View Full Version : Should I Prepare to Retire my 6.8 SPC [ Spec. II ] ? Any Comments & or Input ?
Good Morning Kids, In addition to looking around for an 14.5" Upper, I've also been debating some options as to what the future holds for the 6.8 SPC Cartridge. First, let me state unequivocally that I personally LOVE my 6.8, which is a early production Stag Model 5 Carbine. [ However, I have always had an affinity for the slightly unusual, non-mainstream weapons & calibers, such as my Savage 99 in .358 Winchester, Glock 37 / 38 in .45 GAP, etc. ] My Stag, when purchased way back when, I had initially intended to buy just the Upper, but the seller offered me the complete weapon for a great price, so at least it's a complete with an 6.8 SPC marked Lower. In some ways I hate to part with it, as it's 'part for part', the equal of either of my Colts as far as fit & finish go anyway. Plus, caliber markings not withstanding, I could always utilize the Lower for someone else. My big, primary concern is regarding future ammunition supply, or should I say, lack thereof ! IIRC, years back there used to be a Website showing the relevant 'market position' of both SAAMI approved ammunition sales along with he same for RCBS & perhaps a few other brands of Reloading Dies ? I would just love to know exactly where the 6.8 SPC / Spec. II stands in relation to the other calibers within its particular realm. If anyone else out there has any relevant information on this issue, I would deeply appreciate hearing from them. THANK YOU Gents,
Best, Dom P. / dpast32
Dom,
It is still around. Pre-panic, it looked like Grendel was surpassing it in popularity based on the shelf space devoted to each locally. Honestly, it looked like SPC was dying out, although it seems to have a niche popularity on the internet. Peri-panic, it has been about as available as the other “alternative” AR chamberings. If you reload, the case got used for Valk, so if that catches on (I’m skeptical, despite the good performance), it’ll help keep brass available.
I think it’ll still be another 5+ years before it becomes a special order only niche of ammo. But I also think that the time that you could easily find a 1k case locally is years behind us.
I’d keep it, and I say that as a dude that *mostly* avoids “alternative” calibers. But I do have a .35 Rem levergun and a Grendel upper.
Or you could re-barrel it to a 6.5 Grendel. But I'm not sure I would make any decision based on ammo availability in the current market. Hang onto it for now and see how things unfold.
First, let me state unequivocally that I personally LOVE my 6.8, which is a early production Stag Model 5 Carbine.
........it's a complete with an 6.8 SPC marked Lower.
In some ways I hate to part with it, as it's 'part for part', the equal of either of my Colts as far as fit & finish go anyway.
The 6.8 SPC cartridge is as effective now as it was 10 years ago. If you don’t hand load, then this is a good reason to start (after the Pandemic ends.
Obviously you like it, so getting rid of it will just end up annoying you later. Keep it.
After the barrel’s used up, then it may be time to consider selling the lower vs buying a new 6.8 barrel.
I don’t shoot mine often, so my barrel will probably outlast me. I wouldn’t think for a second about getting rid of it. It gets along well with my not even broken in yet Grendel just fine.
FWIW, I've regretted the few weapons I've sold over the years, I'd keep it .
Hey THANKS Guys, I appreciate the input. When initially purchased, the 6.8x43 SPC was being highly touted by many, & was being watched by many more. I personally liked the 110 +/- grain head at around 2,500 FPS for an 'all around' short to medium range defensive weapon, so having a few extra bucks at the time, purchased one, along with 400 rds of the old 'red box' Hornandy L.E. 'TAP' Ammo. I ordered 200 of each, TAP & TAP Urban, along with a few hundred Remington FMC Loads. Most of the Remington is gone, but I still have all the TAP stored away. I ordered 7x PRI 25 rd Magazines, which along with the Barrett versions were the best available at the time. But, lately it just sits in silence, awaiting the call.
Best, Dom P.
I have 2 6.8spc and enough ammo to outlast me. I have no plans on changing that. Ballistics are fantastic. The only issue I have is that were not getting 30rnd mags for 8 bucks.
Davejohnson
06-27-21, 11:42
Years ago I considered which caliber I wanted for defense; finally settling on 6.8 SPC. I have an LWRC and a lot of ammo. I share your concerns that 6.8 might become an oddity. However, the ballistics for my own purpose are far superior than 5.56. IMO, 300 Blackout gets the nod for some (not all) people simply because it fits in a standard AR and is thus more economical. I prefer 6.8 to 300BO. In addition, my thought process was guided by the belief that there is probably never going to be a single cartridge developed that will be truly optimal for CQC, ergonomic/economics, and distance shooting. Therefore I am at peace with my choice knowing that the stopping power of my weapon is IMO, far superior than 5.56. The only weapon I have encountered which also serves my own purpose without jumping to 7.62x51 is the CMMG MK47 Resolute 7.62x39. The cost and availability of this caliber needs no comment; and I can tell you that I love shooting this gun. In 1992 I decided to settle on the 10mm cartridge. It was a much bigger decision then because I had very little money; but I made this decision for the same reasons I settled on 6.8 SPC. 10mm died for a while, but I didn't care because it's ballistics suited my purpose and I reloaded. Now look at the resurgence of popularity of 10mm. I would not count out 6.8 SPC for the same reason.
Yes, I too have pondered the '6.5 Grendel vs 6.8 SPC' debate, & although I've come to the undeniable fact that the Grendel is indeed a more efficient round for engagements over the 500 - 600 meters mark. If you study the relative ballistics of the two, you'll see without any doubt that over the above noted range, the Grendel holds the field. However, under the magic 550 mark, their relative external ballistics remain similar enough to allow the decision between the two to boil down to individual preference, ammunition availability, both local & mail order, along with existing weapons systems, if any ? In my particular case, I already have my beautiful STAG M-5 [ Spec. II, 16" bbl., M-4 Style ] which IIRC, was mfg'd in 2007 per Stag Arms confirmation when e-mailing to verify my chamber type. Personally, I haven't lost any love for my 6.8 SPC, & I feel it serves b the shooter quite well provided its use is kept within it's 'effective range'. Drawbacks ? Well, as with literally anything & everything in life, there's always some drawbacks, you simply can't get around it. You do loose 5 rounds of capacity in a 30 rd 5.56 format Magazine, & its recoil being slightly greater. But, I personally can deal with those issues, as can most individuals. Other than those, & of course your ammunition load being somewhat heavier, there isn't very much difference between it & the 5.56 variant in overall terms. Hopefully, when the ammunition availability issue is put to rest, one of the large volume ammunition manufacturers will see fit to add the 6.8 SPC Loading to their lineup ? If they can produce the Grendel, they can surely provide 6.8, if they see it as financially feasible ? These large East European producers do have another motive for offering the 6.5 Grendel, & that is, IIRC Serbia's Military / Police Forces either use it, or it may have become their standard issue Rifle caliber ? As with everything else, 'money' is the overall, underlying reason for most decisions, IMHO. I decided to keep my 6.8, although for now, it's resting, as its Lower is being utilized for my new BCM SOCOM Upper. But, as with the beauty of the AR15 System as a whole, I can simply & effortlessly swap it back to 6.8 SPC whenever I desire ! I would definitely say keep it if at all possible, for as we're all aware, who truly knows what will be available, & or permissible in the near future under the 'Bobble Head in Chief's increasingly Draconian quasi Dictatorship ?
Dom P.
mebgardner
12-11-21, 09:01
I see that Winchester is now manufacturing their USA Ready brand in 6.8 SPC 115 gr. OTHP.
THANK YOU very much 'mebgardner', I truly appreciate the 'heads up' ! As I'm sure you're already aware, the relative cost of quality 6.8x43 ammunition was one of the primary factors in my placing it in 'semi retirement', at least temporarily anyway. Hopefully, as the ammunition supply & demand situation slowly, but surely begins to come under control, we'll be able to obtain our 6.8 SPC for a reasonable cost ? THANKS AGAIN, & may I wish both you & yours a safe & happy Holiday Season.
Best regards, dpast32
mebgardner
12-11-21, 09:18
You are welcome, and I am continuing to build and buy 6.8 SPC.
Happy Holidays to You, sir.
$17 a box for brass case PPC (https://www.laxammo.com/prvi-partizan-6-8-rem-spc-115-gr-fmj-bt-20-rounds-pp68f) is very good compared to 6.5 Grendel right now. Wolf steel case is $13, and brass case starts at $1.50 per cartridge! Prices from AmmoSeek.com
NOT giving up my 6.8 rig.
I have many sizable bucks down due to its capabilities, and it's a great build (original Kotonics - Tim Hicks upper) that I've squirreled away plenty of brass and bullets for. I'll be using this rifle for a LONG time. My primary ARs are all 5.56, but I do shoot this one from time to time, and it's fully capable of filling multiple roles. I've been reloading for it since the beginning, so I was at a bit of an advantage.
My 6.8 is my favorite rifle. It shoots better than my 556. I too have plenty of brass. Will keep shooting as a primary deer gun for the Florida flat woods. 120 SST Hornady and 110 Accubond Nosler, when I can find them, do the trick. Just my 2 cents.
The current situation is exactly what I've been hoping, & waiting for ! That is, the fact of numerous assorted manufacturers now introducing their 6.8 SPC ammunition ! As we all know, prior to this, although we did have 6.8 SPC loading's available, but they were primarily 'top shelf' brands, therefore selling for corresponding prices. At least now, it appears as if most of the European, Russian, & possibly other Regional ammunition producers are getting on the band wagon, & the result of course is reduced prices for us, the consumers ! In fact, just the other day I came across Federal / ATK American Eagle type 115 FMJ for .75¢ per Round, 'delivered' when you order a Case of 500 Rds. And from what I've seen, that's not too bad at all, IMHO. THANKS Guys for the Replies !
I started to reload 6.8 then scraped the plan. If anyone reloads and would like to buy supplies, I have brass and bullets. PM me and I will go see what I have in storage.
PB
Never retire your arms, just put them in a different order for use.
Purchased a Rock River 6.8 upper at the Knob creek MG show 2010 or so. Like others I did like the cartridge and it is plenty for my area. Even 12 years ago loaded .308 was cheaper than 6.8 brass and I sold off the upper. Logistics favor 5.56 and 7.62 NATO so right now that is what I have. If things straighten out get back to reasonable I would but another 6.8spc.
I was a pretty early 6.8 adopter (2007 or so) I don't think anything else would replace it for me.
Handloading is the best way to get the top performance and actually have ammo to shoot.
Bellycrawl
04-27-22, 08:12
I adopted the 6.8 around 2007 and then sold it off for lighter large frame ARs and back then there was a lack of inexpensive ammo. Back then, I was buying SSA ammo, and it wasn't cheap. I've since moved to the 6 ARC. I wish I would have never sold the 6.8. With a 12" pistol, it was probably the most convenient hunting rifle I had for stalking deer in the hills of MO. Very versatile round.
Blessings,
constructor
06-24-22, 17:09
It is perfect for hunting whitetails and hogs, not too small, not too large.
Hog hunting in Texas with a 6.8(not me)
https://youtu.be/Kvi1C868wdk
I don't have a 6.8, but I do love non mainstream calibers. Mine are 6.5 Grendel and 357sig. I will not sell them but 99% of the time it is 5.56 and 9mm I use now, for everyday use.
Good Morning Kids, In addition to looking around for an 14.5" Upper, I've also been debating some options as to what the future holds for the 6.8 SPC Cartridge. First, let me state unequivocally that I personally LOVE my 6.8, which is a early production Stag Model 5 Carbine. [ However, I have always had an affinity for the slightly unusual, non-mainstream weapons & calibers, such as my Savage 99 in .358 Winchester, Glock 37 / 38 in .45 GAP, etc. ] My Stag, when purchased way back when, I had initially intended to buy just the Upper, but the seller offered me the complete weapon for a great price, so at least it's a complete with an 6.8 SPC marked Lower. In some ways I hate to part with it, as it's 'part for part', the equal of either of my Colts as far as fit & finish go anyway. Plus, caliber markings not withstanding, I could always utilize the Lower for someone else. My big, primary concern is regarding future ammunition supply, or should I say, lack thereof ! IIRC, years back there used to be a Website showing the relevant 'market position' of both SAAMI approved ammunition sales along with he same for RCBS & perhaps a few other brands of Reloading Dies ? I would just love to know exactly where the 6.8 SPC / Spec. II stands in relation to the other calibers within its particular realm. If anyone else out there has any relevant information on this issue, I would deeply appreciate hearing from them. THANK YOU Gents,
Best, Dom P. / dpast32
I still use my 6.8s and like shooting them. If you have the ammo you need, the 6.8 ought to still be valid for the purpose you bought it for. I recently added an upper with a 16” stainless Wilson Combat barrel; for me is a keeper and still nicer to shoot larger than 5.56. Even more than some of my favorite 7.62s (e.g., Tavor) which is also a keeper.
win&legend
08-25-22, 10:26
I'd suggest keeping it. I run both 5.56 and 6.8 SPC using Robert MURG concept in the 2008 NDIA. I like 5.56 for it's cheap cost, wide availability / cross compatability, but it's terminal performance is indeed marginal. There are NO do it all bullets available to civilians. Your either stuck with 77gr OTM which has very poor barrier blind performance and is somewhat susceptible to AOA variations (not as bad as M855 or XM193) or 62gr ATK bonded (Federal) loads, most of which are not even available in the NATO spec load. Horrible BC of .224 for that load so it's performance sucks at non-CQC distances. The terminal performance of the bonded SP is also not as good on direct hits as 77gr OTM which is probably one of the most destructive 5.56 projectiles aside from 100gr OTM (but that had poor exterior ballistics as the velocity was too low).
MK318 is now defunct / completely out of production since the Marines adopted M855A1 and M855A1 is not available to civilians in any quantity (anything out there is more of a boot legged type of purchase rather than from a consistent production source) and M855A1 still sucks against glass (compared to MK318) according to a report from 2013 also by Dr. Roberts. So what does that leave? 64gr BTSP from Winchester, also not too great against barriers and so so BC, the infamously inconsistent M855 and XM193 ball ammunition which suck against glass, have AOA issues from 0-50 yards and again once velocity drops below 2500~2600 FPS...some solid copper loads in the 55gr weight from Hornady and Barnes that have poor BC's and some of which don't do to well against glass, again. Am I missing something?
Some terminal performance issues with 5.56 can be reduced by modern projectile designs, but some issues are more caliber / bullet form factor specific and case capacity specific that can only truly be resolved by a change to a larger caliber and case. So that's why I maintain my 6.8 SPC as it provides those benefits. Nearly all the bullets in 6.8 SPC perform reasonably well as do other larger calibers like .308 etc. You can loose 50% of a 110gr OTM and you still have a whole 5.56 bullet's mass coming out the other side! And regarding hunting uses, 6.5 Grendel does not buy anyone any range, take a look at this video of a 6.5 Grendel guy testing 123gr SST hand load from a 20" barrel, at 500 yards it did not expand AT ALL. Yet we know for a fact 120gr SST expands down to 1700 FPS in 6.8 SPC because of the higher drag.
Drag works against you when flying through the air, buy FOR YOU when impacting the target. Extremely low drag bullets require higher velocities to produce sufficient drag just to expand at all and even higher velocities to expand as much as larger calibers. Thus any small velocity advantages of 6.5 Grendel for hunting purposes are IRRELEVANT as both cartridges are limited to about 400 yards to get expansion, but 6.8 SPS is more destructive.
Take a look at what I get from two hand built uppers:
16" Daniels Defense 1:7 NATO barrel: 2585 FPS from IMI 77gr Razor Core (I get 2685 from 77gr Black Hills which is the hottest 77gr load I've used, but the difference by 500 yards is only 30 ft-lbs). The BC of 77gr OTM is around 0.362 G1
16" Daniels Defense 1:11 SPC II S2W barrel: 2600 FPS flat from 110gr Hornady OTM and these are SAAMI spec loads, not true SPC II spec. BC is 0.360. Nearly identical trajectory to 77gr IMI, but much more mass / energy (nearly 50% by 500 yards). I
Both are very accurate (1MOA consistently), but 110gr OTM does rather well through glass and a variety of barriers that 77gr does not. 110gr also produces a much longer wound channel in my ballistic gel and with a neck length of only 2 inches vs. 4 inches for 77gr (aka 77gr still doe not yaw in the ideal range of 3" or less). I also shot M855 from that same barrel and got around 2960 FPS, right on spec, but the neck length is terrible, nearly 6 inches before yaw! That load would ice pick and is not suited for duty (let alone it's also terrible glass performance).
And long range? Bah! What a joke. I know people will talk about exterior ballistics past 500-600 yards...yet most of those people have never even shot out that far and certainly NOT under field conditions which are far less ideal than bench rests at a range. Simply put, 6.5 Grendel is NOT a long range cartridge. You can shoot it out to 800-1000 with longer barrels and the right loads, but the terminal performance at that range is ABYSMAL, especially compared to 6.5 Creedmoor or 277 Sig Fury etc. At a 1,000 yards 6.5 Grendel bullets have the KE less than a .22 LR, wont' expand and have poor barrier blind performance due to their inherent instability (longer thinner projectiles are more unstable than shorter fatter ones)! It's a mid-range cartridge just like 5.56, 6.8 SPC, but has weaker bolts (aka same issues at 7.62x39mm AR's and why 300 BO is a superior choice in an M4, mostly due to reliability) and terminal performance that is between 5.56 and 6.8 at it's usable ranges. It was focused primarily to maximize exterior ballistics all else be damned, but can serve as a decent hunting cartridge and for home defense. Lethal, but not ideal by any means.
You simply cannot pack more fire power into an M4 than 6.8 SPC at the effective ranges one can realistically shoot. SF was primarily looking to enhance performance from 0-400 with occasional use out to 500-600 in rare circumstances. You can get frag / expansion out to 400 from 16" barrels with 6.8 SPC and at ranges past that the bullet in any of these calibers is just a FMJ, so you need precision shot placement or deal with decreased wounding, which at those ranges is ok as they aren't going to be placing precision return fire from 500 yard after getting shot in the lung with an OTM that didn't expand, especially in larger calibers, even if they survive.
I think the fact that the US Military required 6.8mm says it all. That requirement was decided BECAUSE of the testing done during development of 6.8 SPC and various other calibers and even 5.56 ammunition. What they found is that when comparing the same bullet design, 6.8mm projectiles had the ideal balance of damage vs. exterior ballistics. I'm not sure why people are so obsesses with exterior ballistics and this fantasy of long range engagements with 6.5 Grendel...it's poorly suited to being used at those ranges even if it can place hits that far.
Long distances will always be dominated by larger cartridges. Period. If your in the mountains of Afghanistan, would you rather have 6.5 Grendel that has less KE than .22 LR at 1,000 yards or 277 Sig Fury or 6.5 Creedmoor? Why not simply return to having a dedicated DMR at the Fire Team or Squad Level like most other militaries? Russia still employs SVD's in 54R to augment 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm assault troops vs. trying to use one caliber that compromises too much in one area or another.
1. 2008 Report on Small Arms (Roberts, 2008): https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf
2. An Optimized Caliber and the IC Competition (Schatz, 2011): https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2011/smallarms/WednesdayAmmo11456Schatz.pdf
3. Do We Need a New Service Rifle Cartridge? (Schatz, 2012): https://sadefensejournal.com/do-we-need-a-new-service-rifle-cartridge/
4. Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts (Roberts, 2013): http://nebula.wsimg.com/fb54bbe7bcde47ffde93ea48ce9b9f13?AccessKeyId=D0DCC35FC05D0FC60556&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
5. Where To Now 17354 (Schatz, 2015): https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2015/smallarms/17354_Schatz.pdf
6. The Path to Overmatch 18260 (Schatz, 2016): https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2016/armament/18260_Schatz.pdf
7. 19394 Maintaining Overmatch (Zhou, 2017): https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2017/armament/Zhou19394.pdf
If you read through that sequence, you can see all of the testing data and also how their thinking changed over time. Ultimately they really liked what they saw in 6.8 SPC, however they decided that they wanted to add capability to defeat body armor at ranges that 5.56, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC etc. and other intermediate calibers could not (typically they were all limited to 75~100 yards for defeating level IV). That simply required a larger cartridge period. They also wanted extended ranges beyond what any of these intermediate calibers can practically deliver. So they took the 6.8mm 130~135gr bullet requirement and added some velocity, aka approx. 3000 FPS and from a 16" barrel length (carbine).
We now ended up with 277 Sig Fury and the M5 rifle, the M250 belt fed machine gun. However 277 Fury has ALL the same disadvantages as .308, just enhanced exterior ballistics with nearly the same terminal performance. Higher recoil, half the ammo capacity, large muzzle blast / flash requiring a suppressor and a much heavier AR-10 like weight (the MCX Spear aka M8 is 8.4lbs UNLOADED, NO SIGHTS, NO MAG etc.). I think the belt fed is a great, but I think the M5 is NOT going to replace all M4's in 5.56, instead I think it will more realistically augment them as a DMR role with much more enhanced performance over an SVD in 54R. It's well suited to true intermediate (300-600) and even long range engagements (600 to 1,000).
win&legend
08-25-22, 10:44
BTW take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiEx_JQCfbg
123gr SST hand load, 6.5 Grendel from a 20" barrel almost nobody uses on an AR except for hunting. Zero expansion. According to Hornady ballistics calculator, that bullet would impact at around 1800 FPS at that range, with that MV. So we know for a fact that 6.5mm low drag projectiles require more velocity just to get any expansion. Cavity Back Bullets lists the same thing, 6.5mm MKZ requires about 100 FPS more to expand than 6.8mm MKZ. So at ranges one can actually shoot and hit something in the real world, especially when taking incoming fire, there's no advantage, in fact your at a disadvantage because of barrier blind and direct hit terminal performance is inferior with 6.5mm. They literally tested 6.5mm SPC...and 6mm and 7mm and 7.62mm, all in the same case, same bullet designs.
I still scratch my head to this day why people think 6mm and 6.5mm low drag bullets are magic. They somehow have low drag while flying through the air but magically then have higher drag upon initial impact. What they fail to realize is that their low drag bullets actually require more velocity to achieve any expansion because you have to generate enough drag forces to deform the bullet, thus the slight benefits in velocity, drop and drift at 400~500 yards are meaningless because they are so small and because they don't make up for the higher velocity requirement to achieve desired terminal performance.
But at ranges past 500 yards other larger calibers deliver far better performance like 7.62x51mm, 6.5 Creedmoor, 277 Fury etc. that hold much higher velocities where they will still expand / fragment. My point is that 6.8 SPC is a very well designed cartridge that delivers approximately 80% of the terminal performance of a 7.62x51mm out to 300 yards on target with the same effective range as the existing 5.56 (accurate out to 500~600 yards) and close to the same system weight and ammo capacity as 5.56, while maintaining 5.56 like reliability in an M4 chassis. Blast and flash is also fairly comparable to 5.56 if not a bit less in my personal experiences.
There simply is not a better suited cartridge to the M4 than 6.8 SPC and why should there be? It's competitor, the 6.5 Grendel was not designed by members of the US Military, it was designed by someone focusing on exterior ballistics rather than addressing terminal performance issues from 0-400 yards. While 6.5 does offer superior terminal performance on direct hits compared to 5.56, it's not as good as 6.8 SPC and 6.5mm low drag projectiles perform rather poorly against barriers (similar to 77gr OTM's). So what are you gaining?
75% of combat in Afghanistan took place at distances und 485 yards. That's 3/4 of engagements and the remaining 25% were primarily in the mountains, not in the urban areas that typically did not exceed 500 yards. So why not take a suitable tool for the mission? Going up to the mountains...take a larger caliber, the trade offs are worth it. Fighting in the towns and city areas? Take 6.8 SPC in a light weight M4.
I think 6.8 SPC is getting some new attention due to the results of the NGSW project and their final choice of 277 Sig Fury. 6.8 SPC is like 277 Sig Fury Short or 277 Sig Fury is like a 6.8 SPC Magnum, however you look at it.
Current Ammo Suppliers for 6.8 SPC:
1. Hornady 110gr Black (VMax), 120gr SST, 100gr CX (you can buy the original 110gr OTM bullets for hand loading still)
2. Federal 115gr Fusion and 90gr Fusion
3. Barnes 95gr TTSX and 110gr TSX loaded by Wilson Combat
4. S&B 110gr PTS (this is actually one of the best all around bullets for 6.8 SPC) and 110gr FMJ for practice
5. 105gr MKZ and 120gr MKZ
6. Winchester 115gr OTM and 115gr Extreme Point
7. PPU 115gr OTM and FMJ
8. Underwood 110gr VMax
9. Remington UMC 115gr FMJ
10. Druid Hill Armor SPC II loaded 110gr VMax, 120gr SST etc.
11. Stand 1 Armory 120gr SST
12. And if your LE / Military / Private Security you can get 75gr or 97gr Tungsten AP: https://modernarmsinternational.com/category/law-enforcement/6-8-spc-le/
THANKS 'win&legend' very much for your quite informative & detailed reply, it was much appreciated. I tended to be a Fan of the 6.8 SPC almost immediately, as soon as I became aware if its overall capabilities & 'middle of the road' effectiveness. I was willing to accept the 5 rd capacity loss, if it meant gaining the advantage of an 110+/- grain projectile at around 2,600 FPS, as opposed to the basic 5.56 NATO of 62 grain M-855 at around 2,600 FPS from a 14.5". IMHO, there's much to be gained as a mid-range cartridge, without a whole lot not to like, at least as far as I'm concerned. Some people tend to champion the 6.5 Grendel over the 6.8, & if you're comparing some long range usage, well it does lag slightly behind. I feel the SPC is entirely suitable for out to 650 meters, & will handle anything below that quite nicely. Personally, I'm glad I need keep mine, as it allows me to utilize yet another useful caliber for both hunting, & short to medium+ range defensive purposes. THANKS AGAIN for your input, it was truly appreciated.
Best regards, Dom P. / 'dpast32'
Well, just responding to the title…. Mike Pannone just burned through his remaining 6.8SPC and is rebarreling that upper to a different caliber. So there’s one person who thinks it is done.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg99W6bJMWH/?igshid=NmNmNjAwNzg=
Win&Legend,
thanks for putting the time into all that, but:
You say that Grendel expansion sucks out at 500yds, but SPC Hornady factory SST will expand down to 1700fps. While I believe both of those things may be true, you may want to run the numbers on that. That load gets you 375yds of expansion with the 1700fps floor, so it would produce the same shitty results at 500.
There was exactly as much need for discussion of .mil interest in 6.8 SPC as there is for .mil interest in .260Rem. And comparison with 6.8Fury belongs as much as the dude that brings up 300PRC in a discussion of 30-30. They are not alike in any way but bore diameter.
Dom,
Minor thing, but you mention M855 being 2600 from a 14.5” gun. Thats not quite right; that’s a Mk18 velocity. From a 14.5”, M855 can be expected to be in the 2900s. The main point you were making about energy is still true, of course.
Well Guys, Please be advised that after my thinking about it, that unless I had someone ready to offer me an exceptional sum for my 6.8, I have decided to keep it indefinitely. As we all know, it definitely performs over & above the 5.56 for pretty much all purposes, both 'serious' work, & hunting. I'm honestly not certain as to it can claim to be more accurate than the 5.56 but for my intended purposes, it really doesn't matter, as my longest shot would under 600 +/- meters, for which the 6.8, provided it's fed the proper ammunition should perform nicely. When initially purchased, I obtained whatever I thought would be required, so picked up an ample supply of 25 rd PRI 'Waffle' Magazines, along with the C Products 25 rd one that came with it. As far as available ammunition, well, unfortunately I never stocked up, as up until recently only the premium brands were available. ( At least I did pick up some 600 rds, broken down into 240 rds of 110 gr. Hornandy L.E. TAP, 240 rds of 110 gr. Hornandy L.E. TAP 'Urban', & 120 rds of Remington 115 gr. BTHP ) So theoretically at least, I should have enough to get my Stag Model 5 nice & hot anyway. And, in addition to possessing an additional Caliber, I have yet another reason for my Stag M-5. I also utilize the Receiver for my recently obtained BCM 5.56 Complete Upper, which I ordered with an 14.5" P & W Barrel. That way I can use the BCM for whatever, & keep my Colts from getting worn or dinged up. ( Colt R-6520 & 6920 ) I & probably many others here may have felt that the 6.8 SPC was definitely 'going somewhere' when it was introduced. Yet, once the U.S. decided it wouldn't be 'cost effective' to convert all the existing M-16 / M-4's to it, it all but fell by the wayside so to speak. As far as I know, the only subsequent U.S. Government usage was some occasional use by USSF Personnel, & a few Foreign entities, primarily in the Middle East arena. It remains too darn bad for everyone, as the 6.8 SPC did indeed have something to offer the average user, whether they be Military, Law Enforcement, & or Civilian, it offered something for everyone, at least IMHO. So, 'hopefully' as ammunition supplies make their way onto store shelves & Internet Order Depots, just maybe we'll start seeing some S&B FMJ, Fiocchi, PPU, & or any of the other lower cost ammo to feed our 6.8's, thereby saving the 'good stuff' for more important uses.
Best, Dom P.
I'd suggest keeping it. I run both 5.56 and 6.8 SPC using Robert MURG concept in the 2008 NDIA. ).
TLDR; snip (actually, I did read it in the follow-ups)
Summary:
Grendel won't work at 600 yards in Afghanistan based on some randos YouTube video so the Army decided it needed 6.8 sig fury therefore my (heavily emotionally invested) 6.spc is better
I'm not going to bother to address some of your anti-grendel myths. (Some things that are valid) This is an SPC thread.
Many of your points I actually agree with pertaining to intermediate cartridges.
There are many nuances between Grendel and SPC. You just wanted to point out the ones positive for SPC.
But the fact remains that an intermediate cartridge (SPC or Grendel) does not solve a problem the infantry current has. Or more accurately the trade-offs are not justified by the benefits. It remains to be seen whether the M5 will be worth the load out weight increase or if it's something from the good idea of fairy.
At least with the intermediate cartridge the only increase was the additional ammo weight for std loadout. With the M5 there is an additional weight with the carbine.
TLDR; snip (actually, I did read it in the follow-ups)
Summary:
Grendel won't work at 600 yards in Afghanistan based on some randos YouTube video so the Army decided it needed 6.8 sig fury therefore my (heavily emotionally invested) 6.spc is better
I'm not going to bother to address some of your anti-grendel myths. (Some things that are valid) This is an SPC thread.
Many of your points I actually agree with pertaining to intermediate cartridges.
There are many nuances between Grendel and SPC. You just wanted to point out the ones positive for SPC.
But the fact remains that an intermediate cartridge (SPC or Grendel) does not solve a problem the infantry current has. Or more accurately the trade-offs are not justified by the benefits. It remains to be seen whether the M5 will be worth the load out weight increase or if it's something from the good idea of fairy.
At least with the intermediate cartridge the only increase was the additional ammo weight for std loadout. With the M5 there is an additional weight with the carbine.
I concur. I wouldn’t ditch a SPC if its what I had (I think OP should keep his), and it is more than adequate for many uses. Infantry isn’t one of them. You get more weight, less ammo, and reduced MPBR. When all of your best friends, plus a 240 or 3 are fighting as a team and there are grenade launchers and 249s integrated, the improvement in lethality is marginal, at best. There is essentially no benefit, all downsides, in that setting. For home-D, hunting, target shooting or LE work, none of this matters, so rock on.
Hey '1168', Just a quick THANKS for your correction on the 14.5" / 5.56 velocity, I appreciate it. I've been digesting so very many assorted muzzle velocities, energy figures, trajectory data, etc, etc. In fact when I was just a kid back in the 1960's, my favorite reading material were the American Rifleman & the Remington Ammunition Catalog, as it almost always included all the related ballistics data. When I remember way back then, I distinctly recall all the now long gone calibers then available. I would read & read again, just dreaming about the day I could own my own firearms. But, it looks like I'm getting off topic here, so THANKS AGAIN.
Best, Dom P.
Well, I've officially decided that it would be indeed foolish, [ aka stupid ] for me to sell off my 6.8 SPC Stag M-5, period !! For the purposes I initially purchased it, it performs each & every task I asked of it, & performed them all beautifully ! And, even though ammunition prices, & to a somewhat lesser extent availability can be 'limited' at the moment, I don't require all that much to accomplish what I obtained it for, which is basically home / self defense purposes. As it stands, I still have around 500 +/- rds available, & the bulk of it is excellent defense ammo, so what more or else do I truly need ? I have a few Optics which can be swapped back & forth as needed, so that's covered. As purchased, it didn't come with any Iron Sights, so I picked up a very useable ARMS M-40 Folding Rear Peep, which I sometimes prefer over Optics if you can believe that. ( Hey, I grew up on Iron Sights, & remember if you're primary Optic goes down or becomes damaged, guess what you're using ? ) One particular issue ( if it really is an issue to begin with ? ) is the fact that my Stag M-5 wasn't manufactured with the M-4 Feed Ramps, as were all Stag 6.8's at that particular time. After some thought, & investigation, I came to the conclusion that it really didn't require the M-4 Ramps, due to it being Semi-Automatic only. IIRC, the M-4 Feed Ramps were introduced primarily to assist function during Fully Automatic fire, not Semi, or at least that's what I was advised. ( If I'm wrong on this point, please correct me ? ) Also, I've never heard of any Feeding related issues pertaining to the Stag 6.8's, so perhaps the 'proof is indeed in the pudding' as they say. Anyways, I plan on keeping my 6.8, for the only potential concern I can currently think about would be ammunition availability sometime down the road. Hopefully, there's enough of us 6.8 users to keep some Company making a few runs yearly ? And, if ammo does become an issue, well, then I guess I'll just have to swap the 6.8 Upper with someone more available. THANK YOU Guys, for all the kind assistance.
Best, Dom P.
constructor
09-15-22, 09:22
Back around 2008 they said the 6.8 has 80% of the performance of the 308 with less recoil and the weight of an AR15, it was just a general broad description. 2 years ago I decided I wanted to build a 16" 308 and this summer I finally had time to reload or try to work up some good loads using the MK319 130gr bullets for this 16" 308(45gr powder). When checking velocity and ES I noticed the velocity was low, only 150fps faster than the 6.8 can propel 130gr bullet with 33% less powder(30gr). I tried almost every powder I could find in the 308 and could not get the velocity up any higher than the Federal mk319 ammo. The 308 really needs a longer barrel to allow time for that extra 15gr of powder to burn and get the velocity out of it.
Yeah a 14.5 or 16" 308 may look cool but it's not very efficient and the old claim of the 6.8 having 80% of the performance of the 308 is fairly close. I think I'll stick with the 6.8 for short barrel work and leave the 308s at 18" or longer.
Stopsign32v
09-15-22, 11:47
You're still comparing a 6.8 bullet vs a 7.62
I would take a 7.62 bullet traveling 150fps faster than a 6.8 vs a 6.8 bullet traveling 150fps slower than a 7.62...If we are just talking performance.
When checking velocity and ES I noticed the velocity was low, only 150fps faster than the 6.8 can propel 130gr bullet with 33% less powder(30gr).
Is that 6.8 velocity with mass market bolts or something special?
constructor
09-16-22, 19:01
Is that 6.8 velocity with mass market bolts or something special?
Carp 158 or 9310, Microbest is good, 6.8 bolts don't break like Grendel bolts.
constructor
09-16-22, 19:04
You're still comparing a 6.8 bullet vs a 7.62
I would take a 7.62 bullet traveling 150fps faster than a 6.8 vs a 6.8 bullet traveling 150fps slower than a 7.62...If we are just talking performance.
I'm looking at more than just performance, weight of the rifle, weight of ammo and recoil. If I'm building a CQB-300 rifle I would rather have a smaller lighter rifle with a better mag capacity. If I'm going to shoot 600 yds I'm not going to chop a 308 barrel short.
If I'm building a CQB-300 rifle I would rather have a smaller lighter rifle with a better mag capacity. strongly agree.
Stopsign32v
09-17-22, 11:54
I'm looking at more than just performance, weight of the rifle, weight of ammo and recoil. If I'm building a CQB-300 rifle I would rather have a smaller lighter rifle with a better mag capacity. If I'm going to shoot 600 yds I'm not going to chop a 308 barrel short.
Then just run a 5.56
Carp 158 or 9310, Microbest is good, 6.8 bolts don't break like Grendel bolts.Can't let this mistruth go without a comment, it's been a decade or more since people have had issues with grendel bolts breaking.
I'm sure you could break one, but it's not common. Bill Alexander told me personally that the early rash of bolt breakage was due to a bad heat treat on some of the ones when he was working with Lothar Walther early on.
I will admit that the 6.8 bolt is stronger due to less bolt thrust and more meat on the bolt face. So I'll concede that point, but it's realistically not an issue now.
constructor
09-17-22, 14:45
Can't let this mistruth go without a comment, it's been a decade or more since people have had issues with grendel bolts breaking.
I'm sure you could break one, but it's not common. Bill Alexander told me personally that the early rash of bolt breakage was due to a bad heat treat on some of the ones when he was working with Lothar Walther early on.
I will admit that the 6.8 bolt is stronger due to less bolt thrust and more meat on the bolt face. So I'll concede that point, but it's realistically not an issue now.
Anyone can go to the Grendel forum and read, seems like someone broke a bolt just a few months ago.
https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?23779-Even-the-pretty-Grendel-bolts-can-shear
https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?19736-Broken-6mmAR-Bolt
https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?17923-6mm-AR-broken-bolt
LR1955 LR1955 is offline
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Quote Originally Posted by FLshooter View Post
I have never broke a bolt in an AR 15. And I don’t know anyone who has. I have heard of this happening. But it had to be due to high pressure ammo.Stay within specs with your hand loads and you should be fine.
Well, I have sheared lugs on three Colt 7.62 X 39 bolts in a Grendel, one AA Grendel bolt, and a machined out 5.56 bolt. I have also sheared a lug on a Grendel bolt in a 6 AR.
However -- these bolts were before the enhanced bolts that seem to be holding up well today. Before these enhanced bolts, there were periodic reports on the forum of guys shearing lugs. It was not uncommon and seemed to plague the Grendel until adjustable gas blocks and the enhanced bolts.
LR55
LR55 is a very respected shooter who has been shooting Grendel almost since it first became available.
Note that he said three were 762x39 bolts, which are specifically not Grendel bolts and have much less meat in key areas.
Early on, many mfgs would just open up a 223 bolt face. You can get away with that with 7.62x39, but not Grendel due to higher pressure. But even for 7.62x39 it's considered weak and not what Colt did.
That's what a lot of people used early on with grendel, incorrectly. And led to the stupid type 1 or type 2 stuff.
Also note that he said that since the "enhanced" bolts came out it is very infrequent. He's referring to the 9310 bolts with proper heat treating.
As I acknowledged, you can break a Grendel bolt if you load it above saami pressure. Which unlike SPC, is the proper pressure for ARs due to bolt thrust limits.
Just not an issue with factory or good reloads.
Many of us have shot many thousands rounds of Grendel and never had an issue.
constructor
09-17-22, 17:10
LR55 is a very respected shooter who has been shooting Grendel almost since it first became available.
Note that he said three were 762x39 bolts, which are specifically not Grendel bolts and have much less meat in key areas.
Early on, many mfgs would just open up a 223 bolt face. You can get away with that with 7.62x39, but not Grendel due to higher pressure. But even for 7.62x39 it's considered weak and not what Colt did.
That's what a lot of people used early on with grendel, incorrectly. And led to the stupid type 1 or type 2 stuff.
Also note that he said that since the "enhanced" bolts came out it is very infrequent. He's referring to the 9310 bolts with proper heat treating.
As I acknowledged, you can break a Grendel bolt if you load it above saami pressure. Which unlike SPC, is the proper pressure for ARs due to bolt thrust limits.
Just not an issue with factory or good reloads.
Many of us have shot many thousands rounds of Grendel and never had an issue.
Yes I started shooting one in 2005 when Arne was selling them before Bill A trademarked the name "Grendel" I broke the first bolt in the first rifle I owned. That is part of the reason I designed the "superbolt" of course it was 2009 before I purchased CNCs and started machining them. I also broke a few Y/M 5.56 bolts in 3 gun rifles with high round counts back in the 90s, they broke at the cam pin hole. 2007 rolled around and Lietner Wise original owner of LWRC designed and manufactured his lobstertail extractor 6.8 bolt out of 9310. To test, I fired 131 rounds at a 3 gun event in Durango Co, they were loaded to 70,000psi on purpose. The lugs did not shear but I had chips around the cam pin hole. I tested the bolts for hardness and they were a touch over 70C converted. That gave me the last piece of the puzzle, they should be hard enough to have strength but not so hard they are brittle.
BTW if a Grendel bolt and a 7.62x39 bolt are made from the same material with the same heat treat the 7.62x39 will be 7-8% stronger at the lugs due to the extra .012" attachment/support of the lugs.
Yes I started shooting one in 2005 when Arne was selling them before Bill A trademarked the name "Grendel" I broke the first bolt in the first rifle I owned. That is part of the reason I designed the "superbolt" of course it was 2009 before I purchased CNCs and started machining them. I also broke a few Y/M 5.56 bolts in 3 gun rifles with high round counts back in the 90s, they broke at the cam pin hole. 2007 rolled around and Lietner Wise original owner of LWRC designed and manufactured his lobstertail extractor 6.8 bolt out of 9310. To test, I fired 131 rounds at a 3 gun event in Durango Co, they were loaded to 70,000psi on purpose. The lugs did not shear but I had chips around the cam pin hole. I tested the bolts for hardness and they were a touch over 70C converted. That gave me the last piece of the puzzle, they should be hard enough to have strength but not so hard they are brittle.
BTW if a Grendel bolt and a 7.62x39 bolt are made from the same material with the same heat treat the 7.62x39 will be 7-8% stronger at the lugs due to the extra .012" attachment/support of the lugs.I got my first Grendel in 2008, and shot it enough that I've worn out brass reloading. A lot of that was hotter than it should have been.
By that time bolt failures were pretty much a thing of the past.
As your comment about 7.62x39 versus Grendel bolts, neither Colt nor Bill Alexander's stress analysis agrees with you.
While it seems counterintuitive that a deeper face would be stronger, it's not just about the lugs, it's also about the extractor cut and how it the stress interacts with the lugs.
This thread is about SPC so you can get back to arguing about a SPC. I know you have a lot of experience with barrels and 5.56 bolts. But I also know that you take every opportunity to bash Grendel and have a strong financial vested interest in SPC over grendel. So we'll just leave it at that.
Much of what you're write about midpower cartridges at range I agree with. Grendel and SPC are so close in performance and each has slight advantages in certain areas. It also depends on what bullets you're using and what you're trying to do with it. So to me it's not worth arguing about. But when flat-out mistruths are repeated as gospel I have to speak up.
One last observation: 70k PSI is amazing even with the smaller SPC bolt face.
constructor
09-18-22, 17:57
t.
As your comment about 7.62x39 versus Grendel bolts, neither Colt nor Bill Alexander's stress analysis agrees with you.
While it seems counterintuitive that a deeper face would be stronger, it's not just about the lugs, it's also about the extractor cut and how it the stress interacts with the lugs.
.
Any engineer can explain to you why the 7.62x39 bolt is stronger. The lugs are .277" long, if you bore out the center .136" deep you only have .141" of full strength attachment. A 7.62x39 bolt would have .153" full strength attachment.
The cut for extractor has zero effect on the strength of the lugs unless you make it wider and undercut the lugs further.
The reason for the .136 depth was because in the beginning AA was re-machining 5.56 bolts and because the Lapua brass had a thicker rim they had to recess the bolt face deeper so the extractor would grab the thicker rim.
Fast forward several years when Grendel bolts were designed and machined specifically for the Grendel they could have drilled the extractor hole .012" further forward and accomplished the same thing. That is how I machined our Grendel bolts, that way I manufactured a stronger bolt and was able to use a stronger extractor, the same ones Bill A calls "extreme duty" made and sold by Black Rifle Arms.
Yes I have seen all of those out of scale drawings LRRPFFTT has posted all over every forum of the internet. I'm not a democrat, I don't believe everything I see and hear, I worked as an engineer for 25 years.
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