View Full Version : Chauvin Trial Commentary
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-21, 17:57
Just watching the opening arguments now. I guess no real insights yet, but I'd like to hear from the legal eagles as the case goes on.
Frankly, the Prosecutors opening is pretty tame.
Chauvin is only 5'9 and 140 pounds. I would have thought he was bigger.
If the knee didn’t do shit then you must acquit
Fentanyl in the brother is what made him smother.
Real racist Caucasians don’t marry women of Asian Persuasions
Averageman
03-29-21, 18:29
If the knee didn’t do shit then you must acquit
Fentanyl in the brother is what made him smother.
Real racist Caucasians don’t marry women of Asian Persuasions
Some body cam images are out there that purport to show Floyd with the dope in his mouth.
The Defense says "they have tested the dope found in the back seat, Fentanyl, meth and Floyds DNA all in it."
Just watching the opening arguments now. I guess no real insights yet, but I'd like to hear from the legal eagles as the case goes on.
Frankly, the Prosecutors opening is pretty tame.
Chauvin is only 5'9 and 140 pounds. I would have thought he was bigger.
Damn, I thought Chauvin was bigger....
titsonritz
03-29-21, 19:32
Damn, I thought Chauvin was bigger....
I thought he was pretty good sized also.
titsonritz
03-29-21, 19:34
If the knee didn’t do shit then you must acquit
Fentanyl in the brother is what made him smother.
Real racist Caucasians don’t marry women of Asian Persuasions
That's perfect. Riots inbound.
Business_Casual
03-29-21, 20:21
Did anyone see the MSM has already doxxed the jury. No chance of acquittal for following department procedure/training. This will have to go to appeal.
ThirdWatcher
03-29-21, 21:32
I haven’t watched, I hate the fact that they allow live-feed cameras in the courtroom.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-29-21, 21:35
Did anyone see the MSM has already doxxed the jury. No chance of acquittal for following department procedure/training. This will have to go to appeal.
Where?
Straight Shooter
03-29-21, 21:47
Some body cam images are out there that purport to show Floyd with the dope in his mouth.
The Defense says "they have tested the dope found in the back seat, Fentanyl, meth and Floyds DNA all in it."
Not purported...you can see it in his mouth very easily. Dude had a mouth like a manhole cover.
WillieThom
03-29-21, 22:53
I thought he was pretty good sized also.
5’ 9” 140lb vs. 6’ 4” 229lb; quite the size discrepancy.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-30-21, 00:26
Buddy of mine is tuned into this guys analysis.
https://lawofselfdefense.com/chauvin-trial-day-1-opening-arguments-three-state-witnesses/
Definitely a bit defense biased, but interesting to read.
Sweet Jesus that second witness is a POC moron. I get she doesn't want to be there, I almost admire it, but she literally knows nothing. National TV and you wear your best T-shirt. She can't remember things as if Hillary Clinton is sitting in the first row with a noose.
This appears to be the “expert witness” damaging a State Police vehicle at the 00:07 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUX8CmsxRxs
https://www.fccnn.com/incoming/6932198-inpen2-capture.JPG/alternates/BASE_LANDSCAPE/capture.JPG
If any of this gets memory-holed or deleted within 48 hours then you know it’s true
Averageman
03-30-21, 18:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvx8JTnrbNw
A few mistakes made by the Prosecutor, looks this is going to take a while and likely end in a hung Jury.
EXTRAORDINARILY unprofessional Ambulance Driver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Y0XKFfoWU
Whomever her chief is needs to give her some wall to wall counseling. This cute, BULLSHIT, Law & Order SVU/Daily Show “sneak in a little extra beyond what’s necessary” is next level stupid.
This is amateur hour. Basically all they have for prosecution is “Your honor George Floyd is black. Chauvin is white. And that hurts our feelings”
Nobody’s discussing policy, TTP, then-current restraint training specific to the department’s SOP etc etc etc. They certainly are afraid of the pathology report. I mean JFC. Have a little bit of blood to go with your Fentanyl, Georgie Porgie
Yeah, If I was her boss I'd be a little ticked. Especially when you really need to have a good relationship with law enforcement and the criminal justice system.
That's perfect. Riots inbound.
Riots inbound anyway.
Riots inbound anyway.
Yeah, Minneapolis is gonna burn regardless of the outcome of the trial
Averageman
03-30-21, 19:17
Nobody’s discussing policy, TTP, then-current restraint training specific to the department’s SOP etc etc etc. They certainly are afraid of the pathology report. I mean JFC. Have a little bit of blood to go with your Fentanyl, Georgie Porgie
He swallowed the dope. he hid it in his mouth, tried to swallow it and in the end that is what killed him.
You know, once the dope is in their mouth it is a bit like Russian Roulette, do you really want to put your finger in his mouth to save him? Is he willing to swallow a lethal dose? A bit of a quandary there for me.
You have to take responsibility, if you want to be a Bad Guy, please don't expect us to pony up cash for you dying with a mouth full of dope. Man up, take the bust, take the time, in other words, Man Up.
Joe Shitzizpantz says it's all right wing propaganda. Just friendly folks roasting weinies and marshmallows.
Yeah, Minneapolis is gonna burn regardless of the outcome of the trial
Riots may not just be contained in MSP, Riots could be in every big city.
Riots may not just be contained in MSP, Riots could be in every big city.
Yeah, I suspect you're right.
The usual riot cities: Minneapolis, Chicago, NY, DC, Miami, Atl, Charlotte, LA, Houston, Dallas, Portland, Seattle.
Inkslinger
03-30-21, 19:46
I really got a kick out of the testimony from their expert MMA witness...
diving dave
03-30-21, 20:00
there is video of his arrest sometime in 2019...Very similar circumstances. Not complying and had pills in his mouth. That having been said, I still think the Officer wasn't too bright in doing what he did.
He swallowed the dope. he hid it in his mouth, tried to swallow it and in the end that is what killed him.
You know, once the dope is in their mouth it is a bit like Russian Roulette, do you really want to put your finger in his mouth to save him? Is he willing to swallow a lethal dose? A bit of a quandary there for me.
You have to take responsibility, if you want to be a Bad Guy, please don't expect us to pony up cash for you dying with a mouth full of dope. Man up, take the bust, take the time, in other words, Man Up.
I know. I’m just saying if I were a Prosecutor I would be actually finding, no matter how technical, minor, or obscure, any shortcomings with the arrest. At least then I could say I acted competently despite the impending acquittal.
But bringing on clown witnesses who are playing to cameras and hamming it up for the jury make the prosecution look like desperate dumbasses.
No matter how black some folks on the jury are, nobody likes being patronized.
I mean 911 Operator:
-Went on about Chauvin “looking evil” while letting slip that she ultimately delayed EMS by not running proper code. The Police called early for EMS. It was Dispatchers fault for not making them expedite as requested. And before someone says “UM SWEATIE THE COPS SHOULD HAVE CALLED EMS THEMSELVES”. Lol. No. Shut up. Shut the hell up. That’s literally 911s job.
Expert MMA Witness:
-Talked a lot of dumb go nowhere shit
-Offered expert opinion when not an expert
-has more losses than wins
-Was caught rioting months before
Waterbed White Girl:
-Didn’t know why she was even there
Rando 9 year old:
-obviously coached
EMS Karen:
-Ran her mouth way above her paygrade.
-Did nothing of value
-Probably not gonna have a good time now
-Got reprimanded by the Judge
And this is THE PROSECUTION. Really hard to sell this murder here.
SO YER TELLING ME:
-Officers called EMS well before the drama
-Officers tried to keep lookyloos from interfering with EMS
-Chauvin had virtually no weight or bear down on Floyd. Floyd could move head and breathe
-The drugs in his system were beyond a fatal dose
He was dead as soon as he swallowed them
And I am supposed to send an officer to prison for life for murder because “He white and George Jesus Floyd be black”?
there is video of his arrest sometime in 2019...Very similar circumstances. Not complying and had pills in his mouth. That having been said, I still think the Officer wasn't too bright in doing what he did.
I agree. Ive been a cop for about 14 years now and have had training pretty much yearly on positional asphyxiation and asphyxiation from pressure. It's pretty common knowledge in LE from pretty much every cop Ive talked to that dog piling the suspect is fine, but once they are in cuffs you get off of them and roll them onto their side or sit them up. I could see Chauvin getting convicted of some sort of manslaughter but I dont see the murder charges sticking. But we shall see.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-30-21, 20:41
Only saw the last part On EMS Karen, I hope her mom slaps the crap out of her tonight, but the way she acted- it would be the first time. Good thing she wore her uniform, because I thought she was going to spend the night in jail. She’s a veteran EMS tech, and she had said she had never seen a crowd hostile against the police? In Minneapolis? Over the past year? Suuuuuure. The defense lawyer didn’t know what to do with that.
Also would not want to be the guy at the end referenced as the “cell phone guy“ by the judge.
In the end the guy died while in police custody where every expert and non-expert and 7-Eleven cashier knew that something was going wrong. They are going to want to find him guilty of something. The cops didn’t kill him, but he was in their control and they did nothing to save him. That’s tough to overcome.
Except they called for EMS and requested it to be prioritized and the Dispatcher did not prioritize it properly hence the delay.
Once he swallowed the drugs. It was game over. He was a dead man walking. The police were simply trying to subdue him and there was literally nothing they could do for him.
They aren’t doctors. They aren’t physicians. They aren’t medics and even if they were; it would have been inappropriate to attempt anything around a hot crowd. There was really nothing they could have done any different except curbside theatrics to make it look like Floyd had a chance.
Like it or not, the officers didn’t do anything wrong or criminal here. Their job was to subdue an uncooperative suspect and wait for EMS.
That was the full scope of their responsibilities.
It’s more of this NCIS/SVU/SWAT BS where the Officer uses “some old trick he learned in the sandbox” to miracle some hophead back to life.
Officers do not administer drugs, use ALS, nor intubate.
You just don’t like it because you got a glimpse of reality and it hurts. You will have to stand there and watch somebody die over some stupid shit they did to themselves and then when the trail of tears come they “want answers” and someone to blame. So they blame the police.
I mean, some big black guy with a weight and height advantage who is bucking and his body is reacting to a total shock is supposed to be treated with kid gloves? Then we get to play what it. What if. What if. What if. What if.
George Floyd killed George Floyd but nobody wants to hear that.
The usual riot cities: Minneapolis, Chicago, NY, DC, Miami, Atl, Charlotte, LA, Houston, Dallas, Portland, Seattle.
You mean "peaceful protest" ...... right?
The usual riot cities: Minneapolis, Chicago, NY, DC, Miami, Atl, Charlotte, LA, Houston, Dallas, Portland, Seattle.Don't put Houston in that category. We were caught off guard on May 29, 2020 and had a few people act a fool and damage stores but we got it under control quick and the city didn't burn. If any city should have burned it should have been Houston since Floyd grew up here and was buried here. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210331/61ed9b2273ac5a39058b55020787f1c5.jpg
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
You mean "peaceful protest" ...... right?
Oh yes right.
Firefly has nicely summed up my thoughts to this point. To say the prosecution is reaching for anything is a gross understatement. From these witnesses they don't seem to have a case.
That ambulance driver should start looking for new work after that testimony. She will be getting the cold shoulder at every call involving the PD and the actual fire fighters will be ignoring her existence. She is not trustworthy and bot because she testified, but because of how she testified trying to sneak a bunch of bullshit in trying to act better than she is.
Every cop in here has called medics for suspects before. We aren't EMTs, Paramedics, Nurses or Drs. My medical training ends with putting gauze in holes that shouldn't be there and putting a TQ on squirty limbs. They called for medics but the bitchy dispatcher fvcked that up resulting in a delay. I haven't seen or heard anything in this political show trial that should result in any kind of conviction.
Thank God for this thread. Proof to me that fats are still facts.
All I'm seeing on the leftist media is that these misfit witnesses who were drug up by the prosecution are "powerful" "strong" "real" and they are exactly what the prosecution wants. Feely feel, wokey woke people blabbing on and on about how they felt while watching what they watched. The media is eating up, making it seem like their powerful messages about skin color is going to convict the man on trial. I don't know if this is going to come crashing down on everyone eating up the media emotional story line when the truth is what's ruled/convicted. Or if the truth seers will be blind sided by seeing the ruling being based on wokeness because that's what felt better at the time. Either way...pop corn in 3-2-1
teufelhund1918
03-31-21, 06:55
So far, from what I've seen, the trial is a bad BLM inspired joke. Pretty much no facts from so called witnesses, just knee jerked reactions of people who want to blame the police for Floyd resisting arrest. Chauvin will be hung on the gallows of Political Correctness. No doubt.... but they will still riot no matter what happens. It is in the nature of the beast.
There is so much 'fail' in this trial. A lot of people, a lot of people here on this forum, expect an acquittal or hung jury. I am not so sure. With doxxing, intimidation, and, well, Minneapolis, I can see the most skeptical being pressured to convict.
I keep going back to Karen the Medic. When I was in EMS I had to take the stand a few times. Also as a ED RN. It was usually benign, but we got hella prepped and warned by our agency's counsel to never, ever go off-script or freelance. There were a couple times things got uncomfortable but it was on me and bad documentation on my part. She was clown shoes and deserves the worst shift and worst partner forever.
There is so much 'fail' in this trial. A lot of people, a lot of people here on this forum, expect an acquittal or hung jury. I am not so sure. With doxxing, intimidation, and, well, Minneapolis, I can see the most skeptical being pressured to convict.
I keep going back to Karen the Medic. When I was in EMS I had to take the stand a few times. Also as a ED RN. It was usually benign, but we got hella prepped and warned by our agency's counsel to never, ever go off-script or freelance. There were a couple times things got uncomfortable but it was on me and bad documentation on my part. She was clown shoes and deserves the worst shift and worst partner forever.
People underestimate the power of a jury. I promise you the DA really didn’t want to go to jury trial. I am willing to bet you even money that moments before trial started that they offered Chauvin one last “deal”.
You can try to stack the deck in voir dire. You can try to bet on wild cards or the “sure thing”. But ultimately the jurors will see their responsibility before them. Nobody wants to get sequestered and the whole “doxxing” thing will happen even when it’s over.
What you have to understand is that if a defense is strong, the prosecution attacks character. Despite how it looks on Camera or Facebook; Chauvin and the rest checked all their boxes. Whenever people try to use sloganeering or evocative language like “We saw a lynching in the streets” or “He just looked evil on the TV” that isn’t going anywhere.
Because if there is a mistrial or an appeal, every last shred of evidence will be gone through with a fine tooth comb.
People forget that this isn’t TV or a Movie. No amount if spicy language and dramatic music is going to replace the “Beyond a Reasonable Doubt” part. The Prosecution is trying to convict this man of Murder and or Manslaughter and it’s just not there.
None of ChauvinÂ’s actions were directly responsible nor contributory to FloydÂ’s death. LetÂ’s take race out of it.
Person A is suspected of drug possession and counterfeit. Persons B-E are sworn officers and have Articuable Reasonable Suspicion that crime is afoot or about to occur and detain Person A. Person A swallows a fatal dose of drugs, one type of drug in particular that depresses breathing and lung function in excessive quantity. Persons B-E are aware Person A has swallowed the drugs but are unsure the exact amount. They notify dispatch to send EMS immediately. During this time Person A becomes erratic and passively resistant. He complains he cannot breathe and refuses to sit upright in the back of a police vehicle. He then requests to be on the ground. Officers compromise and allow this as a means to gain compliance. This is the time the crowd forms. The crowd is unaware that the officers have already called for EMS. A member of the crowd without presenting bona fides claims to be an EMT and demands to be allowed to intervene with the suspect. This person is unable to be verified as what they claim and are interfering in the scene of an active arrest while uniformed EMS with ALS equipment are on record as already having been notified. The crowd becomes agitated and unruly as Person B is kneeling over Person A in an effort to control him. No direct pressure is put on Person AÂ’s neck as revealed in autopsy. No strangulation. No tracheal collapse. No diminishment of bloodflow. The fatal dose has already relaxed his breathing as he fades consciousness and releases his bowels and bladder. As soon as EMS arrive, Persons B-E immediately remand care of Person A to EMS.
Explain to me then, please, taking race out of it; how the motherfvck are you going to turn that into murder or manslaughter?
Jury know they and theirs will be targeted and the country will burn if he is found not guilty.
People underestimate the power of a jury. I promise you the DA really didn’t want to go to jury trial. I am willing to bet you even money that moments before trial started that they offered Chauvin one last “deal”.
You can try to stack the deck in voir dire. You can try to bet on wild cards or the “sure thing”. But ultimately the jurors will see their responsibility before them. Nobody wants to get sequestered and the whole “doxxing” thing will happen even when it’s over.
What you have to understand is that if a defense is strong, the prosecution attacks character. Despite how it looks on Camera or Facebook; Chauvin and the rest checked all their boxes. Whenever people try to use sloganeering or evocative language like “We saw a lynching in the streets” or “He just looked evil on the TV” that isn’t going anywhere.
Because if there is a mistrial or an appeal, every last shred of evidence will be gone through with a fine tooth comb.
People forget that this isn’t TV or a Movie. No amount if spicy language and dramatic music is going to replace the “Beyond a Reasonable Doubt” part. The Prosecution is trying to convict this man of Murder and or Manslaughter and it’s just not there.
None of ChauvinÂ’s actions were directly responsible nor contributory to FloydÂ’s death. LetÂ’s take race out of it.
Person A is suspected of drug possession and counterfeit. Persons B-E are sworn officers and have Articuable Reasonable Suspicion that crime is afoot or about to occur and detain Person A. Person A swallows a fatal dose of drugs, one type of drug in particular that depresses breathing and lung function in excessive quantity. Persons B-E are aware Person A has swallowed the drugs but are unsure the exact amount. They notify dispatch to send EMS immediately. During this time Person A becomes erratic and passively resistant. He complains he cannot breathe and refuses to sit upright in the back of a police vehicle. He then requests to be on the ground. Officers compromise and allow this as a means to gain compliance. This is the time the crowd forms. The crowd is unaware that the officers have already called for EMS. A member of the crowd without presenting bona fides claims to be an EMT and demands to be allowed to intervene with the suspect. This person is unable to be verified as what they claim and are interfering in the scene of an active arrest while uniformed EMS with ALS equipment are on record as already having been notified. The crowd becomes agitated and unruly as Person B is kneeling over Person A in an effort to control him. No direct pressure is put on Person AÂ’s neck as revealed in autopsy. No strangulation. No tracheal collapse. No diminishment of bloodflow. The fatal dose has already relaxed his breathing as he fades consciousness and releases his bowels and bladder. As soon as EMS arrive, Persons B-E immediately remand care of Person A to EMS.
Explain to me then, please, taking race out of it; how the motherfvck are you going to turn that into murder or manslaughter?
I get negligent homicide (if they can prove it; the charge at least makes sense to the alleged crime), certainly not murder. Maybe I am not giving the jury enough credit, but I know the power of persuasion. Juries are made of people, and people will feel before they think. I hope you are right in that the jury will disregard the prosecution's misdirection and character assassination.
I know re: not a TV show or movie lol. The ones in which I have testified (and the one in which I was in the jury for all of 2 hours) were boring as hell.
Jury know they and theirs will be targeted and the country will burn if he is found not guilty. Send some cop to jail or see my daughter and wife gang raped? Not a tough choice...
You do realize that Jurors are sworn for their duration and that any attempts to intimidate or influence them is barratry or jury intimidation. You DO know that, yes?
You do know that a lot more goes into capital jury trials than “oh he looks bad. Guuuillltyyy”.
I mean, surely you wouldn’t embarrass yourself by implying otherwise. Yeah?
I get negligent homicide (if they can prove it; the charge at least makes sense to the alleged crime), certainly not murder. Maybe I am not giving the jury enough credit, but I know the power of persuasion. Juries are made of people, and people will feel before they think. I hope you are right in that the jury will disregard the prosecution's misdirection and character assassination.
I know re: not a TV show or movie lol. The ones in which I have testified (and the one in which I was in the jury for all of 2 hours) were boring as hell.
But HOW is it negligent?
They....
-Called for an Ambulance at first opportunity
-Used department approved restraint techniques
-Never overtly used hard hands or impact devices
-Immediately gave him over to EMS for treatment
You have to prove OVERT negligence beyond “oh he died in custody”. The what is not as germane as the HOW.
He overdosed and there was nothing the officers could do for him.
But HOW is it negligent?
They....
-Called for an Ambulance at first opportunity
-Used department approved restraint techniques
-Never overtly used hard hands or impact devices
-Immediately gave him over to EMS for treatment
You have to prove OVERT negligence beyond “oh he died in custody”. The what is not as germane as the HOW.
He overdosed and there was nothing the officers could do for him.
I did not say that it was; I merely said that of the charges, it would make more sense than murder. It sells better. Judicial overreach, maybe, but less of a stretch than murder.
Generally speaking I have not been following, so I don't know the evidence or details.
You do realize that Jurors are sworn for their duration and that any attempts to intimidate or influence them is barratry or jury intimidation. You DO know that, yes?
You do know that a lot more goes into capital jury trials than “oh he looks bad. Guuuillltyyy”.
I mean, surely you wouldn’t embarrass yourself by implying otherwise. Yeah?
I took the overdramatic part out of my post.
Do you think the jurors expected to remain anonymous? They damn sure know that people would be violently angry if he is aquitted. You gonna charge facebook with intimidation?
Will it cause them to send a man they feel is innocent to jail? I would like to think no. I would not like to be in any of their shoes.
Andy
I did not say that it was; I merely said that of the charges, it would make more sense than murder. It sells better. Judicial overreach, maybe, but less of a stretch than murder.
Generally speaking I have not been following, so I don't know the evidence or details.
This is his most lesser charge
609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:
(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or
(2) by shooting another with a firearm or other dangerous weapon as a result of negligently believing the other to be a deer or other animal; or
(3) by setting a spring gun, pit fall, deadfall, snare, or other like dangerous weapon or device; or
(4) by negligently or intentionally permitting any animal, known by the person to have vicious propensities or to have caused great or substantial bodily harm in the past, to run uncontrolled off the owner's premises, or negligently failing to keep it properly confined; or
(5) by committing or attempting to commit a violation of section 609.378 (neglect or endangerment of a child), and murder in the first, second, or third degree is not committed thereby.
If proven by a preponderance of the evidence, it shall be an affirmative defense to criminal liability under clause (4) that the victim provoked the animal to cause the victim's death.
Okay let’s look at the most relevant part of that statute
(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another;
Where was the unreasonable risk? Chauvin used then Department approved restraint techniques.
Floyd has to be responsible for HIS OWN ACTIONS too. He was passively resistant and non-compliant.
He would not sit upright. He was unruly and unpredictable. Had he not taken the Fentanyl he could have attacked a bystander. It was MORE THAN REASONABLE to restrain him. The pathology doesn’t lie. He had no pressure on his neck.
He overdosed. His Floyd overdosing Chauvin’s fault?
Averageman
03-31-21, 09:31
The prosecution was way out of line and over charged.
Now, I am just guessing, but after the "Witnesses" for the Prosecution spilled their stories, it was intentional.
You're not going to stop the rioting, they are just delaying the inevitable by way over charging and letting it slowly spill out until they have at the very least a Hung Jury.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-31-21, 09:39
But HOW is it negligent?
They....
-Called for an Ambulance at first opportunity
-Used department approved restraint techniques
-Never overtly used hard hands or impact devices
-Immediately gave him over to EMS for treatment
You have to prove OVERT negligence beyond “oh he died in custody”. The what is not as germane as the HOW.
He overdosed and there was nothing the officers could do for him.
A man died when he was your responsibility. You can argue that nothing could have saved him, but experts, pseudo-experts, and little girls all told you to do something, and they did nothing. EMS is late; tough shit. Floyd was an unhealthy dumbass criminal- uh, duh. Priests and cops aren’t doing it right if they are dealing with the saved and innocent.
I understand if you want to say Chauvin isn’t guilty of these charges, I can see that-the specific of the charges. but guilty or not guilty he was responsible for his detainee and he failed.
If people think that the jurors are going to parse out the path against these charges and then defend that for the rest of their lives, you are on crack. Maybe you get a hung jury.
A man died when he was your responsibility. You can argue that nothing could have saved him, but experts, pseudo-experts, and little girls all told you to do something, and they did nothing. EMS is late; tough shit. Floyd was an unhealthy dumbass criminal- uh, duh. Priests and cops aren’t doing it right if they are dealing with the saved and innocent.
I understand if you want to say Chauvin isn’t guilty of these charges, I can see that-the specific of the charges. but guilty or not guilty he was responsible for his detainee and he failed.
If people think that the jurors are going to parse out the path against these charges and then defend that for the rest of their lives, you are on crack. Maybe you get a hung jury.
We all better hope they do or the justice system as we know it is done. Just have trials on Facebook and go with public opinion at the time.
A man died when he was your responsibility. You can argue that nothing could have saved him, but experts, pseudo-experts, and little girls all told you to do something, and they did nothing. EMS is late; tough shit. Floyd was an unhealthy dumbass criminal- uh, duh. Priests and cops aren’t doing it right if they are dealing with the saved and innocent.
I understand if you want to say Chauvin isn’t guilty of these charges, I can see that-the specific of the charges. but guilty or not guilty he was responsible for his detainee and he failed.
If people think that the jurors are going to parse out the path against these charges and then defend that for the rest of their lives, you are on crack. Maybe you get a hung jury.
Wow. You....you can’t be serious. Please tell me you aren’t serious.
You genuinely have no working nor even layman's understanding of how public safety works. Do you?
People die in custody all the time with absolutely no foul play. Someone has a heart attack. Someone has an undetectable aneurysm. Someone just plain ran out of gas.
You are attempting, quite feebly, to ascribe a high and impossible standard to police. I don’t even know with the amount he took and the poly nature of the drugs in question that if Chauvin and co were also Buckaroo f’ing Banzai levels of trauma surgeons and had a portable magic ER, as well as the gifts of teleportation and telepathy that they could have gotten him stomach pumped and Narcaned in time.
You DO realize that the officers had an obligation to protect the Public from Floyd as much as provide TO THE EXTENT REASONABLE AND FEASIBLE care to Floyd.
They didn’t have much to work with once he swallowed it. Man if you work drugs for at least 3-4 years, you WILL eventually see someone get the bright idea to swallow pills or dope and then die as a result. A lot of times if you see an officer put someone in what looks like a chokehold while they are trying to swallow dope, they aren’t trying to “preserve evidence” as much as preserve the person.
It’s a total hell of a thing to see a young person do something stupid like that and then try to get them to puke it out while pleading with Jesus. And then they don’t make it.
But see I feel like you haven’t ever had to do that.
Maybe you should stay in your lane on this one.
ChattanoogaPhil
03-31-21, 10:38
This is his most lesser charge
609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:
(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or
(2) by shooting another with a firearm or other dangerous weapon as a result of negligently believing the other to be a deer or other animal; or
(3) by setting a spring gun, pit fall, deadfall, snare, or other like dangerous weapon or device; or
(4) by negligently or intentionally permitting any animal, known by the person to have vicious propensities or to have caused great or substantial bodily harm in the past, to run uncontrolled off the owner's premises, or negligently failing to keep it properly confined; or
(5) by committing or attempting to commit a violation of section 609.378 (neglect or endangerment of a child), and murder in the first, second, or third degree is not committed thereby.
If proven by a preponderance of the evidence, it shall be an affirmative defense to criminal liability under clause (4) that the victim provoked the animal to cause the victim's death.
Okay let’s look at the most relevant part of that statute
Where was the unreasonable risk? Chauvin used then Department approved restraint techniques.
Floyd has to be responsible for HIS OWN ACTIONS too. He was passively resistant and non-compliant.
He would not sit upright. He was unruly and unpredictable. Had he not taken the Fentanyl he could have attacked a bystander. It was MORE THAN REASONABLE to restrain him. The pathology doesn’t lie. He had no pressure on his neck.
He overdosed. His Floyd overdosing Chauvin’s fault?
-------------------------
Neck restraint was an approved technique but conditional. 'Passively resistant' isn't one of those conditions according to Department policy as reported May 2020: Neck restraint is allowed on those who are actively resisting, not passively resisting.
https://i.imgur.com/IHsyCM5.png
How is continuing to apply neck restraint to someone who is motionless/unresponsive Department approved?
https://i.imgur.com/KtDttKk.png
More from EMT Karen...
https://www.foxnews.com/us/live-updates-derek-chauvin-trial-resumes-minneapolis-firefighter-george-floyd
"There was a man being killed," Hansen, who testified in her dress uniform and detailed her emergency medical technician training, said in court Tuesday. "I would have been able to provide medical attention to the best of my abilities. And this human was denied that right."
I still can't figure out if she was there as a bystander (in which case, she had no duty to act), or in a professional capacity. In either case, based on her statement, she'd be nuclear to me. Not only would I not ride with her, I'd make her life a living hell.
BoringGuy45
03-31-21, 13:25
No matter what happens, the left will not be satisfied. There's no way they're going to give up their narrative that it is literally 100% impossible for a black man to get justice in this country. They can't allow there to be any hope for our current system. If Chauvin gets off on the murder charges but not the manslaughter charge, there will be riots. Even if Chauvin gets convicted on all charges, they'll protest if they think the jury took too long to deliberate. Even if the jury returns with a verdict in under an hour, they'll protest because they'll claim that he should have just been hanged without a trial.
I'm think that, more than anything, they are hoping that Chauvin gets off, so that they can justify more severe violence. Last summer, they pushed the narrative that burning down buildings, looting, and using non-lethal force against their enemies was necessary because peace wasn't working. You have to know they're itching to claim that this trial proved that it wasn't enough, and now they have no choice but to kill.
Averageman
03-31-21, 15:03
More from EMT Karen...
I still can't figure out if she was there as a bystander (in which case, she had no duty to act), or in a professional capacity. In either case, based on her statement, she'd be nuclear to me. Not only would I not ride with her, I'd make her life a living hell.
Just my opinion, but if you can help, but choose not to, perhaps you need to throttle back on the decision to become a witness?
Anyone working with her needs to understand she folds like a $5.00 card table when it suits her.
Sometimes when stuff goes a little sideways, it's not what happened that gets you. It's the way the half baked "Experts" working with you interpret what happened or what they think they saw when they talk behind your back.
I got, got one time like that and it still pisses me off.
No matter what happens, the left will not be satisfied. There's no way they're going to give up their narrative that it is literally 100% impossible for a black man to get justice in this country. They can't allow there to be any hope for our current system. If Chauvin gets off on the murder charges but not the manslaughter charge, there will be riots. Even if Chauvin gets convicted on all charges, they'll protest if they think the jury took too long to deliberate. Even if the jury returns with a verdict in under an hour, they'll protest because they'll claim that he should have just been hanged without a trial.
I'm think that, more than anything, they are hoping that Chauvin gets off, so that they can justify more severe violence. Last summer, they pushed the narrative that burning down buildings, looting, and using non-lethal force against their enemies was necessary because peace wasn't working. You have to know they're itching to claim that this trial proved that it wasn't enough, and now they have no choice but to kill.
There will be riots or peaceful protests unless the outcome has Chauvin being dragged around by the balls, then hung, chopped up and his remains burned ....and still won't satisfy people.
Lose lose situation
ChattanoogaPhil
03-31-21, 18:29
Just my opinion, but if you can help, but choose not to, perhaps you need to throttle back on the decision to become a witness?
Anyone working with her needs to understand she folds like a $5.00 card table when it suits her.
Sometimes when stuff goes a little sideways, it's not what happened that gets you. It's the way the half baked "Experts" working with you interpret what happened or what they think they saw when they talk behind your back.
I got, got one time like that and it still pisses me off.
Hansen was the off-duty firefighter. When she came on the scene she identified herself as such. One of the LEOs asked if she was actually a firefighter to which she replied yes. She was then told she should know to stay away and was told to get back to the sidewalk. She repeatedly said that Floyd's pulse needed to be checked which apparently was ignored by the LEOs. It wasn't that she 'chose' not to help, but was told to stay away. It's on video.
There will be riots again without a doubt. Hopefully they are bad enough that I will get more time to work from home versus going in since I work Downtown Minneapolis. With that said, Floyd is a POS that cost himself his life through drug use, not complying with directions and being a career dirtbag. It is without a doubt that Chauvin and fellow officers were negligent with the handling of Floyd once he was on the ground. There was no need to a knee to the neck regardless of training. I worked long enough in juvenile corrections to know when the restraint fits the situation.
Let them riot. The more they do, the more they wake the sleeping giant.
I'm not on board with convicting a man of murder, when he didn't murder anyone, because of peer pressure, or fear of riots, or because it fits a communist narrative. If people want to riot over that, then we can deal with them too.
Even worse is jury intimidation. That can't be allowed to happen if we want to maintain any sort of civilization here. If things devolve into a free-for-all, the left is going to get the short end of that stick.
I call Bullshit.
If someone has been wigging out and is not predictably controllable and you have them subdued; you keep them there until you can get them loaded and gone.
They have full video. He actively keeps from being properly seated in the backseat.
I maintain that they did the only thing they could with what they had at the time. It’s called the Reasonableness Standard. There’s no hard and fast time limit. You have to look at the totality of the circumstances.
Chauvin and Co were the farthest thing from negligent here. They were more than correct to turn away EMT Karen. She was not readily identifiable as EMT, had no equipment, and was simply in no position to do anything or volunteer. This isn’t Doogie Howser where someone says “I’m a Doctor” and fixes some rando dudes problem. That doesn’t happen.
Per Juvenile Corrections, you are severely limited in what you can do with a Juvenile. It is absolutely not the same as real police work.
There is too much case law here justifying their actions. Also WTF is checking his pulse going to do? When he’s talking he’s obviously communicative. When unconscious, what can they do at that point? If someone has depressed lung function, they need to be intubated. Not just CPR. CPR is not pretty and you will probably break a rib if you do it for too long.
The officers DO NOT INTUBATE. EMT Karen couldn’t intubate either because A. Off duty B. Not a real Paramedic C. A Dumbass.
All these FCKING EXPERTS here with shit for brains because of virtue signaling or trying to keep their last oreo black friend by trying to find some small hang up to blame the police on.
A piece of shit died. Big deal. Happens literally every day. I would actually argue that the world is better off. Had they not hooked wagons to Floyd or Armed Robbery er Ahmaud Arbery then it’d be somebody else.
You’re doing their hard work for them and no you aren’t being a Freedom Loving Patriot by virtue signaling.
Screw these people.
I call Bullshit.
If someone has been wigging out and is not predictably controllable and you have them subdued; you keep them there until you can get them loaded and gone.
They have full video. He actively keeps from being properly seated in the backseat.
I maintain that they did the only thing they could with what they had at the time. It’s called the Reasonableness Standard. There’s no hard and fast time limit. You have to look at the totality of the circumstances.
Chauvin and Co were the farthest thing from negligent here. They were more than correct to turn away EMT Karen. She was not readily identifiable as EMT, had no equipment, and was simply in no position to do anything or volunteer. This isn’t Doogie Howser where someone says “I’m a Doctor” and fixes some rando dudes problem. That doesn’t happen.
Per Juvenile Corrections, you are severely limited in what you can do with a Juvenile. It is absolutely not the same as real police work.
There is too much case law here justifying their actions. Also WTF is checking his pulse going to do? When he’s talking he’s obviously communicative. When unconscious, what can they do at that point? If someone has depressed lung function, they need to be intubated. Not just CPR. CPR is not pretty and you will probably break a rib if you do it for too long.
The officers DO NOT INTUBATE. EMT Karen couldn’t intubate either because A. Off duty B. Not a real Paramedic C. A Dumbass.
All these FCKING EXPERTS here with shit for brains because of virtue signaling or trying to keep their last oreo black friend by trying to find some small hang up to blame the police on.
A piece of shit died. Big deal. Happens literally every day. I would actually argue that the world is better off. Had they not hooked wagons to Floyd or Armed Robbery er Ahmaud Arbery then it’d be somebody else.
You’re doing their hard work for them and no you aren’t being a Freedom Loving Patriot by virtue signaling.
Screw these people.
I’m not a cop, but this and FF’s other posts in this thread make complete sense. The other side’s narrative, not so much.
BoringGuy45
03-31-21, 23:02
Let them riot. The more they do, the more they wake the sleeping giant.
I'm not on board with convicting a man of murder, when he didn't murder anyone, because of peer pressure, or fear of riots, or because it fits a communist narrative. If people want to riot over that, then we can deal with them too.
Even worse is jury intimidation. That can't be allowed to happen if we want to maintain any sort of civilization here. If things devolve into a free-for-all, the left is going to get the short end of that stick.
I was trying to explain this to someone: If Chauvin is going to go down, he needs to go down the right way. The evidence needs to objectively show that he caused Floyd's death, either maliciously, recklessly, or negligently. The reply was, "We can't take any more unrest. It would just be best for him to go down. He's an asshole anyway." I said "Yeah, but so is OJ Simpson." If the evidence doesn't prove the crime, he has to walk. If we convict him just to appease the masses, we might as well get rid of the justice system completely. Let the crowd decide.
Straight Shooter
03-31-21, 23:57
Jury know they and theirs will be targeted and the country will burn if he is found not guilty.
I believe this & this ALONE will be the reason the cop is found guilty. Those jurors KNOW theyll never have a minutes peace otherwise.
FIREFLY- I disagree alot with you on some things..but on this subject you are spot on, even tho I think the outcome will be different than youve predicted..and I HOPE you are right. I like your insight on this,
and if it werent for the threats made against the jurors I believe he would be found not guilty.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-01-21, 01:21
We've had enough threads and discussion on the overall discussion. I'd like to trend back to the actual case, law, witnesses, exhibits and strategies of the actual case as it plays out. Not looking for what should happen, but what happened, and why in the trial.
I frankly think the prosecution has put on a crappy case so far. Not that impactful of an opening statement. Witnesses that are obviously biased and have agendas.
The defense hasn't really shined very well. Maybe the strategy is to move along as fast as they can. When the EMT twit said that she had never seen a crowd hostile to cops... really, in MN? The defense seemed to not know what to do with that.
I call Bullshit.
If someone has been wigging out and is not predictably controllable and you have them subdued; you keep them there until you can get them loaded and gone.
They have full video. He actively keeps from being properly seated in the backseat.
I maintain that they did the only thing they could with what they had at the time. It’s called the Reasonableness Standard. There’s no hard and fast time limit. You have to look at the totality of the circumstances.
Chauvin and Co were the farthest thing from negligent here. They were more than correct to turn away EMT Karen. She was not readily identifiable as EMT, had no equipment, and was simply in no position to do anything or volunteer. This isn’t Doogie Howser where someone says “I’m a Doctor” and fixes some rando dudes problem. That doesn’t happen.
Per Juvenile Corrections, you are severely limited in what you can do with a Juvenile. It is absolutely not the same as real police work.
There is too much case law here justifying their actions. Also WTF is checking his pulse going to do? When he’s talking he’s obviously communicative. When unconscious, what can they do at that point? If someone has depressed lung function, they need to be intubated. Not just CPR. CPR is not pretty and you will probably break a rib if you do it for too long.
The officers DO NOT INTUBATE. EMT Karen couldn’t intubate either because A. Off duty B. Not a real Paramedic C. A Dumbass.
All these FCKING EXPERTS here with shit for brains because of virtue signaling or trying to keep their last oreo black friend by trying to find some small hang up to blame the police on.
A piece of shit died. Big deal. Happens literally every day. I would actually argue that the world is better off. Had they not hooked wagons to Floyd or Armed Robbery er Ahmaud Arbery then it’d be somebody else.
You’re doing their hard work for them and no you aren’t being a Freedom Loving Patriot by virtue signaling.
Screw these people.
Youi obviously never worked juvenile corrections. We could do more to restrain than many cops are allowed to do now. This includes hog-tying. As far as "real police work," corrections has never been confused with law enforcement.
As far as cops needing to do whatever to "subdue," I said "once Floyd was on the ground" he was not resisting and was dying from his over-dose. Knee to the neck was not needed at that point. You can tell by the mannerism of Chauvin in pics with knee to the neck that he was not really concerned and that Floyd was not resisting at that point.
ChattanoogaPhil
04-01-21, 06:49
As far as cops needing to do whatever to "subdue," I said "once Floyd was on the ground" he was not resisting and was dying from his over-dose. Knee to the neck was not needed at that point. You can tell by the mannerism of Chauvin in pics with knee to the neck that he was not really concerned and that Floyd was not resisting at that point.
Which begs the question... what justifies continued neck restraint on someone who is handcuffed, unresponsive and laying face down on the ground, particularly when Department policy does not even allow neck restraint when passively resisting? I'd like to hear the defense explain that. Not saying the knee on the neck caused his death, but whether or not Chauvin's actions were reasonable will be part of the equation required to get to a manslaughter conviction.
Youi obviously never worked juvenile corrections. We could do more to restrain than many cops are allowed to do now. This includes hog-tying. As far as "real police work," corrections has never been confused with law enforcement.
As far as cops needing to do whatever to "subdue," I said "once Floyd was on the ground" he was not resisting and was dying from his over-dose. Knee to the neck was not needed at that point. You can tell by the mannerism of Chauvin in pics with knee to the neck that he was not really concerned and that Floyd was not resisting at that point.
I’m sorry, sweetie. But I’m going to have to debunk this
We could do more to restrain than many cops are allowed to do now. This includes hog-tying.
No. No you can not. You absolutely under no circumstances are to hogtie youth. You cannot use anything beyond very limited soft hands.
To do otherwise is considered Child Abuse under the eyes of the law in pretty much every states. Youths are not even considered inmates. They are “Youths”, “Residents”, and occasionally “Detainees”, but not inmates. They are not adults and as such have several legal protections that keep them from being treated as such.
Knee to the neck was not needed at that point. You can tell by the mannerism of Chauvin in pics with knee to the neck that he was not really concerned and that Floyd was not resisting at that point
Arrests in the wild do not look like they do on SVU. Floyd had a noticeable size and weight advantage on Chauvin. It took a lot of work to get him restrained as he was feeling no pain. If you Internet detectives look at the actual photo, you will see that pretty much no weight was put on Floyd’s neck. This is well reflected in pathology.
Chauvin was at a position of rest while controlling and maintaining his suspect.
Do a 3 minute drill. Even if you are young and in shape it will sap you of your energy.
Officers get tired. Officers try to rest when they can. Suspects have been known to play possum and play to the crowd. Floyd would not allow himself to be seated and they just wanted to hand him off to EMS.
The Prosecution is presenting nothing but emotions, theatrics, and drama. No real substantive evidence of malice murder or manslaughter.
If you have to cuck to keep your last black friend then he wasn’t really your friend to begin with.
If you are willing to sacrifice a few men doing their jobs to keep people from rioting then that is what’s known as being a quisling and it’s pretty hard to pass oneself off as a freedom loving, gun hauling Patriot if you’re willing to Buddy-Fudge four men you don’t know so you don’t make the black kids angry.
And even doubly disturbing is the number of people here who stated that despite any relevant or exonerating facts; they too would burn Chauvin to “save their families”
Gee. Funny how that works. I guess if you gotta zap somebody with your awesome tactical M4 that such a scenario is “different” and you shouldn’t be placed under scrutiny.
No. Never. Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.
Business_Casual
04-01-21, 07:00
Surprise the guy in the car with Floyd takes the Fifth.
"I could hear him pleading, ‘Please, officer, what’s all this for?’" he said.
An official said Hall initially gave a false name to officers after Floyd's death. He then left Minneapolis and was tracked down in Texas and arrested due to outstanding warrants for felony possession of a firearm, felony domestic assault, and felony drug possession, the paper reported.
I’m sorry, sweetie. But I’m going to have to debunk this
No. No you can not. You absolutely under no circumstances are to hogtie youth. You cannot use anything beyond very limited soft hands.
To do otherwise is considered Child Abuse under the eyes of the law in pretty much every states. Youths are not even considered inmates. They are “Youths”, “Residents”, and occasionally “Detainees”, but not inmates. They are not adults and as such have several legal protections that keep them from being treated as such.
Arrests in the wild do not look like they do on SVU. Floyd had a noticeable size and weight advantage on Chauvin. It took a lot of work to get him restrained as he was feeling no pain. If you Internet detectives look at the actual photo, you will see that pretty much no weight was put on Floyd’s neck. This is well reflected in pathology.
Chauvin was at a position of rest while controlling and maintaining his suspect.
Do a 3 minute drill. Even if you are young and in shape it will sap you of your energy.
Officers get tired. Officers try to rest when they can. Suspects have been known to play possum and play to the crowd. Floyd would not allow himself to be seated and they just wanted to hand him off to EMS.
The Prosecution is presenting nothing but emotions, theatrics, and drama. No real substantive evidence of malice murder or manslaughter.
If you have to cuck to keep your last black friend then he wasn’t really your friend to begin with.
If you are willing to sacrifice a few men doing their jobs to keep people from rioting then that is what’s known as being a quisling and it’s pretty hard to pass oneself off as a freedom loving, gun hauling Patriot if you’re willing to Buddy-Fudge four men you don’t know so you don’t make the black kids angry.
And even doubly disturbing is the number of people here who stated that despite any relevant or exonerating facts; they too would burn Chauvin to “save their families”
Gee. Funny how that works. I guess if you gotta zap somebody with your awesome tactical M4 that such a scenario is “different” and you shouldn’t be placed under scrutiny.
No. Never. Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.
Wow, certainly hit a sore spot with you little guy. lol
I’m sorry, sweetie. But I’m going to have to debunk this
No. No you can not. You absolutely under no circumstances are to hogtie youth. You cannot use anything beyond very limited soft hands.
To do otherwise is considered Child Abuse under the eyes of the law in pretty much every states. Youths are not even considered inmates. They are “Youths”, “Residents”, and occasionally “Detainees”, but not inmates. They are not adults and as such have several legal protections that keep them from being treated as such.
Arrests in the wild do not look like they do on SVU. Floyd had a noticeable size and weight advantage on Chauvin. It took a lot of work to get him restrained as he was feeling no pain. If you Internet detectives look at the actual photo, you will see that pretty much no weight was put on Floyd’s neck. This is well reflected in pathology.
Chauvin was at a position of rest while controlling and maintaining his suspect.
Do a 3 minute drill. Even if you are young and in shape it will sap you of your energy.
Officers get tired. Officers try to rest when they can. Suspects have been known to play possum and play to the crowd. Floyd would not allow himself to be seated and they just wanted to hand him off to EMS.
The Prosecution is presenting nothing but emotions, theatrics, and drama. No real substantive evidence of malice murder or manslaughter.
If you have to cuck to keep your last black friend then he wasn’t really your friend to begin with.
If you are willing to sacrifice a few men doing their jobs to keep people from rioting then that is what’s known as being a quisling and it’s pretty hard to pass oneself off as a freedom loving, gun hauling Patriot if you’re willing to Buddy-Fudge four men you don’t know so you don’t make the black kids angry.
And even doubly disturbing is the number of people here who stated that despite any relevant or exonerating facts; they too would burn Chauvin to “save their families”
Gee. Funny how that works. I guess if you gotta zap somebody with your awesome tactical M4 that such a scenario is “different” and you shouldn’t be placed under scrutiny.
No. Never. Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.
Wow, certainly hit a sore spot with you little guy. lol
I'm not watching the trial closely, just reading press reports. From what I can tell it sounds like ZERO evidence thus far. "I seen dat and it make me feels bad for poor lil Dindu Nuffin.", is that evidence?
Firefighter SJW beyotch, is she actually an EMT? I'm not seeing that, and her testimony did not sound like "officer A was kneeling in such a way as to cause (insert bad medical stuff here), I offered to monitor ... She boobed and whined but no facts.
The prosecution ought to just be honest. Throw up some video of last year's rioting and burning. Then, "ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I ask you to convict the accused. Otherwise imma send these folks to your house!"
I have no expertise here, but I'd think end of the day it hinges on the autopsy and stated cause of death, which are conflicting apparently, and which expert testimony they believe. May also means the jury left with some doubt. The jury may conclude cause of death was OD, but Chauvin negligent in not addressing the situation sooner and how compelling a case the prosecution can make for that one, and if the defense can counter it using SOP and case law. Not sure what the jury is allowed to consider for charges there.
Adding: Personally, while Chauvin could have, and probably should have, checked on Floyd, It did not amount to a murder and if the tox reports accurate, a dead man walking anyway it sounds. Maybe, had Floyed not resisted, and he'd gone unconscious on the drive to booking, and they'd taken him straight to the hospital/met up with EMT, etc, he'd have survived. We will never know.
The prosecution ought to just be honest. Throw up some video of last year's rioting and burning. Then, "ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I ask you to convict the accused. Otherwise imma send these folks to your house!"
This is ultimately part of the goal.
Remember last November when the commercials ran those, frankly ominous, ads “Who you vote for is secret,but whether or not you vote is public record”
That and talk of “Social Credit Scores” and “Covid Passports”. It’s all pre-planned, pre-ordained instrumentation for societal control. The police did nothing wrong and no George Floyd was not a Civil Rights hero. It was just good timing. The one police action that really upset me that I couldn’t rationalize nor excuse was the kid begging on the floor not to be shot and Mr. Hero lit him up anyways. I also didn’t like the Philando Castile shoot. But overall the Police get it right way more than they get it wrong.
A black male in America has an exponential higher risk of getting killed by a fellow black male than a police officer. Realistically speaking most Non-Black folks know that you will either A. Get a ticket and deal with it on Court day or B. Catch that ride, call any lawyer for time being, SHUT YOUR GODDAMNED MOUTH, and bond out and roll. If what you did is so minor, these days you get a Recognizance Bond. Basically just giving your word you’ll come to court.
The side of the road is not to be Johnny Cochrane or Rosa Parks. You weren’t stopped for being black. Nobody cares about your personal problems. Just sign the shit and go. Quit speeding or running dope. Not hard.
Regardless, the point is that they are trying to control:
-What you think
-Where you go
-What you do
-How you communicate and buy things
This is mob rule. It’s the “Name and Shame” game.
It’s working because cancel culture is taking off.
If you don’t like something, don’t bother with it. I mean I tell younger People that we are NOTICEABLY less free now than 20 years ago.
In contrast, about the time of Ferguson we had a shooting in SLC. Black cop shot and killed an unarmed white guy. Cop cleared, returned to duty.
Ever hear of it? Did you hear about the riots?
In contrast, about the time of Ferguson we had a shooting in SLC. Black cop shot and killed an unarmed white guy. Cop cleared, returned to duty.
Ever hear of it? Did you hear about the riots?
No. It didn’t fit the narrative. Maybe it’s because I say Snyder Cut but just once I want to see riots taken to the ghettoes where crack houses are burned and dope boys are gunned down in the street.
An orgy of pent up anger and violence followed by a normal orgy.
I wanna get my Insurgent Joker on so bad some days it’s not funny.
https://i.redd.it/xywqh9s1glh61.jpg
Not that I'm saying the SLC shoot was a bad shoot. There were a few questions, but there always are. Investigation called it justified.
And obviously there were no riots. ;)
BoringGuy45
04-01-21, 11:20
Do a 3 minute drill. Even if you are young and in shape it will sap you of your energy.
Officers get tired. Officers try to rest when they can.
I was so sapped of energy after I did that drill I literally had vertigo and could barely stand. My lungs were absolutely on fire!
Everybody should do a 3 minute drill. You can't even begin to understand what goes into subduing a resisting suspect who is bigger and more impervious to pain than you until you fight the man in red!
I was so sapped of energy after I did that drill I literally had vertigo and could barely stand. My lungs were absolutely on fire!
Everybody should do a 3 minute drill. You can't even begin to understand what goes into subduing a resisting suspect who is bigger and more impervious to pain than you until you fight the man in red!
Three minutes of pure anaerobic hustle. Also did drills like this in Duane Dieter's CQD. Smoke-fest.
Yeah, whats a 3 min drill?
Filtering out the guys who didn't play basketball in HS. ;)
AKA baselines, back and forths, ...
Filtering out the guys who didn't play basketball in HS. ;)
AKA baselines, back and forths, ...
There is also a 3x3 minute drill in MMA, a 3 minute qualification drill for ASP baton certification, and I am sure many more.
Plus you normally don't "fight the man in red" in basketball.
i know a pretty short combatives sparring session would about wear me out when I was both younger and more athletic.
Andy
A 3-minute drill can vary a bit, but basically you have an out-of-control, difficult to control suspect who is trying to kick your ass, and you have to control him. The Asp drill, almost the same thing, you have a guy in a big protect suit, he's trying to take you down and you have to use a pretend Asp to whack him about.
A 3-minute drill can vary a bit, but basically you have an out-of-control, difficult to control suspect who is trying to kick your ass, and you have to control him. The Asp drill, almost the same thing, you have a guy in a big protect suit, he's trying to take you down and you have to use a pretend Asp to whack him about.
Ok my bust. We used to do sprints and bend like boots to get our pulse up/breath out/... prior to playing in the MOUT houses. I thought fly was talking about that kind of thing.
Ok my bust. We used to do sprints and bend like boots to get our pulse up/breath out/... prior to playing in the MOUT houses. I thought fly was talking about that kind of thing.
Cops running!?!??!! WTF were you thinking? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
;)
Ok my bust. We used to do sprints and bend like boots to get our pulse up/breath out/... prior to playing in the MOUT houses. I thought fly was talking about that kind of thing.
Different technique, same ass kicking.
So back to topic, I read today was a mixed bag of testimony. Responding medic testimony and partial (end game) video were said to be pretty damning. The girlfriend talking about heavy drug use, including a prior OD, by Floyd seems like an odd thing for the prosecutor to present.
So back to topic, I read today was a mixed bag of testimony. Responding medic testimony and partial (end game) video were said to be pretty damning. The girlfriend talking about heavy drug use, including a prior OD, by Floyd seems like an odd thing for the prosecutor to present.
Perhaps setting the stage to later claim 'No way the drugs killed this guy - He did a ton of those regularly for a good while and it never killed him before...'.
ChattanoogaPhil
04-02-21, 00:00
Chauvin's supervisor, Sgt Plouger, testified today-- "It would be reasonable to put a knee on someone's neck until they were not resisting anymore, but it should stop when they are no longer combative," he said.
At this point in the trial, my guess is that the jury is convinced that Chauvin was not acting in accordance with Department policy. Whether that makes him culpable in Floyd's death will be a tougher sell.
Chauvin's supervisor, Sgt Plouger, testified today-- "It would be reasonable to put a knee on someone's neck until they were not resisting anymore, but it should stop when they are no longer combative," he said.
At this point in the trial, my guess is that the jury is convinced that Chauvin was not acting in accordance with Department policy. Whether that makes him culpable in Floyd's death will be a tougher sell.
This is what I was waiting for. Everything else is noise. Whether or not he killed the guy (it seems profoundly obvious he did not), he made it look like he did, and the jury will assume that if the drugs hadn’t killed him, the knee would.
Sargey-poo is being political. Hard Floyd not taken a fatal dose, he could have easily rocked Chauvin’s world.
And you DO realize that department policy =\= State Law, yes? You do know that right?
Sargey-poo gave his opinion. Under Graham v. Conner you MUST look at what the officer knew at the time. Not what you know now. Seriously, do some homework and think. Look up Graham v. Conner. Read the whole totality of it.
All Chauvin could see is someone with a height and weight advantage acting erratically and being hard to control.
Policework is not Cops and Robbers where you can “call time” and the police magically have to give you benefit of the doubt.
No.
I mean again, everybody wants to just convict the officers to stop riots. This is why you all would not survive a race war/civil war/boogaloo.
Maybe you run them five miles, maybe you have the toys.
But these people are stronger than you because they have no regard for human life or civilization. If you find yourself saying “well I’ll only defend myself” or “I’ll just move someplace whiter”.
No.
These people have no problem killing you. They don’t think three days ahead. They are governed by emotion and mob mentality.
You lack the social homogeneity to really have any check or balances to the mob waves.
You’re delaying the inevitable by borrowing time on credit.
This is all part of the plan. DC looks like a DMZ and you have people elsewhere fretting that “the blacks are coming for us. Better do the ‘right thing’ I guess”
A lot of this is out of the literal Bolshevik playbook. Redefine institutional law enforcement, beset a burgeoning, over represented minority against a capital majority, create a sense of urgency in demand of revolution, and bammo....the country you die in is different than the country you were born in.
And no the Republicans will not help you
So....we will see. It’s all a big Rorschach test.
And you’re failing
You go from a thoughtful review of the evidence presented from the viewpoint of an experienced officer to a broad brush of "you all want to see him convicted to stop the riots".
I value your insights into the trial more than I can express.
Its pretty safe to say that before the second or third funeral for Floyd wrapped, the majority of people here clearly understood that he was not murdered by a police officer.
I am pretty cynical and believe Chauvin is screwed, at best there may be a hung jury or mistrial. It doesn't mean that I think he should be found guilty to placate the masses.
I have nothing to lose if race riots sweep across the big cities, I wasn't affected before and won't be now. The folks who live there made the burning bed, let them lie in it.
Minneapolis will just be the next Detroit, IDGAF.
In truth, we only see mass riots now if it serves to advance the leftist agenda, and the Dems and mainstream media are going to kick off riots soon anyway.
Andy
Well.... Quote the Zen Master, “We’ll see”.
I got a feeling he will likely walk. You’d be surprised how a Jury can come together which is why prosecution tries to avoid them. Everybody is a slogan or cause until you’re looking another person in the eye.
Or he may well not. I do think the Prosecution is weak.
Somebody the other day said “This is the OJ trial for White People”. I guess. I find it interesting because this will likely overrule Rodney King in terms of the long term effects it will have on LE.
I do think that, Win, Lose, or Draw the pendulum will shift towards LEs favour again by the time Kamala the Cop takes over.
I think the law seems to be largely on Chauvin's side. Either way, win or lose, he's ****ed. If he wins, no career, target on his back...he's toxic. If he loses, life in prison may get him killed.
The jury, if they are true to being objective to the evidence, will acquit or NG. But they gotta live there, we don't. If they feel intimidated, they'll throw him in prison to get the heat of their backs.
I agree with Firefly, I think we'll see the pendulum swing back from the anti-LE crowd. Some places are already moving the needle; previously all about 'defund the police', actually requesting more funding and additional positions.
Officer Chauvin will find himself in the same position as Ferguson Officer Darren Wilson. If the jury follows the law during deliberations, he may be found not guilty. Legally justified in his use of force or not, Officer Chauvin will be offered up as a political sacrifice.
The unfortunate side effect is good police officers with a lot of experience are retiring as early as possible in our area. We are also seeing officers who volunteer to work on crowd control teams and SWAT leaving those positions.
Officer Chauvin will find himself in the same position as Ferguson Officer Darren Wilson. If the jury follows the law during deliberations, he may be found not guilty. Legally justified in his use of force or not, Officer Chauvin will be offered up as a political sacrifice.
The unfortunate side effect is good police officers with a lot of experience are retiring as early as possible in our area. We are also seeing officers who volunteer to work on crowd control teams and SWAT leaving those positions.
A sad side effect of all this is that I’m seeing newer and newer people being used as Crash Dummies to fill these sort of bleeding units. A mixture of the rookie “Make mom proud snd save the world” mentality , an innocent lack of experience, and a need to fill spots is going to lead to some serious heartache eventually.
To the people retiring now, Mazeltov! Must be nice.
A sad side effect of all this is that I’m seeing newer and newer people being used as Crash Dummies to fill these sort of bleeding units. A mixture of the rookie “Make mom proud snd save the world” mentality , an innocent lack of experience, and a need to fill spots is going to lead to some serious heartache eventually.
To the people retiring now, Mazeltov! Must be nice.
No different than the military, right? You can't mass produce certain specialties, but at the same time, if you can't fill the spots, you cut corner and lower standards, or you work your people to death.
ChattanoogaPhil
04-02-21, 10:19
Sgt. Ploeger also testified why someone is moved to their side and off their chest to aid in breathing. At least one officer at the scene can be heard asking about moving Floyd on his side. Instead, Chauvin continued to keep Floyd pinned face-down to the ground with his knee on the neck.
I found the paramedic testimony interesting. Upon arriving at the scene, the initial observation was that Floyd was not moving, not breathing nor had a pulse "In layman's terms, dead". Someone who is observably dead hardly meets the characterization of "combative" for reasonable use of force as Sgt Ploeger testified.
Sgt. Ploeger also testified why someone is moved to their side and off their chest to aid in breathing. At least one officer at the scene can be heard asking about moving Floyd on his side. Instead, Chauvin continued to keep Floyd pinned face-down to the ground with his knee on the neck.
I found the paramedic testimony interesting. Upon arriving at the scene, the initial observation was that Floyd was not moving, not breathing nor had a pulse "In layman's terms, dead". Someone who is observably dead hardly meets the characterization of "combative" for reasonable use of force as Sgt Ploeger testified.
Well swallowing a shit load of fentanyl will kill you so I don’t know why everyone is surprised that he died.
ChattanoogaPhil
04-02-21, 11:38
Well swallowing a shit load of fentanyl will kill you so I don’t know why everyone is surprised that he died.
There was testimony that Floyd was a long time drug addict. My guess is that the jury is going to repeatedly hear something to the effect that Floyd survived years of drug abuse but didn't survive nine minutes under the knee of Chauvin.
There was testimony that Floyd was a long time drug addict. My guess is that the jury is going to repeatedly hear something to the effect that Floyd survived years of drug abuse but didn't survive nine minutes under the knee of Chauvin.
That is weak and stupid route to go. Junkies OD everyone day.
That is weak and stupid route to go. Junkies OD everyone day.
They don't OD and die until they OD and die.
If we weren’t handing out narcan like candy it would be even more. Kinda wish there was a nationwide shortage of that.
If we weren’t handing out narcan like candy it would be even more. Kinda wish there was a nationwide shortage of that.
I thought they did at one point. I think there should be a three strikes you're out rule on that one. ER doc I know said he revives a handful of the same people almost weekly.
An LT throwing his fellow LEO under the bus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2gmj9CM6ug
ChattanoogaPhil
04-02-21, 14:46
Lt. Richard Zimmerman's testimony touched on many of the issues being discussed here. The only thing missing from the vid was a screenshot of the defense reaching for a Rolaids.
I'm a little confused by the Lt's testimony. Maybe some of it is missing? Does he testify that Chauvin's actions were outside of policy and also did he testify that Chauvin's actions were actually excessive force even though he wasn't striking Floyd but passively restraining him with no actual physical damage? It really sounded like he was testifying he just didn't like what he saw, but is that the same as stating for fact that Chauvin broke the law? Not sure I worded this correctly.
I'm a little confused by the Lt's testimony. Maybe some of it is missing? Does he testify that Chauvin's actions were outside of policy and also did he testify that Chauvin's actions were actually excessive force even though he wasn't striking Floyd but passively restraining him with no actual physical damage? It really sounded like he was testifying he just didn't like what he saw, but is that the same as stating for fact that Chauvin broke the law? Not sure I worded this correctly.
At least around here any physical contact with a person is a level of force. Grabbing, handcuffing, holding, pushing, punching, shooting etc... are all different levels of force. Some have argued that even the presence of an officer can constitute force, though I disagree with that.
If one were to say that Chauvin was intentionally pressing his knee into Floyds neck then that would be excessive force in my opinion. If you were to say that Chauvin was using a technique to hold down and restrain Floyd who was previously resisting and struggling, then in my opinion that would not be excessive force. That isnt to say that I believe the restraint technique used was a good idea, ie.. see my previous post about positional asphyxiation.
BoringGuy45
04-02-21, 18:25
I thought they did at one point. I think there should be a three strikes you're out rule on that one. ER doc I know said he revives a handful of the same people almost weekly.
Now that I've worked in drug rehab, I have a lot more empathy for addicts. Yes, they made a terrible decision to start using. Yes, huge part of their recovery is based on choice and willpower. And I have trouble sympathizing with those who refuse to quit because they simply don't want to; that is, the ones who recognize that it is a problem, but they've never had regard for anyone regardless of whether or not it has anything to do with drugs or not.
But addiction is a monster, and if you give up on someone trying to get clean, they'll give up on themselves. Almost everybody relapses multiple times on whatever they're hooked on. I have a client who was hooked on pain pills, heroin, crack, and booze for about ten years. It took her another 10 years of leaping forward and falling back, but she's finally clean, having kicked crack for the last time last summer, and booze this past December. She's now working her ass off trying to make up for lost time, doing job training, getting in shape, mending fences with friends and family. Today, she's 180 degrees from where she was even last year. This was because a few people didn't give up on her.
So, as a result, I'm a little more understanding when it comes to repeat narcan customers.
First of all, the medical examiner never stated that Floyd died as a result of Fentanyl. It only mentioned the presence of the drug in his system, along with methamphetamine and cannabis. The death was ruled a homicide by the ME, who explicitly refused to state that Fentanyl caused Floyd's death. I watched the bodycam footage of Officer Thomas Lane and I never saw Floyd swallow anything, which I believe members claimed to see several pages back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mflGauY3jwE
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-court-docs-say-george-floyd-had-fatal-level-of-fentanyl-in-his-system/ar-BB18pb0p
Second, I keep seeing members post that the neck kneel was necessary due to Floyd's noncompliance and physical size. That might've been true for the first minute or two, but not the remaining 7 minutes. Chauvin may have been smaller than Floyd, but he was in no way struggling to subdue Floyd for the majority of the time he had his knee on Floyd's neck. He looked pretty relaxed with his hands in his pockets. Hell, he's not even breathing heavily. In fact, judging by the shit-eating sneer on his face, he's enjoying it. While that alone isn't criminal, the casual nature of the neck kneel absolutely kills the argument that it was necessary due to Floyd's size or behavior at the time. And the weak argument collapses completely as Floyd becomes unresponsive. Yet Chauvin and the other officers refused to relent, roll him to his side to aid in breathing, or even check his pulse.
Just wondering, how does a 3 minute drill apply when you have 4 versus 1, and the 1 is in handcuffs already?
My take is that Chauvin murdered the guy. I've heard in the aftermath of this incident as well as Eric Garner that if you can talk you can breathe, but that's a half truth at best. The fact is that you can restrict someone's airway for several minutes and they're going to become unconscious even if they can talk at first. If I smother someone with a pillow they can yell for help at first, but it's still murder.
The testimony of the Lt should remove all doubt that Chauvin's behavior was unnecessary force. Y'all gonna argue that the Lt is placating the mob too?
First of all, the medical examiner never stated that Floyd died as a result of Fentanyl. It only mentioned the presence of the drug in his system, along with methamphetamine and cannabis. The death was ruled a homicide by the ME, who explicitly refused to state that Fentanyl caused Floyd's death. I watched the bodycam footage of Officer Thomas Lane (below) and I never saw Floyd swallow anything, which I believe members claimed to see several pages back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mflGauY3jwE
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-court-docs-say-george-floyd-had-fatal-level-of-fentanyl-in-his-system/ar-BB18pb0p
Second, I keep seeing members post that the neck kneel was necessary due to Floyd's noncompliance and physical size. That might've been true for the first minute or two, but not the remaining 7 minutes. Chauvin may have been smaller than Floyd, but he was in no way struggling to subdue Floyd for the majority of the time he had his knee on Floyd's neck. He looked pretty relaxed with his hands in his pockets. Hell, he's not even breathing heavily. In fact, judging by the shit-eating sneer on his face, he's enjoying it. While that alone isn't criminal, the casual nature of the neck kneel absolutely kills the argument that it was necessary due to Floyd's size or behavior at the time. And the weak argument collapses completely as Floyd becomes unresponsive. Yet Chauvin and the other officers refused to relent, roll him to his side to aid in breathing, or even check his pulse.
Just wondering, how does a 3 minute drill apply when you have 4 versus 1, and the 1 is in handcuffs already?
My take is that Chauvin murdered the guy. I've heard in the aftermath of this incident as well as Eric Garner that if you can talk you can breathe, but that's a half truth at best. The fact is that you can restrict someone's airway for several minutes and they're going to become unconscious even if they can talk at first. If I smother someone with a pillow they can yell for help at first, but it's still murder.
The testimony of the Lt should remove all doubt that Chauvin's behavior was unnecessary force. Y'all gonna argue that the Lt is placating the mob too?
Yes. Because every Lieutenant wants to be a Major.
He gave a lot of opinion. Cited policy as a generality.
You realize that none of the people who are pulling the “He’s dead, Jim” are in a legal position to declare people dead. You do know that right?
Surely you aren’t just claiming the officer “murdered” Floyd just to virtue signal or because it feels better.
My take is that Chauvin murdered the guy. I've heard in the aftermath of this incident as well as Eric Garner that if you can talk you can breathe, but that's a half truth at best. The fact is that you can restrict someone's airway for several minutes and they're going to become unconscious even if they can talk at first. If I smother someone with a pillow they can yell for help at first, but it's still murder.
The testimony of the Lt should remove all doubt that Chauvin's behavior was unnecessary force. Y'all gonna argue that the Lt is placating the mob too?
So, I assume you do not know the legal definition of the word "murder"?
just a scout
04-03-21, 07:22
I thought they did at one point. I think there should be a three strikes you're out rule on that one. ER doc I know said he revives a handful of the same people almost weekly.
My record is the same dude four times in one shift. If you don’t carry your own Narcan when you’re a junkie, that should be your problem.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
ChattanoogaPhil
04-03-21, 07:47
I'm a little confused by the Lt's testimony. Maybe some of it is missing? Does he testify that Chauvin's actions were outside of policy and also did he testify that Chauvin's actions were actually excessive force even though he wasn't striking Floyd but passively restraining him with no actual physical damage? It really sounded like he was testifying he just didn't like what he saw, but is that the same as stating for fact that Chauvin broke the law? Not sure I worded this correctly.
Lt. Zimmerman's testimony is over an hour which is too much to chronicle here but for purposes of this thread discussion I think it's fair to say that his testimony is contrary to those defending or otherwise attempting to rationalize knee on the neck use of force against Floyd. Particularly noteworthy was his testimony that a knee on the neck is "deadly force". "If your knee is on a person's neck it can kill them". Repeatedly stated that the use of force against Floyd was "totally unnecessary" "uncalled for" and "no reason".
Lt. Zimmerman's testimony begins at the 47min mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOY81-m70gA
First of all, the medical examiner never stated that Floyd died as a result of Fentanyl. It only mentioned the presence of the drug in his system, along with methamphetamine and cannabis. The death was ruled a homicide by the ME, who explicitly refused to state that Fentanyl caused Floyd's death.
Independent team:
"In an updated report filed two months later, Baker confirmed he had found traces of fentanyl—an opioid used as recreational drug—in Floyd's system, but stated that could not be identified as the cause of death.
According to the documents, Floyd had 11 ng/mL of fentanyl in his blood, a dose that could have been justified an overdose verdict had his death occurred in different circumstances.
Floyd was also found to have a "heavy heart" and "at least one artery was approximately 75 percent blocked."
Chauvin's defense is likely to focus on both elements of the report.
Baker told investigators that: "If he [Floyd] were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes, this could be acceptable to call an OD [overdose]. Deaths have been certified with levels of 3. [...] That is a fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances."
However, Baker also stated there was no proof the fentanyl had killed Floyd. "I am not saying this killed him," he added."
So, while he could not identify as the cause of death, it could not be ruled out. What seems obvious is, like many things, not simple and multi factorial. He died as a combination of his pre existing heart disease, drugs, and "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression"
I suspect Chauvin's actions ultimately contributed to the death. Murder? Nope. Involuntary Manslaughter, maybe, depending on case law, SOP, state law, and how good a job the defense and prosecution does.
He's charged with "second-degree unintentional murder and third-degree murder. He also faces a lesser charge of second-degree manslaughter."
I'm assuming in that state second-degree manslaughter is Involuntary Manslaughter, and that's the only charge I see sticking.
My record is the same dude four times in one shift. If you don’t carry your own Narcan when you’re a junkie, that should be your problem.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
And fat people need to carry their own defibrillators.
ChattanoogaPhil
04-03-21, 10:03
Never know what a jury will do but third-degree murder doesn't seem like too much of a stretch at this point in the trial. According to the below third-degree doesn't require intent to kill or even intent to harm, just need to show that Chauvin had no regard for Floyd's life. The video and testimony so far seems to point in that direction.
-----------
When Hennepin County District Court Judge Peter Cahill reinstated the third-degree murder charge for Derek Chauvin on March 11, the trial landscape shifted in favor of the prosecution. A third-degree charge doesn’t require “intent to effect the death of any person,” or even an “intent to inflict bodily harm,” just an “evincing of a depraved mind, without regard for human life.”
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/banking-law/chauvin-jury-instructions-could-determine-trial-outcome
I'm not saying Chauvin is an angel, my (non LEO, armchair only) opinion is he should have exercised more care. But the truth is he's going to go down, unfairly IMO, for this. He's being staked out as a sacrifice to the lions.
He's guilty of bad optics and being too cavalier at the least, and some level of negligence, potentially criminal, at the worst. We can debate his behavior, but the guy in that video did not look like a man intent on murder. Nor did he look like a man who thought he was doing harm.
His ass will be thrown into the volcano in hopes of calming the eruption. Not gonna work. Riots and burning are in the air. In protest, or in celebration Minneapolis is gonna be a shitshow. F it. Not my F'ing town, not my F'ing problem. I give zero s#!ts if they burn it all.
What I do give a s#!t about is that anyone could be the next sacrifice. At this point the politicos will sacrifice anyone and anything.
gunnerblue
04-03-21, 11:30
First of all, the medical examiner never stated that Floyd died as a result of Fentanyl. It only mentioned the presence of the drug in his system, along with methamphetamine and cannabis. The death was ruled a homicide by the ME, who explicitly refused to state that Fentanyl caused Floyd's death. I watched the bodycam footage of Officer Thomas Lane (below) and I never saw Floyd swallow anything, which I believe members claimed to see several pages back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mflGauY3jwE
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-court-docs-say-george-floyd-had-fatal-level-of-fentanyl-in-his-system/ar-BB18pb0p
Second, I keep seeing members post that the neck kneel was necessary due to Floyd's noncompliance and physical size. That might've been true for the first minute or two, but not the remaining 7 minutes. Chauvin may have been smaller than Floyd, but he was in no way struggling to subdue Floyd for the majority of the time he had his knee on Floyd's neck. He looked pretty relaxed with his hands in his pockets. Hell, he's not even breathing heavily. In fact, judging by the shit-eating sneer on his face, he's enjoying it. While that alone isn't criminal, the casual nature of the neck kneel absolutely kills the argument that it was necessary due to Floyd's size or behavior at the time. And the weak argument collapses completely as Floyd becomes unresponsive. Yet Chauvin and the other officers refused to relent, roll him to his side to aid in breathing, or even check his pulse.
Just wondering, how does a 3 minute drill apply when you have 4 versus 1, and the 1 is in handcuffs already?
My take is that Chauvin murdered the guy. I've heard in the aftermath of this incident as well as Eric Garner that if you can talk you can breathe, but that's a half truth at best. The fact is that you can restrict someone's airway for several minutes and they're going to become unconscious even if they can talk at first. If I smother someone with a pillow they can yell for help at first, but it's still murder.
The testimony of the Lt should remove all doubt that Chauvin's behavior was unnecessary force. Y'all gonna argue that the Lt is placating the mob too?
Police admin not standing up for the troopship?! I’m shocked..
Their job is protect the dept, he’s not placating the mob he’s trying to get promoted.
gunnerblue
04-03-21, 11:30
First of all, the medical examiner never stated that Floyd died as a result of Fentanyl. It only mentioned the presence of the drug in his system, along with methamphetamine and cannabis. The death was ruled a homicide by the ME, who explicitly refused to state that Fentanyl caused Floyd's death. I watched the bodycam footage of Officer Thomas Lane (below) and I never saw Floyd swallow anything, which I believe members claimed to see several pages back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mflGauY3jwE
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-court-docs-say-george-floyd-had-fatal-level-of-fentanyl-in-his-system/ar-BB18pb0p
Second, I keep seeing members post that the neck kneel was necessary due to Floyd's noncompliance and physical size. That might've been true for the first minute or two, but not the remaining 7 minutes. Chauvin may have been smaller than Floyd, but he was in no way struggling to subdue Floyd for the majority of the time he had his knee on Floyd's neck. He looked pretty relaxed with his hands in his pockets. Hell, he's not even breathing heavily. In fact, judging by the shit-eating sneer on his face, he's enjoying it. While that alone isn't criminal, the casual nature of the neck kneel absolutely kills the argument that it was necessary due to Floyd's size or behavior at the time. And the weak argument collapses completely as Floyd becomes unresponsive. Yet Chauvin and the other officers refused to relent, roll him to his side to aid in breathing, or even check his pulse.
Just wondering, how does a 3 minute drill apply when you have 4 versus 1, and the 1 is in handcuffs already?
My take is that Chauvin murdered the guy. I've heard in the aftermath of this incident as well as Eric Garner that if you can talk you can breathe, but that's a half truth at best. The fact is that you can restrict someone's airway for several minutes and they're going to become unconscious even if they can talk at first. If I smother someone with a pillow they can yell for help at first, but it's still murder.
The testimony of the Lt should remove all doubt that Chauvin's behavior was unnecessary force. Y'all gonna argue that the Lt is placating the mob too?
Police admin not standing up for the troops?!I’m shocked..
Their job is protect the dept, he’s not placating the mob he’s trying to get promoted.
Police admin not standing up for the troopship?! I’m shocked..
Their job is protect the dept, he’s not placating the mob he’s trying to get promoted.
That really goes against the representing the law and serving the public PR campaign.
WillieThom
04-03-21, 14:45
Yes. Because every Lieutenant wants to be a Major.
He gave a lot of opinion. Cited policy as a generality.
You realize that none of the people who are pulling the “He’s dead, Jim” are in a legal position to declare people dead. You do know that right?
Surely you aren’t just claiming the officer “murdered” Floyd just to virtue signal or because it feels better.
Yes. He murdered him. Didn’t you see his face? He was enjoying it.....................
Yes. He murdered him. Didn’t you see his face? He was enjoying it.....................
He didn’t look like he was enjoying anything.
It’s rather ignorant to forward that narrative
Averageman
04-03-21, 19:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4zM7MsC9ts
Pretty damning evidence.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-03-21, 20:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4zM7MsC9ts
Pretty damning evidence.
I’m not sure that this narrative helps the defense. If you’re going to say he did this before ended up in the hospital and he survived, does not open the question That if they had acted earlier he might still be alive?
WillieThom
04-03-21, 23:26
He didn’t look like he was enjoying anything.
It’s rather ignorant to forward that narrative
I agree with you whole-heartedly. The extremely long ellipsis at the end of that was me attempting to convey sarcasm toward that WAP guy or WAG or whatever it is, and what he was saying.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. The extremely long ellipsis at the end of that was me attempting to convey sarcasm toward that WAP guy or WAG or whatever it is, and what he was saying.
Okay. I didn’t catch the sarcasm. My bad.
Averageman
04-04-21, 09:16
I’m not sure that this narrative helps the defense. If you’re going to say he did this before ended up in the hospital and he survived, does not open the question That if they had acted earlier he might still be alive?
I'm of the opinion that the level of fentanyl in his blood stream was what killed him.
He had a huge dose, more than enough to kill him. He thought he was going to get over by swallowing the dope, but the drugs were too powerful, he was overdosing from the time it began leaking while he held it in his mouth.
By spitting out the remnants in the back seat of the cruiser, he left, dope and DNA behind with his motive and his life.
The defense is going to try to convince the jury that George Floyd would have died anyway, because he had lethal amounts of drugs in his system. Given the circumstances, I would not want to be a defendant in that case.
The state has a good case if applying force to the neck of an arrested subject is considered use of deadly force in Minnesota and the circumstances did not warrant the use of deadly force. If it is an authorized technique under the circumstances, the defense has a good case.
The prosecution may be able to prove Depraved Indifference/Murder in the Third Degree under Minnesota Sec 609.195(a) for failure to respond to the medical needs of a subject in custody.
It's not how we feel about the case, it comes down to the criminal code and case law.
PracticalRifleman
04-04-21, 09:25
Far as I can see, the only thing murdered is truth and justice.
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The defense is going to try to convince the jury that George Floyd would have died anyway, because he had lethal amounts of drugs in his system. Given the circumstances, I would not want to be a defendant in that case.
The state has a good case if applying force to the neck of an arrested subject is considered use of deadly force in Minnesota and the circumstances did not warrant the use of deadly force. If it is an authorized technique under the circumstances, the defense has a good case.
It's not how we feel about the case, it comes down to the criminal code and case law.
Assuming the details on the drugs was correct:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/medical-examiners-under-fire/
If a peon took action that may cause the death of a person that was on borrowed time and it gets down to "which killed first" is the peon going to get to just walk away from the incident?
Assuming the details on the drugs was correct:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/medical-examiners-under-fire/
If a peon took action that may cause the death of a person that was on borrowed time and it gets down to "which killed first" is the peon going to get to just walk away from the incident?
That would be up to the jury to decide.
Okay. I didn’t catch the sarcasm. My bad.
Sarcasm font so needs to be a thing.
PracticalRifleman
04-04-21, 09:51
Chauvin is to be sacrificed to the woke mob. It’s the plan. That’s the new justice system in the Woke States of America.
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He is getting his day in court and I would be opposed to a wrongful conviction.
And that seems to be in opposition to the rather flippant attitude the legal system(at all levels) frequently holds on false arrests and wrongful convictions.
PracticalRifleman
04-04-21, 13:05
He is getting his day in court and I would be opposed to a wrongful conviction.
And that seems to be in opposition to the rather flippant attitude the legal system(at all levels) frequently holds on false arrests and wrongful convictions.
Getting a day in court doesn’t mean a fair trial.
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Getting a day in court doesn’t mean a fair trial.
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Is this the same court system Chauvin was arresting the unwashed masses so they could stand before it?
Decent chance he would even tack on resisting arrest or fleeing and evading if they were of the opinion they weren't going to get a fair trial and decided that opting out of the program was in their best interest also.6th
That defense is a lot like an incumbent office holder running on a reform platform to clean up all the corruption they had took part in.
Is this the same court system Chauvin was arresting the unwashed masses so they could stand before it?
Decent chance he would even tack on resisting arrest or fleeing and evading if they were of the opinion they weren't going to get a fair trial and decided that opting out of the program was in their best interest also.6th
That defense is a lot like an incumbent office holder running on a reform platform to clean up all the corruption they had took part in.
Well generally the entirely of the press corps, one entire political party, and the sitting POS, oops I mean POTUS, are not cheerleaders for the summary execution of a criminal defendant.
Well generally the entirely of the press corps, one entire political party, and the sitting POS, oops I mean POTUS, are not cheerleaders for the summary execution of a criminal defendant.
Same system before and after their meeting on the street.
If Chauvin was ok with it applying to others then it is good enough for him.
That is not an unusual cheering section for firearms violations not involving theft or injuring another either..
PracticalRifleman
04-04-21, 19:46
Is this the same court system Chauvin was arresting the unwashed masses so they could stand before it?
Decent chance he would even tack on resisting arrest or fleeing and evading if they were of the opinion they weren't going to get a fair trial and decided that opting out of the program was in their best interest also.6th
That defense is a lot like an incumbent office holder running on a reform platform to clean up all the corruption they had took part in.
Oh is that what you think? Bless your naive little heart...
I suppose all this he arrested had $27 million dollar settlements from the city, a city that decries each persons guilt, and national attention with a 24/7 news cycle declaring their guilt.
If you think he’s getting a fair shake, I want some of why you’re smoking. Maybe it’ll make this shithole country tolerable.
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Oh is that what you think? Bless your naive little heart...
I suppose all this he arrested had $27 million dollar settlements from the city, a city that decries each persons guilt, and national attention with a 24/7 news cycle declaring their guilt.
If you think he’s getting a fair shake, I want some of why you’re smoking. Maybe it’ll make this shithole country tolerable.
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Not naive at all.
The only big news I recall hearing out of Minnesota on May 25, 2020 was this incident. No mention of every single person in their criminal justice system retired, quit, or was fired that day and replaced with someone new.
If the system was corrupt at 11:59 PM on May 25, 2020 then it was just as corrupt at 12:00 AM.
That his status within that system, that he apparently he had no problem feeding with arrests, changed by the stroke of midnight isn't something I am going to wring my hands over.
PracticalRifleman
04-04-21, 20:27
Not naive at all.
The only big news I recall hearing out of Minnesota on May 25, 2020 was this incident. No mention of every single person in their criminal justice system retired, quit, or was fired that day and replaced with someone new.
If the system was corrupt at 11:59 PM on May 25, 2020 then it was just as corrupt at 12:00 AM.
That his status within that system, that he apparently he had no problem feeding with arrests, changed by the stroke of midnight isn't something I am going to wring my hands over.
Your head is in the sand. That’s fine, it has been quite a while.
To those in the real world, we can see that political, social, and media pressure has created a situation where the facts don’t matter. The poor bastard couldn’t even get a change of venue.
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Your head is in the sand. That’s fine, it has been quite a while.
To those in the real world, we can see that political, social, and media pressure has created a situation where the facts don’t matter. The poor bastard couldn’t even get a change of venue.
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What's your proof this guy was pure as the wind driven snow when he woke up on 25 May 2020, but made the life and career decision to be thoroughly corrupt before the day was out?
Or if he was already corrupt, why didn't Chauvin have any problems with that corruption?
PracticalRifleman
04-04-21, 20:37
What's your proof this guy was pure as the wind driven snow when he woke up on 25 May 2020, but made the life and career decision to be thoroughly corrupt before the day was out?
Or if he was already corrupt, why didn't Chauvin have any problems with that corruption?
[emoji23] you’re a funny guy. You can’t see the forest for the trees.
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[emoji23] you’re a funny guy. You can’t see the forest for the trees.
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Nothing changed about the system after. If he liked it for others before, why wouldn't he like it now?
The no change of venue may help him, similar to how they placed a guy under indictment as jury foreman in the Michael Slager trial. Had it not ended in a mistrial, the indicted juror would likely have been a plus during the appeal.
PracticalRifleman
04-04-21, 20:48
Nothing changed about the system after. If he liked it for others before, why wouldn't he like it now?
The no change of venue may help him, similar to how they placed a guy under indictment as jury foreman in the Michael Slager trial. Had it not ended in a mistrial, the indicted juror would likely have been a plus during the appeal.
Again, if you can’t see how outside influence is affecting this....
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Again, if you can’t see how outside influence is affecting this....
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Again, if the criminal justice system is corrupt now then it was before too.
PracticalRifleman
04-04-21, 20:55
Again, if the criminal justice system is corrupt now then it was before too.
Irrelevant statement is irrelevant.
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Irrelevant statement is irrelevant.
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I actually think a corrupt criminal justice system is a major problem. That being said, I don't have any affinity for certain classes of people that cause me to think that is a non-issue when one of their members is in the role of a hammer, but suddenly find the very same system abhorrent when one of the hammers becomes a nail.
PracticalRifleman
04-04-21, 21:43
I actually think a corrupt criminal justice system is a major problem. That being said, I don't have any affinity for certain classes of people that cause me to think that is a non-issue when one of their members is in the role of a hammer, but suddenly find the very same system abhorrent when one of the hammers becomes a nail.
Again, is he getting a fair trial?
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Again, is he getting a fair trial?
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Would he have told you a person he arrested a year ago was getting a fair trial?
Would he have told you a person he arrested a year ago was getting a fair trial?One of these things is not like the other... Just sayin.
One of these things is not like the other... Just sayin.
A year ago it would have been someone else standing before the same legal system.
Combat_Diver
04-04-21, 22:59
NY Times is threatening the jurors in the Derek Chauvin trial
https://twitter.com/jackposobiec/status/1377358782305509380?s=28
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1377244332395220992
Miss trail?
CD
A year ago it would have been someone else standing before the same legal system.The legal system isn't the real issue here; the political climate and drama surrounding this case are. Does that make it more difficult for him to get a fair and impartial trial? Certainly plausible.
https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/crop:x-20,resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/17fed5f5df7434a1eee11a51cfa8230585045fe1a60994a1850daad736d228f2_1.jpg
Whenever reporters do the whole cute “Well people need to know” bit about people’s personal lives then it needs to be noted that maybe people might also be interested in who is doing the reporting and where they live ;)
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-05-21, 01:30
I don't know what killed Mr. Floyd. But I do know that Mr. Chauvin used excessive force and was deliberately indifferent and needs to be held accountable for those two actions. Had Chauvin not used excessive force, he would not be on trial.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-05-21, 01:45
NY Times is threatening the jurors in the Derek Chauvin trial
https://twitter.com/jackposobiec/status/1377358782305509380?s=28
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1377244332395220992
Miss trail?
CD
Won’t the identities of the jurors come out after the trial anyways? Definitely not saying it’s a good idea and that you could actually put pressure on before the case is resolved, but the true pressure is that these guys will be ostracized and hounded for the rest of their lives.
I don't know what killed Mr. Floyd. But I do know that Mr. Chauvin used excessive force and was deliberately indifferent and needs to be held accountable for those two actions. Had Chauvin not used excessive force, he would not be on trial.
Excessive, I don’t know, I think the true issue is that he didn’t adapt to the changing situation and did nothing to render aid. Frankly I think he is overcharged. Chauvin is the last link in a long line of bad things happening and unfortunately he is the most demonstrable cause of Floyd’s death.
Unfortunately one cops poor decision making blew up into a indictment of the American culture. Everyone can look at this court case and see a different thing.
https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/crop:x-20,resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/17fed5f5df7434a1eee11a51cfa8230585045fe1a60994a1850daad736d228f2_1.jpg
Whenever reporters do the whole cute “Well people need to know” bit about people’s personal lives then it needs to be noted that maybe people might also be interested in who is doing the reporting and where they live ;)
Hey FF, what kind of pistol is that you’re holding? :D
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-05-21, 06:12
Won’t the identities of the jurors come out after the trial anyways? Definitely not saying it’s a good idea and that you could actually put pressure on before the case is resolved, but the true pressure is that these guys will be ostracized and hounded for the rest of their lives.
Excessive, I don’t know, I think the true issue is that he didn’t adapt to the changing situation and did nothing to render aid. Frankly I think he is overcharged. Chauvin is the last link in a long line of bad things happening and unfortunately he is the most demonstrable cause of Floyd’s death.
Unfortunately one cops poor decision making blew up into a indictment of the American culture. Everyone can look at this court case and see a different thing.
I've been doing this job for a decade. I've arrested thousands of people, and work in the 10th most violent city in Colorado. I know excessive force when I see, and Chauvin was blatant with it. I've NEVER, NEVER, needed to keep my knee on another man's neck for 9 minutes for any reason.
PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 08:05
Would he have told you a person he arrested a year ago was getting a fair trial?
You won’t answer the question. If you can’t answer the question posed, do t ask any.
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BoringGuy45
04-05-21, 08:11
I've been doing this job for a decade. I've arrested thousands of people, and work in the 10th most violent city in Colorado. I know excessive force when I see, and Chauvin was blatant with it. I've NEVER, NEVER, needed to keep my knee on another man's neck for 9 minutes for any reason.
I agree. In the UOF's I was involved with in both corrections and law enforcement, the longest I ever had my knee on a guy's head or neck for more than two minutes, and each time, the guys were resisting hard. As soon as they calmed down, I got off and got them into a recovery position. Even if Floyd was alive today, I think Chauvin should have lost his job.
In the public eye, it's more of a forgone conclusion that what Chauvin did directly caused Floyd's death, and if he hadn't knelt on his neck, Floyd would be alive today. Furthermore, it's a foregone conclusion that Chauvin did it because he hates black people and this was a more subtle way than hanging Floyd from a tree, and the police uniform was more subtle than a KKK sheet or SS uniform. These aren't up for debate; they are irrefutable facts on par with the laws of nature. So, that's what we're up against. But what we're working with is questionable hard evidence that this was an intentional killing, or even if it wasn't, that it was done with depraved intentions. That Chauvin's actions even directly caused his death is questionable.
As FromMyColdDeadHand said, the DA overcharged, like they always, always do in these situations. And like always happens, they don't have proof beyond a reasonable doubt and so the defendant walks, and leftists of the nation declare that the guilt was clear as day and he got off because of racism. But that's part of the point; if the DA loses the case, they can just say "Hey, you can't blame me. I was doing the right thing. I'm on your side. It's your fellow citizens who are the problem. Go after them!" They could potentially get Chauvin for manslaughter, aggravated assault, and a host of misuse of official powers charges. But they went for murder, and the mob won't accept anything except a murder conviction.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-05-21, 08:19
I've been doing this job for a decade. I've arrested thousands of people, and work in the 10th most violent city in Colorado. I know excessive force when I see, and Chauvin was blatant with it. I've NEVER, NEVER, needed to keep my knee on another man's neck for 9 minutes for any reason.
Everyone must have very different family reunions...
I’ve had issue with the word “excessive“. Mainly because that indicates a magnitude of force. It’s not so much what he did, it’s for as long as he did. So, excessive in time dependent way yes.
You know the 10th most violent city in Colorado probably doesn’t intimidate many people, considering that most people can’t name 10 cities in Colorado without mentioning Vail or Breckenridge. ;). I do know that the Denver metro area has become a complete shit show over the past year with overall crime, and especially property crimes. Stay safe out there. Why did I think you were in corrections department?
I wonder how it’s going to come out in the court case about how they knew each other, or at least knew of each other.
PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 08:44
I've been doing this job for a decade. I've arrested thousands of people, and work in the 10th most violent city in Colorado. I know excessive force when I see, and Chauvin was blatant with it. I've NEVER, NEVER, needed to keep my knee on another man's neck for 9 minutes for any reason.
Tenth most? Not sure I can name ten.
The trial isn’t for “excessive use of force”. It’s for murder. Did Chauvin MURDER Floyd or did the excessive amount of opiates in his system kill him? We know his opiate level was higher than many do OD on.
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Tenth most? Not sure I can name ten.
The trial isn’t for “excessive use of force”. It’s for murder. Did Chauvin MURDER Floyd or did the excessive amount of opiates in his system kill him? We know his opiate level was higher than many do OD on.
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Do you think the prosecution has a case for Depraved Indifference/Murder in the Third Degree (Minnesota Sec 609.195(a)) for failure to respond to the medical needs of a subject in custody?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-05-21, 08:52
Tenth most? Not sure I can name ten.
The trial isn’t for “excessive use of force”. It’s for murder. Did Chauvin MURDER Floyd or did the excessive amount of opiates in his system kill him? We know his opiate level was higher than many do OD on.
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Congratulations, geography isn't your Forte, unfortunately neither is reading comprehension. I specifically said I don't know what killed Floyd, but I do know that Chauvin committed blatant excessive force. By all means, hitch your wagon to him though.
PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 09:05
Congratulations, geography isn't your Forte, unfortunately neither is reading comprehension. I specifically said I don't know what killed Floyd, but I do know that Chauvin committed blatant excessive force. By all means, hitch your wagon to him though.
Weird, I didn’t see in the post I quoted where you stated you didn’t know. Maybe you thought you put that in? Or you edited later?
The point remains...the tenth most violent city in Colorado aside, I’ve seen more force used in medical situations. Further, there was no soft-tissue injury evident on the autopsy. While I’m not hitching my wagon; as you say, but I’d think “excessive force” would result in at least some bruising.
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PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 09:08
Do you think the prosecution has a case for Depraved Indifference/Murder in the Third Degree (Minnesota Sec 609.195(a)) for failure to respond to the medical needs of a subject in custody?
Did he fail to respond or respond too late? The prosecutor didn’t want murder 3, initially.
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Weird, I didn’t see in the post I quoted where you stated you didn’t know. Maybe you thought you put that in? Or you edited later?
The point remains...the tenth most violent city in Colorado aside, I’ve seen more force used in medical situations. Further, there was no soft-tissue injury evident on the autopsy. While I’m not hitching my wagon; as you say, but I’d think “excessive force” would result in at least some bruising.
I have seen non-lethal excessive force not leave external trauma. But I imagine that's the exception rather than the rule.
Chief says he did not follow PD UOF policy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw4Wz2QW8K8
PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 15:38
Chief says he did not follow PD UOF policy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw4Wz2QW8K8
Sounds like some very creative answers to the questions presented. I found it especially telling when the chief states based on facial expression that it could not have been “light to moderate pressure”.
I’d like to know how the chief can scientifically determine how much pressure was applied to an enraged lunatic resisting arrest, high on opiates, by facial expression?
Evidently, the chief and prosecutor worked together to come up with questions and answers to say he wasn’t following policy even though it is consistent with policy.
Like I said, no fair trial. Chief is guilty of perjury.
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You won’t answer the question. If you can’t answer the question posed, do t ask any.
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I have answered it.
He deserves his day in court, he is getting that day in court, and his trial is at least as fair as a trial for anyone he arrested.
I have answered it.
He deserves his day in court, he is getting that day in court, and his trial is at least as fair as a trial for anyone he arrested.
How do you conclude that?
How do you conclude that?
Judge and prosecutor aren't ringers brought in after May so any people arrested by Chauvin could have been standing before them.
https://6abc.com/jerry-blackwell-attorney-derek-chauvin-trial-livestream-how-old-is-george-floyd-what-did-get-pulled-over-for/10456586/
Now if the criminal justice system in Minnesota is a cess pit of corruption that means Chauvin was arresting people fully knowing his actions were leading to a miscarriage of justice for others.
PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 16:12
How do you conclude that?
He has a “f the police” chip on his shoulder and cannot recognize things like media coverage, elected officials, etc can taint public opinion.
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He has a “f the police” chip on his shoulder and cannot recognize things like media coverage, elected officials, etc can taint public opinion.
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So if an incident is in the news a lot should the accused just be set free?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-05-21, 16:34
Weird, I didn’t see in the post I quoted where you stated you didn’t know. Maybe you thought you put that in? Or you edited later?
The point remains...the tenth most violent city in Colorado aside, I’ve seen more force used in medical situations. Further, there was no soft-tissue injury evident on the autopsy. While I’m not hitching my wagon; as you say, but I’d think “excessive force” would result in at least some bruising.
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Where in the world is any injury required to determine force, or excessive force? There is no injury if an officer wristlocks someone for being mouthy, there is no injury if an officer points his gun at someone who isn't a threat, there is no injury if an officer uses a chemical irritant on someone who didn't deserve it.
Find me one cop who says they would keep their knee on someone's neck for 9 minutes, and I'll show you the bad cop we all talk about.
You don’t support a fair trial. You’ve expressed that. **** off.
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If it's the same judge and so on that was good enough for everyone else, then why is it bad now?
Is a bench trial possible?
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/why-do-police-defendants-want-to-be-tried-by-judges-and-not-by-juries/
PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 16:58
Where in the world is any injury required to determine force, or excessive force? There is no injury if an officer wristlocks someone for being mouthy, there is no injury if an officer points his gun at someone who isn't a threat, there is no injury if an officer uses a chemical irritant on someone who didn't deserve it.
Find me one cop who says they would keep their knee on someone's neck for 9 minutes, and I'll show you the bad cop we all talk about.
Now you’re in the realm of “deserved it” I see.
Holding a person who resisted arrest and was not cooperative, who had just destroyed evidence is not comparable to pointing a firearm at a “non-threat”.
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LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-05-21, 17:04
Now you’re in the realm of “deserved it” I see.
Holding a person who resisted arrest and was not cooperative, who had just destroyed evidence is not comparable to pointing a firearm at a “non-threat”.
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Lmao. I'm in the realm of law. Which you seem to have no experience with or knowledge of.
Chief wasn’t there. Chief is offering opinion.
The Prosecution isn’t proving guilt so much as attacking the officer’s character.
Even if Chauvin violated policy, that’s fine. Policy isn’t the law. It’s merely department policy. You can violate policy all day and still not break the law.
A lot of virtue signaling going on here.
Does it look good to prone someone out that long? No.
But it didn’t kill him.
The officer did not “deny him care”. EMS was notified well before the takedown. They were delayed due to dispatcher not giving the proper run code. The officers are not street doctors. The officers are under absolutely zero obligation to allow some random person on the street perform First Aid or offer legal/policy advice.
I mean, this is trial by Facebook. And mob rule. I’ve yet to see any medical report link Chauvin to the cause of death. If you swallow that much fentanyl then you will die.
Chief wasn’t there. Chief is offering opinion.
The Prosecution isn’t proving guilt so much as attacking the officer’s character.
Even if Chauvin violated policy, that’s fine. Policy isn’t the law. It’s merely department policy. You can violate policy all day and still not break the law.
A lot of virtue signaling going on here.
Does it look good to prone someone out that long? No.
But it didn’t kill him.
The officer did not “deny him care”. EMS was notified well before the takedown. They were delayed due to dispatcher not giving the proper run code. The officers are not street doctors. The officers are under absolutely zero obligation to allow some random person on the street perform First Aid or offer legal/policy advice.
I mean, this is trial by Facebook. And mob rule. I’ve yet to see any medical report link Chauvin to the cause of death. If you swallow that much fentanyl then you will die.
I'd go so far as to say it may have contributed to his death, in the context of his chemical state and poor physical condition, but that's it. No, it didn't look good on vid, but it was not murder in any respect. I can see involuntary manslaughter or equivalent as the state defines it. Not sure what the Jury is allowed to consider for charges.
I'd go so far as to say it may have contributed to his death, in the context of his chemical state and poor physical condition, but that's it. No, it didn't look good on vid, but it was not murder in any respect. I can see involuntary manslaughter or equivalent as the state defines it. Not sure what the Jury is allowed to consider for charges.
Honestly him just getting out of bed contributed to his death. Him swallowing a fatal hit certainly did.
We’d still be here even if he sat down in the back seat like he was supposed to. He’d have nodded off before EMS got there, voided his bowels and bladder and died.
PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 18:20
Honestly him just getting out of bed contributed to his death. Him swallowing a fatal hit certainly did.
We’d still be here even if he sat down in the back seat like he was supposed to. He’d have nodded off before EMS got there, voided his bowels and bladder and died.
This. Dude had enough opiates in his system to kill a horse twice over.
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PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 18:22
Lmao. I'm in the realm of law. Which you seem to have no experience with or knowledge of.
I question if you do....
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Averageman
04-05-21, 18:25
This. Dude had enough opiates in his system to kill a horse twice over.
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Cops gotta Cop and Criminals gotta commit crimes.
Why not just accept that?
You do risky stuff in the name of getting high, sometimes your fake twenty is not going to work and sometimes when you swallow the dope you die.
PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 18:25
Cops gotta Cop and Criminals gotta commit crimes.
Why not just accept that?
You do risky stuff in the name of getting high, sometimes your fake twenty is not going to work and sometimes when you swallow the dope you die.
If the dope was woke we could avoid all this. Drugs are raysis.
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Honestly him just getting out of bed contributed to his death. Him swallowing a fatal hit certainly did.
We’d still be here even if he sat down in the back seat like he was supposed to. He’d have nodded off before EMS got there, voided his bowels and bladder and died.
I said same a few pages back. He may have made, may not have, had he gotten in the back seat. But, he had other ideas.
PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 18:30
And to one up that, he could have been proned out for an hour without asphyxiation and survived just fine if hadn’t swallowed the dope.
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ChattanoogaPhil
04-05-21, 18:50
Exercising "deadly force" on someone who is cuffed and in the prone position, not actively resisting nor passively resisting for a period of three minutes or more while the person is non-responsive, could that be considered felony assault?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-05-21, 18:51
I question if you do....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Bro, you are a practical joke. Cite for me some case law relevant to your view points. I'll wait...
PracticalRifleman
04-05-21, 18:52
Exercising "deadly force" on someone who is cuffed and in the prone position, not actively resisting nor passively resisting for a period of three minutes or more while the person is non-responsive, could that be considered felony assault?
Not sure you can call a restraint deadly force.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
SeriousStudent
04-05-21, 19:02
And the back and forth barbs get to stop. Now.
By the way, if you want to hit "Report Post" after tossing the first insult, that's a bad plan. Just saying.
Everybody go to a neutral corner for 24 hours. Then we'll think about reopening the thread.
SeriousStudent
04-05-21, 19:27
I had a chance to read the witty banter going back and forth.
So now someone is on vaccay for quite a bit, probably long after the trial is over.
Please do continue your polite and rational discourse. Discuss it as you would any matter of the day, over a delicious Old-Fashioned and a tasty Liga Privada T52 cigar. Because that is what I was doing.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-05-21, 19:32
I could've certainly handled myself a little more maturely. My apologies.
ChattanoogaPhil,
Continuing to use force on a non-resistant and especially non responsive subject could most certainly be Assault to some degree.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-05-21, 19:35
But again, I don't know what killed Floyd. My point is Chauvin made his own life very difficult with his poor choices. Is he guilty of murder? I doubt it, but knees shouldn't stay on necks for 9 minutes, I don't care what the situation is.
If you suck at controlling bad guys, the charity Adopt a Cop will pay for you to train BJJ until you are a blue belt. I've been training under them for 6 months now, and my USOF are far more effective and even safer for all parties involved. I've been trained in Krav, PPCT, and FBI DTAC, but nothing compares to what I've learned about fighting and controlling badguys through BJJ. DM me if you want more info.
Ya know...I'm pretty set that there isn't going to be any convictions. Just seems this rock has gone so full blown loco that now is a perfect time to have another round of social injustice riots & the smell of the narrative won't go away?? How much longer do they expect the trial to go on??
I fear the worst.
I said same a few pages back. He may have made, may not have, had he gotten in the back seat. But, he had other ideas.
Precisely, despite everybody’s opinions on the matter; George Floyd killed George Floyd.
This isn’t to say that I think Chauvin was an all-star hero that day. Oh heavens no. I can see why he felt it was easier to keep him proned out with the natives getting restless, but ideally if someone just has to kill themselves with an OD then it would certainly look better if they were sitting upright in a police vehicle. Now I totally understand how hard it can be to stuff someone who just refuses to get in the vehicle but at day’s end it simply isn’t up for debate. That’s what court is for.
But murder and even manslaughter is a tough sell. So far everybody has offered a lot of Woulda Coulda Shoulda and opinion but nobody has actually showed evidence that Chauvin killed him.
I mean....let’s keep it real. It comes down to “What did Chauvin know and when did he know it”. He knew he swallowed but did he know how much and what kind? Did he know it was fatal? As for being prone. No that wasn’t good for someone whose vascular system is depressing and shutting down from opioids but an otherwise healthy person can be prone for a long time. How many soldiers low crawl everyday? How many people shoot prone at long distance? Or hunt? And they stay prone for a long time. Or sleep on their stomach? And that’s for hours. Or lay on the beach?
Floyd wasn’t obese. I probably wouldn’t let a really fat person stay like that. But that’s not relevant.
Most of Chauvin’s weight was on his outside leg.
But regardless the trial and people’s opinions thereof reinforces my misanthropic tendencies.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-05-21, 21:34
As the OP, I was really hoping for a legalistic analysis of the whole situation. I understand and appreciate the desire to talk about the encounter and it’s entirety, but I think sticking to the witnesses testimony, the evidence presented, the laws that are in play here is a good box to stay in. We have a lot of experts here, that I think can contribute to an understanding of the reality of the court case, the political, societal, and conspiratorial parts of this can all be dealt with elsewhere.
Thx
SeriousStudent
04-05-21, 21:44
As the OP, I was really hoping for a legalistic analysis of the whole situation. I understand and appreciate the desire to talk about the encounter and it’s entirety, but I think sticking to the witnesses testimony, the evidence presented, the laws that are in play here is a good box to stay in. We have a lot of experts here, that I think can contribute to an understanding of the reality of the court case, the political, societal, and conspiratorial parts of this can all be dealt with elsewhere.
Thx
That's a splendid idea.
For those who have been following intently...where are you today if one of the 12 only focusing on the presented 411??
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-05-21, 23:42
For those who have been following intently...where are you today if one of the 12 only focusing on the presented 411??
The jury knows the charges, but have they had the specifics and differences between them explained to them? I thought in other court cases the jury members couldn’t take notes. If you don’t know the specifics of the charges and can’t keep notes- it seems to me if I were on the jury I’d want a ‘rubric’ like in school for all the charges and then take notes based on that- but that’s not how it works? I’m thinking the jury keeps all the info in their heads, gets the deliberation instructions on the charges and then from memory (or re-read court testimony) puts the charges and facts together to get to a verdict?
Minneapolis Police Chief Says He Doesn’t Believe Derek Chauvin’s Knee Was On George Floyd’s Neck…
https://www.weaselzippers.us/467206-minneapolis-police-chief-says-he-doesnt-believe-derek-chauvins-knee-was-on-george-floyds-neck/
ChattanoogaPhil
04-06-21, 05:33
Based on the video evidence and testimony so far, it would appear that both murder charges are still on the table.
The doctor who declared Floyd dead testified that the most likely cause of death was asphyxia. The training officer testified about positional asphyxia, being cuffed in the prone position including being pinned down. Further testified that a person cuffed in the prone position should be moved onto their side for their safety. The Sgt also testified to the same.
The Lt. testified that a knee on the neck is "deadly force".
Multiple witnesses testified that the force being used should have stopped once Floyd was no longer resisting and non-responsive. The Lt. testified that the force used was "totally unnecessary" and "uncalled for".
Multiple witnesses testified that no aid was given.
So... according to testimony Floyd most likely died from asphyxia while at the time was subjected to positional asphyxia, pinned down, and left in that position for an extended period while not resisting and non-responsive which was totally unnecessary.
Neither second or third-degree murder require intent to kill. Second-degree requires that a felony was committed (Deadly force on someone who isn't resisting/non-responsive, felony assault? ). Third-degree requires no regard for human life.
Of course the defense hasn't had the opportunity to call their witnesses. That should be interesting.
BoringGuy45
04-06-21, 08:49
Based on the video evidence and testimony so far, it would appear that both murder charges are still on the table.
The doctor who declared Floyd dead testified that the most likely cause of death was asphyxia. The training officer testified about positional asphyxia, being cuffed in the prone position including being pinned down. Further testified that a person cuffed in the prone position should be moved onto their side for their safety. The Sgt also testified to the same.
The Lt. testified that a knee on the neck is "deadly force".
Multiple witnesses testified that the force being used should have stopped once Floyd was no longer resisting and non-responsive. The Lt. testified that the force used was "totally unnecessary" and "uncalled for".
Multiple witnesses testified that no aid was given.
So... according to testimony Floyd most likely died from asphyxia while at the time was subjected to positional asphyxia, pinned down, and left in that position for an extended period while not resisting and non-responsive which was totally unnecessary.
Neither second or third-degree murder require intent to kill. Second-degree requires that a felony was committed (Deadly force on someone who isn't resisting/non-responsive, felony assault? ). Third-degree requires no regard for human life.
Of course the defense hasn't had the opportunity to call their witnesses. That should be interesting.
First, I'm really surprised to hear that a knee on the neck, as Chauvin did it, is considered "deadly force". Honestly, I question how honest that Lt. is being (and under oath). Kneeling on the neck in order to cut off blood and airflow? Absolutely. But I don't think that's what Chauvin was doing. Both my old PD and my old jail permitted us to kneel the head and neck area to get an arrestee/inmate under control, so long as the action was reasonable and necessary. I'd be very surprised to hear that ALL knee to neck restrains are considered deadly regardless of context.
As to whether or not the intent to kill is required for murder, that varies from state to state. A lot of states require a malicious intent to kill, but without premeditation or wanton cruelty, in order for it to be 2nd degree murder. Whereas 3rd degree would be that the defendant didn't intend to kill, but was behaving maliciously towards the victim. I don't know how MN is with that. But it'll come down to establishing Chauvin's mindset. If he was being grossly negligent but not intending to be vicious towards Floyd, I think manslaughter would fit better. If, however, he was acting out of anger and maliciousness, they could get the murder conviction.
Of course, that will all be for naught if it's determined that Chauvin's actions did not cause Floyd's death.
ChattanoogaPhil
04-06-21, 09:01
As to whether or not the intent to kill is required for murder, that varies from state to state. A lot of states require a malicious intent to kill, but without premeditation or wanton cruelty, in order for it to be 2nd degree murder. Whereas 3rd degree would be that the defendant didn't intend to kill, but was behaving maliciously towards the victim. I don't know how MN is with that. But it'll come down to establishing Chauvin's mindset. If he was being grossly negligent but not intending to be vicious towards Floyd, I think manslaughter would fit better. If, however, he was acting out of anger and maliciousness, they could get the murder conviction.
Of course, that will all be for naught if it's determined that Chauvin's actions did not cause Floyd's death.
The state is Minnesota. Chauvin is charged with unintentional second-degree murder and third-degree murder. Neither require intent to kill.
----------
2020 Minnesota Statutes
609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subd. 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or
More here: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19
-------------
2020 Minnesota Statutes
609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.
More here: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195
The state is Minnesota. Chauvin is charged with unintentional second-degree murder and third-degree murder. Neither require intent to kill.
----------
609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subd. 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or
More here: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19
-------------
2020 Minnesota Statutes
609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.
More here: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195
How do those differ from say Involuntary manslaughter or criminally negligent manslaughter or is that MN equivalent? Murder usually considered more culpable than manslaughter but I'm no legal expert.
ChattanoogaPhil
04-06-21, 09:27
How do those differ from say Involuntary manslaughter or criminally negligent manslaughter or is that MN equivalent? Murder usually considered more culpable than manslaughter but I'm no legal expert.
Neither am I but this appears to be a pretty good article to answer questions on the differences between the charges Chauvin is facing.
https://www.startribune.com/derek-chauvin-charges-trial-george-floyd-murder-manslaughter-police-minneapolis-minnesota/600030691/
teufelhund1918
04-06-21, 09:32
https://www.foxnews.com/us/derek-chauvin-trial-was-officers-knee-on-george-floyds-neck-authorized
The powerpoint pulled from the Minneapolis Police Dept. training materials that is half way down in this article from Fox News says it all. Floyd was resisting arrest. Chauvin and the other officers were doing what they were trained to do... period.
Neither am I but this appears to be a pretty good article to answer questions on the differences between the charges Chauvin is facing.
https://www.startribune.com/derek-chauvin-charges-trial-george-floyd-murder-manslaughter-police-minneapolis-minnesota/600030691/
On the first charge:
"prosecutors will have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin caused Floyd's death while assaulting him."
Not gonna happen.
On the next charge:
"Third-degree murder requires prosecutors to prove that someone caused the death of another 'by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life.'"
Tough sell there as you have to get into Chauvin's head and to me, ignore the drugs and the ill health as contributing factor. Personally, I don't see it happening.
Finally: second-degree manslaughter?
"In order to convict Chauvin of second-degree manslaughter, prosecutors will need to show beyond a reasonable doubt that he was "culpably negligent" and took an "unreasonable risk" with Floyd's life when he restrained him and that his actions put Floyd at risk of death or great harm. Prosecutors do not have to prove that Chauvin's actions intended to cause Floyd's death, only that his actions put Floyd at risk of death or great bodily harm."
That is the only one I see applying and sticking. He did take an "unreasonable risk" as it will appear to the jury, he was not following UOF policy (yet evidence suggests otherwise!), his fellow LEOs have decided to distance themselves from him, and the defense will have a difficult time countering that one in my non expert opinion.
While I was not there, the deceased in that position by his own making, likely died as a combination of drugs, poor health, and being restrained in that manner for that lengthy period of time, he should have turned him over and didn't, and it looked bad on vid, that is, there's a perception at least Chauvin was not concerned about the status of the deceased.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/derek-chauvin-trial-was-officers-knee-on-george-floyds-neck-authorized
The powerpoint pulled from the Minneapolis Police Dept. training materials that is half way down in this article from Fox News says it all. Floyd was resisting arrest. Chauvin and the other officers were doing what they were trained to do... period.
The defense should bring the LT and the Chief back who claimed he was not following their UOF policy and make them look like lying turds with the simple powerpoint. A picture being worth a thousand words and all that.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-06-21, 10:11
https://www.foxnews.com/us/derek-chauvin-trial-was-officers-knee-on-george-floyds-neck-authorized
The powerpoint pulled from the Minneapolis Police Dept. training materials that is half way down in this article from Fox News says it all. Floyd was resisting arrest. Chauvin and the other officers were doing what they were trained to do... period.
The problem is that the slide also says to shift the detainee to a recovery position.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/04/05/nolte-prominent-blm-activist-threatens-cities-fire-chauvin-not-convicted/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=daily&utm_campaign=20210405#
Sounds like a terroristic threat? encouraging an insurgency? why is that dirt bag not locked up?
Never rule out the margin for stupidity of jurors.
"We all gots blood."
Not to mention, "safeguard yourself and your family from that mob outside" is the key piece of "evidence" in the prosecutors case. That one is gonna weigh heavy in deliberation, he's counting on it.
ChattanoogaPhil
04-06-21, 10:39
Good luck convincing a jury that an unconscious man was actively resisting. Or that a training officer who is literately on top of a man can't differentiate between active resistance and unconsciousness for the period of time described in the Fox article. . If Chauvin was 'doing as they were trained' in the PP presentation Floyd would have been turned on his side rather than pinned down in the prone 'positional asphyxia' position till death. The officer that Chauvin was supposedly training suggested twice to put Floyd on his side. Chauvin apparently ignored such advice from his trainee and the PP presentation.
That said, if a knee to the neck isn't deadly force as the Lt. testified, that might make felony assault more difficult to demonstrate in order to get to a second-degree murder conviction.
teufelhund1918
04-06-21, 10:47
The problem is that the slide also says to shift the detainee to a recovery position.
To me it does look like he was in the recovery position when they had him on the ground and cuffed.... unless I don't understand what else entails a recovery position. Face down on the ground so that he doesn't swallow vomit along with airway open. Granted, perhaps Chauvin may have had his knee up higher on Floyd than maybe he was suppose to, but going from what was commonly told in the past, if the suspect is talking, he is breathing. I don't recall being told anything different before the whole Floyd arrest other than if the suspect is talking, then they are breathing. So if Chauvin was told the same thing, then unfortunately he probably saw no problem IMHO.
teufelhund1918
04-06-21, 10:55
Good luck convincing a jury that an unconscious man was actively resisting for the period of time described in the Fox article. Or that a training officer who is literately on top of a man can't differentiate between active resistance and unconsciousness. If the officers were indeed 'doing as they were trained' in the PP presentation Floyd would have been turned on his side rather than pinned down in the prone 'positional asphyxia' position till death.
That said, if a knee to the neck isn't deadly force as the Lt. testified, that might make felony assault more difficult to get to a second-degree murder conviction.
I'm not any sort of expert on drug overdoses for sure. But having dealt with having to restrain overdosed people, I can say that Floyd acted like a person who at the time OD'd on a what I would think was a synthetic drug. From what I've seen, the person goes from walking around like a zombie, to passing out and when they come around, it is like dealing with someone with super human strength. That is what Floyd's behavior during the time he was in the store til the time the police were trying to put him in the back of the car reminds me of.
To me it does look like he was in the recovery position when they had him on the ground and cuffed.... unless I don't understand what else entails a recovery position. Face down on the ground so that he doesn't swallow vomit along with airway open. Granted, perhaps Chauvin may have had his knee up higher on Floyd than maybe he was suppose to, but going from what was commonly told in the past, if the suspect is talking, he is breathing. I don't recall being told anything different before the whole Floyd arrest other than if the suspect is talking, then they are breathing. So if Chauvin was told the same thing, then unfortunately he probably saw no problem IMHO.
I don't know what their policy is, but our recovery position is on the side; better yet, in a seated position.
The whole if-you-are-talking-you-are-breathing thing...that is a really bad assessment tool. Go run 10 flights of stairs. At the end, you will be able to phonate and make words, and you'll be breathing, but see how well you are breathing. Just because you have an open airway and the ability to phonate does not give any indication as to quality of oxygenation or ventilation. That is a common thing with cops we've had to un-teach.
ChattanoogaPhil
04-06-21, 11:07
The defense should bring the LT and the Chief back who claimed he was not following their UOF policy and make them look like lying turds with the simple powerpoint. A picture being worth a thousand words and all that.
Indeed. The Lt. should be brought back to explain his testimony that a knee to the neck is deadly force.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/04/05/nolte-prominent-blm-activist-threatens-cities-fire-chauvin-not-convicted/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=daily&utm_campaign=20210405#
Sounds like a terroristic threat? encouraging an insurgency? why is that dirt bag not locked up?
I can tell you but that would be racist............
BoringGuy45
04-06-21, 11:47
The state is Minnesota. Chauvin is charged with unintentional second-degree murder and third-degree murder. Neither require intent to kill.
----------
2020 Minnesota Statutes
609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subd. 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or
More here: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19
-------------
2020 Minnesota Statutes
609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.
More here: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195
Based on the wording of these statutes, your argument is certainly logical. So I wouldn't discount a possibly, even a strong one, that he could get a conviction.
However, in the 3rd degree statute, they would have to show that Chauvin had a "depraved mind without regard for human life," in what he did. That could be a tall order if the defense is able to argue that Chauvin believed he was acting reasonably.
Also, in the 2nd degree statute, they would have to show that he was in the act of committing a felony. If he was being charged with official oppression, unlawful detainment, or aggravated assault, they could more easily make the murder charge stick. Thus, for the 2nd degree conviction, they would probably have to prove that either he intended to kill Floyd, or show that Chauvin's actions would have been felonies even if Floyd was alive. The thing is, right now, that ship has sailed.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you as much as I'm playing devil's advocate.
Yup...it's starting. Guilty or cities are gonna burn.
https://mobile.twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1379401279345205248
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-06-21, 12:16
Based on the wording of these statutes, your argument is certainly logical. So I wouldn't discount a possibly, even a strong one, that he could get a conviction.
However, in the 3rd degree statute, they would have to show that Chauvin had a "depraved mind without regard for human life," in what he did. That could be a tall order if the defense is able to argue that Chauvin believed he was acting reasonably.
Also, in the 2nd degree statute, they would have to show that he was in the act of committing a felony. If he was being charged with official oppression, unlawful detainment, or aggravated assault, they could more easily make the murder charge stick. Thus, for the 2nd degree conviction, they would probably have to prove that either he intended to kill Floyd, or show that Chauvin's actions would have been felonies even if Floyd was alive. The thing is, right now, that ship has sailed.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you as much as I'm playing devil's advocate.
I think that third-degree murder charge is where there is an ongoing litigation as to whether it means a specific action taken towards a specific person or whether or not it is a general action taken towards the general public. Right now I believe it is being interpreted as a at against a specific person. That is where all of the bystanders and his fellow officers telling Chauvin at that time that he was going to kill him is a major problem. Chauvin can’t say that he doesn’t know that his actions could lead to the death of Floyd. That’s why while using a kneeling on the suspect is permissible, there are limits and procedures to follow after employment.
It would seem to hinge on whether or not Chauvin was responsible for the care of Floyd after he handcuffed and restrained him on the ground. I think it is going to come down to how the law is explained to the jurors for their deliberation.
Yup...it's starting. Guilty or cities are gonna burn.
https://mobile.twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1379401279345205248
I think she means the drug dealer that sold him the dope that killed him
Andy
titsonritz
04-06-21, 13:37
Perhaps they should redeploy the NG surrounding the capitol to Minnesota and give them ammo.
Maybe, maybe not on the knee.
What's the deal with the "POLICE" license plate? Is that a Minneapolis thing?
https://youtu.be/6xj1jCdME7M
Because I only read a little regarding this trial, and because I don't see any mention in those reports. Does anyone have an idea how these witnesses are holding up under cross? With the vague and rather opinionated testimony I read about, I would expect the defense to be tearing them a new one on cross. I just haven't read anything of the sort.
If there can be “fiery but mostly peaceful protests” then there can very much be “fatal but mostly effective police work”
This trial and the square community’s reaction thereof is why I don’t have the faith anymore.
Enough black folks bitch and we gotta undo hundreds of years of society just to fix feelings.
We have too many golden calves. This is why civic nationalism will always fail and why Libertarianism is an open and public joke.
I will say this....if there wasn’t enough evidence to exonerate; they wouldn’t be resorting to threats of civil unrest.
Black_Sheep
04-06-21, 17:47
Maybe, maybe not on the knee.
What's the deal with the "POLICE" license plate? Is that a Minneapolis thing?
Most LE Agencies in Minnesota have POLICE or SHERIFF plates on squad cars.
If there can be “fiery but mostly peaceful protests” then there can very much be “fatal but mostly effective police work”
This trial and the square community’s reaction thereof is why I don’t have the faith anymore.
Enough black folks bitch and we gotta undo hundreds of years of society just to fix feelings.
We have too many golden calves. This is why civic nationalism will always fail and why Libertarianism is an open and public joke.
I will say this....if there wasn’t enough evidence to exonerate; they wouldn’t be resorting to threats of civil unrest.
Not sure what libertarian has to do with anything considering every problem of society is 100% the creation of liberal and conservative elites.
Probably like free market capitalism in potentially working if it was ever tried.
Most LE Agencies in Minnesota have POLICE or SHERIFF plates on squad cars.
Never seen that anywhere else. Seems like lots of potential for abuse.
Never seen that anywhere else. Seems like lots of potential for abuse.
How so? Never heard of it leading to any abuses in MN. I live in MN by the way.
Voodoochild
04-06-21, 18:29
Is there a live stream of the trial WITHOUT talking heads giving their "Unbiased" opinion?
How so? Never heard of it leading to any abuses in MN. I live in MN by the way.
Usually the only visible unique identifier on a fleet vehicle.
Usually the only visible unique identifier on a fleet vehicle.
Under cover police vehicles do not have the POLICE plate all of the time. Even so, under cover cars/SUV's are not hard to spot.
Is there a live stream of the trial WITHOUT talking heads giving their "Unbiased" opinion?
Only commentators get the original of anything of interest in the news or at least it seems that way at times.
Under cover police vehicles do not have the POLICE plate all of the time. Even so, under cover cars/SUV's are not hard to spot.
Then the issue wouldn't necessarily apply to the undercover vehicle.
Can a business get that deal on a plate? Say Bob's Vending Machines, Inc. buys 2 dozen 2021 Ford white vans and gets 24 license plates all stamped or printed BVMI?
With what I am getting at, how would anyone know if there abuses?
Black_Sheep
04-06-21, 19:23
Is there a live stream of the trial WITHOUT talking heads giving their "Unbiased" opinion?
Sky News has been pretty good in that regard...
Black_Sheep
04-06-21, 19:28
Each agency has unique graphics and a unit number so identification probably isn’t an issue. Minneapolis still uses a black and white paint scheme so they stick out like a sore thumb, maybe that’s by design...
Usually the only visible unique identifier on a fleet vehicle.
That's why they have those large numbers on the sides, front, and back. Most people are able to pick up the oversize numbers on 4 sides easier than small license plate numbers...........
That's why they have those large numbers on the sides, front, and back. Most people are able to pick up the oversize numbers on 4 sides easier than small license plate numbers...........
Oh ok, looked up pictures and there are numbers on the trunk/hatch and front quarter panels. Like I said, never seen those before and looks like something out of a souvenir shop.
Under cover police vehicles do not have the POLICE plate all of the time. Even so, under cover cars/SUV's are not hard to spot.
Undercover is not the same as unmarked.
eightmillimeter
04-06-21, 23:06
The prosecution is running out of steam as the more “professional” witnesses are being called.
I enjoyed the physician’s testimony yesterday, he clearly didn’t want to be there and called the balls and strikes as he saw them, regardless if he was right or not, based on the information he knew at the time.
I wholly believe this jury leaned heavily to the “hang the cop” side prior to the trial. I still believe this and if the prosecution can successfully mitigate the fentanyl issue, I can see a 3rd Murder conviction, because the depraved mind without due regard for human life is really a small step here. At the end of the day I believe this will be the conviction if there is one.
On the other hand, the defense “should” be able to raise plenty of reasonable doubt as to the cause of death. The defense chain of events is going to be:
1. Floyd feigns distress and is uncooperative to buy time to dispose/hide evidence (body cam from 2019 arrest where he acted identical to 2020 was ruled admissible)
2. Floyd injests pills of fentanyl to hide them, ultimately spitting most of it back out in the back of the car, after a high dose has absorbed
3. Chauvin et al call EMS
4. Chauvin et al hold Floyd on ground not knowing he ingested fentanyl, with knee on back/shoulder (not neck)
5. Floyd begins to have depressed respiration due to opioid overdose (high CO2 in blood gas as described by Dr)
5. Hypoxia is caused by the overdose, not the restraint
6. Cardiac arrest, too late for narcan even if Chauvin et al realized this was an OD
7. Death
The issue, if the prosecution is smart enough to have the ME bring it up, is Floyd’s norfentanyl (metabolite) level, which was between 4-5, which could not have happened in the short time he was alive post ingestion, which means that he already had some processed fentanyl in his system prior to the event. As an opioid user he certainly could have survived a fentanyl level of 11, but we will never know.
There is certainly enough there to cause reasonable doubt as to the cause of death.... but its going to come down to the better legal team and the jury.
The LA Sgt. use of force expert seems to be just feeling his way through... the state paid him 10k to opine it was excessive force... and so far he’s coming across that way.
The defense attorney is a very skilled cross examiner to be sure, but he needs to impact the jury emotionally in some way or reveal something bombshell in nature if he wants to get a result with “this” jury.
The prosecution has already laid the foundation for a mistrial simply because they keep parading in MPD employees to opine on the reasonableness of the force one after the other, of which none were qualified experts and all admitted they were not tasked with evaluating use of force in the legal context vs. their own opinion of MPD policy.
The jury is hearing bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, but the defense is making their points as well each time....
In a reasonable world this would already be an acquittal. We just won’t know until it’s over.
That said I do offer my non-expert opinion that the force used was excessive based on the totality of the circumstances, most important of which was the fact that Mr. Floyd, like it or not, was in Chauvin et als care. They likely could not have saved him if they wanted too, but none of them gave a shit and that’s why they are where they are. They just looked at that crowd with the biggest “you all STFU we know what we’re doing” looks, a little professionalism would have gone a long way. The excessive force in this case, not causing great bodily harm or death, amounts to nothing more than misdemeanor assault and a good civil suit.
Right now guys, I feel we’re at a point where we know what should happen with respect to the given charges, but it’s simply still too close to call.
Averageman
04-06-21, 23:30
The prosecution is running out of steam as the more “professional” witnesses are being called.
I enjoyed the physician’s testimony yesterday, he clearly didn’t want to be there and called the balls and strikes as he saw them, regardless if he was right or not, based on the information he knew at the time.
I wholly believe this jury leaned heavily to the “hang the cop” side prior to the trial. I still believe this and if the prosecution can successfully mitigate the fentanyl issue, I can see a 3rd Murder conviction, because the depraved mind without due regard for human life is really a small step here. At the end of the day I believe this will be the conviction if there is one.
On the other hand, the defense “should” be able to raise plenty of reasonable doubt as to the cause of death. The defense chain of events is going to be:
1. Floyd feigns distress and is uncooperative to buy time to dispose/hide evidence (body cam from 2019 arrest where he acted identical to 2020 was ruled admissible)
2. Floyd injests pills of fentanyl to hide them, ultimately spitting most of it back out in the back of the car, after a high dose has absorbed
3. Chauvin et al call EMS
4. Chauvin et al hold Floyd on ground not knowing he ingested fentanyl, with knee on back/shoulder (not neck)
5. Floyd begins to have depressed respiration due to opioid overdose (high CO2 in blood gas as described by Dr)
5. Hypoxia is caused by the overdose, not the restraint
6. Cardiac arrest, too late for narcan even if Chauvin et al realized this was an OD
7. Death
The issue, if the prosecution is smart enough to have the ME bring it up, is Floyd’s norfentanyl (metabolite) level, which was between 4-5, which could not have happened in the short time he was alive post ingestion, which means that he already had some processed fentanyl in his system prior to the event. As an opioid user he certainly could have survived a fentanyl level of 11, but we will never know.
There is certainly enough there to cause reasonable doubt as to the cause of death.... but its going to come down to the better legal team and the jury.
The LA Sgt. use of force expert seems to be just feeling his way through... the state paid him 10k to opine it was excessive force... and so far he’s coming across that way.
The defense attorney is a very skilled cross examiner to be sure, but he needs to impact the jury emotionally in some way or reveal something bombshell in nature if he wants to get a result with “this” jury.
The prosecution has already laid the foundation for a mistrial simply because they keep parading in MPD employees to opine on the reasonableness of the force one after the other, of which none were qualified experts and all admitted they were not tasked with evaluating use of force in the legal context vs. their own opinion of MPD policy.
The jury is hearing bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, but the defense is making their points as well each time....
In a reasonable world this would already be an acquittal. We just won’t know until it’s over.
That said I do offer my non-expert opinion that the force used was excessive based on the totality of the circumstances, most important of which was the fact that Mr. Floyd, like it or not, was in Chauvin et als care. They likely could not have saved him if they wanted too, but none of them gave a shit and that’s why they are where they are. They just looked at that crowd with the biggest “you all STFU we know what we’re doing” looks, a little professionalism would have gone a long way. The excessive force in this case, not causing great bodily harm or death, amounts to nothing more than misdemeanor assault and a good civil suit.
Right now guys, I feel we’re at a point where we know what should happen with respect to the given charges, but it’s simply still too close to call.
That's the smoothest explanation yet.
mattiep321
04-07-21, 06:40
That's the smoothest explanation yet.
Except for the giant leap about how "none of them gave a shit" about Floyd - fairly certain one of the non-shit-giving officers called EMS so that point should aid to exonerate the officers in my opinion. The concept of dying in the care of cops is neat and all but if the damage done by attempted suicide, drug ingestion, bullet holes, etc., is enough for the person to die before EMS arrives it's not on the officers. Reality sucks, but it's a thing.
Black_Sheep
04-07-21, 06:53
One of the officers that “didn’t give a shit” must have made the call to up the EMT response from a code 2 (no lights and sirens) to code 3 (lights and sirens).
joedirt199
04-07-21, 07:53
People don't realize the efforts turds will go through to avoid jail. Fake seizures, hyperventilate, fake heart attacks, rona +, etc. You tend to get numb to the complaints and there are more false than positive ones.
Don't mistake their not giving a shit to their amount of care. They gave him all the chances in the world to be a big boy and act like one. He chose to be a bitch.
ChattanoogaPhil
04-07-21, 08:09
The problem is that the slide also says to shift the detainee to a recovery position.
Based on testimony so far, that seems like the biggest hurdle for the defense. Keeping Floyd pinned down in the prone position with a knee to the neck and back for so long while Floyd repeatedly complains of not being able to breath, then eventually lapses into unconscious and death. Training officer testified to the importance of turning people on their side to avoid positional asphyxia. Doc testifies Floyd most likely died from asphyxia.
Perhaps the defense will provide testimony that keeping people who aren't actively resisting pinned down in the prone position until they die or EMS arrives, whichever comes first, is standard operating procedure.
If there can be “fiery but mostly peaceful protests” then there can very much be “fatal but mostly effective police work”
This trial and the square community’s reaction thereof is why I don’t have the faith anymore.
Enough black folks bitch and we gotta undo hundreds of years of society just to fix feelings.
We have too many golden calves. This is why civic nationalism will always fail and why Libertarianism is an open and public joke.
I will say this....if there wasn’t enough evidence to exonerate; they wouldn’t be resorting to threats of civil unrest.
Dude, people chomping at the bit to riot can't even pronounce the word exonerate. You are giving them way too much credit there. Some just want to break chit cuz "the man" is keeping them down. Any excuse to do so is all they need, and the rest is of no real interest. ANTIFA et al would like nothing more than him to be exonerated, whether they're consciously aware of that or not.
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