View Full Version : "You owe the Government for that lost M14"
I'm reading "The U.S. M14 Rifle: The Last Steel Warrior" (2nd Edition), which is an informative treatment of this rifle. On page 119 is a picture with this caption:
"February 14, 1968. 24 year old Ernest J. Wagner of Racine, Wisconsin with a letter from the government, stating that he owes $71.20 for an M14 rifle he lost during his tour in Vietnam. According to Wagner, he placed his weapon on a helicopter but did not board the aircraft. When the helicopter returned, his M14 was gone. An investigating officer charged him with negligence. He was given 30 days to pay or face legal action. Mr. Wagner served a year in Vietnam with the 25th Infantry Division and was honorably discharged. This story appeared in every major newspaper in the US."
I've been researching to try to find out what happened with this claim, but haven't had any luck. My guess would be that all the adverse publicity caused the Army to drop the matter, but who knows?
According to the CPI Inflation Calculator, $71.20 in 1968 would be $567.29 today.
I'd gladly pay $567.29 for an M14 today! For that matter, clone or real-deal.
Did he get the letter while he was still in Vietnam or once he got home? Probably took it out of his income tax returns.
Straight Shooter
07-17-21, 19:45
Well, damn..now Ill wonder what happened too. If you find out by all means let us know.
A friend was a crew chief on a helicopter in 1968. He was exhausted and took off his web belt to catch a nap in his assigned helicopter. He awakened a few hours later and discovered his web belt and assigned M1911 was missing. He received a reduction in rank and was ordered to pay $35 for the missing handgun.
He was issued another M1911, which he carried until he was wounded and transported to a field hospital. After recovery, he returned to his unit and was issued the missing M1911. Talk about a kick in the gut.
A friend was a crew chief on a helicopter in 1968. He was exhausted and took off his web belt to catch a nap in his assigned helicopter. He awakened a few hours later and discovered his web belt and assigned M1911 was missing. He received a reduction in rank and was ordered to pay $35 for the missing handgun.
He was issued another M1911, which he carried until he was wounded and transported to a field hospital. After recovery, he returned to his unit and was issued the missing M1911. Talk about a kick in the gut.
That is some serious BS. If you got caught stealing, selling or otherwise misappropriating things that is one thing. But if somebody stole it from you that's blaming the victim.
I can almost see being blamed for putting it on a helo you didn't get on, but even that is a stretch. I have to imagine it was one of those "lots of other things were going on and in the confusion..." situations and it's damn shitty to blame somebody who voluntarily joined or was drafted into the situation.
Think how much it costs when we bomb the wrong target (and that happens way more often than it should) and nobody has to pay for that spent ordnance. So it's pretty shitty when guys get nickel and dimed to death over small arms.
I'm fine with "don't lose it again" shit duty for a month to remind you to take better care of your things but fines and reduction in rank (except in cases of genuine gross negligence) are simply chickenshit.
That is some serious BS. If you got caught stealing, selling or otherwise misappropriating things that is one thing. But if somebody stole it from you that's blaming the victim.
I can almost see being blamed for putting it on a helo you didn't get on, but even that is a stretch. I have to imagine it was one of those "lots of other things were going on and in the confusion..." situations and it's damn shitty to blame somebody who voluntarily joined or was drafted into the situation.
Think how much it costs when we bomb the wrong target (and that happens way more often than it should) and nobody has to pay for that spent ordnance. So it's pretty shitty when guys get nickel and dimed to death over small arms.
I'm fine with "don't lose it again" shit duty for a month to remind you to take better care of your things but fines and reduction in rank (except in cases of genuine gross negligence) are simply chickenshit.
Welcome to the US Military.
Welcome to the US Military.
If ever I ended of Commander in Chief, I would speak to those in charge of making such policies the way a Marine DI speaks to a platoon of boots who just navigated to the wrong side of the map.
In so many ways our military is one of our most valuable commodities. If it were up to me they'd enjoy almost samurai status, wanting for nothing while they perfect their craft and ranked according to ability. And those who try to game the system for political advancement or other personal gain shall be viewed as the person who has brought dishonor to you all.
Averageman
07-18-21, 04:56
That is some serious BS. If you got caught stealing, selling or otherwise misappropriating things that is one thing. But if somebody stole it from you that's blaming the victim.
I can almost see being blamed for putting it on a helo you didn't get on, but even that is a stretch. I have to imagine it was one of those "lots of other things were going on and in the confusion..." situations and it's damn shitty to blame somebody who voluntarily joined or was drafted into the situation.
Think how much it costs when we bomb the wrong target (and that happens way more often than it should) and nobody has to pay for that spent ordnance. So it's pretty shitty when guys get nickel and dimed to death over small arms.
I'm fine with "don't lose it again" shit duty for a month to remind you to take better care of your things but fines and reduction in rank (except in cases of genuine gross negligence) are simply chickenshit.
Very noble idea and I support that mind set, well, right up until the "Guy Who Ruins Everything" shows up to steal a gun.
The Military has a lot of stupid stuff going on all the time. Going a bit overboard on weapons security, in a war zone should be normal. I would imagine as a Leader, I made it a point to see everyone's personal weapon a couple of times a day.
If ever I ended of Commander in Chief, I would speak to those in charge of making such policies the way a Marine DI speaks to a platoon of boots who just navigated to the wrong side of the map.
In so many ways our military is one of our most valuable commodities. If it were up to me they'd enjoy almost samurai status, wanting for nothing while they perfect their craft and ranked according to ability. And those who try to game the system for political advancement or other personal gain shall be viewed as the person who has brought dishonor to you all.
Do you feel that way about the new "woke commie" military we have now?
That is some serious BS. If you got caught stealing, selling or otherwise misappropriating things that is one thing. But if somebody stole it from you that's blaming the victim.
I can almost see being blamed for putting it on a helo you didn't get on, but even that is a stretch. I have to imagine it was one of those "lots of other things were going on and in the confusion..." situations and it's damn shitty to blame somebody who voluntarily joined or was drafted into the situation.
Think how much it costs when we bomb the wrong target (and that happens way more often than it should) and nobody has to pay for that spent ordnance. So it's pretty shitty when guys get nickel and dimed to death over small arms.
I'm fine with "don't lose it again" shit duty for a month to remind you to take better care of your things but fines and reduction in rank (except in cases of genuine gross negligence) are simply chickenshit.
I had to pay for (replace) an E-tool someone stole off my ruck in the field. Still pisses me off.
"There is only one thief in the Army, the rest of us are just getting our s#!t back".
Andy
Never lost or had stolen a piece of issue gear, personal YES! Never heard of guys being ordered to pay for such other than "additional duty" or NJP if it was particularly negligent.
I can say I'm really, really glad I didn't have to pay for all of the really expensive shit I broke or otherwise rendered unserviceable. ;)
Averageman
07-18-21, 10:31
Never lost or had stolen a piece of issue gear, Never heard of guys being ordered to pay for such other than "additional duty" or NJP if it was particularly negligent. ;)
You missed the fun part.
We had a real hardcore Battalion Commander, when we went to the Border to look at our fighting positions overlooking the Fulda Gap, he placed certain area's as "No Maneuver", mostly to protect ancient ruins and artifacts.
All it took was for one 2nd Lieutenant to totally destroy a set of statues that were likely a thousand years old.
Yeah, he had to pay.
After I got my commission, and about a year, year and a half after leaving my last unit as a corpsman, I got a bill in the mail for every bit of my 782 gear....like $500 and change.
I was like hold up. I dug through all of my crap and found a receipt from S4. I made about five copies, and mailed them one. Never heard another word about it.
They will absolutely charge you for missing gear, lost gear, gear adrift, whatever. And a weapon?? Shoooooo.... That's serious business.
Yeah, the Army really, really, really doesn't like missing weapons or other sensitive gear. As for other issued equipment, as long as they got the money they didn't care.
When I got back from my last deployment, I was retiring just a couple of years later, there were certain items I wanted to keep. Upon turn-in, I added up the cost of what I wanted to keep and wrote a check. Good to go.
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Do you feel that way about the new "woke commie" military we have now?
Are they warfighters spending all their hours to become more perfect warfighters? Are all their efforts ultimately directed to support, protect and defend the Constitution? If not, then no.
And if they are in violation of the "true faith and allegiance" part of their oath, they are gone. That is something where I can see reduction of rank, less than honorable discharge and the like.
ThirdWatcher
07-18-21, 20:39
When I served you couldn’t ETS until your gear was turned in and you paid to replace anything missing. Most gear isn’t that expensive and if you wanna get on with life, you square the books. Just the cost of doing business.
The dreaded "Statement of Charges"!
When I PCS'd out of Panama you had to turn in everything.....like the issued jungle fatigues (5 sets) and jungle boots (2 sets). Yep, that's right. I was in an Infantry unit no less! Who the hell wants old wore-out fatigues and boots? (after 3 years there I had swapped out a few sets of fatigues) Probably gave them to the Contras or some such thing. I wanted to keep one pair of jungle boots that I had kept mostly for garrison wear, and 2 sets of jungle fatigues. Said screw it, send me a statement of charges, and they submitted it to Finance as I cleared CIF.
The dreaded "Statement of Charges"!
When I PCS'd out of Panama you had to turn in everything.....like the issued jungle fatigues (5 sets) and jungle boots (2 sets). Yep, that's right. I was in an Infantry unit no less! Who the hell wants old wore-out fatigues and boots? (after 3 years there I had swapped out a few sets of fatigues) Probably gave them to the Contras or some such thing. I wanted to keep one pair of jungle boots that I had kept mostly for garrison wear, and 2 sets of jungle fatigues. Said screw it, send me a statement of charges, and they submitted it to Finance as I cleared CIF.
Ah, yes, the dreaded "organizational clothing" policy. I agree, to me it made no sense turning in stuff that was permanently sweat stained, or something like footwear (boots).
What made it even worse was after you turned it in 2/3 of it went to the DRMO bin. I learned how to make friends in the S4 shop, I would turn in some of those things, then go to the DRMO warehouse the next day while they're on lunch and I would find my stuff and take it back lol.
I have pictures of my dad in Vietnam with jungle boots wearing the old classic ERDL cammies. He died when I was really young so I never asked him about it, but I do know that we didn't have those after he retired from the Marines. I asked a cousin about it who is also in the Marines in Vietnam, he said that before they flew out of the country at the end of the tour they went through a line in a warehouse where they had their sea bags stored so they could change, three all the ERDL cammies into a box and then they changed back into their regular ODs.
This thread teminded me how clearing CIF sucked. Korea had a bad reputation, so I gamed the system a bit to make sure I had plenty of time before PCS. When one of the Korean ladies pointed out that was not clean enough, I just said "yes Ma'am, I will take care of that and bring it back." It was no big deal and anticipated, I had time. She gave me a strange look, I smiled, and she not only accepted my item, she said something in Hangul to the next station. I walked through the turn in line with no issues at all.
It was a life lesson that has helped me with the VA.
Andy
I remember when my platoon returned from MWTC, we turned in every single piece of cold weather gear we were issued PLUS about $582 worth of extras. People would loose bits and pieces over the long cold weeks of training and we'd just pick them up. We probably lost a few bits as well, but they were made up for by the ones we found, plus some.
I remember one time there was an armory audit and our battalion was over 100 short on M16 mags. The unit armory NCOIC came around the barracks and asked anyone who had any extras to turn them in, so I handed him 5 mags for the cause. The very same NCOIC a month later tried to ding me for 6 mags that I'd turned in in the past (and had gotten signed off on). I went to the armory and just gave him the "Son, I am disappoint" face. He sheepishly took the form and tore it up. Like dude, don't shaft me after I already helped you as much as I could! :(
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