View Full Version : Which is better for self defense?
Blinking Dog
12-09-08, 21:59
I did a "test" a while back where I shot two ammo brands into milk jugs filled with water at 7 yards. Then I recovered the bullets to see the deformity. Nothing scientific, just kind of curious. These are .45 self defense loads, one a Hornady TAP and the other Federal "Personal Defense."
I found the result quite interesting, but I'm not sure what to make of it. The TAP bullet peeled back but generally retained its weight. The Federal bullet totally peeled back and the jacket separated.
So the question I have is, which is better? Is it the TAP because it retains its mass and delivers more power? Or is it the Federal because it opens up more and causes a bigger cavity and perhaps more damage?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3079/3096426817_953bd5ee70_m.jpg
Blinking Dog
12-10-08, 14:43
Seriously, no one has an opinion on this? Come on guys, someone has to know which one of these bullets "performs" better. :confused:
I understand you'd like an answer but one of the nice things about this site is that people who aren't qualified to give an answer based on real data, generally don't. On other sites you'd likely get a lot of BS from people who just want to sound authoritive even if they don't know what they're talking about.
Sometimes what's not said can be an answer too. IE: there's better ammo choices in that caliber than either of those (but that's not what you asked).
Seriously, no one has an opinion on this? Come on guys, someone has to know which one of these bullets "performs" better. :confused:
Opinion:
I'd rather have a pistol round that stayed together than one that broke up.
You have too little data to form an opinion regarding those two offerings IMO.
If you want to know which is better for you then you will need to look at the current research and come to your own conclusion.
Buckaroo
Blinking Dog
12-10-08, 18:35
I didn't articulate my question very well, so let me try again...oh, and thanks for replying.
My question isn't necessarily about these two specific brands, it was about what those bullets did. That is, and this is a simplification, but a bullet can either stay together when it enters a ballistics medium (perhaps a person), or it can break apart. And also, perhaps a second part to staying together or breaking apart, it can expand greatly or retain its original diamater.
It would seem to me that expanding past its original diameter would be preferable for a bullet, but what about breaking up and becoming almost like shrapnel? Seems like that would be good, but perhaps not. I don't know.
So ignore the brands for a moment and think generic. Seems like I got the 2 results you might expect to see from any bullet. Which would you rather have your bullet do?
And maybe I should infer that the answer is neither, that there are more options for your bullet once it hits its target.
Thanks in advance.
Alpha Sierra
12-10-08, 19:18
Shot placement is king.
Penetration is queen.
All else is suplemental.
Given proper penetration, I would prefer fragmentation to expansion.
IMHO... I would stay with the round that retains some weight. Why.... in Law Enforcement, where unfortunatley we sometimes do have to shoot real people instead of milk jugs or ballistic gellatin we have found the following. Crooks wear clothing, often heavy clothing because most shootings occur at night when it is cold. The bullets that fragment to easily, have often lost most of their criminal rehabilitation potential just getting through all of that inprovised body armor. A good bullet that holds together enough to get through and will still mushroom does the job.
Again.. shot placement is everything..... a well placed rifle round is better..... and a well placed shotgun slug is final.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
I think it's a mistake to attach too much importance to how bullets do against water-filled milk jugs.
If I was searching for a carry load, I'd check out the recommendations in the attached thread.
zippygaloo
12-11-08, 12:48
delete
Service caliber handgun bullets generally only disrupt tissue by directly contacting and crushing it. If service caliber handgun bullets fragment, wound severity is generally decreased, as the amount of tissue crushed is reduced. For service caliber handguns, it is ideal if the bullets stay intact and retain all their weight.
Alpha Sierra
12-11-08, 19:39
Service caliber handgun bullets generally only disrupt tissue by directly contacting and crushing it. If service caliber handgun bullets fragment, wound severity is generally decreased, as the amount of tissue crushed is reduced. For service caliber handguns, it is ideal if the bullets stay intact and retain all their weight.
It is my understanding that Remington's and Federal's .357 Magnum 125 grain semi jacketed hollow points gained their deadly reputation due to the fact that they both penetrated deeply and fragmented to a significant degree. I cannot discount the image of lead and copper fragments severing nerves, arteries, veins, and even tearing into organs like lungs, heart, liver, spleen etc. spreading the wealth beyond the primary wound channel.
Am I off base with that estimate?
Well, rather than relying on internet myth, let's look at some facts. The CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their duty revolvers--CHP has continued to report greater OIS incident success with their non-fragmenting .40 S&W 180 gr JHP's than with the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP's they previously issued...
Alpha Sierra
12-12-08, 04:38
Thanks Doc. Was that a 5, 10, 15% increase in desirable results? Do you know of other agencies that have data about the same switch?
FWIW, IMHO
#1 I'd be skeptical basing any conclusions on such a low and unscientific volume of data.
#2 is there a particular reason you're limiting this to two choices?
That being said I'm surprised you had a case seperation with that particular vendor, but on that reason alone I wouldn't go with them.
The bullets that fragment to easily, have often lost most of their criminal rehabilitation potential just getting through all of that inprovised body armor.
Criminal rehabilitation potential!
I laughed out loud. That was funny :D
Nightstalker
01-03-09, 09:11
What I carry is the Speer Gold Dot 165gr. Carry that on my service gun AND all my other personal ones. I was fortunate enough to be invited to a ballistic gellatin shoot several months ago... This is what the Gold Dot 165gr did through several layers of denim. Mind you, that is a quarter next to the bullet. http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh225/jon1-2-3/cp1_0923081048a-1.jpg
***Amateur Opinion***
Aparently Federal personal defense rounds are not equivalent to Federal LE. I just ordered 500 rounds of Federal LE Tactical HST 230gr +P .45ACP and 124gr +P 9mm based on this description from the ATK website.
"Tactical® HST®
The next generation in high performance duty ammunition. HST® offers consistent expansion and optimum penetration for terminal performance. A specially designed hollow-point tip won't plug while passing through a variety of barriers and this bullet holds its jacket in the toughest conditions. HST is engineered to provide 100% weight retention through most barriers and impressive expansion."
http://www.atk.com
From what I have read Hydra-Shok is more popular but the HST looked more interesting to me.
I'm hoping I made a wise choice.
HST is a modern design offering robust expansion, even through heavy clothing; as such, HST is substantially superior to the 15+ y/o Hydrashok.
I understand you'd like an answer but one of the nice things about this site is that people who aren't qualified to give an answer based on real data, generally don't. On other sites you'd likely get a lot of BS from people who just want to sound authoritive even if they don't know what they're talking about.
Sometimes what's not said can be an answer too. IE: there's better ammo choices in that caliber than either of those (but that's not what you asked).
perfect answer.
***Amateur Opinion***
Aparently Federal personal defense rounds are not equivalent to Federal LE. I just ordered 500 rounds of Federal LE Tactical HST 230gr +P .45ACP and 124gr +P 9mm based on this description from the ATK website.
From what I have read Hydra-Shok is more popular but the HST looked more interesting to me.
I'm hoping I made a wise choice.
Just make sure it will run 100% in the weapons you will carry on duty or for personal defense.
Our department switched to HST+P .45ACP from Hydrashock standard velocity. We found that we had a significant increase in type two malfunctions (failure to extract) This was equally between 1911's and Glock 21's. Even a change in recoil spring weights and extractor tuning did not eliminate the problems. We went to standard pressure HST .45 ACP and had no problems.
I will take a lower/slower/lower pressure round that runs 100% over a +P that is not 100% any day of the week.
YMMV
Until that day,
Darkop
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Federal load asked about is their 165gr Hydrashock, no?
If so,, that is a dog of a load, I wouldn't carry it.
Hornady XTP bullets work OK, but I like them better as a hunting load.
Gold Dot, Ranger-T, or HST are the bullets I recommend.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Federal load asked about is their 165gr Hydrashock, no?
If so,, that is a dog of a load, I wouldn't carry it.
Hornady XTP bullets work OK, but I like them better as a hunting load.
Gold Dot, Ranger-T, or HST are the bullets I recommend.
My question would be have you ever shot anyone or thing with them and pulled them out of tissue? Until you have seen what an actual 230 gr .45 ACP Hyrashock load will really do, then it's all just speculation. I have seen what they do and am happy with the Hydrashock.
Until that day,
Darkop
amen to that statement.
Shot placement is king.
Penetration is queen.
All else is suplemental.
Given proper penetration, I would prefer fragmentation to expansion.
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