View Full Version : Zero with which HD round?
So I have a question for the panel. It's about zeroing on my two rifles. With it in mind that one is 16" and other is 12.5". Also going on the fact that I use two different rounds that could come into play. HD, SHTF, anti-riot, shorter range engagements in a more residential/rural area is the mission parameter.
As a point of the assumptions I'm going on: First round is the 50g TSX loaded by Black Hills that's a better barrier round,, hotter velocity, but much shorter range, probably best inside of 185 yards or so.
Other is tbe 70g Asym loaded TSX or my, very similar to the Asym, handloaded 70g TSX. Longer range but not as barrier blind. Not terrible on barriers but not as good as the BH pills. I'm working on this round being effective, for me, as far out as I'm able to ID targets using my Aimpoint T2, without magnification.
Question is, (1) zero both with one round or the other and then just learn the different point of impact with the other round or (2) does it make more sense to zero the shorter rifle with the 50g round and the 16" with the 70 grain?
Also important, I've used a 50 yard zero from day one, 20 years ago, and am very confident making hits out to 300 yards with it, so I won't be changing that unless I move out to somewhere way more open and rural than where I live now.
Thanks for your input.
Sounds to me like you are already on top of things. Verify you are sighted in, then verify at 25, 50, 75 and 100 that you are getting your hits where you expect them. At the distances you are talking, I don't think you are going to see massive changes in POA/ POI.
I've found that any Barnes TSX, TTSX, Tac-X are all barrier blind. Ain't no magic pixy dust on the 50 grain BHills offering.
As far as sighting in, if it was me, I load the 50 grainer in the short barrel, and zero for it anywhere from 25 to 36 yards, (for repelling boarders) and I'd zero the 16" for the 70 grain pill for a 50 yd zero (for longer range vermin). Inside of 150 yds, either bullet, from either barrel should result in a plop plop with any good COM hit.
If you use each type of ammo in a particular rifle exclusively - I would go with a specific round for a rifle to avoid mixing and matching.
If you use rounds interchangeably - I would probably just stick with a single type of round for both rifles.
Otherwise you would have to learn 2 holds for each rifle. Which rifle is zeroed for what round and what round do you currently have in the mag. Shorter distance (under 100m) probably won't make much of a difference, your precision requirements will dictate that however.
Rarely (if you're lucky) - your rifles might group the same with both rounds. For example: both are zeroed round A, and impact with Round B is low right for both. Then no problem, zero both for Round A and keep in mind that round B impacts low right.
As Stick suggested, extra verification to confirm your POI is always good.
Sounds like you need to load the gun with the ammo most suitable for its intended purpose, then just check those loads between guns. There will be less difference than you think, but it can matter depending on your needs.
Don't know anything about the 70 Asym, but the BHA 50 TSX is a great load for what you're describing.
The TSX in 50 or 70 are going to be about equal on barrier performance. There’s a reason BH loads the 70 for cool guys…
There is going to be a sizable velocity difference between the two. Like 600 FPS out of the 16” (personal chrono of each round mentioned). Inside 100 it won’t make that much of a difference but understand that you can’t count on precision because of that. Think head instead of left eye.
Shoot them all between both guns and note your POI shifts. This is a good reason why I use Mk262 as a zero load and just put up with the minimal shift of 55gr for training.
Not sure it matters much, between those two. I’d likely just pick the load that shoots the best for both rifles (hopefully it’s the same one…) and run that.
I have a pretty good stockpile of both the 50 and the combo of the ASYM and my handloaded 70 grainers so want to be comfortable with both.
Thanks to all for the responses and opinions. I do appreciate it.
For HD or SHTF distance purposes, I think the POI difference will be minimal.
We train with 55 or 62 grain, whatever we can get. We carry the LE223T3 62 gr for duty use and see virtually no discernibly difference in POI shooting out to 100 yards.
The 50gr Black Hills TSX is a BH specific bullet. It is not the regular 50 gr TSX that Barnes sells for loading. It is made of a harder copper composition and will hold together better through barriers… but needs more velocity to reliably expand than the regular TSXs do.
In the end, pick a suitable bullet/load (there are many), learn how it shoots, zero the rifle for a reasonable distance, and know that where you place the bullet is probably much more important than which bullet you place there.
Yes the 50 grain loaded by BH is a different compound and is more robust than other TSX bullets, that's why I like them. Very good barrier round with a tradeoff of a reduced range but in my AOR, it's perfect. Also it is not available as a reloading component.
Took the 12.5" Troy to the range yesterday and after a quick adjustment on a three round test on the 15 yard zero target put these two on the second target at 50 yards with the 50g BH round. With the price of these bad boys, held to only two shots. The rifle has an older Aimpoint micro, R1 I believe, that has a 4 moa dot so I'm pretty happy with this. Followed up with a "fun to watch" hit on a water filled milk bottle at 100 yards just for my own edification. Cleverly forgot to bring the 70g rounds to compare point of impact...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YUxmZFcpvEFwwJxJ7 - target
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ecnsvaL8MNfJbPbXA - sacrificial milk bottle. wound was fatal
turnburglar
07-15-21, 15:10
So; I have two polar opposite views on this. Really it comes down to the end user and how serious you are about perfection.
For the average user: 556 is 556. Zero anything at 50 and you will be point of man at 300. No sweat.
For the serious shooter: Take both loads out, and shoot them next too each other. In both rifles. Note the difference in POA/POI between each load. In my experience the load with the most velocity will print higher than a slower one. You need to actually verify what this difference is. At 50y you might expect an 1" or so of deviation. At 100y this will grow to around 2".
I also dont think you should be holding a round in high regards that you aren't able to actually train with. I really dont care what experts claim which round is 'best' if you are not able to afford a sufficient amount of ammo to actually train with. I reload; and have two different "go to" loads. One is a 62gr FMJ and the other is a 77 SMK, both are loaded to 'spicy' pressures. When shooting either of these loads; even though they are 1" deviation at 50 yards; I have to account for a much different flight down range. Shooting IPSC sized steel at 300 - 500 yards I can absolutely tell the different in flight of the round. This kinda data only comes from experience. You can always add a follow up shot; because these are semi auto's after all, but I think a serious shooter should strive for first round hits at any reasonable distance.
So; I have two polar opposite views on this. Really it comes down to the end user and how serious you are about perfection.
More than the end user would it not come down to the end use and the way the gun is set up, with irons/RDS or close range training one hand, and magnified optic longer range (or precision) on the other? What's the point of training using premium ammunition for off-hand shooting at close range, no matter how serious a shooter you are?
I am with turnburglar... Staple 4 white paper plates to a target stand at 50 yards. Shoot 10 rounds of each load through both rifles at each of the 4 plates. If you get 8-10 rounds on each plate call it a day and go do something productive like mowing the grass.
turnburglar
07-15-21, 21:16
More than the end user would it not come down to the end use and the way the gun is set up, with irons/RDS or close range training one hand, and magnified optic longer range (or precision) on the other? What's the point of training using premium ammunition for off-hand shooting at close range, no matter how serious a shooter you are?
Yea, magnification makes a difference. I refer to this effect as 'sig figs', or 'significant figures'. In science sig figs are used to determine the magnitude of necessary precision. Is something measure to 1/4" good engough or do you NEED to measure it in microns? For a red dot, the precision of ammo or even zero used is much less magnified than using an 8x optic. For a red dot zero I actually prefer a 25 yard zero as its very close at 25 and 300 yards. Thats where most targets end up for me.
So; I have two polar opposite views on this. Really it comes down to the end user.
For the average user: 556 is 556. Zero anything at 50 and you will be point of man at 300. No sweat.
This is what works for me. Urban environment, longest shot given the city limits is at most 75-100 yds if chaos should erupt.
Really appreciate all the opinions. I'm thinking a combo of a bunch is how I'll go. Going to shoot 10 rounds of each (Black Hills 50g, Asym / handloaded 70g) from each rifle (12.5" & 16") and see that I can hit plate consistently at 50 yards and same for silhouette at 100 yards for starters. Then assuming that's successful, will see where the M855 is for reference and training purposes.
ViniVidivici
07-17-21, 00:16
I say zero with what you have most of, and learn your dope for other loads (as in confirm at various distances, not just calculate/estimate). For me, that's my 62gr FMJ load, I call it "Load#1".
And this middle of the road approach has my 55gr SP load a bit high, and my 75 and 77gr OTM loads a bit low, at distance. Which I like.
50 yd zero for me, with RDS or irons, 100yd zero for magnified optics.
100 yards max in “urban environments”?? Anybody ranged their local big box store/Walmart from the parking lot perimeter lately??
100 yards max in “urban environments”?? Anybody ranged their local big box store/Walmart from the parking lot perimeter lately??
Non-LE folks would have trouble justifying an engagement across a mega-store parking lot. In a WROL scenario - well, people are pretty big and being shot even 4 inches above or below center mass is bad news.
Andy
I say zero with what you have most of, and learn your dope for other loads (as in confirm at various distances, not just calculate/estimate). For me, that's my 62gr FMJ load, I call it "Load#1".
And this middle of the road approach has my 55gr SP load a bit high, and my 75 and 77gr OTM loads a bit low, at distance. Which I like.
50 yd zero for me, with RDS or irons, 100yd zero for magnified optics.
This.
I’d zero both with the 70. Heavier rounds seem to be less velocity dependent and perform better than lighter ones out of short barrels.
RichardLips
07-29-21, 10:56
I zero with my hd ammo. 62 grain hornady black. At a dollar a round it hurt the ol pocket book. But luckily it didnt take long. Everything else is just mix match 55 grain ammo.
Non-LE folks would have trouble justifying an engagement across a mega-store parking lot. In a WROL scenario - well, people are pretty big and being shot even 4 inches above or below center mass is bad news.
Andy
Assuming they're upright.
If they're like anyone with half a brain, they'll be down on the ground or behind something if they're expecting a fight.
4" high on a head might just miss.
Assuming they're upright.
If they're like anyone with half a brain, they'll be down on the ground or behind something if they're expecting a fight.
4" high on a head might just miss.
This all day.
You have to think of center mass as center of visible. If that’s a head only, 4” high is an impact 2 shopping centers away.
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