View Full Version : Dependable BCG. Which one?
coolcraigster
06-16-21, 10:26
Need BCG for my 11.5 SBR. Considering BCM, Spikes, DD and Colt. I know those are quality BCG's. I dont want any fancy coating. Just want phosphate and reliability. I just saw a BCM go on gunbroker for $325. Thats ridiculous. I guess someone had to have the BCM logo pretty badly. Can anyone give me reason why one of these is better than another?
everready73
06-16-21, 10:33
This one would ship 7/6-7/20 and just as good as any of the ones you mentioned. It is Sionics and uses needs Ocks screws. Very nice BCG and it is $160. BCM is great too if you can find one in stock
https://sionicsweaponsystems.com/lawenforcement/sionics-bolt-carrier-group-hp-mpi-phosphate/
https://palmettostatearmory.com/blem-toolcraft-5-56-phosphate-mpi-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-no-logo.html
I have had pretty good luck with PSA Premium BCG as well.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/palmetto-state-armory-5-56-premium-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-8779.html
BCM in stock at Rainier Arms if you want it.
coolcraigster
06-16-21, 11:24
BCM in stock at Rainier Arms if you want it.
Ordered. Thanks for the heads up!!!
coolcraigster
06-16-21, 11:30
I cant believe what people pay for stuff on gunbroker. Not sure if its still on there but one guy had an LMT enhanced BCG for $2500.
I cant believe what people pay for stuff on gunbroker. Not sure if its still on there but one guy had an LMT enhanced BCG for $2500.
What? Does that include a gun bearer, or at least a happy ending?
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coolcraigster
06-16-21, 12:37
Here is a KAC sandcutter on there for $2750. And its used.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/902950504
SoLGW usually recommends Microbest, I *think* Sionics and FCD also use Microbest for their BCGs
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Need BCG for my 11.5 SBR. Considering BCM, Spikes, DD and Colt. I know those are quality BCG's. I dont want any fancy coating. Just want phosphate and reliability. I just saw a BCM go on gunbroker for $325. Thats ridiculous. I guess someone had to have the BCM logo pretty badly. Can anyone give me reason why one of these is better than another?
Gunbroker is where you sell, not buy.
BCM BCG in stock right now at Rainier (they are good to go) for $189
https://www.rainierarms.com/bcm-bolt-carrier-group/
Toolcraft.
I like my Toolcraft carriers just as much as I do my Colts and if money was a concern I would go Toolcraft all day long and not be upset about it.
Have seen WAY too many guys online (+ a single personal experience with their crap BCG's) share pictures of turds that came from PSA to ever suggest them to anyone.
titsonritz
06-16-21, 21:53
Gunbroker is where you sell, not buy.
BCM BCG in stock right now at Rainier (they are good to go) for $189
https://www.rainierarms.com/bcm-bolt-carrier-group/
OOS now, that didn't last long.
I'm just glad I picked up a handful of SOLGW BCGs back when they were on sale at PA for $110.
coolcraigster
06-16-21, 22:52
OOS now, that didn't last long.
I'm just glad I picked up a handful of SOLGW BCGs back when they were on sale at PA for $110.
Yep. They gone...
There's nothing special about any of the name brand BCGs, with the exception of Colt. If it's a Colt factory BCG and it has the C on the carrier, C on the underside of the extractor, and the HPT mark on the bolt, that's a pretty airtight case that it's made to the full TDP. I think it's also supposed to have a goldish color extractor spring, but I don't know if the absence of one necessarily negates the possibility of full TDP entirely. Someone might know for sure, but I don't know when they introduced those.
If Colt is unavailable, I think I would honestly just get a Toolcraft. There's enough high round count reports on them that they must be doing something right, especially for that price. I honestly don't know if you can do better in a non full milspec, full TDP bolt for any price. Like I wouldn't necessarily go thinking a BCM or DD is any better.
One way to just completely remove all doubt is to go with either LMT enhanced or KAC E3 (latter is non interchangeable, FYI). That just stops any and all debate before it even starts. The price is way up there though, but honestly in this market, buying a new AR or new AR parts from the current stock, that's the direction I would go. Too many games right now, too many questions left unanswered, and far too many WTF moments in QC lately.
ViniVidivici
06-17-21, 03:58
https://palmettostatearmory.com/blem-toolcraft-5-56-phosphate-mpi-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-no-logo.html
I have had pretty good luck with PSA Premium BCG as well.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/palmetto-state-armory-5-56-premium-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-8779.html
This is the way.
Sad, because the last one I bought was 60!
But the blem at 100 is still worthwhile.
I like my Toolcraft carriers just as much as I do my Colts and if money was a concern I would go Toolcraft all day long and not be upset about it.
Have seen WAY too many guys online (+ a single personal experience with their crap BCG's) share pictures of turds that came from PSA to ever suggest them to anyone.
Some of the BCG that PSA offers are made by Toolcraft. Those are generally what I recommend.
I see you already snagged a BCM, but for other readers info: I typically stick with SOLGW, Sionics, BCM, Centurion Arms, or MA Defense. Can't go wrong with either of those. Colt is of course a good option as well.
BCM BCG in stock right now at Rainier (they are good to go) for $189
See posts #5 and #6
What is the group’s take on Noveske?
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While we had a real president in office I purchased a few spare parts, several BCM bolt carrier groups were among those items.
What is the group’s take on Noveske?
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No one knows who makes what for who on any given day, but I think it was pretty reliable info that they were Continental Machine at one time. Decent bolt to be sure, but you definitely pay dearly for that rebranding. For my money, I'm not paying for a name unless there's something proprietary involved that you can't get elsewhere for less. So it just goes back to my original statement. Toolcraft, Colt, LMT/KAC, depending on what you want to spend. Everything else is pretty much smoke and mirrors far as I can tell.
titsonritz
06-18-21, 00:38
I have BCM, Colt, SIONICS and SOLGW, all have been 100%.
Its been said many times here before, but Toolcraft makes bolt carriers, not bolts. Buying a Toolcraft BCG does not guarantee a high or low quality bolt, it comes down to the vendor.
PSA appears to have improved their quality and have a solid warranty return but for guaranteed quality I would stick to Colt, BCM, Sionics, etc.
Andy
P.S. I have Toolcraft and PSA BCGs in my household that are fine, but I accepted that I may have to do a warranty exchange when I bought them.
Is there a known source for the carrier assembly? Just the carrier and gas key assembly. Have a few spare bolts and wanted to pick up a carrier or two.
Its been said many times here before, but Toolcraft makes bolt carriers, not bolts. Buying a Toolcraft BCG does not guarantee a high or low quality bolt, it comes down to the vendor.
I just got off the phone with Toolcraft. It is true that they do not manufacture their bolts or cam pins. They would not tell me who they source them from, but said that they are milspec and top quality that have a lifetime warranty on them like the carrier.
I just got off the phone with Toolcraft. It is true that they do not manufacture their bolts or cam pins. They would not tell me who they source them from, but said that they are milspec and top quality that have a lifetime warranty on them like the carrier.
I am not questioning Toolcraft's quality.
Toolcraft sells carriers to vendors as well as complete BCGs. A vendor can sell a Toolcraft carrier with their own bolt - the way some descriptions are worded the customer would not know.
I have 2 "Toolcraft" BCGs - one is nitride and I am confident its a complete Toolcraft unit; one is phosphate and the vendor supplied a HPT/MPI C158 bolt in the Toolcraft carrier (clear in the description).
Andy
I am not questioning Toolcraft's quality.
Toolcraft sells carriers to vendors as well as complete BCGs. A vendor can sell a Toolcraft carrier with their own bolt - the way some descriptions are worded the customer would not know.
I have 2 "Toolcraft" BCGs - one is nitride and I am confident its a complete Toolcraft unit; one is phosphate and the vendor supplied a HPT/MPI C158 bolt in the Toolcraft carrier (clear in the description).
Andy
I get it. I have a couple Toolcraft BCG and like them. I also have a few BCM, PSA, JP and Aero Precision. I have had good luck with all so far.
I'll just leave this here along with some very recent customer feedback on our M4A1 BCG (https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-M4A1-Bolt-Carrier-Group-C158-HPT-MPI-Auto-p61518551).
THE most important aspect for proper function is dimensional accuracy.
Take a set of gauges to XYZ brand and you'll be shocked at how many examples are either out of spec or at the upper limit of tolerance in the critical areas of the gas key and bolt tail bore.
This is especially true with coatings/finishes/treatments other than mil-spec, where coating thickness (or lack thereof) is often not properly accounted for.
That's the biggest difference between all these vendors and why all BCGs are NOT created equal.
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/1643559957.jpg
You guys did amazing.
Very fast shipping for the current climate we're in and the BCG gauges out to be the most gas efficient bolt carrier group I have.
Everything was to spec and the only gauge that didn't read perfect was one of the three bore values and it was 0.001 off of exactly what it should have been but still gets the SOTAR "green" rating for passing.
The staking on the gas key was great and I cannot be happier with the quality for the price paid.
I've recommended you guys to people before and this is my first product from you but won't be my last.
crusader377
06-18-21, 10:22
I think as long as you don't try to buy some unknown bargain basement BCG, I think most from reputable manufacturers will work for. I admit the sample size of my experience is limited, M16A2 and Colt M4 (Military), and three personal rifles Charles Daly M4 (AR-15 BCG), a build using a rainier arms M16 BCG, and a BCM.
All of my rifles run equally as well.
I get it. I have a couple Toolcraft BCG and like them. I also have a few BCM, PSA, JP and Aero Precision. I have had good luck with all so far.
I swear it didn't sound so "preachy" when I wrote it.
I'll just leave this here along with some very recent customer feedback on our M4A1 BCG (https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-M4A1-Bolt-Carrier-Group-C158-HPT-MPI-Auto-p61518551).
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/1643559957.jpg
Would it kill the folks who sell BCGs to mark them on the side away from the ejector port?
BRT is consistent quality, always.
Andy
I swear it didn't sound so "preachy" when I wrote it.
It did not come across as preachy to me. All good.
ViniVidivici
06-18-21, 12:41
I would also add surplus ammo & arms. Got one of their bolts in a rifle, runs perfect.
FN makes a good BCG. Same quality as any Colt.
It’s there a consensus on Nickel Boron? I have one in a 300blk SBR I rarely shoot and have had zero issues. I have an 11.5 5.56 gun that will not completely lock up when it’s filthy(always suppressed) after a reload using a phosphate BCG. The phosphate one runs fine when it’s taken a CLP bath, it’s just obnoxious with the oil burn off.
I have several PSA BCG’s and they all work fine. I’m thinking about getting a PSA NiB, but there are all sorts of internet rumors about NiB “flaking” etc…
I do think they run slicker and I wouldn’t have to worry about using my forward assist when dirty.
It’s there a consensus on Nickel Boron? I have one in a 300blk SBR I rarely shoot and have had zero issues. I have an 11.5 5.56 gun that will not completely lock up when it’s filthy(always suppressed) after a reload using a phosphate BCG. The phosphate one runs fine when it’s taken a CLP bath, it’s just obnoxious with the oil burn off.
I have several PSA BCG’s and they all work fine. I’m thinking about getting a PSA NiB, but there are all sorts of internet rumors about NiB “flaking” etc…
I do think they run slicker and I wouldn’t have to worry about using my forward assist when dirty.
I have run PSA BCGs with no issues. But for about the same price, on the PSA website, they sell the Toolcraft NiB BCG.
How do you store your spare BCGs?
I keep them oiled in ziplock bags with the rest of the spare parts, in ammo cans. No rust so far, but not sure about it for long term storage.
How do you store your spare BCGs?
I keep them oiled in ziplock bags with the rest of the spare parts, in ammo cans. No rust so far, but not sure about it for long term storage.
That is how I store mine, oil really good and I will put them in a ziploc. I do check on them about every 6 weeks or so, me checking on them is more out of habit than anything else.
I am not questioning Toolcraft's quality.
Toolcraft sells carriers to vendors as well as complete BCGs. A vendor can sell a Toolcraft carrier with their own bolt - the way some descriptions are worded the customer would not know.
I have 2 "Toolcraft" BCGs - one is nitride and I am confident its a complete Toolcraft unit; one is phosphate and the vendor supplied a HPT/MPI C158 bolt in the Toolcraft carrier (clear in the description).
Andy
They also sell raw carriers to some vendors.
Why I refuse to buy anything Toolcraft from PSA ever. Those bozos are the king of misleading advertisements. Yeah, the carrier may be Toolcraft but who did the finish on it and who supplied the bolt??? If the entire thing was made / supplied by Toolcraft - PSA would clearly state as much in their ads. Them NOT stating as much speaks volumes...
Other more reputable vendors like RTB will clearly state in their descriptions that the item is 100% Toolcraft and backed by their warranty.
but there are all sorts of internet rumors about NiB “flaking” etc…
I do think they run slicker and I wouldn’t have to worry about using my forward assist when dirty.
This site is one of the ones that helps perpetuate those sort of myths.
Yet not a single member that posts negative comments will share any pictures, or evidence to support their claims...
This site is one of the ones that helps perpetuate those sort of myths.
Yet not a single member that posts negative comments will share any pictures, or evidence to support their claims...
I've not had issues with NIB flaking. That's the nickel teflon that does that. Probably where the confusion lies...
I am not questioning Toolcraft's quality.
Toolcraft sells carriers to vendors as well as complete BCGs. A vendor can sell a Toolcraft carrier with their own bolt - the way some descriptions are worded the customer would not know.
I have 2 "Toolcraft" BCGs - one is nitride and I am confident its a complete Toolcraft unit; one is phosphate and the vendor supplied a HPT/MPI C158 bolt in the Toolcraft carrier (clear in the description).
I have one complete Toolcraft BCG. It is DLC coated, and the bolt checked all the "mil-spec" boxes (except HPT). Brand new, never used it yet. Dipped in EWL and wrapped in a gallon ziplock bag in my parts bin.
This is the one I got a year or two ago: https://www.spicetac.com/blog/toolcraft-dlc-bcg-review-the-best-bcg-ever-made/ (IIRC I paid about half that)
ETA: it appears several of us store our spare BCG's the same way!
FN makes a good BCG. Same quality as any Colt.
Good luck finding one!
Good luck finding one!
They used to be pretty common. They were probably "liberated" though, and of course you never knew how many rounds were on them. They didn't go for big money, but they definitely went for enough that you could buy a brand new Colt BCG and get literally the same thing new for the same price.
They used to be pretty common. They were probably "liberated" though, and of course you never knew how many rounds were on them. They didn't go for big money, but they definitely went for enough that you could buy a brand new Colt BCG and get literally the same thing new for the same price.
Primary Arms has new FN America (I assume a subsidiary of FN Herstal) BCG's in stock for the bargain price of $257. :rolleyes:
Other than the PA offering, perusing several pages of a Google search didn't yield any other ones in stock.
It’s there a consensus on Nickel Boron? I have one in a 300blk SBR I rarely shoot and have had zero issues. I have an 11.5 5.56 gun that will not completely lock up when it’s filthy(always suppressed) after a reload using a phosphate BCG. The phosphate one runs fine when it’s taken a CLP bath, it’s just obnoxious with the oil burn off.
I have several PSA BCG’s and they all work fine. I’m thinking about getting a PSA NiB, but there are all sorts of internet rumors about NiB “flaking” etc…
I do think they run slicker and I wouldn’t have to worry about using my forward assist when dirty.
I have a PSA/Toolcraft BCG that has the DLC or "Diamond Like Coating." It has been a great BCG with no coating issues.
I have a PSA/Toolcraft BCG that has the DLC or "Diamond Like Coating." It has been a great BCG with not coating issues.
Since mine is a spare and I haven't shot it yet, how does the DLC clean up? I'm talking about the notorious bolt tail area where it cakes up. I assume it still requires a little elbow grease, correct?
I have yet to find a finish/coating that doesn't require a little effort on the boat tail.....easiest after all these years is the Cryptic Coatings Mystic Black finish (expensive as hell though). A USGI green plastic "toothbrush" will get the carbon off the boat tail, but it doesn't just "wipe off" with a cloth.
That is how I store mine, oil really good and I will put them in a ziploc. I do check on them about every 6 weeks or so.
Thanks. [emoji1303]
ETA: it appears several of us store our spare BCG's the same way!
I guess several of us do. [emoji1303]
Since mine is a spare and I haven't shot it yet, how does the DLC clean up? I'm talking about the notorious bolt tail area where it cakes up. I assume it still requires a little elbow grease, correct?
I have yet to find a finish/coating that doesn't require a little effort on the boat tail.....easiest after all these years is the Cryptic Coatings Mystic Black finish (expensive as hell though). A USGI green plastic "toothbrush" will get the carbon off the boat tail, but it doesn't just "wipe off" with a cloth.
It cleans up real easy.
Primary Arms has new FN America (I assume a subsidiary of FN Herstal) BCG's in stock for the bargain price of $257. :rolleyes:
Other than the PA offering, perusing several pages of a Google search didn't yield any other ones in stock.
Oh I didn't even realize they had commercial ones. The ones I was talking about were military "surplus." I don't think the commercial ones would be anything special since they can't make them to TDP unless it's for military contract sales.
That is how I store mine, oil really good and I will put them in a ziploc. I do check on them about every 6 weeks or so.
Man if you oiled them and put them in plastic, you don't have to do that. I mean they could get flooded with salt water and be fine. I've pulled surplus stuff out of the original packing grease that human eyes had not seen for many decades, and not once have I ever seen even a hint of rust on anything that was properly stored. If you're getting spare parts, you could probably even just leave them in the original packaging and be fine, because they do that with the intent that they might sit on a shelf for years and years in some distributor warehouse.
Oh I didn't even realize they had commercial ones. The ones I was talking about were military "surplus." I don't think the commercial ones would be anything special since they can't make them to TDP unless it's for military contract sales.
Yeah I didn't either until I saw the ad (maybe like Colt's Defense vs Colt's Manufacturing?). And for the bargain price of $257 no less! Yeah, I don't think so.
Man if you oiled them and put them in plastic, you don't have to do that. I mean they could get flooded with salt water and be fine. I've pulled surplus stuff out of the original packing grease that human eyes had not seen for many decades, and not once have I ever seen even a hint of rust on anything that was properly stored. If you're getting spare parts, you could probably even just leave them in the original packaging and be fine, because they do that with the intent that they might sit on a shelf for years and years in some distributor warehouse.
I check them outta habbit more than anything else. I also went back and edited that so I don't seem like I am doing it for anything else other than I that.
I know very little about NiB vs NP3, except for the basics, and that the internet hates NiB. So, I don’t often mess with NiB. However, if you’d like to see a NiB product that has gotten used, I posted some pics of a Sionics NiB trigger on the last page of this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?209487-Sionics-Enhanced-2-Stage-Trigger/page7&highlight=Sionics%20two%20stage
I also own a FailZero bolt that got shot a good bit a few years back. Otherwise, I usually go for Colt, LMT, Sionics, FCD, BCM, because I’ve had good luck with them so far. I’m sure there are other good ones. I’ve used the NP3 versions of the Sionics and FCD, and am happy with that. I like the increased corrosion resistance because I’m lazy. I’d like to try BRT’s hard chrome one soon. Whatever the LMT superbolt is coated with (chrome, I think) is badass. Like, 30 seconds with hot water and a toothbrush coming clean badass. Obviously phosphate works just fine.
I’d steer clear of a “Toolcraft” BCG that contains a “milspec” nitrided bolt. I’ve learned that the term “milspec” roughly translates to “we made this out of the cheapest garbage we could find, and didn’t bother measuring it. Since the public thinks thats what the military uses, we’ll make it black, and call it that”. Regardless of what “milspec” means, I’ve never encountered a M4 or M16 with a nitrided bolt. I’m not saying that I think nitride is bad, just that “milspec” would be misleading, even if the above isn’t true. It might be great for bolts; I dunno.
At least up until 2020, metallurgy or some other measure of quality seems to have improved since the early 2000s. There’s just not that many bolts breaking anymore, in my anecdotal experience. Most BCG failures I’ve seen lately are just garbage quality. Like loose screws, or bad dimensions. Like Clint said, bolt tails matter, and in more than one way. I’ve had to shuffle FPs in a couple to find one that would pass protrusion. Some also seem to have more blowby than others, but work fine. Bad screws keep being a thing for some reason.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot about ejectors and extractors. For some reason some companies (even expensive ones) insist on shit springs. You’ll never notice with your perfectly gassed 16” middy, but you might see some lame shit if you put that in your suppressed SBR. Read user “Mistwolf”s posts and check your extractor springs. If the extractor springs are suspect, go ahead and swap the ejector spring, too. Might as well order a couple good spare springs right now. The ones that Mistwolf or Iraqgunz recommend.
Gatorgrizz27
06-19-21, 09:05
Being new to AR’s several years ago, I bought into the hype of PSA Premium = Toolcraft and were GTG. I have ~ 1,500 rounds through one of them with no issues, but after learning a bit more and this past year I bought two Sionics BCG’s for my “serious use” rifles, along with upgrading every pin, detent, etc, to the best available.
School of the American Rifle on YouTube will point out the differences in quality, and as has been said, a couple high quality parts, assembled with a bunch of junk small parts by someone who doesn’t know or care isn’t the same final product.
I do agree that many go overboard worrying about “Murphy”, etc, and the idea that a mid-level rifle that has fired 1,000 rounds during range/training use without a problem is suddenly going to choke during firing 6 rounds in a home defense scenario because it isn’t “Tier 1” is paranoid, but as I said, this past year has put things in perspective.
I’ve recently approached it from the standpoint of “what you have now, is what you will have, what your kids will have, and what your grandkids will have”, in regard to quality, quantity, and spare parts. Hopefully I’m wrong.
ViniVidivici
06-19-21, 12:46
Man if you oiled them and put them in plastic, you don't have to do that. I mean they could get flooded with salt water and be fine. I've pulled surplus stuff out of the original packing grease that human eyes had not seen for many decades, and not once have I ever seen even a hint of rust on anything that was properly stored. If you're getting spare parts, you could probably even just leave them in the original packaging and be fine, because they do that with the intent that they might sit on a shelf for years and years in some distributor warehouse.
Indeed, just got another batch of spare parts from UnbrandedAR, they're all sealed in plastic, and very obviously coated. No need to do anything but label and toss in the box.
I love those guys. Great source.
Yeah, I guess that is what’s frustrating. Tons of opinions with little to no actual failures. Honestly, if they work I don’t really care about the measurements and don’t know why I should, except when considering the possibility of failure in the future…
Yeah, I guess that is what’s frustrating. Tons of opinions with little to no actual failures. Honestly, if they work I don’t really care about the measurements and don’t know why I should, except when considering the possibility of failure in the future…
Depends on what you call failures. I’m saying I don’t see a lot of broken bolts, but I do see stoppages and malfunctions.
I know very little about NiB vs NP3, except for the basics, and that the internet hates NiB. So, I don’t often mess with NiB. However, if you’d like to see a NiB product that has gotten used, I posted some pics of a Sionics NiB trigger on the last page of this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?209487-Sionics-Enhanced-2-Stage-Trigger/page7&highlight=Sionics%20two%20stage
Your trigger pictures on the last page at that link - The trigger parts are black. Never seen black colored NiB before...
You sure about that one?
Your trigger pictures on the last page at that link - The trigger parts are black. Never seen black colored NiB before...
You sure about that one?
Yeah, it was silver 10,000 rounds ago.
Yeah, I guess that is what’s frustrating. Tons of opinions with little to no actual failures. Honestly, if they work I don’t really care about the measurements and don’t know why I should, except when considering the possibility of failure in the future…
I had a PSA Premium BCG that went through gas rings like you wouldn't believe. I guess it worked, but a little irritating.
They exchanged it, no problem.
gunnerblue
06-19-21, 17:26
I may have missed it, but Centurion BCG's are my new go to. They were an absolute steal at $125 and still are at the new higher price. Centurion's reputation should speak for itself concerning quality. A lot of folks bemoan the lack of high pressure testing, I'm not one of them
Most of my BCGs are BCM in my main ARs and have spare gas rings sets as well. The only AR I have had to change the gas rings on is my Spikes Tactical BCG. I do have a few spare Toolcraft BCGs and I tested one in my spare ARs and fired 120 rounds and it works fine without any issues. I am just cleaning the Toolcraft BCGs up and putting them in plastic bags for spares.
I may have missed it, but Centurion BCG's are my new go to. They were an absolute steal at $125 and still are at the new higher price. Centurion's reputation should speak for itself concerning quality. A lot of folks bemoan the lack of high pressure testing, I'm not one of them
Dude I picked one of those up from PA for like $80-90 once during a sale. I couldn't believe how great of a value that was.
I may have missed it, but Centurion BCG's are my new go to. They were an absolute steal at $125 and still are at the new higher price. Centurion's reputation should speak for itself concerning quality. A lot of folks bemoan the lack of high pressure testing, I'm not one of them
Per an email from Corrie, Centurion's BCGs are individually HP/MP tested
Would it kill the folks who sell BCGs to mark them on the side away from the ejector port?
This^
Would it kill the folks who sell BCGs to mark them on the side away from the ejector port?
BRT is consistent quality, always.
Andy
This is a pet peeve of mine too. Unless you're sponsoring me, I don't want to be a walking advertisement. When I see BCGs marked like that I just automatically walk the other way.
They turn black when you shoot them.
I kind of like the subtle logo Daniel Defense uses but anything bolder is a deterrent.
https://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/data/MetaMirrorCache/uploads.tapatalk_cdn.com_20160813_195cc082699cf8c45eb05ed6f3a4f346.jpg
I kind of like the subtle logo Daniel Defense uses but anything bolder is a deterrent.
[IMG]https://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/data/MetaMirrorCache/uploads.tapatalk_cdn.com_20160813_195cc082699cf8c45eb05ed6f3a4f346.jpg[/MG]
Nah you're just a walking billboard, boycott Daniel Defense they are using you as an ad, buy better stuff that doesn't feel the need to advertise themselecs
/s
They turn black when you shoot them.
You ain't keepin' your shit clean Ranger?
titsonritz
06-23-21, 17:16
You ain't keepin' your shit clean Ranger?
Sure, but then the ejection port is closed so who cares?
You ain't keepin' your shit clean Ranger?
Haha you’re not the first to bring that up. I clean it when necessary, but rarely white glove. I find that most everything stains eventually. Even if you start clean, that logo will be dark gray pretty quick.
Sure, but then the ejection port is closed so who cares?
My buddies and I have determined that I often do that subconsciously. I get made fun of for it occasionally.
The bcg logos are usually less noticable than the billboards on the receivers and handguards.
Sent from my KFMUWI using Tapatalk
The bcg logos are usually less noticable than the billboards on the receivers and handguards.
Sent from my KFMUWI using Tapatalk
I can tolerate an unobtrusive roll mark on the lower, just because they've been there for as long as the AR15 has been around. I would definitely prefer they weren't if given the choice, though. I think what turns me off about aggressive branding is I see it as ghetto and low class, besides just being ugly. That whole culture of needing other people to know what brand your shit is, don't like it, and especially am wary of any company that chases that hypebeast market. Obtuse logos belong on 500 dollar sneakers and 1500 dollar purses made in Chinese sweat shops, not on working guns. The only time I can see it as appropriate is for a competitive shooter who's sponsored.
Besides the markings legally required by the federal government, all you legitimately need is whatever information is necessary to identify the manufacturer should you need support, and be able to relate to them what it is, to aid them in helping you, and in collecting feedback for quality control. I certainly don't expect them to microstamp under the trigger or some extreme like that. Mark where it's convenient, and where it's easy for the customer to see. It's a functional item, not a showroom piece. But that doesn't mean to start taking liberties and plaster logos on every square inch of visible space.
~SNIP~
Oh yeah, I almost forgot about ejectors and extractors. For some reason some companies (even expensive ones) insist on shit springs. You’ll never notice with your perfectly gassed 16” middy, but you might see some lame shit if you put that in your suppressed SBR. Read user “Mistwolf”s posts and check your extractor springs. If the extractor springs are suspect, go ahead and swap the ejector spring, too. Might as well order a couple good spare springs right now. The ones that Mistwolf or Iraqgunz recommend.
I replace extractor springs as a matter of course with the exception of a few BCG vendors. There is just no downside to a strong extractor spring.
Andy
I replace extractor springs as a matter of course with the exception of a few BCG vendors. There is just no downside to a strong extractor spring.
Andy
I agree. I got the BCM extractor spring upgrade kit and bolt upgrade kit to keep as spare.
BCM sells them directly, but can also be bought at Optics Planet and others.
I am surprised that so many are annoyed about logos on parts. I could care less myself, as long as said parts work as they should.
I am surprised that so many are annoyed about logos on parts. I could care less myself, as long as said parts work as they should.
My post was semi-tongue in cheek, but yes I would prefer minimal markings.
I am surprised that so many are annoyed about logos on parts. I could care less myself, as long as said parts work as they should.
ALmost feels like those posts would be at home on Reddit, as people make excuses to by their $60 unmarked BCG...I'm not buying a BCM or DD and paying a tax just to have their giant billboard advertisement on my rifle!
ALmost feels like those posts would be at home on Reddit, as people make excuses to by their $60 unmarked BCG...I'm not buying a BCM or DD and paying a tax just to have their giant billboard advertisement on my rifle!
I purchased unmarked Sionics phosphate BCGs for my last builds, no excuses needed.
So I have:
BCM marked phosphate
LMT unmarked phosphate
Sionics unmarked phosphate (2)
Sabre Defence (?) phosphate marked with small SDI on backside of carrier
All are dependable, unfortunately none cost $60. Sabre Defence is long out of production.
Andy
We can easily mark some carriers on the opposite side.
Who's up for a "Covert" marked BCG?
Cadillacgrills
06-24-21, 19:40
We can easily mark some carriers on the opposite side.
Who's up for a "Covert" marked BCG?
Not sure if serious, but yeah, I’m in. It would be like a baseball card with some kind of error that triples its value except it would actually be put to use.
Signed
Please Be Real
Well, I do need a quality spare BCG
Andy
We can easily mark some carriers on the opposite side.
Who's up for a "Covert" marked BCG?
Just put an arrow pointing toward the other side.....:haha:
If I hadn’t just gotten another BCG from you, I’d be in for one.
We can easily mark some carriers on the opposite side.
Who's up for a "Covert" marked BCG?
I'd take one
It's cool that you actually listen to your customers. I hope other manufacturers will see this and follow (BCM/DD cough cough).
We can easily mark some carriers on the opposite side.
Who's up for a "Covert" marked BCG?
I’d take one or more as I need them for sure
Marking the carriers is one thing.....I'd just like to see the bolt itself marked (which I consider the most crucial element of the BCG). Manufacturer, HPT/MPI, etc. DD for instance doesn't mark their bolts. Unless you have purchased it from DD itself, you cannot be sure some unscrupulous dealer hasn't swapped a piece of shit DPMS bolt for the better one since you cannot tell who made it without markings.
Yes, I know shady stuff like that is not the norm, but you never know in today's up/down firearms market. I don't trust blindly.
coolcraigster
06-26-21, 19:20
Marking the carriers is one thing.....I'd just like to see the bolt itself marked (which I consider the most crucial element of the BCG). Manufacturer, HPT/MPI, etc. DD for instance doesn't mark their bolts. Unless you have purchased it from DD itself, you cannot be sure some unscrupulous dealer hasn't swapped a piece of shit DPMS bolt for the better one since you cannot tell who made it without markings.
Yes, I know shady stuff like that is not the norm, but you never know in today's up/down firearms market. I don't trust blindly.
Spikes bolts are marked exactly the way you described
Marking the carriers is one thing.....I'd just like to see the bolt itself marked (which I consider the most crucial element of the BCG). Manufacturer, HPT/MPI, etc. DD for instance doesn't mark their bolts. Unless you have purchased it from DD itself, you cannot be sure some unscrupulous dealer hasn't swapped a piece of shit DPMS bolt for the better one since you cannot tell who made it without markings.
Yes, I know shady stuff like that is not the norm, but you never know in today's up/down firearms market. I don't trust blindly.
I agree more manufacturers should do this because you never know.
BCM is my go to. Always great. Had bad luck with BCG with a PSA build. It was out of spec and resulted in terrible accuracy. Replaced with BCM. All good.
Spikes bolts are marked exactly the way you described
I could never get past the duelling dongs on the carrier...
coolcraigster
06-30-21, 23:27
I could never get past the duelling dongs on the carrier...Just gotta get dongs off your mind...
Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
Not one mention of the Sharps Rifle Company NP3 Reliabolt! I have one in each of my AR-15's. The guns run great with them in combo with the toolcraft BC, the Sprinco "Hot White" springs. and the Hydraulic buffers. All I can say is "get some"!!!!!!!!!
There were these mentions a few days ago. I’ve never used one, partly because stuff like this gives me pause.
I wear insults as badges of honor. Name removed, I hold no grudges.
Indeed, especially if it makes its way into the fire control group. People think they will just swap bolts and keep on chugging but when things like this happen you're going to need some tweezers and some time to get the gun running.
https://i.imgur.com/4FO08gV.jpg
Tell him to buy S7 steel bolts.
Ive documented my testing on the "relia-bolt" here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?145963-New-Sharps-Relia-Bolt-design-using-S7-tool-steel/page40
Trivia Questions:
1) How many gauges are required to measure all the critical dimensions of an AR/M16 bolt?
2) How many gauges are required to measure all the critical dimensions of an AR/M16 bolt carrier?
Answers: 17 & 38
Marking the carriers is one thing.....I'd just like to see the bolt itself marked (which I consider the most crucial element of the BCG).
Manufacturer, HPT/MPI, etc.
DD for instance doesn't mark their bolts.
Unless you have purchased it from DD itself, you cannot be sure some unscrupulous dealer hasn't swapped a piece of shit DPMS bolt for the better one since you cannot tell who made it without markings.
...
The mil print actually shows MP marking on the bolt.
All of our bolts are MP marked, just like the print.
It shows up nicely on the chrome version.
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/2378381847.jpg
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/2251083553.jpg
At least up until 2020, metallurgy or some other measure of quality seems to have improved since the early 2000s. There’s just not that many bolts breaking anymore, in my anecdotal experience. Most BCG failures I’ve seen lately are just garbage quality. Like loose screws, or bad dimensions. Like Clint said, bolt tails matter, and in more than one way. I’ve had to shuffle FPs in a couple to find one that would pass protrusion. Some also seem to have more blowby than others, but work fine. Bad screws keep being a thing for some reason.
Has there been metallurgy problems with BCGs starting in 2020? Are people suspecting that QC has slipped because of demand and COVID, or is there actual cases?
Has there been metallurgy problems with BCGs starting in 2020? Are people suspecting that QC has slipped because of demand and COVID, or is there actual cases?
I put that qualifier in there because I just don’t know, but there seems to be an air of mild suspicion for recent stuff. I have no evidence or solid reason to believe that a new bolt will last a shorter time than a 2019 bolt. Time will tell.
ViniVidivici
07-03-21, 03:55
Not one mention of the Sharps Rifle Company NP3 Reliabolt! I have one in each of my AR-15's. The guns run great with them in combo with the toolcraft BC, the Sprinco "Hot White" springs. and the Hydraulic buffers. All I can say is "get some"!!!!!!!!!
Not sure if......serious.......
Trivia Questions:
1) How many gauges are required to measure all the critical dimensions of an AR/M16 bolt?
2) How many gauges are required to measure all the critical dimensions of an AR/M16 bolt carrier?
Answers: 17 & 38
Just for inspection purposes;
Bolt-
Extractor go & no go
Bolt Tail go & no go
Bolt Support Shoulder
Firing pin hole
Firing pin protrusion
Carrier-
Multiple 3 bore gauges
Gas key go & no go
Carrier length
For manufacturing QC there are like many more...
When it comes to safety and precision shooting I am always serious. I will be firing my Colt Sporter HBAR in a military match at 200 yards on July 10th. Stock trigger (yikes)! This is my first military match with the Palmetto BC, NP3 Reliabolt, Sprinco White Hot spring, and Kynshot hydraulic buffer. So I will give a report on how this set-up does in competition.
Having a Colt Comp HBAR myself for a long time now and having sent many rounds downrange with zero issues ever - I just can't understand having a need for any of the things you listed. Those rifles were done right and flat out work...
No freaking way I would contaminate a perfectly good Colt with anything Palmetto. :no:
Wish you luck at the competition. Those barrels are very nice. No doubt you will be happy with that.
My Colt Sporter HBAR has the stupid "sear block"and half moon bcg!
Your most humble fellow precision shooting enthusiast!
Why fix it if it ain't broke?
Same sear block in mine along with the large pin trigger shit Colt decided to do. But it works and works reliably...
My Colt Sporter HBAR has the stupid "sear block"and half moon bcg! I had to file it down so I could use a full auto bcg. I don't know why you hate Palmetto so much? I also have an PSA 18" SS barrel+ a PSA 20" SS barrel uppers mated to the PSA lowers with the 2 stage NiB triggers. They are both accurate and reliable. The 20" has a Primary Arms scope 4-14x44 ACSS with the HUD reticle and the 18" has a Bresser Condor 4x24 scope. I only shoot Ammotech 77 grain DMR military match ammo or Norma 77 grain match in these rifles. I have had zero issues with them! I am going to shoot Frontier 55 grain match ammo in the Colt on match day. I do not reload, but use factory match ammo only. MOST issues that AR owners have come from sub standard cleaning and maintenance or magazine issues! I have nothing negative to say about Palmetto State Armory or Sharps Rifle Company NP3 Reliabolt's! I will say that I fired my stock Colt Sporter HBAR in many rifle matches stock with the sear block and NEVER HAD ANY FTF OR FTE! I would not hesistate to enhance the performance of my Colt Sporter HBAR. Who the hell would put a "sear block" in such a great rifle? COLT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your most humble fellow precision shooting enthusiast!
I dislike the sear block/weird bcg/large pin Colt guns, but I wouldn't modify one. I would either run it as is or sell it unmolested and buy a different rifle.
Per popular request...
Get yours HERE (https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-M4A1-Bolt-Carrier-Group-C158-HPT-MPI-Auto-Left-Hand-Marked-p372689055)
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/2387618356.jpg
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/2387665764.jpg
https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-M4A1-Bolt-Carrier-Group-C158-HPT-MPI-Auto-Left-Hand-Marked-p372689055
Per popular request...
Get yours HERE (https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-M4A1-Bolt-Carrier-Group-C158-HPT-MPI-Auto-Left-Hand-Marked-p372689055)
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/2387618356.jpg
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/2387665764.jpg
https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-M4A1-Bolt-Carrier-Group-C158-HPT-MPI-Auto-Left-Hand-Marked-p372689055
Thanks man, they look great 👍
Per popular request...
Well, that escalated quickly...
Now I have or have ordered: a Centurion F-15 lower, a stripped/blem BCM upper, a 16" BRT Optimum MPR barrel (with gas block, tube, and Covert Comp) a BRT left side marked BCG. I swear last month I told my wife I needed another AR like I need a hole in my head.
Andy
Cadillacgrills
07-06-21, 20:42
Ordered! Looks awesome. Thanks for the work!
Well, that escalated quickly...
Now I have or have ordered: a Centurion F-15 lower, a stripped/blem BCM upper, a 16" BRT Optimum MPR barrel (with gas block, tube, and Covert Comp), a BRT left side marked BCG. I swear last month I told my wife I needed another AR like I need a hole in my head.
Andy
Guessing you bought it all at close to the top of market price as well if you bought recently.
You not only bought stuff you didn't 'need' - You paid a hell of a premium to buy it all.
You got to pat yourself on the back twice at least. :haha:
Guessing you bought it all at close to the top of market price as well if you bought recently.
You not only bought stuff you didn't 'need' - You paid a hell of a premium to buy it all.
You got to pat yourself on the back twice at least. :haha:
Prices have dropped and I did not pay much more than what equal quality parts have run for the past 4 years or so.
A "hell of a premium" is not really accurate, but I appreciate your viewpoint.
Andy
Prices have dropped and I did not pay much more than what equal quality parts have run for the past 4 years or so.
Finished all of my last minute shopping a good 6mos before the last election and have a good grasp on what prices used to be then and for most of the time Trump was in office.
Not sure what you found that has dropped back down to those price levels and seriously doubt prices will ever get that low again.
In my opinion the Trump years (in office) truly were the 'buy it cheap and stack it deep' years.
Good luck with your upcoming build as your parts all arrive sir. :)
I dislike the sear block/weird bcg/large pin Colt guns, but I wouldn't modify one. I would either run it as is or sell it unmolested and buy a different rifle.
Not going to lie. I DID take mine to a gunsmith many years ago and have him fix the turd of a trigger. Not sure exactly what he did as zero parts were swapped (positive of this) but damned if that guy did not perform a miracle. Smooth as glass and a consistent 3 1/4lb break every time. Zero reliability issues with mil primers / ammo...
The stock trigger (after having been 'fixed' by that gunsmith) feels better than the nice adjustable and reduced weight spring setup I have for the same lower.
Not going to lie. I DID take mine to a gunsmith many years ago and have him fix the turd of a trigger. Not sure exactly what he did as zero parts were swapped (positive of this) but damned if that guy did not perform a miracle. Smooth as glass and a consistent 3 1/4lb break every time. Zero reliability issues with mil primers / ammo...
The stock trigger (after having been 'fixed' by that gunsmith) feels better than the nice adjustable and reduced weight spring setup I have for the same lower.
I was thinking more of grinding the sear block. I'm in the middle of a 1903 Springfield project that would have been child's play if someone had not modified it.
Any BCG from a reputable company is most likely gtg; e.g. BCM, Colt, LMT, DD, Sionics, SOLGW, Centurion, etc.
As long as it meets the specs, e.g. Car 158, HP/MPI, staked, etc.
Watch some SOTAR videos and you will get a good idea what to look for.
My new go to for BCGs is the Sionics NP3 variant. The NP3 holds up well, slicker, and Sionics has excellent staking and uses OCKs screws.
How does the group feel about LANTAC BCGs?
Just for inspection purposes;
Bolt-
Extractor go & no go
Bolt Tail go & no go
Bolt Support Shoulder
Firing pin hole
Firing pin protrusion
Carrier-
Multiple 3 bore gauges
Gas key go & no go
Carrier length
For manufacturing QC there are like many more...
Actually, that's an assembly gauge.
And, there isn't an overall carrier length gauge.
No one knows who makes what for who on any given day, but I think it was pretty reliable info that they were Continental Machine at one time. Decent bolt to be sure, but you definitely pay dearly for that rebranding. For my money, I'm not paying for a name unless there's something proprietary involved that you can't get elsewhere for less. So it just goes back to my original statement. Toolcraft, Colt, LMT/KAC, depending on what you want to spend. Everything else is pretty much smoke and mirrors far as I can tell.
Rubber City Armory is in that mix too. I know they were or are making them for Noveske. They even have a shot of a Noveske BCG on their home page. Not sure who else they manufacture for. I will say I bought one of their 7.62 x 39 BCGs a few months ago for a build and have been pleasantly surprised. 300 rounds of steel case and all it needed was a wipe off. I haven't done a SOTAR level physical but the gas keys are staked and torqued appropriately, gas ring fitment is spot on, gas key alignment is good and from what I can see with the nekkid eye the machining is smooth and consistent. One of the other benefits is you can spec out that you want OCKS gas key screws used if you want them. I bought a 5.56 carrier last week from them for another build and added the screws to the cart and put a message with the order asking them to use them.
Being new to AR’s several years ago, I bought into the hype of PSA Premium = Toolcraft and were GTG. I have ~ 1,500 rounds through one of them with no issues, but after learning a bit more and this past year I bought two Sionics BCG’s for my “serious use” rifles, along with upgrading every pin, detent, etc, to the best available.
School of the American Rifle on YouTube will point out the differences in quality, and as has been said, a couple high quality parts, assembled with a bunch of junk small parts by someone who doesn’t know or care isn’t the same final product.
I do agree that many go overboard worrying about “Murphy”, etc, and the idea that a mid-level rifle that has fired 1,000 rounds during range/training use without a problem is suddenly going to choke during firing 6 rounds in a home defense scenario because it isn’t “Tier 1” is paranoid, but as I said, this past year has put things in perspective.
I’ve recently approached it from the standpoint of “what you have now, is what you will have, what your kids will have, and what your grandkids will have”, in regard to quality, quantity, and spare parts. Hopefully I’m wrong.
I have LONG taken the same view- what you have right now is all you may ever have...so, if you are talking about arming your extended family- several kids, grandkids, wives....How many "Tier One" rifles can people afford? --With spares, because even "Tier One" rifles take a shit from time to time- I've got one RFN from one of the biggest names in the business that is in a UPS truck going back for service after 15 rounds....Good for you if you can afford 12-20 "Tier One" rifles fully tricked out. That's not reality for most people.....and why I have some really nice rifles, but I have many "mid tier" rifles.
I did not read all 126 posts in this thread, so I am not sure if this has been added already.
Some guys down here are using Rguns BCG's (https://rguns.net). I have not heard of any negative reports at this time. Some have large ammo round counts on them and no problems. Any reports from you guys?
I did not read all 126 posts in this thread, so I am not sure if this has been added already.
Some guys down here are using Rguns BCG's (https://rguns.net). I have not heard of any negative reports at this time. Some have large ammo round counts on them and no problems. Any reports from you guys?
I don't think they were mentioned in this thread, but here is an older one:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?122453-RGuns-BCG
Honestly, if I was going to roll the dice on a inexpensive BCG, I would get one from a vendor with a better customer service reputation. I know that is a non-technical answer.
Andy
I don't think they were mentioned in this thread, but here is an older one:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?122453-RGuns-BCG
Honestly, if I was going to roll the dice on a inexpensive BCG, I would get one from a vendor with a better customer service reputation. I know that is a non-technical answer.
Andy
I read that old post (thanks) seems to be some fake news speculation in there, (I heard this or heard that, somebody said this, is going on in that thread). I did not hear that anybody had a problem with Rguns BCG's
What I know is 10-15 Rguns BCG are being used by guys down here in the last 3-5 years. No one that I know has reported any problems or failures with their BCG's, a couple of them have heavy thousands of round counts on them.
What I know first hand is 8-9 months ago, one of the guys has a relative up north that is a new gun person. They did not listen and bought a upper and BCG that was not together. They did not test the unit for a year. Well, the BCG did not work, would load 1st round, fire it and would jam. We were 2k miles away, but did get it figured out. At that time everyone was out of BCG's. We called Rguns and explained the problem and asked if they had any in stock, they did and shipped in 24 hours for a total of 3 days delivery and the unit was up and running. In my book I think that was pretty good.
I will go out on a limb here, even though I am hardly an SME on any weapons system. The thread title references "dependable" BCGs and there is zero evidence Rguns bolt carrier groups belong in the same list as (example only, not all-inclusive):
Bravo Company
Colt
Daniel Defense
FN Herstal
Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT)
I have purchased and own cheaper BCGs, but I understand what they are and are not.
Andy
All my guns have either DD, BCM, or LMT BCG’s in them. Some have been abused, some haven’t. All have performed 100%.
Hammer_Man
07-20-21, 18:24
One brand I’ve always had good luck with is AO Precision. I order mine from Right to Bear Arms. AO Precision is an OE supplier to FN, and their bcgs check all the milspec boxes. I just ordered my third one today.
titsonritz
07-20-21, 18:34
I just pull out my second to last BCG now I'm down to one spare. Oh crap. :fie:
One brand I’ve always had good luck with is AO Precision. I order mine from Right to Bear Arms. AO Precision is an OE supplier to FN, and their bcgs check all the milspec boxes. I just ordered my third one today.
That's good to know, thanks for the heads up. I wonder if the ones sold by RTB are the same spec as the FN ones.
Hammer_Man
07-20-21, 21:20
That's good to know, thanks for the heads up. I wonder if the ones sold by RTB are the same spec as the FN ones.
According to the RTB website:
“AO Precision Premium Mil-Spec Phosphate Bolt Carrier Group - 158 HPT/MPI BCG
These Military surplus 158 Bolt carrier groups are manufactured by AO Precision to the exacting standards of the US Military. AO makes these HPT / MPI BCG's for other Military contractor juggernauts, such as FN America. All bolts are rigorously inspected and are individually High Pressure Tested and then go through a Magnetic Particle Inspection.
Mil Spec Bolt
158 Carpenter Steel
Shot Peened
High Pressure Tested (HPT)
Magnetic Particle Inspected (MPI)
Mil Spec Carrier
8620 Aircraft Grade Steel
Full Mass M-16
Mil Spec Extractor
4140 Steel per ASTM A108, cold drawn and stress relieved BHN 187-22
Phosphate Finish
Extractor Spring
Black Extractor Insert
Viton O-Ring
Mil Spec Gas Key
4130 Profile Extruded Steel
Grade 8 Hardware
Properly Staked
Chrome Interior
Please note: These BCG's are considered premium because of the materials used and the Military Spec requirements that are adhered to during the manufacturing process. The HPT/metallurgy equipment and processes that these go through are very hard to find and very expensive. These are battle proven (literally), but they may not be as pretty as other BCG's out there.”
The only downside, is that they raised their price from $89.99 to $149.99.
Illustrator76
07-21-21, 11:36
I'm personally a Daniel Defense guy. Never heard a bad thing about them (other than price), and never had an issue. They're just sold out everywhere right now.
According to the RTB website:
“AO Precision Premium Mil-Spec Phosphate Bolt Carrier Group - 158 HPT/MPI BCG
These Military surplus 158 Bolt carrier groups are manufactured by AO Precision to the exacting standards of the US Military. AO makes these HPT / MPI BCG's for other Military contractor juggernauts, such as FN America. All bolts are rigorously inspected and are individually High Pressure Tested and then go through a Magnetic Particle Inspection.
Mil Spec Bolt
158 Carpenter Steel
Shot Peened
High Pressure Tested (HPT)
Magnetic Particle Inspected (MPI)
Mil Spec Carrier
8620 Aircraft Grade Steel
Full Mass M-16
Mil Spec Extractor
4140 Steel per ASTM A108, cold drawn and stress relieved BHN 187-22
Phosphate Finish
Extractor Spring
Black Extractor Insert
Viton O-Ring
Mil Spec Gas Key
4130 Profile Extruded Steel
Grade 8 Hardware
Properly Staked
Chrome Interior
Please note: These BCG's are considered premium because of the materials used and the Military Spec requirements that are adhered to during the manufacturing process. The HPT/metallurgy equipment and processes that these go through are very hard to find and very expensive. These are battle proven (literally), but they may not be as pretty as other BCG's out there.”
The only downside, is that they raised their price from $89.99 to $149.99.
I love it when marketing types try to make their ads sound "technical" . . .
"Mil Spec Extractor
4140 Steel per ASTM A108, cold drawn and stress relieved BHN 187-229
Mil Spec Gas Key
4130 Profile Extruded Steel
Grade 8 Hardware"
I hope their extractor is not Brinell 187-229. That is soft, annealed soft, about a 9 on the Rockwell C scale.
After heat treatment the extractor should be Rockwell C42 to C44
And the infamous, and misunderstood "Grade 8" bolt . . .
First, the only fastener specification that has Grade 8 in it is SAE J429 which deals with hex head bolts and studs, and the "Grade 8" bolts and stud start at 1/4 nominal thread diameter. I am pretty sure you don't have a 1/4 bolt holding your gas key on.
Second, if we just take the material strength requirements for "Grade 8" bolts, that means they are made from a steel with a minimum tensile strength of 150,000 psi. The actual screw per the Army's drawings is a item peculiar screw made from a nonstandard (screw) steel and with a nonstandard head, but we'll skip that fact for the moment and look at the standard "mil-spec" screws that are the closest the the 8448508 (19200) drawing. These screws would be the Aerospace Industries Association National Aerospace Standard NAS1351 - Screw, Cap, Socket Head, Undrilled and Drilled . . . yada, yada".
NAS1351 screws are required to be made from steel with a minimum yield strength of 180,000 psi.
In fact, all of your MS and MIL-S socket head cap screws are required to be made from steels with a minimum yield strength of 170,000 to 180,000 psi, 10% to 20% stronger than your "Grade 8".
MistoGators
07-22-21, 09:19
Sionics BCG (with OCKS) on Primary Arms for $120. Can't beat that.
Edit: OOS for now, but they do have a Spike's for $135.
Cadillacgrills
07-22-21, 13:40
Was Sionics really avail for $120?? I’ve seen that price listed but just thought it was an outdated number from the salad days...Helluva deal for those that scooped it up....finally got one last week at ~185 w/shipping from the source!
Edit: actually don’t answer that, I prefer to live with excitement of finally finding/acquiring a Sionics bcg...
Just a heads-up.
I've had not one, but TWO JP enterprises FMOS carriers fail-
Last weekend was number two. The front gas key screw broke the head off, of course the carbine will stop cycling.
I sent the first one back to them for repair, then got rid of it later as it still wouldn't cycle.
This one, I just repaired it myself with new screws. I figure at least I'll know it's done right, and not a refurbished swap, which I think the other one was.
Sad, as the body is beautifully machined.
Need BCG for my 11.5 SBR. Considering BCM, Spikes, DD and Colt. I know those are quality BCG's. I dont want any fancy coating. Just want phosphate and reliability. I just saw a BCM go on gunbroker for $325. Thats ridiculous. I guess someone had to have the BCM logo pretty badly. Can anyone give me reason why one of these is better than another?
Toolcraft Milspec. Since you said BCG, you are dealing with a number of different materials. I recommend you stick with a milspec BCG from a company with high QC that adheres to military tech specs. Toolcraft, Colt Defense, FN, PSA, BCM, there are many but Toolcraft would be my #1 choice for cost/attainability. I only use BCG's with HP/MPI 158c bolts. Toolcraft, and PSA and maybe BCM use different metals in their bolt in their BCG's I would not use them for a duty gun.
I will go out on a limb here, even though I am hardly an SME on any weapons system. The thread title references "dependable" BCGs and there is zero evidence Rguns bolt carrier groups belong in the same list as (example only, not all-inclusive):
Bravo Company
Colt
Daniel Defense
FN Herstal
Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT)
I have purchased and own cheaper BCGs, but I understand what they are and are not.
Andy
Have you ever used a Rguns BCG????? I know 13 that are being used and no reports of problems. Two have around 5k rounds, one is around 3K. One had a set of gas rings go bad, but I don't remember if it was on a Rguns bolt or someone else's bolt. (OH, Thanks for making me remember, that guy has not returned a new set of gas rings to me, I will have to call him, I may have to foreclose on that unit, OH YES! lol) He replaced MY set of new gas rings and was up and running and I have not heard of any other problems from him.
You say "there is zero evidence Rguns bolt carrier groups belong in the same list as (example only, not all-inclusive):Bravo Company, Colt, Daniel Defense, FN Herstal" Do you have any evidence that Rguns BCG's are not dependable? That is the question that I was asking the guy's on M4Carb. Has anyone used Rguns BCG's and had any problems with them? I have not seen any problems with Rguns BCG's so far.
Just a heads-up.
I've had not one, but TWO JP enterprises FMOS carriers fail-
Last weekend was number two. The front gas key screw broke the head off, of course the carbine will stop cycling.
I sent the first one back to them for repair, then got rid of it later as it still wouldn't cycle.
This one, I just repaired it myself with new screws. I figure at least I'll know it's done right, and not a refurbished swap, which I think the other one was.
Sad, as the body is beautifully machined.
Have you checked to make sure that the carrier key isn't contacting the receiver at full compression? Just drop the buffer into the buffer tube without the spring, and then insert the back of the BCG. Make sure there's at least 1/16" clearance between the gas key and the receiver.
Have you ever used a Rguns BCG????? I know 13 that are being used and no reports of problems. Two have around 5k rounds, one is around 3K. One had a set of gas rings go bad, but I don't remember if it was on a Rguns bolt or someone else's bolt. (OH, Thanks for making me remember, that guy has not returned a new set of gas rings to me, I will have to call him, I may have to foreclose on that unit, OH YES! lol) He replaced MY set of new gas rings and was up and running and I have not heard of any other problems from him.
You say "there is zero evidence Rguns bolt carrier groups belong in the same list as (example only, not all-inclusive):Bravo Company, Colt, Daniel Defense, FN Herstal" Do you have any evidence that Rguns BCG's are not dependable? That is the question that I was asking the guy's on M4Carb. Has anyone used Rguns BCG's and had any problems with them? I have not seen any problems with Rguns BCG's so far.
It honestly would not matter if I have seen or not seen a bad Rguns BCG, I have been more than clear I am not an SME. What I can say with confidence is the BCGs that people who are SMEs recommend are dependable. I do not recall an SME on this site recommending Rguns BCGs.
Andy
Hammer_Man
07-23-21, 14:04
I love it when marketing types try to make their ads sound "technical" . . .
"Mil Spec Extractor
4140 Steel per ASTM A108, cold drawn and stress relieved BHN 187-229
Mil Spec Gas Key
4130 Profile Extruded Steel
Grade 8 Hardware"
I hope their extractor is not Brinell 187-229. That is soft, annealed soft, about a 9 on the Rockwell C scale.
After heat treatment the extractor should be Rockwell C42 to C44
And the infamous, and misunderstood "Grade 8" bolt . . .
First, the only fastener specification that has Grade 8 in it is SAE J429 which deals with hex head bolts and studs, and the "Grade 8" bolts and stud start at 1/4 nominal thread diameter. I am pretty sure you don't have a 1/4 bolt holding your gas key on.
Second, if we just take the material strength requirements for "Grade 8" bolts, that means they are made from a steel with a minimum tensile strength of 150,000 psi. The actual screw per the Army's drawings is a item peculiar screw made from a nonstandard (screw) steel and with a nonstandard head, but we'll skip that fact for the moment and look at the standard "mil-spec" screws that are the closest the the 8448508 (19200) drawing. These screws would be the Aerospace Industries Association National Aerospace Standard NAS1351 - Screw, Cap, Socket Head, Undrilled and Drilled . . . yada, yada".
NAS1351 screws are required to be made from steel with a minimum yield strength of 180,000 psi.
In fact, all of your MS and MIL-S socket head cap screws are required to be made from steels with a minimum yield strength of 170,000 to 180,000 psi, 10% to 20% stronger than your "Grade 8".
I have no idea what the required heat treatment specs are for the extractor, or the gas key. I did a quick Google search for those specs, and couldn’t find anything. I’ve used two of these before without issues, and just ordered my third. If this one blows up because the extractor isn’t hard enough I’ll let you know.
Cool info. Might explain why grade 8 screws are shearing off.
Cool info. Might explain why grade 8 screws are shearing off.
I would say it explains why grade 8 screws are NOT shearing off or breaking when used in BCGs. Whoopie Goldberg' MAGA hat doesn't shrink in the wash, either.
Andy
Always grateful for lysanders knowledge bombs, I find myself combing threads for anything he chooses to add.
I would say it explains why grade 8 screws are NOT shearing off or breaking when used in BCGs. Whoopie Goldberg' MAGA hat doesn't shrink in the wash, either.
Andy
I have had some military tech ones let go: under abnormal circumstances. I have also seen some dude on ebay selling "grade 8" screws as replacements. I was at a armorers course years ago and someone had some spares and I swear they must have been from the hardware store, when I compared them to a set I had from a well respected manufacturer they were not the same.
I have had some military tech ones let go: under abnormal circumstances. I have also seen some dude on ebay selling "grade 8" screws as replacements. I was at a armorers course years ago and someone had some spares and I swear they must have been from the hardware store, when I compared them to a set I had from a well respected manufacturer they were not the same.
There is a difference in quality between fasteners, no question. I was referring to Lysander clarifying that grade 8 screws are not made in the size used for gas keys/BCGs.
Andy
First off, I AM NOT saying that RTB makes bad stuff. It probably is as good as most everyone else's stuff, because most retail sellers get their stuff from the same few manufacturers, and even the cheap stuff is adequate.
What I was saying was most often the guy that writes the blurb for the catalog page has little understanding of the technical specifications, and grabs out-of-context snippets and common (if incorrect) jargon to fill out the "Technical Specification" tab, under the part.
As to carrier key cap screws in particular:
The screw specified on the Colt's drawing is Screw, Cap, Hex Socket Head, DWG No. 8448508. It is NOT a standard screw, so you won't find it at the hardware store.
Standard screws are ASTM A574-13 and NAS 1352, which allow for steels with the following composition:
Carbon - 0.31%
Phosphorus - 0.035%
Sulfur - 0.040% max
one or more of the following to ensure strength requirements are met - chromium, nickel, molybdenum, or vanadium (That covers a lot of steel alloys.)
The mechanical requirements are:
Tensile strength - 180 ksi
Proof load - 140 ksi
Hardness (Rc) - 39-45
Yield at 2% - 153 ksi
Elongation - 10% min (Most 41XX and 43XX series steel this is 15% to 20%)
Reduction in area - 35% min (Most 41XX and 43XX series steel this is 40% to 50%)
DWG 8448508 calls for AISI 4037 heat treated and tempered to 15N 78.5 to 83 (HRc 36 to 45). At this hardness 4037 will have the same ultimate and yield strength, but the elongation will be only 5% and the reduction in area of 36%
So, what the difference? It's all steel with the same yield strength, right?
Well, the strength and hardness are the same but the other properties have a bearing on the behavior of the screws and explain why Armalite/Colt's was so specific in material choice. The elongation at break is 5%, and 36% reduction in area for 4037, the other alloys have values in the 15% to 20% elongation and 40% to 50% reduction in area. This means that 4037 is a very "stiff" alloy, in takes a lot of force to stretch the material a small amount
Also, the required torque on the 8448508 screws is 58 in-lbs, which means the clamping force is between 1,793 and 2,080 lbs. Clamping force is the result of the steel of the bolt stretching like a rubber band and holding tension.
The proof load for 8-32 UNC ASTM A574 screws is 1,960 lbs. Proof load means the bolt stretch at this load remains inside the elastic region of the stress-strain curve. Loads above the proof load can result in permanent bolt stretch and loss of torque and clamping load. So, some ASTM A574 screws can stretch under the carrier key specified torque. 4037 screws, being stiffer, do not stretch as much and therefore retain their clamping load. This is why BCM, Colt's, and other quality places use the 4037 screw.
(You can mitigate the bolt elongation problem by simply reducing the torque to about 50 - 55 in-lbs and making sure the screws are installed dry. You still maintain a 1,500-1,700 lbs of clamp.)
Also, there is that one dimensional difference, ASTM A574 and NASM1352 screws specify a 9/64" (0.140") key and the DWG 8448508 screws specify a 1/8" (0.125") key. Since the head diameter is the same, the drawing screw has a thicker web. This gives a visual cue to the type of screw, and the thicker head web resists stripping (a little bit).
Does it matter? I don't know, that's up to you. Personally, I can live with the minor differences, but just be aware that there are differences.
There is a difference in quality between fasteners, no question. I was referring to Lysander clarifying that grade 8 screws are not made in the size used for gas keys/BCGs.
Andy
Makes me wonder what in the hell is floating around when folks source non milspec gas key screws...
I got my left-hand marked BCG from Black River Tactical today. It is still sealed in plastic but it looks and I expect it to be a high quality piece just like all BRT products I have used.
Andy
I got my left-hand marked BCG from Black River Tactical today. It is still sealed in plastic but it looks and I expect it to be a high quality piece just like all BRT products I have used.
Andy
BRT is legit. I used one of their down-sized gas tubes to tame an over gassed SA 10" Colt HRT HB. The thing runs like a sewing machine.
Another vote for AO. Seems as well made as any Colt, DD, SOLGW, or BCM.
If the speculation is correct and it’s what came in my URG-I upper, I am extremely impressed with it.
How does the group feel about LANTAC BCGs?
I'm still looking for some insight on these.... anyone?
I'm still looking for some insight on these.... anyone?
IMO they are some of the best but pricey and because I have never had the need for a better BCG to justify the cost. They have been on top of enhancing the milspec BCG for a long time.
Another vote for AO. Seems as well made as any Colt, DD, SOLGW, or BCM.
If the speculation is correct and it’s what came in my URG-I upper, I am extremely impressed with it.
I like mine and it looks like my FNH but a bit less green and more gray/black.
Hammer_Man
10-02-21, 11:46
Another vote for AO. Seems as well made as any Colt, DD, SOLGW, or BCM.
If the speculation is correct and it’s what came in my URG-I upper, I am extremely impressed with it.
I’ve run two of them in previous builds, and they’ve been flawless. I especially liked their pre-pandemic price of $89.99.
Would it kill the folks who sell BCGs to mark them on the side away from the ejector port?
BRT is consistent quality, always.
Andy
Agree 100%. Paging BCM... BCM ...
I have a BCM BCG and it's great.. Please just lose the billboard gold letter BCM on the side.
Agree 100%. Paging BCM... BCM ...
I have a BCM BCG and it's great.. Please just lose the billboard gold letter BCM on the side.
We did a special run based on feedback from this thread.
They're available now (https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-M4A1-Bolt-Carrier-Group-C158-HPT-MPI-Auto-Left-Hand-Marked-p372689055).
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/2387618356.jpg
Agree 100%. Paging BCM... BCM ...
I have a BCM BCG and it's great.. Please just lose the billboard gold letter BCM on the side.
LOL for some its all about the brand. I have heard more folks complain about it by leaps and bounds than folks who state they like a logo. *Pay attention BCM and every other branded BCM company.. I like the EDM myself as long as the logo is not silly. But overall I would say save the cost of applying a logo thats not needed for any practical reason. In the end it may not be well received by customers and its going to increase cost to manufacture.
Hammer_Man
10-02-21, 14:00
We did a special run based on feedback from this thread.
They're available now (https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-M4A1-Bolt-Carrier-Group-C158-HPT-MPI-Auto-Left-Hand-Marked-p372689055).
https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/812059/2387618356.jpg
You guys rock!
Agree 100%. Paging BCM... BCM ...
I have a BCM BCG and it's great.. Please just lose the billboard gold letter BCM on the side.
What's wrong with gun bling....lol
What's wrong with gun bling....lol
Right, some people do like it... Color coordinated holsters, outfits and gun paint..
Right, some people do like it... Color coordinated holsters, outfits and gun paint..
I try and stick with OD green for the most part.....if I feel risky..some FDE here and there...
I try and stick with OD green for the most part.....if I feel risky..some FDE here and there...
Yeah, you, me and AlGore.. Earth tones..
I built an FDE rifle once. Shot like crap. Instead of taking ownership of the failure as its builder I instead have decided to blame the color. FDE is the debil.
I built an FDE rifle once. Shot like crap. Instead of taking ownership of the failure as its builder I instead have decided to blame the color. FDE is the debil.
My first built AR was and FDE one since I ordered a FDE Tactical Law folding stock adapter. It was on discounted so I ordered it and did not think about the color at the time. The adapter even at discount was expensive so ordered Magpul grip, buttstock, tube in, and a Troy M-LOK rail in FDE.
I also ordered a lower parts kit and dust cover, forward assist, magazine release, safety and pivot pins are all FDE. Kind of breaks up the all black upper and lower receiver from Aero. It shoots quite but have not shot past 50 yards yet.
Scorched Earth Black for the modern post apocalyptic battlefield.
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