View Full Version : Question to real ‘pipe-hitters’ ‘snake-eaters’ etc-true effective range of AR?
Grendelshooter
08-03-21, 07:53
I am not nor was I ever an operator. I was a line unit grunt who did a couple deployments to the sandbox. From there I’ve become quite the AR enthusiast, as are we all.
So for my 16” 5.56 guns I kinda figure they are good out to 500-600 yards with mk262 clone loads which is most of what I have. This has dictated my choice of optics (LPVO in 1-6 and 2-10 range).
Now lately I’ve been re-examining this philosophy and find lots of people who claim to be subject matter experts in the way of the gun claiming that a 16” AR is no good past 300 yards. If that’s true then red dots on everything and keep things simple without the expense of more complex scopes. I run my ballistic calculators and see that the bullets themselves don’t go subsonic until we’ll past 600 which would dictate something with a bit more magnification.
So what gives? Why the disconnect between ballistics and concept? Is it just what’s ‘in’ now? Frankly I always liked my ACOG/RMR setup but seems like that’s ancient history now lol.
Straight Shooter
08-03-21, 08:02
IF you know the tenants of marksmanship, have accurate, heavy grained ammo, a good optic & can call wind...youre good on out to 800yds or more.
Iraqgunz..I THINK it was him, told a story of witnessing an 800yd {I THNK} shot whilst in the desert. Dont know if it was with an optic or what.
But anyway..its WAY out past 300 yards.
Grendelshooter
08-03-21, 08:07
IF you know the tenants of marksmanship, have accurate, heavy grained ammo, a good optic & can call wind...youre good on out to 800yds or more.
Iraqgunz..I THINK it was him, told a story of witnessing an 800yd {I THNK} shot whilst in the desert. Dont know if it was with an optic or what.
But anyway..its WAY out past 300 yards.
I’m no ninja but I do alright.
I remember the special forces guys we would work with (outer cordon during raids, transportation, etc) talking about MK12s and 262 being good to 800.
Straight Shooter
08-03-21, 08:14
I’m no ninja but I do alright.
I remember the special forces guys we would work with (outer cordon during raids, transportation, etc) talking about MK12s and 262 being good to 800.
Ive got a 20" SPR I had put together & if I could EVER get time behind the trigger..I would NOT hesitate to pop a shot out that far, if the wind wasnt crazy.
One of our esteemed members here recently put a round on target at 1300 yds..with a M700 I think it was, and several attempts. I dont know if that round woulda had "killin power" or not..but he did it.
Effective how? A 55 gr 5.56 bullet has about the same energy at 1000 meters as a standard velocity 22 LR does at the muzzle. At some point, hitting a target and having the desired effect on the target are not the same.
What do you intend to shoot at extended range?
Andy
Grendelshooter
08-03-21, 08:53
Effective how? A 55 gr 5.56 bullet has about the same energy at 1000 meters as a standard velocity 22 LR does at the muzzle. At some point, hitting a target and having the desired effect on the target are not the same.
What do you intend to shoot at extended range?
Andy
Covid vax zombies of course
I have a kill at 410 meters with a SDMR and M262. My old team/squad leader who went SF has kills out around 400 meters with his Mk18. Like was said above IraqGunz had a story of witnessing a SF guy smoking a dude at over 800 yards with a M4 and a LPVO of some sort.
I've seen guys shot with M855 out past 300 meters. It'll still drill a hole completely through you and probably come out sideways.
Eurodriver
08-03-21, 09:02
I have a kill at 410 meters with a SDMR and M262. My old team/squad leader who went SF has kills out around 400 meters with his Mk18. Like was said above IraqGunz had a story of witnessing a SF guy smoking a dude at over 800 yards with a M4 and a LPVO of some sort.
I've seen guys shot with M855 out past 300 meters. It'll still drill a hole completely through you and probably come out sideways.
That’s bogus. I was talking to a special ops Instagram guy. He’s salty at the moment that a Medal of Honor recipient called him out for being a nerd, but that’s a separate issue. Anyway, he said be was special forces USMC green beret and 5.56 deflected off blades of grass.
So 400m kills with an M4? No way!
There’s a few factors here. External ballistics, terminal performance, and you, the shooter. The max distance at which you can reliably spot and identify targets and get hits on a unknown distance target that has no desire to be shot is your max effective range. Sort of. Your projectile may or may not expand or upset or whatever at that distance, but IMO, all hits matter past a certain distance. Whether dude dies immediately, or simply starts bleeding is less important than at close range, where you need him out of the fight RIGHT NOW. Sure, the bullet performing as designed at 500 would be great, too. But here’s the thing…. you still have to see the threat, and identify it as a threat, and hit however much of the threat is presented. So its situationally dependent.
Eurodriver
08-03-21, 09:24
There’s a few factors here. External ballistics, terminal performance, and you, the shooter. The max distance at which you can reliably spot and identify targets and get hits on a unknown distance target that has no desire to be shot is your max effective range. Sort of. Your projectile may or may not expand or upset or whatever at that distance, but IMO, all hits matter past a certain distance. Whether dude dies immediately, or simply starts bleeding is less important than at close range, where you need him out of the fight RIGHT NOW. Sure, the bullet performing as designed at 500 would be great, too. But here’s the thing…. you still have to see the threat, and identify it as a threat, and hit however much of the threat is presented. So its situationally dependent.
Whatever. I have 20 days of training. I know more than you.
Whatever. I have 20 days of training. I know more than you.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤪
Grendelshooter
08-03-21, 09:42
That’s bogus. I was talking to a special ops Instagram guy. He’s salty at the moment that a Medal of Honor recipient called him out for being a nerd, but that’s a separate issue. Anyway, he said be was special forces USMC green beret and 5.56 deflected off blades of grass.
So 400m kills with an M4? No way!
��
Kind of the reaction I had initially. I just don’t see why people denigrate the 5.56. I thought that stuff died after Vietnam.
A combination of good shooter, good barrel, good ammo, and good spotter can put 5.56 on target well past 1000 yards with 16-18" barrels. Terminal ballistic performance will change or decline past certain distance/velocity thresholds. Choose the right combination of variables, know your gear, train hard for your needs.
Grendelshooter
08-03-21, 09:57
There’s a few factors here. External ballistics, terminal performance, and you, the shooter. The max distance at which you can reliably spot and identify targets and get hits on a unknown distance target that has no desire to be shot is your max effective range. Sort of. Your projectile may or may not expand or upset or whatever at that distance, but IMO, all hits matter past a certain distance. Whether dude dies immediately, or simply starts bleeding is less important than at close range, where you need him out of the fight RIGHT NOW. Sure, the bullet performing as designed at 500 would be great, too. But here’s the thing…. you still have to see the threat, and identify it as a threat, and hit however much of the threat is presented. So its situationally dependent.
So there is an argument to be made that an average shooter, even with a tricked out carbine, is only capable of effective use within a few hundred yards.
I could see that and agree.
just a scout
08-03-21, 10:04
So there is an argument to be made that an average shooter, even with a tricked out carbine, is only capable of effective use within a few hundred yards.
I could see that and agree.
Absolutely. But, it’s hats conflating the Indian with the arrow.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
So there is an argument to be made that an average shooter, even with a tricked out carbine, is only capable of effective use within a few hundred yards.
I could see that and agree.
Yes.
And your ACOG/RMR is still a viable choice.
with 16" & 4x acog i hit consistently to 500 with 55gr fed american eagle, and often enough to 800 if not too windy
with delta-dot rmr i'm good to 400 but my eyesight isn't that great
So there is an argument to be made that an average shooter, even with a tricked out carbine, is only capable of effective use within a few hundred yards.
I could see that and agree.
Absolutely. Effective range is irrelevant if you cannot consistently put hits on target.
MK262 from a 12.5 AR WORKS as it should at 500 meters (Give or take).
A combination of good shooter, good barrel, good ammo, and good spotter can put 5.56 on target well past 1000 yards with 16-18" barrels. Terminal ballistic performance will change or decline past certain distance/velocity thresholds. Choose the right combination of variables, know your gear, train hard for your needs.
Thank you, your post saved me from having to write out the same thing.
As has been said, there is a long list of variables involved in making effective hits on "light/medium game" at range. The further out you go the less those combined variables favor the shooter. Equipment selection, preparation, skill, assistance, and luck/chance can all effect those variables. Ballistics are one thing, "applied ballistics" is a different animal altogether.
I had a friend who knew a guy whose roommate's dog hooked up with a girl whose cousin knew a guy in Delta who once said hi to her and she always said... " can you hit your target at 800, bro? That's the first question."
But for real. You don't need credentialed veterans to answer this question. Ballistics charts and objective self-awareness have the answer.
I completely agree with the guys saying that actually hitting dudes out past a couple hundred meters is really hard. The only reason I have my long shot is I was in an overwatch position and the bad guys were shooting at the rest of my platoon who were in a completely opposite direction as me. He was utilizing cover and concealment from my guys he was shooting at but never saw me. So he was basically standing still in the open for me. But once I dropped him, my team leader (using a M4 and Aimpoint) opened up on the rest, they all scattered and started using cover and concealment against use. We sent a couple dozen more rounds into their area but it's unlikely we actually hit anyone else. That firefight resulted in 4 enemy dead, but the other 3 were probably not from me or my team leader.
I always hear guys talking about how we need a new main rifle cartridge because of the 5.56 short range. We need to "take back the infantry half kilometer" or whatever that paper said. I maintain that our problem with killing badguys at 300+ meters is not getting hits. In my opinion that comes from poor marksmanship and the fact that badguys tend not to stand around in the open. The advancement in optics has made and will make a much bigger difference in longer range performance than a switch to a bigger cartridge that will be harder for the average infantryman to shoot well.
Now switching because of armor penetration needs is a different discussion.
I maintain that our problem with killing badguys at 300+ meters is not getting hits.
This is spot on, along with the rest of what you said.
That’s bogus. I was talking to a special ops Instagram guy. He’s salty at the moment that a Medal of Honor recipient called him out for being a nerd, but that’s a separate issue. Anyway, he said be was special forces USMC green beret and 5.56 deflected off blades of grass.
So 400m kills with an M4? No way!
Dude, I thought you were dead.
crusader377
08-04-21, 10:33
I'm a bit more nuanced on the effective range of the AR chambered in 5.56. I believe the effective range is around 550M-600M. However, the AR platform is optimized for engagements in the 0-300M range which 90% of infantry combat in the last 100+ years has taken place at ranges under 300M. Can the AR make hits beyond 600M? Absolutely! However is it the best weapon for engagements over 600M? No.
Failure2Stop
08-04-21, 13:28
I've noticed an odd phenomenon in which folks that are trained and practiced on long-range shooting will tend to out-perform those that are not when shooting past 300.
Considering that Army doctrine and training effectively stops at 300 meters, and that not every soldier is an "expert" rifleman, it's not terribly surprising that 300 becomes their perceived limit of effectiveness.
You don't need to be Chuck Norris to clang steel at 600 yards with a 5.56 rifle.
Hell....there's an entire sport called service rifle that does it regularly . . . .with iron sights
just shoot
https://i.imgur.com/Ov1LGjT.jpg
Grendelshooter
08-05-21, 09:09
I've noticed an odd phenomenon in which folks that are trained and practiced on long-range shooting will tend to out-perform those that are not when shooting past 300.
Considering that Army doctrine and training effectively stops at 300 meters, and that not every soldier is an "expert" rifleman, it's not terribly surprising that 300 becomes their perceived limit of effectiveness.
I think ya hit on it.
Longest shot I’ve taken with a 5.56 load is 853 yards. Hit the rock I was aiming for, and did it with a fair amount of repeatability. From prone with bipod not really terribly difficult to do in the conditions I had. Same results with single loaded
So I see people talking about 5.56 being limited to 300 meters and not being a “600 yard gun” kinda makes me scratch my head, but if one has never trained past 300 yards how would they know?
The intrinsic problem with the question is defining "effective".
Do we consider the maximum effective range to be the range a skilled marksman can hit a man-sized target 10 of 10 times, the range an "average" Soldier/Marine can hit the same target 8 of 10 times, the range the projectile will achieve 10" of penetration in ballistic gelatin, or _______?
Andy
SAM-R, about 900 yards. Regular ol' M4, about 550. 99% were under 400 yards.
crusader377
08-05-21, 12:09
The longest hit that I made with an AR is 740M which is 809 yards. I did that with my 16" BCM SOCOM upper which I borrowed a friends 3-15 scope. I was shooting 75gr PRVI match and using the ballistic calculator app on my phone, the round was transitioning from supersonic/subsonic at that range. I had more misses than hits at that range. The next longer ranged target at the range I was shooting at was 810M (885 yards) and I was unsuccessful in hitting the target at that range using the rifle I had. I was comfortable making hits on the targets which were ranged between 600M-650M. Overall, I was happy with the performance of my rifle considering I was shooting a relatively basic AR with a chrome line barrel, with relatively standard trigger (BCM trigger), and cheap match ammo.
Although I shot to 740M with that rifle, I still consider it more of a 600M gun simply because that was the range that I felt I had a high probability of a hit if I did my job right.
With the optic I normally mount on the rifle (SWFA 1x4) I consider the rifle a 500M gun more simply due to the limits of my sight and since I normally don't mount a bipod on it.
Eurodriver
08-06-21, 05:15
You don't need to be Chuck Norris to clang steel at 600 yards with a 5.56 rifle.
Hell....there's an entire sport called service rifle that does it regularly . . . .with iron sights
just shoot
https://i.imgur.com/Ov1LGjT.jpg
100%
I like that. Just shoot.
IF you know the tenants of marksmanship, have accurate, heavy grained ammo, a good optic & can call wind...youre good on out to 800yds or more.
Iraqgunz..I THINK it was him, told a story of witnessing an 800yd {I THNK} shot whilst in the desert. Dont know if it was with an optic or what.
But anyway..its WAY out past 300 yards.Five minutes of instruction and my 17-year-old son was killing E-type steel targets to 875 yards shooting 77-grainers through a mid-length:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/DSC00787_JPG-2042502.JPG
Five minutes of instruction and my 17-year-old son was killing E-type steel targets to 875 yards shooting 77-grainers through a mid-length:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/DSC00787_JPG-2042502.JPG
Is it free-floated?
Besides that, it’s awesome to see that he’s obviously having fun doing it with you.
Five minutes of instruction and my 17-year-old son was killing E-type steel targets to 875 yards shooting 77-grainers through a mid-length:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/DSC00787_JPG-2042502.JPG
That is awesome!
sidewaysil80
08-06-21, 19:40
I think ya hit on it.
Longest shot I’ve taken with a 5.56 load is 853 yards. Hit the rock I was aiming for, and did it with a fair amount of repeatability. From prone with bipod not really terribly difficult to do in the conditions I had. Same results with single loaded
So I see people talking about 5.56 being limited to 300 meters and not being a “600 yard gun” kinda makes me scratch my head, but if one has never trained past 300 yards how would they know?
Being able to ring steel and/or hit paper at 800 is one thing, the round maintaining it’s lethality at 800 is another. I’m not doubting the round can get on target there (regularly shot to 500 with iron sights), but I’m doubting it’s capability/lethality on the human body once it gets there.
turnburglar
08-06-21, 20:34
Being able to ring steel and/or hit paper at 800 is one thing, the round maintaining it’s lethality at 800 is another. I’m not doubting the round can get on target there (regularly shot to 500 with iron sights), but I’m doubting it’s capability/lethality on the human body once it gets there.
The numbers according to Strelok are: 1200 FPS making 250 foots pounds of energy. So its in the 9mm/380 arena of 'knock down power'. Also if you are using tipped or BTHP rounds they still MIGHT do their little fragmentation trick. It's not an absolute death beam like 556 point blank; but should you hit the vitals it will still kill 2 legged critters. Anywhere other than vitals and your target is having a bad day. Good thing 556 allows for amazing fast follow up shots.
For reference:
my 6.5 Creedmoor with 140 ELDM's is making 1700 FPS and 900ft#'s at 800. I'm sure THAT is where most people would consider lethality; but a soft skinned critter still couldn't shrug off a hit from 556 at that distance. I think people forget that 556 from a M249 is considered effective out too a kilometer or more. Plunging fire does kill maim and wound even if the numbers dont look super hot.
Being able to ring steel and/or hit paper at 800 is one thing, the round maintaining it’s lethality at 800 is another. I’m not doubting the round can get on target there (regularly shot to 500 with iron sights), but I’m doubting it’s capability/lethality on the human body once it gets there.
In my opinion, this is where mobility comes into play.
If all I manage is to wing you at 500, then I'll start aggressively closing the distance until I'm close enough to kill you. Almost every time I ever shot at someone, it was followed by maneuvering toward or using indirect fire to prevent their egress while we kept killing them with 240s/mortars. Applying that mentality to where I am in life now (no gun teams or calling for fire...lame) if I can hit it, I'll start making my way closer until I can kill it or I'll break contact.
I think that with the OPs rifle, a 600m max effective range is realistic. But a rack grade trigger finger and shitty tactics will squash that distance pretty quickly.
Is it free-floated?
Besides that, it’s awesome to see that he’s obviously having fun doing it with you.It's his 16-inch mid-length floated Frankengun with a TA01B ACOG and Geissele SSA.
As for bullet energy, you can hear the rounds slap the Iron Maidens and know you have a hit.
If you can see it you can hit it. If you can hit it you can kill it.
Five minutes of instruction and my 17-year-old son was killing E-type steel targets to 875 yards shooting 77-grainers through a mid-length:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/DSC00787_JPG-2042502.JPG
That is so cool, I hope to have my 13 year old Daughter shooting out to 450 to 500 yards next weekend.
Any 5.56 isnt going to hit like a hammer at 800 yards. But, like I said before, it's probably gonna drill a hole completely through you. And it will probably yaw along the way leaving a 1 inch wide wound.
According to the internet the nominal 32 ACP load is a 60 grain bullet at 1100 FPS. While no one thinks the 32 ACP is a powerhouse, no one believes getting shot in the chest with one is good for your health either. So our M855 is slightly heavier, going slightly faster, and has significantly better sectional density.
Hitting a guy in the upper torso is likely to perforate very vital structures like the heart, lungs, liver, and the major blood vessels. While the smaller slow bullet isnt likely to cause immediate catastrophic blood loss (sans center punching the heart or aorta) hits to those organs are going to cause very grievous wounds that are going to require immediate first aide. On top of that the guy is still a half mile away from me. He can sit there a bleed a while.
Straight Shooter
08-07-21, 11:02
Five minutes of instruction and my 17-year-old son was killing E-type steel targets to 875 yards shooting 77-grainers through a mid-length:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/DSC00787_JPG-2042502.JPG
That is a terrific pic, sir. I know he was excited, & you too.
Guy 1: 5.56 isn't viable or lethal past 400
Guy 2:*loads 2* go stand at 800
Guy 1: What? No!
Guy 2 : Why not?
End of discussion
Sorry couldn't help myself
Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
The real issue is is how far out before 50% of the time a COM hit on a target is not a fatal shot, or at least a take out of the battle shot? This is what effective range is all about. Not how far you can pierce a paper target or clang some giant steel plate.
The real issue is is how far out before 50% of the time a COM hit on a target is not a fatal shot, or at least a take out of the battle shot? This is what effective range is all about. Not how far you can pierce a paper target or clang some giant steel plate.Not arguing. 99% of the Army can't shoot for shit, and can't / don't believe those who do can and DO hit to 600 yards or further with an issued carbine and ACOG.
Not arguing. 99% of the Army can't shoot for shit, and can't / don't believe those who do can and DO hit to 600 yards or further with an issued carbine and ACOG.
When you had your son shooting 77gr pills at distance what hold-overs/unders were you using on that ACOG? IIRC there is not a reticle specifically for 77gr rounds (is there?). I have two ACOGs: one is a TA-31 with the horseshoe dot reticle and standard BDC, the other is the same but with the Primary Arms ACSS reticle (basically alike except for the Rooskie-style ranging thing in the lower right hand corner).
The 7.62 reticle and 77s run fairly true to the BDC markings out of a 16-incher.
1168 says the reticle in the Steiner P4xi is fairly close as well if you use the cross (red dot) at 200.
The 7.62 reticle and 77s run fairly true to the BDC markings out of a 16-incher.
1168 says the reticle in the Steiner P4xi is fairly close as well if you use the cross (red dot) at 200.
Jeez, I wasn't even thinking about the 7.62 BDC, but I've heard that before about 77gr 5.56 ammo.
The only LPVO I have is the Steiner P4xi, and that is on the recommendation of 1168. Small world! LOL
Thanks.
There’s a big difference between ballistic effectiveness and combat effectiveness. Personally, I have never seen a prone shot on a stationary target. It was always from an improvised position, often offhand, always on a moving target that was sometimes shooting back at you.
An enormous amount of luck is involved in hits past 400 yards under those circumstances. It can be done, but there’s an enormous amount of luck. I remember the first time I went 1200 with the M24. I bottomed out the turret and held at the bottom of the reticle. It was at that point I realized what these “longest sniper shots in history” really were- 51+% luck.
I am not at all related to the military or police in any way, just a recreational shooter and hunter that has been shooting the .223/5.56 for quite a while.
I got my first exposure to the .223/5.56 while working on a fairly large cattle ranch in north Texas. The owner tasked the foreman and myself with eliminating pigs and other varmints as quickly as possible and gave us 1000 rounds of M193 to get started. I was using a Ruger M77 MKII with a 2.5x8 Leupold. After shooting several pigs, the first thing I learned is that the 55 grain FMJ absolutely destroys things inside of about 250 yards. We were amazed. The next thing we learned it that you can hit things much further away than you can quickly kill them.
We were lucky to get to shoot everyday and got pretty good. I was actually talking to my buddy on the phone the other day and we were talking about a shot I made across a hay meadow one day on a coyote. It was from the entrance gate to a dead pile at the back of the meadow. The coyotes were eating dead cows and did not notice us. I took my time and made a good hit. the coyote circled several times and then took off into the recently cut hay meadow. It made it about 300 yards before it died. The round entered from the left rear hip, passed up through the body cavity, and exited through the shoulder/front ribs area. While skinning the coyote we observed that the bullet punched straight through like an icepick. The coyote died from blood loss. We were lucky because it ran into the meadow, if it ran into the trees we would have never found it.
After I talked with my buddy, I used Google maps to figure out how far the shot was and it came out to about +/- 700 yards. Lucky day for me, unlucky day for the coyote.
So while you may be able to make long distance hits it doesn't always translate into rapid incapacitation.
Here is a screen shot for reference:
66256
Close range hits don’t translate into incapacitation, either. They must be CNS regardless of the range.
Straight Shooter
08-10-21, 11:22
Close range hits don’t translate into incapacitation, either. They must be CNS regardless of the range.
CPM, you probably know this, or others may also...but quite some time ago I read here I think, there are 3 reasons people stop violent responses when shot..physiological, psychological, & one more I cant remember. You, or anyone know the third?
CPM, you probably know this, or others may also...but quite some time ago I read here I think, there are 3 reasons people stop violent responses when shot..physiological, psychological, & one more I cant remember. You, or anyone know the third?
Man, I have never heard of that. My standard was the gunfight isn’t over until there is no weapon in your opponents hands or they no longer have the ability to apply the necessary pressure on the trigger to discharge it. Lowering someone’s blood pressure to achieve that second standard takes an awfully long time.
vicious_cb
08-10-21, 16:02
That’s bogus. I was talking to a special ops Instagram guy. He’s salty at the moment that a Medal of Honor recipient called him out for being a nerd, but that’s a separate issue. Anyway, he said be was special forces USMC green beret and 5.56 deflected off blades of grass.
So 400m kills with an M4? No way!
Exactly. I also nominate this thread for the dumbest title in 2021 so far.
Brazzers
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-z5hrH1cxfxE/USmcKRyeChI/AAAAAAAATAE/6Bf6TJq1SZ8/s1600/Askar+AS+minum+darah+ular+tedung+ikhtiar+hidup+dalam+hutan+11.jpg
Defaultmp3
08-10-21, 16:13
CPM, you probably know this, or others may also...but quite some time ago I read here I think, there are 3 reasons people stop violent responses when shot..physiological, psychological, & one more I cant remember. You, or anyone know the third?Probably psychological and the two physiological, CNS and bleeding out.
Grendelshooter
08-12-21, 06:00
Exactly. I also nominate this thread for the dumbest title in 2021 so far.
Brazzers
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-z5hrH1cxfxE/USmcKRyeChI/AAAAAAAATAE/6Bf6TJq1SZ8/s1600/Askar+AS+minum+darah+ular+tedung+ikhtiar+hidup+dalam+hutan+11.jpg
66266
Probably psychological and the two physiological, CNS and bleeding out.
I would add shock, although its rather hand in hand with both psychological and bleeding out.
Effective range? I know I can hit a man sized and half sized steel target at 300yrds with a 14.5 barrel and A1 irons. That with my late middle age eyes. So yes, I think hits out to and past 400 are possible, especially with optics. Ballistic effectiveness is another matter and I defer to those with way more knowledge and experience than I.
Being able to ring steel and/or hit paper at 800 is one thing, the round maintaining it’s lethality at 800 is another. I’m not doubting the round can get on target there (regularly shot to 500 with iron sights), but I’m doubting it’s capability/lethality on the human body once it gets there.
We used 77gr Gold Metal Match. It was fair at those distances. If I regularly needed to go at those distances I would switch out to a 7.62 DMR, but usually the SAM-R was good enough.
Mysteryman
08-12-21, 12:56
The real issue is is how far out before 50% of the time a COM hit on a target is not a fatal shot, or at least a take out of the battle shot? This is what effective range is all about. Not how far you can pierce a paper target or clang some giant steel plate.
Who said anything about being lethal? Stopping the threat doesn't mean killing it. Single shot incapacitation isn't necessary either at the distances being discussed.
Being able to ring steel and/or hit paper at 800 is one thing, the round maintaining it’s lethality at 800 is another. I’m not doubting the round can get on target there (regularly shot to 500 with iron sights), but I’m doubting it’s capability/lethality on the human body once it gets there.
Same answer as above. I doubt you or anyone else would volunteer to get shot at 800 metres with any calibre of projectile.
Any 5.56 isnt going to hit like a hammer at 800 yards. But, like I said before, it's probably gonna drill a hole completely through you. And it will probably yaw along the way leaving a 1 inch wide wound.
According to the internet the nominal 32 ACP load is a 60 grain bullet at 1100 FPS. While no one thinks the 32 ACP is a powerhouse, no one believes getting shot in the chest with one is good for your health either. So our M855 is slightly heavier, going slightly faster, and has significantly better sectional density.
Hitting a guy in the upper torso is likely to perforate very vital structures like the heart, lungs, liver, and the major blood vessels. While the smaller slow bullet isnt likely to cause immediate catastrophic blood loss (sans center punching the heart or aorta) hits to those organs are going to cause very grievous wounds that are going to require immediate first aide. On top of that the guy is still a half mile away from me. He can sit there a bleed a while.
I absolutely agree!!!
CPM, you probably know this, or others may also...but quite some time ago I read here I think, there are 3 reasons people stop violent responses when shot..physiological, psychological, & one more I cant remember. You, or anyone know the third?
Physiological, psychological and neurological. In layman's terms. He quits because he believes he's done, he quits because his hydraulics have failed(blood loss) or he quits because his computer is broken(Brain/spine).
My experience is that very few quit because they believe they are done.
Failure2Stop
08-13-21, 10:23
Same answer as above. I doubt you or anyone else would volunteer to get shot at 800 metres with any calibre of projectile.
Not targeting you specifically, but rather the oft used challenge of volunteering for getting shot with whatever caliber at whatever distance the discussion is revolving around.
There is a vast difference between willingly exposing ones self to harm and the performance potential of a projectile with a set value of energy/velocity/wounding capability/etc., and using it as proof of anything should be avoided in intelligent discussion and debate.
Not targeting you specifically, but rather the oft used challenge of volunteering for getting shot with whatever caliber at whatever distance the discussion is revolving around.
There is a vast difference between willingly exposing ones self to harm and the performance potential of a projectile with a set value of energy/velocity/wounding capability/etc., and using it as proof of anything should be avoided in intelligent discussion and debate.
A timely interjection, thank you.
Mysteryman
08-15-21, 14:55
Not targeting you specifically, but rather the oft used challenge of volunteering for getting shot with whatever caliber at whatever distance the discussion is revolving around.
There is a vast difference between willingly exposing ones self to harm and the performance potential of a projectile with a set value of energy/velocity/wounding capability/etc., and using it as proof of anything should be avoided in intelligent discussion and debate.
Absolutely agree. My point is this. No one has any idea what they are being shot at with, which means it makes no difference. No one wants to be shot with any style of bullet from any calibre of firearm. The performance of any specific bullet is an after effect of making hits. There's no guarantee of terminal performance either, and I doubt anyone has the confidence in their particular load to bank their life on one, two, three etc hits being enough. Shooting until the threat stops is the gold standard regardless of calibre or bullet design. With that being said, is it more important to concern yourself with the ammo you choose, or the ability to put rounds on target?
vicious_cb
08-15-21, 19:44
Absolutely agree. My point is this. No one has any idea what they are being shot at with, which means it makes no difference. No one wants to be shot with any style of bullet from any calibre of firearm. The performance of any specific bullet is an after effect of making hits. There's no guarantee of terminal performance either, and I doubt anyone has the confidence in their particular load to bank their life on one, two, three etc hits being enough. Shooting until the threat stops is the gold standard regardless of calibre or bullet design. With that being said, is it more important to concern yourself with the ammo you choose, or the ability to put rounds on target?
Good thing F2S stopped this thread from going full retard. Don't embarrass yourself like the spare bolt thread.
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