View Full Version : Custom Glock 21: Advice on reductions and slide work
OK, so I want to get a custom Glock 21 and need some advise from those who have reductions or have refinished slides.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m182/shark31/jyogi21.jpg
I'm trying to do a basic copy of this. I would like to know, for those of you that have refinished your slides, whether or not you had to contend with rust after refinishing. The one feature that I love above all else, that I DO NOT wish to destroy, is the weapon's ease of maintenance or non maintanence if you will. I have a XD40 compact that I have to chase rust on every time I touch it, and have never seen a spec of rust on any of my glocks. The only reason that I am looking at refinishing is that I would like to have front cocking serrations applied. If I can't get a finish that's up to snuff reapplied, then I will delete the slide work all together. Thanks for looking (and hopefully helping).
Also, any advise on reduction work would be appreciated. I need someone who will work with an OD frame, and I've looked into Arizona Response Systems, Bowie Tactical Concepts, Wendell Tactical Concepts, and Robar, am I leaving someone out that I should look at?:D
Slide serrations are pointless, but the grip reduction is nice.
The slide can't be re-Tennifered.
David Thomas
11-14-06, 16:34
I am not a big fan of the akward G21 in its original configuration, but that gun looks interesting.
Looks like you have the list of folks who can do the job on the grip reduction. I would not bother with the front cocking serrations.
Slide serrations are pointless, but the grip reduction is nice.
The slide can't be re-Tennifered.
Is there any way to replicate the tennifer? I noticed on Robar's website that they offer different types of metal treatments, and I was just wanting to hear from those who have done it.
I would ask the various custom Glock builders as to which coating would be the best but I already know that answer- "Ours is the best". Basically I wanted to hear from people that have put a different coating on their glocks that performed like the tennifer as advertised.
Another question is whether or not coating over the Tennifer is possible, Does anyone know? I realize that I am only asking about cosmetics right now instead of function, but I do like the looks of that pistol a lot. I hate all black guns.
David Thomas
11-14-06, 18:49
Shark31,
The way I understand it, Tennifer is a metal treatment, not the black finish you see. You can "paint" glocks any color you want. As to which finish is best: I have no idea, but the new ceramic finishes (cera-kote?) seem promising. All finishes will wear eventually.
As far as I know, there isn't a "coating or finish" that will perform like the tennifer.
Shark31,
As far as I know, there isn't a "coating or finish" that will perform like the tennifer.
And there never will be in this country.
I love the work that Wendell Tactical Concepts (http://wendellcustomknives.blademakers.com) does. Why don't you just have him do your G21? IMO he's the best and he already told me he'll do an OD framed GLOCK.
And there never will be in this country.
I thought Melonite, is another trade name for Tennifer, and it is done in this country.
Wayne Dobbs
11-15-06, 08:59
Melonite is not Tenifer, although it is much better than bluing. Tenifer can not be accomplished in the US due to EPA regs.
My 3 year old G32 looks like an oil slick. What's up with that? Is the tennifer all that remains? A buddy's G27 that is 4 years or more old, is still black with wear marks.
Dave Berryhill
11-15-06, 12:22
The latest slides do look different but I'm not sure what changes Glock has made. IIRC, Glock used to phosphate or blue the slides after the Tennifer treatment, which gave them their matte black finish. The latest ones I've seen seem to be shiny although they have a textured rather than a polished finish.
They are still treated with Tennifer but it appears that the post-Tennifer finish has changed. I haven't been to Glock armorer's school in years - maybe someone who has attended recently knows.
Wayne Dobbs
11-16-06, 08:21
Dave,
I went back for about the upteenth time in May and that topic didn't come up. They still do the Tenifer and as you know it's part of the slide's heat treat process and not really a finish. I don't know what kind of chemicals or processes they use to accomplish the Tenifer, but it must be nasty from a hazmat standpoint.
SuicideHZ,
If all the black is gone from your slide AND if you haven't done any cutting, milling, etc. on it, the Tenifer and its anti-corrosion properties are still there.
Robb Jensen
11-17-06, 04:46
The latest slides do look different but I'm not sure what changes Glock has made. IIRC, Glock used to phosphate or blue the slides after the Tennifer treatment, which gave them their matte black finish. The latest ones I've seen seem to be shiny although they have a textured rather than a polished finish.
They are still treated with Tennifer but it appears that the post-Tennifer finish has changed. I haven't been to Glock armorer's school in years - maybe someone who has attended recently knows.
At my last Glock armorers course the instructor said that Glocks official word is that the finishes are the same. But anyone can tell the black finishes are completely different. I think the new is is a shake and bake type it's wears much faster than the older finish. It's probably easier and cheaper to apply than a phosphate finish. Glock will still refinish slides for about $50 and barrels for about $20
I've had two slides refinished by other companies. One by Tripp Research in hardchrome and one by Robar in NP3. The NP3 was awesome you could wipe the carbon off with a paper towel, the hardchrome needed a little solvent to get it really clean.
John Fettes
01-12-07, 19:53
... Tennifer is a metal treatment, not the black finish you see. You can "paint" glocks any color you want. .... All finishes will wear eventually.
This is my understanding too.
FWIW, the final finish appearance has clearly changed on the slides from my first one in 1988 and my latest ones in 2003. I was told that you cannot give a slide with the old finish the new look.
I found the thread searching for grip reduction. I'd like a 1911 style grip angle and the cutout where the trigger guard meets the front strap moved forward a little.
Lawdawg8654
01-13-07, 01:03
Not trying to get too off topic here. Does anyone know what filler materiel is used to do a home grip reduction. You know the stuff you fill in the empty grip space with before you grind away on it. Is it some sort of two part epoxy? Also what grinding attachment works well with the Glock plastic?
As far as cutting or removing material, I like the dremel bits that are either 1/8" or 5/16" diameter at the head about 3/8" long. They are machined to have sprialling flutes in them with sharp edges.
I use the larger to cut up into the triggerguard to make more room for the middle finger.
The larger sanding drums that fit over the rubber plugs are good for smoothing the area afterwards. Not quite the diameter of your finger but at that size, it's easy to get a nice rounded area removed and resanded without having to worry about contouring with a tiny narrow bit.
I think I've seen two part epoxies that when mixed are black...
John Fettes
01-13-07, 10:48
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=381
And there never will be in this country.
Why is that?
I assume it has to do with some of our EPA retrictions?
Why is that?
I assume it has to do with some of our EPA retrictions?
I believe so. The bath involved in the tennifer process uses cyanide as a component and it's my understanding that's a deal-breaker for the EPA folks?
Thanks for the link, John. That's good stuff.
John_Wayne777
01-14-07, 12:45
Personally I am not a huge fan of the Glock platform because the stock config causes me some fierce slide bite.
At a handgun class at Blackwater a while ago I happened to run into an Anchorage PD officer I had trained with before. His department issues the Glock 21 but he had the same problem that I did...Slide bite.
He sent his G21 off to Robar to have their grip reduction done, and seemed to like the results a lot. He even let me borrow his Robar-ized G21 to use for some drills while I let him borrow my 1911, and I have to say it was a big improvement for me. I really liked the feel of the new grip shape (especially on a wide-gripped handgun like the G21) and the beavertail added by Robar cured the slide bite problem.
Because it was a duty weapon he didn't have them do any trigger work, but just the grip reduction made the staple-gun trigger of the Glock better, in my opinion. While it wasn't quite as easy to shoot well as my 1911, it was still darn good and if I had to carry a Glock I would certainly have the grip worked on.
Edit -- As a side note, if you compare the overall grip profile of a S&W M&P to the overall grip profile of a Robar-ized Glock, you might see some similarities. That's why I have an M&P on the way right now...=)
For a long time Robar was the only company doing these reductions, but lately there are all sorts of folks doing them that might be able to do it well. I can say for sure that Robar's reductions are very nicely done, but I don't have any personal experience with anyone else's work.
The standard Glock tenifer finish seems to be a very good finish overall. I wouldn't muck with it unless you absolutely have to.
I love my 21 just as it is. It works great for me. I would however love to get the slide refinished in a color in that pic.
I love my 21 just as it is. It works great for me. I would however love to get the slide refinished in a color in that pic.
You know what I was thinking?
That a G21SF sure would look good in that color, wouldn't it? :D
Yeah, that would match the 21Sf frame pretty good.
You know, I've been thinking about this thread a lot over the past couple of days since the G21SF was unveiled at SHOT.
For starters I would really like a 45ACP GLOCK but I don't need an ambi mag release. I do like the idea of a shorter grip but I don't care about the rail that much...it would be nice if it matched the rails on all my other GLOCKs.
So, do I go for the G21SF where I have to buy G21SF mags or do I go for a regular G21 where I can buy any G21 mags and send it away to have the grip reduction done like the one in the initial post?
You know, I've been thinking about this thread a lot over the past couple of days since the G21SF was unveiled at SHOT.
For starters I would really like a 45ACP GLOCK but I don't need an ambi mag release. I do like the idea of a shorter grip but I don't care about the rail that much...it would be nice if it matched the rails on all my other GLOCKs.
So, do I go for the G21SF where I have to buy G21SF mags or do I go for a regular G21 where I can buy any G21 mags and send it away to have the grip reduction done like the one in the initial post?
Get it from the factory and be done with it. I believe the new mags work in either gun so if you ever sell them, they are more marketeable.
What's the rail, picatinny?--get the 200B for it---
Get it from the factory and be done with it. I beleive the new mags work in either gun so if you ever sell them, they are more marketeable.
What's the rail, picatinny?--get the 200B for it---
It's my understanding that the G21SF mags will work in the standard G21 but not the other way around; the standard G21 mags will not work in the G21SF.
Does anyone know for sure?
It's my understanding that the G21SF mags will work in the standard G21 but not the other way around; the standard G21 mags will not work in the G21SF.
Does anyone know for sure?
That's my understanding as well. The old mags don't have a notch on both sides to catch the new release properly?
Any idea who did the frame on the one in the pic?
The glock rep I talked to at SHOT said that the rail would be offered as 1913 or regular glock style. Most of the reduction was on the top of the grip for less trigger reach. They still had a huge hump on the back.
I don't like finger grooves or the crossbolt safety. I ordered my regular G21 today to be sent off. I didn't think that the new 21 was all that it's cracked up to be, but the trigger did seem somewhat closer.
Any idea who did the frame on the one in the pic?
Brown one in the original post? It's under the examples section @ Wendell Tactical Concepts. (http://www.wendelltacticalconcepts.com)
I've got the railed model 21 and the unrailed 20 (with a 6" Jarvis stickin out of it)
Never liked them danged finger ridges so I sanded them off...took out the wood burning set and ground down one of the tips a little rounder and flatter...made some
shallow grooves...
I kept it pretty simple and not very agressive...
I also gave my middle finger a little more room under the trigger guard...
It works just fine for me now...
I've done a 19, a 23 and a 26 planning on doing a 17 one of these days...
Sooner or later you get better at it...:)
I am not worried about the intrinsic value or resale or whatever...
As I will leave them to the kids after me and the Mrs pass....so what are they gonna
do...complain about free guns with no finger grooves?.....and to who? :)
I ve been using soldering iron to retexture glock receivers, AR grips, 1911 grip panels etc for years. Even the A2 AR pistol grip can be retextured as aggressive as you want. I too will grind off the finger groove humps on Glock FGR receivers, I hate them, the thumb rest pads too!
I've had grip reductions done by Mark Graham of Arizona Response Systems (a G20) and someone else (a G17). Mark used to work at Robar and I think he was the guy who started doing the grip reductions there. He'll do a good job.
If I were having one done today, I'd go with Jim Shanahan http://www.advancedperformanceshooting.com, but he's out of the country for a while. So I guess that doesn't help, but if anyone else reading this wants a Glock grip reduce next year, they should consider him. If you're a 1911 shooter, he will even build a little "shelf" to rest your thumb where the thumb safety should be. :D
I did a few by myself this weekend. My OCD was not wanting me to wait 2-3months to get someone else to do it. I love the way the grip feels on the OD 21s and the 19 feels like a dream.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m182/shark31/guns006.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m182/shark31/guns002.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m182/shark31/guns007.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m182/shark31/guns001.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m182/shark31/guns003-1.jpg
If I were having one done today, I'd go with Jim Shanahan
Anybody got detailed pics of his work? Thanks!
Anybody got detailed pics of his work? Thanks!
Here is a link to his site: Advanced Performance Shooting (http://www.advancedperformanceshooting.com).
Here is the link for the grip work: Glock Enhancements (http://www.advancedperformanceshooting.com/wst_page18.html). There is a really good photo that shows what it looks like after he is done.
You can also poke around on his site to see his work on STI/S-V frames. It probably won't interest anyone here, but he does cool paint jobs too.
As a reminder, he's out of the country for about a year, so keep that in mind.
Thanks! Thats the best looking/most functional Glock work I have seen- especially the undercuts. But doesn't work like this weaken the frame? I would hate to drop the gun and have a frame breakage.
Thanks! Thats the best looking/most functional Glock work I have seen- especially the undercuts. But doesn't work like this weaken the frame? I would hate to drop the gun and have a frame breakage.
Well, any time you remove material you're going to weaken the frame, but the question is by how much? I don't think anything Jim does will weaken so you can't use the gun as hard you can.
In any event, it's all custom work, so you could discuss your concerns with him and he could just remove an amount that is within the your comfort zone.
I haven't shot the Glocks he's worked because I was handling them in the vendor area during a big match. The full package does feel really good, though, and the little ledge he can build for 1911 shooters to rest their thumb is a good idea.
If you can wait until he returns to the USA you'll be very happy with the results.
Tennifer is in the metal pores & EPA regs prevent tennifer process in CONUS. A finish can be applied over with any of the modern shake/bake coatings - preparation is the key here. Grip reduction materials are often closely guarded secrets by those that apply them, but none are rocket science. Acraglas, Marine-Tex and a long since forgotten mysterious 2-part epoxy have all been successfully used here. Acraglas Gel is easy to use and nice to work with. Stippling can hide the transition area and blend the original to the new work.
A trick that was closely guarded for a long time in the industry was the use of spray or roller applied truck bedliner material over the re-worked area and/or over the entire grip to cover the work. Texturing has been done by a multitude of methods by dabbing the material while still tacky: terry cloth towel, sponges, etc. have all been used to get that 'special' look/feel. I prefer to do a minimum amount of work to the Glock lower receiver for grip reduction of the backstrap, use Acraglas Gel in the hollowed-out area. Reshape accordingly, then cover only that area with just enough bedliner material to blend it together.
Let it dry thoroughly, then judiciously apply the tip of a hot soldering iron to stipple the receiver and the bedliner material. Be cautious, patient, deliberate and careful. When all is stippled to your preference, mask off the rest of the lower and spray it with Krylon ultra-flat black. You can make the texturing as aggressive or subtle as you choose. For IWB, deep concealment in summer clothing against bare skin, I prefer minimal texturing. For strictly range work or competition, many prefer something aggressive
I experimented with this and did it for a long time before I ever saw the Brownell's instructions. I'll give them credit, their directions are very complete and will produce good results if you do your part. Caution and patience are my best recommendation. Good luck.
BTW, I can vouch for Bowie Tactical - David does excellent work. No, I'm not him nor am I affiliated in anyway.
Bowie Tactical
04-05-07, 14:44
Hey guys just to clarify, first of all for full disclosure, I am the owner and operator of Bowie Tactical Concepts.
To clarify my grip reductions, I take the grip angle to a very close match to a 1911 with flat mainspring housing. Also mine are the only ones in the industry with a full grip reduction and full matching stippling. Some others that show full matched stippling do not do a full reduction. They fill in the back strap but, only remove enough glock polymer as to have some left to stipple, or paint or epoxy is used as a cover.
I remove on the G-21 over .60 from the biggest part of the grip. I take out a huge portion of the back strap all together and replace it with my own "stuff" then I fully texture the grip.
Plus when my grips work is done there is no paint or thin layers of epoxy covering my grip on the black or OD frames.
They will not chip, flake or get slick.
I hope this helps with separating different techniques soyou get what you need.
CHECK 360 David Bowie
David,
I grind it flat, and if I didn't bend in the backstrap, the acraglass would show big time. Bending the backstrap before I filled it and using the original material to stipple was the only way that I could get the backstrap from flaking off.
You said that you use your own "stuff" and then stipple, I assume that it is not epoxy. Without getting into anything proprietary, I wanted to know if you actually stipple the "stuff" or if the stippling is actually done to the frame material.
It seems that no matter what I use, any material that is added will eventually start to flake and split from the original material when I start to throw the gun downrange.
Robb Jensen
04-05-07, 15:41
David,
Welcome, I'm glad to have you here on M4carbine.net
I love the work that Wendell Tactical Concepts (http://wendellcustomknives.blademakers.com) does. Why don't you just have him do your G21? IMO he's the best and he already told me he'll do an OD framed GLOCK.
M4arc, do you know if the Glock grip reduction with full 360degree stippling includes removing the finger grooves? I'm assuming it does
Also, does getting the magazine well cutouts add any functionality or is it just for cosmetics?
I'm wondering if it is worth it to get the ejector port radiused and get the feed ramp and trigger parts polished with the Glock already as reliable as it is.
There is a picture on their site that shows a G19 with a grip reductions and stippling that still has the grooves
Here's one that I just finished up. I'm not a big fan of this type of stippling, but you can see the new reduction.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/prodigy017.jpg
It has a flat backstrap.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/prodigy019.jpg
The stippling matches, and I'm able to keep the lanyard hole.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/prodigy020.jpg
Look Ma! No epoxy.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/shark3-1/prodigy018.jpg
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