View Full Version : Starting a outdoor range, etc
Anyone here done it?
What’s involved?
There are two ranges within 90 minutes of me that have even 200-300 yard lanes. This seems like an opportunity to me, as I am closer to the metro areas (obviously wouldn’t build a range in my suburb) and even 45 min south of me would be barely 30-90 minutes of Chicago and IL/IN suburbs with massive population.
There have been some indoor ranges popping up, and as mentioned further out there are some private clubs with limited property.
Truly interested in experience and advice from an entrepreneurial view. Sure, I’d love to have a cool range, but it would have to pay for itself, I don’t have f-me money.
Liabilities and zoning would likely be your biggest obstacles to overcome.
We've been developing a range for a couple decades now.
I wouldn't think for a second to open it to "public" use- no way in hell.
Principally it's for classes we hold as well as hosting other classes. I'm there for everything. Have a helluva waiver- my lawyer read through it and said "well looks like all you missed is if a UFO crashed on them!" I asked should I add that part LOL.
To have something for the "public" means major pampering- AC, snack bar, amenities and what not. If they are paying it will be expected.
I would have a clear- no one under the age of 16 (or even 18 to be honest). People are going to gripe about that and yeah I have a son that's been actively doing gun training since he was 12 and is very responsible, but again trying to deal with the PUBLIC you want to have stuff like that in place or have a daycare nearby... Even "like minded" people can mess you up with crap like that. A buddy showed up once with his five out of control kids- he never asked... We planted them all in a safe area away from where the square range was but enough within view. They were a major source of problems in just the few hours they were there- wouldn't stay put, wouldn't listen to the adults that graciously stopped training to watch them, etc. Insanity.
What about dogs? Every body and their brother brings their dogs with them everywhere now a days, even the damn store. So what happens when Joe Yuppie shows up with Marmaduke cause you know it's the countryside, so it's all a big park right? (City thinking). Now Marmaduke is running in front of the line on the range... Yes stupid things like this will happen and if you plan to do this you have to look at it realistically and realize these things will happen.
Better to host private classes and if your aim is to make some cash either- get a small fee from the instructor for use of the range or attend the classes and get a $20. range fee per student. It's not much but it will help cover your expenses in maintaining the range.
Having a "home range" you could teach classes at is another way to make some cash from the range provided that's an option. It's never going to be serious money but it could likely pay your property taxes and make a little bit of cash.
Always look to improve the place, the facilities, etc. When I do have free time I'm usually at our range either shooting or working, usually both.
I was a board member, RSO, chief RSO, range manager, and president of a non-profit, open to the public, range for 10 years. I oversaw the building of a 1000yd range on our property. I led the fundraising and volunteered over 400hrs of my own time running heavy equipment (along with a host of other volunteers) to build the range.
What you are asking is extremely complicated. There are so many factors involved. I could build a 1000 yd range in a week in the desert southwest, but it took us two solid months using large heavy equipment to build ours. In fact, if you add up the time it took us to hack out our whole range from the hills and forest, you are looking at 6 months of dirt work and development. This range has a 25, 50, 100, 200 and 1000 yard range with a total capacity of 85 lanes.
Our 1000 yd. range cost $125,000. That was only the rental of the heavy equipment and fuel. We owned the land and we ran the equipment with qualified volunteers that worked as operators in real life. We had several construction company owners on the job and they all said they would have bid the job at $500,000. A general consensus is that we have $750,000 of development on the property in dirt work alone.
For the business side. You have to look at land cost, development cost, and insurance cost. Those are going to be your big ticket items. Then you have to look at your costs of running the facility.. employee wages, insurance and benefits, utilities and maintenance. Total all that up and divide it by your expected amount of customers and what they're willing to pay.
Local land use politics is a huge issue. No reason to spend the money on a facility that will be shut down by suburban sprawl in a decade unless the business model is making HUGE profits; which I doubt a range will. Just getting the range built might be a huge hurdle if local ordinances are not friendly to it. Even in gun friendly Alaska, building a range in the most gun friendly part of the state is now nearly impossible. My borough (same as a county down south) is 1,000 sq miles larger than W. Virginia. Our borough assembly is in the process of passing an ordinance regulating ranges by a conditional use permit. What's funny is that many that are opposed to ranges are gun owners themselves. They lobby against the noise and safety just like anti-gunners. Gun owner does not equal shooter as we all know. I bought a house 3 miles from the range I helped build. I'll be honest that it gets pretty noisy on a nice summer day. I certainly can understand those that oppose a range moving in next to their otherwise quiet country home. Yes, noise can be mitigated, but it is immensely expensive to do so.
Second issue is that in my experience the vast majority of shooters are cheap ass whiners. To offset the cost of the 1000 yd. range, our board charged an extra $5 a day onto the normal $10 a day to shoot. You'd have thought we'd violated the 2nd Amendment by the reaction we got. It is now $20 a day because we realized that at that price point the serious 1000 yd. shooters didn't have to contend with the cheap skates for range time. Finding the right price point and paying the bills is an age old service industry issue.
gunnerblue
04-17-21, 13:22
Ranges around here are running into issues concerning urban sprawl. When they were built they were in rural areas but now are being encroached upon by suburbs whose residents file complaints over noise, perceived safety issues, etc. One range is built on national forest property and used to offer 24/7 access. Ow, night fire is no longer allowed due to complaints from a few houses nearby.
Not sure about your area concerning growing suburbs but it could become an issue.
I don't want to add to the chorus. If you really want to do this as a business venture I think it would be tough but doable. You would probably have to dive into the deep end of the pool though.
Organized range, RSOs, offer it up for use by training outfits as well as federal and local agencies. There are grants available to build ranges, I don't know the details though.
I think the closest 500 yd range to Chicago is up around Racine. If that is even still there. Lotsa people/agencies need training. "The Farm" near where I live does exactly the same thing.
https://www.farmtrainingcenter.com/
My PD had our city owned outdoor range shut down because of urban sprawl and new residents' complaints. It finally opened back up a few years after I was gone but I don't the circumstances that led up to the reopening.
I've attended several of the NRA RANGE Conferences. The Conferences are two days of presentations by experts in range design, construction, marketing, environmental and legal issues. Conference registration is $800, plus travel and hotel. I point that out for a reason.
After the morning break on the first day, about a third of the attendees disappear, never to be seen again. Why?
Because they quickly figure out that building a range The Right Way, is very, very expensive. Cost prohibitive in many parts of the country.
If you really think it's something you want to do, attend the conference. You don't know what you don't know and finding it out "on the fly" is expensive and dream crushing.
I considered building a range as a business and evaluated costs, risks, etc. in 2010. Go to Buffalo Rock and other places within reasonable driving distance to Chicago, then watch the people who are shooting. I went twice to observe prospective clientele and decided I would not build anything within 175 miles of Chicago. This would reduce the number of people who want to bump fire beer cans placed on the ground 5 yards away and 300 yards from the impact area.
Buying scrub ground near a river is No Go. When I was shopping for land for a firearm training facility, people with land anywhere near a river were asking high dollar duck club prices for land.
A big cost after you purchase the land and secure permits will be moving earth. If you know anyone connected to the earth moving business, they can give you a rough idea about how much earth will have to be moved and how long it would take.
If you do decide to move forward with building an outdoor range, you would most likely have to build it in Indiana, not Illinois.
In Illinois you cannot introduce any new noise from a firearm range within 1,000 yards of residences without the expressed permission of the people who own those residences. If you do not have permission from each and every one of the homeowners within 1,000 yards of your new facility, they can easily have you shut down in civil court.
I don't know if you looked into it, but liability insurance is a significant operating cost. Even without any buildings on the property, the cost is incredible. If you have a pond or lake on the property, the cost is even higher.
I am still looking into building a private 500 yard range where entering the range would be by invitation only. A range draws people from miles away, which would require time and effort to keep trespassers off your land, especially if you are within 2 hours driving time of Chicago. A local attorney told me that in his opinion if I built a a private range on private land, it would be considered an "attractive nuisance" and I would have to take steps to protect myself civilly.
Do a business plan ? Those can often squash the idea or dreams sadly but better at that step also if you ever wanted investors any worth their salt are going to want to see one !
Also that plan will answer all your questions IMHO :)
Seeing how busy nice indoor ranges are here in AZ like packed and lines and waiting times ! My head was doing the math they are making freaking bank (the good ones)
In AZ where we have insane amount of land to shoot from for free and the outdoor ranges are never that full the nice indoor slammed all the time it seems ?
I think for a business I would only want to start a nice club style indoor range
I would wonder what todays issues are with the bullets and containment knowing the environmental folks who might target you after opening to get you shut down no idea but I can see that happening today
I considered building a range as a business and evaluated costs, risks, etc. in 2010. Go to Buffalo Rock and other places within reasonable driving distance to Chicago, then watch the people who are shooting. I went twice to observe prospective clientele and decided I would not build anything within 175 miles of Chicago. This would reduce the number of people who want to bump fire beer cans placed on the ground 5 yards away and 300 yards from the impact area.
Buying scrub ground near a river is No Go. When I was shopping for land for a firearm training facility, people with land anywhere near a river were asking high dollar duck club prices for land.
A big cost after you purchase the land and secure permits will be moving earth. If you know anyone connected to the earth moving business, they can give you a rough idea about how much earth will have to be moved and how long it would take.
If you do decide to move forward with building an outdoor range, you would most likely have to build it in Indiana, not Illinois.
In Illinois you cannot introduce any new noise from a firearm range within 1,000 yards of residences without the expressed permission of the people who own those residences. If you do not have permission from each and every one of the homeowners within 1,000 yards of your new facility, they can easily have you shut down in civil court.
I don't know if you looked into it, but liability insurance is a significant operating cost. Even without any buildings on the property, the cost is incredible. If you have a pond or lake on the property, the cost is even higher.
I am still looking into building a private 500 yard range where entering the range would be by invitation only. A range draws people from miles away, which would require time and effort to keep trespassers off your land, especially if you are within 2 hours driving time of Chicago. A local attorney told me that in his opinion if I built a a private range on private land, it would be considered an "attractive nuisance" and I would have to take steps to protect myself civilly.
A range close to us was under pressure from new neighbors who complained about the noise and safety issues. They hired the NRA to tell them how to modify the range and keep it open. The dirt work alone would have cost them over $200K and that was 20 years ago! They only had a 100 foot firing line and a 100 yard berm.
This thread reminds me of the old joke... How do you make a million dollars as a NASCAR team owner??? You spend 10 million dollars.
A range close to us was under pressure from new neighbors who complained about the noise and safety issues. They hired the NRA to tell them how to modify the range and keep it open. The dirt work alone would have cost them over $200K and that was 20 years ago! They only had a 100 foot firing line and a 100 yard berm.
Anyone who says "cheaper than dirt".....has never paid to MOVE DIRT! Our Club has been really fortunate in that we had a major road construction contractor as a member for several years. During his "slack times" he would do projects for us at cost- we paid for his diesel and his guys wages and that was it. We moved MOUNTAINS of dirt that way. No way in hell we could have afforded to do that any other way.
Understand this- the NRA specification impact berm is TWENTY FEET TALL with a 2/1 slope- meaning that berm is FORTY FEET THICK at the base. It has to have at least the front 24" with no hard material (rocks) larger than 1". Meaning- nearly pure dirt. Now, multiply 40' x 20' x however long you want your firing line. Then add in 8' side protection berms. Oh, and did you add in the 300 yard "cone of safety" beyond your berm? Because if shots do skip up over the berm, you need that distance to contain every round on your land.....So...How much land were you going to buy and how big is your dirt moving budget? Oh, You have to BUY the dirt?...Well, aren't you the lucky one!
Lots of people "dream" of owning a range etc....Doing it the right way, makes it nearly impossible to afford unless you have a steady stream of well healed patrons and can pour huge financial resources into a project and wait years for a return. IF, you can find the right piece of land with a berm essentially in place- an old quarry, some place with a flat faced, tall hill etc....you can make something happen, but as soon as you start talking about moving a bunch of dirt, forget it.
Esq. nailed it. Moving dirt is a huge cost to recoup, not to mention liability insurance, retaining an attorney, maintenance, etc.
One range close to me pays over $19,000 per year in insurance premiums and several hundred dollars in annual attorney's fees if nothing goes wrong. If an issue comes up, the attorney's fees go up. If the range is up and running, you are going to need to take in $20,000 annually just to break even, discounting maintenance costs.
Great info, and much appreciated everyone.
One thing to consider is that waivers aren't worth the paper they're written on. If someone gets hurt, and it's determined to be due to some negligence on your part, a waiver won't make any difference.
The only way to protect yourself is to have it in an LLC and carry good insurance.
One thing to consider is that waivers aren't worth the paper they're written on. If someone gets hurt, and it's determined to be due to some negligence on your part, a waiver won't make any difference.
The only way to protect yourself is to have it in an LLC and carry good insurance.
I agree that a LLC and insurance are a must for a business. I believe a good waiver drafted by a competent attorney will protect you to some degree if you are not negligent.
I agree that a LLC and insurance are a must for a business. I believe a good waiver drafted by a competent attorney will protect you to some degree if you are not negligent.
It could, but it also has a high potential to be the source of something that could be used against you. I've been told the less specific the better, but it can't be too open ended at the same time, because blanket waivers aren't binding. I hate to say it, but I think the best you could hope for in a waiver is that it doesn't get you in trouble.
The bottom line is if someone got hurt, it would almost undoubtedly be as a result of some negligence on your part, no matter how absurd. Our system doesn't accept that bad things happen sometimes, and that sometimes that is the result of someone's own stupidity. It always has to be someone's fault. The system just presupposes that everyone is a toddler with no personal responsibility.
The strategy I would use is to shift liability to another organization that is an authority. I would make everyone get NRA certified in gun safety, build the range to NRA spec, adopt NRA range safety procedures, etc. By adhering to the best possible industry standards it reduces the chances of someone being able to accuse you of negligence.
One place a sort of waiver might help is to make everyone acknowledge that they have had the rules explained to them, and that they agree to follow them.
If you read materials published by the NRA, the onus is on you. I suspect it would be nearly impossible to get the NRA to share any responsibility or liability. As far as waivers are concerned, I deal with an attorney who has 33 years experience in this area and follow their advice.
If you read materials published by the NRA, the onus is on you. I suspect it would be nearly impossible to get the NRA to share any responsibility or liability. As far as waivers are concerned, I deal with an attorney who has 33 years experience in this area and follow their advice.
That's not what I mean. If you follow the standards of the most competent authority on the subject to the letter, it's hard for someone to say you were negligent. The NRA is the ultimate authority when it comes to gun safety.
I bought a house 3 miles from the range I helped build. I'll be honest that it gets pretty noisy on a nice summer day. I certainly can understand those that oppose a range moving in next to their otherwise quiet country home. Yes, noise can be mitigated, but it is immensely expensive to do so.
I get that. However, someone choosing to move next to a range that already exists and then whining I have a BIG problem with. Sounds childish but the "I was here first" axiom definitely applies and should continue to do so legally.
I get that. However, someone choosing to move next to a range that already exists and then whining I have a BIG problem with. Sounds childish but the "I was here first" axiom definitely applies and should continue to do so legally.
I agree with that. Moving next to a known range is like knowingly moving into a house with railroad tracks or highways nearby. You know what you're getting into, and you pay accordingly.
Would be a moot point if the government would just let us have silencers that didn't take months to years to an indefinite time to get. I don't even mind paying the tax at this point, but it pisses me off to no end that I can't buy a factory suppressor without playing the wait time lottery and hoping I'm not the poor schmuck who has to wait two years. Even if you're the lucky one who gets it in six months, that's still bullshit.
I get that. However, someone choosing to move next to a range that already exists and then whining I have a BIG problem with. Sounds childish but the "I was here first" axiom definitely applies and should continue to do so legally.
I agree. Someone who builds a new home next to an existing range should not complain about the noise or the existence of lead. If projectiles leave your property and enter the property of the new homeowner, they do have a valid complaint.
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