View Full Version : Help me pick my first "real" optic
So not exactly my first but the first of it’s kind for me…
I’m currently using aimpoint Micro’s on my AR’s and traditional Leupold scopes on my 22’s. That’s about the extent of my scope experiences.
I’m setting up a new AR-10 and am looking at LPVO’s. I really don’t anticipate shooting beyond 400-500 yards.
I have a healthy budget for this. I’m comfortable spending up to $3,000 but don’t want to spend more than necessary.
Since I’m kinda new to this type of shooting and don’t have any method polluting my brain, I’m open to either MRAD or MOA. In either case I prefer first focal plane and I occasionally shoot at dawn/dusk.
I really wanted a thermal scope, but I can’t find anything that works as well in daylight as it does at night. If something like that exists, I would love to hear about it!
So far I’ve narrowed it down to these optics, solely based on reputation, but am certainly open to others:
Vortex RAZOR HD GEN III 1-10X24 FFP ($2,900) - https://vortexoptics.com/riflescopes/vortex-razor-gen-iii-riflescopes/vortex-razor-hd-gen-iii-1-10x24-riflescope.html
Nightforce ATACR 1-8x24 ($2,800) - https://www.nightforceoptics.com/riflescopes/atacr/atacr-1-8x24-f1
Primary Arms PLx 1-8x24mm ($1,500) - https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-plx8-1-8x24mm-first-focal-plane-rifle-scope-illuminated-acss-griffin-mil-reticle
Trijicon Credo 1-8x28 ($1,800) - https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/cr828-c-2900032
There are some significant price differences between the Primary Arms and Trijicon vs the Vortex and Nightforce. Is the quality between these brands significant enough to warrant such an increase? Again, I have the budget, but why spend extra money if its not necessary?
Back to thermal… is there an add-on or attachment to add thermal capabilities to any of these scopes?
Thanks for reading and your feedback/recommendations!
I have owned all of those optics except the PA one, and I have used that one. That being said, get the Vortex RAZOR HD GEN III 1-10X24 FFP. Hands down it is the best of the group.
titsonritz
04-13-21, 14:34
I have owned all of those optics except the PA one, and I have used that one. That being said, get the Vortex RAZOR HD GEN III 1-10X24 FFP. Hands down it is the best of the group.
Hands down even over the ATACR? Hmmm, besides the additional 2x how is the Razor better?
Hands down even over the ATACR? Hmmm, besides the additional 2x how is the Razor better?
FOV numbers on 1X are very, very different. I've got no time on either so I'm not making an endorsement/criticism, just pointing out a spec sheet difference.
SomeOtherGuy
04-13-21, 15:00
I’m setting up a new AR-10 and am looking at LPVO’s. I really don’t anticipate shooting beyond 400-500 yards.
I have a healthy budget for this. I’m comfortable spending up to $3,000 but don’t want to spend more than necessary.
Since I’m kinda new to this type of shooting
What kind of shooting? Do you actually need 1x at the low end, like you're going to be doing 3-gun or kicking in doors?
Even at "just" 400-500 yards you may find yourself wanting more than 10x. Sure, you can use 10x at 500 yards - no big deal. People have made hits at 1700 yards with iron sights. But it's not ideal, and unless you need the 1x low end, you can easily go to higher magnification and a much larger exit pupil without spending any more money. Something like a 3-18x would be an option.
No argument with the listed 1-8x and 1-10x scopes if you need 1x.
That's a good point that I neglected to mention. True 1X is definitely a huge thing for me. For reference I tried an ACOG with 1.5 magnification and it just throws me off. I'm not kicking in doors or anything like that; pretty much just target shooting. I put 400-500 yards as the absolute maximum simply because the longest range within 2 hours from me is 200 yards and they might one day expand it. My other biggest requirement is dawn/dusk shooting. Don't know if any of these scopes offer any advantage over another in that regards. And of course I neglected FOV, which would be nice to have a lot of, but isn't my biggest concern given the narrow focus of this gun.
Yeah, that's what I'm hearing from a few shooters I spoke with as well. Have a friend with a Gen2 out of state. May try to borrow it to try...
Vortex Razor Gen III 1-10x24 EBR-9 MRAD Riflescope RZR-11002 $1,999.99
https://www.eurooptic.com/Vortex-Razor-Gen-III-1-10x24-EBR-9-MRAD-Riflescope-RZR-11002.aspx
I have owned all of those optics except the PA one, and I have used that one. That being said, get the Vortex RAZOR HD GEN III 1-10X24 FFP. Hands down it is the best of the group.
Yeah, that's what I'm hearing from a few shooters I spoke with as well. Have a friend with a Gen2 out of state. May try to borrow it to try...
Another vote for Razor HD.
https://www.eurooptic.com/Vortex-Razor-Gen-III-1-10x24-EBR-9-MRAD-Riflescope-RZR-11002.aspx
Not pulling the trigger just yet, but cheaper here https://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-razor-hd-gen-iii-1-10x24-riflescope.html and coupon code "HONEY" brings it down to $1890. However, it's currently out of stock.
SomeOtherGuy
04-13-21, 20:13
That's a good point that I neglected to mention. True 1X is definitely a huge thing for me. For reference I tried an ACOG with 1.5 magnification and it just throws me off. I'm not kicking in doors or anything like that; pretty much just target shooting. I put 400-500 yards as the absolute maximum simply because the longest range within 2 hours from me is 200 yards and they might one day expand it. My other biggest requirement is dawn/dusk shooting. Don't know if any of these scopes offer any advantage over another in that regards. And of course I neglected FOV, which would be nice to have a lot of, but isn't my biggest concern given the narrow focus of this gun.
I would get a scope that makes sense for target shooting, and put an offset or top-mounted RDS on the rifle if you really want that true 1x capability.
For dawn/dusk shooting you need:
-exit pupil
-glass quality (coatings)
-illumination, unless you're hunting and your state bans illumination for hunting purposes
Glass quality is no issue in your price range. Exit pupil is huge though. Exit pupil cannot exceed the objective diameter divided by the magnification. So that Vortex 1-10x24 will give you a 2.4mm exit pupil at 10x, which is marginal - not ideal in bright daylight, way too small at dusk. a 3-18x50 would give you 2.77mm at 18x, or 5mm at 10x, which is far better. Ideal exit pupil for dim light is 7mm; in bright light it's mostly personal preference, but 3-4mm usually gives a better eyebox and feel than smaller.
Field of view is mostly independent of objective size, but sometimes is slightly better with smaller objectives. In theory, larger objectives give more resolution, and smaller objectives give more FOV and depth of field, but in practice the scope manufacturer's engineering skill and price point outweigh the theoretical benefits. But not for exit pupil, that isn't flexible.
The 1-10x is a sub-marginal choice for conventional target shooting and for dim light. Don't care what you buy, just trying to help you buy the right thing based on your goals.
If you want to look at other options, consider:
Nightforce NX8 2.5-20x50
Leupold Mark 6 3-18x44
Leupold Mark 5 3.6-18x44 (reportedly better than the older Mark 6 in some ways)
Burris XTR Gen3 (US Made) 3.3-18x50
Vortex Razor 3-18x50 (weighs about as much as a tank)
Various Schmidt Bender, Kahles, Swarovski, etc.
if you're just target shooting, the extra $1000 for the NF is a waste of money. I own/owned the NF, and the gen2 vortex 1-6, and several other LPVO but not the gen3 1-10 vortex (yet), but i have played with them. I speculate that the NF is more rugged. It's for sure excellent glass, but the vortex is probably better for target shooting and 3gun style range stuff. That's the way I'd go anyway. swarovski and kahles also make 1-8x LPVO that have awesome glass.
if low light is a real concern, you can dial the magnification down to brighten the image as you're losing light. you can also get a bigger objective, but that starts to add a lot of weight
sidewaysil80
04-14-21, 06:23
That's a good point that I neglected to mention. True 1X is definitely a huge thing for me. For reference I tried an ACOG with 1.5 magnification and it just throws me off. I'm not kicking in doors or anything like that; pretty much just target shooting. I put 400-500 yards as the absolute maximum simply because the longest range within 2 hours from me is 200 yards and they might one day expand it. My other biggest requirement is dawn/dusk shooting. Don't know if any of these scopes offer any advantage over another in that regards. And of course I neglected FOV, which would be nice to have a lot of, but isn't my biggest concern given the narrow focus of this gun.
If 1x is very important to you, and you’re only shooting out to 500yds, I’d suggest a non FFP/1-6. Either the Kahles 1-6 or Razor Gen II 1-6. Both of those have unarguably the most forgiving eyebox and largest FOV at 1x. If you’re shooting on either 1x or 6x the FFP isn’t necessary. If you’re not comfortable and want more power, the Kahles 1-8 is an option. When you go from SFP to FFP as well as increase max magnification, the tradeoff is 1x performance. Hence me suggesting sfp 1-6’s.
Advise going MRAD/MIL/MIL for any tactical stuff.
If (and when) you shoot with others most or all will be versed in MIL spotting/DOPE.
MOA is fine, but I see it used primarily in games/legit target shooting.
Hands down even over the ATACR? Hmmm, besides the additional 2x how is the Razor better?
Field of view, eye box, and I really like the recital better. The Vortex Gen III on 1X is truly awesome. One of the best scopes for 1X out there and 10X will really get you out there if you need it. I have one on my 308 Noveske AR and was rocking steel at 600 yards with no issues.
That's a good point that I neglected to mention. True 1X is definitely a huge thing for me. For reference I tried an ACOG with 1.5 magnification and it just throws me off. I'm not kicking in doors or anything like that; pretty much just target shooting. I put 400-500 yards as the absolute maximum simply because the longest range within 2 hours from me is 200 yards and they might one day expand it. My other biggest requirement is dawn/dusk shooting. Don't know if any of these scopes offer any advantage over another in that regards. And of course I neglected FOV, which would be nice to have a lot of, but isn't my biggest concern given the narrow focus of this gun.
If 1X is definitely a huge thing for you, FOV (at 1x) should be a big concern for you.
A lot of wise words in this thread that I certainly kept in mind when I decided to go with the Primary Arms SLx 3-18x50mm FFP Rifle Scope (https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx6-3-18x50-sfp-rifle-scope-gen-3-illuminated-acss-hud-dmr-308-reticle)
Honestly, I was prepared to spend much, much more and I will be the first to admit this isn't the top-tier scope I had in mind. That being said, a friend of mine let me borrow his and I really, really like the reticle. It's absolutely perfect for this rifle. The glass isn't perfect, but it's danm close and the eye relief, eye box, FOV, etc. are all great. I had to give on on the true 1X that I really wanted, but I rationalized the higher magnification would come in handy as this will be a mid to long range rifle more than a close range one.
If Vortex, Leupold or some other higher-tier manufacturer had this exact reticle I would have absolutely considered them. I'm looking forward to trying it out this summer with a "guess the distance" game.
Thank you all for the much appreciated and valued advice!!
not to pick nits, but "giving on true 1x" usually means like 1.1x, not 3x
BDC reticles are appropriate if all of the following are true:
-you will only use the exact ammo they were designed for
-you have giant friggin targets
-you don't really care if you hit or miss them
-your targets are precisely spaced 100 yards apart and never closer or farther
-you never plan to adjust for weather, light, angle to target, spin drift, or really anything at all
-you will never spot for anyone or have anyone spot for you
-your barrel doesn't speed up or slow down over the life of the scope
I'm a fan of Leupold.
That said, I'm not super sold on the whole LPVO thing. I've had several, and I noticed the same thing everyone else does, you never use the magnification range. You either use it at 1x (and most are truly lacking in that department) or all the way zoomed in.
With that in mind, I'm starting to warm back up to either magnifiers or offset micro red dots. Not saying LPVOs are bad, but the good ones are crazy expensive, and I'm just not sure if they really offer any extra utility. The only I've seen that really makes sense to me is the S&B short dot, and yea, crazy expensive.
If you do decide to go that route, I would emphasize 1st focal plane. There is simply no reticle that's usable at 1x that's going to be useful at 6x+, and the other way around. Even then, many if not most have extremely fat reticles that are essentially useless at distance. The good ones have a separate dot in the second focal plane, but again those are the really expensive ones.
I'm a fan of Leupold.
That said, I'm not super sold on the whole LPVO thing. I've had several, and I noticed the same thing everyone else does, you never use the magnification range. You either use it at 1x (and most are truly lacking in that department) or all the way zoomed in.
With that in mind, I'm starting to warm back up to either magnifiers or offset micro red dots. Not saying LPVOs are bad, but the good ones are crazy expensive, and I'm just not sure if they really offer any extra utility. The only I've seen that really makes sense to me is the S&B short dot, and yea, crazy expensive.
If you do decide to go that route, I would emphasize 1st focal plane. There is simply no reticle that's usable at 1x that's going to be useful at 6x+, and the other way around. Even then, many if not most have extremely fat reticles that are essentially useless at distance. The good ones have a separate dot in the second focal plane, but again those are the really expensive ones.
It's not difficult to find a reticle that's good at 1X and also good for more precise shots at least through the point blank range of a typical AR, so 200-250 yards depending on specifics.
What scopes/reticles have you used?
Just using a flip to side magnifier because of the "you only use 1x or max" might make more sense if magnifiers had better eye relief or if they had more magnification than literally half (or less than half) of what most LPVO's have. 3x with short eye relief and darker glass just doesn't compare to 6x+ and clearer glass with more eye relief
It's not difficult to find a reticle that's good at 1X and also good for more precise shots at least through the point blank range of a typical AR, so 200-250 yards depending on specifics.
What scopes/reticles have you used?
Just using a flip to side magnifier because of the "you only use 1x or max" might make more sense if magnifiers had better eye relief or if they had more magnification than literally half (or less than half) of what most LPVO's have. 3x with short eye relief and darker glass just doesn't compare to 6x+ and clearer glass with more eye relief
Magnifiers have come a long ways in the last few years, just like LPVO. Either way, there are tradeoffs. At least the magnifier route doesn't suck at 1x, and is okay at 3x or 6x. Whereas the average LPVO has distortion at 1x and a crappy reticle that sucks at any range. Like I said, there are decent ones out there, but they're super expensive.
Unless you're prepared to spring for a Short Dot, I think a fixed power scope and offset RMR give you more utility.
Magnifiers have come a long ways in the last few years, just like LPVO. Either way, there are tradeoffs. At least the magnifier route doesn't suck at 1x, and is okay at 3x or 6x. Whereas the average LPVO has distortion at 1x and a crappy reticle that sucks at any range. Like I said, there are decent ones out there, but they're super expensive.
Unless you're prepared to spring for a Short Dot, I think a fixed power scope and offset RMR give you more utility.
A good LPVO selected to do well at 1X also does not suck at 1X. And it doesn't have to be super expensive.
What 6X RDS magnifier are you using?
I notice you chose to avoid answering the "what scopes/reticles have you used?" question. Why is that?
What RDS and magnifier are you using for the comparison?
A good LPVO selected to do well at 1X also does not suck at 1X. And it doesn't have to be super expensive.
What 6X RDS magnifier are you using?
I notice you chose to avoid answering the "what scopes/reticles have you used?" question. Why is that?
What RDS and magnifier are you using for the comparison?
I'm not going to play the pissing match game. I know all too well how that goes.
That said, even the best ones still have distortion at 1x, and the mid tier ones have a lot of it, and the entry level ones can't even be said to have a 1x setting period.
And any reticle that's good for a dot at 1x is going to suck at 4x, and even more at 6x. First focal plane reticles are slightly better, and rival a red dot up close, but are too fat for precise shooting. That's why the high end ones all have a separate dot in the second plane and a dedicated reticle in the first. Any reticle that's dialed in for 6-8x is going to completely vanish when you dial out to 1x. And even if you have a dedicated reticle in the first plane, you still have to have a separate illumination or no illumination. They exist, but they're very heavy and very expensive.
What I'm saying is you can get an awesome amazing scope with an amazing reticle, plus an offset RMR, for far less money, and it's going to be lighter and offer more utility all around.
And any reticle that's good for a dot at 1x is going to suck at 4x, and even more at 6x.
False
First focal plane reticles are slightly better, and rival a red dot up close, but are too fat for precise shooting.
False.
Unless you consider a crisp semi-transparent 1 MOA dot too fat
Any reticle that's dialed in for 6-8x is going to completely vanish when you dial out to 1x.
False
What I'm saying is you can get an awesome amazing scope with an amazing reticle, plus an offset RMR, for far less money, and it's going to be lighter and offer more utility all around.
Perhaps so, but that doesn't make any of the prior claims about LPVO's to be universally true.
You should try some good ones, just for your own information/knowledge/experience
What RDS and magnifier are you comparing to?
What magnifier are you using for 6X as you previously referenced?
False
False.
Unless you consider a crisp semi-transparent 1 MOA dot too fat
False
Perhaps so, but that doesn't make any of the prior claims about LPVO's to be universally true.
You should try some good ones, just for your own information/knowledge/experience
What RDS and magnifier are you comparing to?
What magnifier are you using for 6X as you previously referenced?
What do you consider to be the good ones?
What do you consider to be the good ones?
What RDS and magnifier are you comparing to?
What LPVO's have you used?
What 6x magnifier were you referring to earlier?
Do you consider a 1 MOA semi-transparent dot too fat for precise work?
What RDS and magnifier are you comparing to?
What LPVO's have you used?
What 6x magnifier were you referring to earlier?
Do you consider a 1 MOA semi-transparent dot too fat for precise work?
Aaaaand here comes the pissing match...
Like I said, I'm not going there, and I'm not going to start slaughtering sacred cows by dissing somebody's favorite brand. I will just leave it at saying I've sampled some of the good ones and wasn't impressed. It's obvious we have different standards as to what constitutes a usable dot/reticle. If I'm going to zoom in to 6 or 8 x then I want a fine illuminated mildot reticle. If I'm going 1x, I want a nice sized dot I can pick up on easily. That's a tall-and expensive-order to fill in an LPVO.
Aaaaand here comes the pissing match...
Like I said, I'm not going there, and I'm not going to start slaughtering sacred cows by dissing somebody's favorite brand. I will just leave it at saying I've sampled some of the good ones and wasn't impressed. It's obvious we have different standards as to what constitutes a usable dot/reticle. If I'm going to zoom in to 6 or 8 x then I want a fine illuminated mildot reticle. If I'm going 1x, I want a nice sized dot I can pick up on easily. That's a tall-and expensive-order to fill in an LPVO.
Don't make claims if you aren't going to support them.
Since you lack any experience or knowledge about the topic, maybe don't pretend that you do?
You can be not impressed...but making objectively false broad brush statements as you have in this thread is a different matter. Example "There is simply no reticle that's usable at 1x that's going to be useful at 6x+, and the other way around. " is just plain wrong and shows your lack of experience/knowledge.
What you want exists, you just have a preconceived notion that it doesn't, and clearly haven't tried any of the scopes that you should have.
I'm still wondering what RDS/magnifier you are comparing to and what 6X magnifier you are using, though.
Don't make claims if you aren't going to support them.
Since you lack any experience or knowledge about the topic, maybe don't pretend that you do?
You can be not impressed...but making objectively false broad brush statements as you have in this thread is a different matter. Example "There is simply no reticle that's usable at 1x that's going to be useful at 6x+, and the other way around. " is just plain wrong and shows your lack of experience/knowledge.
What you want exists, you just have a preconceived notion that it doesn't, and clearly haven't tried any of the scopes that you should have.
I'm still wondering what RDS/magnifier you are comparing to and what 6X magnifier you are using, though.
Okay, if it exists, what is it? Because I can think of exactly two, and I like them, but they are insanely expensive.
Warp and Okie--knock off the crap and drive on----
I have owned all of those optics except the PA one, and I have used that one. That being said, get the Vortex RAZOR HD GEN III 1-10X24 FFP. Hands down it is the best of the group.
Field of view, eye box, and I really like the reticle better. The Vortex Gen III on 1X is truly awesome. One of the best scopes for 1X out there and 10X will really get you out there if you need it. I have one on my 308 Noveske AR and was rocking steel at 600 yards with no issues.
Another vote for Razor HD.
This is my official vote as well.
I had a Gen II E and it was fantastic, but I once the III came out I knew it was a matter of time until I upgraded. Was not disappointed.
It's a great RDS sub (as much as an LPVO that doesn't have unlimited eye relief can be) at 1X with the nuclear bright eye grabbing red dot, yet also works extremely well for higher power precise shooting with the semi-transparent 1 MOA center dot.
The center dot and the four surrounding hash marks are all illuminated, and at low power (like 1-2x, maybe 3x depending) the hash marks coalesce with the center dot to give you the nice big bright RDS that you want for speed at low power/1x. But as soon as you dial in any zoom, they separate, and the partly see-through 1 MOA center is excellent for carefully aimed precision.
You can find a lot of in depth reviews and reticle breakdowns on YouTube and forums if you want to learn more, but a little prequel: The SME's and YouTube personas I trust (like Aaron Cowan, Defoor, John Lovell, Mike aka Garand Thumb, etc) I have found universally praise it.
It really seems like a can't-go-wrong choice.
I said previously that with your concern for 1X, you should be concerned with FOV. Well, the Razors have fantastic FOV. The Gen III has a tiny bit more than the Gen II, even, and despite being a FFP that goes to 10x, it's FOV on 1x bests many of the best SFP scopes out there
At the same time, you are talking about 500 yards...so the super usable FFP reticle and 10x mag also appears to be a great match for your intentions. I sure as hell wouldn't want to use a 3x magnifier on an RDS shooting to 500 yards or anywhere even close.
If 1x is very important to you, and you’re only shooting out to 500yds, I’d suggest a non FFP/1-6. Either the Kahles 1-6 or Razor Gen II 1-6. Both of those have unarguably the most forgiving eyebox and largest FOV at 1x. If you’re shooting on either 1x or 6x the FFP isn’t necessary. If you’re not comfortable and want more power, the Kahles 1-8 is an option. When you go from SFP to FFP as well as increase max magnification, the tradeoff is 1x performance. Hence me suggesting sfp 1-6’s.
I have both (K16i SMI for the Kahles) and they are 1x eyebox monsters.
But you know what? The FFP Gen III Razor falls in between those two. More FOV than the Gen II, little less than the Kahles.
The Gen III Razor is just a winner
sidewaysil80
04-25-21, 10:18
I have both (K16i SMI for the Kahles) and they are 1x eyebox monsters.
But you know what? The FFP Gen III Razor falls in between those two. More FOV than the Gen II, little less than the Kahles.
The Gen III Razor is just a winner
I didn’t think so at all. Noticeably tighter then the GEN II. Great for what it is (10x, ffp), but I def didn’t think comparable, much less better.
just a comment about the type of shooting one is likely to do. wild speculation here, but were in i someplace like oklahoma where you might want to shoot something really close, but you can also see 15 miles in every direction, the odds that i would either be on 1x or max magnification are pretty good. flipping a magnifier back and forth might be a pretty good solution.
last year i moved into the national forest in the east TN mountains, and my thoughts have changed a bit. I mostly practice on 6" circles, from 10-160 yards or so, and my eyes are not what they used to be.
I find that even the 1.2x mag is noticeably slower on the shot timer than 1x, so i definitely like the 1x for up close targets. and if I'm shooting out to 300-400-500 yards, i definitely like the 8x. but in the 80-120 yard range, with targets deep in the woods, i find it helps to move the dial to 2x-3x. Anything more and I get slower. Anything less and i start leaking rounds just off the edge of the plate.
on 1x, i feel like i'm shooting a red dot. one 8x i feel like i'm shooting precision rifle. on 2-3x i feel like i'm wearing reading glasses. I don't really use 4-7x
I didn’t think so at all. Noticeably tighter then the GEN II. Great for what it is (10x, ffp), but I def didn’t think comparable, much less better.
You found the Gen III eyebox on 1x noticeably tighter than the Gen II on 1x?
I was speaking directly to field of view in that post, though, the Gen III has a wider FOV on 1x than the Gen II does, that's a simple specification we can look up to verify.
titsonritz
04-25-21, 18:01
All I can say is I am very pleased with my K16i SMI. I don't think I could have done any better at the time for myself but I'll be looking hard at Vortex RAZOR HD GEN III 1-10X24 FFP for my next purchase.
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