View Full Version : ATF proposed rule change. Time to comment. UPDATE in OP.
Mauser KAR98K
05-08-21, 09:30
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/definition-frame-or-receiver/summary
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/definition-frame-or-receiver/submit-comment
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KIqG-c03QTE
They dropped this yesterday. Time to submit comments and phone your congress critters to let them know the ATF is wanting to make felons out of us, and make up new laws that is congress' job.
From what I gather, even upper revievers and slides will need to be serialized and must go through a 4473. With this rule change, they could in the future start making individual parts be done the same way.
5-21-2021 update: the comment period is open. Watch video and comment from the description.
https://youtu.be/-WpCoqPoi28
I was just about to post this. Can’t believe it took this long to pop up on here.
MrGunsNGear has a good breakdown as always.
Am I reading the proposal correctly that all PMFs have to be serialized? Yet only licensed manufacturers can serialize firearms? So I’d have to be a Type 07 FFL or Class 02 SOT to make my own firearm?
LOL. This rule making proposal is racist… it financially seeks to restrict who can make their own firearms and this will mostly impact minorities.
Unlike the comment period for the proposed M855 ban, or their prior “reconnaissance by fire” with the pistol braces, ATF is now acting on a specific order from their masters to achieve an objective. I think this comment period is going to be merely a formality.
This is just malicious. I can....kinda.....see their point on 80% lowers but will also vociferously argue that anybody willing to take the time to mill their own lower to do wrong will not be deterred even if they were illegal or controlled.
Going after uppers and parts goes against the end users Right to Repair. Let’s say I have a kaboom and my upper dies. Why then should I go through an FFL to fix my own property?
This is a gross overstep and doesn’t stand up on Constitutionality.
This is a gross overstep and doesn’t stand up on Constitutionality.
https://i.imgflip.com/151rwi.jpg
Unlike the comment period for the proposed M855 ban, or their prior “reconnaissance by fire” with the pistol braces, ATF is now acting on a specific order from their masters to achieve an objective. I think this comment period is going to be merely a formality.
This^^^
Those suffering under the delusion that we are still a Representative Republic need to wake up and smell the coffee, commies are in charge and need us unarmed.
https://i.imgflip.com/151rwi.jpg
Send Atheists and Bachelors is all I can say.
I’m not getting the vax, not turning in or registering anything, I just want to be left alone.
Quote the Buddha, “Don’t start nothing, won’t be nothing”
https://i.imgflip.com/151rwi.jpg
Yep. Exactly what I was thinking. Congress critters are not working for us anymore.
Infinite record retention is de facto registration.
Gabriel556
05-08-21, 12:43
I just read and tried to comment and the document number appears to be buried in the ecomments page because I could not find it to submit a comment digitally.
Coal Dragger
05-08-21, 12:49
I’m sure that is intentional on BATF’s part.
ViniVidivici
05-08-21, 13:17
My comments to this are all loaded up in 30 round mags.
But at least that orange rude guy who tweeted too much is gone, right? Right???
Elections have consequences and we’re seeing that full frontal right now. The ATF needs to disbanded and Congress needs to exert the fact that only they can make law.
Oh and is the worthless NRA fundraising off this yet??
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But at least that orange rude guy who tweeted too much is gone, right? Right???
Elections have consequences and we’re seeing that full frontal right now. The ATF needs to disbanded and Congress needs to exert the fact that only they can make law.
Oh and is the worthless NRA fundraising off this yet??
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I hate to say it but we could actually use the NRA now to injunction spam them and run interference.
I hate to say it but we could actually use the NRA now to injunction spam them and run interference.
Well someone get Wayne to roll out of his fancy hotel bed, wipe the coke off his nose and chuck that Czech hooker he killed just to watch the lights go out in her eyes into a dumpster, and get his ass to work.
ChattanoogaPhil
05-08-21, 15:35
But at least that orange rude guy who tweeted too much is gone, right? Right???
Elections have consequences and we’re seeing that full frontal right now. The ATF needs to disbanded and Congress needs to exert the fact that only they can make law.
Oh and is the worthless NRA fundraising off this yet??
Did Congress pass legislation with specific language addressing so-called 80% receivers, or it is an ATF dreamed up interpretation from years past?
Am I reading the proposal correctly that all PMFs have to be serialized? Yet only licensed manufacturers can serialize firearms? So I’d have to be a Type 07 FFL or Class 02 SOT to make my own firearm?
LOL. This rule making proposal is racist… it financially seeks to restrict who can make their own firearms and this will mostly impact minorities.
My 1st pass reading was only if an FFL acquires it. Private individuals do not need to put SNs are firearms, that admit that in the doc.
Did Congress pass legislation with specific language addressing so-called 80% receivers, or it is an ATF dreamed up interpretation from years past?
No.
Nor did Congress give anyone the power to determine when 5 lbs of mined Bauxite becomes a firearm.
Did Congress pass legislation with specific language addressing so-called 80% receivers, or it is an ATF dreamed up interpretation from years past?
LOL. Legislation. "ATF has determined..." or didn't you know about how the sporter clause and determination letters work.
I am trying to figure out how it will apply to ARs. p.32, has the following paragraph:
The nonexclusive list identifies the frame or receiver for the following firearms: (i) Colt 1911-type, Beretta/Browning/FN Herstal/Heckler & Koch/Ruger/Sig Sauer/Smith & Wesson/Taurus hammer fired semiautomatic pistols; (ii) Glock-type striker fired semiautomatic pistols; (iii) Sig Sauer P320-type semiautomatic pistols; (iv) certain locking block rail system semiautomatic pistols; (v) AR-15-type and Beretta AR-70-type firearms; (vi) Steyr AUG-type firearms; (vii) Thompson M1A1-type machineguns and semiautomatic variants, and L1A1, FN...
which then leads to p.86 and shows the typical lower classified as the receiver. However, I have difficulty parsing anything about uppers.
Well the president said we the people means the gov people in charge not you people ! So that says it all !
Serfdom and not the kind of surf on waves !
ViniVidivici
05-09-21, 10:31
HA! And we don't even have a president anymore, right now we have an illegally installed oligarch!
So "Constitution limits" this and "checks and balances" that is ALL out the window.
Combat_Diver
05-09-21, 12:22
Why I'm reading this is that nearly all semi auto pistols slides and AR uppers are going to have a SN besides the lower.
CD
ViperTwoSix
05-09-21, 12:28
I am trying to figure out how it will apply to ARs. p.32, has the following paragraph:
which then leads to p.86 and shows the typical lower classified as the receiver. However, I have difficulty parsing anything about uppers.
Since it states the below, I read this to mean that since the ATF has already determined that the lower receiver of an AR type rifle is the regulated “receiver” requiring a serial number, that this new rule would only apply to “new designs” like a future AR type where somehow the configuration of hammer/trigger/BCG is different.
“Application of the rule, as proposed, would not alter these prior ATF classifications. To provide more clarity, this supplement to the definition would include a nonexclusive list of common weapons with a split/multi-piece frame or receiver configuration for which ATF has previously determined a specific part to be the frame or receiver. If a manufacturer produces or an importer imports a firearm falling within one of these designs as they exist as of the date of publication of a final rule, it can refer to this list to know which part is the frame or receiver. The manufacturer or importer can then mark without needing to ask ATF for a classification.”
Ned Christiansen
05-09-21, 12:30
I scrolled through the proposed rules and all that-- after, you know, clicking on "click here to leave a comment". Either they have not yet put it up or they have it buried deeper than I can dig. That's pretty concerning.
I scrolled through the proposed rules and all that-- after, you know, clicking on "click here to leave a comment". Either they have not yet put it up or they have it buried deeper than I can dig. That's pretty concerning.
Same for me. Has anyone here actually been able to leave a comment?
The proposed rule has not been officially published yet.
Are they expecting currently owned AR upper receivers to be serialized?
Are they expecting currently owned AR upper receivers to be serialized?
God that would be an epic goat ****. Imagine all the hoarders and ‘collectors’ who are meant to go out and have the upper of their precious nib colt 6920 serialized.
The number of uppers that would need to be serialiezed is in the 10s of millions if not hundreds. All that said I don’t put it past them to intend exactly that.
A lot of this issue is the AR should have had the upper be the registered part in the first place. When the ATF decided the lower is the reciever is when they screwed up. Almost no other guns are like this.
A lot of this issue is the AR should have had the upper be the registered part in the first place. When the ATF decided the lower is the reciever is when they screwed up. Almost no other guns are like this.
Most automatic pistols
When the ATF decided the lower is the reciever is when they screwed up. Almost no other guns are like this.
Keep in mind it was decided in late 50's, well before ATF existed, before SNs were even required for Title I.
Most automatic pistols
I was thinking of rifles, but you raise a great point here.
Keep in mind it was decided in late 50's, well before ATF existed, before SNs were even required for Title I.
That I didn’t know. You learn something new everyday.
That I didn’t know. You learn something new everyday.
Well maybe the early 60s, as not sure Armalite made a Title I AR. But Colt did, still before GCA68/ATF.
A lot of this issue is the AR should have had the upper be the registered part in the first place. When the ATF decided the lower is the reciever is when they screwed up. Almost no other guns are like this.
Not really, in trying to define what a "firearm" is, they basically decided the part that accepts ammunition or a magazine is the receiver. This is why it's upper receivers for FALs and lower receivers for ARs. It's not always the part the barrel attaches to because of break open shotguns and things like that.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-11-21, 01:42
God that would be an epic goat ****. Imagine all the hoarders and ‘collectors’ who are meant to go out and have the upper of their precious nib colt 6920 serialized.
The number of uppers that would need to be serialiezed is in the 10s of millions if not hundreds. All that said I don’t put it past them to intend exactly that.
A lot of this issue is the AR should have had the upper be the registered part in the first place. When the ATF decided the lower is the reciever is when they screwed up. Almost no other guns are like this.
Plus, making the upper the registered part would have probably made the ARs less dominant. Lowers are cheaper than finished uppers, uppers are more variable than lowers. We are lucky that they did it the way that they did. Plus, it has the trigger, hard to do anything with out a trigger and the magazine.
Plus, making the upper the registered part would have probably made the ARs less dominant. Lowers are cheaper than finished uppers, uppers are more variable than lowers. We are lucky that they did it the way that they did. Plus, it has the trigger, hard to do anything with out a trigger and the magazine.
It's even dumber with NFA stuff.
A lightning link is considered not only a firearm but a machine gun. Please demonstrate how you can shoot anyone with just a lighting link.
Suppressors are considered "firearms", please shoot me with just a suppressor.
I can understand the desire to identify the critical component of a firearm and mark it with a serial number. But a receiver in an of itself should never qualify as a firearm because it can't function as a firearm. Only a fully assembled firearm is a firearm and parts are parts even if you wish to identify which part is the critical component part.
For more than a century we've demonstrated that you can't control bad people by regulating firearms. They registered all the Bonnie and Clyde guns and the Manson family still just walked into your home and stabbed people to death. If you can't learn from that object lesson, then you cannot learn.
Yes it's a good idea to keep guns out of the wrong hands, but I have to ask...if those people are so damn dangerous to society that as soon as they get their hands on a gun they will go on a killing spree...should they really be walking around free in the first place. They sound pretty dangerous and unstable and I wouldn't want them to have a gallon of gasoline and a lighter.
ATF really is the equivalent of 1920s beach resort officers deciding which bathing suits meet their standards and which bathing suits require a person to cover up and receive a citation. They need to be an agency of regulation that makes sure guns are regulated like alcohol and tobacco and collect related taxes and maintain records (something they barely do right now and they think they can maintain a nation wide database), these are the same people that can't even keep NFA records accurate and up to date.
Gun runners, drug cartels and manufacturers of illegal machine guns...that sounds like a job for the FBI, the DEA and similar agencies, perhaps a joint task force from time to time.
So wait... are we able to comment yet or not because I am unable to find it either.
Any progress noted on our chance to comment?
ViperTwoSix
05-15-21, 06:17
Nothing available as far as comments yet, but the Senate Judiciary Committee had a hearing about this on May 11th.
https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/meetings/stop-gun-violence-ghost-guns
The witness testimony was interesting, but the question and answer session was the usual political dog and pony show. Senators on both sides of the coin structure their questions so that the answers support their views.
I hate to say it but we could actually use the NRA now to injunction spam them and run interference.
I’ve been saying for years, like the NRA or not, the NRA-ILA is more effective than ten GOAs. Of course they only care when Ds are in power.
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I’ve been saying for years, like the NRA or not, the NRA-ILA is more effective than ten GOAs. Of course they only care when Ds are in power.
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And that is why the ILA, and not the NRA, have been the only people to see money from me beyond my membership fees.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-16-21, 22:16
So,I read the summary, and then the extended summary; I still don’t know what is going on.
before we get into the details of what is marked on marked, what happens when you have split receivers and they are both serialized, but interchangeable with other ones. Do you have to fill out paperwork for two firearms every time you transfer that? Because you could always just transfer 1/2 or the other?
It sure seems that if you brought out an AR design now, you would have to serialize the upper and lower. But the summary implies that the A.R. 15 lower being serialized only would stay? How far from the AR 15 design would you have to get before they make you start registering the upper and lower.?
It doesn’t seem as if the standard A.R. parts kit sounds lower would have to be serialized, based on the question above.
So it seems like they want to make it so that no gun can be produced without some kind of serial number? No more personally made guns that end up in commerce either through a sale or being stolen.
So if I 3-D print an A.R. 15 lower, how long do I have to get it to a entity that serializers them?
My worry is that as written and interpreted that this does not really change very much, but that in the future someone will sue and say that the A.R. 15‘s all need their upper and lower receivers serialized.
I want to send in a comment, but I’m not sure exactly what I would be commenting on or against- with out sounding like “MuY GUnS!”.
Combat_Diver
05-20-21, 22:22
Looks like it will be posted in the Federal Register Friday. Pistol Brace ruling coming out also shortly.
CD
Looks like it will be posted in the Federal Register Friday. Pistol Brace ruling coming out also shortly.
CD
Is that where you can comment on it or did they skip that step?
Mauser KAR98K
05-21-21, 11:48
https://youtu.be/-WpCoqPoi28
Is that where you can comment on it or did they skip that step?https://www.regulations.gov/commenton/ATF-2021-0001-0001
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Is it me or did I miss a couple million mass murders where the terrorist/killer/venting protestor left his AR-15 behind and because it had no serial number, the FBI/police/Lebron were unable to crack the crime and millions of murderers/jihadists/capitol trespassers were able to "excape" and commit more heinous acts of villainy? Of the 10,000+ firearm murders in the U.S. how many were actually committed with the dreaded "ghost gun"? Are we back to the Clinton era "assault rifle" ban plan that has zero data supporting any reason for it to even exist?
eightmillimeter
05-21-21, 22:18
Is it me or did I miss a couple million mass murders where the terrorist/killer/venting protestor left his AR-15 behind and because it had no serial number, the FBI/police/Lebron were unable to crack the crime and millions of murderers/jihadists/capitol trespassers were able to "excape" and commit more heinous acts of villainy? Of the 10,000+ firearm murders in the U.S. how many were actually committed with the dreaded "ghost gun"? Are we back to the Clinton era "assault rifle" ban plan that has zero data supporting any reason for it to even exist?
Ugh no, none of that matters.
They want to disarm you. To do that they need everything registered or on a list, to do that they need to either make everything NFA or implement UBC, or both, before that, everything is gonna need a serial number, you are here.
The gov does not want a balance of power. They want it all.
I commented on it yesterday.
However, under the current administration, I doubt it will do anything other than put my name on a list.
Not that i'm concerned, but I am curious how many lists that gets me up to.
I have tried to stay within the law, or "rulings" as atf gets to make law by decree, even though I know it's all a violation of "shall not be infringed", and ruling by decree is just as unconstitutional.
However, as has been well stated, their goal is disarmanent, to achieve complete control of the population, or eliminate those who would not be controlled.
If they can constantly change the rules as they see fit, and make me a criminal at every turn, while I have done nothing, and yet, these rules do not apply to them, then 'ol killary is right, what difference does it make???
Maybe it's time for a new mantra, from the old army recruitment ads "be all you can be".
We have all suffered merely because we just wanted to be left alone. Well, they've gained control, and will not be leaving us alone.
Nine days until the "Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms" comments close. As worthless as it could be, I still think it would be a wake up/beneficial to our cause to get a huge push and get hundreds of thousands of comments. It's at about 120K right now. I would hope that just huge numbers would, at the very least, give our emperors a moment of pause as to whether they want to ride that train. As with all of this lunacy in so many areas, millions of people just saying "NO" would turn the tide.
According to "reports" on the internet I saw, seems a lot of the anti-gun lemmings are being encouraged by their masters to comment in agreement with the new regulations. all the more reason to get the word out to drown the naysayers and ATF with a million pro Second Amendment comments.
Diamondback
08-12-21, 13:55
According to "reports" on the internet I saw, seems a lot of the anti-gun lemmings are being encouraged by their masters to comment in agreement with the new regulations. all the more reason to get the word out to drown the naysayers and ATF with a million pro Second Amendment comments.
Too bad most of our side are lazy asses who'd rather sit in their safe spaces and bitch than take even the simplest of actions!
"But I don't wanna get on THE LIST!" Well guess what buttercup, if you've ever had a carry permit you ALREADY ARE. If you've ever filled out a 4473 you ALREADY ARE. If you've ever been a member of NRA, GOA, SAF or similar you ALREADY ARE. If you're a veteran, particularly an MOS in the more personal Combat Arms like Infantry or the various SOCOM components, you ALREADY ARE. Do you wanna be on The List for nothing, or do you wanna make them take some heat in return for it?
Too bad most of our side are lazy asses who'd rather sit in their safe spaces and bitch than take even the simplest of actions!
"But I don't wanna get on THE LIST!" Well guess what buttercup, if you've ever had a carry permit you ALREADY ARE. If you've ever filled out a 4473 you ALREADY ARE. If you've ever been a member of NRA, GOA, SAF or similar you ALREADY ARE. If you're a veteran, particularly an MOS in the more personal Combat Arms like Infantry or the various SOCOM components, you ALREADY ARE. Do you wanna be on The List for nothing, or do you wanna make them take some heat in return for it?
Bravo! Something along the lines of existing, safely, on your knees or actually living, on your feet.
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