View Full Version : I was shocked to see this about cars...
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-14-21, 14:47
Let me get this straight... the 2021 Porsche Taycan Turbo S doesn’t have a fuel burning engine? I assumed it was a hybrid electric/gas-turbo engine. But it’s all electric, but they call it a turbo? From Porsche, from the Germans - the engineering people. They couldn’t come up with a name for Uber fast/powerful propulsion systems? They just plaster ‘turbo’ on their? Isn’t that false advertising?
And this is after Ford calling a four door car with an electric motor a ‘Mustang’. What the fudge.
I’m not anti electric. Interesting tech. Just seems odd that they are doing a bait and switch with the marketing.
Colorado is trying to pass a law that larger companies have to have a plan and incentives for their employees to get out of their cars and into public transit..
Let me get this straight... the 2021 Porsche Taycan Turbo S doesn’t have a fuel burning engine? I assumed it was a hybrid electric/gas-turbo engine. But it’s all electric, but they call it a turbo? From Porsche, from the Germans - the engineering people. They couldn’t come up with a name for Uber fast/powerful propulsion systems? They just plaster ‘turbo’ on their? Isn’t that false advertising?
And this is after Ford calling a four door car with an electric motor a ‘Mustang’. What the fudge.
I’m not anti electric. Interesting tech. Just seems odd that they are doing a bait and switch with the marketing.
Colorado is trying to pass a law that larger companies have to have a plan and incentives for their employees to get out of their cars and into public transit..
Colorado has a lot of stupid plans. That's why I'm working on moving to NM.
If Porsche called it like it is, it'd be the Taycan Type S White-Privilege Virtue Signal Edition. But they'd probably get an angry tweat from Musk for infringing on his trademark.
I actually saw a four door mustang a few days ago and it was quite literally the gayest thing that I have ever seen and if you know my browser history then that is really saying something
Taycan Type S White-Privilege Virtue Signal Edition.
^^^:lol::lol::lol:
FWIW Does it come with a red button for "turbo" like the old arcade grand prix racer game?
I actually saw a four door mustang a few days ago and it was quite literally the gayest thing that I have ever seen and if you know my browser history then that is really saying something
No doubt!
So I haven't seen the 4-door mustang yet. It's a little bit of a prole car for around here. Electric for poors.
I'm a little salty about all this at the moment. Just a bit ago some WASPy asshole in an Audi eTron tried to run me down in the crosswalk. I'm sure him and his Tesla driving jerkoff buddies will have a good laugh about it at the golf course later.
No doubt!
So I haven't seen the 4-door mustang yet. It's a little bit of a prole car for around here. Electric for poors.
I'm a little salty about all this at the moment. Just a bit ago some WASPy asshole in an Audi eTron tried to run me down in the crosswalk. I'm sure him and his Tesla driving jerkoff buddies will have a good laugh about it at the golf course later.
Want me run him over in my lifted TowMax?
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Want me run him over in my lifted TowMax?
YES, please....That would make me feel much better. Thanks!
I actually saw a four door mustang a few days ago and it was quite literally the gayest thing that I have ever seen and if you know my browser history then that is really saying something
Don't you remember the Pontiac Aztec?
Don't you remember the Pontiac Aztec?
Ahh the Aztek. The Pacer of the 2000's
Business_Casual
05-14-21, 16:07
Where is all the generation capacity going to come from to charge these new fleets of electric cars? We’re already taxing the existing grid.
Don't you remember the Pontiac Aztec?
Oh why did you have to bring that up???
Don't you remember the Pontiac Aztec?Oh man, I forgot about those. Those things were AIDS on wheels. Looked like it was beaten with an ugly stick going down the assembly line.
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Where is all the generation capacity going to come from to charge these new fleets of electric cars? We’re already taxing the existing grid.
I think people will have to buy home gasoline generators. And hey, with fewer people buying gasoline, maybe the price comes down. [emoji23]
On a serious note, this in areas with taxed capacity are going to collapse the grids they have. They are either going to have to accept more coal, nuclear, or figure out how to power electric cars with their smug emissions.
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TheAlsatian
05-14-21, 16:45
I am intrigued by the electric Tacan, but I've shied away from Porsche SUVs. I do have a 911 though and I'm quite sure the Gods have decreed it will remain a gas powered car. I did buy my wife a Toyota hybrid SUV thingy and I'm quite impressed with it so far.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-14-21, 19:16
No doubt, it sounds like Porsche has made a beast of a EV car. Like I said, I'm not against them. The speed of them is amazing, and you aren't running a gas engine beyond physics to do it.
What I didn't know is that the EVs have issues with long time hard use. They don't go well on the track, lap after lap- the batteries get hot from discharge and the car protects itself. Seems to me that a cooling system fro the batteries would be a good idea. I think R&T can't get 3 good laps out of a Tesla before it goes in limp mode.
I've always been a jack-ass though. Was at a buddies house in the late 80s and his Dad's friend stops by in his brand new Red Corvette convertible. The guy leaves and the dad is like "Sweet car, eh?". All I said was 'Meh, automatic...".
I think people will have to buy home gasoline generators. And hey, with fewer people buying gasoline, maybe the price comes down. [emoji23]
On a serious note, this in areas with taxed capacity are going to collapse the grids they have. They are either going to have to accept more coal, nuclear, or figure out how to power electric cars with their smug emissions.
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Slave galley with stationary bicycle dynamo generators in lieu of oars.
Diamondback
05-14-21, 20:11
Slave galley with stationary bicycle dynamo generators in lieu of oars.
Don't give 'em ideas for ways to work us to death when they get Neues Auschwitz opened for business...
I actually liked the look of the Aztek! For it's time it was so different
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Or the capacity to produce that many batteries... and ultimately their waste?
I actually saw a four door mustang a few days ago and it was quite literally the gayest thing that I have ever seen and if you know my browser history then that is really saying something
My guess is we'll see more of this:
Names like Sentra, Civic, Camry, etc. Will be battery-powered Crossovers.
It's stupid. Especially when Ford still makes a Mustang car. Diminishes their own product.
Reminds me of the joke, "I drive a 'Vette!" "Yea, a Che-vette..."
"I bought a Mustang!" "Yea, a Mustang E... you dork."
I don't understand the "pseudo" tablet/ipad screens that they stick on the dash on new models.
just a scout
05-15-21, 09:06
Look at Toyota. Half of their vehicles are hybrids now. Volvo and Mercedes both say they’ll be all electric by 2025, except for maybe the military divisions. But that’s a push too. The new ISV from GM is supposed to go hybrid next upgrade then all electric by 2026.
It’ll all be powered by unicorn farts and rainbow sprinkles.
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Where is all the generation capacity going to come from to charge these new fleets of electric cars? We’re already taxing the existing grid.
Good question, and one that some people are taking seriously. There is an Austrian company that has a protoype of a Tesla Model 3 that has a simple but effective gas motor in the frunk. The idea is that undeveloped locales (think Africa and S America) cannot sufficently support EVs. This hybrid can suit the needs of most commuters, at a lower pricepoint than 100% EVs and with low emissions for the carbon fascists. Scale that into the domestic market here and maybe this EV mandate can be some what viable.
The comments in the link show just how myopic and clueless to reality these technorati are.
https://electrek.co/2020/01/06/tesla-model-3-hybrid/
Meanwhile VW/Audi has taken away their diesel cars for good, but they acknowledge that clean diesel from renewable sources are possible, and will be essential to maintain the logistics of modern society. In other words, clean diesel for commercial trucking and travel, EVs for short range commuting. I am having trouble finding the reference.
In the mean time, expect more green new deal feel good legislation like PV mandates on homes, without having the electrical infrastructure to support the propsed expansion of PV, pure ICE vehicles being banned and urbanization of suburbs to reduce the need for UBI proletariat to commute. While I fully support the idea of modernizing the grid and hardening it for little things like natural phenomena (maybe winter storms might take out power, IDK) and actual sabotage (Metcalf, Buckskin, et al), IMO politicians are pushing agenda without considering how to make it viable. The governor of NM comes to mind...fortunately my house in Albuquerque was able to support a PV array. It was close, though, since the gauge of cable from the ulitity side to my service panel was just adequate enough to support a service upgrade. Others in that area weren't so fortunate.
https://stopfossilfuels.org/electric-grid/shooting-transformers-disables-substations/
https://centerforsecuritypolicy.org/from-afghanistan-to-america-grid-sabotage-remains-a-threat/
https://www.krqe.com/news/investigations/live-new-mexico-homeowners-told-they-cant-connect-solar-systems/
BangBang77
05-15-21, 11:58
"Underdeveloped countries can't support EVs"
Hell, the US power grid can't even support EVs. We can't keep the power grid on to heat private homes during a snowstorm.
Anyone who buys into the whole EV society is seriously mentally deficient and lacks critical thinking skills. All they see is micro and lack the fundamental intellect required to delve into the macro.
I know which end of the spectrum they fall on the Dunning Krueger scale...
Windowlickers. The lot of em.
I forgot all about Azteks. For a minute they were the Lesbowagon Du Jour until the Kias took over.
My next car is gonna likely be Japanese
Hybrids make sense. (Don't have one)
100% plug-in? Sitting and plugged in for 1 hr for 30 miles or 8 hours for 300 mile range? Nope. Not gonna do it. ****. That.
Dude, the acceleration of these EVs is no joke. Many if not all are actually limited by chip in that regard to prevent accidents. They can't achieve the top speed of an engine, but an average EV can smoke just about any gas powered muscle car out there in terms of get up and go. When EVs are universal, you're going to be amazed at how quickly the intersections clear when the light turns green.
"Underdeveloped countries can't support EVs"
Hell, the US power grid can't even support EVs. We can't keep the power grid on to heat private homes during a snowstorm.
Anyone who buys into the whole EV society is seriously mentally deficient and lacks critical thinking skills. All they see is micro and lack the fundamental intellect required to delve into the macro.
I know which end of the spectrum they fall on the Dunning Krueger scale...
Windowlickers. The lot of em.
The singularity is near, my friend. You won't believe it, but it's gonna bite you in the ass nonetheless.
I actually saw a four door mustang a few days ago and it was quite literally the gayest thing that I have ever seen and if you know my browser history then that is really saying something
A few years ago the talk was "Why doesn't Chevy come up with a four door Camaro?" Now it's Ford with the Mustang. It's like the auto industry wants to cater to the market that has sons/grandsons of fathers/grandfathers that drove real muscle/sports cars. Except this "younger generations wants to feel like they're driving bad-ass cars but need the room in the back for the child seats, dog, cooler, and tablet screens in the back of the front seat to keep the kids satisfied. A new category of "Muscle Family Green" cars. :sad:
When I see a two door Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger, I can see the lineage of their ancestral DNA, it warms my heart. These four door abominations degrade and defame their badges. What's next, a four door Corvette? :nono:
Dude, the acceleration of these EVs is no joke. When EVs are universal, you're going to be amazed at how quickly the intersections clear when the light turns green.
Then they'll get broadsided by light-runners.
When there is an affordable one that only weighs 3k pounds and is nimble and fun to drive that can go 350 miles on a 10 minute charge I'll be interested.
Then they'll get broadsided by light-runners.
When there is an affordable one that only weighs 3k pounds and is nimble and fun to drive that can go 350 miles on a 10 minute charge I'll be interested.
I'm not even sure if that's physically possible. As a daily commuter though the current models have more than enough range.
vicious_cb
05-16-21, 04:17
The singularity is near, my friend. You won't believe it, but it's gonna bite you in the ass nonetheless.
I bet you want people to eat the bugs and live in the pod too right? Drive your smart EV car that can auto repo itself when you say bad things on the internet.
Once the ComDems pass the Green New Deal, errr I mean Infrastructure Bill, that will turn the rest of the country into CA you will have a hard time charging your EV during rolling blackouts. Or, afford to charge it when the cost of electricity goes up tenfold.
I bet you want people to eat the bugs and live in the pod too right? Drive your smart EV car that can auto repo itself when you say bad things on the internet.
Well my hope is that people learn to use technology responsibly, and start refusing to trade their liberty and privacy for free handouts. Not holding my breath though.
Once the ComDems pass the Green New Deal, errr I mean Infrastructure Bill, that will turn the rest of the country into CA you will have a hard time charging your EV during rolling blackouts. Or, afford to charge it when the cost of electricity goes up tenfold.
That's why we bought property outside city limits. The plan is to try and get as much off grid as possible. It's not just the government though. Tired of eating crap food filled with pesticides and hormones and antibiotics. It's getting just about to the point that nothing at the grocery store or restaurants is worth eating anymore.
vicious_cb
05-16-21, 15:48
Well my hope is that people learn to use technology responsibly, and start refusing to trade their liberty and privacy for free handouts. Not holding my breath though.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FjQmVFypWInKCc%2Fgiphy-downsized-large.gif&f=1&nofb=1
daddyusmaximus
05-16-21, 16:09
I actually saw a four door mustang a few days ago and it was quite literally the gayest thing that I have ever seen and if you know my browser history then that is really saying something
The 4 door Mustang, circa 2003... (AKA Mercury Marauder)
https://i.imgur.com/vTGFMS0.jpg
Hybrids make sense. (Don't have one)
100% plug-in? Sitting and plugged in for 1 hr for 30 miles or 8 hours for 300 mile range? Nope. Not gonna do it. ****. That.How far do you typically drive in one day? 300 miles for me was about a week. Easily rechargeable overnight. On a trip somewhere? Quick charge stations are all around. By the time you pull over to piss and get coffee you're charged
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FjQmVFypWInKCc%2Fgiphy-downsized-large.gif&f=1&nofb=1
So you wanna like be Amish or what then dude? Or just troll people on the internet about the evils of technology while you then proceed to post memes like a middle school chick? I mean seriously, what exactly is your position, because you don't seem to have one.
How far do you typically drive in one day? 300 miles for me was about a week. Easily rechargeable overnight. On a trip somewhere? Quick charge stations are all around. By the time you pull over to piss and get coffee you're charged
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Didn't you hear bro? Embracing new technology means you want to eat bugs and vote democrat. If you're not driving an F150 you're part of the problem.:rolleyes:
How far do you typically drive in one day? 300 miles for me was about a week. Easily rechargeable overnight. On a trip somewhere? Quick charge stations are all around. By the time you pull over to piss and get coffee you're charged
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I drive 200 miles two to three times a week. Otherwise I drive 60.
And then I go on trips which are 900-1600 miles. I don’t want to stop for 8 hours every 300 miles. It would take a month to get anywhere or do anything.
Maybe some day, but electric cars haven’t gotten there yet. Maybe for big city people, but not people in ritual areas or suburbs.
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Diamondback
05-16-21, 20:15
And not us who enjoy long distance road trips. :)
vicious_cb
05-16-21, 21:20
On a site where you'll probably find more SHTF types than average, I can't believe there are people who want to rely on the grid to charge their vehicles. :rolleyes:
A few years ago the talk was "Why doesn't Chevy come up with a four door Camaro?" Now it's Ford with the Mustang. It's like the auto industry wants to cater to the market that has sons/grandsons of fathers/grandfathers that drove real muscle/sports cars. Except this "younger generations wants to feel like they're driving bad-ass cars but need the room in the back for the child seats, dog, cooler, and tablet screens in the back of the front seat to keep the kids satisfied. A new category of "Muscle Family Green" cars. :sad:
When I see a two door Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger, I can see the lineage of their ancestral DNA, it warms my heart. These four door abominations degrade and defame their badges. What's next, a four door Corvette? :nono:
Dodge pulled it off with the Charger, as did Chrysler with the 300C. Hell, Dodge had a hot rod wagon before the Charger.
I really wanted a 4dr Hemi Charger when they were introduced, but couldn't bear the thought of the quality that would come with it.
Andy
vicious_cb
05-16-21, 23:46
So you wanna like be Amish or what then dude? Or just troll people on the internet about the evils of technology while you then proceed to post memes like a middle school chick? I mean seriously, what exactly is your position, because you don't seem to have one.
Internal combustion is amish now? I guess I better start growing my beard since Ill never buy a soulless EV that ties me to a grid thats prone to failure, packed with technology thats easily hacked or remotely bricked, for an false globalist agenda about protecting the environment.
Hows that for a position.
On a site where you'll probably find more SHTF types than average, I can't believe there are people who want to rely on the grid to charge their vehicles. :rolleyes:
How much gas do you have stocked up? Do you know what the shelf life of gas is when not stored properly?
At least with an EV you could charge it from your solar panels if you had to.
Not to mention, they don't break down like engines do. They require basically no maintenance. So if you had an off grid prepper wet dream kind of place with all solar and an EV, you would be good for like 20 years, vs. everyone else who would run out of gas in a month or less, or have said gas become useless after a year or two.
Internal combustion is amish now? I guess I better start growing my beard since Ill never buy a soulless EV that ties me to a grid thats prone to failure, packed with technology thats easily hacked or remotely bricked, for an false globalist agenda about protecting the environment.
Hows that for a position.
It's the same mentality bro. The Amish stopped progressing at an arbitrary point of technological advancement, and that's basically what you're advocating, for reasons I don't think you yourself even understand. Technology is neutral. It's your perceived use case for the tech that you don't like, and that's 100% about the political direction we're going, which isn't going to change even if we halted technological advancement.
As far as being tied to a grid that's prone to failure, ask the people in the northeast how that's working out for them. I imagine the people with EVs up there are laughing their asses off every time they drive by a gas station with a 12 hour line.
teufelhund1918
05-17-21, 06:01
Not really that into cars, but if these new things are electric muscle cars, do they have a chip or something to make the sound cool?
Not really that into cars, but if these new things are electric muscle cars, do they have a chip or something to make the sound cool?
Was riding with my brother in his Eco-boost F150 a few years back. At one point the exhaust note sounded really bizarre, didn't match how he was driving at all. I give him a "What the hell was that??" and he tells me that Ford pipes in the V8 sound on the V6s now.
Besides that, I was really impressed with the capabilities of that truck.
Many people could get by with the travel restrictions the EVs come with but if they look at what it really cost them to drive it over the cars useful life the math doesn't work. What is the EV worth when the batteries fall out of warranty? Probably next to nothing. Most who buy these things do it because it feels good thinking they are doing their part to save the world. They refuse to take into account the amount of fossil fuel it took to build it.
Many people could get by with the travel restrictions the EVs come with but if they look at what it really cost them to drive it over the cars useful life the math doesn't work. What is the EV worth when the batteries fall out of warranty? Probably next to nothing. Most who buy these things do it because it feels good thinking they are doing their part to save the world. They refuse to take into account the amount of fossil fuel it took to build it.
And how the power was produced to charge it…
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FromMyColdDeadHand
05-17-21, 09:39
Ineos is a plastics company. My thought was this was a test mule for auto part tech, but it seems like a real vehicle. Looks like a 110 series. Any one know if this is just vapor ware?
https://ineosgrenadier.com/en-us
Many people could get by with the travel restrictions the EVs come with but if they look at what it really cost them to drive it over the cars useful life the math doesn't work. What is the EV worth when the batteries fall out of warranty? Probably next to nothing. Most who buy these things do it because it feels good thinking they are doing their part to save the world. They refuse to take into account the amount of fossil fuel it took to build it.
You're right about the environmental aspect, but the cost benefit is getting reasonable. EV prices are getting down to comparable, and the mileage lifespans are increasing beyond gas powered. If you do have to replace a battery out of warranty, it's about 15k, so no more unreasonable than having to replace engines after several hundred thousand miles in a typical car. And you're not incurring all the maintenance costs like oil changes, belts, etc. Plus there's the convenience factor, reducing smog in densely populated cities, etc.
I had a big blind spot to electric because like you I was only looking at the implied ecological benefits, which are of course asinine. But there's a huge convenience factor, and also a reliability one, and potential cost savings.
I appreciate the ability of EVs to become the future of transportation. Unfortunately we are at the compact fluorescent stage of development. And just like CF, the .gov is gonna back a dead horse for as long as possible and stand in the way of whatever the LED of electric transportation turns out to be.
dwhitehorne
05-17-21, 15:38
I appreciate the ability of EVs to become the future of transportation. Unfortunately we are at the compact fluorescent stage of development. And just like CF, the .gov is gonna back a dead horse for as long as possible and stand in the way of whatever the LED of electric transportation turns out to be.
Yes I wonder this when I read about Toyota and Hydrogen fuel cells. David.
militarymoron
05-17-21, 16:24
Back to the original question - Porsche now uses 'turbo' as a label for 'faster/most expensive model' whether the car has a turbo or not. As for EV vs. ICE, both have their pros and cons as pointed out here, and the preference is personal. For a daily commuter, I don't think I'd mind a EV since I don't have a long commute and it'd be convenient to recharge the car each night, but for a weekend 'fun' car where I'd want to drive without worrying about charging, I lean more to regular ICE sports cars. I wouldn't mind a PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) like the SF90. I'm curious to see the new Corvette E-ray (hybrid) and how that turns out. While I love the sound of a good ICE, I guess it'd be easier to avoid attention if you could accelerate quickly silently. Kind of like Blue Thunder on 'whisper mode'.
It sorta sticks in my craw these ev's are so damn fast...having had 650hp traditional American front engine / rwd muscle & the rumble when she turns over would send tingles. Now you have instant torque to all four rubbers & you can't even hear it while it walks away from you. It doesn't have the romance but they will have the edge at the red light. I predict a lot of car crashes once all these sparky's hit the road.
It sorta sticks in my craw these ev's are so damn fast...having had 650hp traditional American front engine / rwd muscle & the rumble when she turns over would send tingles. Now you have instant torque to all four rubbers & you can't even hear it while it walks away from you. It doesn't have the romance but they will have the edge at the red light. I predict a lot of car crashes once all these sparky's hit the road.
People will definitely learn the hard way that they now need to heed the yellow light. It's going to make turning into traffic way easier though, as well as getting up to speed on ramps.
You guys are so cute. Thinking they are gonna let us drive.:haha::lol:
just a scout
05-17-21, 21:50
Ineos is a plastics company. My thought was this was a test mule for auto part tech, but it seems like a real vehicle. Looks like a 110 series. Any one know if this is just vapor ware?
https://ineosgrenadier.com/en-us
Looks a 110 and a G-Wagen met in the bar for drinks and wound up in the hotel room.
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It sorta sticks in my craw these ev's are so damn fast...having had 650hp traditional American front engine / rwd muscle & the rumble when she turns over would send tingles. Now you have instant torque to all four rubbers & you can't even hear it while it walks away from you. It doesn't have the romance but they will have the edge at the red light. I predict a lot of car crashes once all these sparky's hit the road.
They're all over the place here. Damn near a fad. Like every 3rd car. Most shopping centers now have at least one charging station. No unusual amount of accidents. Those who run lights will run lights and your avg car doesn't rumble or have 650hp. A Toyota Camry running a light is not loud. And your avg driver has their music up, and talking to or texting or web surfing so they're not paying attention to noise if they hear it at all.
It's the same argument as blood on the streets if you let people carry guns.
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vicious_cb
05-17-21, 23:55
Back to the original question - Porsche now uses 'turbo' as a label for 'faster/most expensive model' whether the car has a turbo or not. As for EV vs. ICE, both have their pros and cons as pointed out here, and the preference is personal. For a daily commuter, I don't think I'd mind a EV since I don't have a long commute and it'd be convenient to recharge the car each night, but for a weekend 'fun' car where I'd want to drive without worrying about charging, I lean more to regular ICE sports cars. I wouldn't mind a PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) like the SF90. I'm curious to see the new Corvette E-ray (hybrid) and how that turns out. While I love the sound of a good ICE, I guess it'd be easier to avoid attention if you could accelerate quickly silently. Kind of like Blue Thunder on 'whisper mode'.
Thats assuming the people have ability to buy a "weekend" car. As for personal preference if you enjoy cars at all then I wouldnt even consider an EV, you might as well be in a driving simulator in regards to feel and the enjoyment of driving. EVs have their pros, instant torque is cool and by all means buy one and help fund the colonization of Mars but Im sorry, all those silicon valley commies talking about their Teslas like a new iphone is not car culture to me.
Ive driven a hybrid for 10+ years, as cool as it is going ninja mode at slow speeds it gets old with constant start-stop jerky action. Not worth the trade off.
You guys are so cute. Thinking they are gonna let us drive.:haha::lol:
Nah they'll brainwash everyone into believing the environmentalism BS they'll give up cars on their own like good little sheep. Millennials have the lowest car ownership numbers out of all the age demos.
How much gas do you have stocked up? Do you know what the shelf life of gas is when not stored properly?
At least with an EV you could charge it from your solar panels if you had to.
Not to mention, they don't break down like engines do. They require basically no maintenance. So if you had an off grid prepper wet dream kind of place with all solar and an EV, you would be good for like 20 years, vs. everyone else who would run out of gas in a month or less, or have said gas become useless after a year or two.
You are acting like one of those guys who think they are smartest people in the room and that people are too stupid to see the awesomeness of EVs or know what fuel stabilizer is.
I have to wonder what your agenda is for shilling so hard for EVs.
Thats assuming the people have ability to buy a "weekend" car. As for personal preference if you enjoy cars at all then I wouldnt even consider an EV, you might as well be in a driving simulator in regards to feel and the enjoyment of driving. EVs have their pros, instant torque is cool and by all means buy one and help fund the colonization of Mars but Im sorry, all those silicon valley commies talking about their Teslas like a new iphone is not car culture to me.
Ive driven a hybrid for 10+ years, as cool as it is going ninja mode at slow speeds it gets old with constant start-stop jerky action. Not worth the trade off.
Nah they'll brainwash everyone into believing the environmentalism BS they'll give up cars on their own like good little sheep. Millennials have the lowest car ownership numbers out of all the age demos.
You are acting like one of those guys who think they are smartest people in the room and that people are too stupid to see the awesomeness of EVs or know what fuel stabilizer is.
I have to wonder what your agenda is for shilling so hard for EVs.
You obviously know nothing about them, other than the fact that you don't like them on an emotional level because you associate them with a leftist agenda. Just because you don't like them and want to revert to some retrogressive state, that doesn't make me a know it all, much less a shill.
The fact of the matter is you're about to wake up in a world that you hardly recognize, whether you like it or not. Lashing out at technology won't change that, and your attitude in that regard will only harden the hearts of people who might otherwise be receptive to hearing sound arguments about the ethics of how that technology will be used. It's like the internet connection in your house. You can use it to learn new skills and communicate with people, or you can use it to watch porn and troll people on 4chan. The more people who use it for the former, the better our society will be.
EVs will eventually, as a neutral technology, represent a massive benefit to our society. They're going to dramatically lower the cost of transportation, and along with driverless technology, save lives and make people way more productive. Can that be coopted by an authoritarian government and used for evil? Well of course it can, but only if we let it.
Diamondback
05-18-21, 02:30
The other problem with EV's is, how do you propose to generate the terawatts or petawatts of new power capacity the grid is gonna need to feed 'em all? Unicorn-farts-and-pixie-dust "green energy" can't deliver the required energy and reliability, and consumes more in fabrication than it delivers in production. MODERNIZED nuclear with molten-salt or thorium reactors would do the job, but that requires political leadership and a public who can muster the brainpower deposited in the john with my average Bowl Blaster after a Bad Day at the Mongolian Buffet...
You obviously know nothing about them, other than the fact that you don't like them on an emotional level because you associate them with a leftist agenda. Just because you don't like them and want to revert to some retrogressive state, that doesn't make me a know it all, much less a shill.
The fact of the matter is you're about to wake up in a world that you hardly recognize, whether you like it or not. Lashing out at technology won't change that, and your attitude in that regard will only harden the hearts of people who might otherwise be receptive to hearing sound arguments about the ethics of how that technology will be used. It's like the internet connection in your house. You can use it to learn new skills and communicate with people, or you can use it to watch porn and troll people on 4chan. The more people who use it for the former, the better our society will be.
EVs will eventually, as a neutral technology, represent a massive benefit to our society. They're going to dramatically lower the cost of transportation, and along with driverless technology, save lives and make people way more productive. Can that be coopted by an authoritarian government and used for evil? Well of course it can, but only if we let it.
If EVs are the future, why aren’t we upgrading our ability to generate electricity? Our grid needs tons of work, especially in California where these cars will likely be widely accepted. As much as talked about gasoline storage in this thread, I can store gasoline much easier than I can store electricity.
I foresee many situations where people would be cranking up their gasoline generators to charge their cars because they have to get to work.
I hope the technology does improve to become viable for those other than the short-range commuters. I hope we do take the shortcomings of our electrical grid and power generation seriously and come up with viable power generation methods cheaper and cleaner than coal. I also hope we drop the stigma of nuclear energy.
And for the love of god, $15k for every five years for batteries is insanity. While engine maintenance isn’t going to be a thing, things like bearings, belts, tires, etc are still going to cost money. The higher buy-in price means there probably isn’t any cost of ownership savings to EVs….in fact, it’s probably more expensive to own. Oh, and you have to pay for that electricity which is just going to get higher.
Our 2014 Mazda 6 has 180k on. We’ve so replaced the belt twice, one bearing, and tires three times. We were due for a battery, decided to hold off but the original is holding out for now. And it gets 40 mpg highway.
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They're all over the place here.
not the 0-60 in under 3 second versions...once they start craning those out to the masses, you better look out.
not the 0-60 in under 3 second versions...once they start craning those out to the masses, you better look out.I don't know if we're talking about the same thing but EVs like Teslas are 0-60 in under 3 seconds. They've been out for years and years. There's even a model with "Ludicrous mode" that does 0-60 in 2.5. It's been out since like 2016
Besides what's the difference? If 0-6 is 4 seconds everything is so much safer? I'm not sure how you think they work but touching the gas pedal doesn't instantly put you at 60 ....or whatever. You can drive it like any other car.
As for being common. All over the place here. Drive around here and about every 3rd car is a Tesla. Pull up to a Trader Joe's or Whole Foods or a nice restaurant and the parking lot may as well be a Tesla dealership. And kids drive them too. Plenty of families here who use Tesla as a every day family car which the kids use too.
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The national grid that goes out in Hot or Cold weather is going to support a conversion to everyone driving electric cars how exactly? Everyone going to have a personal Unicorn Fart Factory in their own back yard? It's the height of F'ing stupidity and so easily seen as a problem and yet, here we go....
hotrodder636
05-18-21, 11:20
I want to like the evolution of the EV. I do see how there is a carbon footprint reduction after some time. I read an article from Forbes IIRC, that went through cost comparison at various intervals and showed that after so many miles (don’t remember how many) the EV becomes more carbon friendly but it isn’t immediate.
The problems I see with mass adoption is battery production, battery/waste handling and the power grid. The grid has been discussed and as great as renewables are, they do not provide base load—right now the only carbon-free tech we have that does that is Nuclear. Next Gen nuclear is where we need to be putting research money into. What to do with dead batteries seems like an environmental nightmare when these things become mainstream.
I don't know if we're talking about the same thing but EVs like Teslas are 0-60 in under 3 seconds. They've been out for years and years. There's even a model with "Ludicrous mode" that does 0-60 in 2.5. It's been out since like 2016
Besides what's the difference? If 0-6 is 4 seconds everything is so much safer? I'm not sure how you think they work but touching the gas pedal doesn't instantly put you at 60 ....or whatever. You can drive it like any other car.
As for being common. All over the place here. Drive around here and about every 3rd car is a Tesla. Pull up to a Trader Joe's or Whole Foods or a nice restaurant and the parking lot may as well be a Tesla dealership. And kids drive them too. Plenty of families here who use Tesla as a every day family car which the kids use too.
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My point is the discussed performance is not the norm as of yet & no I do not believe every 3rd car in your area does 0-60 in under 3 seconds...I would be saying the same thing if gassers / diesels or nuclear fueled vehicles had Hellcat / 911 turbo / ZL1 / AMG type abilities. You start handing out that sort acceleration to teenagers & others who do not have the respect the vehicle deserves??
I personally don't see current speed / performance junkies looking at the tesla / ev's for their fix, but it's coming & unavoidable...same way I don't see most tesla buyers buying the vehicle for it's acceleration abilities. It's simply evolving & something to watch as the companies want to one up each other.
If EVs are the future, why aren’t we upgrading our ability to generate electricity? Our grid needs tons of work, especially in California where these cars will likely be widely accepted. As much as talked about gasoline storage in this thread, I can store gasoline much easier than I can store electricity.
I foresee many situations where people would be cranking up their gasoline generators to charge their cars because they have to get to work.
I hope the technology does improve to become viable for those other than the short-range commuters. I hope we do take the shortcomings of our electrical grid and power generation seriously and come up with viable power generation methods cheaper and cleaner than coal. I also hope we drop the stigma of nuclear energy.
And for the love of god, $15k for every five years for batteries is insanity. While engine maintenance isn’t going to be a thing, things like bearings, belts, tires, etc are still going to cost money. The higher buy-in price means there probably isn’t any cost of ownership savings to EVs….in fact, it’s probably more expensive to own. Oh, and you have to pay for that electricity which is just going to get higher.
Our 2014 Mazda 6 has 180k on. We’ve so replaced the belt twice, one bearing, and tires three times. We were due for a battery, decided to hold off but the original is holding out for now. And it gets 40 mpg highway.
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The government is broke, so don't look to them to solve our infrastructure problems. Going forward, whatever the private sector doesn't handle won't get handled. This decade is probably going to be defined by a collapse of government services and the subsequent rise of corporate oligarchs.
militarymoron
05-18-21, 18:02
I saw this video and thought it was relevant to the topic at hand:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwevvreoNjE
vicious_cb
05-19-21, 19:17
I foresee many situations where people would be cranking up their gasoline generators to charge their cars because they have to get to work.
I cant wait for the future.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fpics.me.me%2Fa-gas-powered-van-towing-a-diesel-generator-charging-an-60387184.png&f=1&nofb=1
I cant wait for the future.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fpics.me.me%2Fa-gas-powered-van-towing-a-diesel-generator-charging-an-60387184.png&f=1&nofb=1
In the early days of internal combustion engines, horses had to be used to tow the cars home when they would break down, or bring them fuel if they ran out unexpectedly. People got a good laugh, and then about ten years later they were left feeling really stupid. Given the acceleration of technological advance, you won't have to wait as long as they did.
My point is the discussed performance is not the norm as of yet & no I do not believe every 3rd car in your area does 0-60 in under 3 seconds...I would be saying the same thing if gassers / diesels or nuclear fueled vehicles had Hellcat / 911 turbo / ZL1 / AMG type abilities. You start handing out that sort acceleration to teenagers & others who do not have the respect the vehicle deserves??
I personally don't see current speed / performance junkies looking at the tesla / ev's for their fix, but it's coming & unavoidable...same way I don't see most tesla buyers buying the vehicle for it's acceleration abilities. It's simply evolving & something to watch as the companies want to one up each other.
LoL ok whatever you say.
No everyone I know who has one has it because it's is/was different/luxury/expensive.
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In the early days of internal combustion engines, horses had to be used to tow the cars home when they would break down, or bring them fuel if they ran out unexpectedly. People got a good laugh, and then about ten years later they were left feeling really stupid. Given the acceleration of technological advance, you won't have to wait as long as they did.
Automobiles had rather significant performance and utility benefits over horses/donkeys/mules/oxen. EVs do not have significant benefits over internal combustion engines.
Andy
Automobiles had rather significant performance and utility benefits over horses/donkeys/mules/oxen. EVs do not have significant benefits over internal combustion engines.
Andy
You've obviously never lived in large cities like New York. I have, and the smog problem is very real. It stinks, and it's bad for people's health. Your statement is like saying a nuclear sub has no benefits over diesel. But the benefits are myriad.
Just the increased acceleration on its own is a tangible enough benefit to justify higher costs. Then there's the reliability and virtually no required maintenance over the lifespan of the vehicle.
But costs won't be higher for long. With certain models, the cost of ownership is already getting very close to comparable cars. Costs are going to go down dramatically though, to the point where driving an EV will be so much cheaper no one will be able to afford not to.
Until batteries are improved and are much cheaper, the cost of ownership will remain significantly higher. At this point it’s not that the cars aren’t good, it’s that logistically and financially, they are a burden to people. The majority of that burden is that battery technology still sucks.
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You've obviously never lived in large cities like New York. I have, and the smog problem is very real. It stinks, and it's bad for people's health. Your statement is like saying a nuclear sub has no benefits over diesel. But the benefits are myriad.
Just the increased acceleration on its own is a tangible enough benefit to justify higher costs. Then there's the reliability and virtually no required maintenance over the lifespan of the vehicle.
But costs won't be higher for long. With certain models, the cost of ownership is already getting very close to comparable cars. Costs are going to go down dramatically though, to the point where driving an EV will be so much cheaper no one will be able to afford not to.
I have lived in cities larger than New York.
An EV is an evolutionary development, internal combustion engines revolutionized the way human beings live.
Not everyone lives in cities. I could certainly make use of an EV, but it would need to be in the $10,000 range to be worth it because I still need a vehicle that can travel 1200 miles in a 24 hour period.
We do not have batteries made from cheap, common materials using environmentally clean processes. A 10000 fold increase in EVs is also nowhere near sustainable by our power grid.
I have lived in cities larger than New York.
An EV is an evolutionary development, internal combustion engines revolutionized the way human beings live.
Not everyone lives in cities. I could certainly make use of an EV, but it would need to be in the $10,000 range to be worth it because I still need a vehicle that can travel 1200 miles in a 24 hour period.
We do not have batteries made from cheap, common materials using environmentally clean processes. A 10000 fold increase in EVs is also nowhere near sustainable by our power grid.
There's not going to be much benefit to owning a personal vehicle in the near future. Driverless EVs will basically turn the highways into public transportation. When the battery runs out after 600 miles, it will just pull over at a rest stop, giving you a chance to go pee and stretch your legs before another one pulls up to take you the rest of the way. And you get to sleep or read a book the whole way.
There's not going to be much benefit to owning a personal vehicle in the near future. Driverless EVs will basically turn the highways into public transportation. When the battery runs out after 600 miles, it will just pull over at a rest stop, giving you a chance to go pee and stretch your legs before another one pulls up to take you the rest of the way. And you get to sleep or read a book the whole way.
If I ever see so much as one F'ing "Johnnie Cab" imma lose my shit.
Diamondback
05-20-21, 19:28
There's not going to be much benefit to owning a personal vehicle in the near future. Driverless EVs will basically turn the highways into public transportation. When the battery runs out after 600 miles, it will just pull over at a rest stop, giving you a chance to go pee and stretch your legs before another one pulls up to take you the rest of the way. And you get to sleep or read a book the whole way.
Then you have the problem of unloading and reloading luggage...
Then you have the problem of unloading and reloading luggage...
As in taking a suitcase out of the trunk and putting it in the trunk of the car parked next to it??? You must live a truly charmed life if that qualifies as a problem in your world.
ETA: Not only that, but EVs as of today have like a 500 mile range, meaning if you drove from one side of the country to the other you might have to transfer luggage five times. Whereas if you're driving your personal vehicle, you would have to stop to sleep at least three times. Obviously transferring the luggage is cheaper and easier, and allows you to get there way faster if you were in a hurry and didn't take any detours to see the sights.
Or imagine this...
On this hypothetical cross country road trip, you sleep at night in the car and then wake up in a new place in the morning. The car drops you off at a rest stop, where you put your luggage in a locker, and then you're free to explore the city and see the sights all day. Then when you get sleepy you call a new car, and then sleep while it's taking you to your next stop. Then five days later you've arrived at your destination in the same time it would have taken you to drive yourself, but you got to do cool stuff on the way and didn't have to spend a grand on hotels. And instead of driving, you were sleeping, eating, and watching TV.
Diamondback
05-20-21, 20:32
As in taking a suitcase out of the trunk and putting it in the trunk of the car parked next to it??? You must live a truly charmed life if that qualifies as a problem in your world.
Say that when you're the one schlub who has to deal with the whole family's baggage, most of them overpackers, and all the tchotchkes and trinkets and baubles accumulated along the trip.
And don't forget the people who build these things say "we could program your self driving car to KILL you in the name of preventing a bigger accident, and that's not a bug but a FEATURE!"
Enjoy your Flavoraid there if that's what you're into, speaking for myself I'll stick to the tried and true Old Reliable.
vicious_cb
05-20-21, 20:49
There's not going to be much benefit to owning a personal vehicle in the near future. Driverless EVs will basically turn the highways into public transportation. When the battery runs out after 600 miles, it will just pull over at a rest stop, giving you a chance to go pee and stretch your legs before another one pulls up to take you the rest of the way. And you get to sleep or read a book the whole way.
You'll own nothing and you'll be happy.
Didn't you hear bro? Embracing new technology means you want to eat bugs and vote democrat. If you're not driving an F150 you're part of the problem.:rolleyes:
Maybe try less to sound like a globalist and Ill stop mocking your EV shilling.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.goyimtv.tv%2Ff_data%2Fdata_userfiles%2Fuser_media%2F2780355366%2Ft%2F2112789850%2F0.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
kaiservontexas
05-20-21, 20:59
I will keep my Jeep.
Say that when you're the one schlub who has to deal with the whole family's baggage, most of them overpackers, and all the tchotchkes and trinkets and baubles accumulated along the trip.
And don't forget the people who build these things say "we could program your self driving car to KILL you in the name of preventing a bigger accident, and that's not a bug but a FEATURE!"
Enjoy your Flavoraid there if that's what you're into, speaking for myself I'll stick to the tried and true Old Reliable.
So I guess you would refuse to get on a train or airplane? Because that's also a feature there, too. Personally I would rather take my chances with AI than share the highway with tens of thousands of people who are buzzed, high, and texting.
You'll own nothing and you'll be happy.
Maybe try less to sound like a globalist shill and Ill stop mocking your EV shilling.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.goyimtv.tv%2Ff_data%2Fdata_userfiles%2Fuser_media%2F2780355366%2Ft%2F2112789850%2F0.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
You're totally right man. Anyone who flies commercial is a globalist shill because they don't own their own airplane. I can't believe I never realized that before. Hear that everyone? If you're not rich enough to buy your own jet and you fly commercial you're part of the problem, ya commie bastard!
Say that when you're the one schlub who has to deal with the whole family's baggage, most of them overpackers, and all the tchotchkes and trinkets and baubles accumulated along the trip.
.
Let's be honest that's pretty much irrelevant to the type of car unless you have a family of 10 and each packs 3+ bags. When we went on vacation as a kid my dad did the lifting then when I get to be around 16 he made me do it. We have a family of 4 and moving 4-6 suitcases wasn't that big a deal.
I don't know how long these batteries last but a guy I know goes between Philadelphia and Miami (20+ hour drive) on his Tesla without issues. He says there's enough charging stations that it doesn't take him that much longer considering that he gets food and uses the bathroom and just stretches his legs in the meantime.
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robbins290
05-21-21, 13:22
I have ZERO interest in a EV. I go from Maine to NC dozens of times a year. 14 1/2 hours one way, None stop. No way in hell would i make that trip longer by having to stop and charge every 300 miles.
vicious_cb
05-21-21, 15:48
I have ZERO interest in a EV. I go from Maine to NC dozens of times a year. 14 1/2 hours one way, None stop. No way in hell would i make that trip longer by having to stop and charge every 300 miles.
And its not even free anymore
Tesla and Free Supercharging
For the first few years of the Model S and Model X programs, unlimited free Supercharging has been one of the top perks that Tesla was offering to its customers.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk said that the perk wasn’t sustainable and he even admitted that they should have ended the incentive earlier:
“Sorry, it’s not really sustainable at volume production and doesn’t incentivize optimal behavior. We probably should have ended this earlier.”
After that, Tesla still brought back free Supercharging as an incentive to sell inventory cars and even the Model 3 during a few periods in 2018.
For a while, ‘Free Unlimited Supercharging’ was also linked to Tesla’s owner referral program, but the automaker has since restructured the program.
Lately, the only way to buy a Tesla with free Supercharging was to buy a used car from Tesla, but the automaker later brought back the perk for new Model S and Model X vehicles, which have seen major downturns in demand over the last few years.
https://electrek.co/2020/05/27/tesla-removes-free-supercharging-model-s-x/
just a scout
05-21-21, 16:47
If I ever see so much as one F'ing "Johnnie Cab" imma lose my shit.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210521/936e76ba967fd884a01e94e57b51ec38.jpg
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Coal Dragger
05-21-21, 17:00
There's not going to be much benefit to owning a personal vehicle in the near future. Driverless EVs will basically turn the highways into public transportation. When the battery runs out after 600 miles, it will just pull over at a rest stop, giving you a chance to go pee and stretch your legs before another one pulls up to take you the rest of the way. And you get to sleep or read a book the whole way.
I don’t sleep well in cars so that would just be miserable, and I’d get a room somewhere anyway.
You might not have noticed the other enormous problem with going strictly EV for personal transportation, privately owned or not, is the lack of generating capacity in the country or any other country to support it.
Business_Casual
05-21-21, 17:05
There's not going to be much benefit to owning a personal vehicle in the near future. Driverless EVs will basically turn the highways into public transportation. When the battery runs out after 600 miles, it will just pull over at a rest stop, giving you a chance to go pee and stretch your legs before another one pulls up to take you the rest of the way. And you get to sleep or read a book the whole way.
No. They will allocate slots and you won’t be getting one right away. I think resource distribution will be dramatically different once there is one group controlling them. The Soviet Union had forced shortages on purpose as a means of control, for instance.
As mentioned above, there is not nearly enough generation capacity either.
I don’t sleep well in cars so that would just be miserable, and I’d get a room somewhere anyway.
You might not have noticed the other enormous problem with going strictly EV for personal transportation, privately owned or not, is the lack of generating capacity in the country or any other country to support it.
That's why Tesla is building their own grid. The dude may be a straight up Bond villain, but at least he or someone at his company actually has vision.
0-60 in 1.1 seconds...
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/rocket-powered-flying-tesla-roadster-health
No. They will allocate slots and you won’t be getting one right away. I think resource distribution will be dramatically different once there is one group controlling them. The Soviet Union had forced shortages on purpose as a means of control, for instance.
As mentioned above, there is not nearly enough generation capacity either.
Our friends in California have been living this realty for, um, quite some time. Brownouts, rolling blackouts, etc. almost as if the state planners had an agenda.
Coal Dragger
05-21-21, 22:09
That's why Tesla is building their own grid. The dude may be a straight up Bond villain, but at least he or someone at his company actually has vision.
So Tesla is building generating plants? How many? How many MW per unit? They’re going to need a lot of them.
So, reading this whole thread, I see that awesome acceleration, and sh!tty sleeping in a car for a week makes up for the maintenance free car that needs 15k in batteries every 5yrs (wtf actually believes this is cheaper than a gas engine car????), will cost tons in electrical bills, and time, to keep on the road.......
When the grid happens to be working.........
I'll keep my 30yr old suv, as old as it is, i've had it almost 20yrs, and I know i've not come near 15k in repairs.
So, reading this whole thread, I see that awesome acceleration, and sh!tty sleeping in a car for a week makes up for the maintenance free car that needs 15k in batteries every 5yrs (wtf actually believes this is cheaper than a gas engine car????), will cost tons in electrical bills, and time, to keep on the road.......
When the grid happens to be working.........
I'll keep my 30yr old suv, as old as it is, i've had it almost 20yrs, and I know i've not come near 15k in repairs.
That's a lot of exaggeration.
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0-60 in 1.1 seconds...
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/rocket-powered-flying-tesla-roadster-health
I read that earlier. 1.1 seconds is crazy. I can’t wait to see this “rocket propulsion” work.
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Business_Casual
05-22-21, 05:49
So, reading this whole thread, I see that awesome acceleration, and sh!tty sleeping in a car for a week makes up for the maintenance free car that needs 15k in batteries every 5yrs (wtf actually believes this is cheaper than a gas engine car????), will cost tons in electrical bills, and time, to keep on the road.......
When the grid happens to be working.........
I'll keep my 30yr old suv, as old as it is, i've had it almost 20yrs, and I know i've not come near 15k in repairs.
I think they’ll tax us out of ICE cars. Gas tax, license and registration taxes, the plan is probably already online and published...
I think they’ll tax us out of ICE cars. Gas tax, license and registration taxes, the plan is probably already online and published...
Yes, and to force people out of rural areas and to use mass transit.
That's a lot of exaggeration.
Sent from my moto z4 using TapatalkIs it?
No one argued the mentioned 15k battery pack every 5yrs. I'm pretty sure no one spends 15k maintaining any vehicle in a 5yr span, unless you blow multiple trans/engines. Plus, electrics will still need the normal tires/brakes, maybe wheel bearings.
Awesome acceleration seems to be a big selling point.
Sleeping in car seats is sh!tty, period. You want a family mutiny, have them spend their days gallavanting, while they sleep in car seats for a week.
The commies in charge are already increasing prices, electric will go up soon enough.
The grid is under maintained, and overloaded, so tons of chargers??? California been having brownouts because of it now (not the chargers, just in general)?
Unless most of this thread has been bs, not seeing that much exaggeration. Yes, there's definitely sarcasm....
But then, another recent point is also true: push every one into the urban areas, where they can be watched, and controlled.
Is it?
No one argued the mentioned 15k battery pack every 5yrs. I'm pretty sure no one spends 15k maintaining any vehicle in a 5yr span, unless you blow multiple trans/engines. Plus, electrics will still need the normal tires/brakes, maybe wheel bearings.
Awesome acceleration seems to be a big selling point.
Sleeping in car seats is sh!tty, period. You want a family mutiny, have them spend their days gallavanting, while they sleep in car seats for a week.
The commies in charge are already increasing prices, electric will go up soon enough.
The grid is under maintained, and overloaded, so tons of chargers??? California been having brownouts because of it now (not the chargers, just in general)?
Unless most of this thread has been bs, not seeing that much exaggeration. Yes, there's definitely sarcasm....
But then, another recent point is also true: push every one into the urban areas, where they can be watched, and controlled.
Yes it is. What manufacturer expects you to spend $15k out of pocket within the first 5 years.
So just a quick search.....and some of these results a a few years old but... The battery warranty is 8 years/50k miles. The battery has a minimum life span of about 1500 charge cycles, which translates to about 300,000 - 500,000 k miles depending on model.
From a june 2020 article. "With an update to its warranty earlier this year, Tesla now covers all battery capacity degradation in all its vehicles with a limit of 70% capacity for up to 8 years or 100,000 to 150,000 miles depending on the model."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/amp/
Sleeping in the car is you problem not a car problem. Neither is "the grid". The assumption is that suddenly every person, all at once in the country has a Tesla
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Yes it is. What manufacturer expects you to spend $15k out of pocket within the first 5 years.
So just a quick search.....and some of these results a a few years old but... The battery warranty is 8 years/50k miles. The battery has a minimum life span of about 1500 charge cycles, which translates to about 300,000 - 500,000 k miles depending on model.
From a june 2020 article. "With an update to its warranty earlier this year, Tesla now covers all battery capacity degradation in all its vehicles with a limit of 70% capacity for up to 8 years or 100,000 to 150,000 miles depending on the model."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/amp/
Sleeping in the car is you problem not a car problem. Neither is "the grid". The assumption is that suddenly every person, all at once in the country has a Tesla
Sent from my moto z4 using TapatalkOK, well, when the 5yr thing was brought up, no one contested it. While 300k-500k miles is good, 8yrs and 50k miles really isn't a lot better than 5yrs. It's still a lot of money outlay, in a relatively short time.
If you sleep well in the seat of a car, i'm glad for you. Everybody I know, that has mentioned it, and myself, do not. So, really, sounds like the assumption is also there that anybody can sleep well in a car, which is also wrong.
No, not everyone can go get a tesla at once, I realize that.
Is it?
No one argued the mentioned 15k battery pack every 5yrs. I'm pretty sure no one spends 15k maintaining any vehicle in a 5yr span, unless you blow multiple trans/engines. Plus, electrics will still need the normal tires/brakes, maybe wheel bearings.
Awesome acceleration seems to be a big selling point.
Sleeping in car seats is sh!tty, period. You want a family mutiny, have them spend their days gallavanting, while they sleep in car seats for a week.
The commies in charge are already increasing prices, electric will go up soon enough.
The grid is under maintained, and overloaded, so tons of chargers??? California been having brownouts because of it now (not the chargers, just in general)?
Unless most of this thread has been bs, not seeing that much exaggeration. Yes, there's definitely sarcasm....
But then, another recent point is also true: push every one into the urban areas, where they can be watched, and controlled.
Again, these are political problems, not in any way connected to emerging tech. If you let a technocommie government take over it is what it is, and halting the advancement of technology won't change that. You'll still have a communist government, just with shittier technology.
If you sleep well in the seat of a car, i'm glad for you. Everybody I know, that has mentioned it, and myself, do not. So, really, sounds like the assumption is also there that anybody can sleep well in a car, which is also wrong.
No, not everyone can go get a tesla at once, I realize that.
Sleeping in a car is irrelevant. How often do you do it? Is it part of your buying process? Does sleeping factor into buying a specific brand or model?
Most of my driving life I've had 2 door coups or sub compacts and I don't remember ever thinking about sleeping as part of why I purchased the car. Not once. If it happens it's more of an inconvenient circumstance. And if thats what you do then it's just unique to you based on your specific lifestyle
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OK, well, when the 5yr thing was brought up, no one contested it. While 300k-500k miles is good, 8yrs and 50k miles really isn't a lot better than 5yrs. It's still a lot of money outlay, in a relatively short time.
If you sleep well in the seat of a car, i'm glad for you. Everybody I know, that has mentioned it, and myself, do not. So, really, sounds like the assumption is also there that anybody can sleep well in a car, which is also wrong.
No, not everyone can go get a tesla at once, I realize that.
Dude, when cars are self driving you won't need normal seats. Especially when driving becomes as safe as plane or train travel, seats will be designed for comfort instead of crash test dummies. It will be like a first class seat where it folds down into a bed. You'll sleep like a baby.
As far as the battery life, just look how far they've already come, and remember that technology doubles. The next generation will be double the range for half the cost.
Do you remember when the biggest thumb drive you could get was 1GB, and they cost $50, which was a lot more money back then. Or remember the first MP3 players? They held like 10 songs, sounded like garbage, and cost like three hundred dollars. Or the first iphone. It was worse than 56k, and they cost a fortune.
If EVs are borderline competitive with ICEs right now, you know almost for certain that in a few short years they're going to be way, way better in almost every way.
sandsunsurf
05-22-21, 10:54
A lot of posts I want to reply to here, but I’ll just quickly mention a few things.
Cost of electricity for an EV is WAY lower than gasoline. My friends in my area that have EVs say they barely notice a difference in their power bills. One commutes 40 miles each way Mon-Fri and estimates that his bill went up maybe $30 a month. The other says that with the EV discount he gets by promising not to charge between 1pm and 6pm during the summer, that his power bill is now cheaper.
The maintenance is super low. Also, read above for battery longevity. Way cheaper than ICE.
They are fun as heII to drive.
My area has a reliable power grid, I have zero worries.
Tesla isn’t building power plants, but they are building solar walls etc..
Fisker Ocean has a solar panel roof to supplement plug in.
I, too, was EV ignorant prior to mid-2020 and questioned the lithium mining costs, the coal and NG power plants being polluters, etc. do some research and you’ll likely conclude like Arik and Oakie that EV has a legit future that is really a win win win. (Fun to drive, cheaper to own, more environmentally friendly)
They may have a future, but the time isn’t now, especially for small-town or rural Americans. Give it ten or twenty years.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
05-22-21, 11:44
I don’t sleep well in cars so that would just be miserable, and I’d get a room somewhere anyway.
You might not have noticed the other enormous problem with going strictly EV for personal transportation, privately owned or not, is the lack of generating capacity in the country or any other country to support it.
Electricity demand is largely driven by HVAC use, which peaks in the afternoon. Lots of capacity overnight where you can charge your car, or charge your home battery.
A lot of posts I want to reply to here, but I’ll just quickly mention a few things.
Cost of electricity for an EV is WAY lower than gasoline. My friends in my area that have EVs say they barely notice a difference in their power bills. One commutes 40 miles each way Mon-Fri and estimates that his bill went up maybe $30 a month. The other says that with the EV discount he gets by promising not to charge between 1pm and 6pm during the summer, that his power bill is now cheaper.
The maintenance is super low. Also, read above for battery longevity. Way cheaper than ICE.
They are fun as heII to drive.
My area has a reliable power grid, I have zero worries.
Tesla isn’t building power plants, but they are building solar walls etc..
Fisker Ocean has a solar panel roof to supplement plug in.
I, too, was EV ignorant prior to mid-2020 and questioned the lithium mining costs, the coal and NG power plants being polluters, etc. do some research and you’ll likely conclude like Arik and Oakie that EV has a legit future that is really a win win win. (Fun to drive, cheaper to own, more environmentally friendly)
EVs are getting better and better. Considering the short distance people drive on most days, an EV makes sense. Got a long trip? How about rent a vehicle built for it. I roll in an Escalade day after day because my wife insists that we have a three row car, that is capable of of a foot of snow, and 700miles/day miles trip with 4 people and bags. All while I struggle day-to-day to park the beast. I’d much rather drive something smaller and rent one of those traveling vans- something actually made for the trips.
EV’s aren’t perfect, but better. Fast off the line, but not the best to rob a bank if you are going to be in a sustained high-speed chase. I’m really interested in the next gen solid state batteries. Maybe even a bush plane, or even a seaplane, that you can recharge off-airport and just bum around the Rockies or Minnesota fishing and eating.
So, are you now going to tell me they have ev trucks, that can haul a load, and are 4wd?
So, are you now going to tell me they have ev trucks, that can haul a load, and are 4wd?
Didn’t they release the F-150 Lightning EV just two days ago that has a 10,000 lb tow capacity?
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Didn’t they release the F-150 Lightning EV just two days ago that has a 10,000 lb tow capacity?
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIdk, since i'm not watching to see what's new.
4wd?
sandsunsurf
05-22-21, 14:55
Idk, since i'm not watching to see what's new.
4wd?
Yes. The Ford has amazing towing and 4wd capabilities. Also check out the Rivian truck, it looks even better off-road, but I think the Ford is the one to beat and it will likely be the first one making actual deliveries to normies like me. The cybertruck is ugly AF, but it also has huge performance.
ETA: Rivian video https://youtu.be/cmdsKHTRViA
Ford video https://youtu.be/VesQevqS6Eo
Idk, since i'm not watching to see what's new.
4wd?
AWD
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So, are you now going to tell me they have ev trucks, that can haul a load, and are 4wd?Why do people try to play "gotcha" with the most obscure and personal preferences. EV doesn't do everything neither does something that's 4x4 and hauls a load.
Wait.....can a 4x4 hauling a load parallel park on cramped one way street in center city where the original street was designed for foot traffic and maybe a horse?!?!
What about Camaros? Mustangs? Vettes?
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A lot of posts I want to reply to here, but I’ll just quickly mention a few things.
Cost of electricity for an EV is WAY lower than gasoline. My friends in my area that have EVs say they barely notice a difference in their power bills. One commutes 40 miles each way Mon-Fri and estimates that his bill went up maybe $30 a month. The other says that with the EV discount he gets by promising not to charge between 1pm and 6pm during the summer, that his power bill is now cheaper.
The maintenance is super low. Also, read above for battery longevity. Way cheaper than ICE.
They are fun as heII to drive.
My area has a reliable power grid, I have zero worries.
Tesla isn’t building power plants, but they are building solar walls etc..
Fisker Ocean has a solar panel roof to supplement plug in.
I, too, was EV ignorant prior to mid-2020 and questioned the lithium mining costs, the coal and NG power plants being polluters, etc. do some research and you’ll likely conclude like Arik and Oakie that EV has a legit future that is really a win win win. (Fun to drive, cheaper to own, more environmentally friendly)
Have you seen Tesla's plans for a distributed grid system? I think that's one of the coolest things they're doing. It's going to actually make EVs an asset to the grid. Take what happened in Texas this last Winter for example. That probably wouldn't have happened, because nobody would have been driving due to the weather, and all those cars would have been sitting there supplying the grid during shortages.
There are also some new batteries coming out, as in are already in use. They use molten metal and last virtually forever. They're made to basically be power substations for a distributed grid, but they're starting to scale them to where they could be used for residential applications as whole house backup batteries. That's always been the big downside to solar is it's so expensive to capture and store the electricity, and will likely chance that. I also expect things like the solar roof to get cheaper, plus there's some very efficient solid state wind energy coming down the pipe soon.
They may have a future, but the time isn’t now, especially for small-town or rural Americans. Give it ten or twenty years.
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You would probably quite literally lose your mind if you saw where things will be in 20 years. EVs are already old hat compared to what we're going to see in even the next decade.
Why do people try to play "gotcha" with the most obscure and personal preferences. EV doesn't do everything neither does something that's 4x4 and hauls a load.
Wait.....can a 4x4 hauling a load parallel park on cramped one way street in center city where the original street was designed for foot traffic and maybe a horse?!?!
What about Camaros? Mustangs? Vettes?
Sent from my moto z4 using TapatalkYou would be quite surprised where I can, and have parallel parked larger vehicles, up to and including a tractor trailer.
Hauling and 4wd are not "obscure", when you live on a farm.
Not everyone lives in downtown Chicago.
I just now remembered this, but for those who think the fossil fuel grid is going anywhere, take a look at who's funding Davos. The powers that be obviously have no intention of upending fossil fuels. It's all a big scam to raise taxes and sell carbon credits.
You would probably quite literally lose your mind if you saw where things will be in 20 years. EVs are already old hat compared to what we're going to see in even the next decade.
I don’t disagree but for right now, they just don’t work logistically for me.
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I don’t disagree but for right now, they just don’t work logistically for me.
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Give it six months to a year.
Business_Casual
05-23-21, 08:15
I just now remembered this, but for those who think the fossil fuel grid is going anywhere, take a look at who's funding Davos. The powers that be obviously have no intention of upending fossil fuels. It's all a big scam to raise taxes and sell carbon credits.
Can someone show me the “science” on fossil fuels? Do people really believe oil comes from dinosaurs?
ChattanoogaPhil
05-23-21, 08:18
We’ll be replacing our 2006 Toyota Sienna with the new 2021 Sienna hybrid. 36mpg. We do a fair amount of recreational travel so the hybrid design makes sense for us compared to all-electric.
My 2000 Toyota Tundra is getting a bit long in tooth. The new Ford F-150 Lightening with reported 230mi range (more than enough for my vehicle use) looks like a great replacement if Toyota doesn’t make an all-electric Truck soon. I’m not even remotely considering a new gas truck.
ChattanoogaPhil
05-23-21, 09:17
I just now remembered this, but for those who think the fossil fuel grid is going anywhere, take a look at who's funding Davos. The powers that be obviously have no intention of upending fossil fuels. It's all a big scam to raise taxes and sell carbon credits.
Fossil fuel consumption isn’t going away, but it will be significantly impacted. Last I read personal vehicles account for about 45% of oil consumption in the US. We plan to replace a 21mpg minivan with a 36mpg hybrid minivan, and a 17mpg truck with an an all-electric truck. I’ve purchased about 15,000 gallons of gas for my truck. When I get an all-electric truck I plan to never visit a gas station again for the rest of my life, and refuel (recharge) at home via Sequoyah nuke plant that delivers our electricity.
I believe American consumers will be moving to EVs at a very fast pace in the next few years. Still, about 60% of electricity is generated by fossil fuels so there’s that.
Can someone show me the “science” on fossil fuels? Do people really believe oil comes from dinosaurs?
Tiktok showed you that video too huh?:lol:
I think it's a very intriguing idea for sure. If it's renewable as they claim, I just wonder how fast it gets replenished.
Fossil fuel consumption isn’t going away, but it will be significantly impacted. Last I read personal vehicles account for about 45% of oil consumption in the US. We plan to replace a 21mpg minivan with a 36mpg hybrid minivan, and a 17mpg truck with an an all-electric truck. I’ve purchased about 15,000 gallons of gas for my truck. When I get an all-electric truck I plan to never visit a gas station again for the rest of my life, and refuel (recharge) at home via Sequoyah nuke plant that delivers our electricity.
I believe American consumers will be moving to EVs at a very fast pace in the next few years.
Ain't nobody gonna miss sitting in the mechanic's waiting room, that's for sure.
Ain't nobody gonna miss sitting in the mechanic's waiting room, that's for sure.
Are EVs going to be free of transaxles, bearings, ball joints, struts, shocks, etc?
You’ll still be going to the mechanics.
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Coal Dragger
05-23-21, 12:46
When batteries run down and don’t hold a good charge you still get to go to the mechanic.
When the wiring harness or some other electronic hardware decides to not work anymore you’ll still get to go to the mechanic.
When your window regulators or sunroof go bad, guess what? If you said mechanic...
In fact over my lifetime of owning and operating internal combustion engines, I can count on 0 fingers the number of times in over 20 years that a vehicle I have owned had to have a repair done to the actual internal combustion engine.
Invariably it’s usually something else going wrong, and all of that “else” is still going to be largely present on an EV. If it’s a Tesla you can add poor build quality and virtually no dealer network to get stuff fixed to the fun of going to the mechanic.
They're all over the place here. Damn near a fad. Like every 3rd car. Most shopping centers now have at least one charging station. No unusual amount of accidents. Those who run lights will run lights and your avg car doesn't rumble or have 650hp. A Toyota Camry running a light is not loud. And your avg driver has their music up, and talking to or texting or web surfing so they're not paying attention to noise if they hear it at all.
It's the same argument as blood on the streets if you let people carry guns.
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A buddy had some model of Tesla try his '02 warmed-over and beautiful-sounding Z06 Corvette from a slow roll...he said the Tesla took he and his 'vette's lunch money, pushed them down, and kicked sand in their face.
So, it was pretty bad. 😕
Buddy isnt the best driver in the world with a stick but he's certainly competent.
I told him next time try to see if the Tesla can hang on down an interstate off-ramp. 😁
(Tesla's are heavy pigs)
sandsunsurf
05-23-21, 15:32
A buddy had some model of Tesla try his '02 warmed-over and beautiful-sounding Z06 Corvette from a slow roll...he said the Tesla took he and his 'vette's lunch money, pushed them down, and kicked sand in their face.
So, it was pretty bad. [emoji53]
Buddy isnt the best driver in the world with a stick but he's certainly competent.
I told him next time try to see if the Tesla can hang on down an interstate off-ramp. [emoji16]
(Tesla's are heavy pigs)
There is a whole YouTube series of Tesla vs muscle cars and race cars. The Teslas basically only lose to to seriously badass cars that I’ve never heard of nor could I afford. They do 0-60, 1/4 mile and other distances to be like a “real world” race.
robbins290
05-23-21, 15:38
They got alot more to go before ev's come close to an ice.
People still long distance travel. I go 14.5 hours to nc multiple times a year. No way am i am going to add the extra time to stop and charge every 300 miles or less and traffic would make the commute alot worse. Il sure using the ac sitting in traffic will still drain it.
My truck and the wifes car can get up to 2ook miles with basiclly zero maintenance. Starter once on the wifes car and my nissan never needed anything. Im not going to add the cost of batteries on top of that.
Right now, it will be close to 10 years before they are even comparable. They are good for people that drive short commutes and never go on road trips.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-23-21, 18:18
Tiktok showed you that video too huh?:lol:
I think it's a very intriguing idea for sure. If it's renewable as they claim, I just wonder how fast it gets replenished.
Methane I see. Oil maybe, not so much coal. Coal is because old-school plants lignin wasn’t biodegradable and got laid down forever and got covered over. Is oil the heat and pressure induced de-polymerization of coal? Methane, natural gas, is all over the universe and hydrogen is locked into a lot of rocks. I definitely can see a renewable, non-organic(bio) pathway for it. We have microbes that can digest lignin, so not much chance for coal coming back…
Right now, it will be close to 10 years before they are even comparable. They are good for people that drive short commutes and never go on road trips.
You have described about 80% of cars. Most families have at least two cars. Almost nobody takes two cars on long trips. You need one for long hauls and one for everyday trips. Ev’s can handle those just fine. I see plenty of EV’s on i-70 in winter going back and forth from vail. Don't like them, don't buy them. You've got about 20 years at least before you have to switch.
Are EVs going to be free of transaxles, bearings, ball joints, struts, shocks, etc?
You’ll still be going to the mechanics.
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They have a LOT fewer moving parts and maintenance items. It would depend on how long you drive one. In the lifespan of a single battery, basically no maintenance. When the batteries start going a million miles...I have no idea. But that would be like a normal car going through three or four engines, so that's getting a little bit nitpicky if you ask me.
dwhitehorne
05-23-21, 20:52
I look at myself as a car guy. I've had a 69 SS Chevelle for the past 32 years. I think the idea of EV's are interesting and I read up about them online just because the technology is interesting to me. My biggest issue is the cost of the vehicle. I was looking at the electric F150 last week, estimates say it will start at $75,000 and the one is the promo video will be over $100,000. That's just crazy. Is there a real EV out there that is not a Mr. Magoo car for under $40,000. My 2018 Grand Cherokee was just over $30,000 and I'm the type that is not going to spend more than 30 grand for a vehicle. $100,000 for a vehicle is nuts for the average guy. David
They have a LOT fewer moving parts and maintenance items. It would depend on how long you drive one. In the lifespan of a single battery, basically no maintenance. When the batteries start going a million miles...I have no idea. But that would be like a normal car going through three or four engines, so that's getting a little bit nitpicky if you ask me.
So things like bearings and such won’t go out?
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So things like bearings and such won’t go out?
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I'm sure eventually, but by the time that stuff needs to be replaced you're already out past the mileage that a normal car would go anyways. About the only thing people report having to do maintenance wise is change out some pretty expensive air filters. Tesla is a little obsessed with air filtration in the cabin. Like to the point people have speculated you might be able to survive a chemical attack in one.
I'm sure eventually, but by the time that stuff needs to be replaced you're already out past the mileage that a normal car would go anyways. About the only thing people report having to do maintenance wise is change out some pretty expensive air filters. Tesla is a little obsessed with air filtration in the cabin. Like to the point people have speculated you might be able to survive a chemical attack in one.
What’s so special about them that bearings last longer?
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Coal Dragger
05-23-21, 23:06
Nothing is special about the bearings.
I’m not sure what the highest recorded mileage on a Tesla is (or any other EV), but bearings will still eventually fail. A brushless DC motor will be more durable long term, but there are still bearings to wear out.
I don’t know if the motors used in most EV’s are geared or not, I know in my industry locomotive traction motors frequently burn out, seize up, have pinion gear issues (only applies if the motor in question is using gear reduction or increase to the driven component).
A locked up traction motor is a giant pain in the dick by the way.
Other fun issues are ground faults in the relays, inverter problems, and other computer related issues resulting in no load.
However the amount of abuse heaped on the equipment is not something an EV is likely to experience. So just don’t use your Tesla Cybertruck to try to tow loads so heavy you have a power to weight measured at less than 1hpt. You won’t enjoy the experience and you’ll turn your toy truck into a slag heap.
sandsunsurf
05-23-21, 23:24
My biggest issue is the cost of the vehicle. I was looking at the electric F150 last week, estimates say it will start at $75,000 and the one is the promo video will be over $100,000. That's just crazy. David
Not sure where you’re seeing that, the big news about the Ford is that it starts at $40k and is well equipped at $54k. And that’s before you get the $7500 discount for the tax credit.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-pickup-truck-specs-pricing/
As far as parts, EVs have fewer moving parts and have provably less maintenance. I have no idea how robbins290 goes 200k without an oil change, I call BS.
What’s so special about them that bearings last longer?
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I don't think there is, but I've had cars with several hundred thousand miles on them that still had the original bearings. For the most part, it's just fluids and belts that seem to require constant maintenance in ICE cars. EVs don't use the brakes much because that energy is converted back into electricity. But you also have things like alternators and spark plugs that seem to go out often in ICE cars.
It's not that maintenance is impossible, it's just far less likely, because they have far fewer moving parts. And the parts they do have are the ones that typically don't have unexpected issues. It's all the ICE parts that tend to be wildcards. There's a lot going on under those hoods.
Not sure where you’re seeing that, the big news about the Ford is that it starts at $40k and is well equipped at $54k. And that’s before you get the $7500 discount for the tax credit.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-pickup-truck-specs-pricing/
As far as parts, EVs have fewer moving parts and have provably less maintenance. I have no idea how robbins290 goes 200k without an oil change, I call BS.
Someone please dox him so nobody accidentally buys a used car from him!:lol:
Coal Dragger
05-24-21, 02:24
I don't think there is, but I've had cars with several hundred thousand miles on them that still had the original bearings. For the most part, it's just fluids and belts that seem to require constant maintenance in ICE cars. EVs don't use the brakes much because that energy is converted back into electricity. But you also have things like alternators and spark plugs that seem to go out often in ICE cars.
It's not that maintenance is impossible, it's just far less likely, because they have far fewer moving parts. And the parts they do have are the ones that typically don't have unexpected issues. It's all the ICE parts that tend to be wildcards. There's a lot going on under those hoods.
Spark plugs going out and belts? I just changed the plugs in my 2007 Toyota Tundra, 139,479 miles on the original spark plugs. No misfires, no codes, just starting to get a little less responsive at part throttle. An hour or so of labor and $100 worth of new NGK Ruthenium plugs and the truck runs like new. The original serpentine belt lasted 120K or so. Still on the original brake pads, but I’ll do those this year at some point. I’ve owned the truck since it had about 25 miles on it. Just routine maintenance and fuel have been my costs outside of keeping it insured and purchasing the truck. It’s been paid for now since 2012, so there’s not an EV for sale today that will save me a dime in comparison to just keeping up with maintenance and driving my long paid off truck with an internal combustion engine.
My next vehicle will also be internal combustion because I travel long distances a few times a year, and charging infrastructure in South Dakota isn’t quite there yet. After that who knows, I might upgrade my 240v outlet in my garage to an 80 or 100 amp circuit and get an EV and charge it at home.
Spark plugs going out and belts? I just changed the plugs in my 2007 Toyota Tundra, 139,479 miles on the original spark plugs. No misfires, no codes, just starting to get a little less responsive at part throttle. An hour or so of labor and $100 worth of new NGK Ruthenium plugs and the truck runs like new. The original serpentine belt lasted 120K or so. Still on the original brake pads, but I’ll do those this year at some point. I’ve owned the truck since it had about 25 miles on it. Just routine maintenance and fuel have been my costs outside of keeping it insured and purchasing the truck. It’s been paid for now since 2012, so there’s not an EV for sale today that will save me a dime in comparison to just keeping up with maintenance and driving my long paid off truck with an internal combustion engine.
My next vehicle will also be internal combustion because I travel long distances a few times a year, and charging infrastructure in South Dakota isn’t quite there yet. After that who knows, I might upgrade my 240v outlet in my garage to an 80 or 100 amp circuit and get an EV and charge it at home.
I don't have a breakdown of all the statistics, but needless to say it's obvious that there are fewer parts. EVs have two trunks for crying out loud. The car itself is just a giant battery and some electric motors. There's not a whole lot to go wrong unexpectedly.
I will drive a gas powered car as long as I can....until the govt gets rid of most of the gas stations and turns them into EV recharge stations, then we will all be reliant on the power grid which is very open to weather and hack attack.
Now if each car or recharge station was solar equipped as a supplement in case of disruption that might change stuff.
Plus most of the EV battery components are hazardous waste which is way more harmful to the environment..
I don't think there is, but I've had cars with several hundred thousand miles on them that still had the original bearings. For the most part, it's just fluids and belts that seem to require constant maintenance in ICE cars. EVs don't use the brakes much because that energy is converted back into electricity. But you also have things like alternators and spark plugs that seem to go out often in ICE cars.
It's not that maintenance is impossible, it's just far less likely, because they have far fewer moving parts. And the parts they do have are the ones that typically don't have unexpected issues. It's all the ICE parts that tend to be wildcards. There's a lot going on under those hoods.
Man, what brand of trucks have you been buying? I want to avoid them. I think you’re grossly exaggerating maintenance.
Of all the vehicles I’ve owned, I’ve had two alternators die on me. One went out around 200,000 miles and the other around 300,000. If EVs use stopping power as a means of converting mechanical energy into electrical energy, like an alternator, doesn’t that mean there are now four of them to fail?
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ChattanoogaPhil
05-24-21, 08:11
Of course there will be a growing network of recharging or battery swap stations but I would think it will only be a small fraction of current gas station ops because many folks will be recharging their EVs at home. Meanwhile... gas pumps will wither on the vine.
The only parts failures on my Tundra over a quarter million miles have been engine related. Ongoing regular maintenance has been far more expensive and nearly all engine related, and above all else, gasoline. About 15k gallons at an average of $2 gallon = $30k.
President of Ford has said that ownership costs of their new F-150 Lightening will be about half that of their gas trucks, based on gasoline vs electricity prices, maintenance costs and 'increased vehicle uptime' (whatever that means). Electricity rates here are among the lowest in the nation at 10 cents kWh. Some states are near double that.
With the $39k price tag of the new F-150 AWD EV, it is very appealing. I wonder what resale will be on these EVs when they are five years old? Or will people be in a perpetual state of making payments because there is no used market.
And I still wonder what I would do on my 1600 mile trips? Plan two weeks instead of one? How will I charge it in the Rockies? I carry Jerry cans now, but will in the future carry Jerry cans AND a generator?
I’m not sure EVs are up for such tasks yet. But it does seem they will be a large portion of commuter vehicles for urban, suburban, and sizable towns.
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robbins290
05-24-21, 09:53
Not sure where you’re seeing that, the big news about the Ford is that it starts at $40k and is well equipped at $54k. And that’s before you get the $7500 discount for the tax credit.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-pickup-truck-specs-pricing/
As far as parts, EVs have fewer moving parts and have provably less maintenance. I have no idea how robbins290 goes 200k without an oil change, I call BS.
I said basically zero maintenance. oil changes are the only thing done. oh, and tires. and my breaks on my last truck were OEM, and that was 10 years old when I sold it.
ChattanoogaPhil
05-26-21, 10:15
Ford just told investors that they plan on boosting their spending on EVs to $30 billion (up from $22 billion) through 2025. Also said they have already taken 70,000 reservations for the new Lightening. Stock popped 8% this morning.
Right now the best bang for the buck, in terms of going EV, is a plug-in hybrid. Plug-in hybrids will allow you to run EV only for their short battery capacity, or you can run the ICE motor, or both. Most suburban / urban people can probably do most of their driving on EV only. And you have the ICE motor to take over for longer distances.
I drive an Audi A3 e-tron sportback plug-in hybrid. Have been almost 5 years. About 70% of my driving is with the ICE motor off (either being driven by the electric motors, coasting with ICE off, etc.). I had a 22-24 mile range when new and about 18-21 mile range now depending on the route, winter or not, etc. So I can almost take the kids to school and get home again (about 24.5 miles). Most shopping trips, taking kids to swim practice, church, etc are all EV. Right now I just charge off the grid but one we get the new house built it will have solar panels (to drive the heat pump, house electric needs, and charge cars). I sometimes go a whole month without filling up with gasoline. Newer plug-in hybrids have bigger batteries -- up to twice the capacity. But you can still go on long distance road trips without having to sit and charge for a longer period of time. Just stop and get gas.
Eventually when EV tech gets to either super quick charges, or something else like fuel cells supplying the electricity, you will be able to do long road trips in an EV like you do today in an ICE without the long stops to recharge every 250-350 miles. In March I drove to Phoenix. About 700 miles. No problem and no long charging stops needed.
Also, on a per mile basis, charging outside of your own home is often more expensive than gasoline. I've seen a few places recently that charge per hour and for normal 6kva charging, depending on the status of your battery, and how full it is, you may not get that much in for that hour, and they charge $1.50 -- $2 an hour or more. Compared to our local Costco business center which charges 10 cents per kw.
Anyway, if I were in the market for a first car today, I would stick with ICE or a plug-in hybrid. A second car for local driving is a great job for an EV. Tech will change this calculus.
Audi no longer makes the A3 e-tron sportback PHEV but they do now have a Q4 and an A7 plugin. $$$$$ of course being Audi but they should rock. Heck my A3 wth 1.4 turbo and electric motor is fun to drive and does pretty well. The A7 has a 2.0 turbo plus the electric motor and a lot more power. Not like a whimpy Toyota or Volt or other plug-in :)
robbins290
05-26-21, 14:31
Right now the best bang for the buck, in terms of going EV, is a plug-in hybrid. Plug-in hybrids will allow you to run EV only for their short battery capacity, or you can run the ICE motor, or both. Most suburban / urban people can probably do most of their driving on EV only. And you have the ICE motor to take over for longer distances.
I drive an Audi A3 e-tron sportback plug-in hybrid. Have been almost 5 years. About 70% of my driving is with the ICE motor off (either being driven by the electric motors, coasting with ICE off, etc.). I had a 22-24 mile range when new and about 18-21 mile range now depending on the route, winter or not, etc. So I can almost take the kids to school and get home again (about 24.5 miles). Most shopping trips, taking kids to swim practice, church, etc are all EV. Right now I just charge off the grid but one we get the new house built it will have solar panels (to drive the heat pump, house electric needs, and charge cars). I sometimes go a whole month without filling up with gasoline. Newer plug-in hybrids have bigger batteries -- up to twice the capacity. But you can still go on long distance road trips without having to sit and charge for a longer period of time. Just stop and get gas.
Eventually when EV tech gets to either super quick charges, or something else like fuel cells supplying the electricity, you will be able to do long road trips in an EV like you do today in an ICE without the long stops to recharge every 250-350 miles. In March I drove to Phoenix. About 700 miles. No problem and no long charging stops needed.
Also, on a per mile basis, charging outside of your own home is often more expensive than gasoline. I've seen a few places recently that charge per hour and for normal 6kva charging, depending on the status of your battery, and how full it is, you may not get that much in for that hour, and they charge $1.50 -- $2 an hour or more. Compared to our local Costco business center which charges 10 cents per kw.
Anyway, if I were in the market for a first car today, I would stick with ICE or a plug-in hybrid. A second car for local driving is a great job for an EV. Tech will change this calculus.
Audi no longer makes the A3 e-tron sportback PHEV but they do now have a Q4 and an A7 plugin. $$$$$ of course being Audi but they should rock. Heck my A3 wth 1.4 turbo and electric motor is fun to drive and does pretty well. The A7 has a 2.0 turbo plus the electric motor and a lot more power. Not like a whimpy Toyota or Volt or other plug-in :)
That wont even get my wife to work and back!!!!!
That wont even get my wife to work and back!!!!!
I guess you are not a target for one then, are you?
Though more modern plug-ins will typically get 30-50 miles on the internal battery -- my 2016 A3 has 8.8 kwh -- many today are 14kwh -- 20 kwh. Will your wife get to work in 30-5o miles one way? And since it is plug-in, you can always drive on gas when the battery runs out.
Most suburban / urban folks drive mostly "short" distances for shopping, errands, kids activities, etc. Even with my kids school being 25 miles round trip, in the 4 3/4 years I've had the car, 20% of my driving is non ICE. Most of the ICE driving is our once a week down to Orem, which ads 50-60 miles ICE a week, plus I bought the car in Arizona, so drove it back home when new on ICE, and I drove it to Arizona and back, adding in about 1600 ICE miles without charging. Most of the rest is 90-100% non-ICE per trip. I'll often have 600-900 miles between fillups of gas and have gone as long as 5 weeks. And this is with the smaller 8.8 kwh battery. If I had a 14kwh battery I could add another 10% of my driving to be non-ICE.
Spark plugs going out and belts? I just changed the plugs in my 2007 Toyota Tundra, 139,479 miles on the original spark plugs. No misfires, no codes, just starting to get a little less responsive at part throttle. An hour or so of labor and $100 worth of new NGK Ruthenium plugs and the truck runs like new. The original serpentine belt lasted 120K or so. Still on the original brake pads, but I’ll do those this year at some point. I’ve owned the truck since it had about 25 miles on it. Just routine maintenance and fuel have been my costs outside of keeping it insured and purchasing the truck. It’s been paid for now since 2012, so there’s not an EV for sale today that will save me a dime in comparison to just keeping up with maintenance and driving my long paid off truck with an internal combustion engine.
My next vehicle will also be internal combustion because I travel long distances a few times a year, and charging infrastructure in South Dakota isn’t quite there yet. After that who knows, I might upgrade my 240v outlet in my garage to an 80 or 100 amp circuit and get an EV and charge it at home.Similar experience. My old 01 Toyota Solara 4cyl (2 door Camry) went 300k before I sold it in 2013. In that time frame I changed one radiator, 2-3 thermostats, one rubber hose all 4 struts/shocks, several batteries. That was it.
Every 100k - 150k water pump and timing belt. So while at it I had the spark plugs and wires changed out as well as the top cover gasket. All that was preventive maintenance and all but the water pump was simple stuff. Everything else on the car was original including the axles, bearings, starter, ...etc....even the rotors.
Was a great car. I probably would have held onto it longer if a newer car deal hadn't fallen into my lap
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robbins290
05-26-21, 17:56
I guess you are not a target for one then, are you?
Though more modern plug-ins will typically get 30-50 miles on the internal battery -- my 2016 A3 has 8.8 kwh -- many today are 14kwh -- 20 kwh. Will your wife get to work in 30-5o miles one way? And since it is plug-in, you can always drive on gas when the battery runs out.
Most suburban / urban folks drive mostly "short" distances for shopping, errands, kids activities, etc. Even with my kids school being 25 miles round trip, in the 4 3/4 years I've had the car, 20% of my driving is non ICE. Most of the ICE driving is our once a week down to Orem, which ads 50-60 miles ICE a week, plus I bought the car in Arizona, so drove it back home when new on ICE, and I drove it to Arizona and back, adding in about 1600 ICE miles without charging. Most of the rest is 90-100% non-ICE per trip. I'll often have 600-900 miles between fillups of gas and have gone as long as 5 weeks. And this is with the smaller 8.8 kwh battery. If I had a 14kwh battery I could add another 10% of my driving to be non-ICE.
Problem is we live in a small town in the middle of no where. Its 32 miles one way for her. And i dont even think there is a charging station any where near us. Or her work.
I on the other hand. I drive 4-5 miles daily. But i have to haul a boat. Or a wheela or haul steel to a jobsite. So that option for ev is not even on your radar.
Problem is we live in a small town in the middle of no where. Its 32 miles one way for her. And i dont even think there is a charging station any where near us. Or her work.
I on the other hand. I drive 4-5 miles daily. But i have to haul a boat. Or a wheela or haul steel to a jobsite. So that option for ev is not even on your radar.
The f150 may be up your alley.
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Problem is we live in a small town in the middle of no where. Its 32 miles one way for her. And i dont even think there is a charging station any where near us. Or her work.
I on the other hand. I drive 4-5 miles daily. But i have to haul a boat. Or a wheela or haul steel to a jobsite. So that option for ev is not even on your radar.
Yeah, it is not for everyone. But even if your wife made it to work on EV power and used gasoline on the way home, the savings add up. And for around town and stuff in addition.
Your situation is why EVs are not ready yet -- too many downsides and not enough upsides for the general population as a prime vehicle. The plugin hybrids are a good in between car for those wanting to get their feet wet. 30-50 miles is not a bad EV range if you have a gasoline engine backing you up and for the "average" person, will probably cover a majority of your driving needs on EV (around town, groceries, etc).
robbins290
05-27-21, 07:59
The f150 may be up your alley.
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Ya? How much can this ford haul and how far? Sometimes jobsites can be over 2 hours away. Hauling couple thousand pounds of weight in the bed. I dont think that will end well.
No offense, I will never, ever buy another ford. Without going into a debate about trucks like some of the car forums turn into.
untill i have a charger thats closer then 40 miles away, and can last 14 hours one way, i will not be buying and EV. Like i said before, I go from maine to NC multiple times a year.
Adrenaline_6
05-27-21, 08:37
You guys know that most electricity is made from fossil fuels right? I have nothing against EV's. I like electric motors actually, but if you don't have a solar system at your house and/or charge your EV in some sort of free energy way, you are essentially saving nothing. Not to mention the extra cost of the EV itself and battery replacement and disposal cost when that comes around. Sure they get about $300K-500K miles on a battery now, but so does my LX570 5.7L...easily. In fact, it can go a lot more than that.
Until charging becomes almost instantaneous, it is kind of an inconvenience.
ChattanoogaPhil
05-27-21, 09:12
About 60% of electricity generated in the US is from fossil fuels. It's 0% around here (Sequoyah and Watts Barr nuclear) 10 cents kWh. If what I've read is close to accurate that's the equivalent of about $1/gal of gas. Gas is creeping up in price here $2.50+/gal.
Not sure how cost effective home solar panels would be but I like the idea of being able to recharge a vehicle off the grid.
https://i.imgur.com/OfsGMe5.jpg
Ya? How much can this ford haul and how far? Sometimes jobsites can be over 2 hours away. Hauling couple thousand pounds of weight in the bed. I dont think that will end well.
No offense, I will never, ever buy another ford. Without going into a debate about trucks like some of the car forums turn into.
untill i have a charger thats closer then 40 miles away, and can last 14 hours one way, i will not be buying and EV. Like i said before, I go from maine to NC multiple times a year.
I was basing off your 4-5 miles. You didn’t say anything about 14 hours in your previous post.
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Adrenaline_6
05-27-21, 09:48
About 60% of electricity generated in the US is from fossil fuels. It's 0% around here (Sequoyah and Watts Barr nuclear) 10 cents kWh. If what I've read is close to accurate that's the equivalent of about $1/gal of gas. Gas is creeping up in price here $2.50+/gal.
Not sure how cost effective home solar panels would be but I like the idea of being able to recharge a vehicle off the grid.
60% would be well into the majority. For you, it makes a little more sense, but with that $1.50/gallon delta that you have, what is it when you factor in the extra cost of the EV versus non, + the time spent waiting to recharge on any long trips?
ChattanoogaPhil
05-27-21, 11:10
60% would be well into the majority. For you, it makes a little more sense, but with that $1.50/gallon delta that you have, what is it when you factor in the extra cost of the EV versus non, + the time spent waiting to recharge on any long trips?
I mentioned earlier in the thread that we'll be purchasing a hybrid minivan for our recreational travel so over-the-road charging won't be an issue. I don't take my truck on long trips. I plan to replace my 2000 Tundra with an all-electric truck.
Not sure what the price premium for an EV will be, but if we compared the Ford Lightening to a current gas Tundra... Ford says their Lightening will start at $40k. Toyota Tundra starts at $34k. There's not a great price spread but you'd have to factor how each vehicle is actually equipped. A top of the line F-150 gas Lariat has a starting price of $71,000. Toyota is supposed to have a Tundra redo for 2022... so... who knows.
Ford says they expect ownership costs of their Lightening will be half of their F-150 gas trucks based on electricity costs vs gas, maintenance costs and improved vehicle uptime (aimed at fleet sales no doubt).
To answer your question... If we used the Tundra's 13-17mpg (also what my truck is rated) at $1.50/gal equivalent savings with electric, that would be 4k gallons to make up for the Lightening's $6k price premium mentioned above, or 52-68k miles based on Tundra's mpg. Of course that's a rather crude comparison based only on fuel.
I drove by Sam's Club yesterday. I saw folks lined up six deep at the pumps to save 10 cents a gallon. The idea of being able to refuel (recharge) at home is really growing on me.
robbins290
05-27-21, 11:20
I did say something about 14.5 hours in my original comment. but if you missed that, i could see basing it off the mileage I drive daily.
You guys know that most electricity is made from fossil fuels right? I have nothing against EV's. I like electric motors actually, but if you don't have a solar system at your house and/or charge your EV in some sort of free energy way, you are essentially saving nothing. Not to mention the extra cost of the EV itself and battery replacement and disposal cost when that comes around. Sure they get about $300K-500K miles on a battery now, but so does my LX570 5.7L...easily. In fact, it can go a lot more than that.
Until charging becomes almost instantaneous, it is kind of an inconvenience.
If you drive 300-500k miles then a battery change would factor into your price but realistically who does?? Very few people and by then those cars are 15+ years old. I managed to do 220k on one car in 7 years but I was trying. Avg 31.5k a year. Cabs avg 50k a year and they're none stop
At $3.15/gal regular it doesn't matter that electricity is made from fossil fuels kwph is still cheaper.
If you drive far constantly and have a specific window of time you can travel then it is an inconvenience. However if my drive is over a 24hr I don't really care if there an hour added on to it. The only time I see this as an inconvenience is if a 10hr trips turns into a 27hr trip based on the locations of the charging stations. That's a pain in the ass for sure but adding an hour to an already day long trip ....eh... whatever.... driving that long I'm going to pull over and take a walk anyway
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Won’t the battery die regardless of mileage?
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robbins290
05-27-21, 13:47
Mrad, I would asuume they have to die regardless of milage. All batteries are consumables. They have gotten alot better then they used to be. But they can only be charged so many cycles. And just sitting there, it will slowly deplete itself. I see it all the time in cordless power tools, cell phones, ATV's, cars, boats, riding lawn mowers.
Yes, so you are more or less guaranteed the need to replace them in what? Five or six years regardless of miles?
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At $3.15/gal regular it doesn't matter that electricity is made from fossil fuels kwph is still cheaper.
It all comes down to cost/mile. That is how you have to figure it. For most vehicles, if you charge at home and don't have a stupid state with 50 cents a kwh cost at home, home charging will usually be a lot cheaper than gas. But a lot of pay-chargers out there cost a lot more than charging at home. With my hybrid, there are places I go that have charging stations, but due to the insane charging price I would rather just drive on gas at that point and wait to charge until I get home.
When you are driving long periods of time, the "extra" time starts to REALLY MATTER -- at least for me. You are tired, and tired of driving, and every little delay becomes really annoying. I would not, at this juncture, get a pure EV as a main car if you do any sort of long range driving. The extra time to charge, and the inconvenience of having to find a charging station, is not worth the hassle (especially in places out west where there are long stretches without civilization more than a gas station and convenience store on the side of the highway). Wait for the tech level to increase with longer ranges per battery capacity, and faster charging times, or EV not dependent on batteries so much. And more charging locations available. Gas stations are everywhere, even out in the middle of no where. Not so with charging stations at the moment.
Yes, so you are more or less guaranteed the need to replace them in what? Five or six years regardless of miles?
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Tesla warranties their battery’s for 8 years / 150,000 miles.
The estimated battery life for the Tesla is 300,000 to 500,000 miles.
Battery pack replacement cost is between $5k-$7k.
robbins290
05-27-21, 14:29
mRad, Not exactly sure, but too often for me to consider going to an EV. They would have to last a min of 10 years for me. I can get a motor and tranny to go over 10 years.
Between the lack of charging stations, mileage before charging, and replacment batteries, Its a HARD no for me. My wifes brand new car can get 35-45 MPG and my pick up with out hauling gets around 20-22.
Tesla warranties their battery’s for 8 years / 150,000 miles.
The estimated battery life for the Tesla is 300,000 to 500,000 miles.
Battery pack replacement cost is between $5k-$7k.
If seems weird they warranty a battery for 150,000 if it’s said to last twice that.
That seems like it kills the value of beaters/used EVs. Hopefully as time goes on, that can be improved and charging can be made universal.
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If seems weird they warranty a battery for 150,000 if it’s said to last twice that.
That seems like it kills the value of beaters/used EVs. Hopefully as time goes on, that can be improved and charging can be made universal.
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Why is that weird to you?!?
Chevrolet powertrain warranty is only 5 years / 100,000 miles. A gas engine lasts longer than 100,000 miles.
The bureau of transportation says that you can expect a modern day car’s engine to last approximately 200,000 miles.
So it would appear that the Tesla battery pack has a longer lifespan than the typical modern car and with an equal or better warranty.
mRad, Not exactly sure, but too often for me to consider going to an EV. They would have to last a min of 10 years for me. I can get a motor and tranny to go over 10 years.
Between the lack of charging stations, mileage before charging, and replacment batteries, Its a HARD no for me. My wifes brand new car can get 35-45 MPG and my pick up with out hauling gets around 20-22.
What is your wife's car? That sounds pretty good.
To me, the only way a pure EV makes sense would be in a 2 car family where it is just used around town and all the charging would be in the garage at niight. The other vehicle would either be gas or gas/ hybrid.
Why is that weird to you?!?
Chevrolet powertrain warranty is only 5 years / 100,000 miles. A gas engine lasts longer than 100,000 miles.
The bureau of transportation says that you can expect a modern day car’s engine to last approximately 200,000 miles.
So it would appear that the Tesla battery pack has a longer lifespan than the typical modern car and with an equal or better warranty.
It would seem the battery would be pro-rated. If I buy an automotive battery, it tells me on the label it’s life expectancy. If it lasts 80% of expectancy, I get 20% off the replacement.
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ChattanoogaPhil
05-27-21, 17:26
Prorated battery... that’s a good point. The Sienna my wife wants has a 10yr 150k warranty on the battery but don’t know if that would be prorated or full replacement. The hybrid components are covered for 8yr 100k. We’ve had good luck with Toyotas. Almost 450k between the Tundra and Sienna we have now. Warranty didn’t come into use for either.
Tundras are excellent trucks. I was about to pull the trigger on one when things started to get crazy with COVID and decided I’d be better off to avoid debt. I know several people with 300k miles on their Tundras.
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Adrenaline_6
05-27-21, 19:57
Tundras are excellent trucks. I was about to pull the trigger on one when things started to get crazy with COVID and decided I’d be better off to avoid debt. I know several people with 300k miles on their Tundras.
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That 5.7L V8 Is the definition of bulletproof. Toyota bought back one from a guy who drove a million miles on one. They gave him a brand new one in exchange.
They put it on the dyno first then tore it apart to study wear. It made more HP than a new one, had a small scratch on one bearing and the cylinder bore hone cross hatching was still visible.
Adrenaline_6
05-27-21, 20:12
If you drive 300-500k miles then a battery change would factor into your price but realistically who does?? Very few people and by then those cars are 15+ years old. I managed to do 220k on one car in 7 years but I was trying. Avg 31.5k a year. Cabs avg 50k a year and they're none stop
At $3.15/gal regular it doesn't matter that electricity is made from fossil fuels kwph is still cheaper.
If you drive far constantly and have a specific window of time you can travel then it is an inconvenience. However if my drive is over a 24hr I don't really care if there an hour added on to it. The only time I see this as an inconvenience is if a 10hr trips turns into a 27hr trip based on the locations of the charging stations. That's a pain in the ass for sure but adding an hour to an already day long trip ....eh... whatever.... driving that long I'm going to pull over and take a walk anyway
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I get your point, but when I drive, long distance or not, I hate stopping. I can drive a long time.
My wife had to insist we stop and kick me out of the driver's seat when driving back from NJ to FL. We left at 9pm and she kicked me out in GA at 8ish in the morning. I would have drove all the way home.
For me, driving is the process not the end game. I want to accomplish the end game quick as possible. Waiting for your EV to charge at least twice in the wee hours of the morning would have sucked donkey.
This past Thursday evening my son graduated from HS. He attended a small charter school and they rented the local community college auditorium. We drove my PHEV Audi A3 e-tron Sportback to the graduation and they had a ChargePoint charger on campus just around the corner from the building with the auditorium. ChargePoint chargers pricing is set by the property owner and is usually quite high and a bad deal. However, I checked this one and it was only 5 cents per kwh. (Max 2 hours at which poingt they add a $10 parking fee on to get people to not park there forever and hog the charger). I let it charge and it took about 2.9 kwh of juice until it had filled up (I was not at empty when we got there). My fill up cost me 14 cents. It was awesome. I was able to get us all the way home again on electricity and this was the (gradual) uphill portion (gradual downhill portion was getting there, which is why the usage getting there was a lot less than the use getting back home). With $3.35 regular ($3.65+ premium) now, that was like driving for free and I would have paid like $1.25 or so in gas, approximately.
I normally charge at home at about 11 - 14 cents a kwh and save a lot vs gasoline for around town driving over the long term. I won't charge in public unless it is cheap like the 10 cents at Costco or this unbelievable 5 cents.
Does the heavier vehicle wear on suspension and steering parts?
Does cold weather affect battery performance?
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ChattanoogaPhil
05-30-21, 07:25
From what I've read weather can have a significant effect on battery performance. According to this chart the area I live in is near ideal for EV battery performance and one of the many reasons my next pickup truck will be all-electric.
https://i.imgur.com/UPM0q61.png
https://www.driveelectricvt.com/winter
Hybrids seem far better than 100% battery powered. Except maybe for fleet vehicles and semi's.
Im still curious what the effect on the power grid and electric cost will be once a significant number of E vehicles are out there.
My manager has a Tesla (he has a lot of cars) but normally drives his Audi A4. I haven't really asked him why. Lots more folks at work with hybrids, and they are generally daily drivers.
Andy
ChattanoogaPhil
05-30-21, 09:55
I believe grid capacity will grow alongside demand as did our gasoline network from the early 1900s to today. I think it will likely have a flatter curve because many will be charing their EVs at night during off-peak hours requiring no additional capacity. Homeowners using solar will likely significantly grow in future years. In general, I don't believe capacity will be much of an issue. As always, reliability and how disruptions are dealt with will be key. I wouldn't be surprised to see more focus on some type of home battery/storage backup.
Here winters are cold and summers hot. No one I know who has an electric car has given a thought to battery performance. It's never been an issue.
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ChattanoogaPhil
05-30-21, 10:21
Recommendations from Consumer Reports reflects the above chart, but also adds that much of the loss of range in cold weather is due to heating the cabin. Tremendous losses in driving range.
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/buying-an-electric-car-for-a-cold-climate-double-down-on-range/
Diamondback
05-30-21, 10:25
I believe grid capacity will grow alongside demand as did our gasoline network from the early 1900s to today. I think it will likely have a flatter curve because many will be charing their EVs at night during off-peak hours requiring no additional capacity. Homeowners using solar will likely significantly grow in future years. In general, I don't believe capacity will be much of an issue. As always, reliability and how disruptions are dealt with will be key. I wouldn't be surprised to see more focus on some type of home battery/storage backup.
Assuming you can get new construction approved by the regulatory retards...
Won’t the battery die regardless of mileage?
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Tesla is claiming the next generation will go a million miles before it's down to 70%. If it does even half that it will all but replace ICE. They're claiming a 600 mile range, too, and an entry price below comparable ICE models like the Civic.
Tesla is claiming the next generation will go a million miles before it's down to 70%. If it does even half that it will all but replace ICE. They're claiming a 600 mile range, too, and an entry price below comparable ICE models like the Civic.
Tesla has made a lot of 'claims' so far that turned out to be... Overly optimistic.
Diamondback
05-30-21, 12:44
Tesla has made a lot of 'claims' so far that turned out to be... Overly optimistic.
I remember twenty years ago when all the science wonks claimed that safe, affordable fusion reactors were just around the corner... and I remember that back in the '50s their counterparts thought we'd all have condos on the Moon by now and be commuting by Aerocar or jetpack.
As a humorous anecdote I was putting a new sewer line across a road a few winters back. We were in the street working one day in a pretty decent snow storm. We heard this grinding dragging noise coming up the street. We were all kind of distracted by it. Along comes this prius. It was pushing a massive ice dam down the road. It was about a foot in front of the car extending under the front to somewhere around the front wheels. It was just kinda plowing it's way down the road. Not enough engine heat to stop or melt the build up I suppose. Not a deal breaker for EVs by any means but it was damned funny to see.
ChattanoogaPhil
05-31-21, 07:39
I don't know about a million-mile EV battery, but I wouldn't bet against improved battery performance as well as more efficient electric devices at lower prices.
Battery doesn't have to last forever, it just needs to reach a price point to where it's an economical alternative to gasoline engines for more consumers.
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Excerpts:
Fortunately, it looks like the cost per kilowatt-hour is continuing to trend down, and according to a new report from energy research firm BloombergNEF (New Energy Finance), the market average should be $101 per kWh by 2023. The $100-per-kWh price point is where experts expect the cost of EVs to match the prices of comparable gas-powered vehicles. If federal and state tax credits are still available at that time, it’s likely that they could make an EV cheaper than a gas car to buy.
The report notes that the battery packs of buses in China have already dipped below the $100-per-kWh price point. As for the average global price for batteries in 2020 across all EV segments (including personal vehicles, buses, stationary battery solutions, and commercial EVs), it hit a new low of $137 per kWh. That’s an 89 percent drop from 2010, when the price was $1100 per kWh.
BloombergNEF cites increased production due to sales growth, falling manufacturing costs, the price of cathode materials, and new pack designs as the main contributors to the drop in price. Essentially, it's basic economics. If you make more of something, the prices fall as the entire ecosystem adjusts and becomes more efficient.
More here: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a34992832/battery-price-drop-2023/
I believe grid capacity will grow alongside demand as did our gasoline network from the early 1900s to today. I think it will likely have a flatter curve because many will be charing their EVs at night during off-peak hours requiring no additional capacity. Homeowners using solar will likely significantly grow in future years. In general, I don't believe capacity will be much of an issue. As always, reliability and how disruptions are dealt with will be key. I wouldn't be surprised to see more focus on some type of home battery/storage backup.
Home battery storage for those with solar and perhaps even without solar should provide a cushion for night time recharging. Doesn't having the car in the garage isolate it from the morning commute temp issues whether too cold or hot? In the summer, if yo can park in the shade that should help take the edge off of the evening commute. We don't travel more than a 50 mile round trip 95% of the time. that would work great for an all elec or a plug in hybrid. However, I would not have an all elec as my only vehicle.
Who knows, in 10 years we may subscribe
to a vehicle.
Adrenaline_6
06-01-21, 08:09
Home battery storage for those with solar and perhaps even without solar should provide a cushion for night time recharging. Doesn't having the car in the garage isolate it from the morning commute temp issues whether too cold or hot? In the summer, if yo can park in the shade that should help take the edge off of the evening commute. We don't travel more than a 50 mile round trip 95% of the time. that would work great for an all elec or a plug in hybrid. However, I would not have an all elec as my only vehicle.
Who knows, in 10 years we may subscribe
to a vehicle.
That is a good mindset, in the grand scheme of things in the EV world, we are in it's infancy stages. Let the tech work the kinks out and get better, more efficient and develop. Jumping on the "latest and greatest" in an infant tech is usually a bad move. Like Beta vs VHS, Minidisc vs CD's, etc (yea, most of us did it at some time or other). Right now, the ICE's convenience, range, and price is just fine. Until it isn't, I can wait until then. Just because EV's don't have parts that don't break/wear out like ICE's have, it doesn't mean they don't have different ones that do or have totally separate issues that ICE's don't.
That is a good mindset, in the grand scheme of things in the EV world, we are in it's infancy stages. Let the tech work the kinks out and get better, more efficient and develop. Jumping on the "latest and greatest" in an infant tech is usually a bad move. Like Beta vs VHS, Minidisc vs CD's, etc (yea, most of us did it at some time or other). Right now, the ICE's convenience, range, and price is just fine. Until it isn't, I can wait until then. Just because EV's don't have parts that don't break/wear out like ICE's have, it doesn't mean they don't have different ones that do or have totally separate issues that ICE's don't.
Good points. A retired engineer I know put down a deposit for a Tesla with all the options. Then he later canceled and bought a hybrid accord, having decided the tesla was just too crazy expensive and all that tech would drop in price in a few years.
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