View Full Version : Geissele rifles & uppers.
Do you guys feel that Geissele rifles & uppers are top tier (like the prices they are asking for them) like KAC, Noveske, BCM, DD etc? Or should I go with a different brand? Thanks.
I’ve had them all. I believe Geissele currently makes the best conventional DI gun on the market.
Properly gassed, pinned block, chrome lined, nice fit and finish, and some of the best controls on the market. Also, at least for my preferences, ready to go out of the box (almost). When you consider what you get in features at the sale or coupon prices that can be easily had, it’s a no brainer for me.
Nope, not at all. All of those brands have been around for a long time and have been proven many times over. It’s possible that they will be on an equal playing field one day, and many that have their guns are strong supporters, but they have a long way to go IMO.
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sidewaysil80
07-27-21, 07:49
Second the best DI gun on the market comment. Regardless of how long other companies have been around, the materials and craftsmanship in which they are building rifles, combined with their previous products and proven performance in austere environments confirm their quality/longevity. About the only thing that would be hard to test/confirm is their reports of bolt lug longevity due to forged design/steel. The only other company offering such an enhancement is Knights, and E3 lug has been around long enough to prove itself durable. Assuming the Geissele design works as advertised (I'm sure they tested and R&D'd extensively) it has the advantage to E3 design due to it being interchangeable with standard bolts/barrels.
The most significant features to me are:
-reduced dwell time by using custom gas length
-properly sized gas port in conjunction with said gas port
-forged bolt with higher grade steel
-centering tab in rails/upper
In addition to the above, the fact you get a surefire warcomp, arguably the best ar trigger available, H2 buffer, and enhanced controls...all at $1500 LESS then it's only competitor with such features makes it a no brainer.
I’ve had them all. I believe Geissele currently makes the best conventional DI gun on the market.
Properly gassed, pinned block, chrome lined, nice fit and finish, and some of the best controls on the market. Also, at least for my preferences, ready to go out of the box (almost). When you consider what you get in features at the sale or coupon prices that can be easily had, it’s a no brainer for me.
I agree.
everready73
07-27-21, 08:49
Nope, not at all. All of those brands have been around for a long time and have been proven many times over. It’s possible that they will be on an equal playing field one day, and many that have their guns are strong supporters, but they have a long way to go IMO.
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I agree with this and stick with them for accessories. They are cutting some corners on new guns as well. They black oxide the barrels now, not phosphate. It doesnt hold up as well. Also multiple price increases. You can get better for the same money, or less IMO. They may be there someday but not now
Illustrator76
07-27-21, 09:07
Nope, not at all. All of those brands have been around for a long time and have been proven many times over. It’s possible that they will be on an equal playing field one day, and many that have their guns are strong supporters, but they have a long way to go IMO.
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I'm surprised to hear you say that. Pretty much EVERYWHERE that I go it's a fairly unanimous opinion that it's Geissele for everything, and don't even ask anymore questions. Just get the Geissele and rest easy because everything they make is top tier. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm just a bit surprised to hear this viewpoint.
Meh… The Geissele BCG is interesting but nothing else about the gun interests me or stands out. IMO, LMT and KAC are where the innovation and improvements are.
Say you buy a Colt 6920, by the time you change the trigger, gas block, charging Handle, rail, bolt catch, buffer and muzzle device, you’re already at Geissele money and it’s still overgassed. I should mention, I shoot suppressed exclusively so proper gassing is crucial to me and I don’t do adjustable gas blocks after I had one fail in the middle of a 2Gun match. The nano coating, gimmicky or not, makes cleaning a breeze. Love Geissele. I have 4.
everready73
07-27-21, 10:04
I'm surprised to hear you say that. Pretty much EVERYWHERE that I go it's a fairly unanimous opinion that it's Geissele for everything, and don't even ask anymore questions. Just get the Geissele and rest easy because everything they make is top tier. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm just a bit surprised to hear this viewpoint.
Their triggers, handguards, mounts and some other stuff is great although a bit pricey. I can get a Larue MBT that is almost as good as the SSA-E for less than half the cost, but i do have G triggers.
The guns are still a work in progress and there is no good data of long term use. They are switching out to nitride barrels on a lot of the guns and using black oxide instead of phosphate on the chrome barrels. Stock levels are anemic as well.
sidewaysil80
07-27-21, 10:30
You can get better for the same money, or less IMO. They may be there someday but not now
What manufacturer specifically and what makes it better?
Meh… The Geissele BCG is interesting but nothing else about the gun interests me or stands out. IMO, LMT and KAC are where the innovation and improvements are.
Realistically, the only real advantage KAC has is the ambi-lower. gas system, improved bolt, handguard interface...other then price there isn't really an advantage. Not to mention KAC recently enlarged their gas port on the mod 2's, so one could argue that Geissele's gas system is superior.
Their triggers, handguards, mounts and some other stuff is great although a bit pricey. I can get a Larue MBT that is almost as good as the SSA-E for less than half the cost, but i do have G triggers.
The guns are still a work in progress and there is no good data of long term use. They are switching out to nitride barrels on a lot of the guns and using black oxide instead of phosphate on the chrome barrels. Stock levels are anemic as well.
“A mag phos, CHF, Chrome lined barrel OR Nitride CHF barrel.”
As far as I know they are not discontinuing chrome, just adding nitride as an additional variety.
As far as black oxide exterior, Geissele says they’re good to go, and none of their products have ever had an issue in my hands, but I don’t drop them rail first from helicopters. YMMV.
I would trust a Geissele based on the BCG and Triggers I have. I think they probably make a quality rifle, but I personally haven't put my hands on one yet. I know that they were using DD barrels for a minute, which I always liked even if they were government profile. Not sure if they are going through DD still for them or another source, or making their own. I know that they have grown exponentially in the recent years, which can lead to QC issues if not properly managed (again I mention DD). As for the price, I have seen them at $1950 for a 14.5 midlength gun, which seems slightly high to me.
I handled one and they felt good and their specs are pretty impressive. I wished I needed an AR, id buy one.
PB
sidewaysil80
07-27-21, 14:29
I would trust a Geissele based on the BCG and Triggers I have. I think they probably make a quality rifle, but I personally haven't put my hands on one yet. I know that they were using DD barrels for a minute, which I always liked even if they were government profile. Not sure if they are going through DD still for them or another source, or making their own. I know that they have grown exponentially in the recent years, which can lead to QC issues if not properly managed (again I mention DD). As for the price, I have seen them at $1950 for a 14.5 midlength gun, which seems slightly high to me.
I don’t recall them ever using DD barrels. I believe from inception they were made in house.
I don’t recall them ever using DD barrels. I believe from inception they were made in house.
The original URG-I uppers used DD barrels. I have a 10.3 SBR’d with a few k through it.
They are now making their own.
I like their triggers & rails. I like what they did with the AR bolt. My boutique ARs are DD & BCM from almost a decade ago, but i wouldn’t hesitate to buy a Geissele. John is more of a metal nerd than i would ever be capable of. Never had to return anything, so i can’t comment on Geissele CS.
I’m no fan of Colt. They may have set the standard decades ago, but their follow-through is as poor as their CS. I’d buy Geissele, FN or the others you mentioned way before any current production Colt.
Do you guys feel that Geissele rifles & uppers are top tier (like the prices they are asking for them) like KAC, Noveske, BCM, DD etc? Or should I go with a different brand? Thanks.
Geissele is a premium manufacturer at least as good as the others you've mentioned.
Personally, I would put Geissele probably at the same level as KAC and possibly above others. Primary reason - they do a lot of their manufacturing in-house and expanded product lines significantly. I also like that Geissele is responsive to consumer's needs in both product lines and variations.
I've been critical of Geissele's products in number of cases where, in my opinion, criticism was warranted or the product was outright dubious. But this was not meant to take away from their innovative and iterative approach to firearms or accessory design and manufacturing.
They've been better than the most manufacturers in responding to consumer's needs. They also do not seem to cut corners in manufacturing or assembly.
I would like to see Geissele come out with a design similar to HK416/417 and FNC/AK5 in a few calibers. Or maybe take ownership of ACR and do things right with that platform. I think it would be very interesting and refreshing development.
The original URG-I uppers used DD barrels. I have a 10.3 SBR’d with a few k through it.
They are now making their own.
Thanks for clarifying, I know that they used them with the URG's per Mrgunsandgear (www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoXyzkM4ni4) and I thought that there was an interview that Bill had stated they were using DD until they could make their own.
I would like to see Geissele come out with a design similar to HK416/417 and FNC/AK5 in a few calibers. Or maybe take ownership of ACR and do things right with that platform. I think it would be very interesting and refreshing development.
This would be great, hell anyone could probably take over the ACR and improve on Bushy and Remington's civilian offerings, but I'm sure Geissele would do a damn fine job at it.
sidewaysil80
07-27-21, 17:14
The original URG-I uppers used DD barrels. I have a 10.3 SBR’d with a few k through it.
They are now making their own.
Yep, completely forgot about those. I was only thinking in regard to their complete rifles, but I stand corrected.
I'm surprised to hear you say that. Pretty much EVERYWHERE that I go it's a fairly unanimous opinion that it's Geissele for everything, and don't even ask anymore questions. Just get the Geissele and rest easy because everything they make is top tier. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm just a bit surprised to hear this viewpoint.
Triggers, mounts, rails - absolutely. Their rifles could be the best of the best, I just don't think they can be compared until the others in the OP until they've been around much longer and in much wider use.
Or maybe take ownership of ACR and do things right with that platform. I think it would be very interesting and refreshing development.
This would be great, hell anyone could probably take over the ACR and improve on Bushy and Remington's civilian offerings, but I'm sure Geissele would do a damn fine job at it.
Is the ACR relevant anywhere but the internet?
I know that they have grown exponentially in the recent years, which can lead to QC issues if not properly managed (again I mention DD).
A bit off topic, but has DD been known to have QC issues due to expansion? If so, what were problematic years?
I trust Geissele triggers and mounts, but I must say the rail situation was not handled very well by them.
A bit off topic, but has DD been known to have QC issues due to expansion? If so, what were problematic years?
I trust Geissele triggers and mounts, but I must say the rail situation was not handled very well by them.
Black Friday a couple of years ago was also not handled well by Geissele.
Is the ACR relevant anywhere but the internet?
Not to sidetrack the topic:
I don't think it's relevant because it was never matured by whoever was designing or manufacturing it at the time.
I think it has a good potential to rival many modern rifles if it went through an extensive maturity cycle.
There is, of course patents and economy of scale issue. Even such a wide-spread rifle as SCAR does not enjoy a 5% support of M4 platform. Simply because aftermarket companies can't legally manufacture copies, and if they can capture 95% of the market with M4 parts and accessories - why bother with SCAR's 5% share?
Most likely same situation stands with HK416/417 - companies simply can't produce copies or parts because HK would sue them for patent violations and such. If a company wants to make ACR successful on a large market scale - they need to release full specs to the public and allow other companies to use or contribute to the design. Maybe something similar to Magpul's MLOK arrangement or even more permissive.
Situation is reverse with AK platform - in the last 4-5 years every bubba now thinks because they have a CNC machine or can order cast parts they have a technical expertise of gigantic soviet factories and decades of experience and testing of firearm design bureaus; and can reverse engineer and manufacture AKs in various calibers. We all know how it went. US companies using their own parts (not part imported part kits) and unskilled assembly lines could not match not only Soviet, but also Bulgarian, Romanian, or Chinese production. Laughable, but true - apparently blueprints, processes at various stages, parts and material specifications matter.
A bit off topic, but has DD been known to have QC issues due to expansion? If so, what were problematic years?
I trust Geissele triggers and mounts, but I must say the rail situation was not handled very well by them.
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Geissele is a solid company and I don’t doubt they can do an AR15 right. That said, their mounts and rails and everything that (possibly) isn’t a full rifle is ridiculously over expensive. They also have some of the worst fanboys I’ve ever run into… I’ve run into people who crow about Geissele mounts and trash LaRue.
Geissele is a solid company and I don’t doubt they can do an AR15 right. That said, their mounts and rails and everything that (possibly) isn’t a full rifle is ridiculously over expensive. They also have some of the worst fanboys I’ve ever run into… I’ve run into people who crow about Geissele mounts and trash LaRue.
Have you looked at KAC pricing lately? :D I like Geissele products in general (I have a few of their triggers) but also tend to agree that they ask top tier pricing. When I can get a Centurion rail for almost a hundred bucks less....... And while I do like the triggers of theirs that I do have, I recently picked up a LaRue MBT 2S that's pretty darn good for 90 bucks shipped. Side by side with my G2S it's very hard to justify the price difference. You can pick up one of their blem rifles right now on their site for 1600 bucks. For that same price I can come close to a Centurion configured the way I want it. That decision would be pretty easy for me. Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing them. They are local to me and I have no problem spending money on their products. But I also think there are other options out there in the same price range when it comes to fully built rifles that would intrigue me more. Now, full pop at close to 2k? Nope. And I agree, the fanboys are a bit over the top.
I like Geissele AND LaRue mounts.
Scalarworks is cool too.
Illustrator76
07-28-21, 19:53
Geissele is a solid company and I don’t doubt they can do an AR15 right. That said, their mounts and rails and everything that (possibly) isn’t a full rifle is ridiculously over expensive. They also have some of the worst fanboys I’ve ever run into… I’ve run into people who crow about Geissele mounts and trash LaRue.
I was looking at one of their rails, but the price is what made me pass. Got something else that I liked just as much for literally half the price. A few of their rails are over 6 bills. That's beyond ridiculous. They feel like the "Apple" of the rifle parts industry to me.
Food for thought: Sometimes, a manufacturer has an inflated sense of self or is pretty proud of their widgets and prices them to be premium. Other times, a product is manufactured at the behest of a customer group with a particular need, to certain specifications, undergoes proprietary testing, and then that particular product is made more widely available, and/or the development and manufacturing process carries over into other skus in the catalog.
Food for thought: Sometimes, a manufacturer has an inflated sense of self or is pretty proud of their widgets and prices them to be premium. Other times, a product is manufactured at the behest of a customer group with a particular need, to certain specifications, undergoes proprietary testing, and then that particular product is made more widely available, and/or the development and manufacturing process carries over into other skus in the catalog.
It’s also worth pointing out that you can’t sell something cheaper to the civilian market than you are to the GOV. Design something for the government and you are probably rolling the cost of R&D into the product. You can’t drop that price down just to make the internet happy.
It’s also worth pointing out that you can’t sell something cheaper to the civilian market than you are to the GOV. Design something for the government and you are probably rolling the cost of R&D into the product. You can’t drop that price down just to make the internet happy.
Can't, as in illegal, or bad form that would cost all future contracts?
Can't, as in illegal, or bad form that would cost all future contracts?
As in some individuals will happily pay 10x the price just to have the gov-contracted item regardless of item's performance or scope of use.
- Below is Not a directed at Geissele in any mean or fashion. But I've seen it done by other smaller companies -
There are plenty of cases where some branch merely evaluated the product in some sort of test and companies were pushing it "as seen in use by US mil" and "outperformed all others in mil tests" and etc. There are cases out there. Whenever a product performed up to a standard or not (and what standard), or if product was ever adopted and to what extent is typically omitted.
So:
1- Geissele is expensive: when you count the parts included, I disagree.
2- Geissele rails allegedly bend: None of mine have.
[emoji2371]
USMC_Anglico
07-29-21, 06:26
Can't, as in illegal, or bad form that would cost all future contracts?
Can't in that if the price drops, the .GOV gets the price drop too and there goes all of your profit
So:
1- Geissele is expensive: when you count the parts included, I disagree.
2- Geissele rails allegedly bend: None of mine have.
[emoji2371]
When have the Geissele rails bent? Is this what was meant when someone said “rail gate.” I’m unfamiliar with this, did they have a batch of defective rails or something?
When have the Geissele rails bent? Is this what was meant when someone said “rail gate.” I’m unfamiliar with this, did they have a batch of defective rails or something?
Railgate or call them “bendy.” I smash my mk16 VFG-first into barricades on a regular basis and nothing.
longshot2000
07-31-21, 06:06
I always enjoy reading the passion people have about rifle brands and components.
There are so many great brands or AR weapons available. I think each has its own character and characteristics, and the beans mentioned have different objectives or missions to fulfill.
We are huge fans of the traditional military rifles fro LMT and FN and most Colt.
Geissele Super Duty is not in that class. It is more of a finely tuned rifle than a battle beast. Personally, I love them. Holding A DDC or Luna Black 14.5” rile is like a work of art, and not to improve upon, just add furniture.
One could argue that there are parts and thus cost that are marketing, but there is solid engineering behind the marketing. You may not NEED that engineering, like re-coating a fully coated muzzle device, it it does remove carbon a little bettter than standard DLC. I think Geissele build the best gas block in the business, but that is engineering a product that already worked fine for most, but is is great design work.
The barrels are the question in my mind. I trust Geissele to build quality, but I know how much effort goes into building a good barrel, and their output has zigged and zagged from Phosphate to Nitride coatings to black oxide and even between CHF and button cut. In my opinion, there was not a reason to make in-house barrels, when there are so many good and great barrel companies already making barrels, and making a barrel is much different (skills, materials, machinery, processes) than cutting rails out of aluminum or making triggers. I trust they will work through their productions NS settle on barrel fundamentals.
So, I would not compare Geissele to LMT of Knights, but maybe to Barrett REC7. Darn good quality and a great fit and finish.
^ I’d agree with some of that.
Serious question: What do you think they’re missing to be “battle beasts?”
sidewaysil80
07-31-21, 06:20
I always enjoy reading the passion people have about rifle brands and components.
There are so many great brands or AR weapons available. I think each has its own character and characteristics, and the beans mentioned have different objectives or missions to fulfill.
We are huge fans of the traditional military rifles fro LMT and FN and most Colt.
Geissele Super Duty is not in that class. It is more of a finely tuned rifle than a battle beast. Personally, I love them. Holding A DDC or Luna Black 14.5” rile is like a work of art, and not to improve upon, just add furniture.
One could argue that there are parts and thus cost that are marketing, but there is solid engineering behind the marketing. You may not NEED that engineering, like re-coating a fully coated muzzle device, it it does remove carbon a little bettter than standard DLC. I think Geissele build the best gas block in the business, but that is engineering a product that already worked fine for most, but is is great design work.
The barrels are the question in my mind. I trust Geissele to build quality, but I know how much effort goes into building a good barrel, and their output has zigged and zagged from Phosphate to Nitride coatings to black oxide and even between CHF and button cut. In my opinion, there was not a reason to make in-house barrels, when there are so many good and great barrel companies already making barrels, and making a barrel is much different (skills, materials, machinery, processes) than cutting rails out of aluminum or making triggers. I trust they will work through their productions NS settle on barrel fundamentals.
So, I would not compare Geissele to LMT of Knights, but maybe to Barrett REC7. Darn good quality and a great fit and finish.
What is it lacking in your opinion be considered among KAC or LMT?
Can't in that if the price drops, the .GOV gets the price drop too and there goes all of your profitThat would be why Leupold had an asinine upcharge for illumination on the mk6 3-18
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They make tier 1 stuff.
Just for context. I worked as a tool maker for 11 years before my current job which is being the chief armorer and armorer instructor for a large department, I also teach armorers of other departments. I started my armorer’s gig with a fleet of old original Bushmaster XM-16 E2 carbines 16 years ago, so I have some historical perspective on the system. Now I maintain a fleet of LE6920’s and Stag model 1’s at work, I’m thrifty with your tax dollars. I build personally owned rifles for many of our officers to suit their needs and have used many different manufacturers for this.
My duty weapon is an LMT MRP with an enhanced BCG, I just can’t seem wear it out and it’s a 1.5 MOA gun. But that said, I’ve had to send back 2 LMT MRP guns and the accuracy on one of them frankly sucked even with handloads (2.5 MOA at best).
My experience with KAC was good but the fit and finish left a lot to be desired, not that it mattered for a trunk rifle.
I shoot G rifles and SBR’s off duty and they’ve all been excellent, they’re the only ones I don’t use a BRT gas tube in as the G’s are gassed just right. The 16” inch one I benched is a 1 MOA gun with my 77gr load while an 11.5 is close to that.
Prior to owning the G’s, the nicest (fit/finish) gun I’ve ever seen was a Noveske infidel but the G’s beat it and plus, I “had” to upgrade the trigger on the Infidel.
I have a lot of gauges and measuring tools from my machinist days and enjoy nerding out with checking the specs on guns. The G’s I’ve measured were great and I do have the TDP which I got after hours at one of my armorer courses.
I enjoy looking at the small details on my G rifles which I’ve seen attended to and possibly upgraded from Mil-spec by G. It’s obvious to me, based on my previous experience, that G employs well educated engineers. G quite apparently, has no problem implementing these sometimes small changes even though the items are harder to manufacture. Just one example, Machining H-13 is a pain in the ass but the material characteristics make it a great choice for a cam pin.
The only knock is that their back order times can be long, as in months.
With all that long winded crap said, I’m just one random guy on the internet with an opinion like everyone else.
Are they premium? The ones I’ve seen are but what does that even mean? Are they a good value? For me they are.
YMMV
Five_Point_Five_Six
07-31-21, 13:01
This thread is great. We've got guys comparing G rifles to KAC, LMT, and others with decades of proven use stacking bodies around the globe, and a guy claiming to have a copy of the TDP he got "after hours" at an armorers course.
If “stacking bodies around the globe” is the ultimate measurement of quality, AKM’s are far superior to KAC and LMT…
If “stacking bodies around the globe” is the ultimate measurement of quality, AKM’s are far superior to KAC and LMT…
The stacked bodies were carrying AKMs.
The stacked bodies were carrying AKMs.
Naturally.
longshot2000
07-31-21, 17:56
What is it lacking in your opinion be considered among KAC or LMT?
I do t think anything is lacking in LMT and KAC. I think Rifles like Geissele, Noveske, Barrett and LaRue have much better “fit and finish.” LMT I think makes some of the rifles ever. They are battle rifles. Some accurate sniper rifles. KAC as well with SR25. Not made fir cosmetics they way the other aforementioned brands are.
Personal opinion: sometimes KAC complicates things with proprietary parts fir no apparent functional reason, but clearly KAC makes a top-shelf rifle.
Just my thought.
When first going intermediate “battle rifle” for duty, even if proprietary, I chose SCAR16. I found it suppresses much better than the KAC I had.
Then SCAR16 supply dried up, and realizing it would be hard to replace if something happened to it at work, I decided to replace it with G-SD-10.3.”
Point being, if going proprietary, I find SCAR fits my needs best. If conventional DI, G guns get my vote.
Just give me a plain old BCM midlength with a quad rail..lol
I like Geissele triggers..I have 3 of them, I fondled the Super Dutys at local gun shops but I can't justify the price....
Just give me a plain old BCM midlength with a quad rail..lol
I like Geissele triggers..I have 3 of them, I fondled the Super Dutys at local gun shops but I can't justify the price....
Love BCM as well.
But a completes seem to be going for 1500. However, if you put a good G trigger in it, you’re up to G money without the several upgrades G offers for equivalent money. In that case, to me, BCM doesn’t make sense anymore than buying a $1k colt and adding $750 worth of parts to it. Or if it makes more sense, a base Mustang and adding $20k or parts to it, when you could’ve bought a Shelby.
Love BCM as well.
But a completes seem to be going for 1500. However, if you put a good G trigger in it, you’re up to G money without the several upgrades G offers for equivalent money. In that case, to me, BCM doesn’t make sense anymore than buying a $1k colt and adding $750 worth of parts to it. Or if it makes more sense, a base Mustang and adding $20k or parts to it, when you could’ve bought a Shelby.
It's all in the name don't ya know!
Love BCM as well.
But a completes seem to be going for 1500. However, if you put a good G trigger in it, you’re up to G money without the several upgrades G offers for equivalent money. In that case, to me, BCM doesn’t make sense anymore than buying a $1k colt and adding $750 worth of parts to it. Or if it makes more sense, a base Mustang and adding $20k or parts to it, when you could’ve bought a Shelby.
Bought mine years ago...complete lowers for $325 and upper for $439 then add quad for $150 and discounted SSA for $165...
I wouldn't buy anything now...hyper inflation of the market..... well except for the Larue Ultimate Upper I got along with a stripped billet lower coming in at about $1050 or so..
The Super Duty rifles are top shelf.
They aren't KAC, but then neither is BCM.
They aren't a particularly good value though, at current full price. Or, are they? Price out a complete BCM upper with MCMR and BCG, then a lower and LPK/safety/trigger equivalent to what the Super Duty comes with, and a Super-42 (or equal or better) buffer system, and B5 stock, and you might end up at about the same price as a Super Duty, depending on the deal(s) you get.
The last basic BCM I put together cost more than my Super Duties...though I never paid full retail for them (as many didn't)
Their keyed rail-receiver interface is unrivaled.
You could spend a little less on a BCM but you’re getting a lot less with their rail. I used to be a big fan, but after taking a few apart, they’re cheezy.
Their keyed rail-receiver interface is unrivaled.
You could spend a little less on a BCM but you’re getting a lot less with their rail…
And trigger and bolt catch and charging handle and BCG, and trigger guard, and muzzle device.
grizzlyblake
08-01-21, 20:29
A standard BCM 16” upper is $915, and the lowers are $395. So $1310 for the rifle.
The 16” Geissele is $1975.
A KAC SR15 is $2349.
Shouldn’t the comparison be between G and KAC since they’re closer in price?
A standard BCM 16” upper is $915, and the lowers are $395. So $1310 for the rifle.
The 16” Geissele is $1975.
A KAC SR15 is $2349.
Shouldn’t the comparison be between G and KAC since they’re closer in price?
Do you think the standard BCM upper pricing is the one you should use for an apt comparison, why not a BFH? With BCG and CH I think those are >$1k, yes?
Do you happen to have a link to where I could buy that KAC?
When I priced it out, basic Bcm was like 1400.
Geissele is 1800 after brownells coupons.
grizzlyblake
08-01-21, 21:37
Do you think the standard BCM upper pricing is the one you should use for an apt comparison, why not a BFH? With BCG and CH I think those are >$1k, yes?
Do you happen to have a link to where I could buy that KAC?
I think SR15s are out of stock everywhere but Kelly Enterprises has that price.
https://www.kellyenterprises.net/knight-s-armament-rifles-on-sale/knights-armament-sr-15-mod-2-mlok-rifle-detail.html
The BFH uppers are $1k, so a $1400 rifle.
I’m not saying Geissele is bad, just looks like about a $400 - 500 spread from BCM > G > KAC.
Geissele LE Duty rifles are $1500.
Haven’t bought one though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think SR15s are out of stock everywhere but Kelly Enterprises has that price.
https://www.kellyenterprises.net/knight-s-armament-rifles-on-sale/knights-armament-sr-15-mod-2-mlok-rifle-detail.html
The BFH uppers are $1k, so a $1400 rifle.
I’m not saying Geissele is bad, just looks like about a $400 - 500 spread from BCM > G > KAC.
It's all about having bought at the 2019 Black Friday sale (starting at like $1,100 for a Super Duty) or getting your hands on a coupon since then. My 14.5" Super Duty was $1,519 this year...almost exactly what my BCM assembly cost, but the Geissele is better (trigger, REBCG, SF flash hider, LPK, overall finish)
Both are more rifle than I need so whatever
call_me_ski
08-02-21, 09:17
Their keyed rail-receiver interface is unrivaled.
Plenty of rivals in that regard out there. Hodge, Noveske, Zev, SOLGW, Triarc have all used a steel pin to the same result for longer than Geissele. HK, Sig and Barrett have used the keyed interface before geissele. Hell, Colt and LMT have monolithic uppers from 7075T6 which makes all the discussion of bendy rails and handguard interface silly talk.
I think Geissele’s most interesting upgrade is their Bolt carrier group.
I think Geissele’s most interesting upgrade is their Bolt carrier group.
I agree. I wonder if there was as much testing put into it as the LMT enhanced or KAC E3.
The hand waving around pricing kind of bugs me. Right now you can pick up a black blem 16" Super Duty for $1580.
The black non-blem 16 or 14.5 lists at $1975. I have bought with a 20% coupon which gets the price to $1580 plus shipping. When I bought they did not charge me sales tax, so maybe $1650 OTD from my FFL to my safe.
I run a Surefire RC2 so the warcomp has value for me.
In my case a my most recent buy was 14.5" with the P&W warcomp and trigger I'd be buying anyway (just under $300 for the parts, plus the warcomp and charge to P&W), plus the spring upgrade etc it starts to look like a fair deal. At 8% sales tax is not trivial either.
I have SR15's. That's a different beast and a quantum leap ($7-800) in price, availability is nil right now. Same with LMT maybe just a touch under KAC in price. No coupons or price relief available from KAC/LMT.
No question it's not KAC/LMT level of a build but still very nicely done and so far a solid, smooth shooter. Jury is still out for me on durability but honestly I'm not a heavy enough user to seriously threaten wearing out a G gun.
I am seeing lightly used/unused ones for $1500 or so. Good deals IMO when you consider pretty much no need for ancillary upgrades.
Why would durability be in question?
Their triggers are proven and everything else on it is pretty much just AR stuff.
sidewaysil80
08-03-21, 23:04
The hand waving around pricing kind of bugs me. Right now you can pick up a black blem 16" Super Duty for $1580.
The black non-blem 16 or 14.5 lists at $1975. I have bought with a 20% coupon which gets the price to $1580 plus shipping. When I bought they did not charge me sales tax, so maybe $1650 OTD from my FFL to my safe.
I run a Surefire RC2 so the warcomp has value for me.
In my case a my most recent buy was 14.5" with the P&W warcomp and trigger I'd be buying anyway (just under $300 for the parts, plus the warcomp and charge to P&W), plus the spring upgrade etc it starts to look like a fair deal. At 8% sales tax is not trivial either.
I have SR15's. That's a different beast and a quantum leap ($7-800) in price, availability is nil right now. Same with LMT maybe just a touch under KAC in price. No coupons or price relief available from KAC/LMT.
No question it's not KAC/LMT level of a build but still very nicely done and so far a solid, smooth shooter. Jury is still out for me on durability but honestly I'm not a heavy enough user to seriously threaten wearing out a G gun.
I am seeing lightly used/unused ones for $1500 or so. Good deals IMO when you consider pretty much no need for ancillary upgrades.
Honestly I think fit/finish is better on Geissele when compared to knights, same goes for parts selection. The ONLY advantage KAC has is the fully ambi lower. Genuinely I can’t think of any other advantage except for being around longer and name recognition…
Honestly I think fit/finish is better on Geissele when compared to knights, same goes for parts selection. The ONLY advantage KAC has is the fully ambi lower. Genuinely I can’t think of any other advantage except for being around longer and name recognition…
Except it’s not full ambi. You can’t lock the bolt from the right. LWRC and LMT did ambi properly.
Why would durability be in question?
Their triggers are proven and everything else on it is pretty much just AR stuff.
Agreed. I also don't know why people bring in this up.
From what I read online Geissele URGI uppers have already been fielded and see normal use in many units.
Why would durability be in question?
Their triggers are proven and everything else on it is pretty much just AR stuff.
Sorry I should have been more explicit. I was at least in part thinking about the handguard/rail not being as robust to impact as the SR15 or monolithic LMT. The other part I was alluding to was the "unproven" nature of Geissele's bolt design which I think will be fine.
Agreed. I also don't know why people bring in this up.
From what I read online Geissele URGI uppers have already been fielded and see normal use in many units.
Handguards and charging handles are the only things in official use with the military. The URGI uppers that I assume you’re referencing use DD barrels.
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Handguards and charging handles are the only things in official use with the military. The URGI uppers that I assume you’re referencing use DD barrels.
Yes, I think you're right about DD barrels. Does Geissele build those uppers or they come as parts kits and then assembled by units' armorers?
TexasAggie2005
08-04-21, 12:22
Yes, I think you're right about DD barrels. Does Geissele build those uppers or they come as parts kits and then assembled by units' armorers?
Parts kit. I think I read on arfcom the kit comes with a DD barrel with the barrel nut, gas block and gas tube installed. Handguard & ACH loose. Armorer uses the existing upper receiver, BCG and muzzle device (assuming these three are still servicable).
Second the best DI gun on the market comment. Regardless of how long other companies have been around, the materials and craftsmanship in which they are building rifles, combined with their previous products and proven performance in austere environments confirm their quality/longevity. About the only thing that would be hard to test/confirm is their reports of bolt lug longevity due to forged design/steel. The only other company offering such an enhancement is Knights, and E3 lug has been around long enough to prove itself durable. Assuming the Geissele design works as advertised (I'm sure they tested and R&D'd extensively) it has the advantage to E3 design due to it being interchangeable with standard bolts/barrels.
The most significant features to me are:
-reduced dwell time by using custom gas length
-properly sized gas port in conjunction with said gas port
-forged bolt with higher grade steel
-centering tab in rails/upper
In addition to the above, the fact you get a surefire warcomp, arguably the best ar trigger available, H2 buffer, and enhanced controls...all at $1500 LESS then it's only competitor with such features makes it a no brainer.
I agree too. If I were buying gun today the G gun would be hard to not buy. I’ve always said that KAC AR 15’s are a solid deal price to value. And I think G guns fit in that category.
PB
Yes, I think you're right about DD barrels. Does Geissele build those uppers or they come as parts kits and then assembled by units' armorers?
Geissele said that all their URGI uppers use their in house black oxide CHF barrels. They stopped using DD barrels earlier this year. They also switched from phosphating their barrels to using black oxide earlier this year on all of their chrome lined barrels. This was said by Geissele on the other site. I don’t know what that means. Is black oxide as good as phosphate?
Black oxide is bluing. Odd choice for an AR barrel.
Geissele said that all their URGI uppers use their in house black oxide CHF barrels. They stopped using DD barrels earlier this year. They also switched from phosphating their barrels to using black oxide earlier this year on all of their chrome lined barrels. This was said by Geissele on the other site. I don’t know what that means. Is black oxide as good as phosphate?
Those are commercial uppers, not what Army SF use.
Those are commercial uppers, not what Army SF use.
Why would Geissele use black oxide on rifles that cost $2000+ dollars?
I can’t figure out why Bill G doesn’t post over here to people who aren’t shills or getting paid to trash talk him.
Outstanding thread. Looking for a new AR and the discussion/points here provided quite a bit of relevant information for me.
Outstanding thread. Looking for a new AR and the discussion/points here provided quite a bit of relevant information for me.
Agreed. Alot of valuable information in this thread. Dudes here really know their stuff.
sidewaysil80
08-10-21, 06:21
Why would Geissele use black oxide on rifles that cost $2000+ dollars?
Just checked website and it says nitride for barrels…
Just checked website and it says nitride for barrels…They have both chrome lined barrels that are black oxide coated on the outside, and nitrided barrels. Both sets of barrels are hammer forged, IIRC.
What would be the reason for black oxide over phosphate? Is it purely down to costs or are there technical benefits?
What would be the reason for black oxide over phosphate? Is it purely down to costs or are there technical benefits?Black oxide is, from what I read, not in any way superior to phosphate. It's hard to imagine that this is anything more than a financial decision.
What would be the reason for black oxide over phosphate? Is it purely down to costs or are there technical benefits?
It’s a free country and if Geissele wants to save money by going from phosphating to black oxide (bluing) then that’s their right I guess.
I have both and it’s hard to tell a difference
If their black oxide is as high quality as the rest of what they do, I’m good with it.
Defaultmp3
08-10-21, 23:42
If their black oxide is as high quality as the rest of what they do, I’m good with it.You mean this kind of quality?
https://i.imgur.com/Bo29dOvh.jpg
And let's not forget their garbage LPVO.
To be clear, every manufacturer has fleas. I don't do the whole KAC sucking thing, because my particular SR-25 CC is just so picky with ammo, while I have a friend who's 2 for 2 on having issues with his SR-15s. LMT had issues with contract guns, with parts breakage on the New Zealand guns. Even heard of more than one issue on Hodge guns from different sources. Etc. But Geissele, I don't really see them as being anything special on their whole rifle. AFAIK, they're not bad, and I would never steer anyone away from one, but they're not on my shortlist of go-to brands for complete rifles, either.
You mean this kind of quality?
https://i.imgur.com/Bo29dOvh.jpg
And let's not forget their garbage LPVO.
To be clear, every manufacturer has fleas. I don't do the whole KAC sucking thing, because my particular SR-25 CC is just so picky with ammo, while I have a friend who's 2 for 2 on having issues with his SR-15s. LMT had issues with contract guns, with parts breakage on the New Zealand guns. Even heard of more than one issue on Hodge guns from different sources. Etc. But Geissele, I don't really see them as being anything special on their whole rifle. AFAIK, they're not bad, and I would never steer anyone away from one, but they're not on my shortlist of go-to brands for complete rifles, either.
Damn...was it a Friday afternoon at the shop when this was made...
I have G-triggers on all my AR’s and will never say a bad word about them.
That being said, I paid big money for one of their HK rails and the fit is horrible. I literally have to pound it off and on with a rubber mallet.
I’ve never purchased or handled a full rifle from them, but my rail experience gives me pause as to their QC.
Just a single data point.
I look forward to some honest 10k and 20k + round reviews.
You mean this kind of quality?
How about this kind of quality?
It is sometimes helpful to actually own the product in question, rather than Googling up an outlier photo because it fits your agenda.
I actually own some and guess what, fit and finish and quality and function are absolutely internet-judgment-zone perfect tip to butt in and out.
Not bad for rifles that were less expensive than building out an overgassed BCM would have been
https://i.imgur.com/t9GlIoV.jpg
Which BCMs are overgassed? I heard their 11.5” and 12.5” are, but heard good things about their 16” midlength since it’s the “standard” of 0.076”.
I like Geissele triggers, but I’m not sold on all their products. Not sure how I feel about going to black oxide instead of phosphate to save cost.
Which BCMs are overgassed? I heard their 11.5” and 12.5” are, but heard good things about their 16” midlength since it’s the “standard” of 0.076”.
I like Geissele triggers, but I’m not sold on all their products. Not sure how I feel about going to black oxide instead of phosphate to save cost.
My 16" midlength seems good, but I don't have a suppressor mount on it.
11.5 is overgassed as hell. Or was until a new gas tube fixed it.
IDK about going to black oxide either, I got mine all on sale or with coupon before that, so I don't have to worry about it, hehe. Then again people where whinging like mad about how bad black oxide is but I have black oxide on 15+ year old guns that I don't do shit for in terms of wiping down the outside of the barrel, with no rust, so (one of them is a Rem 870 that I had by an open window in the car in the rain all day once and even that surface rust wiped right off and never came back). so I guess I wouldn't really worry about it anyway, just spray it with some CLP from a can once in awhile and forget about it?
You mean this kind of quality?
https://i.imgur.com/Bo29dOvh.jpg
And let's not forget their garbage LPVO.
To be clear, every manufacturer has fleas. I don't do the whole KAC sucking thing, because my particular SR-25 CC is just so picky with ammo, while I have a friend who's 2 for 2 on having issues with his SR-15s. LMT had issues with contract guns, with parts breakage on the New Zealand guns. Even heard of more than one issue on Hodge guns from different sources. Etc. But Geissele, I don't really see them as being anything special on their whole rifle. AFAIK, they're not bad, and I would never steer anyone away from one, but they're not on my shortlist of go-to brands for complete rifles, either.
Yeah, I'm gonna have to call bullshit on this picture.
Which BCMs are overgassed? I heard their 11.5” and 12.5” are, but heard good things about their 16” midlength since it’s the “standard” of 0.076”.
I like Geissele triggers, but I’m not sold on all their products. Not sure how I feel about going to black oxide instead of phosphate to save cost.
My 16" midlength seems good, but I don't have a suppressor mount on it.
11.5 is overgassed as hell. Or was until a new gas tube fixed it.
IDK about going to black oxide either, I got mine all on sale or with coupon before that, so I don't have to worry about it, hehe. Then again people where whinging like mad about how bad black oxide is but I have black oxide on 15+ year old guns that I don't do shit for in terms of wiping down the outside of the barrel, with no rust, so (one of them is a Rem 870 that I had by an open window in the car in the rain all day once and even that surface rust wiped right off and never came back). so I guess I wouldn't really worry about it anyway, just spray it with some CLP from a can once in awhile and forget about it?
I have a midlength 16" with the lightweight barrel, and it definitely felt overgassed when I got it. A BRT gas block insert tamed it down to "normal" nicely. Looks like they used the same gas port size as on the .750 gas block barrels.
Defaultmp3
08-11-21, 10:49
Yeah, I'm gonna have to call bullshit on this picture.https://i.imgur.com/HNQNHYV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3H8Zj53.jpg
That might not look "good" but its totally functional. The lower is a forging and both sides are tapered in with draft. This is so the forging can release from the forging die. A rotary cutter machines away metal for the takedown pin cutout and depending on how the draft of both sides matches up one side will clean up more than the other.
Source: https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Geissele-Black-Friday/5-2275273/?page=67#i83597373
Is it an anomaly? Sure. Obviously the vast majority of the Geissele things have come out great, and the rep absolutely right that those aren't critical surfaces and that any rifle built with it would be fine if everything else is in spec. But to to blindly accept anything that Geissele does as acceptable is just foolhardy these days, with all the missteps that they've had over the years (Remember the MK16 debacle? The D&H mags for 275% mark up compared to PSA D&H mags?). Whatever happened to "trust but verify"?
You mean this kind of quality?
https://i.imgur.com/Bo29dOvh.jpg
Is this yours? My three SD’s profile doesn’t look anything like that…
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210811/62e2452045fa2815207bbc999828ab3f.jpg
Are those pics of his blem guns that he does a lottery for the chance to buy? Lol, sUpEr PrEcIsIoN
Is this yours? My three SD’s profile doesn’t look anything like that…
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210811/62e2452045fa2815207bbc999828ab3f.jpg
Guarantee it's not his. There are a few pictures floating around that guys with an ax to grind Google up and re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-post ad infinitude. Usually said posters have never held a Super Duty rifle let alone owned one. This IS still the internet
Defaultmp3
08-11-21, 12:21
Guarantee it's not his. There are a few pictures floating around that guys with an ax to grind Google up and re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-post ad infinitude. Usually said posters have never held a Super Duty rifle let alone owned one. This IS still the internetCorrect, it is not my picture. But I have held Super Duty rifles, and they didn't stand out to me in any way; they're nice, but there are lots of nice AR-15s out there. I would also like to point out that neither of my previous posts has bashed Geissele overall; I'm merely pointing out that they (like KAC, LMT, Hodge, etc.) are not perfect, and also just because they chose a specific action, doesn't mean that it's the best way to do something. Blindly accepting a manufacturer's methods is nothing more than fanboyism. The idea that somehow black oxide is just as good as parkerization just because Geissele does it is ludicrous.
Correct, it is not my picture. But I have held Super Duty rifles, and they didn't stand out to me in any way; they're nice, but there are lots of nice AR-15s out there. I would also like to point out that neither of my previous posts has bashed Geissele overall; I'm merely pointing out that they (like KAC, LMT, Hodge, etc.) are not perfect, and also just because they chose a specific action, doesn't mean that it's the best way to do something. Blindly accepting a manufacturer's methods is nothing more than fanboyism. The idea that somehow black oxide is just as good as parkerization just because Geissele does it is ludicrous.
Did any make any of those arguments in this thread??
Of course no manufacturer is perfect. You going to spam Google'd up pictures of a QC slip from KAC and next and imply anybody who woudl buy KAC is a fanboy because they aren't perfect?
Defaultmp3
08-11-21, 12:57
Did any make any of those arguments in this thread??
If their black oxide is as high quality as the rest of what they do, I’m good with it.So, no one directly said that black oxide is "just as good", but accepting black oxide just because it's Geissele when parkerization is the standard and norm seems pretty fanboy to me. People would likely poo-poo any of the sub-standard brands that do that as yet another sign of inferior quality.
You going to spam Google'd up pictures of a QC slip from KAC and next and imply anybody who woudl buy KAC is a fanboy because they aren't perfect?No need for Googling, I have an SR-25 CC that won't do better than ~8 MOA with M80, and is like 2 to 3 MOA with Gold Dot (both 150 gr and 168 gr). My friend's LPR was about a 4 MOA gun with FGMM, 3 MOA with handloads, due to a burr at the gas port, and shows significant POI shift with a loaded bipod. IIRC, even with the burr removed, his LPR struggles to get sub-MOA outside of a few lighter bullets (<60 gr).
Anyway, you've missed my point once again. It isn't that buying Geissele products makes people fanboys (because that would mean that I would also be a Geissele fanboy), but rather folks accepting every decision made by a Geissele as being kosher makes them fanboys. Besides the issues with the lowers, which I posted simply because they're easy and eye grabbing, are you going to defend the 22 USD D&H mags that have a Geissele floorplate? Are you going to steer people away from the Vortex Razor and Kahles K16i in favor of the Geissele Super Precision Optic? It's not just the rare QC issues that makes Geissele worthy of some degree of suspicion. There are certainly some brands that warrant less scrutiny than others, and for me, Geissele doesn't make it to the "least scrutiny" tier, even if I do consider them to be one of the better brands.
I actually prefer fan-man. [emoji6]
So, no one directly said that black oxide is "just as good"
Right, you're in here flying off the deep end ranting against straw men while googling up extremely overused photos of outliers
Anyway, you've missed my point once again. It isn't that buying Geissele products makes people fanboys (because that would mean that I would also be a Geissele fanboy), but rather folks accepting every decision made by a Geissele as being kosher makes them fanboys.
I get your point, it is to argue against strawmen
are you going to defend the 22 USD D&H mags that have a Geissele floorplate?
They are $12
https://geissele.com/d-h-5-56-30rd-ar15-magazine-black-geissele-floorplate.html
You need to get over your emotion and think logically, dude. You're just going crazy over your own imagination
But so the **** what if they were $22? There's no deception and nothing wrong with charging a higher price for something than competitors. If that offends you, move to a socialist country or keep voting for the dems, those .gov price controls will suit you well
Defaultmp3
08-11-21, 13:17
I actually prefer fan-man. [emoji6]How about fan-king?
Right, you're in here flying off the deep end ranting against straw men while googling up extremely overused photos of outliersI didn't realize I was ranting, I thought I was being pretty even keeled about things.
They are $12
https://geissele.com/d-h-5-56-30rd-ar15-magazine-black-geissele-floorplate.html
You need to get over your emotion and think logically, dude. You're just going crazy over your own imagination
But so the **** what if they were $22? There's no deception and nothing wrong with charging a higher price for something than competitors. If that offends you, move to a socialist country or keep voting for the dems, those .gov price controls will suit you wellYes, they're 12 USD now, after there was blowback at their original 22 USD price.
As for nothing wrong with charging a higher price for something than a competitor, that depends on what is meant by "wrong". I'm not claiming that they're doing anything immoral or unethical, but it's certainly a poor buy, and I would call you an idiot for purchasing such a product simply because it has a Geissele floorplate, and the fact that they're willing to charge such outrageous prices hints that they are probably willing to cut costs without cutting prices (e.g., when the H&K SMRs went from 7075 to 6061 with no change in pricing, though that potentially has to do with government contract stipulations), or to upcharge the consumers when better alternatives can be had elsewhere.
Anyway, I think I've said my piece more than enough in this thread, so take from it what you will. Hopefully someone will find it useful.
Also, I live in the USA, so I'm already living in a socialist country.
Show me a conventional factory DI rifle that is better gassed for dedicated suppressor use and I may very well sell a couple of the G guns.
Show me a conventional factory DI rifle that is better gassed for dedicated suppressor use and I may very well sell a couple of the G guns.PSA or go home.
Soli Deo Gloria
Defaultmp3
08-11-21, 13:57
Show me a conventional factory DI rifle that is better gassed for dedicated suppressor use and I may very well sell a couple of the G guns.Depends on the barrel length and what you mean by "factory", but Triarc and Sionics both offer SBR/pistol builds with dedicated reduced gas port sizes. Current Daniel Defense and Centurion Arms gas ports are also quite conservative, and I believe on par with Geissele gas ports; Hodge's gas ports have varied over the years, but I'm sure Jim would be happy to discuss what's available these days. If you want, feel free to check out my gas port spreadsheet I've been compiling: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tXunBDX5Gaz87BqxwNxDUlWNK9nEv-cZEQoLq2JXXrk/htmlview
That being said, gas ports are only one part of the issue; I remember the guy behind MicroMOA showing that with different barrels of the same length, he had to adjust the AGB to different sizes to get the same performance, simply due to slight variations in bore size, IIRC.
I will say that I don't see the appeal of factory guns for AR-15s, particularly for more niche applications like dedicated suppressed use, assuming resale is not an issue. Parts and knowledge are ubiquitous enough that I don't think there's much of an advantage to a factory warranty. That also means that I would simply modify the current guns you have already, if you were chasing better gassing, whether it be through an AGB, BRT gas tube, a gas block insert, or adjustable carrier.
Show me a conventional factory DI rifle that is better gassed for dedicated suppressor use and I may very well sell a couple of the G guns.
Sionics with RGP barrel, or even the extreme reduced version if it’ll always have a can attached.
Nice spreadsheet!
Fantastic information Sir.
I run 10.3’s and 16’s. I’ll do more research into Sionics and Triarc.
.052 on a 11.5? Hmmm… I like the sound of that.
I have an SR-25 CC that won't do better than ~8 MOA with M80, and is like 2 to 3 MOA with Gold Dot (both 150 gr and 168 gr). My friend's LPR was about a 4 MOA gun with FGMM, 3 MOA with handloads, due to a burr at the gas port, and shows significant POI shift with a loaded bipod.
Off topic, If my guns were shooting like that, I would let KAC look at them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Defaultmp3
08-12-21, 10:17
Off topic, If my guns were shooting like that, I would let KAC look at them.My SR-25 is just super picky with ammo. I can get ~1 MOA with FGMM (168 gr and 175 gr) and have slapped steel at >1100 yards with an M118LR clone before, just haven't found a good hunting/duty round that will group well, whether it be factory or reloads. Closest I've gotten is Federal Terminal Ascent 175 gr at about 1.5 MOA, most other stuff is 2 MOA and over. I was able to find some Prvi Partizan Match stuff to use for plinking when I need to do more than just hose IPSCs at 10 yards that'll maintain <1.5 MOA and wasn't terribly expensive pre-pandemic.
My friend's LPR did go back to KAC, hence the diagnosis about the gas port burr. With the burr removed, it's also still picky with ammo; it prefers lighter bullets, and he's unable to get it sub-MOA with heavier bullets (1.1 MOA with his favorite 77 gr TMK handloads that he can typically get 0.75 MOA in his other precision gas guns).
Sionics with RGP barrel, or even the extreme reduced version if it’ll always have a can attached.
Has anyone experienced the Geissele 11.5 SD gas pressure (suppressed & unsupressed)? Overgassed, undergassed, just right?
Has anyone experienced the Geissele 11.5 SD gas pressure (suppressed & unsupressed)? Overgassed, undergassed, just right?
Outstanding with a 556 RC2, makes the stock 11.5 BCM seem like a piece of trash in comparison
TexasAggie2005
08-13-21, 07:53
Has anyone experienced the Geissele 11.5 SD gas pressure (suppressed & unsupressed)? Overgassed, undergassed, just right?
I have an 11.5" Duty (not Super) with an G42 spring & H2 buffer. No experience suppressed yet, but with a flash hider, I'd say it's about the same as my Colt 14.5" SOCOM barrel with the same spring & buffer. I don't find it disagreeable at all.
Has anyone experienced the Geissele 11.5 SD gas pressure (suppressed & unsupressed)? Overgassed, undergassed, just right?
I’m not sure if they’ve changed anything, but a buddy got one pretty early on, and it ran very nicely. It was not objectionable with the Chimera, but he did end up choking it down with a BRT EZ Tune, since its a dedicated host. Stock, its probably one of the best gassed 11.5s around, in that one sample.
All the things Geissele.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210813/4739502528b425a45a9ae50bbb627031.jpg
I look forward to some honest 10k and 20k + round reviews.
That’s an excellent question. Me too, especially the barrel life. I wonder how many rounds they will last.
All the things Geissele.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210813/4739502528b425a45a9ae50bbb627031.jpg
Nice!
At this point I'm wondering if manufacturers aren't using nitrided barrels due to availability. Seems like I can find them easier than chrome lines alternatives.
At this point I'm wondering if manufacturers aren't using nitrided barrels due to availability. Seems like I can find them easier than chrome lines alternatives.
G says they roll their own.
I don’t care either way, 1.5” groups at 200, I’m good with it.
G says they roll their own.
I don’t care either way, 1.5” groups at 200, I’m good with it.
Are your Geissele’s the nitrided or chrome lined ones? Just curious if they perform differently.
G says they roll their own.
I don’t care either way, 1.5” groups at 200, I’m good with it.
Are your Geissele’s the nitrided or chrome lined ones? Just curious if they perform differently.
Are your Geissele’s the nitrided or chrome lined ones? Just curious if they perform differently.
All 4 are chrome. The 16” with the razor is the one that I’ve confirmed to be 0.75 moa. I believe the exterior on that one is phosphate. I’ll shoot the other 16 next week. It now has a 1-8 trijicon Accupower. It’s also chrome but black oxide. I don’t believe the finish on the exterior of the barrel will make a difference though.
MadAngler1
08-20-21, 19:38
Love my Geissele 11.5” pistol converted to a SBR. 100% reliable with Surefire suppressor.
Something occurred to me, why not just do the “nanocoating” on the exterior of the barrel. I wish we had a rep on board like the other forum does.
Anybody want to ask over there? I would join but my skin is nowhere near thick enough. [emoji2371]
Something occurred to me, why not just do the “nanocoating” on the exterior of the barrel. I wish we had a rep on board like the other forum does.
Anybody want to ask over there? I would join but my skin is nowhere near thick enough. [emoji2371]
I think we would do better to ask Bill to come over there than we would watering down info back and forth between boards. Obviously people could ask question over there and cut and paste replies, but I would still rather see Bill or one of his people over here.
Something occurred to me, why not just do the “nanocoating” on the exterior of the barrel. I wish we had a rep on board like the other forum does.
Anybody want to ask over there? I would join but my skin is nowhere near thick enough. [emoji2371]
That’s a really great question. I was thinking the exact same thing myself.
That’s a really great question. I was thinking the exact same thing myself.Bet it has to do with $...
Bet it has to do with $...
I don’t see how. They’re coating the muzzle device, which doesn’t need it. I’d say skip that and do the barrel.
I don’t see how. They’re coating the muzzle device, which doesn’t need it. I’d say skip that and do the barrel.Agreed that the muzzle device doesn't need it, though I suspect the thinking behind doing it may be to reduce visible wear and keep it looking new for longer. But equating doing the muzzle device and the barrel seems like quite a stretch. One of these things is not like the other...
No, not equating. I don’t know if they’re nitriding in house, but I would assume nano is. Seems like an easy fix to save controversy. It doesn’t really bother me, however, I’ll admit that I did spray extra oil on it after the soak to remove the CTN. Just to be sure. Lol.
Just a thought.
No, not equating. I don’t know if they’re nitriding in house, but I would assume nano is. Seems like an easy fix to save controversy. It doesn’t really bother me, however, I’ll admit that I did spray extra oil on it after the soak to remove the CTN. Just to be sure. Lol.
Just a thought.
Hey, I would very much welcome them doing that to the non-nitrided barrels, for sure. Though really, I'd just as happy of they parkarized them instead of just bluing.
Can’t go in detail but there’s reportedly an organization that’s having significant issues with more than 10 G SD rifles and G doesnt seem to be helping too much. This is from one source but seemed genuine as it was really an aside to a different conversation so take it FWIW.
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^ Would love more info.
They’re getting out there as fast as they can make them.
Only time will tell.
call_me_ski
08-23-21, 00:13
Not uncommon for issues to pop up when institutional users start running things.
While not usually mentioned in tactical circles JP enjoys a fantastic reputation among people that are known to shoot their rifles a lot. I know of one tactical team that had their rifles go back multiple times to JP. Took them a year before they had them working adequately. Most on the team miss the less exotic rifles they replaced. Fancy isn’t always better.
Can’t go in detail but there’s reportedly an organization that’s having significant issues with more than 10 G SD rifles and G doesnt seem to be helping too much. This is from one source but seemed genuine as it was really an aside to a different conversation so take it FWIW.
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Did the person say what kind of problems? Malfunctions, rust, wear, parts breakage etc.? Just curious.
Can’t go in detail but there’s reportedly an organization that’s having significant issues with more than 10 G SD rifles and G doesnt seem to be helping too much. This is from one source but seemed genuine as it was really an aside to a different conversation so take it FWIW.
Well if it's a unit you are involved with, I'm not surprised. Nearly everything you've owned firearm-wise has had issues. ;)
Until we get specifics and documented reports, it’s just hearsay IMO.
Did the person say what kind of problems? Malfunctions, rust, wear, parts breakage etc.? Just curious.
Accuracy between 4-8 MOA and random parts breakage got specific mentions. But it sounded like there was more, they went to an entirely different barrel length to see if that would resolve the issue.
Well if it's a unit you are involved with, I'm not surprised. Nearly everything you've owned firearm-wise has had issues. ;)
Ha, it is not. I know the guy through my organization but he doesn’t belong to it.
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That being said, I paid big money for one of their HK rails and the fit is horrible. I literally have to pound it off and on with a rubber mallet.
I’ve never purchased or handled a full rifle from them, but my rail experience gives me pause as to their QC.That actually sounds like ideal fitment for use. I would lube the barrel nut and hit the end of the rail with light heat (holding the rail with a glove) before installing. To remove letting some penetrating oil overnight couldn't hurt? and again light heat on the end of the rail, the aluminum will expand more than the steel barrel nut.
I found the opposite situation with the URGI MK16 handguards. They slide on and off very easily and subsequently will move until the last few turns of the cross bolts. They are in spec and the anti-rotation screws then also add another layer of security, but I check those bolts all the time.
I don’t see how. They’re coating the muzzle device, which doesn’t need it. I’d say skip that and do the barrel.Muzzle devices (especially when in blast chambers of suppressors) see significant gases, heat and fouling. The corrosion resistance and reduced carbon build up from the CrN coating may provide a benefit in this respect. Similarly, the BCG is also subjected to the same elements, and as a mechanical component, benefits from the added lubricity. What are you trying to achieve by coating the exterior of the barrel? I personally prefer the carbon that escapes the gas block to build up and help form a seal on the barrel (not that it is needed for function).
Achieve by nanocoating the exterior of the barrel?
To skip the black oxide, but as has mentioned before, we’ll see how they hold up. Mines doing just as well as the phosphate ones so far. But it hasn’t seen much.
sidewaysil80
08-29-21, 07:59
Accuracy between 4-8 MOA and random parts breakage got specific mentions. But it sounded like there was more, they went to an entirely different barrel length to see if that would resolve the issue.
Sample size of one and all that, but that experience is in stark contrast to my own. Sub-half moa (50yds) with my 10.3 SD and moa @100 w/ my 16” SD competition rifle. It’s got approximately 4k rounds through it with no issues. I understand that’s not enough to make any longterm observations, but so far incredibly happy with performance and accuracy.
Accuracy between 4-8 MOA and random parts breakage got specific mentions. But it sounded like there was more, they went to an entirely different barrel length to see if that would resolve the issue.
Sample size of one and all that, but that experience is in stark contrast to my own. Sub-half moa (50yds) with my 10.3 SD and moa @100 w/ my 16” SD competition rifle. It’s got approximately 4k rounds through it with no issues. I understand that’s not enough to make any longterm observations, but so far incredibly happy with performance and accuracy.
I wonder if you guys could tell me when these rifles were built/bought. It seems like there was definitely a period starting with the Black Friday sale of last year where Geissele's QC seemed to suffer, and outside of rifles from that period everyone seems to love them.
sidewaysil80
08-29-21, 08:49
I wonder if you guys could tell me when these rifles were built/bought. It seems like there was definitely a period starting with the Black Friday sale of last year where Geissele's QC seemed to suffer, and outside of rifles from that period everyone seems to love them.
Super Duty 10.3” pistol: 2019
Super Duty 16”: 2021
Super Duty 16” (competition gun, I swapped muzzle device, trigger, added vltor a5): 2020
Super Duty 10.3” pistol: 2019
Super Duty 16”: 2021
Super Duty 16” (competition gun, I swapped muzzle device, trigger, added vltor a5): 2020
LOL, well that pretty much covers the entire time they've been making them. So much for my theory.
Those are all the details I have and I don't expect to get more. Obviously its worth what you paid for it and I do acknowledge its in stark contrast to just about all reports out there, just figured I'd mention it as a rumor since I don't know why this would be a lie, given the context.
sidewaysil80
08-29-21, 10:11
LOL, well that pretty much covers the entire time they've been making them. So much for my theory.
Fwiw, the comp gun gets ran the most and has the highest round count. The 10.3” gets 2 or 3 outings a month and occasionally I’ll shoot a match with it. The 16” basically sits in the safe as it’s been on the back burner. Eventually I’ll throw something on it and shoot a dmr match when time permits. But admittedly the other two shoot a lot more.
I will say system on 10.3” pleasantly surprised me. With suppressor it was consistent 3-4 o’clock, without suppressor it was consistently 2-3 o’clock. It’s in factory form sans surefire muzzle brake as opposed to oem flash hider. However a MK18 build with Vltor A5H2 that I have shoots ever so slightly softer. But the 10.3 SD isn’t that far off.
Comp gun isn’t fair to base opinions off of due to new buffer system. But it’s very soft, i think A5H2 combined with their extended length gas system is just about the flattest AR I’ve encountered. The oem super duty I have isn’t that far behind and def flatter/softer impulse then other rifles I’ve shot, to include Knights.
Accuracy between 4-8 MOA and random parts breakage got specific mentions. But it sounded like there was more, they went to an entirely different barrel length to see if that would resolve the issue.
Ha, it is not. I know the guy through my organization but he doesn’t belong to it.
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Do you know what length they transferred to? Did the new length versions have issues as well? Just curious. Thanks.
Do you know what length they transferred to? Did the new length versions have issues as well? Just curious. Thanks.
Reportedly went from 10.5s to either 14.5s or 16s, can’t remember which. No improvement, or at least not a significant one.
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Not uncommon for issues to pop up when institutional users start running things…/
This is true and weird. It seems like I put just about anything on an AR and it works fine.
Loan that AR out for a class, hunt, whatever, and all of a sudden it shits the bed.
call_me_ski
08-31-21, 18:34
This is true and weird. It seems like I put just about anything on an AR and it works fine.
Loan that AR out for a class, hunt, whatever, and all of a sudden it shits the bed.
It is just one of those things you can’t explain. Kinda like how the laws of physics break down during a ruck march. The front will be “leisurely” walking at 2.5 miles per hour while the rear is constantly running at 5 mph and somehow never catches up to the front.
sidewaysil80
08-31-21, 20:04
Reportedly went from 10.5s to either 14.5s or 16s, can’t remember which. No improvement, or at least not a significant one.
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I trust you just from other posts here and on other forums, but I’m questioning the source or their motives. Consistent sub-moa reports from various lengths, then this org gets 4-8 moa…replaces with new rifles and longer barrels…still 4-8moa?! I just don’t see how thats possible while everyone else still reports better accuracy.
I trust you just from other posts here and on other forums, but I’m questioning the source or their motives. Consistent sub-moa reports from various lengths, then this org gets 4-8 moa…replaces with new rifles and longer barrels…still 4-8moa?! I just don’t see how thats possible while everyone else still reports better accuracy.I was thinking the same thing. There's probably a lot more to the story than we're aware though. The devil is in the details, as they say.
Just got charged on my card and received notification that my 14.5 inch Super Duty is being shipped. I already have a URG-I that I love. It's on a Geissele lower.
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I trust you just from other posts here and on other forums, but I’m questioning the source or their motives. Consistent sub-moa reports from various lengths, then this org gets 4-8 moa…replaces with new rifles and longer barrels…still 4-8moa?! I just don’t see how thats possible while everyone else still reports better accuracy.
So it wasn’t stated that way. We were speaking very generally on most of the topics for reasons. I honestly don’t know if the accuracy issue was with the shorties or the longer guns but it wasn’t implied that it was both - just that both platforms had serious issues.
It’s also entirely possible that this is greatly exaggerated. I don’t think so for a few reasons, but I have zero first hand knowledge and didn’t even see any type of proof. Again, there are reasons that I’m willing to trust at face value but I also have no need to buy more ARs and I’m not already invested in them. The final comment was that if someone owns one and it’s good (because I brought up lots of positive reviews), then great - they probably were at some point and many may still be. But, it wouldn’t be a recommendation going forward from this perspective. Again, take it FWIW.
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Just got charged on my card and received notification that my 14.5 inch Super Duty is being shipped. I already have a URG-I that I love. It's on a Geissele lower.
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How long was the wait?
How long was the wait?Ordered on June 18. Supposed to be delivered next Tuesday.
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Actually, picked up my Geissele today. Quick shipping. What I've looked at, it seems to be really nice. Now I have to decide if I want to keep it. I've been trying to sell a Vortex Viper 2x-10x scope and have had no luck. Maybe I'll do a package deal.
I have a couple of Colt AR's and my Geissele URG-I, so I don't know if I want to hold onto this. Last year I sold 8 AR's and a bunch of other guns just downsizing.
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Actually, picked up my Geissele today. Quick shipping. What I've looked at, it seems to be really nice. Now I have to decide if I want to keep it. I've been trying to sell a Vortex Viper 2x-10x scope and have had no luck. Maybe I'll do a package deal.
I have a couple of Colt AR's and my Geissele URG-I, so I don't know if I want to hold onto this. Last year I sold 8 AR's and a bunch of other guns just downsizing.
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Is your URGI the one with the DD barrel or the Geissele barrel?
URGI uppers have only ever had DD, G Super Duty uppers have the MK16 rail with G barrel.
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URGI uppers have only ever had DD, G Super Duty uppers have the MK16 rail with G barrel.
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Geissele said on the other website they use their in house CHF CL barrels on their URGI’s. I don’t how long it’s been since the switch but other members said it’s been a while (I don’t know exactly how long). That’s why I was asking which version he had since he mentioned how great his URGI performed & how much he liked it.
My 10.3 G runs just as well as the DD on my 10.3 URGI.
I don’t think it matters since the specs are so similar.
Is your URGI the one with the DD barrel or the Geissele barrel?DD barrel. I received it early 2020.
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Geissele said on the other website they use their in house CHF CL barrels on their URGI’s. I don’t how long it’s been since the switch but other members said it’s been a while (I don’t know exactly how long). That’s why I was asking which version he had since he mentioned how great his URGI performed & how much he liked it.
Weird, you’re right. I don’t know when they changed that. The near clone also says it uses the REBCG which it didn’t used to.
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Anyone have the weight of an 11.5 super duty upper, either with or w/out BCG and ACH?
Regardless of what I was told, I’m still intrigued by them.
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This is true and weird. It seems like I put just about anything on an AR and it works fine.
Loan that AR out for a class, hunt, whatever, and all of a sudden it shits the bed.
Because they are limp wristing a handgun or feeding the rifle steel cased garbage or shit one can't even begin to understand once it hits the masses. I'm always surprised by all the issues with guns as I have had very few with either rifle or pistol. Not that it has not happened but I have so many guns with zero issues. Maybe luck, maybe buying quality proven stuff.???
PB
^
Depends on the configuration, some are much more sensitive than others. As far as the operating envelope.
Makes me think of my 9mm AR journey several years ago, given these were factory built by highly regarded companies. They’d work fantastic at my range, but then I’d go and travel two hours for a match, and as soon as they timer went off, they’d crap the bed.
Ended up going MP5 and never looked back.
TexasAggie2005
09-04-21, 09:19
Anyone have the weight of an 11.5 super duty upper, either with or w/out BCG and ACH?
Regardless of what I was told, I’m still intrigued by them.
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They're not lightweight for sure. I have a 11.5 "Duty Upper" (11.5" nitride SOCOM profile, Surefire 3P Eliminator flash hider, 10.5" Mk16, standard M4 upper, regular FA BCG & ACH). I can get a weight later today if you want. But it won't be a stripped "Super" upper.
TexasAggie2005
09-04-21, 09:28
They're not lightweight for sure. I have a 11.5 "Duty Upper" (11.5" nitride SOCOM profile, Surefire 3P Eliminator flash hider, 10.5" Mk16, standard M4 upper, regular FA BCG & ACH). I can get a weight later today if you want. But it won't be a stripped "Super" upper.
~66.2oz
Because they are limp wristing a handgun or feeding the rifle steel cased garbage or shit one can't even begin to understand once it hits the masses. I'm always surprised by all the issues with guns as I have had very few with either rifle or pistol. Not that it has not happened but I have so many guns with zero issues. Maybe luck, maybe buying quality proven stuff.???
PB
Your post hits home with me... must be lucky too. I am sort of still new to guns...didn't really get into shooting until 2010. However in all the guns I have had and shot I have had very little issues. A new Sig MPX 1st few hundred rounds was sticky with feeding. My other rifles and pistols all worked just fine with most never having a feed issue. I use new brass ammo except in my AK's and I try to use proper techniques holding my guns. Plus I keep them pretty clean but even on a outside range day of 500-800 rounds I never have issues.
Your post hits home with me... must be lucky too. I am sort of still new to guns...didn't really get into shooting until 2010. However in all the guns I have had and shot I have had very little issues. A new Sig MPS 1st few hundred rounds was sticky with feeding. My other rifles and pistols all worked just fine with most never having a feed issue. I use new brass ammo except in my AK's and I try to use proper techniques holding my guns. Plus I keep them pretty clean but even on a outside range day of 500-800 rounds I never have issues.
You make very valid points.
IKnowNotEverything
10-09-21, 23:02
Going to take a Geissele Duty Rifle to the SOLGW shoot. I put a mag through it to confirm function when i picked it up, but nothing since. I'll sight in the optic beforehand, and let 'er rip. Will report back.
Going to take a Geissele Duty Rifle to the SOLGW shoot. I put a mag through it to confirm function when i picked it up, but nothing since. I'll sight in the optic beforehand, and let 'er rip. Will report back.
How did it shoot when you did shoot it?
IKnowNotEverything
10-18-21, 20:44
Sighted in briefly today actually w/ some IMI 55gr. Rifle cycles extremely smoothly, trigger is excellent, and she seems accurate enough. I started high and right, dialed down and it tracked perfectly along with my adjustments. We were losing the light and others needed to sight in so I'll shoot for groups hopefully this weekend. I've set it up w/ a Burris XTR II 1-5 in a Seekins MXM mount and plan to use it in stock configuration.
Good initial experience. I am not sold on the Super 42 system being better than the Vltor A5 I run in my other rifles, but so far so good.
I recently purchased a Geissele 10.3” Super Duty that I have SBR’d. It was purchased to be a modern Mk18’ish type rifle. The fit/finish on my particular rifle is stellar. I’ve gone through it tip to butt multiple times and I can’t find a single thing to complain about. It came with an H3 buffer and is gassed perfectly. Ejection has been at 4:00 exactly unsuppressed. The gun really is a pleasure to shoot. Between the trigger and soft shooting nature, follow up shots are a breeze. This gun will eventually wear a suppressor once it’s out of jail. Accuracy so far exceeds what I’m capable of with a RDS. My groups at 100 yds are consistently 1-1.5 MOA. I have fired exactly 200 rds of M193 so far, which isn’t much, but I have had no issues as of yet.
Beard_of_War
10-20-21, 08:08
Geissele rifles and uppers are definitely top tier. Mine is my go to rifle. When HK 416 replacements parts became almost impossible to get due to stupid import laws, certain groups that could have been issued whatever they wanted chose Geissele.
To the OP, yeah, they are pricey, and opinions vary, but I think they are what might be considered top tier these days.
On gov't use, well, if, let's say JSOC ordered a bunch of these parts and you want to infer from that, they're GTG, fair enough. But when dealing with gov't contract purchases, I was also issued mag pouches by "Arkansas Industries for the Blind". Between those two datum points the truth surely lies.
Sorta depends on what you're doing. If you're just building a clone-like rifle, nothing wrong with that, but URGI stuff is the new hotness. If you have a different goal in mind, there are other choices.
I recently purchased a Geissele 10.3” Super Duty that I have SBR’d. It was purchased to be a modern Mk18’ish type rifle. The fit/finish on my particular rifle is stellar. I’ve gone through it tip to butt multiple times and I can’t find a single thing to complain about. It came with an H3 buffer and is gassed perfectly. Ejection has been at 4:00 exactly unsuppressed. The gun really is a pleasure to shoot. Between the trigger and soft shooting nature, follow up shots are a breeze. This gun will eventually wear a suppressor once it’s out of jail. Accuracy so far exceeds what I’m capable of with a RDS. My groups at 100 yds are consistently 1-1.5 MOA. I have fired exactly 200 rds of M193 so far, which isn’t much, but I have had no issues as of yet.
You are shooting 1” groups, and up to 1.5” groups with M193 at 100 yards? That is impressive! Is this standing, kneeling or what sort of shooting position are you using?
indianalex01
10-21-21, 17:15
You are shooting 1” groups, and up to 1.5” groups with M193 at 100 yards? That is impressive! Is this standing, kneeling or what sort of shooting position are you using?
Surely you do not believe that BS. 193 1 inch? Lol. It can happen but not consistently. An AR that can shoot 1 inch consistently with match ammo is a great thing but not the norm. 193 doing it??? Get out of here
A friend of mine who was in the "circles" to know (he's retired now but still has interaction as he's a contractor) told me that CAG had settled on a G weapon for the HK416 replacement. DEVGRU has gone Noveske, CAG has gone G. Didn't specify if it is the URG model or not, but did say it had a Surefire OBC in it. Interesting nonetheless.....
Geissele rifles and uppers are definitely top tier. Mine is my go to rifle. When HK 416 replacements parts became almost impossible to get due to stupid import laws, certain groups that could have been issued whatever they wanted chose Geissele.
Did a search for the news of which you speak but so far my Google-fu is garbage.
DEVGRU and CAG are ditching the HK 416? I confess to living under a large rock but holy crap - when did that happen?
call_me_ski
10-22-21, 20:38
Seems like sometime last year. Lots of photos around of the Navy guys with their new noveskes. Haven’t seen any photos of a Geissele rifle out there yet.
Seems like sometime last year. Lots of photos around of the Navy guys with their new noveskes. Haven’t seen any photos of a Geissele rifle out there yet.
Yeah for DEVGRU it probably was longer ago than CAG's selection (was told final choice was made a few months ago, now it proceeds from there). Might be a tad bit longer before you see a pic of one in the wild.
The Surefire OBC choice was interesting, as G has their own super-duper BCG. Maybe for more controllability in FA fire? I dunno.
BoringGuy45
10-23-21, 13:15
HK can't get out of their own way. Honestly, I was sure at one point that eventually the 416 would become the dominant version of the AR after the Marines picked up the M27. But it seems like they're suddenly fading in popularity and, from what others have said, it's largely because HK is so hard to deal with.
HK can't get out of their own way. Honestly, I was sure at one point that eventually the 416 would become the dominant version of the AR after the Marines picked up the M27. But it seems like they're suddenly fading in popularity and, from what others have said, it's largely because HK is so hard to deal with.
I would suspect that weight is an issue also. As loadouts (especially body armor) for troops have increased the weight they haul around, adding in a general-issue weapon that is heavier than the previous one would seem like a step backwards. The M27 isn't light by any means; having it as a general-issue weapon with a 16" barrel and longer [monster] quad rail would seem to be counter-intuitive for a 21st century Infantryman. For the HSLD types? Yeah, I can see it. But for the average grunt unit?
BoringGuy45
10-23-21, 20:15
I would suspect that weight is an issue also. As loadouts (especially body armor) for troops have increased the weight they haul around, adding in a general-issue weapon that is heavier than the previous one would seem like a step backwards. The M27 isn't light by any means; having it as a general-issue weapon with a 16" barrel and longer [monster] quad rail would seem to be counter-intuitive for a 21st century Infantryman. For the HSLD types? Yeah, I can see it. But for the average grunt unit?
The M27, of course, was a bit of an end around to get a new standard infantry rifle. I figured the Marines would (and they still might) start modifying the M27 to lighten it, shorten it and, in the end, pretty much turn it into the same HK416 JSOC was using.
At this point though, I'm wondering how long the M27 will be the standard issue rifle for the Marines. I wonder if they'll go to something closer to the Geissele rifle, that is, a 14.5 mid-length DI gun, or something like that.
Does anyone here know what finish Geissele uses on the URG-I upper receiver groups? Is it phosphate or the oxide finish?
WillieThom
10-24-21, 22:48
Does anyone here know what finish Geissele uses on the URG-I upper receiver groups? Is it phosphate or the oxide finish?
I was wondering the same with regard to the (alleged) new CAG guns… obviously no one but those involved would know for sure, but with all of the complaints of black oxide not holding up, I wonder if they’ve tested black oxide and it stood up to their testing protocols and they’ll go with that or if there are some sort of JSOC spec’d upper receiver groups that have the more traditional phosphate?
Does anyone here know what finish Geissele uses on the URG-I upper receiver groups? Is it phosphate or the oxide finish?
If you mean what finish the barrel is, Geissele is now using black oxide (chrome lined). Geissele said they switched from using phosphate to black oxide earlier this year sometime. They said it’s done well in their testing, but to keep the exterior oiled like normal. This is their post verbatim:
“Its a very durable black oxide finish that works very well on the exterior of the barrels. You'll just need to oil like normal and the barrel will be good to go. We've seen great results with this coating and haven't had any issues with the finish on our in house cold hammer forged chrome lined extremely accurate barrels.
-GACS”
I personally haven’t heard of any problems with the new black oxide, but I’m far from an expert.
Does anyone here know what finish Geissele uses on the URG-I upper receiver groups? Is it phosphate or the oxide finish?
URGI barrels are phosphated unless they recently changed. Kind of doubt it though, with the whole clone aspect. The receivers are standard type III hard anodized and the rail is whatever they've used for DDC forever.
I've seen guys mention this in a couple of threads and just wanted to add, a lot of these weapons get coated with camo paint of one kind or another. So whatever the base coating is, it will have a high probability of being coated with something else. So I don't see this as being any big deal, in comparison to all the anodized parts, when the whole she-bang will (probably) be camo-coated anyways.
I camo paint all my rifles, and a few of my friends as well. So the base finish isn't that much of a concern. While I prefer a tanodized or phosphate base, just about anything will do. Point is the new coating will be taking care of business, as far as corrosion is concerned. I can only imagine that a lot of the unit armorers will be thinking the same. So unless the spec calls out for a phosphate finish, I don't see this as any deal-breaker. To me it's all primers.
According to Bill Geissele, the reason for the switch to black oxide from phosphate is that their particular steel didn't take the phosphate coating very well, and they weren't happy with the results. He likened it to trying to phosphate a stainless barrel, which causes all kinds of issues with the coating.
According to Bill Geissele, the reason for the switch to black oxide from phosphate is that their particular steel didn't take the phosphate coating very well, and they weren't happy with the results. He likened it to trying to phosphate a stainless barrel, which causes all kinds of issues with the coating.
Did they change their steel?
My two G phosphate barrels coated beautifully.
Did they change their steel?
My two G phosphate barrels coated beautifully.
I don't remember specifically if they changes it, but I do remember him saying something about "Super Mil-spec Steel" or some similar silliness. From what he wrote I got the impression that they were having to reject a bunch of phosphated barrels for the finish because the finish wasn't taking to the steel and that's what prompted the change. He did say something about the steel being more naturally corrosion resistant than standard 4150.
Personally, I don't see it. All chrome lined barrels get shot out at about the same rate, and you have to replace the bolt then anyways. And it just so happens that under normal firing schedules, a milspec bolt is pretty much always going to outlast the barrel. So if you're no matter what going to have to replace the bolt and barrel both at 10-20 thousand rounds, it's better to spend 500 instead of two or three times that.
If you're completely in love with all the fancy doodads, then maybe it's worth it. You get a rail and a nice trigger. But that's only about 600 dollars worth of stuff, so you could just buy a milspec AR and slap those on yourself for a grand total of 1600.
If I were going to spend that much on an enhanced AR, I think the clear winners are KAC and LMT. They address fundamental issues with the platform, and it really is a better mousetrap. Still totally not worth it in my opinion, but if I were looking for that next level AR those would be it.
Duly noted. And I agree to a certain extent. Right now I am torn between ordering another SF OBC or getting a LMT eBCG. So I agree on the value of LMT parts into the build. KAC is a whole 'nother level. But you gotta give the devil his due. Geiselle is the new hotness. If they do get the contract for CAG guns to replace the -416 it will get even worse. So maybe for us that still build this stuff, and don't have to have the latest and greatest, we will use other parts. But I suspect, as you argued about Colt getting the contracts and the numbers to get in-depth feedback from, it will be much the same for Geiselle. If CAG rolls with their piece, then the herd will follow, and Geiselle will get all that additional T&E to improve the product. Of course it's gonna cost more, but as long as the fanboys buy it, the prices will remain high.
But yeah I kinda like what you're thinking. We can quietly buy up late-model Colt stuff while Geiselle struts around the barnyard.
Duly noted. And I agree to a certain extent. Right now I am torn between ordering another SF OBC or getting a LMT eBCG. So I agree on the value of LMT parts into the build. KAC is a whole 'nother level. But you gotta give the devil his due. Geiselle is the new hotness. If they do get the contract for CAG guns to replace the -416 it will get even worse. So maybe for us that still build this stuff, and don't have to have the latest and greatest, we will use other parts. But I suspect, as you argued about Colt getting the contracts and the numbers to get in-depth feedback from, it will be much the same for Geiselle. If CAG rolls with their piece, then the herd will follow, and Geiselle will get all that additional T&E to improve the product. Of course it's gonna cost more, but as long as the fanboys buy it, the prices will remain high.
But yeah I kinda like what you're thinking. We can quietly buy up late-model Colt stuff while Geiselle struts around the barnyard.
There's always that hypebeast crowd who has to have the latest and greatest. If some version of the Geissele ends up being fielded in large numbers then there's a great argument to be made in terms of buying that same model, if it's the same, and if there's transparency saying yes this is the same upper that gets shipped to them, pulled off the same racks.
I'm extremely skeptical, though. Various guns have been fielded by special units over the last 20 years or so and everybody was like, welp this is it, this is the gun that's going to replace the M4. And in reality what happened is this or that unit bought some to try out, maybe used them a little, then went straight back to the M4s and Mk18s. I imagine this will be much the same. They're going to find out it doesn't do anything that the M4 can't do just as well, at a fraction of the cost.
I've seen guys mention this in a couple of threads and just wanted to add, a lot of these weapons get coated with camo paint of one kind or another. So whatever the base coating is, it will have a high probability of being coated with something else. So I don't see this as being any big deal, in comparison to all the anodized parts, when the whole she-bang will (probably) be camo-coated anyways.
I camo paint all my rifles, and a few of my friends as well. So the base finish isn't that much of a concern. While I prefer a tanodized or phosphate base, just about anything will do. Point is the new coating will be taking care of business, as far as corrosion is concerned. I can only imagine that a lot of the unit armorers will be thinking the same. So unless the spec calls out for a phosphate finish, I don't see this as any deal-breaker. To me it's all primers.
I really don't see that many painted guns FYI, on or off duty.
indianalex01
10-25-21, 21:01
The M27, of course, was a bit of an end around to get a new standard infantry rifle. I figured the Marines would (and they still might) start modifying the M27 to lighten it, shorten it and, in the end, pretty much turn it into the same HK416 JSOC was using.
At this point though, I'm wondering how long the M27 will be the standard issue rifle for the Marines. I wonder if they'll go to something closer to the Geissele rifle, that is, a 14.5 mid-length DI gun, or something like that.
I don’t see them trying to lighten them up because they have a lot on the rail. PEQ, grip, bipod many times and lights at times. Barrel is 16 inch and a socom type barrel profile. MARSOC don’t want it due to weight mainly. The corps is also running them with suppressors now.
On painting yeah that depends on a lot of things. My buddy did a deployment recently and ended up working with several other SF units. One of the takeaways was how much difference camo paint made to knock down the glint of their rifles. So when he came back I ended up coating all his rifles. He used to laugh at me because I was so old school and camo'd everything. But these are all privately owned; the ones in the armory, probably not. And this is at company level, in a NG Group. So if your sit is similar, then you may not be seeing painted rifles in your Armory either.
I based that statement just on anecdotal evidence, based on photos of supposed JSOC weapons in the wild. Actually the milsim guys, like "The Reptile House" have the best references of open source material. My assumption is they are probably legit. So based off that, I'd say any new rifles going into JSOC will have a high probability of being coated for deployment. Especially now since peer-to-peer threats are much more likely.
JSOC maybe, I don’t pretend to know what’s going on behind the curtain. With the URGI rails and several optics already being fielded in some tan variant though, almost all of the paint I’ve seen in a long time has been old.
I’m not disagreeing with the effectiveness, just saying that it’s far less common than many may expect.
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Yeah I gotcha, and you're right I went over to Reptile House this morning and sure as shit most "in the wild" pics weren't sporting any camo paint, IAW Murphy's Law.
So yeah you are absolutely right, at the "no" armory level (me), and the NG SF group level (my bud), there may not be any painted rifles floating around. And let me state for the record, I DO NOT know of anything going on at the CAG/Devgru level, other than what's available from open source material. So yeah I concur, at JSOC, maybe those guys are over there painting 'em for the win, but who knows.
I do know one thing. There is a higher level of awareness these days of what glints under NV. So it would not surprise me to see weapons (and other kit) painted on future deployments. I know the new anodizing is a vast improvement over the "black liqurice stick", but a nice flat coating over that would be even better. DDC may work, but "40MM" green needs some tweaking. Would not be surprised to see HK-style Olive Drab anodizing show up on Geiselle stuff.
Yeah I gotcha, and you're right I went over to Reptile House this morning and sure as shit most "in the wild" pics weren't sporting any camo paint, IAW Murphy's Law.
So yeah you are absolutely right, at the "no" armory level (me), and the NG SF group level (my bud), there may not be any painted rifles floating around. And let me state for the record, I DO NOT know of anything going on at the CAG/Devgru level, other than what's available from open source material. So yeah I concur, at JSOC, maybe those guys are over there painting 'em for the win, but who knows.
I do know one thing. There is a higher level of awareness these days of what glints under NV. So it would not surprise me to see weapons (and other kit) painted on future deployments. I know the new anodizing is a vast improvement over the "black liqurice stick", but a nice flat coating over that would be even better. DDC may work, but "40MM" green needs some tweaking. Would not be surprised to see HK-style Olive Drab anodizing show up on Geiselle stuff.
What deployments?
Uh, not sure on how to answer that. I have no crystal ball, so I cannot predict world events. I know my buddy's NG Group is still deploying to their their areas of responsibility. I can only ASSUme JSOC will be deploying to various locations around the globe. I know there is a big artic warfare exercise up in Norway this winter, because we have been invited to it, to show n tell our rucksacks. Luckily my boss has to go, not me, ha ha. My ASSumption is either 10th Group and/or 10th Mtn might be invited to the party.
So in generic terms, my assumption is that someone from SOCOM, be it SF, NSW, or JSOC components will probably camo their weapons on an overseas deployment in the future. Is that such a stretch? Maybe my boss could bring back some pics from Norway?
Uh, not sure on how to answer that. I have no crystal ball, so I cannot predict world events. I know my buddy's NG Group is still deploying to their their areas of responsibility. I can only ASSUme JSOC will be deploying to various locations around the globe. I know there is a big artic warfare exercise up in Norway this winter, because we have been invited to it, to show n tell our rucksacks. Luckily my boss has to go, not me, ha ha. My ASSumption is either 10th Group and/or 10th Mtn might be invited to the party.
So in generic terms, my assumption is that someone from SOCOM, be it SF, NSW, or JSOC components will probably camo their weapons on an overseas deployment in the future. Is that such a stretch? Maybe my boss could bring back some pics from Norway?
Oh yeah they’re still doing stuff like that but they have other stuff to think about besides painting rifles. It doesn’t really serve a significant purpose unless we’re already at war. Again, it’s not that I don’t think there is some value but you’re thinking about it as much more of a gun guy than most that are actual on teams.
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Ha ha of course I am, cuz that's just what I am. And never claimed any different. The vast majority of guys on the Teams have more to worry about than camo-painting their piece. However I stand by what my buddy said about IR glint, when they compared their kit to other Int'l SF teams. He said it was a real eye-opener. A lot of little nick-nook items, including their rifles, could stand to be toned-down. When you are switching gears and trying to sneak around somewhere, versus kicking in doors and throwing people through walls, old school fieldcraft might come back into play. But to your point, whether you do that on exercise, vs an actual mission is a judgement call.
I think I am biased towards this kind of shit because we cross-trained with the Brits, and their fieldcraft was impressive. All the little glinty things were painted down, taped off, or otherwise covered up. And the Brits love to paint their rifles. So yeah that does influence my thinking, because I happen to think they're light year ahead of most folks in this regard. That's why I run Brit-style belt kit and Aussie rucksacks. And always painted my rifles, which like you I suppose, continued to amuse my buddy for years. Until recently. Just FWIW.
I have zero need for this pistol but I’m pretty sure I’m going to own one…
I don’t need one either, but damnit, this is America and my Do Want is cranked up to 11!
You are shooting 1” groups, and up to 1.5” groups with M193 at 100 yards? That is impressive! Is this standing, kneeling or what sort of shooting position are you using?
Best I've ever been able to consistently produce with that ammo is 2-4" groups out of my most accurate rifles on a bench. I really don't like shooting it because I blame myself.
The same rifles that will shoot .25 MOA when I am doing my part with my hand loads.
Best I've ever been able to consistently produce with that ammo is 2-4" groups out of my most accurate rifles on a bench. I really don't like shooting it because I blame myself.
The same rifles that will shoot .25 MOA when I am doing my part with my hand loads.
What’s the best accuracy you’ve gotten with it with commercial loads?
If you get a Geissele black oxide rifle make sure you keep it lubed generously. Some guy just did an experiment comparing the Geissele black oxide vs. the Geissele nitride with a damp cloth. Photos included.
Here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/Black-Oxide-vs-Nitride-My-Science-Experiment/444-300329/
If you get a Geissele black oxide rifle make sure you keep it lubed generously. Some guy just did an experiment comparing the Geissele black oxide vs. the Geissele nitride with a damp cloth. Photos included.
Here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/Black-Oxide-vs-Nitride-My-Science-Experiment/444-300329/
Or don't wrap it in a damp cloth...
I would love to see that test performed on mag phosphate as a control though. I kinda doubt it would be much different. I've had phosphate barrels start to "brown" after all the oil cooked off and I left them un oiled for a while.
I would love to see that test performed on mag phosphate as a control though. I kinda doubt it would be much different. I've had phosphate barrels start to "brown" after all the oil cooked off and I left them un oiled for a while.
That’s a really great idea. I’d like to see that test too.
Duracoat gentleman.
Can duracoat handle the high temperatures of barrels?
Can duracoat handle the high temperatures of barrels?
Yes. Standard Duracoat is rated for 500-600 degrees, and they have a high temperature coating rated at 1500 degrees.
Well OK ya gonna get all technical on me. Yes, both Duracoat, and KG Gunkote have special formulations for high temp. Not to mention Cerakote if you're really that concerned about temps.
I thought we wuz talking about corrosion control but if you're one of these guys that shoots 10K a year and needs something like that, sure, it's there. Same for cans.
I say Duracoat because for me, it's the best all-around coating, especially if you factor in most guys don't have the set up to pull off a heat-cured product, so for a "field-expedient" solution, I think it works the best.
To me, most finishes are just a primer coat because I camo coat everything anyways. So I really don't care what finish Geiselle uses. It's gonna get coated!
Duracoat gentleman.
Yes, that works. Just about all my long guns are Duracoated (and baked afterwards) by my buddy who actually went to the Lauer Custom Duracoat course they offered at one time. He has all the stuff to include the oven. I always have the Duracoat match the underlying color: Colt Gray for phosphated/parkerized parts, and matte black for aluminum parts. No cammo patterns. That way there is corrosion control as well as if a scratch develops it's the same color as the underlying finish.
Well OK ya gonna get all technical on me. Yes, both Duracoat, and KG Gunkote have special formulations for high temp. Not to mention Cerakote if you're really that concerned about temps.
I thought we wuz talking about corrosion control but if you're one of these guys that shoots 10K a year and needs something like that, sure, it's there. Same for cans.
I say Duracoat because for me, it's the best all-around coating, especially if you factor in most guys don't have the set up to pull off a heat-cured product, so for a "field-expedient" solution, I think it works the best.
To me, most finishes are just a primer coat because I camo coat everything anyways. So I really don't care what finish Geiselle uses. It's gonna get coated!
KG gun kote is simple, just degrease, preheat, and then spray. Repeat a few times with preheating and spraying to keep a matte coat, then throw in the oven when you are done.
Yes. Standard Duracoat is rated for 500-600 degrees, and they have a high temperature coating rated at 1500 degrees.
I love Geissele, am a huge fan, but for $2200 I think they should make a superior barrel coating, like the material they use on their BCG, their DSL. The end user shouldn’t have to take apart the rifle & add a coating for $2200, it should be ready to go out of the box. Then again it’s just my opinion & I could be wrong.
I love Geissele, am a huge fan, but for $2200 I think they should make a superior barrel coating, like the material they use on their BCG, their DSL. The end user shouldn’t have to take apart the rifle & add a coating for $2200, it should be ready to go out of the box. Then again it’s just my opinion & I could be wrong.Completely agreed. The only thing I have a question about is if Bill G. was telling the truth about how his steel is more corrosion resistant compared to standard milspec 4150 and that the black oxide is sufficient. I would like to see the test mentioned earlier to be performed on a phosphate and one one G's black oxide barrel.
If it turns out it's just as corrosion resistant, then I guess it really doesn't matter. Gotta lube phosphate anyway, right?
Completely agreed. The only thing I have a question about is if Bill G. was telling the truth about how his steel is more corrosion resistant compared to standard milspec 4150 and that the black oxide is sufficient. I would like to see the test mentioned earlier to be performed on a phosphate and one one G's black oxide barrel.
If it turns out it's just as corrosion resistant, then I guess it really doesn't matter. Gotta lube phosphate anyway, right?
What do you think the best lube to protect the phosphate is? Oil, grease, wax etc?
Completely agreed. The only thing I have a question about is if Bill G. was telling the truth about how his steel is more corrosion resistant compared to standard milspec 4150 and that the black oxide is sufficient. I would like to see the test mentioned earlier to be performed on a phosphate and one one G's black oxide barrel.
If it turns out it's just as corrosion resistant, then I guess it really doesn't matter. Gotta lube phosphate anyway, right?
No one lubes the exterior of phosphate barrels...
No one lubes the exterior of phosphate barrels...I've read that the purpose of phosphate is to "hold" lube for the purpose of corrosion protection. I've sprayed AR barrels down withe CLP in years past if I want going to be using it for a while. Burns right off when it gets hot though.
I've read that the purpose of phosphate is to "hold" lube for the purpose of corrosion protection. I've sprayed AR barrels down withe CLP in years past if I want going to be using it for a while. Burns right off when it gets hot though.We were told that in basic training.
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We were told that in basic training.
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How often would you lube up your barrel?
How often would you lube up your barrel?LOL, I knew that was coming. We would wipe the barrel down whenever we pmcs'd the rifle.
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We were told that in basic training.
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And you were also probably taught to clean your rifle to white glove inspections standards...
And you were also probably taught to clean your rifle to white glove inspections standards...
Not saying it was correct, just saying we were told that.
No, its reasonable. The outside of .mil barrels will in fact rust under the right conditions. There’s a difference between cleaning something to death, and wiping a near invisible coat of oil on it from time to time.
Edit: this is not commentary on Geissele’s black oxide coating. I don’t know if it is more or less resistant, although I’m somewhat skeptical.
No, its reasonable. The outside of .mil barrels will in fact rust under the right conditions. There’s a difference between cleaning something to death, and wiping a near invisible coat of oil on it from time to time.
Edit: this is not commentary on Geissele’s black oxide coating. I don’t know if it is more or less resistant, although I’m somewhat skeptical.
I just read that putting a thin coat of marine grease on the outside of the barrel will give it excellent protection against salt water & the elements.
No one lubes the exterior of phosphate barrels...
Sez who?
I lube the exterior of everything that isn't treated in NP3+ and I have exactly 1.5 guns treated that way.
I don’t believe I’ve ever lubed the exterior of a barrel, to include the work gun in Hawaii.
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I lube BCG and FCG.
Don’t really ever clean either, unless I sell.
Different strokes fort different folks. In a very wet jungle environment, and when doing OTB stuff, we coated our rifles, inside and out with Break Free (was the best thing at the time). We also did a fresh water dunk and rinse routine, and re-oiled after everything dried out. This was Bn racoon on Oki, circa 1979. So if you are in similar circumstances, I would use a light coat of oil over everything, including the bbl.
Another datum point. I talked to several guys from the west coast teams and back then, they used "Kal Guard" spray and bake coating on their OTB weapons (MAC-10's and CAR-15's). This was to add extra corrosion resistance to the phosphate finish. They would buy it by the case from the local Kawasaki shop, which used it to coat exhaust pipes and crank cases. This later became "KG Gunkote" after it came into common use with lots of folks to coat their weapons. This illustrates the need, as seen by some, for a phosphate bbl to be coated, with something.
And yes, I used to clean to white glove stds. Don't anymore, but still coat weapons. The US southeast is damn-near as bad as Oki or the PI.
Different strokes for different folks. In a very wet jungle environment, and when doing OTB stuff, we coated our rifles, inside and out with Break Free (was the best thing at the time). We also did a fresh water dunk and rinse routine, and re-oiled after everything dried out. So if you are in similar circumstances, I would use a light coat of oil over everything, including the bbl.
Another datum point. I talked to several guys from the west coast teams and back then, they used "Kal Guard" spray and bake coating on their OTB weapons (MAC-10's and CAR-15's). This was to add extra corrosion resistance to the phosphate finish. They would buy it by the case from the local Kawasaki shop, which used it to coat exhaust pipes and crank cases. This later became "KG Gunkote" after it came into common use with lots of folks to coat their weapons. This illustrates the need, as seen by some, for a phosphate bbl to be coated, with something.
And yes, I used to clean to white glove stds. Don't anymore, but still coat weapons. The US southeast is damn-near as bad as Oki or the PI.
Genesis1980
11-09-21, 21:52
As opposed to your, and people like you's "unbiased" nonsense?
ffhounddog
11-10-21, 01:17
I have a Geissele Super Modular Rail MK13 M-LOK Handguard on my Colt 6920 should I be worried about using it? I was planning on tossing a Stream light weapon light on it and a PEQ-2A or a cqbl-1. Are there going to be issues?
TexasAggie2005
11-10-21, 09:02
I have a Geissele Super Modular Rail MK13 M-LOK Handguard on my Colt 6920 should I be worried about using it? I was planning on tossing a Stream light weapon light on it and a PEQ-2A or a cqbl-1. Are there going to be issues?
Nope.
I have a Geissele Super Modular Rail MK13 M-LOK Handguard on my Colt 6920 should I be worried about using it? I was planning on tossing a Stream light weapon light on it and a PEQ-2A or a cqbl-1. Are there going to be issues?
Nope. MK13 is my favorite rail.
Make sure the rail and barrel nut are free from oil/lube when install the rail over the nut, degrease and use blue locktite when you install the anti-rotate set screws.
Check clamp bolt torque after a few mags.
Uh G1980, are you talking to me? Your post came up right after mine, but I'm not sure what you're referring to?
I have a Geissele Super Modular Rail MK13 M-LOK Handguard on my Colt 6920 should I be worried about using it? I was planning on tossing a Stream light weapon light on it and a PEQ-2A or a cqbl-1. Are there going to be issues?
I guy I know has several MK16’s (made of same material) and he says they’ve been 100%. No issues.
I have 4, you’ll be fine.
PHOSPHATE FANS, check EE. [emoji41]
PHOSPHATE FANS, check EE. [emoji41]
You really think there’s that much of a difference between the phosphate & black oxide to buy the used phosphate ones on EE? Serious question because I really don’t know.
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