View Full Version : Any real advantage of an A4 vs an M4?
Nostalgia aside of course. Is there any distinct upper hand a full-sized A4 might have over an M4? Velocity comes to mind, which would primarily allow a greater range for optimal terminal ballistics (of course that assumes 20" vs 14.5"; 20" vs 16" and the gap narrows significantly). The rifle length gas system is the one the Stoner system was designed around, so there's that. Accuracy, all other weapon and ammo qualities being equal, *should* be about the same. Of course the M4 wins for weight and handiness.
Opinions?
The genesis of this isn't about need. I'm AR'd out as far as that goes. I have the 20" itch scratched already too (not A4 though). Just saw a decent deal on an A4 upper assembly that, with the addition of an A2 stock/buffer/spring I could easily convert a franken-M4 I have to the full-sized configuration. Yeah, I need it like another hole in my head but you guys know the deal with this affliction. ;)
After swinging around a 20” 308 pencil barrel, I became convinced that a pencil or tightly tapered 20” 5.56 barrel is probably a worthwhile endeavor. It wasn’t that unwieldy, even LARPing through my house.
I’m also tapped out at the moment with some “have fun” builds, but I’ll probably put together an upper along these lines eventually. Whether or not it is “worth it” over a 16” barrel, I’m not sure. I did note when NZ chose 16” as their carbine barrel length.
I would rather have something along the lines of an A1. Those 55 grain bullets doing 3k fps absolutely shred stuff. Nice flat trajectory too.
Better reliability, lower recoil, and higher muzzle velocity.
The extra muzzle velocity is good for unknown range targets. The flatter trajectory is going to be more forgiving on range estimation errors. It's not a huge difference but it could mean the difference between putting a round through the window or into the wall below it.
The carbine is a compromise of a compromise that has been shoehorned into a main role.
I have way more fun with a 20” A1 than most anything else because of my long arms.
I am mulling a dedicated rifle build as well as an A2 clone. When society stops, My Hiro Oonada gun will be a rifle length gas gun.
The carbine is a compromise of a compromise that has been shoehorned into a main role.
I have way more fun with a 20” A1 than most anything else because of my long arms.
I am mulling a dedicated rifle build as well as an A2 clone. When society stops, My Hiro Oonada gun will be a rifle length gas gun.
I'm not in the Yao Ming category like you, but I'm not exactly short either! The 20" A1 AR still feels good in the hands. Hell, it was what I cut my teeth on in 1983 when I showed up at Ft. Benning.
As an aside, ever read the book written (maybe co-authored?) by Hiro Oonada? I recall reading it in early high school, maybe middle school. Late 70's, early 80's. It had diagrams and shit he had drawn in it. Pretty interesting.
If the size is good for you, a 20” is nothing but advantages.
ABNAK,
All I know is this, you deserve another AR, and I feel it should be a 20”….
I’m not sure how to put into words how much smoother a 20” is, but it is tangible.
If the size is good for you, a 20” is nothing but advantages.
Amen brother, and that isn’t just the gin talking!
I had a few of my ARs out today and the one I enjoyed shooting the most was my A1. The difference is absolutely tangible.
I attend multiday training events/competitions where you are issued a rack grade weapon from your sending unit (M4, M4A1, M16A2, or M16A4 for rifle). Another shooter who frequents the events and makes the podium at all of them recently had the M16A4 phased out of his units and now shoots an M4A1. When we were shooting the breeze he remarked he preferred the M16A4's recoil impulse over the M4's. Keep in mind some of the stages include multiple shots per target with multiple targets under decreasing time limits, so recoil impulse is noticeable during strings of fire. Those 20" rifles just treat you nice.
I've long enjoyed the simplicity of running a 20" system w/ the Vltor A5. Very smoot impulse, well balanced, and deceptively lightweight if you're used to running carbines with rails, lights, etc. I say go for it!
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-30-21, 23:46
I've lost all interest in anything that isn't a suppressed 10.3/11.5 with a red dot or a 20" with rifle length gas and a magnified optic.
Sure, a 16" carbine or mid length gas may be the new hotness, but I'm partial to that old time religion.
A4 is much better for me than an M4 because I strongly dislike the lack of real estate on a Carbine handguard/rail (assuming both have FSB).
20" is noticeably quieter than a 16/14.5" due to lower pressure at the muzzle and the muzzle being a bit farther from your ear, velocity is a bit higher, and the rifle length gas system makes for a soft shooter.
I built (and then re-built for my brother) a rifle with a 20" light barrel (Faxon Gunner) and a 15" rail. I had forgotten how nicely it handled and shot until I sighted it in for him.
I honestly think a 16" midlength is the better all-purpose AR, but the 20" rifle makes for a nearly perfect "ranch gun" for my brother.
Andy
I would definitely buy that upper an make an A4
LGS here (Switzerland) has a new Colt AR-15 A4 and the only reason I refrained from buying it so far is the high price of over $2000
I have three 20” ARs, and when you shoot them, particularly if you *mostly* shoot shorter guns there really is an “Aha” moment when you shoot an AR in the configuration it was originally designed in. Not that carbines are “bad” by any stretch of course, but the full length AR is just a better shooter.
And honestly while the 20” is considered “dated” I guess now...personally I feel that a full length rifle still has a lot of merit for civilian use, where the extra length isn’t as detrimental as it might be in some scenarios of military use like riding in an armored personnel carrier or clearing passageways on a ship.
All three of my 20s have either A1 or C7 uppers though (I have two M16A1 clones and a Colt R0719 parts kit on a Brownells A1 lower), but there is a part of me that really wants a A4 style flattop 20” to put an optic on as well.
I find the A4 superior to the M4 in everything except length and weight. I do realize that there are times though that shorter length and less weight matter more than extra velocity and a longer sight radius.
I own a Colt Combat Unit carbine, and I find it to be an almost perfect compromise between the A4 and the M4.
I really like my 20 inch Rifle in 6mm ARC, so much so that I am building its twin. Everything else in AR's are 14.5 & 16 inches. I seriously need to do something about that tho......
I own a Colt Combat Unit carbine, and I find it to be an almost perfect compromise between the A4 and the M4.
I don’t have a lot of rounds down my CCU upper, because I always grab the 12.5 or suppressed 11.5 when I head to the range. But...it balances exceptionally well, lighter than my BCM 12.5 Kino. I keep it for crossing the nearby border into Commie-land, but not sure I could bring myself to sell it even if that weren’t the case.
So here's the thing. I can talk about the sweetness of a 20 inch but ...
Get yourself one, try it out. You'll like it. It's also a great gun to start kids/grandkids out in the AR platform. They just feel better. Mission drives the gear. If your mission is to have a pleasant afternoon of shooting, then the gear you need is a 20 inch rifle gas. Yeah they have a practical side too, but we don't own multiple guns cause we're practical. ;)
Worst case you resell it, but I doubt it. No down side.
I say get it. 20' ARs fun to shoot and having an A4 would be cool addition to anyone's arsenal.
I have way more fun with a 20” A1 than most anything else because of my long arms.
I like the 20" rifles, and long HGs on shorter, for the same reasons.
Funny how this comes full circle. Folks like the flexibility of the longer HG and impulse of the 20", so they attempt the same in the carbine but with the accompanying quirks of reliability as they mess with the gas.
I'm not in the Yao Ming category like you, but I'm not exactly short either! The 20" A1 AR still feels good in the hands. Hell, it was what I cut my teeth on in 1983 when I showed up at Ft. Benning.
As an aside, ever read the book written (maybe co-authored?) by Hiro Oonada? I recall reading it in early high school, maybe middle school. Late 70's, early 80's. It had diagrams and shit he had drawn in it. Pretty interesting.
I have read that book. He was not some Japanese Green Beret or whatever. He just made up in his mind that he was going to keep going.
Him keeping a working weapon which was the same he was issued was a feat within itself. 30 years of no help. No anything.
I won’t say a Carbine has no place but it’s still a compromise for long term use. The fact remains that a carbine gas will invariably be more violent than a midlength or a rifle.
The entire concept of the initial compact AR was to make it easier to tote. Originally it was just a cut down M16 with rifle gas and a fixed stock. But a lot of the modern adaptations were to fix contemporary problems. It’s still rather niche.
I am so tempted to go to a mid length but only keep carbine just for personal logistics and familial barrel design (Colt stuff with Colt stuff).
That said, folks I am not getting younger and I’m feeling my age. Some poor vocational choices incurred in my twenties and thirties are now catching up with me physically. I’m just not going to be 25 again physically where I can go through packs of Marlboro Reds, highball Red Bull and Code Red Mountain Dew, knock out a 16 hour shift, pleasure and satisfy college nymphos, and catch a cat nap and do it again for four more days then party super hard on my days off.
NO! I feel like if I baby sipped a Red Bull today that I would die.
I say all that to say this. I’m going to be comfortable. An SBR is a tool not a toy. They aren’t my first choice for fun (except a 300 blk maybe). Unless I am busting into a crack house then honestly I don’t want a shorty.
I can see my stuff matriculating to mid length gas. I only use a personal can for hunting.
My tastes have stayed the same to an extent but the finer details have definitely changed. Everything now is predicated on comfort, handiness, ease of use, convenience, and replicability.
I won’t say one shouldn’t have their toys if you want. But again I have matured to where I find more novelty in a Cowboy gun or a Garand or an M1 carbine than what SOCOM uses.
I thought Cold War guns were cool until I played gun pokemon and realized that they suck to clean and maintain and why go through that when I can plunk a scope on an AR-10.
Easy, Peasy Japanesey. Lean, Mean North Korean.
That’s where I am at in my life journey. And it gives me far more time to have a life.
From a practical standpoint, I think a mid length 14.5, with enhanced bolt is a really good option for most use cases. With that being said, they are incredibly smooth, low recoiling configurations that operate at lower pressures with higher bullet velocity and longer service life on extractors,springs and ejectors are longer than shorter configurations.
I think that as long as the majority of your shooting is not going to be done inside of cars or hallways, I really like the A4
Run a middy with a rifle tube or if needing to bro doz-A5?
Run a middy with a rifle tube or if needing to bro doz-A5?
For many years one of my main ARs was a midlength with rifle receiver extension and an A1 stock. Ran quite well. I only finally switched back to a carbine RE like two months ago.
I’ve also dabbled in carbine-length guns with rifle stocks a few times over the years.
I’m still running Colt 6920s. I have spare bolts and parts. I’m 40. They’ll be effective longer than I will.
I’m still running Colt 6920s. I have spare bolts and parts. I’m 40. They’ll be effective longer than I will.
For some of us - It only took a single 6920 for us to figure out there was better stuff out there to be had... :)
bamashooter
06-02-21, 06:40
For some of us - It only took a single 6920 for us to figure out there was better stuff out there to be had... :)
Oh yeah; better stuff indeed. Like my little hybrid.
https://i.imgur.com/gQLCfd7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FdEshvZ.jpg
DPMS Hybrid Left-Hand A2 Upper Rcvr / Rear Sight / Deflector on non-ejection port right-hand side
Black Creek Precision Lower Rcvr
PSA / FN mid-length 16" barrel and assembly (fsb / delta assembly / A2 flash hider)
DPMS right-hand bolt carrier (Hybrid)
Stag left-hand complete bolt assembly / cam pin
Colt firing pin
RightToBear.com lower parts kit
Cavalry Manufacturing C-1 buttstock and innards
Geissele SSA-E trigger assembly
Smith & Wesson MP10 handguards (mid-length/skinny)
Colt charging handle
Brownells gas tube and roll pin
ALG/Geissele Go-Juice Lubricant where needed (imo)
AeroShell Grease 64 (formerly AeroShell 33MS) (barrel nut)
Sweet shooter
Oh yeah; better stuff indeed. Like my little hybrid.
https://i.imgur.com/gQLCfd7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FdEshvZ.jpg
DPMS Hybrid Left-Hand A2 Upper Rcvr / Rear Sight / Deflector on non-ejection port right-hand side
Black Creek Precision Lower Rcvr
PSA / FN mid-length 16" barrel and assembly (fsb / delta assembly / A2 flash hider)
DPMS right-hand bolt carrier (Hybrid)
Stag left-hand complete bolt assembly / cam pin
Colt firing pin
RightToBear.com lower parts kit
Cavalry Manufacturing C-1 buttstock and innards
Geissele SSA-E trigger assembly
Smith & Wesson MP10 handguards (mid-length/skinny)
Colt charging handle
Brownells gas tube and roll pin
ALG/Geissele Go-Juice Lubricant where needed (imo)
AeroShell Grease 64 (formerly AeroShell 33MS) (barrel nut)
Sweet shooter
That is friggin sweet!!!!
Love that oldschool look!
For some of us - It only took a single 6920 for us to figure out there was better stuff out there to be had... :)
Well.... Based on a 6920...
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-4rwtRvW/0/X2/i-4rwtRvW-X2.jpg
Well.... Based on a 6920...
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-4rwtRvW/0/X2/i-4rwtRvW-X2.jpg
That is nice, I like the two tone color.
Unless I just missed it, no one mentioned the sight radius on the 20" rifle. It's way easier for me to get 500 yard hits with Rifle sight radius than carbine.
Gas impulse is less of a problem these days with correctly gassed short barrels available.
You missed the days when I could shoot irons at 500. My ocular equipment ain’t cuttin it these days. :haha:
People who master irons are like kids who get perfect attendance in school. It’s neat and all, and I’m sure your mom is proud of you.
But nobody really cares in later life.
https://savannaharsenal.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/fixed-carry-handle-acog.jpg?w=800
https://www.internationalsportsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/DSC_0997.jpg
Well.... Based on a 6920...
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-4rwtRvW/0/X2/i-4rwtRvW-X2.jpg
Who makes this MLok handguard?
Who makes this MLok handguard?
Geissele MK14
ExplorinInTheWoods
06-03-21, 06:56
So a couple months ago I went to check zeros on some guns, they were some SP1’s, one carbine and one rifle, I had inherited from my dad. I also had to re zero my offset RMR after changing the battery. It had been a while I had shot a rifle length gas rifle but the lightweight 20in SP1 was softer than my 16in mid length with a warcomp. After that I’ve toyed with the idea of getting a newer 20in rifle length.
You missed the days when I could shoot irons at 500. My ocular equipment ain’t cuttin it these days. :haha:
I'm at the tail end of this. I shoot it every few weekends to try to make sure I can still do it. A big sigh of relief each time I get a hit.
The A4, for me, will be remembered as a heavy pig. I’m glad I only really had to carry it when I was ~20, and only at school. Even though its probably lighter than most any gun I mess with today, thanks to optics, flashlights, IR shit, suppressors, etc. Now the A1......🥰
Could always split the difference and do a 605 clone or maybe a modernized 605 with a light FF handguard.
Talk about heavy, mine was a 203, I used a padded machine gun sling with front sight hook and the rear top strap adapter.
Talk about heavy, mine was a 203, I used a padded machine gun sling with front sight hook and the rear top strap adapter.
Bro, I’d talk my way into Weapons Squad at that point.
The A4, for me, will be remembered as a heavy pig. I’m glad I only really had to carry it when I was ~20, and only at school. Even though its probably lighter than most any gun I mess with today, thanks to optics, flashlights, IR shit, suppressors, etc. Now the A1......🥰
Could always split the difference and do a 605 clone or maybe a modernized 605 with a lighter FF handguard.
18” barrel rifle gas and perhaps an A1 length stock?
I have this idea for a build that is essentially a not necessarily accurized Mk12 but without a scope.
I’m sick of the carbine rat race
18” barrel rifle gas and perhaps an A1 length stock?
I have this idea for a build that is essentially a not necessarily accurized Mk12 but without a scope.
I’m sick of the carbine rat race
I have the exact weapon you speak of. A1 stock and 18” Faxon barrel that another member graciously donated. It is the exact same weight as the 16” pencil barrel that it replaced, so definitely not “accurized”. But it works, and is a ton of fun. URX4, of course. It’s my “combat gamer gun”, complete with a godawful brake. Sometimes I shoot it with irons, sometimes LPVO. Just a toy, but could be pressed into service seamlessly. I’d just crack the gas block open another click, and put the standard rifle buffer back in it.
18” barrel rifle gas and perhaps an A1 length stock?
I have this idea for a build that is essentially a not necessarily accurized Mk12 but without a scope.
I’m sick of the carbine rat race
I’ve had an FN 18” barrel kicking around for years. Originally I was going to use it for some kind of free floated DMR-ish project but I ended up just getting a complete upper for that last year, so I think now I’ll eventually just get an FSB pinned on the 18” and put together a slightly shortened A4 type gun.
I'd seriously like to build a 20" gun off a 20" Criterion Core barrel with FSB and A5 as a range blaster. Not super "tactical", but it would be awesome.
The A4's front heavy feel would really manifest it midway through a week of shooting during the final stages of a COF that requires snap firing from low ready or prolonged holding on target. Running the same stages with an A2 would have the A2 feeling light and well balanced.
People who master irons are like kids who get perfect attendance in school. It’s neat and all, and I’m sure your mom is proud of you.
But nobody really cares in later life.
https://savannaharsenal.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/fixed-carry-handle-acog.jpg?w=800
https://www.internationalsportsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/DSC_0997.jpg
I’ve had an optic shit a zero on a run and gun I spent a lot of money and time traveling to in 2020. I’m glad I could shoot irons well.
I'd seriously like to build a 20" gun off a 20" Criterion Core barrel with FSB and A5 as a range blaster. Not super "tactical", but it would be awesome.
The A4's front heavy feel would really manifest it midway through a week of shooting during the final stages of a COF that requires snap firing from low ready or prolonged holding on target. Running the same stages with an A2 would have the A2 feeling light and well balanced.
An A2 and an A4 would weigh almost exactly the same. The only weight difference is between the fixed and detachable carry handles.
Are you reading my mind? I just ordered a Magpul A1 stock and in the process of picking an 18" barrel.
18” barrel rifle gas and perhaps an A1 length stock?
I have this idea for a build that is essentially a not necessarily accurized Mk12 but without a scope.
I’m sick of the carbine rat race
An A2 and an A4 would weigh almost exactly the same. The only weight difference is between the fixed and detachable carry handles.
The A2s I use have the round plastic handguard vs the giant cheese grater on the A4. I definitely notice the added weight on the front end of the A4. Not ground breaking in difference, but noticable, especially after multiple days. Post 29 vs the bottom picture of post 34 in this thread gives a good visual comparison of the two set-ups, if they were both 20" barrels.
The M5 RAS is just a drop-in rail. An A4 can use the round plastic handguards too.
The M5 RAS is just a drop-in rail. An A4 can use the round plastic handguards too.
Absolutely. I'm referring to my experiences with the two models. Running just irons on the A2 has always felt way lighter than when I run an A4 with the rail and ACOG. It'd be neat to build nicely balanced 20" gun inspired by them and keep it lightweight.
I’ve had an optic shit a zero on a run and gun I spent a lot of money and time traveling to in 2020. I’m glad I could shoot irons well.
Was it an ACOG or a flavor of the month LPVO, sir?
I specifically posted ACOG for a reason. I have never had one go wonky on me and for an A4, I would want the 3.5. I’m willing to give up .5 magnification for some super forgiving eye relief.
I’m not saying “don’t know irons”. I’m just saying at my age, peeping down A2 style irons is not my idea of fun. A1 irons, sure because it’s part of the fun (plus I have a Colt scope for when I don’t feel like ‘Nam larping)
Are you reading my mind? I just ordered a Magpul A1 stock and in the process of picking an 18" barrel.
Maybe. My first thought is if I am investing my own time and money then I want to be comfortable. I used to be the guy who would clone my work guns and thankfully outgrew it. For personal purposes, I just want to launch a .223 comfortably and consistently.
Magpul A1 would definitely be my choice and is on my to do list after I finish my AR10 build
Absolutely. I'm referring to my experiences with the two models. Running just irons on the A2 has always felt way lighter than when I run an A4 with the rail and ACOG. It'd be neat to build nicely balanced 20" gun inspired by them and keep it lightweight.
BCM QRF 12 is.1oz lighter than the A2 handguards, all hardware included.
That would be an awesome setup with an ACOG.
So I got the PSA "Premium" A4 upper (no CH or BCG, but I have those anyway). It has the FN CHF, chrome lined A2 barrel with flattop upper. I'm going to deconstruct one of the M4geries and use the lower from it. Might even use the ACOG too but I do have a detachable carry handle in my box of parts.
Only thing I don't like AT ALL is the sorry ass oval handguards, like for an M4 but rifle length. They are coming off for sure. F@#$%&g PSA! Who the hell thought that was a good idea? It looks like shit, certainly not "authentic", and doesn't feel the way it should in the hands. Easy enough to fix but that means another damn thing I have to order. :mad: One thing I did not have in my stash was A2 handguards; plenty of carbine ones but none for rifles. Not sure why but this irks me to no end.
That leads to another dilemma, and I knew it was going to be but whistled past the graveyard: Do I just get A2 handguards and put the detachable carry handle on it, or do I get an M5 RAS and throw the ACOG on there? [see, this is part of the sickness :fie:]
BCM QRF 12 is.1oz lighter than the A2 handguards, all hardware included.
You sure about that? Per BCM's website the QRF 12 weighs about 14oz with hardware (11oz handguard alone). Standard M16A2 plastic handguards weight about 8oz.
So I got the PSA "Premium" A4 upper (no CH or BCG, but I have those anyway). It has the FN CHF, chrome lined A2 barrel with flattop upper. I'm going to deconstruct one of the M4geries and use the lower from it. Might even use the ACOG too but I do have a detachable carry handle in my box of parts.
Only thing I don't like AT ALL is the sorry ass oval handguards, like for an M4 but rifle length. They are coming off for sure. F@#$%&g PSA! Who the hell thought that was a good idea? It looks like shit, certainly not "authentic", and doesn't feel the way it should in the hands. Easy enough to fix but that means another damn thing I have to order. :mad: One thing I did not have in my stash was A2 handguards; plenty of carbine ones but none for rifles. Not sure why but this irks me to no end.
I got one of those from PSA a good while back but 'cept with their charging handle and BCG.
You did good skipping their BCG in my opinion. The one that came in my upper was rough as hell where it mattered most (dings in the damn rails no less). It was salvageable but still pisses me off that it even had to be repaired before it was fit for use. Screw PSA and their blind ass QC monkeys that let crap like that out the door.
Like yours mine came with those shitty oval handguards. They promptly went in the trash and were replaced with a set of standard Colt guards I found at Brownells. Night and day difference between the fit and feel...
Do yourself a favor and check your barrel nut torque. (Remove and reinstall)
It may be an FN barrel but the idiots at PSA assembled the parts and who knows if it was done correctly or not. If your remove and reinstall yourself - You will know for sure things were done correctly and to your satisfaction.
18” barrel rifle gas and perhaps an A1 length stock?
I have this idea for a build that is essentially a not necessarily accurized Mk12 but without a scope.
I’m sick of the carbine rat race
I decided to give that a try about 2 years ago. 18" Faxon Gunner barrel with a Cav Arms A1 stock. Put a simple ALG light weight tube on the front and right now it's got a 1-4x AccuPower. Shoots very soft. Debating if I want to drop on an ACOG TA33 instead.
You sure about that? Per BCM's website the QRF 12 weighs about 14oz with hardware (11oz handguard alone). Standard M16A2 plastic handguards weight about 8oz.
Add the barrel nut, spring, ring, and end cap and they come out to about 14.3oz. I think the carbine handguards alone are a little under 8, rifles are 12.
I weighed the carbine stuff last year when I replaced double heat shield handguards with a QRF7. The QRF was almost 1/2 oz lighter altogether.
Add the barrel nut, spring, ring, and end cap and they come out to about 14.3oz. I think the carbine handguards alone are a little under 8, rifles are 12.
I weighed the carbine stuff last year when I replaced double heat shield handguards with a QRF7. The QRF was almost 1/2 oz lighter altogether.Good info. Thanks.
I have one of those uppers and I put on a centurion arms C4 rail. It’s a sweet shooter
65900
So I got the PSA "Premium" A4 upper (no CH or BCG, but I have those anyway). It has the FN CHF, chrome lined A2 barrel with flattop upper. I'm going to deconstruct one of the M4geries and use the lower from it. Might even use the ACOG too but I do have a detachable carry handle in my box of parts.
Only thing I don't like AT ALL is the sorry ass oval handguards, like for an M4 but rifle length. They are coming off for sure. F@#$%&g PSA! Who the hell thought that was a good idea? It looks like shit, certainly not "authentic", and doesn't feel the way it should in the hands. Easy enough to fix but that means another damn thing I have to order. :mad: One thing I did not have in my stash was A2 handguards; plenty of carbine ones but none for rifles. Not sure why but this irks me to no end.
That leads to another dilemma, and I knew it was going to be but whistled past the graveyard: Do I just get A2 handguards and put the detachable carry handle on it, or do I get an M5 RAS and throw the ACOG on there? [see, this is part of the sickness :fie:]
I have one of those uppers and I put on a centurion arms C4 rail. It’s a sweet shooter
65900
Those C4 Rails are nice. I have one that my Daughter claimed soon as I got it, now I gotta get myself another one. 🤣
The a4 type [the rifle] is much nicer to shoot. Not as tacticool as a carbine though.
I decided to give that a try about 2 years ago. 18" Faxon Gunner barrel with a Cav Arms A1 stock. Put a simple ALG light weight tube on the front and right now it's got a 1-4x AccuPower. Shoots very soft. Debating if I want to drop on an ACOG TA33 instead.
Do it. An A4 with a comfy long eye relief equals good times. I like LPVOs conceptually but I am a simply man of simple tastes
The a4 type [the rifle] is much nicer to shoot. Not as tacticool as a carbine though.
Screw being cool. I want to be comfortable.
Cool is a sports car that pleases other people. Comfy is a Japanese SUV/truck with good gas mileage that just works.
All else being equal a good honest A1 stock is way nicer than a carbine stock
Screw being cool. I want to be comfortable.
Cool is a sports car that pleases other people. Comfy is a Japanese SUV/truck with good gas mileage that just works.
All else being equal a good honest A1 stock is way nicer than a carbine stock
PREACH! 100% Truth!
BCM QRF 12 is.1oz lighter than the A2 handguards, all hardware included.
That would be an awesome setup with an ACOG.
That's excellent news! Looks like I have another BCM rail in my future...
That leads to another dilemma, and I knew it was going to be but whistled past the graveyard: Do I just get A2 handguards and put the detachable carry handle on it, or do I get an M5 RAS and throw the ACOG on there? [see, this is part of the sickness :fie:]
Its not clone correct, but I would vote ACOG and A2 (or Magpul rifle) handguards.
Andy
Leonidas24
06-07-21, 22:44
Screw being cool. I want to be comfortable.
Cool is a sports car that pleases other people. Comfy is a Japanese SUV/truck with good gas mileage that just works.
All else being equal a good honest A1 stock is way nicer than a carbine stock
At the very least it doesn't pluck beard hairs à la VLTOR IMOD or Magpul CTR.
Is there any distinct upper hand a full-sized A4 might have over an M4?
Around 230 fps, and about 3 inches of maximum ordinate when zeroed at 350 yards/meters.
Everything else is going to be subjective.
Around 230 fps, and about 3 inches of maximum ordinate when zeroed at 350 yards/meters.
Everything else is going to be subjective.
That's pretty damn "flat" for that distance (for 5.56mm anyway); no doubt that extra 230fps over an M4 is responsible for that.
That's pretty damn "flat" for that distance (for 5.56mm anyway); no doubt that extra 230fps over an M4 is responsible for that.
He’s talking about the difference in max ords. The exact value for either gun is definitely more than 3” at that range.
He’s talking about the difference in max ords. The exact value for either gun is definitely more than 3” at that range.
So you're saying the A4 has 3 inches less max ord (i.e. "rise") than the M4, not that the A4 itself has a 3" rise with that zero?
Yeah I looked up data for the M855 and the M16 20" barrel and it's like 5" or so above line of sight to zero at 300m, so I'd imagine a tad more for 350m. Did not look at M4 numbers.
So you're saying the A4 has 3 inches less max ord (i.e. "rise") than the M4, not that the A4 itself has a 3" rise with that zero?
Yeah I looked up data for the M855 and the M16 20" barrel and it's like 5" or so above line of sight to zero at 300m, so I'd imagine a tad more for 350m. Did not look at M4 numbers.
Yessir; that sounds like the right neighborhood. I think max ord occurs somewhere around 200m for Lysander’s target.
This is why I have a 16" barrel. Bridge the gap between 14.5 an 20, perfectly.
Absolutely. I'm referring to my experiences with the two models. Running just irons on the A2 has always felt way lighter than when I run an A4 with the rail and ACOG. It'd be neat to build nicely balanced 20" gun inspired by them and keep it lightweight.
The A4 would be much better with an A1 stock and a different barrel profile. The A2 barrel is probably the worst profile ever.
Is there any distinct upper hand a full-sized A4 might have over an M4?
I could easily convert a franken-M4 I have to the full-sized configuration. Yeah, I need it like another hole in my head but you guys know the deal with this affliction. ;)There definitely is!
An A4 shooting GI M855A1 Ball will take E-type targets to 500. Brand-new M4A1 SOCOM-barrel GI Carbines issued to ROTC Cadets (either weapon with an issue ACOG) patterns bigger at 400 and 500. If there's any wind at 400 and 500 the A1's velocity decay gives the advantage to the A4.
Current National Match rules from 2015 acknowledge you get the best of both guns by putting an A4-type upper with an ACOG magnification equivalent on an M4 lower. This configuration wins at Camp Perry, and average scores are creeping up over the years with a scope. Scores at the Army Championships (shot with a shorter M4 but with an ACOG) are about the same as when we shot irons.
In the old iron-sight A2 handle days the rules said the rifle's exterior set-up had to look like an A2 but you could use an A1 butt (which I did, since I have the vertical stature of a panda).
Under the new rules I re-purposed the rifle that took me from nothing to Distinguished Rifleman and into the President's Hundred by keeping the barrel, trigger, and lower -- swapping the upper (for a flat-top), and free-float tube and A2 guards for a Larue rail. On my National Match gun I use a Vltor A5 extension, an XH heavy buffer (for a little weight balance, to save abuse on my brass, and for some perceived recoil reduction) and an LWRC Compact butt stock.
If you build a flat-top upper with a 1-7 twist M16A1 barrel on an M4 lower you get a decent hybrid (you could trim it to 18-inch SPR length and not sacrifice too much velocity). Not too heavy, ungainly, or unbalanced, you gain velocity, and you can collapse the stock for mobility until you need to shoot (plus you can adjust length-of-pull fit to your clothes, gear, and height).
Putting an A4 upper as-is on to an M4 lower works. Use an H3 buffer (like the Army's own approved modification).
There definitely is!
An A4 shooting GI M855A1 Ball will take E-type targets to 500. Brand-new M4A1 SOCOM-barrel GI Carbines issued to ROTC Cadets (either weapon with an issue ACOG) patterns bigger at 400 and 500. If there's any wind at 400 and 500 the A1's velocity decay gives the advantage to the A4.
Current National Match rules from 2015 acknowledge you get the best of both guns by putting an A4-type upper with an ACOG magnification equivalent on an M4 lower.
In the old iron-sight A2 handle days when the rules said the rifle's exterior set-up had to look like an A2 you could use an A1 butt (which I did, since I have the vertical stature of a panda). Under the new rules I use an A5 extension with an XH heavy buffer and an LWRC compact butt.
If you build a flat-top upper with a 1-7 twist M16A1 barrel on an M4 lower you get a decent hybrid (you could trim it to 18-inch SPR length and not sacrifice too much velocity). Not too heavy, you gain velocity, and you can collapse the stock for mobility until you need to shoot (plus you can adjust length-of-pull fit to your clothes, gear, and height.
Which 20" barrel did you choose? I'm hoping to snag a Criterion Core 20" for a configuration like this.
My Colt A4 has a Vltor carbine extension, carbine spring, H2 or H6 buffer, Vltor Modstock, carry handle sights, and KAC rail. With 62 gr CBC it carries downrange very well. I use 6920s mostly, but that A4 is like shooting a Cadillac. When I was younger an A2 was my weapon of choice, I wish I still had one.
My old re-purposed rifle has a Krieger, my primary gun has a Satern (Liberty) that Keith Stephens won as a trophy for winning the President's Hundred.
I flat-topped a rack A4 look-a-like with a Brownells 1-7 M16A1 barrel and a drop-in/ no-gunsmithing Daniel Defense Omega 12.0 rail.
I traded my old pull-off National Match A2 parts for a Criterion barrel with 500 rounds down it. White Oak and Primary Arms have smooth 12-inch M-Lok float tubes for around $135, and you can get BCM full quad-rails from Primary when they go on sale for around $175.
People who master irons are like kids who get perfect attendance in school. It’s neat and all, and I’m sure your mom is proud of you.
But nobody really cares in later life.
https://savannaharsenal.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/fixed-carry-handle-acog.jpg?w=800
https://www.internationalsportsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/DSC_0997.jpg
That bottom pic is hotness.
I think the A1 is the best 20" configuration. They got it right pretty quickly. The A2 was kind of a goofy setup, largely a target shooting version that tickled the Marine Corps' beans. That said, I have an A3/A4 clone and it is a fun rifle. I'd forgotten how heavy they are though, especially if adding rails and optics.
indianalex01
09-23-21, 08:54
For some of us - It only took a single 6920 for us to figure out there was better stuff out there to be had... :)
6920 is solid. The gold standard. I have an A1 and A4. Solid guns but the 6920 is the go to rifle. Recoil?? It’s a freaking 223/556. What recoil
indianalex01
09-23-21, 08:58
I think the A1 is the best 20" configuration. They got it right pretty quickly. The A2 was kind of a goofy setup, largely a target shooting version that tickled the Marine Corps' beans. That said, I have an A3/A4 clone and it is a fun rifle. I'd forgotten how heavy they are though, especially if adding rails and optics.
What is goofy about it? It’s has way better sights. It will run circles around an A1 at longer ranges. It’s goofy but yet you have one.. ������. That about narrows it down.
What is goofy about it? It’s has way better sights. It will run circles around an A1 at longer ranges. It’s goofy but yet you have one.. ������. That about narrows it down.
Never been shooting both ways, but I assume it is from a practical angle.
Gets hard to ID people out in public(not trying to conceal themselves in anyway) at distances past the A1 short range aperture(which also is maxing out M193 effective range while recognizing an opponent with a .224 hole in them is usually going to be less effective than mint). A red dot has only the one sight setting, but is easier to use than A1/A2 sights within ranges where most can really see what they are shooting at.
Magnified optics with BDC are obviously a game changer on at least getting a hole in the target at extended ranges for most people, eyesight being a factor of course.
What is goofy about it? It’s has way better sights. It will run circles around an A1 at longer ranges. It’s goofy but yet you have one.. ������. That about narrows it down.
The only people taking advantage of the A2 sights are people shooting at targets. I prefer the A1 sights myself, although the A2 sights are nice.
The A2 barrel profile is goofy as hell. I could see wanting to add a little weight to the A1 barrel profile, but I wouldn’t make the chamber end skinny and the muzzle end heavy. Goofy, retarted what ever you want to call it. The worst barrel profile ever.
The A2 stock was a step backwards as well.
The Canadians preferred the A1 rear sights to the A2 for their C7.
The only people taking advantage of the A2 sights are people shooting at targets. I prefer the A1 sights myself, although the A2 sights are nice.
The A2 barrel profile is goofy as hell. I could see wanting to add a little weight to the A1 barrel profile, but I wouldn’t make the chamber end skinny and the muzzle end heavy. Goofy, retarted what ever you want to call it. The worst barrel profile ever.
The A2 stock was a step backwards as well.
If I recall correctly the A2 barrel profile rationale was a legit goof based on the false assumption a barrel straightness gauge stopping around the front sight was caused by bending from bayonet testing when it was actually due to a gas port burr that would build up with copper jacket.
A2 butt is too long for me too.
I like the round forearm better, but the 20" round profile had already been in existence since the late 1960's although guessing those early ones were of A1 material rather than A2 which is more durable like the material switch on the butts proved to be.
Hammer_Man
09-24-21, 14:09
Larry Vickers once said something to the effect that for range days he enjoys shooting the M16, but if he had to carry a rifle all day he’d grab an M4. My personal experience mimics that sentiment. I love shooting the M16, especially on 300 meter qual days. It’s much softer shooting than an M4, allowing me to make quicker follow up shots if needed. Sights radius is longer, which I find requires less effort to line up a shot. Added bonus, the butt stock is a handy place to store a cleaning kit. The downside is that it can be a pain in the ass to carry around, especially when you have to get in and out of tactical vehicles frequently, and the fixed stock is a bit too long for a lot of people.
What is goofy about it? It’s has way better sights. It will run circles around an A1 at longer ranges. It’s goofy but yet you have one.. ������. That about narrows it down.
The A2's rear sight reminds me of the M1 Garand or M14 sights. Obviously not exactly the same but in principle they are very similar. Awesome if you have time to estimate range, know your dope, and make sight adjustments. With rounds zipping past your head I would think it's practical usefulness is kind of moot at that point.
I wonder how many WWII, Korea, and Vietnam vets actually did "clicking" while in a firefight. Yeah, you see an NVA at 500 meters at the edge of a jungle clearing and he doesn't know you're there, go for it! But that same NVA inside 100 meters (and his buddies) throwing a shitload of 7.62x39 rounds between you and the guy next to you, well.....not so much.
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