View Full Version : 6.5 Swede vs Creedmoor?
I have an old Oviedo Mauser action that has been Bubba'ed up. Rebarreled with a .300 Savage barrel that was then rechambered to .308, it was free...
I've debated building it into .257 Bob or 6.5 Swede. I have very little loading experience, but it seems like 6.5 Swede could be made to at least equal if not surpass 6.5 Creed. I may be stumbling across common knowledge or maybe I'm missing something, but thought I'd ask.
You’re on track.
Either 6.5 CM or 6.5X55 can handle heavy for caliber bullets that have great BC/SDs.
The nod goes to the Swede for case volume/potential velocity by same bullet weight.
A trainload of Moose in Scandinavia have been taken with the Swede.
I would assume “parts” may be a bit more difficult to source for 6.5X55 than the 6.5 CM.
The 6.5 Swede has about an 11% powder capacity advantage over the 6.5 Creedmoor, but the advantage of the Creedmoor is the design of the neck and the throat which allows it to handle heavier/longer bullets without intruding on the case. The Creedmoor has a faster twist rate to handle the higher BC bullets, but that could be matched easily in a rebarrel like your considering. If you're not needing or wanting to use the heavier bullets (which really strut at longer ranges beyond normal hunting distance) than the the Swede does have a slight edge if loaded to similar pressures.
However, if you don't reload, the 6.5 Creedmoor is going to be more readily available these days. At least, once the market returns to an equilibrium. The Swede does have a nice "cool" aspect to it, but the Creedmoor makes much more sense.
I posted before about the cartridge comparisons. I forgot which action you were using.
The Swede is usually loaded to just over 46,000 psi because of the old military actions chambered in them. The Creedmore runs at 62,000 psi, which was a proof load for the old military actions.
Considering your action, I'd stick to the Swede.
**The 257 Roberts lists 54,000 psi max**
Personally I'll most likely do the swede over the .257, and I'll run factory or milder reloads.
It's really a curiosity question for me. 6.5x55 Swede and .260Rem are "niche calibers" that few shooters care about (CONUS), but 6.5C is the prom queen. I get that there are differences between them, but no game will notice and you'd have to be amongst the best of shooters to prove any advantage. It's just wierd.
I have an old Oviedo Mauser action that has been Bubba'ed up. Rebarreled with a .300 Savage barrel that was then rechambered to .308, it was free...
Stupid question: Why not just leave it .308 (and free) and shoot it?
... 6.5C is the prom queen. I get that there are differences between them, but no game will notice and you'd have to be amongst the best of shooters to prove any advantage. It's just wierd.
It's not weird: It's good marketing.
You're right that the advantages of 6.5C don't matter in the real world for most shooters.
Making consumers think they need something, when they don't: Good marketing.
Convincing people to give up on something like .308 and switch to 6.5C: Brilliant marketing.
Stupid question: Why not just leave it .308 (and free) and shoot it?
I'm not real convinced it's safe as is. A smith I trust in Prescott suggested build it or give it to the local college smithing program but he didn't "feel good" about it. So now I don't "feel good" touching off a 308 in it.
I feel you. I’ve got a Bubba’d Mauser that needs a new barrel and stock. It’ll either end up as 6.5x55 or 9.3x62, depending on what a gunsmith yet to be retained has to say. Something classic, though.
Swede has enough ass to kill anything you’d kill with a 308. Or a CM. Or a .260... 6.5 Swede ammo is still on the store shelf; has been since 2019. Same with 260Rem, but 6.5CM has been completely absent. Food for thought.
gunnerblue
04-12-21, 00:55
The Swede has the greater case capacity so this is an obvious advantage. Really only applies to a long action, however, as the greater length of the Swede would force you to seat most bullets deeper in the case. Excellent brass is made by Lapua and Norma (among others) and probably always will be since it is a very popular hunting round in Scandanavia.
"6.5 Swede ammo is still on the store shelf; has been since 2019. Same with 260Rem, but 6.5CM has been completely absent. Food for thought." 1168
I have to agree with 1168. I have looked through most of the gun shops in my area and No One was any 6.5 Creedmoore. However, there are rifles chambered in the caliber in stock in quite a few shops. Many have been discounted. When it comes to .308 Winchester, I have seen the ammunition and purchased a couple of hundred rounds up until recently. Now, all I am seeing is 25.06 Remington, .257 Roberts, .280 AI, .300 WSM, and a few boxes of .260 Remington. Though I did see a few boxes of the 6.5 Swede in two shops. Most of the standard centerfire rifle cartridges are very difficult to find.
The ironic thing to me is even though I can walk into any gun shop any find several rifles in 6.5 CM, there are no .308 rifles anywhere in my area.
Moral of the story for myself is that I am sticking with .308 Winchester. I have seen at least two rifles in 6.5 CM that I was tempted to buy because of the discounted price, but no way to get ammo right now.
Even the most casual comparison of ballistics tables for 308win and 6.5 anything will show a tremendous advantage for the 6.5 over the 308win. They don’t call them cheater cartridges for nothing. Sure hornady did a great job marketing the 6.5creedmoor, but the 260rem, 6.5x47L, and 6.5swede along with a dozen other 6.5 and 6 mm cartridges will flat smoke the 308win. That’s why in both fclass and PRS style matches the 308 shoots in its own class. It can’t compete because of math, not marketing.
The 6.5swede is an excellent choice. However you might consider a compromise.... the 6.5swedemoor
A gunsmith who does business under the name Accuracy Addiction has a good Reamer and calls it the 6.5 Addiction, but everyone else calls it the swedemoor. Of course, you’ll have to reload your own Ammo.
The problem with both the 6.5swede and the 260rem is you can’t quite hit the optimal seating depth and still fit in an AICS style magazine. Since you’re rebarreling a Mauser, you won’t have this issue. Assuming you reload, you should be able to pick a bullet and have a gunsmith sort out the proper twist rate and throat for you.
Then the only real problem is putting $800 worth of gunsmithing into a gun that will immediately be worth a fraction of that. As long as you don’t need to sell it in the future, no prob
Even the most casual comparison of ballistics tables for 308win and 6.5 anything will show a tremendous advantage for the 6.5 over the 308win... It can’t compete because of math, not marketing.
I'm not arguing whether the 6.5 has better ballistics than .308: clearly it does.
The point that UtahJeep and I were making is that the 6.5 Creedmoor's better ballistics are moot for most shooters most of the time (or even, most shooters all the time, and all shooters most of the time).
It reminds me of those guys who buy heavy duty pick-ups... to go shopping at Costco.
The problem with both the 6.5swede and the 260rem is you can’t quite hit the optimal seating depth and still fit in an AICS style magazine.
The 6.5Swede I get, but the 260 Remington and 6.5 Creedmore have the same COL. Sure you have to seat the same bullet a litter deeper in the 260 Remington, but that's only because the shoulder is a little further forward.
The 6.5Swede I get, but the 260 Remington and 6.5 Creedmore have the same COL. Sure you have to seat the same bullet a litter deeper in the 260 Remington, but that's only because the shoulder is a little further forward.
sure, but that's important. look at the 260 (left) vs 6.5cm (right)
and then a berger hybrid
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/imag35/260vs54CM.jpghttps://bergerbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/26485-ConsumerChart-Wide.jpg
now years ago, when i was shooting 260rem, i was using berger VLD which only have a .424 bearing surface, and a longer tail, despite being very close on overall length of bullet, at 1.387. If i wanted to seat the bullet where the bearing surface/boat tail junction of the bullet was at the neck/shoulder junction of the brass, the OAL of the cartridge would be 2.9305, which won't fit in the mag. I have to seat the bullet deeper (taking up case capacity). And that's with the longer tail already taking up some capacity.
the 6.5cm by comparison, with the vld is 2.790" which leaves 90 thou of room in the mag, so if one were so inclined, they could seat the bullet out farther to chase lands or whatever. and when the hybrid came out, with it's shorter tail and longer bearing surface, it gives you even more room to play with seating depth.
2.880" max OAL for AICS magazine
260rem case length 2.035 neck length .2595
6.5cm case length 1.920
don't get me wrong. 260rem is a great cartridge. it was just designed for lighter bullets. it has a short neck, and long shoulder, which isn't great and contributes to having to trim brass more between firings. if you look at the popular benchrest cartridges, they have steep shoulders and long necks for accuracy and efficiency. the CM shoulder and neck are a good compromise for accuracy and reliable feeding in a gas gun.
Great info/insight Taliv.
now years ago, when i was shooting 260rem, i was using berger VLD which only have a .424 bearing surface, and a longer tail, despite being very close on overall length of bullet, at 1.387. If i wanted to seat the bullet where the bearing surface/boat tail junction of the bullet was at the neck/shoulder junction of the brass, the OAL of the cartridge would be 2.9305, which won't fit in the mag. I have to seat the bullet deeper (taking up case capacity). And that's with the longer tail already taking up some capacity.
the 6.5cm by comparison, with the vld is 2.790" which leaves 90 thou of room in the mag, so if one were so inclined, they could seat the bullet out farther to chase lands or whatever. and when the hybrid came out, with it's shorter tail and longer bearing surface, it gives you even more room to play with seating depth.
2.880" max OAL for AICS magazine
260rem case length 2.035 neck length .2595
6.5cm case length 1.920
From what you're saying it seems to me that the advantage of the 6.5CM is that the case is shorter which allows for a longer bullet outside of the case mouth. It just seems odd to me that a shorter case with less capacity would have an advantage.
don't get me wrong. 260rem is a great cartridge. it was just designed for lighter bullets. it has a short neck, and long shoulder, which isn't great and contributes to having to trim brass more between firings. if you look at the popular benchrest cartridges, they have steep shoulders and long necks for accuracy and efficiency. the CM shoulder and neck are a good compromise for accuracy and reliable feeding in a gas gun.
I definitely understand that the sharper shoulder and longer neck would be advantageous all else being equal.
Since we’re on the topic, something (hypothetical) that has always confused me: wouldn’t a 260 still have more case capacity than a 6.5 CM with the longer bullet intruding, assuming both are seated to the same OAL? I get the part about the case geometry being less well-suited to the longer bullets, and some may not work at all, but capacity should still be more with the 260, correct?
I also expected a .260 Rem case to have slightly more capacity than the 6.5 Creedmoor, but I appear to have been wrong.
According to QuickLOAD, 44.7 grains of Reloder 19 fills the .260 Rem case to 105% capacity, with a 140 grain ELD-M loaded to 2.850" OAL. The chamber pressure is 59,614 psi at 2816 fps.
The same amount of powder, same bullet, and same OAL for the 6.5 Creedmoor results in the case being 101.6% full. The chamber pressure is 55,816 psi, with a resulting (estimated) velocity of 2776 fps.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/case_capacity_matters.html
Chucky says 260 holds a full grain more water than 6.5cm so you’re right. However the tail of the bullet back in the case also matters. What is it the cool kids say these days? People don’t think shoulder angle be like it is, but it do.
From what you're saying it seems to me that the advantage of the 6.5CM is that the case is shorter which allows for a longer bullet outside of the case mouth. It just seems odd to me that a shorter case with less capacity would have an advantage. Yep that’s what I’m saying (shorter case, longer neck). If that seems odd check out what cartridges hold all the 1000 yard benchrest records. They’re prob all based on 6BR cases. I doubt you’ll find a magnum in the bunch.
Yep that’s what I’m saying (shorter case, longer neck). If that seems odd check out what cartridges hold all the 1000 yard benchrest records. They’re prob all based on 6BR cases. I doubt you’ll find a magnum in the bunch.
Actually, you’d be surprised. The 6BR rocks at short range and 600, but for 1000 you indeed do see magnums. Largely, .284 Wheeler, 7WSM, .300WSM, 6.5-284, and so on. The smaller cases like the PPCs and the BRs just don’t have the gas for the wind.
I believe the recent 1,000 yard record was set with a .300WSM firing a clean score and ten-round group of something like 2.69”.
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In 2018, Mike Wilson shot a record setting 5-shot group measuring 1.068 in (27.1 mm) at 1,000 yd (910 m), which corresponds to an angular size of 0.102 moa or 0.029 mrad. The record was set shooting the 6mmBR Ackley Improved cartridge in good weather conditions, and the group was even centered in the X-ring.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/04/best-10-shot-1000-yard-group-in-history-be-amazed/
onsider this — we believe this is the smallest 10-shot group ever shot at 1000 yards in any form of rifle competition, by anyone, anywhere, anytime. It is smaller than the existing Williamsport Light Gun and Heavy Gun 1K records. The IBS and NBRSA do not shoot 10 rounds for Light Gun, but this 2.6872″ group is smaller than the current IBS (3.044″) and NBRSA (4.322″) ten-shot HEAVY GUN records.
Jim Richards Montana Missoula Deep Creek Williamsport World Record
This amazing group was shot by Jim Richards at the Deep Creek Range outside Missoula, Montana during the 4th Light Gun Relay of a 1000-yard match. Jim was shooting the small 6mm Dasher cartridge with 105gr Berger bullets.
There may be newer world records but the 2018 1.068” 5 shot 1000yard group shot with a 6BRA (ackley) and the 2014 ten round 2.687” 1000yard group with a 6dasher (also based on 6BR) are still pretty respectable and are definitely long range capable.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/matt-kline-shoots-2-815-record-at-1000-yards-with-300-wsm/
I think I found the record you’re talking about though but it was 2010. Dang good shootin.
On point for this thread though. Look at pics of the 300wsm. Looks almost like a scaled up 6.5cm wrt neck and shoulder
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/04/08/world-record-nbrsa-1000-yard/
Here’s the article I was referencing.
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http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/matt-kline-shoots-2-815-record-at-1000-yards-with-300-wsm/
I think I found the record you’re talking about though but it was 2010. Dang good shootin.
On point for this thread though. Look at pics of the 300wsm. Looks almost like a scaled up 6.5cm wrt neck and shoulder
Taliv, if I currently have a 6.5CM and wanted to rebarrel once it’s shot out to extend the range for both hunting and shooting steel out past 1k (dare I say a mile?), BUT without going to a long action AND keeping an 18-20” barrel form factor (+ suppressor), would the 300WSM be the best option for that?
I wasn’t sure how inherently accurate the 300WSM was, so it would be nice to know it’s somewhere close to the 6.5CM since I can shoot consistent 3/4” groups with the cheap Hornsby stuff without trying very hard.
Taliv, if I currently have a 6.5CM and wanted to rebarrel once it’s shot out to extend the range for both hunting and shooting steel out past 1k (dare I say a mile?), BUT without going to a long action AND keeping an 18-20” barrel form factor (+ suppressor), would the 300WSM be the best option for that?
I wasn’t sure how inherently accurate the 300WSM was, so it would be nice to know it’s somewhere close to the 6.5CM since I can shoot consistent 3/4” groups with the cheap Hornsby stuff without trying very hard.
First, you’d need to have the bolt opened up. Second, you’d be majorly hamstringing they cartridge in such a short barrel. Finally. The notion of “inherently accurate” is a bit of a misnomer in the first place.
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I’ll refrain from giving advice on the 300wsm since I’ve never owned one, know nothing about their ballistics and obviously didn’t know anyone used them for benchrest until last night.
I wouldn’t use it for hunting but I will say I have shot my 6.5x47 Lapua to a mile many times and even took 7th place in the ELR PRS match in WY with it against 300win mags and 300nm. So I’m quite certain you can hit steel at a mile with your 6.5cm which will shoot the same bullets 100fps faster. Just have to make good wind calls.
I’m not much of a hunter but I believe 6.5mm is generally regarded as excellent for hunting due to the penetration. But idk how to get much more performance out of short action with 308 bolt face than the CM. I ran a 260AI for a long time that worked great. But it suffered from all the OAL problems of the 260rem plus fireforming brass is a pain and quite expensive these days. I’d guess you could comfortably get a 140g bullet to 2950fps or so out of a 20” bbl.
daddyusmaximus
05-10-21, 19:13
My Swedish is done...
https://i.imgur.com/Ld8lX3M.jpg
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