View Full Version : Looks like I found the next Botach: lapolicegear. Beware cheap ceramic armor plates
TLDR:
I might have known better than to think a $100 6.5lb ceramic plate would be a good purchase. (I thought someone figured out a way to mass produce a cheap light plate via HDPE and aluminum oxide.)
Plate has a 1" foam spacer all around the edge. How are you going to get that plate high enough to cover the aortic arch?
That said,
the plate is made in china which isn't indicated anywhere on the sales page for it
While measuring 10" x 12", it appears that it only offers of 8" x 10" of actual protection with a 1" foam spacer all the way around it.
The only indication that a potential buyer would have that the plate offers only roughly 8" x 10" of protection is this highlighted cryptic line from the features list on the sales page:
NIJ Level IV Tested
Dimensions: 10" x 11.8"
Thickness: 1 1//8"
Weight: 6.5 lbs
Construction: PE+Alumina (AL2O3)
Single Curve
Stand-Alone and Multi-Hit Capable
1 in. Partial Foam Edge
Polyester/Nylon Cover
5 Year Shelf Life
What the hell does that mean? It appears to mean: 1" all around the edge of the plate, between the inner ballistic material and the outer plastic skin, is non ballistic foam spacer/cushion. It appears to mean: subtract two inches from both dimensions to uncover the secret surprise ballistic dimensions! It's a feature! You get a life saving device, and a surprise! All in the same package! (Return label after receiving gunfire to get the cool decoder ring! Spolier: it spells out W H A T A O R T I C A R C H H A H A)
I contacted them and quickly discovered they know their sales page is deceptive, as well that someone there has been getting a lot of unhappy emails like mine upon finding "made in china" on the plastic wrap.
I tried to leave a 1 star review on their site. Then I got a funny feeling and decided to try and find my review. Guess what? No review with under 3 stars is visible in the review section, no matter how you filter it.
Buyer beware.
Following image of the plate being discussed snapped from mrgunsandgear to show the one inch foam spacer.
https://i.imgur.com/495ImYg.png
https://i0.wp.com/looserounds.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/thorax_anterior-828x1024.jpg?resize=696%2C861
Roughly what you're getting with these plates:
https://i.imgur.com/yBGz0fk.jpg
https://media1.tenor.com/images/9652ab39c21afed1e3446487d958f8b2/tenor.gif
When I saw that they also don't specify exactly what rounds each plate is rated to stop, I knew chicanery was afoot...
You bought cheap armor from an internet megastore and are surprised it sucks. That’s surprising.
No, more of an opportunity to warn anyone else tempted to try them. I completely missed the major flaws until I got the plates, saw the china tag, and then found a bunch of reviews that didn't show up without "china" as one of the search terms. That's when the foam became apparent to me. I did research before buying, just not enough. None of the youtube people shooting them apart noted the foam spacer or its implications for how the plate would ride in a plate pocket.
The 1" foam spacer makes the plates useless, in my opinion. Can't get them high enough to cover the aortic arch.
I thought MrGunsandGear discussed the foam border in his review, but its been a while since I saw it.
I just could not see my way into buying the imported plates. Body Armor Outlet has US made level 4 plates at a price close to LAPG's level 3+. https://www.bodyarmoroutlet.com/collections/hard-armor-plates/products/copy-of-bao-tactical-pair-of-4400gl-level-iv-sa-hard-armor-plates-shooters-cut-single-curve-10x12
Unfortunately, their level III + plates are more expensive and I don't know if they have a border on their plates as well.
Andy
SomeOtherGuy
06-11-21, 21:27
Good to know. Haven't bought from LAPG in years but they have/had good deals on their house brand pants. I'm still using pants from 8+ years ago that have seen unknown range sessions, farm work, and wash cycles. I've bought other stuff there in the distant past with no issues.
FWIW, I've never received anything from Botach that was misrepresented or fake. I learned to avoid their house brand, and there have been several orders that I never received (wasn't charged for either) without satisfactory explanation...
I've seen some iffy advertising regarding armor products at DSG Arms, so caveat emptor there also.
turnburglar
06-11-21, 23:30
No, more of an opportunity to warn anyone else tempted to try them. I completely missed the major flaws until I got the plates, saw the china tag, and then found a bunch of reviews that didn't show up without "china" as one of the search terms. That's when the foam became apparent to me. I did research before buying, just not enough. None of the youtube people shooting them apart noted the foam spacer or its implications for how the plate would ride in a plate pocket.
The 1" foam spacer makes the plates useless, in my opinion. Can't get them high enough to cover the aortic arch.
I think you are finding an issue where there isn't one.
You really think if they where able to make a plate in America for less than $100 it wouldn't have MADE IN AMERICA plastered all over? Pro tip: If an item is cheap and doesn't display the origins: It's Asia. Every time. And even still despite its origins these plates are the ONE brand that multiple YouTube'rs have tested to perform above their "claimed" level of performance. In fact these LvL 3 LAPG plates are lighter and have proven to stop more than the Hesco L210 as tested by BUFFman range.
1" foam edge. Please show me a plate that has proven edge performance? I would like to know. MOST plates; even the good ones, struggle with edge hits. Even AR500 struggle with edge hits. Again this is a sub $100 plate. If you really want that much piece of mind; go test one yourself. Then come on here and give them a bad review. It seems to me the second you opened the mail and saw China; you went soft on your purchase. That's not LAPG's fault.
Im very happy with my $85 set of 5.2 pound lates that have been tested against 855A1 from a 22" barrel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIb9_7YkqZQ
EDIT: And here is the same tests run on a Hesco L210 by the same guy, using the same equipment. About as Apples to Apples a test as one can find. Apparently M193 and M855A1 slip right through L210's. Was the speed high? Sure. But the LAPG plates you don't seem to care for, handled the threats just fine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ULXQDvXQU
1" foam edge. Please show me a plate that has proven edge performance? I would like to know. MOST plates; even the good ones, struggle with edge hits. Even AR500 struggle with edge hits. Again this is a sub $100 plate. If you really want that much piece of mind; go test one yourself. Then come on here and give them a bad review. It seems to me the second you opened the mail and saw China; you went soft on your purchase. That's not LAPG's fault.
Dude, proven edge performance? The "edge" of these plates, where the iffy edge performance happens, starts one inch in from the edge of the plates. Think about that. That includes the top of the plate, which means you can't get the effective part of the top of the plate anywhere near your sternal notch.
The purpose of a plate is to keep holes from being punched through your torso in places that make you dead right there. The aortic arch, above your heart and below your sternal notch, is one of those places. These plates can't cover that area because of that one inch of foam, unless you've got a carrier that can cinch the plates half way up your throat.
turnburglar
06-12-21, 03:55
That Hesco plate failed an edge hit. Well to be fair that hesco plate failed half of its hits.
Shoot the plate yourself. $100 isn't worth it to validate your fears?
I hate to say it; but you bought hobby grade gear, with professional expectations and have done none of your own testing.
Hardly LAPG's fault.
Five_Point_Five_Six
06-12-21, 10:37
Why are Aimpoints and Eotechs $6-800 while a Horosun is $119?
Why are Surefire and Modlites $250-300 while an Olight is $79?
Why are Hesco plates between $375-1500 while a Chinese plate with no rating and no quality control is $100?
Seems to me you got what you paid for.
There was a video in the "Plate" thread showing excellent results on these. I wonder if they restocked with a different batch.
I picked up a pair of the original offering, but haven't done anything with them. Plates are largely impractical for civilians, and my carrier is loaded with good soft panels.
That Hesco plate failed an edge hit. Well to be fair that hesco plate failed half of its hits.
Shoot the plate yourself. $100 isn't worth it to validate your fears?
I hate to say it; but you bought hobby grade gear, with professional expectations and have done none of your own testing.
Hardly LAPG's fault.
Dude, are you associated with LAPG or these plates in any way? You've failed to address any of the points I've made and you seem awfully invested in making excuses for them for a guy not personally involved.
LAPG sold flawed shit and marketed it as lifesaving equipment. You don't morally get to do that and then claim "Not my responsibility, people should have known better than to trust me."
I'm personally annoyed, but nothing more. $200 isn't going to break me. I'm posting this to warn other people off of their shit because of all the positive reviews it's gotten. According to the professionals I trust on the subject, covering up to the sternal notch is very important and this plate can't do that. Simple as that. How much shit it can stop doesn't even matter if it can't cover all the basic vitals.
Why is this even contentious for anyone? Makes no sense.
I re-read your concerns and see what you're saying now. It's not the performance, but the coverage of vital areas. Good to know. for those using these.
I'll draw attention to the following diagram. This is what a plate must cover to do its job. Imagine one inch with no ballistic coverage at the top of the plate, and then come down another half inch or so to account for the 'edge performance issue' of the ceramic.
https://i0.wp.com/looserounds.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/thorax_anterior-828x1024.jpg?resize=696%2C861
https://i.imgur.com/yBGz0fk.jpg
I re-read your concerns and see what you're saying now. It's not the performance, but the coverage of vital areas. Good to know. for those using these.
That's it man. That's all I'm saying, ha.
I really hate communication via text like this. Humans aren't made for it. No tone and too much room for misinterpretation. Not mention that we all aren't the best at reading comprehension or effective written communication.
There was a video in the "Plate" thread showing excellent results on these. I wonder if they restocked with a different batch.
I picked up a pair of the original offering, but haven't done anything with them. Plates are largely impractical for civilians, and my carrier is loaded with good soft panels.
You can push an icepick into the side of the plate and see how deep the foam goes.
Buy good shit. Not the best you can afford. You can either afford it, or not.
I neither like nor dislike LAPG. I have bought some stuff from them before and have been pleased, but it takes forever in a day to ship and their customer service has been less than stellar.
That said, I agree with you with the lack of documentation on their part regarding the plates, and with the issue regarding true size.
I think you are finding an issue where there isn't one....
1" foam edge. Please show me a plate that has proven edge performance? I would like to know. MOST plates; even the good ones, struggle with edge hits. Even AR500 struggle with edge hits......
Invested much? :laugh:
Yeah, plates 'struggle' with edge hits.... at least they HAVE an edge to hit, instead of however much foam before you get to the ACTUAL edge of the plate which will then 'struggle'. Ergo, the lost critical performance area on these plates is actually GREATER than simply dropping from 10x12 to 8x10, as the actual edge now starts at 8x10, and works it's way in to wherever and edge hit will cease to 'struggle' to be contained. So, I may as well just buy 8x10 plates from any other manufacturer and save some weight while I'm at it...
**Edit, apparently Aries beat me to this explanation...
Apparently M193 and M855A1 slip right through L210's. Was the speed high? Sure. But the LAPG plates you don't seem to care for, handled the threats just fine.
The L210s are also a 1/2 inch 'special threat' plate (apparently already with some known/rumored issues against certain rounds), the LAPGs are what, twice that thick? No johns it had issues with an oddball 22" barrel @45 feet...
Your comparison is invalid. By that logic, I could say that you should all buy Shotstop Poly plates as they will stop 338LM out of a 26" barrel, even though they fail the BFD standards for that round... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du27HvgtOt4)
If it was against other armor of similar weight/thickness/price and outperformed a closer match to itself, I would be inclined to give this comparison more credence, as I would bet against a more realistic competitor you'd see about equal results. In which case, the issue simply comes back to to original issues with false advertising and lack of proper coverage (which should still disqual the LAPG plate from serious use, regardless of the price OR performance).
(For the record, I am not a 'fan' of the L210s and don't own any, and if they really are having legitimate issues stopping advertised rated rounds, they need to be fixed/pulled from the market like the old 3610s. I simply think matching them with the LAPGs for a head to head comparison is BS.)
>>Edit 2 - in the video Turnburglar linked for the L210 test, at 18:23 you can see the plate material goes all the way to the stated width of plate, with Hesco's usual extremely thin foam side strips. Compare with the LAPG for a very simple pictoral explanation of what the issue is here.
That stinks. Appreciate the warning as with the price drops I was seriously considering a set of these. The CCP manufacturing is one thing, but having foam as the protection of the upper area of the plate is not my cup of tea. Given that most carriers Ive played with end up sagging some, that area end up covering some seriously vital areas.
Not quite sure, aside from corner cutting, why one needs foam around the top abs angled surfaces. Who puts their plates down upside down to need that protection??
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Also, the Guard Dog Body Armor plates plates that sell for more look awfully similar. I think I'd be very careful with those as well.
Where's DocGKR? Is he still doing armor testing?
ThirdWatcher
06-15-21, 22:20
I neither like nor dislike LAPG. I have bought some stuff from them before and have been pleased, but it takes forever in a day to ship and their customer service has been less than stellar.
That said, I agree with you with the lack of documentation on their part regarding the plates, and with the issue regarding true size.
I guess you’ve got to know what you’re buying. I’ve had good luck with LAPG in the past although I think they do seem to be out-of-stock of a lot of things. A few years ago I ordered an ACOG for my AR10 during one of their sales. It was back-ordered for about four months but ultimately I did receive it (at the sale price). No worries though, I had more time than money anyway (and still do, for that matter). No experience with armor though.
I'm not into plates so this may sound stupid...and it probably is but here it goes anyway.....
Deceptive advertising aside how big is that arch anyway? I get covering heart, it's pretty big. Lugs obviously make sense and so do a lot of the internal organs. But no one seems to be as worried about neck and head and main artery in the leg and most of those are way bigger and easier to hit then this arch.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
I'm not into plates so this may sound stupid...and it probably is but here it goes anyway.....
Deceptive advertising aside how big is that arch anyway? I get covering heart, it's pretty big. Lugs obviously make sense and so do a lot of the internal organs. But no one seems to be as worried about neck and head and main artery in the leg and most of those are way bigger and easier to hit then this arch.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Apparently I’ve hit some sort of picture quota. Go here: https://images.app.goo.gl/TA3amb5BxS8Fuv9YA
If you get shot in any of that, you’ll probably die fairly quickly, and there is little to be done for you without being co-located with some baller assets. Shot in the neck can be easier to work with.
I just want to say I've bought a lot of pants and shorts from lapg and they where always good and durable. No complaints. No real dog in the debate. If anything sometimes the pants aren't true to size or their a bit baggy, but their newer stuff seems to only be getting better and yet still be cheap.
Saw this mentioned in the great plate debate thread...
I have the level 4 plates from lapg. After looking at this issue with the 1"foam boarder I took one of mine out and I don't believe mine are like that. It could be that that pic was of the front of the plate as the entire plate front seems to have a foam coating or padding over which wrapps around the side.
However when I tap on the from the back (side towards body) it sounds distinctly like a hard surface pretty much out to the edge.
I don't by any means think these are the best plates ever and it was one if Mr Gunsandgear's vids that had me looking at these.
I'd be interested to know if others who have these can feel a foam boarder more than just a thin maybe 1/4" if that. Very well could be different production runs or something like that.
Saw this mentioned in the great plate debate thread...
I have the level 4 plates from lapg. After looking at this issue with the 1"foam boarder I took one of mine out and I don't believe mine are like that. It could be that that pic was of the front of the plate as the entire plate front seems to have a foam coating or padding over which wrapps around the side.
However when I tap on the from the back (side towards body) it sounds distinctly like a hard surface pretty much out to the edge.
I don't by any means think these are the best plates ever and it was one if Mr Gunsandgear's vids that had me looking at these.
I'd be interested to know if others who have these can feel a foam boarder more than just a thin maybe 1/4" if that. Very well could be different production runs or something like that.
The ceramic is on the front, not the back. You're feeling the HDPE on the back or something else. The edge foam is very firm and is 1" thick. There is also a thin 1/4" thick foam over the strike face of the plate, but that's a separate piece.
If you start at the edge of the plate, go inward an inch, push very hard on the front and work your way up and down a little, you can feel where the ceramic starts. You can even feel the breaks between the individual tiles where their edges meet.
If you bought the lvl IV LAPG plates that go for $95-125 dollars, these are what you have.
The_War_Wagon
06-17-21, 07:10
I bought a nice sling from them years ago... & then they promptly stopped carrying it before I could buy some more.
DON'T think I'd buy any plates from them, though. :no:
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