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chamber143

08-13-21, 11:50

mRad

08-13-21, 13:35

Two different bullets. Data cannot be used interchangeably.

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chamber143

08-13-21, 13:39

Two different bullets. Data cannot be used interchangeably.

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Right I get that they are two different bullets but I am wondering why if I check all the different powders for both bullets the data for all the powders are almost identical for charge and velocity as well as pressure except for the hs6.

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markm

08-13-21, 14:07

Is there standard bbl lengths for pistol velocity data?

I really think you need to work your own load up with a chrono. Using your barrel, your lot of powder and your bullets. Mileage varies greatly between powder lots and actual loading.

223to45

08-13-21, 22:35

Well Hodgdon shows a 90gr Gold Dot at 8.2, at 1413 ft/s. With HS-6. .

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gaijin

08-14-21, 10:19

HS6 is Relatively slow compared to a lot of pistol powders.
Look at a burn rate chart and compare it to other common pistol powders.
It is frequently used in “Major 9” loads in USPSA competition that are way over SAAMI pressures for 9mm.

wil

08-15-21, 11:06

I am working up a 90 gr 9mm bullet and was stumped by something. It is a Hornady 90 gr xtp and according to Hornady the max charge is 7.2 with hs6 at 1250 fps. Sierra has a listing for a 90 gr bullet at a max of 8.2 gr of hs6 at 1400 fps. Whats strange is the most of the other powders match pretty well with charges and velocity between the two manuals but Sierra pushes about another 150 fps for a 90 gr bullet. Is it fair to say I can work up to close to the 8.2 gr with the Hornady bullet? What sorts of pressure signs should I be looking for?

watch the primer for extrusion and firing pin cratering. Also check the extractor ring for a claw mark. If the extractor claw is starting to deform the extractor ring, it's an indication of extremely high pressure.

If you see extrusion on the primer, the round shoulder flattens out and starts flowing over the edge of the primer cup in the brass........STOP, the load is too hot.

my hornady book has hs-6 at 7.7 grains on a 90 grain bullet gives 1300 fps. (4th edition book)

Speer book has hs-6 at 8.2 max on a 115 gr gives 1316 fps. I have run this load in a BHP and Sten Mkll on full-auto and neither gun had any complaints.

I'd start at 6.5 grains and come up very slowly and keep an eye on things. Come up a 1/4 grain at a time and see how things look.

DG23

08-15-21, 11:42

watch the primer for extrusion and firing pin cratering. Also check the extractor ring for a claw mark. If the extractor claw is starting to deform the extractor ring, it's an indication of extremely high pressure.

If you see extrusion on the primer, the round shoulder flattens out and starts flowing over the edge of the primer cup in the brass........STOP, the load is too hot.

Straight wall pistol brass does not 'read' like rifle brass will. You are better off reading tea leaves to determine over pressure.

Want to prove it to yourself? Trim a piece of 9mm brass a tiny bit short and then fire it with a known to be 'safe' loading and inspect the primer / brass. Compare to the same loading fired with brass that actually fits the chamber properly and chime back in...

Mouse fart loadings will flatten the hell out of primers in my 460 Rowland chamber IF the brass is short. (Think 45ACP brass fired in a longer 460 chamber)

Seeing as how most 9mm brass is going to be a tiny bit 'short' anyway and mixed brass will likely be all over the map in length - Visual 'signs' of pressure are very unlikely to be the same from one piece of brass to the next even if the loading / charge weight remains exactly the same.

Don't just take my word for it - Trim you down a few pieces of brass and give it a go for yourself.

gaijin

08-15-21, 11:57

^^ 9mm is a tapered case.
Don’t disagree with your statement of difficulty in reading pressure sign with pistol ammo, at least until you reach primer flow/crater pressures.

mRad

08-15-21, 11:59

It’s silly to want to run up your 9mm loads to pressure anyway.

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DG23

08-15-21, 12:18

It’s silly to want to run up your 9mm loads to pressure anyway.

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Much more safe / forgiving with the slower powders.

mRad

08-15-21, 12:28

Much more safe / forgiving with the slower powders.

I prefer sport pistol or N320; I’ll run it up to power factor with the bullet then tune based on the sights and recoil.

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kerplode

08-15-21, 17:15

What sorts of pressure signs should I be looking for?

There are no reliable "pressure signs" for pistol cartridges. Hell, "pressure signs" are not really all that reliable for rifles either. By the time you're flattening/cratering primers etc, you're way over.

Buy a chronograph and measure velocity instead...It's a much more accurate indicator.

And as others have mentioned, you really can't just interchange data for bullets of the same weight. Always work up.

chamber143

08-15-21, 17:19

There are no reliable "pressure signs" for pistol cartridges. Hell, "pressure signs" are not really all that reliable for rifles either. By the time you're flattening/cratering primers etc, you're way over.

Buy a chronograph and measure velocity instead...It's a much more accurate indicator.

And as others have mentioned, you really can't just interchange data for bullets of the same weight. Always work up.

I have a chrono. I get what you guys are saying, I am not sure I am being clear. The minimum and maximum are almost identical as well as velocities for 15 different powders except for the hs6 and it’s a large variance. I will build up as I always do as I don’t like getting near max but what makes the hs6 so different in these two bullets when every other powder for these two bullets is almost identical.

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gaijin

08-15-21, 20:15

I would hazard a guess that one of the two bullets has more bearing surface, which increases chamber pressure.
One of them may be larger in diameter as well; .355”/.356”/.357”.

wil

08-16-21, 01:07

Straight wall pistol brass does not 'read' like rifle brass will. You are better off reading tea leaves to determine over pressure.

Want to prove it to yourself? Trim a piece of 9mm brass a tiny bit short and then fire it with a known to be 'safe' loading and inspect the primer / brass. Compare to the same loading fired with brass that actually fits the chamber properly and chime back in...

Mouse fart loadings will flatten the hell out of primers in my 460 Rowland chamber IF the brass is short. (Think 45ACP brass fired in a longer 460 chamber)

Seeing as how most 9mm brass is going to be a tiny bit 'short' anyway and mixed brass will likely be all over the map in length - Visual 'signs' of pressure are very unlikely to be the same from one piece of brass to the next even if the loading / charge weight remains exactly the same.

Don't just take my word for it - Trim you down a few pieces of brass and give it a go for yourself.

Ummm.......no. inspecting your brass and trimming it a proper length, which is part & parcel to proper reloading procedures, you'll find pressure signs are accurate and consistent.

Also known safe loads are determined with brass properly trimmed and sized, not a screw-up on reloading procedures or a lack of attention to detail in regards proper procedures. Brass trimmed short is a screw-up and of course it will raise pressure, it is a given amount of gas pressure within a specified volume, reduce the volume and pressure goes up, this is in accordance with the laws of physics.

Neither have I found 9mm brass to be 'short' as you put it. Why would factories deliberately put out ammunition that does not conform to specs? They dont.

As for reading pressure signs on brass, my experience does not agree with your opinion. Pressure within brass is pressure within brass, it behaves the same owing to it's actions are determined by the laws of physic. There are external physical manifestations such as the ones I mentioned.
And brass improperly prepared, ie: a screw-up which according to your logic is a valid argument, will show higher pressure signs, an indication a reloader should be paying attention to.

DG23

08-16-21, 06:42

Ummm.......no. inspecting your brass and trimming it a proper length, which is part & parcel to proper reloading procedures, you'll find pressure signs are accurate and consistent.

Also known safe loads are determined with brass properly trimmed and sized, not a screw-up on reloading procedures or a lack of attention to detail in regards proper procedures. Brass trimmed short is a screw-up and of course it will raise pressure, it is a given amount of gas pressure within a specified volume, reduce the volume and pressure goes up, this is in accordance with the laws of physics.

Neither have I found 9mm brass to be 'short' as you put it. Why would factories deliberately put out ammunition that does not conform to specs? They dont.

You just showed how smart you really are not...

Chime back in with your 9mm chamber length measurements and follow up with your brass lengths.

Hint: Factory new 9mm brass is going to be short so that it fits anything...

Also - Short brass does not do squat for chamber pressure OR your internal volume of the brass if the COAL remains the same.

You got a lot more learning about reloading to do before giving anyone advice. LOL! :)

Gave me a good laugh this morning thinking about you (attempting to) trim 9mm brass 'as part & parcel to proper reloading procedures'. :)

mRad

08-16-21, 08:41

Lol trimming 9mm brass.

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wil

08-16-21, 10:26

You just showed how smart you really are not...

Chime back in with your 9mm chamber length measurements and follow up with your brass lengths.

Hint: Factory new 9mm brass is going to be short so that it fits anything...

Also - Short brass does not do squat for chamber pressure OR your internal volume of the brass if the COAL remains the same.

You got a lot more learning about reloading to do before giving anyone advice. LOL! :)

Gave me a good laugh this morning thinking about you (attempting to) trim 9mm brass 'as part & parcel to proper reloading procedures'. :)

per speer reloading manual number 11 pg 386: brass length specified 0.754"

per hornady reloading manual 4th edition pg 543: 0.754"

As for case length and pressure, you should read about the laws of physics and thermodynamics in regards to pressure and volume, you'll learn something.......judging from the arrogant attitude displayed by your posting and the outright ignorance contained regarding what you've posted I have my doubts about that however I will offer you to read and learn.

DG23

08-16-21, 22:22

per speer reloading manual number 11 pg 386: brass length specified 0.754"

per hornady reloading manual 4th edition pg 543: 0.754"

As for case length and pressure, you should read about the laws of physics and thermodynamics in regards to pressure and volume, you'll learn something.......judging from the arrogant attitude displayed by your posting and the outright ignorance contained regarding what you've posted I have my doubts about that however I will offer you to read and learn.

An example:

https://i.imgur.com/qQOCB1c.jpg

Both rounds here (not 9mm rounds obviously) are loaded to a COAL of 1.230 (tip of the bullet to the base of the brass), and both have the same exact bullet seated in them. For the sake of this discussion there is zero difference in the case capacity below the bullets in those rounds. If I use the same exact weight of powder charge in each the pressure produced will be nearly the same providing they are fired in the same chamber. The piece of 'short' brass is not going to somehow make the same exact (weight of) powder charge generate more pressure just because there is less brass up top holding the bullet in place. If fired over a chronograph they are going to be pretty much the same speed.

Your case length has nothing to do with your case capacity if the COAL (and bullet) is the same.

When firing both of those rounds (same exact everything with the exception of the case length) in the same chamber - The primers will NOT look the same after lighting them off.

Your tea leaves would be telling you stuff that was simply not true... :)

Agree with you that Speer 11 is a good book to have around. :)

https://i.imgur.com/4s7VlJC.jpg

jsbhike

08-22-21, 14:01

I have a chrono. I get what you guys are saying, I am not sure I am being clear. The minimum and maximum are almost identical as well as velocities for 15 different powders except for the hs6 and it’s a large variance. I will build up as I always do as I don’t like getting near max but what makes the hs6 so different in these two bullets when every other powder for these two bullets is almost identical.

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I get what you are saying, but no idea why it is that way.

While trying to work around the lack of powder, something I noticed in rifle loads is sometimes powders are listed for a given cartridge, but not for a nearly identical cartridge. Another thing I have with various parent/child cases, some will use the same powder, but one case(no rhyme or reason on parent or necked up/down) may not.

1 company's loads may be close to all the others, but they may be the only 1 to use a certain powder.
.

sjoliat

08-25-21, 16:23

chamber143

08-30-21, 16:22

I wonder if it's a typo.
Entering thousands of numbers, would be pretty easy to hit the 7 instead of the 8. Depending on where it happened (if that's what happened at all) it might be throughout Hornady's system that way with no way to verify.
Just a thought.

Could be. I always work up loads and wasn’t looking for short cut but I was just very curious about this. I always look at multiple books and research for hours before I start a load but I just found this one particular load strange.

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s4s4u

09-08-21, 22:51

Curious as to why you want to load such a light bullet in 9mm.

chamber143

09-15-21, 09:31

Curious as to why you want to load such a light bullet in 9mm.

To do some testing with it. I read some info about the initial shock to the central nervous system being as if not more important to threat than weight. And obviously 13-1400 FPS vs the 1050 from a 124 is faster.

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s4s4u

09-15-21, 09:46

To do some testing with it. I read some info about the initial shock to the central nervous system being as if not more important to threat than weight. And obviously 13-1400 FPS vs the 1050 from a 124 is faster.

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Please share your findings.

signal4l

09-15-21, 13:34

I've been hand loading for almost 30 years. Not claiming to be an expert. I've never trimmed a 9 mm case. I have no intentions of ever doing so.

If you want to move a light bullet very fast try AA7.

This is the best website I have found for advice on 9 m m loading

http://www.natoreloading.com/aa7/

DG23

09-15-21, 17:34