View Full Version : How many of you are issued a full auto?
Eurodriver
08-11-21, 15:44
Strictly speaking to LEOs - obviously the .mil has M16s and M4s.
Do you get one? Do you train with it on FA frequently? (For more than just muzzle flash full TikTok videos?)
I presume most local/state agencies which issue semi autos allow for modifications and taking it home but FAs?
Didn't know Canadian Police took US Ex-pats.
My Brother is a Deputy Sheriff in a very rural area. The department sold their transferable Thompson SMGs and bought some HK 416s with supressors. The do not train with the rifles on full auto.
When my brother had one issued, it went home with him. I provided ammo and shot it one day.
Andy
County sheriff deputies in my county have FA weapons in the armory, but duty/patrol weapons are semi. Quite a few have fired the FA guns but none have actual training on how to use FA. My county and the local PD in Arizona were the same.
Da Fuq Euro? When did you go LEO? You ain't like that scrawny little accountant mother f'er in "The Untouchables" are ya? ;) :p
When I switched to the SO from the PD and went on the team, I was initially issued an MP-5 Navy, the team was about 50/50 MP-5's and F/A and 3 round burst SBR's. After playing with it awhile I turned it in and requested permission to carry my own S/A BCM 14.5 pinned LW. I never carried another F/A in law enforcement. After I was elected I sold all the F/A's to a class 3 dealer and purchased new Sionics rifles for all enforcement. I've never felt the need for F/A, especially in law enforcement. I think the crappy triggers(3 round burst) and multiple rounds let go are unnecessary anyway and in this "let's all hate the LEO's" climate it's just one more issue I won't have to deal with.
More accurate to say select fire. M249's, M240s and such are full auto/machine guns.
More accurate to say select fire. M249's, M240s and such are full auto/machine guns.
OK I suppose, so Ma Deuce is select fire!
vicious_cb
08-11-21, 17:18
Strictly speaking to LEOs - obviously the .mil has M16s and M4s.
Do you get one? Do you train with it on FA frequently? (For more than just muzzle flash full TikTok videos?)
I presume most local/state agencies which issue semi autos allow for modifications and taking it home but FAs?
Bro, pretty sure you have to go to SERE school and eat snakes for that.
FWIW, auto on M16/M4s is a great way to expend ammo before end of fiscal year. Other than that, I didn't have much use for it in the Corps. YMMV
OK I suppose, so Ma Deuce is select fire!
Technically yes.
FWIW, auto on M16/M4s is a great way to expend ammo before end of fiscal year. Other than that, I didn't have much use for it in the Corps. YMMV
I see the value of full auto for a sub gun or crew serve, but no real "need" for a fighting carbine.
Our Sheriff office (Utah County) has some deputy's who roll with FA options. One of the deputies, who is on the SWAT team, used a FA MP5 on a suspect who had just been involved in an OIS during a stop. Here is the dash cam video of the deputy mag dumping his FA MP5 into the suspect's vehicle on the offramp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuDvph14nmA
vicious_cb
08-11-21, 18:30
Our Sheriff office (Utah County) has some deputy's who roll with FA options. One of the deputies, who is on the SWAT team, used a FA MP5 on a suspect who had just been involved in an OIS during a stop. Here is the dash cam video of the deputy mag dumping his FA MP5 into the suspect's vehicle on the offramp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuDvph14nmA
So hes mag dumping in the direction of on coming traffic on a clearly busy highway. Know your backstop and beyond, accountable for every bullet ect ect. Pretty cool video for "only the police should have _____".
I see the value of full auto for a sub gun or crew serve, but no real "need" for a fighting carbine.
SAWS and belt feds for sure. That's a different story altogether.
But either way I can't see cops needing to go auto. I mean short of FPF if they are under mass assault WTF would they use it for. Besides in this environment? Are you f'ing kidding me? Libs and the press would go f'ing apeshit no matter how justified. Catch that on camera and heads will explode.
vicious_cb
08-11-21, 18:36
Our Sheriff office (Utah County) has some deputy's who roll with FA options. One of the deputies, who is on the SWAT team, used a FA MP5 on a suspect who had just been involved in an OIS during a stop. Here is the dash cam video of the deputy mag dumping his FA MP5 into the suspect's vehicle on the offramp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuDvph14nmA
After alittle research, he did hit innocent civilians. What a tard.
(KUTV) -- Police released dash-camera video Wednesday from an officer-involved shooting that occurred along Interstate 15 in late December 2017 that also injured citizens not involved in the chase.
Arturo Ray Gallemore-Jimenez, the suspect in the officer-involved shooting, allegedly shot at Utah County officers on the night of Dec. 20. Police said Wednesday a stray bullet from an officer’s gun hit a passing car with six family members inside. Another bullet hit a bystander in the area.
During the shooting exchange in Springville, Utah, a stray bullet from the officer’s gun hit a passing car with six family members inside. Another bullet hit a bystander in the area. The bystander, an adult male, was along the Interstate re-fueling his broken-down car before being struck, Sheriff Tracy told 2News on Wednesday. He was taken to the hospital and has since been released.
https://kutv.com/news/local/released-dash-cam-footage-shows-police-firing-in-response-to-alleged-shooting
Didn't know Canadian Police took US Ex-pats.
I just spit beer out of my nose.
Eurodriver
08-11-21, 18:59
I just spit beer out of my nose.
Canadian agencies are just like US agencies these days. The only criteria is that you are willing to do the job. There’s no barrier to entry for someone who crossed the border (in either direction) chasing tail :)
Pretty sure I spoke to this exact topic about 7 years ago when I was banned for being anti-LE (the irony…) :sarcastic:
We dont have them and I dont think any agencies in the area have them either. From what Ive heard from around the country is they are becoming much less popular. Besides the fact that I cant even think of a real need for full auto guns in LE, that is a lot of extra paperwork to keep track of instead of just issuing a Colt/BCM/DD/etc. rifle.
Our SWAT team got rid of them probably 10 or more years ago and they only keep a couple around with dedicated sims uppers for force on force training.
We have M4A1s… most aren’t marked as A1s, but all are full auto. We do have one odd Colt semi-auto (LE6920) that is floating around.
We do not train on full auto. We all qualify on the rifle, but to be fair, there are officers that I wouldn’t want grabbing a semi-auto rifle… let alone a full auto. And of those, some of them worry me having a Glock on their belt.
With qualifications, some F/Is will say you can run full auto on the close in stuff (have like 5 rounds left in the magazine). I even think that is dumb, as you aren’t giving any instruction other than that. If you are going to “offer” it, make sure people know what happens when you flick to that third position.
But our last practical shoot… we had a stage where the rifle had ten rounds, and there were three targets to engage. Nothing too hard. It was timed event, and you only got points on the rifle for hits (nothing taken away for misses). After those targets, we had to clear the rifle. So, what’s the easiest way to clear the gun on a clock with no penalties for misses? Empty it into the dirt.
There was also a part of this practical where we had to disassemble and then reassemble a Glock red gun (auto reset trigger). The F/I said that if we don’t handle the red gun safely, we would be DQed and possibly have our firearm taken away. I laughed when he said it again, because this shoot was based as responding to a school… during an active shooter scenario. Frustration with disassembly of a red gun is serious… but emptying seven rounds downrange at a school in a full auto burst is ok. In case anyone wants to think all L/E training on the Federal level is worthwhile…
So hes mag dumping in the direction of on coming traffic on a clearly busy highway. Know your backstop and beyond, accountable for every bullet ect ect. Pretty cool video for "only the police should have _____".
They had shut the freeway down before that mag dump, IIRC.
After alittle research, he did hit innocent civilians. What a tard.
It was the first two officers shooting when they were initially shot at during the traffic stop that hit a bystander. I don't think it happened during the mag dump. Not defending any of them. You definitely need to understand the backstop. Shootouts on the freeway are always dangerous ways to hit innocents.
Friend of mine was an armorer for his SO about 10-11 years ago and they had full auto LMTs set up basically like a general issue M4 with Aimpoints and some kind of Surefire lights.
They were high speed back then and I was awesome asf when he’d let me use his gun at matches. The close in hoser stages got F/A and everyone was so impressed and jealous and their girlfriends all wanted me. Nah, really it just pissed everyone off because it made taping targets a task!
I'm not sure how many of them are actually issued full auto weapons, but Oklahoma Highway Patrol has a few floating around apparently.
This was from a gunfight with a murder suspect a few years ago. Near the end of the fight the officer engages the guy in full auto.
https://youtu.be/TVFFmTcY1zk
ThirdWatcher
08-12-21, 02:13
The small town municipal agency I worked at after I retired had FA M16A1’s in most of the (pool) cars. I wouldn’t be comfortable using a rifle I hadn’t personally sighted in so I always carried my own SA carbine. I don’t remember anyone ever firing any of the M16A1’s FA anyway, even at the range. (I probably would have fired one FA at the range but being an Army veteran I didn’t feel the need). I did get shoot an HK33 FA at Firearms Instructor In-Service training several years earlier and I was favorably impressed, HK builds a good weapon.
I know Colt had a "Semi conversion" kit with the required parts for PDs to convert M-16s to semi auto only. It was not permanent - selector and some other FCG parts I think.
IMHO the potential liability outweighs any advantage select fire provides rank-and-file law enforcement.
Andy
I have fought in multiple wars and more anti terror ops, than I can count.
I have NEVER fired full auto out of a magazine fed weapon, when it was too make sure me and mine stayed alive.
Belt fed, different animal.
On the range it is fun for one mag dump then it bores me.
I think the video link that was posted is why LE should not have full auto.
OK I suppose, so Ma Deuce is select fire!
They put scopes on them and used them as .50 caliber sniper...uh...rifles? back in Vietnam.
They put scopes on them and used them as .50 caliber sniper...uh...rifles? back in Vietnam.
Yes Carlos Hathcock did as well.
Yes Carlos Hathcock did as well.
As far as I know it was only Hathcock. Leave it to an Arkansas redneck to turn a belt fed into a "precision" rifle.
We used to be issued select-fire SBRs for SWAT. I have been the lead armorer for quite some time and we had a scheduled replacement of all SWAT rifles a couple years ago. I was not the most popular guy for pushing this agenda, but I sleep soundly knowing that my opinion to go semi-auto only was correct and most reasonable for civilian LE (went Colt LE6943). My logic was that we barely train enough on the rifles as it is, the average SWAT guy is not a gun guy that will train on their own, and if we are barely shooting enough as it is, we should not be wasting valuable ammo on FA drills. If we train to have the weapon on safe when making entry and switch to semi upon encountering a threat, we would likely never be on Auto anyways and LE suppressive fire isn’t a thing. Having been involved in an incident and using FA, it scares the crap out of me knowing that in hindsight things were way different than on the range and people hit don’t stay in one place like a paper target on a backer. Too many variables, too little realistic training, too much liability for any round missed, and ammo suck for training are all no-go’s in my book and I would gladly make the same decision in the future, even if the Chicks-Dig-It factor went away. Sorry, not sorry, learn to shoot properly and effectively on semi.
The state agency where I live secured 392 M-16 rifles from the Department of the Army to supplement their patrol rifle program. Before issuing the rifles the fire control group parts were switched, so they would not fire full auto.
Unless you are being overrun by several hundred armed attackers, there is no need for full auto rifles and carbines in a law enforcement unit. SWAT people I have discussed this issue with over the past 30 years agree.
As far as I know it was only Hathcock. Leave it to an Arkansas redneck to turn a belt fed into a "precision" rifle.
Could be wrong, but I got the impression it was something they did from time to time. I think I even remember reading that it was the whole reason they wanted a .50 cal rifle and that led to the Barrett and everything.
One of our specialized units is issued select fire SBRs with suppressors. They do train on full auto, and qualify on the POST select fire course three times per year. They have had several OIS’s involving select fire, so far no negative repercussions. I am friends with a bunch of them and most would be fine with semi, but they aren’t looking to get rid of select fire otherwise.
For rifles and carbines it's really pointless IMO. Yes, with proper training and proper use of those skills it can be useable. Even then it's not an efficient use of ammo. Rapid, aimed fire in semi automatic is the most effective use of an individual weapon. I was pretty good, but even with that training I couldn't put rounds on target with auto fire (or joke ass burst) with anywhere near the efficacy that I could with semi.
Of course even knowing that, if they had told me they were eliminating select fire I would have been pissed. There was always that thought of "I might need it someday". Even though I logically knew better, I still wanted it available. Can't explain it, too many movies I guess. Full auto always works great in the movies.
I'm not sure how many of them are actually issued full auto weapons, but Oklahoma Highway Patrol has a few floating around apparently.
This was from a gunfight with a murder suspect a few years ago. Near the end of the fight the officer engages the guy in full auto.
https://youtu.be/TVFFmTcY1zk
That was an interesting and tense few days. The guys on FA were the Tactical Team guys that had been mobilized and moved to that area due to sightings and the subsequent shooting of a Deputy which led them to Vance and the pursuit.
Side note, the guys in the airship were rockstars. At the beginning of the pursuit they’d already exhausted all but 15 mins of their fuel. They discussed it and decided there was no way they could bail on the guys and ultimately had to put the AStar down in a field in the middle of BFE immediately at the conclusion of the pursuit and shooting.
One of our specialized units is issued select fire SBRs with suppressors. They do train on full auto, and qualify on the POST select fire course three times per year. They have had several OIS’s involving select fire, so far no negative repercussions. I am friends with a bunch of them and most would be fine with semi, but they aren’t looking to get rid of select fire otherwise.
I can see how police could benefit from full auto since they don't have any dedicated squad weapons. Nothing makes someone keep their head down like 3-5 angry hornets drilling their cover every two seconds.
It's a literal crime that they have it when we don't, and were I a sheriff or chief I wouldn't let my officers have anything civilians are outright prohibited from having, but that's another discussion I guess.
I can see how police could benefit from full auto since they don't have any dedicated squad weapons. Nothing makes someone keep their head down like 3-5 angry hornets drilling their cover every two seconds.
It's a literal crime that they have it when we don't, and were I a sheriff or chief I wouldn't let my officers have anything civilians are outright prohibited from having, but that's another discussion I guess.
I don't think we as law enforcement need full auto or belt fed for anything. A precision rifleman would be better in almost all those situations. SWAT is a thinking mans game, versus a cowboy gunslinger seen on television or the movies. Tactics and procedures have changed dramatically over the last decade as well. Even if the bad guys had F/A I still don't want one. Let them miss a lot, not us.
I don't think we as law enforcement need full auto or belt fed for anything. A precision rifleman would be better in almost all those situations. SWAT is a thinking mans game, versus a cowboy gunslinger seen on television or the movies. Tactics and procedures have changed dramatically over the last decade as well. Even if the bad guys had F/A I still don't want one. Let them miss a lot, not us.
What I'm saying is infantry rarely use the fun switch on their rifles because they have the squad level weapons. Working as a team, like those highway patrolmen did, full auto ARs can be extremely effective. One or two guys keep a steady stream of lead going downrange while one or two more take precise shots. Were I on the receiving end of that, I wouldn't perceive it as a waste of ammo. I think every cop in the nation ought to be issued a select fire Colt commando, but obviously only after the Hughes amendment is overturned. Militarize the shit out of them for all I care, as long as The People are militarized first.
tanksoldier
08-17-21, 17:23
Strictly speaking to LEOs - obviously the .mil has M16s and M4s.
Do you get one? Do you train with it on FA frequently? (For more than just muzzle flash full TikTok videos?)
I presume most local/state agencies which issue semi autos allow for modifications and taking it home but FAs?
There are departments that have them, and there are special units and situations that use them, but even in the military true “full auto” is rarely used. Final protective fires is the only situation I’ve ever encountered where true “hold the trigger down and burn barrels” was used and appropriate.
Even with a M249/ M240/M2HB you almost always use burst fire.
Even on a tank where the weapon is stabilized and ammo isn’t an issue, burning the lands out of barrels or bending them is pointless. As an experiment on my last tank crew we took a DXed M240 barrel and fired until it began to bend. Only took about 300 rounds cyclic before it happened. It was an old shot out barrel so it may have gone a bit quicker than a new one, but it still doesn’t take much.
can see how police could benefit from full auto since they don't have any dedicated squad weapons.
In law enforcement work bursts may occasionally be useful, but single shots are the rule and full auto is worse than useless. You have to fire each round at an identified, legitimate target that warrants deadly force snd that has a clear backstop. You have to be able to articulate after the fact why you fired each round, what the target was and why it was a threat. You are liable for every round, where it goes and what it hits. You can’t do that on rock-and-roll. You can’t usually use suppressive fire. You can’t fire into an area or at the other guy’s muzzle flash.
There are 3 priorities in a law enforcement gunfight:
1. ID your target and back stop.
2. Don’t hit the wrong target.
3. Hit the right target.
Scopes, red dots and weapon lights are primarily to help you achieve 1 and 2.
Burst fire usually, snd full auto always, is detrimental to 1 and 2.
There are departments that have them, and there are special units and situations that use them, but even in the military true “full auto” is rarely used. Final protective fires is the only situation I’ve ever encountered where true “hold the trigger down and burn barrels” was used and appropriate.
Even with a M249/ M240/M2HB you almost always use burst fire.
Even on a tank where the weapon is stabilized and ammo isn’t an issue, burning the lands out of barrels or bending them is pointless. As an experiment on my last tank crew we took a DXed M240 barrel and fired until it began to bend. Only took about 300 rounds cyclic before it happened. It was an old shot out barrel so it may have gone a bit quicker than a new one, but it still doesn’t take much.
In law enforcement work bursts may occasionally be useful, but single shots are the rule and full auto is worse than useless. You have to fire each round at an identified, legitimate target that warrants deadly force snd that has a clear backstop. You have to be able to articulate after the fact why you fired each round, what the target was and why it was a threat. You are liable for every round, where it goes and what it hits. You can’t do that on rock-and-roll. You can’t usually use suppressive fire. You can’t fire into an area or at the other guy’s muzzle flash.
There are 3 priorities in a law enforcement gunfight:
1. ID your target and back stop.
2. Don’t hit the wrong target.
3. Hit the right target.
Scopes, red dots and weapon lights are primarily to help you achieve 1 and 2.
Burst fire usually, snd full auto always, is detrimental to 1 and 2.
I never meant to imply they should mag dump. I don't think that's ever productive.
Damn near 100% of the people we faced used full auto pretty much most of the time if not all the time. They made noise but had a terrible hit ratio. In responce we sent back accurate fire in semi auto.
May all my enemies use full auto 100% of the time.
May the cops around me never even have access to FA.
Damn near 100% of the people we faced used full auto pretty much most of the time if not all the time. They made noise but had a terrible hit ratio. In responce we sent back accurate fire in semi auto.
May all my enemies use full auto 100% of the time.
May the cops around me never even have access to FA.
Agree 100%.
tanksoldier
08-18-21, 13:02
I never meant to imply they should mag dump. I don't think that's ever productive.
You asked about "full auto".
The answer is: In law enforcement, never used. In military, almost never used.
You asked about "full auto".
The answer is: In law enforcement, never used. In military, almost never used.
Full auto doesn't mean mag dump, I wasn't the one who asked, and both of those statements are untrue. The military not only uses it, but machine guns rack up I believe it's four times as many enemy kills as rifles. The reason they never use their rifles on full auto is because they have squad automatic weapons built to handle the rigors of sustained automatic bursts, like an open bolt, heavy quick change barrels, etc.
And we saw with the OHP how automatic rifles can be used effectively by patrol officers working in a team.
Put the stick down brah, the horse is dead.
Back in the 1990's when I was in CID/NARC, I was we were issued Ruger AC 556. Folding stock and longer barrel, FA and 3 shot burst capable.
IF anything but a Ruger OEM 20/30 rnd mag was used it jammed. Even on the OEM 40's didn't feed right. Ruger OEM factory Folder
This pic, the one on the bottom in the photo. I carried it for about 10 years until they got rid of all FA weapons except an UZI and American AR180 22LR suppressed. Went to Armalight AR-15, 20 inch barrel and A2 stock, non removable carry handle.
Some IDIOT ordered them with the MATCH 2 stage trigger. My first encounter with AR's.
66318
Nearly all USBP rifles are Colt M4A1 with the happy switch…most in original configuration (14.5” and some 11.5” barrels) but the uppers are being replaced with BCM uppers with a 9” MCMR and 11.5” or 14.5” BFH barrels (I’ve heard some 16” too but haven’t seen one) as a part of a modernization program that started a couple years ago. There are some semis in the inventory as well but primarily our rifles are full auto capable.
Nearly all USBP rifles are Colt M4A1 with the happy switch…most in original configuration (14.5” and some 11.5” barrels) but the uppers are being replaced with BCM uppers with a 9” MCMR and 11.5” or 14.5” BFH barrels (I’ve heard some 16” too but haven’t seen one) as a part of a modernization program that started a couple years ago. There are some semis in the inventory as well but primarily our rifles are full auto capable.
Replacing TDP parts with commercial parts, despite having full access to the real thing, in any quantity they want, for less money. Lord save us from our bureaucrats.:fie:
Replacing TDP parts with commercial parts, despite having full access to the real thing, in any quantity they want, for less money. Lord save us from our bureaucrats.:fie:
In general I agree with you but the BP did it right, this time. The rebuilt FA 14.5s and 11.5s seem to be working out well. None of mine have ever had a malfunction that wasn't mag-related. While most of the guys who look at the dirt don't get any extra training with their duty rifles, the special guys do, and I have not heard anything bad about our rebuilds.
Side note, at another station we had some semi-auto 6921s that had Geissele triggers and hand-me-down Leupold 3-9x scopes. We were allowed to check them out on our own time and train with them, and were issued extra Gold Dot for this purpose. That was an excellent program and I wish it still existed.
Our qual features full-auto but almost none of the guys who take an M4 to the field use it, preferring double and triple taps up close.
In general I agree with you but the BP did it right, this time. The rebuilt FA 14.5s and 11.5s seem to be working out well. None of mine have ever had a malfunction that wasn't mag-related. While most of the guys who look at the dirt don't get any extra training with their duty rifles, the special guys do, and I have not heard anything bad about our rebuilds.
Side note, at another station we had some semi-auto 6921s that had Geissele triggers and hand-me-down Leupold 3-9x scopes. We were allowed to check them out on our own time and train with them, and were issued extra Gold Dot for this purpose. That was an excellent program and I wish it still existed.
Our qual features full-auto but almost none of the guys who take an M4 to the field use it, preferring double and triple taps up close.
That's the Stoner system at work. I'm not saying BCM is bad by any means, but Colt has a big edge on them (and most everyone else for that matter) for about half the price. More durable bolts and more durable, more accurate barrels. Especially with the ranges they're looking at out there in the desert, I would want that extra precision you get with the Colt barrels.
As for the full auto course, I could see that being especially cheap insurance for small teams out there alone in the desert. If they meet up with some cartel people by accident I would personally feel better if someone were laying down covering fire.
~Snip~
Colt has a big edge on them (and most everyone else for that matter) for about half the price. More durable bolts and more durable, more accurate barrels.
Where is the data that shows Colt bolts and barrels are more durable than BCM? Both companies' bolts are made from the same materials using the same processes. Both have rigorous QC measures in place. I'm very curious about the data showing where button rifled barrels (Colt) are more durable than hammer forged (BCM).
Not arguing about accuracy - Colt builds accurate barrels.
Andy
gunnerblue
09-13-21, 19:16
That's the Stoner system at work. I'm not saying BCM is bad by any means, but Colt has a big edge on them (and most everyone else for that matter) for about half the price. More durable bolts and more durable, more accurate barrels. Especially with the ranges they're looking at out there in the desert, I would want that extra precision you get with the Colt barrels.
As for the full auto course, I could see that being especially cheap insurance for small teams out there alone in the desert. If they meet up with some cartel people by accident I would personally feel better if someone were laying down covering fire.
I have seen no degrade in accuracy with the BCM uppers vs. Colt. As far as durability is concerned, BCM is hammer-forged vs button-rifled for Colt. Hammer forging is widely acknowledged as being superior for long term use.
As far as FA in a team setting is concerned, fwiw, BPA's generally work alone
Where is the data that shows Colt bolts and barrels are more durable than BCM? Both companies' bolts are made from the same materials using the same processes. Both have rigorous QC measures in place. I'm very curious about the data showing where button rifled barrels (Colt) are more durable than hammer forged (BCM).
Not arguing about accuracy - Colt builds accurate barrels.
Andy
TDP magic sauce man. It's the cumulative secret knowledge that's the result of 70 years of building ARs. Millions of them, and each one firing tens of thousands of rounds. I hate to even admit it because Colt is such a unionized hot mess that hasn't been true to its civilian customers, but they know how to build a good bolt and barrel. To my knowledge, they're still the sole source of bolts for the Mk18 to this day.
I have seen no degrade in accuracy with the BCM uppers vs. Colt. As far as durability is concerned, BCM is hammer-forged vs button-rifled for Colt. Hammer forging is widely acknowledged as being superior for long term use.
As far as FA in a team setting is concerned, fwiw, BPA's generally work alone
I've seen that claim made numerous times, but I suspect it's more marketing than anything. Colt's barrels shoot better than any chrome lined barrel should, and they're durable to boot.
TDP magic sauce man. It's the cumulative secret knowledge that's the result of 70 years of building ARs. Millions of them, and each one firing tens of thousands of rounds. I hate to even admit it because Colt is such a unionized hot mess that hasn't been true to its civilian customers, but they know how to build a good bolt and barrel. To my knowledge, they're still the sole source of bolts for the Mk18 to this day.
The TDP cat has been out of the bag for years.
Not arguing that Colt cannot build a good (even great) bolt and barrel, but I do not believe the testing data exists that will demonstrate a Colt bolt is more durable than a BCM.
As Gunnerblue pointed out, there is no question HF barrels outlast button rifled barrels.
Andy
WillieThom
09-13-21, 21:30
But…. But…. COLT!!
WillieThom
09-13-21, 21:30
!!TLOC ….tuB ….tuB
The TDP cat has been out of the bag for years.
Not arguing that Colt cannot build a good (even great) bolt and barrel, but I do not believe the testing data exists that will demonstrate a Colt bolt is more durable than a BCM.
As Gunnerblue pointed out, there is no question HF barrels outlast button rifled barrels.
Andy
I don't know what you mean by the TDP cat being out of the bag. The only companies who have seen it are contractors, and if they got caught selling contract parts on the commercial market without giving Colt its cut they would be sued into oblivion. Not only that, but they simply don't go to the trouble. It's too much work and expense to go through all that for a rifle that's going to be shot one time and then sit in a safe for ten to twenty years before being sold and the process starting over again. The average AR won't see 100 rounds in as many years.
TDP was included in a solicitation https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Colt-M4-Data-Rights-The-Individual-Carbine-Competition-06942/
Contract overruns are sold all the time - see Minnies Machine Company "SOCOM" barrels https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?223374-MMC-Armory-(Minnies-Machine-Company)-Gov-Contract-14-5%94-Socom-Barrels
We are thread drifting hard, myself included. FWIW, I can actually get behind the BP officers running select fire carbines.
Andy
TDP was included in a solicitation https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Colt-M4-Data-Rights-The-Individual-Carbine-Competition-06942/
Contract overruns are sold all the time - see Minnies Machine Company "SOCOM" barrels https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?223374-MMC-Armory-(Minnies-Machine-Company)-Gov-Contract-14-5%94-Socom-Barrels
We are thread drifting hard, myself included. FWIW, I can actually get behind the BP officers running select fire carbines.
Andy
For sure. Not politically, but definitely from a practical perspective.
Definitely aware that contract parts get sold from time to time, but it's not the norm, and you never know if those are the rejects that didn't make the cut (which I think is highly likely).
I'm not saying BCM is bad, mind you, just that it's an arguably inferior product at twice the cost. Or at best, a virtually identical product at twice the cost.
For sure. Not politically, but definitely from a practical perspective.
Definitely aware that contract parts get sold from time to time, but it's not the norm, and you never know if those are the rejects that didn't make the cut (which I think is highly likely).
I'm not saying BCM is bad, mind you, just that it's an arguably inferior product at twice the cost. Or at best, a virtually identical product at twice the cost.
I am in the equal quality, higher cost camp.
Andy
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