossible to get an ICF home signed off here. Don't know what AO you're in, but something to be cognizant of.
Something else to consider, if you stucco the outside of the house, technically it's EIFS. Some Architects' insurance policies don't cover EIFS so they may not want to give you drawings for an ICF house.
I always liked ICF construction, but whenever you go away from "traditional" framing there is always some portion of it that some AHJ will make a pain in the ass.
Why do you think every Soviet apartment you see has rugs on the walls? LOL
When you have to bust out the hammer drill to hang a picture, the novelty wears off. What if you need to add an outlet? Plusses and minuses to everything, right?
ICF can also be done for the roof and floors too, you can literally make a structure with a pitched roof and floors made of steel reinforced concrete. So who gives a shit about termites at that point?
As far as exterior and interior walls since the ICF has styrofoam on both sides of the wall once poured and the blocks are designed with a plastic stringer in between for the rebar to set in, you have the ability to hang sheet rock inside and whatever siding you choose outside. The blocks are even marked with the location of each area where you can secure to, and on most of them it’s every 8” instead of 16”.
ICF can also be done for the roof and floors too, you can literally make a structure with a pitched roof and floors made of steel reinforced concrete. So who gives a shit about termites at that point?
As far as exterior and interior walls since the ICF has styrofoam on both sides of the wall once poured and the blocks are designed with a plastic stringer in between for the rebar to set in, you have the ability to hang sheet rock inside and whatever siding you choose outside. The blocks are even marked with the location of each area where you can secure to, and on most of them it’s every 8” instead of 16”.
I understand how ICF work. What I am saying is that in some jurisdictions, the Code hasn't cough up to the times.
Coal Dragger
03-29-21, 14:07
Why would the code for a wood structure apply at all if there is no wood?
Do they also treat steel buildings for termites? I think not.
Whiskey_Bravo
03-29-21, 14:13
Why would the code for a wood structure apply at all if there is no wood?
Do they also treat steel buildings for termites? I think not.
Because codes and the people that write them are not always the smartest and rarely do codes keep up with modern tech. Then you get stuck with an inspector that doesn't understand the product and he can really make your life hard.
Why would the code for a wood structure apply at all if there is no wood?
Do they also treat steel buildings for termites? I think not.
I've had to pretreat underslab for steel buildings and tilt ups. Local ordinances don't have any more logic behind them than federal ones.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-21, 16:54
Because codes and the people that write them are not always the smartest and rarely do codes keep up with modern tech. Then you get stuck with an inspector that doesn't understand the product and he can really make your life hard.
I've been involved from the materials side and frankly the building codes and regs make the EPA and FDA look like amateurs when it comes to old, outdated and sometimes contradictory rules.
I was at a Title 24 meeting out in CA and after a day long meeting a roofing contractor that hadn't said a word all day just said- "Ya'll spend a lot of time and money talking about expensive shade."
And it is getting more expensive...
Why would the code for a wood structure apply at all if there is no wood?
Do they also treat steel buildings for termites? I think not.
Because there are two sets of Building Codes developed by the ICC. The International Building Code and the International Residential Code. If you are building something that is R-5 (one or two family structure) occupancy then the IRC applies.
The IBC applies equally to any type of Construction from VB which is combustible (wood) to IA (3hr rated non combustible. The problem is that the IRC is prescriptive, it literally tells you what size joist to use for a given span for instance. It doesn’t have anything about ICFs. This means that all the structural calculations have to be provided by the licensed professional to the AHJ, this is going to cost a premium.
Of you build a commercial structure, the Code only specifies what the structure must due, what wind it just resists things like that. In the IRC it just tells you what to do. Anything outside of that means the AHJ has to do extra work, how often do government employees want to do extra work? In places like SD it may not matter, in more heavily regulated states it’s a giant pain in the balls.
The termite thing is a NC thing, not a Code requirement. Many states add additional caveats over the Code. Like Nj has thousands of pages of the NJAC which adds rules that are not in the Code. If it’s a commercial property then ANSI A117.1 also applies and so on.
This isn’t my first rodeo. I’ve been an architect for 13 years and licensed since 2012 doing projects all over the country and even South Korea.
thepatriot2705
03-29-21, 19:51
Because there are two sets of Building Codes developed by the ICC. The International Building Code and the International Residential Code. If you are building something that is R-5 (one or two family structure) occupancy then the IRC applies.
The IBC applies equally to any type of Construction from VB which is combustible (wood) to IA (3hr rated non combustible. The problem is that the IRC is prescriptive, it literally tells you what size joist to use for a given span for instance. It doesn’t have anything about ICFs. This means that all the structural calculations have to be provided by the licensed professional to the AHJ, this is going to cost a premium.
Of you build a commercial structure, the Code only specifies what the structure must due, what wind it just resists things like that. In the IRC it just tells you what to do. Anything outside of that means the AHJ has to do extra work, how often do government employees want to do extra work? In places like SD it may not matter, in more heavily regulated states it’s a giant pain in the balls.
The termite thing is a NC thing, not a Code requirement. Many states add additional caveats over the Code. Like Nj has thousands of pages of the NJAC which adds rules that are not in the Code. If it’s a commercial property then ANSI A117.1 also applies and so on.
This isn’t my first rodeo. I’ve been an architect for 13 years and licensed since 2012 doing projects all over the country and even South Korea.
So I need to replace some floor joist that were cut for stairs when it was converted to a two family. The building has 2x10s spanning 15 ft. Think I can get away with sliding reclaimed 2x10s in there or am I going to have to bring it to modern code. If modern, f that. The building has stood for a 130 years.
So I need to replace some floor joist that were cut for stairs when it was converted to a two family. The building has 2x10s spanning 15 ft. Think I can get away with sliding reclaimed 2x10s in there or am I going to have to bring it to modern code. If modern, f that. The building has stood for a 130 years.
Depends on the State. I hate bringing up NJ again but I’ve spent most of my career there, they have Rehabilitation SubCode as part of the state law (NJAC) which allows for in kind replacement.
Also, what are the floor joists supporting? Living area of sleeping area? The Code makes a distinction because Living areas are 10PSF DL + 40PSF LL whereas Sleeping areas are 30SPF LL.
Also, what species of wood and grade of lumber?
Let’s assume the heavier, Living Area
A 2x10 @ 16” OC which is Structural Select Dug Fir can span 17’-4” per Table R502.3.1(2)
#1 grade can span 16’-5” and #2 15’-7”
If it’s Hem Fir 2x10@16” OC
SS = 16’-5”
#1 16’-0”
#2 15’-2”
Southern Pine
SS 17-0
#1 16-1
So on and so forth.
thepatriot2705
03-29-21, 20:28
Depends on the State. I hate bringing up NJ again but I’ve spent most of my career there, they have Rehabilitation SubCode as part of the state law (NJAC) which allows for in kind replacement.
Also, what are the floor joists supporting? Living area of sleeping area? The Code makes a distinction because Living areas are 10PSF DL + 40PSF LL whereas Sleeping areas are 30SPF LL.
Also, what species of wood and grade of lumber?
Let’s assume the heavier, Living Area
A 2x10 @ 16” OC which is Structural Select Dug Fir can span 17’-4” per Table R502.3.1(2)
#1 grade can span 16’-5” and #2 15’-7”
If it’s Hem Fir 2x10@16” OC
SS = 16’-5”
#1 16’-0”
#2 15’-2”
Southern Pine
SS 17-0
#1 16-1
So on and so forth.
Bed room and hallway. Span is 15 ft plus another 10” which are supported by brick (5” each end)
Bed room and hallway. Span is 15 ft plus another 10” which are supported by brick (5” each end)
The only thing that counts is the free span. The support width matters for shear but the IRC assumes 3.5” bearing or a standard 2x4 wall top plate.
Basically any of those solutions will work for you since I assumed the heavier of the two scenarios.
If you ever need to design a beam or even check a joist, look up ForteWeb. It is a really easy to use online program by Weyerhaeuser, the guys who make TJIs, Microlams and so on.
You select the type of beam/hoist/rafter you want to you want to design. Add the load, then select the material and depth, number of plies then test it. It’s actually a really good software for designing residential members. When I design houses I use it to design all the beams.
Adrenaline_6
03-31-21, 09:17
You just have to put things off a bit. We have only about a month's supply of houses up for sale in real estate. The average is about 6 months. About 3.2 million houses are in 30 day delinquency and 2.1 million houses are in over 90 days delinquency that are not in foreclosure. What is keeping many of them out of foreclosure is the fed with the moratorium. In other words, life support.
Once that moratorium ends...and it will, many will have to sell. This will put the supply over the average 6 months and the whole supply and demand thing will crash housing prices along with new housing demands being built, in turn the demand on building supplies. The supply will go up, bringing supply prices down and even the labor prices required to build them.
Patience....grasshopper. The projection is by the end of this or next year. We will see.
You just have to put things off a bit. We have only about a month's supply of houses up for sale in real estate. The average is about 6 months. About 3.2 million houses are in 30 day delinquency and 2.1 million houses are in over 90 days delinquency that are not in foreclosure. What is keeping many of them out of foreclosure is the fed with the moratorium. In other words, life support.
Once that moratorium ends...and it will, many will have to sell. This will put the supply over the average 6 months and the whole supply and demand thing will crash housing prices along with new housing demands being built, in turn the demand on building supplies. The supply will go up, bringing supply prices down and even the labor prices required to build them.
Patience....grasshopper. The projection is by the end of this or next year. We will see.
There are already a few lawsuits that I am aware of that have challenged the federal rent eviction moratorium and struck it down. I can't see how the Lenders etc...are any different than people holding rental property- they have the same injury and certainly the means to challenge the moratorium if it is renewed and likely will- some of them will anyway. Some may have a wink and a nod deal with Biden Admin not to start throwing people out on the street- that's bad press....... Of course, we may also get some kind of Federal "forgiveness" bullshit as well and of course there are stimulus payments still hitting people's accounts......
But, yes, I am stacking cash hoping for the crash- I need about 3-4 income producing properties at the right money and I'm retired. Done. Gone.
I keep waiting for SIPS and modular to take over the residential and small retail/commercial industry. It's way more efficient in terms of labor and materials.
That only works if you have a SIPS factory nearby. The cost of shipping takes away the efficiency of SIPs in many parts of the country. There is also a shortage of resin for EPS right now, so it's a fragile market as well.
As for the rest of it, the high prices are also putting the hurt on small and mid-size lumber yards like mine. With each load of lumber going up in price so fast, I've had to get really creative on my finances to be able to afford to stock my lumber yard. Things like common pine 1x material is virtually non-existent in the western market and what there is available is sucked up by Lowes and Depot. I just got an email yesterday from one of the biggest copper wire producers in the country and they are now limiting availability for the summer. Copper pipe is having the same issues. I thought 2020 was going to be my biggest business challenge ever and I was wrong.
robbins290
04-01-21, 11:10
I work with steel, and have made alot of steel project (shooting shed frame, railings on my deck, work benches, some tools, trailers, trailer hitches, ETC, ETC)
Right now is the worst I seen in steel prices. Doubled in a few weeks. I have some new steel plates drawn out for a plasma table. But with steel being close to a dollar a pound. I will wait. I noticed all material has gone up.
BTW, the guys on here will love the little surprise i made for one of the balusters.
65522
I picked a great year to get my house ready to sell, didn't I? Other than the roof (being installed right now) we don't have anything major, but it all adds up.
If things work out, we will sell our house and move right into one a co-worker is moving out of.
Andy
thepatriot2705
04-01-21, 12:40
Lowe’s has 12/2 romex (250’) for $121. Nuts! 19/32 OSB? $37. $7 for a 2x4x8. $87 for a 500’ roll of 12 ga stranded thhn. 4x8 drywall is $8/sheet
Lowe’s has 12/2 romex (250’) for $121. Nuts! 19/32 OSB? $37. $7 for a 2x4x8. $87 for a 500’ roll of 12 ga stranded thhn. 4x8 drywall is $8/sheet
I needed 3/4", fire rated, exterior treated, A/C grade, plywood for a data room. You don't even know.
I needed 3/4", fire rated, exterior treated, A/C grade, plywood for a data room. You don't even know.
Wonder if you are working on my project lol
Wonder if you are working on my project lol
Ha, it's an oddball spec to be sure. But this project is finishing up at Denver Fed Center. If you were on it I'd hate you already. ;)
Wonder if you are working on my project lol
Ha, it's an oddball spec to be sure. But this project is finishing up at Denver Fed Center. If you were on it I'd hate you already. ;)
Ha, it's an oddball spec to be sure. But this project is finishing up at Denver Fed Center. If you were on it I'd hate you already. ;)
Nope. Not me. I assumed you were in Utah cause of the screen name, we had a last minute addition of two IT closets at the project I did in Sandy (SLC)
Ha, it's an oddball spec to be sure. But this project is finishing up at Denver Fed Center. If you were on it I'd hate you already. ;)
Nope. Not me. I assumed you were in Utah cause of the screen name, we had a last minute addition of two IT closets at the project I did in Sandy (SLC)
I'm based in Ut. but I goes where da boss man sez.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.