View Full Version : And your COVID booster shot (9/21)
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-16-21, 22:56
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/covid-19-booster-shots-biden-administration/index.html
Talk about doubling down on dumb. Sounds like they aren’t even going to try to sell it by saying that they’ve tweaked it for the newest variance. Just going to double down and the vaccine again. Oh yeah I really don’t know what to say. I’ve been pro vaccine, but they are losing me at this point.
They are saying that the vaccination only gives you protection for eight months. I’m sure they’ll come out now and see if you get a booster you’re good for maybe even life, but the caveat is that the next variant will need another vaccination.
How do they think people are going to get the booster shot when they can’t get a third of the country to get it at all.
Now you’re saying I’m gonna have to get vaccinated more often I change the oil in my car? And they call that successful? Frankly since I’m vaccinated I’d rather go out and get Delta and add some natural immunity.
BoringGuy45
08-16-21, 23:05
Apparently they've never heard of a titer. How about before demanding a third shot, they give those of us who got the two shots a chance to see just what the antibodies in our system look like before we're forced to make that decision?
Just “follow the science” guys. No reason to question any of this.
I mean, it passes the smell test-
A “vaccine” so good you have to get it to live, but you’ve got to pressure other people who don’t want it to get it or you are at risk, even though you are vaccinated…
A “vaccine” so good that it is “free” to you and everyone is trying to shame you into getting it or you’re hurting others- greater good BS- meanwhile you are footing the bill as the tax payer to pay big pharma hundreds of billions of dollars- whom have terrible, terrible track records mind you, and are completely insulated from liability for hurting and killing people with said vaccine…
A “vaccine” so good, that it’s being sold as better than natural antibodies, you know- the ones your body custom tailors specifically for you as an individual to fight the virus with…
A “vaccine” so good, that you should still wear a mask after getting two doses, scratch that- two masks, when you’re inside with other people, just to be safe.
A “vaccine” so damn good that people with the most minimal risk from COVID 19 are being targeted to take it- children and the side effects they are having are brushed off as not too concerning.
A “vaccine” so good, that if you post anything negative about it on social media it’s got to be censored for fear that it will influence people’s opinion…
A “vaccine” so good, that you just need to give up a little more liberty, and you’ll be “safe”…
This shit is just insane.
Get your booster shot, wear your face diaper, close your business, follow the mandates, stay in line and bow down and bend over to the authority of the State- I mean it’s science guys!
Diamondback
08-16-21, 23:53
Vaxholery like this is how you get more skeptics...
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-17-21, 01:35
At this point, being vaxed, I'd rather actively go out and get the delta variant and get some natural immunity rather than double down on a vax that they are admitting doesn't work.
Between the numbers and data that came out of India on Delta, and the fact that Texas is 'overwhelmed' because of illegal immigrants, they have lost me. And if they have lost me, they have lost a lot of people. I bet the booster is under 40%. Hell, I may skip the regular flu shot that I've gotten for at least 15 years straight.
Same assholes, from the same schools, from the same social circles told us that Kabul safe are ones running the national health care debacle.
I don't doubt that some states block the booster.
Business_Casual
08-17-21, 06:59
This bio security state is going to include an end-run on the 2nd. I haven’t figured it out yet, but I am trying.
Averageman
08-17-21, 07:50
A couple of days ago the WHO said no to third vaccines. They wanted everyone to get the first two, before this was rolled out..
Not that I am actually going to take that voodoo nonsense, but there it was plain as day, Follow the who, Follow the Science, Follow the AMA, followfauci, followthis, followthat!
It's the Science damn you !
This bio security state is going to include an end-run on the 2nd. I haven’t figured it out yet, but I am trying.The same way they are doing the 1st. Through private business. And we all (majority) will end up getting the vaccine anyway through the same process. One way or another, sooner or later you'll need to to do something. Government isn't going to force you they'll just change everything around you.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/politics/covid-19-booster-shots-biden-administration/index.html
Talk about doubling down on dumb. Sounds like they aren’t even going to try to sell it by saying that they’ve tweaked it for the newest variance. Just going to double down and the vaccine again. Oh yeah I really don’t know what to say. I’ve been pro vaccine, but they are losing me at this point.
They are saying that the vaccination only gives you protection for eight months. I’m sure they’ll come out now and see if you get a booster you’re good for maybe even life, but the caveat is that the next variant will need another vaccination.
How do they think people are going to get the booster shot when they can’t get a third of the country to get it at all.
Now you’re saying I’m gonna have to get vaccinated more often I change the oil in my car? And they call that successful? Frankly since I’m vaccinated I’d rather go out and get Delta and add some natural immunity.
Whether I agree with or not, I don't have an issues understanding it per se. Im vaccinated, recommend anyone who can should be, but we will not vaccine our way out of this.
Having said that, if people simply look at it similar to the flu, vs say, polio, it's simple enough to understand the reality of it.
If people think, or were lead to believe, the vaccines for this virus was a one and done thing, they're not paying attention. Like the flu, variants develop, they try to track it, and guess which variant will dominate, and offer a flu shot. If they guess right, shot is highly effective. If they guess wrong, it's better than nothing, but much less effective.
This is not a perfect analogy, but reality is: covid is never going away, it will be similar to the flu in that it will be part of the viral yearly load we all face, along with colds and flu, and a booster will be required for full resistance, just like the flu, especially important for immunocompromised.
Currently, the vaccines that exist appear highly protective of the variants we are seeing for serious complications and deaths (vs infections...), so vaccines targeting specific variants may not be warranted in the way it is for the flu, but that may change too.
One problem all along has been the very use of the term "vaccine" for the covid shot, as it's not a vaccine in the commonly used term that you get your shot, and that's it for the rest of your life more or less. I think that was a major mistake in the communication dissemination from the start, which they have done a terrible job of from minute one.
I'm neither surprised nor lost "faith" in the vaccines a tool in the tool box dealing with covid by these recs and fully expected it. I continue to be disappointed that they think we can vaccinate our way out of this vs taking a more broad spectrum approach, but they don't do that for things that kill FAR more than covid, so what do we expect?
At this point, being vaxed, I'd rather actively go out and get the delta variant and get some natural immunity rather than double down on a vax that they are admitting doesn't work.
Between the numbers and data that came out of India on Delta, and the fact that Texas is 'overwhelmed' because of illegal immigrants, they have lost me. And if they have lost me, they have lost a lot of people. I bet the booster is under 40%. Hell, I may skip the regular flu shot that I've gotten for at least 15 years straight.
Same assholes, from the same schools, from the same social circles told us that Kabul safe are ones running the national health care debacle.
I don't doubt that some states block the booster.
If you have gotten regular flu shots, which are designed to counter a variant of the same virus that passes through every year, why are you having difficulty understanding the rec that's developing for covid? Covid vaccines do work and work (so far) well against the variants (to a lesser degree than alpha, but still highly effective), but like the flu and flu shot, immunity does not last forever.
If you got the flu last year, are you immune to the variant that comes through next year? No, or maybe, or yes, depending on variables such as how robust your immune response was to that last exposure, your immune competency, how similar the variant is to the prior one (which dictates if your immune system recognizes or not and responds in time to stop replication in large numbers) and so forth. Most likely answer however, from a stasticial and biological POV is, you're not protected from last years flu variant or strain. Unless, you are able/willing to go to a lab, get blood taken, and have tests done that does a full immune panel, looking at anti bodies, if they exist, at what count, etc, etc,.
If you get the flu shot last year, does it protect you from the variant (and or a strain) that shows up this year? See answer above, cuz it's the same.
As you say, you can also say "F it" I will take my chances with this variant of the flu and covid, and chips fall where the they fall.
That then brings us to what really matters here: risk vs benefit of getting the shot vs getting the virus.
That's what matters, and that depends on some other factors, and is it's own discussion. A balanced sane article on what's known and what is not:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medical/does-the-explosion-of-the-delta-variant-mean-we-need-a-new-covid-19-vaccine/ar-AANoeUI
Whiskey_Bravo
08-17-21, 10:48
My wife works for a large health care system here in Texas and is able to see a lot of data including covid numbers. 97% of their current hospitalized covid cases are unvaccinated. They have a total of around 800 hospitalized with covid as of a couple of days ago. Numbers seem to be showing that even though you might still contract covid and or spread it you are less likely to end up in the hospital by a fairly large margin.
My wife works for a large health care system here in Texas and is able to see a lot of data including covid numbers. 97% of their current hospitalized covid cases are unvaccinated. They have a total of around 800 hospitalized with covid as of a couple of days ago. Numbers seem to be showing that even though you might still contract covid and or spread it you are less likely to end up in the hospital by a fairly large margin.
Yes, that is a fact. I listened to a show yesterday with a group of docs from various hospitals where they are seeing fastest rises in hospitalizations, and they are in states with lowest vax rates and those in the ICUs or dead are not vaccinated. One doc from a major hospital in Mississippi said he is seeing younger people, many of whom don't fit the usual profile for ending up in the ICU (known co morbidity and such), 100% of which are not vaccinated in his dept. The others said similar, with a few that were vaccinated, but very few.
Hospitals in some states, those with lowest vax rates, are at capacity or above that. That's boots on the ground front line ER and ICU docs, who are either lying as they have nanno chips in their brains placed by Gates, or that's what's happening, and stats will follow shortly as there's always a lag time there.
This is not rocket science: the vaccines are not terribly effective at preventing infection (30-40%) from the most aggressive/infectious variant, but still very effect (88-90%) at preventing hospitalizations/serious complications/death.
I don't know how to make it any simpler then that.
At this point, being vaxed, I'd rather actively go out and get the delta variant and get some natural immunity rather than double down on a vax that they are admitting doesn't work.
Between the numbers and data that came out of India on Delta, and the fact that Texas is 'overwhelmed' because of illegal immigrants, they have lost me. And if they have lost me, they have lost a lot of people. I bet the booster is under 40%. Hell, I may skip the regular flu shot that I've gotten for at least 15 years straight.
Same assholes, from the same schools, from the same social circles told us that Kabul safe are ones running the national health care debacle.
I don't doubt that some states block the booster.
Why do you keep saying that? Unless you're mentally deficient (i.e. fvcked in the head) you do NOT want to "voluntarily" get this shit. Sure, mathematically you'll be fine, yada yada, whatever. I don't trust how unpredictable this shit is. If that Delta bullet has your name on it you will slowly die despite any and everything they try, unable to breath, and your family will watch it play out.
No thanks. [this is not a commentary supporting a booster instead, just addressing your statement that you've made twice]
Why do you keep saying that? Unless you're mentally deficient (i.e. fvcked in the head) you do NOT want to "voluntarily" get this shit. Sure, mathematically you'll be fine, yada yada, whatever. I don't trust how unpredictable this shit is. If that Delta bullet has your name on it you will slowly die despite any and everything they try, unable to breath, and your family will watch it play out.
No thanks. [this is not a commentary supporting a booster instead, just addressing your statement that you've made twice]
I'll add that he et al will not have to wait too long to find out, as it's not a matter of if but when he et al will be exposed as the infectious rates of Delta all but assures that. As for natural immunity, my friend Bill, a very well known person in the fitness/bodybuilding world, early 50s, in good shape, had diagnosed covid when it came out so assume he was GTG, ended up like so:
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10157830820586607&set=a.25375426606
While he's the worst for sure, I now know a handful people personally who had diagnosed covid when it started, got very ill recently, some ended up in the ICU, some knocked the F out for months. All healthy young/youngish active types.
Dr Z has some good intel and a page I follow/recommend, especially for non scientist types and explains the likely route of covid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRjIuC2eZE
Whiskey_Bravo
08-17-21, 15:43
Yes, that is a fact. I listened to a show yesterday with a group of docs from various hospitals where they are seeing fastest rises in hospitalizations, and they are in states with lowest vax rates and those in the ICUs or dead are not vaccinated. One doc from a major hospital in Mississippi said he is seeing younger people, many of whom don't fit the usual profile for ending up in the ICU (known co morbidity and such), 100% of which are not vaccinated in his dept. The others said similar, with a few that were vaccinated, but very few.
Hospitals in some states, those with lowest vax rates, are at capacity or above that. That's boots on the ground front line ER and ICU docs, who are either lying as they have nanno chips in their brains placed by Gates, or that's what's happening, and stats will follow shortly as there's always a lag time there.
This is not rocket science: the vaccines are not terribly effective at preventing infection (30-40%) from the most aggressive/infectious variant, but still very effect (88-90%) at preventing hospitalizations/serious complications/death.
I don't know how to make it any simpler then that.
Agreed. While I was not happy about getting the vaccine, I have to admit I am glad I did it. My wife is a statistician for them so works with all of their numbers, dashboards, etc. The numbers do not lie. You have a significantly better chance of staying out of the hospital if you have gotten the shot.
Agreed. While I was not happy about getting the vaccine, I have to admit I am glad I did it. My wife is a statistician for them so works with all of their numbers, dashboards, etc. The numbers do not lie. You have a significantly better chance of staying out of the hospital if you have gotten the shot.
Indeed. People who say "It only kills 1%" who will not get the vaccine because 0.00001% have a serious side effect don't do risk/benefit with a wife who can explain that to them :)
Averageman
08-17-21, 18:15
Agreed. While I was not happy about getting the vaccine, I have to admit I am glad I did it. My wife is a statistician for them so works with all of their numbers, dashboards, etc. The numbers do not lie. You have a significantly better chance of staying out of the hospital if you have gotten the shot.
I'm Irish, if we could be killed, exterminated, wiped out, stapled or potentially mutilated, well, after near a nearly a thousand or so years, the English would have figured it out by now.
They Haven't and we are still breeding like horny drunken Irishmen!
F' you vaccine.
No Mask, No Vax, No Problem !
This is not rocket science: the vaccines are not terribly effective at preventing infection (30-40%) from the most aggressive/infectious variant, but still very effect (88-90%) at preventing hospitalizations/serious complications/death.
I don't know how to make it any simpler then that.
Might not die from the Rona but what about side effects from the jabs...
CDC has 'edited' the number of vaccine related deaths by what 50% so far?
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-17-21, 19:01
Why do you keep saying that? Unless you're mentally deficient (i.e. fvcked in the head) you do NOT want to "voluntarily" get this shit. Sure, mathematically you'll be fine, yada yada, whatever. I don't trust how unpredictable this shit is. If that Delta bullet has your name on it you will slowly die despite any and everything they try, unable to breath, and your family will watch it play out.
No thanks. [this is not a commentary supporting a booster instead, just addressing your statement that you've made twice]
I’ve got my shot and my ‘8 month’ timer is ticking. Getting another shot and hoping that it works better this time is the definition of insanity. If they came out and said that the booster was based on Delta and then had a greater chance against that one and its progeny, sure, I’m in. The other thing, is that my comment is somewhat in jest because as someone noted, with an R and high as they say, there is no avoiding this outside of another shut down. Surgical masks and fabric ill worn aren’t protection. Frankly, I think the lack of harder pushes for mask mandates- and people’s wide rejection of masking back up- is the realizing that all this stuff is out of control. We are all going to get Delta, there is pretty much no way around it since the vaccine doesn’t stop it. It is in the South now and they can politicize it, but it will work further north.
I still don’t get the whole rates for vax’d or not vax’d for bad outcomes with Delta. The data out there sucks and it is being politicized. A quarter of a million people coming across the Mexican border with somewhere between 15-40% being positive. Delta ran through India then it stopped. It’s R is so high it burned itself out, with a fraction of the deaths that we have- even when you look at excess mortality.
Agreed. While I was not happy about getting the vaccine, I have to admit I am glad I did it. My wife is a statistician for them so works with all of their numbers, dashboards, etc. The numbers do not lie. You have a significantly better chance of staying out of the hospital if you have gotten the shot.
Of course, I’ve got my shot. Getting another exact same shot, actually a booster to the booster is just crazy. What am I? A Saturn V rocket? Is it actually going to protect me this time? MORE COWBELL!
Everyone is getting this at this rate. Thank God we aren’t as crazy as New Zealand with a lock down over one case. Frankly, if people are worried about a killer variant coming out you need some immunity. So we can all live in fear and uselessly, fraudulently masked up- get your shot and take your chances living your life. They aren’t going to ‘solve’ this problem.
You live in Atlanta, you sweat your ass off in the humidity. You’re a human on planet earth, get your shot and live with the 10:100,000 chance of dying from COVID. That’s just the way that it is.
World’s worst pandemic of a century and we haven’t built one extra hospital. RSV is through the roof with kids and no one is talking about it. We’ve Saran wrapped our kids for two years and considering that we were already keeping them so clean that it was a detriment to developing their immune systems, just wait until this generation gets older and has even less experienced and exposed immune systems than we have. Wonder why India’s numbers don’t look bad? Maybe it’s bad data, maybe its that they have world class immune systems in general.
Don’t think I’m rational? Rational and science went out the window a looong time ago and the govt is the one who called in the hit.
But sure, more of the same. Sounds great.
If you have gotten regular flu shots, which are designed to counter a variant of the same virus that passes through every year, why are you having difficulty understanding the rec that's developing for covid?
Not everybody is as intelligent or logical as you are, Will
My wife works for a large health care system here in Texas and is able to see a lot of data including covid numbers. 97% of their current hospitalized covid cases are unvaccinated.
Facts don't care about their feelings.
You can't win these people over with real world facts, they are too far gone.
Might not die from the Rona but what about side effects from the jabs...
CDC has 'edited' the number of vaccine related deaths by what 50% so far?
I will say again, people that go with "It only kills 1%" who will not get the vaccine because 0.00001% have a serious side effect don't do risk/benefit.
I'm not gonna go down the rabbit hole on that. If you literally think your risk of serious illness and or death is higher from the vaccine than it is from covid, then you do you, and I wish you best of health and luck out there in these crazy times. I mean that with all sincerity. I also suggest other modalities for keeping a strong defense from this virus, vaccinated or not, here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?221763-Covid-19-adjuvant-approaches-etc
Not everybody is as intelligent or logical as you are, Will
I'm not sure on the intelligence aspect, but logical like a Volcan, yup.
Some of this is really just not that complicated.
As for natural immunity...
Why don’t we know more about natural immunity? It seems like there is zero interest in research or even really admitting it exists.
I expect the booster talk is because there is some indication people recently vaccinated are doing better vs delta than those who had been vaccinated earlier. Why wouldn’t they release the data with the recommendation?
Why don’t we know more about natural immunity? It seems like there is zero interest in research or even really admitting it exists.
I expect the booster talk is because there is some indication people recently vaccinated are doing better vs delta than those who had been vaccinated earlier. Why wouldn’t they release the data with the recommendation?
There is no money to be made, nor any control to be gained from natural immunity.
Business_Casual
08-18-21, 05:56
Whether I agree with or not, I don't have an issues understanding it per se. Im vaccinated, recommend anyone who can should be, but we will not vaccine our way out of this.
Having said that, if people simply look at it similar to the flu, vs say, polio, it's simple enough to understand the reality of it.
If people think, or were lead to believe, the vaccines for this virus was a one and done thing, they're not paying attention. Like the flu, variants develop, they try to track it, and guess which variant will dominate, and offer a flu shot. If they guess right, shot is highly effective. If they guess wrong, it's better than nothing, but much less effective.
This is not a perfect analogy, but reality is: covid is never going away, it will be similar to the flu in that it will be part of the viral yearly load we all face, along with colds and flu, and a booster will be required for full resistance, just like the flu, especially important for immunocompromised.
Currently, the vaccines that exist appear highly protective of the variants we are seeing for serious complications and deaths (vs infections...), so vaccines targeting specific variants may not be warranted in the way it is for the flu, but that may change too.
One problem all along has been the very use of the term "vaccine" for the covid shot, as it's not a vaccine in the commonly used term that you get your shot, and that's it for the rest of your life more or less. I think that was a major mistake in the communication dissemination from the start, which they have done a terrible job of from minute one.
I'm neither surprised nor lost "faith" in the vaccines a tool in the tool box dealing with covid by these recs and fully expected it. I continue to be disappointed that they think we can vaccinate our way out of this vs taking a more broad spectrum approach, but they don't do that for things that kill FAR more than covid, so what do we expect?
I don’t think there is a reason to think this will end. Event 201 and SPARS are predicting that.
Links cold on purpose.
“https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/our-work/Center-projects/completed-projects/spars-pandemic-scenario.html”
“https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/about”
The_War_Wagon
08-18-21, 06:08
Just “follow the science” guys. No reason to question any of this.
https://i.imgflip.com/5jz33p.jpg :rolleyes:
Why don’t we know more about natural immunity? It seems like there is zero interest in research or even really admitting it exists.
Too many develop serious illness or death to just say "okay, everybody go catch the virus"
Besides, with a virus this contagious, there is no such thing as it going away because of "natural herd immunity". It doesn't work that way.
Why don’t we know more about natural immunity? It seems like there is zero interest in research or even really admitting it exists.
I expect the booster talk is because there is some indication people recently vaccinated are doing better vs delta than those who had been vaccinated earlier. Why wouldn’t they release the data with the recommendation?
As it applies to people who had diagnosed covid already? Not sure where that's coming from but It's being researched and discussed extensively. Quite a bit is known, some is not, as only time passing will answer some Qs.
If you mean as it applies to what people can and do to have a stronger/healthier immunity that may reduce their likelihood of serious illness and death, per articles/studies I keep posting, yes, they suck at that completely.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-18-21, 08:02
This bio security state is going to include an end-run on the 2nd. I haven’t figured it out yet, but I am trying.
Pretty simple. All you have to do is wait for the Democrat paid research to come out of the CDC saying that there is a epidemic of gun violence. And the CDC can turn around and say that because of the epidemic in violence we’re not selling ammunition or guns for 90 days to help stop the spread. If The CDC has the power to change civil contracts in regards to evictions, its power is limitless. Of course we know that’s not actually True, but the Democrats have gone forward with it even though they know it’s unconstitutional.
Too many develop serious illness or death to just say "okay, everybody go catch the virus"
Besides, with a virus this contagious, there is no such thing as it going away because of "natural herd immunity". It doesn't work that way.
Definitely with the above 30 crowd it doesn’t make sense just to get the Covid. But your second statement about how contagious it is a natural herd immunity is incorrect. If this thing really does spread this fast with an R as high as eight or nine, through a population that has little or no resistance to it, supposedly even with vaccination, it will spread very quickly and that’s how you get herd immunity. It seems to of happened in India. Their case and death rate is almost a perfect spike up and down, and supposedly or 70% have natural signs of infection .
Definitely with the above 30 crowd it doesn’t make sense just to get the Covid. But your second statement about how contagious it is a natural herd immunity is incorrect. If this thing really does spread this fast with an R as high as eight or nine, through a population that has little or no resistance to it, supposedly even with vaccination, it will spread very quickly and that’s how you get herd immunity. It seems to of happened in India. Their case and death rate is almost a perfect spike up and down, and supposedly or 70% have natural signs of infection .
That's not how it works.
India does not have immunity lol, they will continue to have plenty of cases for the foreseeable future.
I don't believe it has an R0 of 8 or 9 anyway, who is saying that?
legumeofterror
08-18-21, 08:28
The way some people on this board just refuse to acknowledge reality is astounding.
Definitely with the above 30 crowd it doesn’t make sense just to get the Covid. But your second statement about how contagious it is a natural herd immunity is incorrect. If this thing really does spread this fast with an R as high as eight or nine, through a population that has little or no resistance to it, supposedly even with vaccination, it will spread very quickly and that’s how you get herd immunity. It seems to of happened in India. Their case and death rate is almost a perfect spike up and down, and supposedly or 70% have natural signs of infection .
The R has been downgraded to 6-7 I believe, but still much higher than alpha. No one is saying you don't achieve heard immunity via natural exposure, it's whether you have the stomach for death toll, and you can bypass that by the use of vaccines. If one wants take the "natural" route of the cycles of death, natural immunity and death, until some equilibrium is reached, that could be done too, hence all prior outbreaks of X respiratory virus that existed pre vaccines and or, improved therapeutic approaches, didn't end the human species, but in several events, took out a good sized % of the population. Vid posted in #15 by Dr Z covers that pretty well actually.
Apparently, some are not willing to go that route this time, and the "F em, it's natural selection and just makes the species stronger" POV, while technically correct, does not sit well with many.
We have overshot the mark by thinking we can just vaccine our way out of this? Yes.
However, to not view vaccines as an essential tool in the tool box is poor science, poor medicine, irresponsible and has become a political/cultural debate for many sadly.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-18-21, 10:33
The R factor I think was in the CDC Provincetown presentation. With an R that high, and susceptible population- really those two are hand-in-hand- you are going to get huge spread, as a strategy or not.
Like I've said. I'm vax'd, all my family is. I wish everyone would have gotten the vaccination, for their own good and for a better chance of getting things back to normal. Delta would probably still spread like it has if we had 70% vax rate, but with less deaths. Maybe they still would have used it as an excuse. Probably, since if you look at actual deaths we don't see a huge impact, yet.
Oct 1st we'll know how all this really means.
I do think that this timing is to try to blunt the bad news from A-stan.
Why don’t we know more about natural immunity? It seems like there is zero interest in research or even really admitting it exists.
I expect the booster talk is because there is some indication people recently vaccinated are doing better vs delta than those who had been vaccinated earlier. Why wouldn’t they release the data with the recommendation?
There’s no funding for science that’s not profitable.
I do think that this timing is to try to blunt the bad news from A-stan.
Yes, I had to sit in a waiting room with cheese "news" on the TV, holy ****ing sht. I knew it was complete woke propaganda but damn...no need to talk about Afghanistan because BREAKING NEWS the booster is recommended booster booster booster how do we get people who are hesitant booster use trusted channels to get through change the narrative gay couple adopting baby BREAKING NEWS 7 bicycle riders were killed by cars in the Bronx in 2020 what do you think about this other definitely-not-white-anchor well I'm glad you brought up infrastructure OH FFS
There’s no funding for science that’s not profitable.
...we already know how "natural herd immunity" works. A lot more people in the hospital, and dead.
Averageman
08-18-21, 11:26
No Mask, No Vax, No Problem.
No Mask, No Vax, No Problem.
Is that like the folks who vote to ban guns, live where guns are effectively banned, won't let their kids use water guns that look like the shape of a gun, ban Nerf in their apartment complex, and No Problem?
Averageman
08-18-21, 12:11
Is that like the folks who vote to ban guns, live where guns are effectively banned, won't let their kids use water guns that look like the shape of a gun, ban Nerf in their apartment complex, and No Problem?
Nope not at all.
I just don't want to do it and you or no one else can make me.
Isn't freedom Wonderful?
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-18-21, 13:20
No Mask, No Vax, No Problem.
Is that like the folks who vote to ban guns, live where guns are effectively banned, won't let their kids use water guns that look like the shape of a gun, ban Nerf in their apartment complex, and No Problem?
18 months into this, and if you are under the age of 50, you have something like a 0.2% of having been killed. So I guess to some people that is acceptable risk, to others; not.
That's like 13 per 100.000 chance. You chance of being murdered is about 5 per 100,000.
Or about the chances being murdered in Springfield, MA; Paterson, NJ or Tulsa, OK. And how many of us spend what kind of resources to CCW, and carrying a gun isn't benign and riskless.
Just thinking about it in different ways.
As it applies to people who had diagnosed covid already?
Yes.
Are people who had covid last year more/same/less protected than vaccinated against delta?
Are people who had covid and then got the vaccine more/same/less protected than people who did not get vaccinated after?
Are people who get delta more protected against it?
Adrenaline_6
08-18-21, 15:35
...and the fatality rate per 100,000 licensed drivers is at @16. Yet the same dickwads who push people to get vaccinated and think the ones who don't are stupid, get into their cars and drive every single day and think nothing of it. Morons.
Yes.
Are people who had covid last year more/same/less protected than vaccinated against delta?
Less: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RWGh19yTXw&t=8s
Data continues to mount, natural immunity to alpha does not translate well to Delta, and the vaccines still highly effective (88-90%) effective for preventing hospitalizations and death (what really matters), only 30-40% effective for preventing infection. Hence why it's recommended people get at least one shot of the 2 shot protocols if one has had alpha. I know personally know a handful of people who had diagnosed alpha last year, got quite ill with delta. If you have been following threads, I posted examples.
Are people who had covid and then got the vaccine more/same/less protected than people who did not get vaccinated after?
If exposed to alpha variant, yes, approx same protection. If alpha, then Delta, no. That's again why those who had covid last year or so, thinking they are GTG, are simply not. Why is there say a yearly flu shot? It's because the immunity to the flu to developed and or obtained from vaccine does not protect you from the others that come along each flu season, thanx yet, again, to China, who has been dumping their viral WMDs on the world for at least 100 years, some worse than others, no lab leaks needed. This one, looking almost a lock for coming from the lab, with a strong possibility it has been modified to infect humans, well, worse than some. But, it should not be all that surprising natural immunity from getting one variant will not extend to all others, and for Delta, so far, not good. Watch vid above.
Are people who get delta more protected against it?
Not sure exposure to Delta has been through a population to be sure, but I will take the guess and say very likley yes. You get it, you developed anti bodies to fight it (and you'd be dead if that didn't happen...), and will have natural immunity to Delta.
The only real Q is, how long will it last and does it extend to other variants that already exist and or those that will follow?
That's also why I have said, will repeat: I'm vaccinated, I recommend all others do same if they can, and we will not vaccinate our way out of this.
I hope that answers ye Qs.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-18-21, 16:23
Data continues to mount, natural immunity to alpha does not translate well to Delta, and the vaccines still highly effective (88-90%) effective for preventing hospitalizations and death (what really matters), only 30-40% effective for preventing infection. Hence why it's recommended people get at least one shot of the 2 shot protocols if one has had alpha. I know personally know a handful of people who had diagnosed alpha last year, got quite ill with delta. If you have been following threads, I posted examples.
I throw flags on this. The vaccine is based on what, alpha or the genetics from maybe something pre-alpha- and then focused on the spike protein. Natural immunity probably is using that plus other bits of the virus. So you got the vaccines focused on one thing, and natural immunity probably based on that plus different parts. And the part of the virus that are changing - the spike proteins and how they perform- that's why Delta is so catchy.
Now maybe some people that had COVID had weak infections and their immune system came in with a weak response and they are more susceptible.
I just don't trust the powers that be that say natural immunity sucks- here is a vaccine it's awesome, but it only lasts until we get into an international political crisis, and now you need to go to the doc more often than you change your car's oil. And we are just giving you more of the same stuff that we've given you before- and stay with the version that isn't working for you, don't switch to the other one.
So we are going to triple down on this path instead of at least half vaccinating 200,000,000 around the world. It seems that Delta does a pretty steep inverted V curve, so get this up and running before DElta peters out...
I knew those F****rs were up to something when they had four lines on that vax card.
Nope not at all.
I just don't want to do it and you or no one else can make me.
Isn't freedom Wonderful?
Well, freedom isn't truly the operative word, but yes, it is.
I never indicated that anybody should or should not do anything.
It's just that, when the person's reasons for not are false, and they are shouting from the rooftops about their false reasons, it's pretty easy to point it out.
...and, to use an analogy people here likely understand, a sample size of 1 not yet having a problem as a result of their choice proves pretty much nothing. Just sayin'
18 months into this, and if you are under the age of 50, you have something like a 0.2% of having been killed. So I guess to some people that is acceptable risk, to others; not.
That's like 13 per 100.000 chance. You chance of being murdered is about 5 per 100,000.
Or about the chances being murdered in Springfield, MA; Paterson, NJ or Tulsa, OK. And how many of us spend what kind of resources to CCW, and carrying a gun isn't benign and riskless.
Just thinking about it in different ways.
Right
...and the fatality rate per 100,000 licensed drivers is at @16. Yet the same dickwads who push people to get vaccinated and think the ones who don't are stupid, get into their cars and drive every single day and think nothing of it. Morons.
Good luck living a life in the US without getting into a car lol
Trust the science on everything. Here is the AMA on the firearms health crisis with numbers and all sorts of goodies.
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/ama-statements/ama-applauds-biden-executive-actions-curb-gun-violence
Averageman
08-18-21, 17:10
Well, freedom isn't truly the operative word, but yes, it is.
I never indicated that anybody should or should not do anything.
It's just that, when the person's reasons for not are false, and they are shouting from the rooftops about their false reasons, it's pretty easy to point it out.
...and, to use an analogy people here likely understand, a sample size of 1 not yet having a problem as a result of their choice proves pretty much nothing. Just sayin'
Well, it continues to prove what happens to a sample of One though doesn't it? And just how many like me are there out there? Has anyone asked us to test?
So, do as you please, I'm sure you line for up next years "Big Deal" also. I just wont be there, have fun!
Still No Vax, Still No Mask, and yet, still no problem.
Well, it continues to prove what happens to a sample of One though doesn't it? And just how many like me are there out there? Has anyone asked us to test?
So, do as you please, I'm sure you line for up next years "Big Deal" also. I just wont be there, have fun!
Still No Vax, Still No Mask, and yet, still no problem.
IDk, that is a good question, what are there more of, people like you, are people 6 feet under?
Ratio changes daily.
Adrenaline_6
08-18-21, 17:31
Well, freedom isn't truly the operative word, but yes, it is.
I never indicated that anybody should or should not do anything.
It's just that, when the person's reasons for not are false, and they are shouting from the rooftops about their false reasons, it's pretty easy to point it out.
...and, to use an analogy people here likely understand, a sample size of 1 not yet having a problem as a result of their choice proves pretty much nothing. Just sayin'
Right
Good luck living a life in the US without getting into a car lol
Who said anything about living in the US without a car? The point, I thought anyway, was simple. People take the same chances everyday by driving a car and not bat an eye or have a single worry about said statistic, but yet are worried about a slighly lower one and then bash people who don't have the same statistically illogical worry. Zero sense.
Who said anything about living in the US without a car?
Sorry, I thought were talking about the United States, and you called people stupid for getting into a car.
The point, I thought anyway, was simple. People take the same chances everyday by driving a car and not bat an eye or have a single worry about said statisti
First, that is a straw man, people absolutely worry about that, constantly.
But more importantly, perhaps,
Good luck living a life in the US without getting into a car lol
I mean maybe you legitimately live in the US and don't get in a car, and think that is easier than getting the vaccine. Me, I think if I were to get the vaccine, that would be easier than never getting in a car.
But, you're not me, so you do you
Who said anything about living in the US without a car? The point, I thought anyway, was simple. People take the same chances everyday by driving a car and not bat an eye or have a single worry about said statistic, but yet are worried about a slighly lower one and then bash people who don't have the same statistically illogical worry. Zero sense.
I can remember back in the 1980's when a WWII vet's family/new people moving in to the WWII vet's former home would find a bring back hand grenade(sometimes real, often not). TV news crews would come in and get an endless stream of neighbors talking about how scared the new discovery made them because it could have leveled the whole neighborhood. Even more entertaining when the interviews were done with backgrounds showing the homes were hooked up to natural gas which actually could accomplish what they felt the grenade could do.
I'm neither surprised nor lost "faith" in the vaccines a tool in the tool box dealing with covid by these recs and fully expected it. I continue to be disappointed that they think we can vaccinate our way out of this vs taking a more broad spectrum approach, but they don't do that for things that kill FAR more than covid, so what do we expect?
To be fair, what contagious disease in the last 100 years has killed 600K Americans (and that number will surely climb now that we're apparently in Round #2)? Not saying that there aren't much more deadly diseases out there, Ebola being an example. But they tend to burn themselves out rather quickly as opposed to spreading like wildfire as COVID does.
More science on firearms from Harvard.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/us-gun-deaths-high/
More science on firearms from Harvard.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/us-gun-deaths-high/
You seem be in the wrong thread lol
If you would like an education on how to dissect and counter that argument, I'd be more than happy, just start a thread asking and link it here so we can stay on topic within each thread
Meanwhile, I will patiently await your lecture on how virtually all covid hospitilazations and death, currently, being unvaccinated, does not support the fact that the vaccine works
You seem be in the wrong thread lol
If you would like an education on how to dissect and counter that argument, I'd be more than happy, just start a thread asking and link it here so we can stay on topic within each thread
Nope. Science and health info with the numbers from the same groups.
Nope. Science and health info with the numbers from the same groups.
I missed the other harvard link posted to this thread.
Are you able to provide that link, and explain why it is wrong?
I missed the other harvard link posted to this thread.
Are you able to provide that link, and explain why it is wrong?
Harvard is a fairly big deal in the medical community as is the AMA I linked to on the previous page. Here is some info from the CDC that can't be doubted either.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/firearms/fastfact.html
Harvard is a fairly big deal in the medical community as is the AMA I linked to on the previous page. Here is some info from the CDC that can't be doubted either.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/firearms/fastfact.html
Thank you for admitting you have no argument whatsoever against the effectiveness of the vaccine
Emotion gonna emotion I guess
Thank you for admitting you have no argument whatsoever against the effectiveness of the vaccine
Emotion gonna emotion I guess
Where did I say anything about vaccines? Why would anyone here doubt anything the scientific field claims?
Where did I say anything about vaccines?
I think you are in the wrong thread. ;)
Well, it continues to prove what happens to a sample of One though doesn't it? And just how many like me are there out there? Has anyone asked us to test?
So, do as you please, I'm sure you line for up next years "Big Deal" also. I just wont be there, have fun!
Still No Vax, Still No Mask, and yet, still no problem.
Same here. Glad these fellas are taking one for the team and opting to be the lab rats here.
I will continue to sit back and watch and see how may rats keel over before the test is 'concluded'. :)
I think you are in the wrong thread. ;)
Why do you not want the data they have come up with to promote public health?
To be fair, what contagious disease in the last 100 years has killed 600K Americans (and that number will surely climb now that we're apparently in Round #2)?
Flip that around - Name any vaccine that has ever in history had so many deaths associated with it?
Why do you not want the data they have come up with to promote public health?
You are right, this is an extremely important topic that we must get to the bottom of.
Here is your thread
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?231560-Are-U-S-gun-deaths-disproportionately-high
Flip that around - Name any vaccine that has ever in history had so many deaths associated with it?
Well, let's start with: How many deaths are "associated" with the vaccine, what constitutes an "associated" death, and how many total individuals have received a covid vaccine?
How many other vaccines have ever in history been given to as many people as covid vaccines have?
You are right, this is an extremely important topic that we must get to the bottom of.
Here is your thread
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?231560-Are-U-S-gun-deaths-disproportionately-high
Here is fine. The scientific and medical communities claims are not to be disputed. Why do you take issue with what they claim?
User jsbhike thinks they are.
Thoughts?
I think I'd start by review of the source by wondering why they picked "gun deaths" and not "homicides" to compare, or suicides vs suicides, and why they left out defensive gun uses.
I didn't write any of the pieces put out by the AMA, CDC, or Harvard so those aren't my thoughts.
Why do you not want the data they have come up with to promote public health?
It is rather funny how they seem to believe every single thing they are fed from those idiots when it pertains to the Rona but if those 'facts' from the same folks pertain to firearms they are dismissed as garbage and 'fudging' of the numbers so the numbers suit the agenda...
I'll add that he et al will not have to wait too long to find out, as it's not a matter of if but when he et al will be exposed as the infectious rates of Delta all but assures that. As for natural immunity, my friend Bill, a very well known person in the fitness/bodybuilding world, early 50s, in good shape, had diagnosed covid when it came out so assume he was GTG, ended up like so:
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10157830820586607&set=a.25375426606
While he's the worst for sure, I now know a handful people personally who had diagnosed covid when it started, got very ill recently, some ended up in the ICU, some knocked the F out for months. All healthy young/youngish active types.
Is he still alive?
I might have mentioned in another thread here that we had a guy in his early 40's who was transferred a week ago, on a vent, to another facility that did ECMO. I can read daily updates in his chart since the case managers here follow as he originated in our facility. He is now off the vent and on high-flow oxygen but still on ECMO. I guess it's a step in the right direction but ever so slowly. He'll be in rehab I'm sure before he ever goes home.
It is rather funny how they seem to believe every single thing they are fed from those idiots when it pertains to the Rona but if those 'facts' from the same folks pertain to firearms they are dismissed as garbage and 'fudging' of the numbers so the numbers suit the agenda...
It's a matter of being capable of intelligent thought, logical deduction, and reasoning.
It's not a matter of auto-accepting or auto-discrediting anything.
I'd be more than happy to educate you (got into the first steps of it in the other thread) on how and why the Harvard link above is wrong, because I am capable of logical deduction, reasoning, intelligent thought, and even better, I am capable of communicating these things to others.
Unfortunately for the flath earth/covid is fake crowd, all they know how to do stick their fingers in their ears and declare everything they don't like to be bologna, for no particular reason.
It's unironically extremely similar to the gun grabbers. They just screech and scream and argue straw men and absolutely refuse to rationally discuss the actual topic at hand.
Maybe we are headed down the natural selection path after all
Still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that the vaccine doesn't work...
Harvard is a fairly big deal in the medical community as is the AMA I linked to on the previous page. Here is some info from the CDC that can't be doubted either.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/firearms/fastfact.html
I am also happy to educate you on this matter.
Start here
That Time The CDC Asked About Defensive Gun Uses
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/04/30/that-time-the-cdc-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/?sh=526f1f64299a
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent
I hope you are more informed after reading those.
Let me know if you have any more questions, I'm happy to spread knowledge
It's a matter of being capable of intelligent thought, logical deduction, and reasoning.
It's not a matter of auto-accepting or auto-discrediting anything.
I'd be more than happy to educate you (got into the first steps of it in the other thread) on how and why the Harvard link above is wrong, because I am capable of logical deduction, reasoning, intelligent thought, and even better, I am capable of communicating these things to others.
Unfortunately for the flath earth/covid is fake crowd, all they know how to do stick their fingers in their ears and declare everything they don't like to be bologna, for no particular reason.
It's unironically extremely similar to the gun grabbers. They just screech and scream and argue straw men and absolutely refuse to rationally discuss the actual topic at hand.
Maybe we are headed down the natural selection path after all
Still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that the vaccine doesn't work...
I didn't say anything about the earth being flat or covid not being real. I just shared information from the scientific community that the ADA, CDC, and Harvard stand behind.
I didn't say anything
You haven't said anything at all, because you have nothing whatsoever to offer on the topic, and you know it.
Feel free to drop another random link for no reason that is not even related to the topic of this thread though.
It's not a matter of auto-accepting or auto-discrediting anything.
For a lot of you fellas it is...
You should be very skeptical when getting your info from sources that are well known as being sources that regularly distort the facts to suit / fit their agenda.
For a lot of you fellas it is...
You should be very skeptical when getting your info from sources that are well known as being sources that regularly distort the facts to suit / fit their agenda.
Feel free to give some examples of sources that have been used, which you don't believe accurate...preferably with your preferred more-accurate alternate source
While you're at it, consider that when I was arguing agsinst jsbhike and his pro-gun control narrative, I didn't even discredit their facts, I pointed out why they hand picked the facts they wanted to use to throw a misleading result out there. But then I am actually talking about these topics, you two are just going do do do do do do
I am also happy to educate you on this matter.
Start here
That Time The CDC Asked About Defensive Gun Uses
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/04/30/that-time-the-cdc-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/?sh=526f1f64299a
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent
I hope you are more informed after reading those.
Let me know if you have any more questions, I'm happy to spread knowledge
Gary Kleck said the CDC didn't publish any of their 1990's studies so apparently there was something about them that didn't live up to their standards. The 2013 study must have some issues too since they are conducting funding new research.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2021/04/news-funding-gun-research
Gary Kleck said the CDC didn't publish any of their 1990's studies so apparently there was something about them that didn't live up to their standards. The 2013 study must have some issues too since they are conducting funding new research.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2021/04/news-funding-gun-research
Let me know if you have any more questions, I'm happy to spread knowledge
Averageman
08-18-21, 19:09
Feel free to give some examples of sources that have been used, which you don't believe accurate...preferably with your preferred more-accurate alternate source
While you're at it, consider that when I was arguing agsinst jsbhike and his pro-gun control narrative, I didn't even discredit their facts, I pointed out why they hand picked the facts they wanted to use to throw a misleading result out there. But then I am actually talking about these topics, you two are just going do do do do do do
You mean like when the WHO comes out and states very clearly that no one should get a third vaccination yet. And yet here we are all talking about getting a third shot.
You mean like when the WHO comes out and states very clearly that no one should get a third vaccination yet. And yet here we are all talking about getting a third shot.
Never heard of it.
Links?
Maybe you hang on the WHO's every word, but I generally don't know what they say. You'll have to fill me in.
Feel free to give some examples of sources that have been used, which you don't believe accurate...preferably with your preferred more-accurate alternate source
While you're at it, consider that when I was arguing agsinst jsbhike and his pro-gun control narrative, I didn't even discredit their facts, I pointed out why they hand picked the facts they wanted to use to throw a misleading result out there. But then I am actually talking about these topics, you two are just going do do do do do do
I didn't write any of those reports so not sure why you are claiming I have a pro gun control narrative.
I didn't write any of those reports so not sure why you are claiming I have a pro gun control narrative.
Why do you hate guns?
At any rate, you very successfully distracted us from discussing the known-fact that the covid vaccines are working. Congrats
Why do you hate guns?
I don't hate guns.
Why do you not like the CDC, AMA, and Harvard publications being shared?
I don't hate guns.
Why do you not like the CDC, AMA, and Harvard publications being shared?
You have that backwards, I am inviting you to share them, and you are declining.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?231560-Are-U-S-gun-deaths-disproportionately-high
Have at it.
At any rate, you very successfully distracted us from discussing the known-fact that the covid vaccines are working. Congrats
You have that backwards, I am inviting you to share them, and you are declining.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?231560-Are-U-S-gun-deaths-disproportionately-high
Have at it.
At any rate, you very successfully distracted us from discussing the known-fact that the covid vaccines are working. Congrats
No idea why you consider it a distraction. All 3 sources I shared don't make claims that differ from anything you are stating.
Averageman
08-18-21, 19:18
Never heard of it.
Links?
Maybe you hang on the WHO's every word, but I generally don't know what they say. You'll have to fill me in.
https://www.unlvrebelyell.com/vaccination-against-covid-19-no-need-for-the-third-dose-now-says-the-who/
“We clearly believe that the current data does not suggest that the boosters are necessary,” said WHO chief scientist Soumya Swaminathan at a press conference.
We have to “wait for science to tell us when to need boosters, which groups of people and which vaccines need boosts,” she said.
https://www.unlvrebelyell.com/vaccination-against-covid-19-no-need-for-the-third-dose-now-says-the-who/
“We clearly believe that the current data does not suggest that the boosters are necessary,” said WHO chief scientist Soumya Swaminathan at a press conference.
We have to “wait for science to tell us when to need boosters, which groups of people and which vaccines need boosts,” she said.
I am aware that some people think it's selfish of the US and other wealthy countries to get themselves a third dose when so many other people have yet to be given the opportunity for a single dose.
So, the WHO says booster isn't necessary. Okay? So, it's not necessary. Does that bother you? Are you dead set on getting your third? What's the issue?
Averageman
08-18-21, 19:31
I am aware that some people think it's selfish of the US and other wealthy countries to get themselves a third dose when so many other people have yet to be given the opportunity for a single dose.
So, the WHO says booster isn't necessary. Okay? So, it's not necessary. Does that bother you? Are you dead set on getting your third? What's the issue?
No, I'm actually kind of amazed.
Amazed that so many people lined up and took a vaccine that was rushed through and not approved yet, but WTF, Stick Me.
Even more amazed that when the same people found out that the vaccine doesn't work, they can still catch it and spread it like well, like they weren't vaccinated. They decided to line up for yet another untested vaccine.
Just curious as to how long you can keep going back to the same old story, the same old vaccine, same old mask and same old six feet distancing.
And yet expect a different result this time.
How long do we muck about with this before this too goes bad and we inadvertanly build a better virus via vaccination and willy nilly treatments?
No, I'm actually kind of amazed.
Amazed that so many people lined up and took a vaccine that was rushed through and not approved yet, but WTF, Stick Me.
Even more amazed that when the same people found out that the vaccine doesn't work, they can still catch it and spread it like well, like they weren't vaccinated. They decided to line up for yet another untested vaccine.
Just curious as to how long you can keep going back to the same old story, the same old vaccine, same old mask and same old six feet distancing.
And yet expect a different result this time.
How long do we muck about with this before this too goes bad and we inadvertanly build a better virus via vaccination and willy nilly treatments?
I see where you are confused.
The primary objective of the vaccine is not to prevent you from catching the virus at all.
The primary objective is to prevent serious illness or death. At which the vaccines are doing well.
Hope this helps you understand.
Averageman
08-18-21, 19:38
I see where you are confused.
The primary objective of the vaccine is not to prevent you from catching the virus at all.
The primary objective is to prevent serious illness or death. At which the vaccines are doing well.
Hope this helps you understand.
So my vaccine for whooping cough was so I would only get a little bit of whooping cough, just not alot of whooping cough.
Roger, you sir have cleared it up for me.
Thanks
That’s maybe what the current working definition of vaccine is. But for everyone who remembers the world pre 2020 - vaccines were designed to prevent infection and spread of a disease.
Dr. Malone who Will mentioned earlier in the thread has spoken about how these “leaky vaccines” (his words) are going to create more diverse and resistant variants because they’re not killing the virus or stopping the spread. Rather they are facilitating propagation and evolution.
That’s maybe what the current working definition of vaccine is. But for everyone who remembers the world pre 2020 - vaccines were designed to prevent infection and spread of a disease.
Dr. Malone who Will mentioned earlier in the thread has spoken about how these “leaky vaccines” (his words) are going to create more diverse and resistant variants because they’re not killing the virus or stopping the spread. Rather they are facilitating propagation and evolution.
Funny, I remember the annual flu shot being a thing for a long time and never was it touted as absolutely preventing you from getting the flu, even that very season.
What alternate reality are you from?
No vaccine, "natural herd immunity", is the fastest way to evolution. More hosts, more virus, more spread, more chances for mutation
The flu vaccine is supposed to prevent you from getting that years’ variant last I heard. Haven’t got that in over 10 years either :). No fuss no muss.
This is only an issue because there’s a sizable amount of folks trying to make this sh*t mandatory to live your life.
The flu vaccine is supposed to prevent you from getting that years’ variant last I heard. Haven’t got that in over 10 years either :). No fuss no muss.
This is only an issue because there’s a sizable amount of folks trying to make this sh*t mandatory to live your life.
I see the source of your confusion. You heard incorrectly.
Here, I found a pre-covid (2017) example, RE: Purpose of the seasonal flu vaccine
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/flu-shot-myths-facts-why-doctors-recommend-it-ncna806706
To get to the good part
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/flu-shot-myths-facts-why-doctors-recommend-it-ncna806706#anchor-TheGoalOfTheVaccineIsNotNecessarilyToPreventFlu
"Optimally, the flu vaccine will prevent you from getting the flu, but that's actually secondary to the primary goals of the vaccine which are to prevent epidemic and to reduce the cases of severe flu infection."
And this I knew, for years, pre covid, I just happened to look up an old article for you as I believe in citing sources. Most of us did.
I hope this newfound knowledge helps you better understand what is happening out there
I throw flags on this. The vaccine is based on what, alpha or the genetics from maybe something pre-alpha- and then focused on the spike protein. Natural immunity probably is using that plus other bits of the virus. So you got the vaccines focused on one thing, and natural immunity probably based on that plus different parts. And the part of the virus that are changing - the spike proteins and how they perform- that's why Delta is so catchy.
.
The vaccines are based on the spike protein that docks to the ACE II receptor on the cell for entry, something they all share, and while there have been some mods by variants to their spike protein - the likely reason the vaccines benefits did drop - not enough to nullify the antibodies that target that protein. Yes, they have tested natural derived anti bodies from alpha on Delta vs those produced via vaccines, and the latter bound to Delta far better. If you'd watch some of those vids I keep supplying...
So, there's not just epi data, there's lab cell data showing that.
Sounds like they wrote it that way for that piece. “Optimally” and not necessarily designed. Word salad from the credible media.
Still gonna pass
I see the source of your confusion. You heard incorrectly.
Here, I found a pre-covid (2017) example, RE: Purpose of the seasonal flu vaccine
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/flu-shot-myths-facts-why-doctors-recommend-it-ncna806706
To get to the good part
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/flu-shot-myths-facts-why-doctors-recommend-it-ncna806706#anchor-TheGoalOfTheVaccineIsNotNecessarilyToPreventFlu
"Optimally, the flu vaccine will prevent you from getting the flu, but that's actually secondary to the primary goals of the vaccine which are to prevent epidemic and to reduce the cases of severe flu infection."
And this I knew, for years, pre covid, I just happened to look up an old article for you as I believe in citing sources. Most of us did.
I hope this newfound knowledge helps you better understand what is happening out there
NBC news has lots of public health info.
https://www.nbcnews.com/guns-in-america
To be fair, what contagious disease in the last 100 years has killed 600K Americans (and that number will surely climb now that we're apparently in Round #2)? Not saying that there aren't much more deadly diseases out there, Ebola being an example. But they tend to burn themselves out rather quickly as opposed to spreading like wildfire as COVID does.
I was actually thinking of diseases like cancer, CVD, and diabetes, vs infectious diseases. In terms of infectious diseases, I agreed.
Sounds like they wrote it that way for that piece. “Optimally” and not necessarily designed. Word salad from the credible media.
Still gonna pass
I don't care what you do, but, if you're going to open your [keyboard] mouth on the subject, it would be helpful if it wasn't to spread fake news.
Some vaccines, such as the flu shot we re familiar with for some time now, as well as covid, are not intended to straight up prevent you from catching the virus at all. This is nothing new. They are primarily intended to prevent serious illness or death. So, you heard wrong. But now you know, and knowing is half the battle. Go Joe
Is he still alive?
I might have mentioned in another thread here that we had a guy in his early 40's who was transferred a week ago, on a vent, to another facility that did ECMO. I can read daily updates in his chart since the case managers here follow as he originated in our facility. He is now off the vent and on high-flow oxygen but still on ECMO. I guess it's a step in the right direction but ever so slowly. He'll be in rehab I'm sure before he ever goes home.
Yes, he's alive, but in bad shape, has a long rehab ahead, probably never going to be his pre covid self considering the damage done would be my guess.
That’s maybe what the current working definition of vaccine is. But for everyone who remembers the world pre 2020 - vaccines were designed to prevent infection and spread of a disease.
Dr. Malone who Will mentioned earlier in the thread has spoken about how these “leaky vaccines” (his words) are going to create more diverse and resistant variants because they’re not killing the virus or stopping the spread. Rather they are facilitating propagation and evolution.
Source? I find a lot of places putting words in his mouth and or taking what he says out of context for their own agenda. It should be noted, Delta for example existed pre vaccine, contrary to claims made by some, and with or without vaccines, viruses evolve and change. Having said that, I don't think we will vaccine our way out of this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/status/1427653217786155008
https://mobile.twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/status/1427653217786155008To be fair if we're so concerned about this we should drop all antibiotics now too.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
To be fair if we're so concerned about this we should drop all antibiotics now too.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
A valid point.
I think it's not so much a concern as it is a grasping at straws trying to find something.
I mean, by all means, the naysayers are free to refuse antibiotics when their kid gets strep or an ear infection or pneumonia because they don't want to create resistant mutations. Just go for the old natural herd immunity
A valid point.
I think it's not so much a concern as it is a grasping at straws trying to find something.
I mean, by all means, the naysayers are free to refuse antibiotics when their kid gets strep or an ear infection or pneumonia because they don't want to create resistant mutations. Just go for the old natural herd immunity
Fairly sure antibiotics work on bacteria and fairly sure antibiotics don't work on viruses. In fact, most med facilities have posters up stating such.
Kind of odd, I have had lots of friends, family, and coworkers go to these very same health care facilities when ill, get diagnosed as "a virus going around", and end up getting an injection of an antibiotic.
Fairly sure antibiotics work on bacteria and fairly sure antibiotics don't work on viruses. In fact, most med facilities have posters up stating such.
Kind of odd, I have had lots of friends, family, and coworkers go to these very same health care facilities when ill, get diagnosed as "a virus going around", and end up getting an injection of an antibiotic.
Fairly sure bacteria mutate and evolve the same way all living things do, including viruses. In fact, that's a fact.
Hence the analogy, which is apt.
Fairly sure antibiotics work on bacteria and fairly sure antibiotics don't work on viruses. In fact, most med facilities have posters up stating such.
Kind of odd, I have had lots of friends, family, and coworkers go to these very same health care facilities when ill, get diagnosed as "a virus going around", and end up getting an injection of an antibiotic.Yes but because we over use antibiotics we are actually creating antibiotics resistant bacteria. They evolve too and it has been an ongoing issue, especially in hospitals, for about a decade now, probably longer. There have been plenty of previously easy to kill bacteria that is now resistant to everything we have and labs are trying to find new ways to kill them without killing the host.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/superbug-fungus-candida-auris-long-term-care-facilities-texas-washington-dc/
"Candida auris, which was first seen in the U.S. in 2013, is "resistant to multiple anti-fungal drugs that we have, and it's also resistant to all the things that we use to eradicate bacteria and fungal strains in the hospital,"
This is of course just one example. There are others.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Fairly sure bacteria mutate and evolve the same way all living things do, including viruses. In fact, that's a fact.
Hence the analogy, which is apt.
Well that's true.
Maybe the powers that be will explore forced dosing of antibiotics and other stuff as well.
Yes but because we over use antibiotics we are actually creating antibiotics resistant bacteria. They evolve too and it has been an ongoing issue, especially in hospitals, for about a decade now, probably longer. There have been plenty of previously easy to kill bacteria that is now resistant to everything we have and labs are trying to find new ways to kill them without killing the host.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Yes.
But, I don't know anybody reasonable who would argue that we should have never used the antibiotics to begin with, because eventually resistant mutations would happen. Kind of a weird and silly thought experiment...don't use this tool that can save lives because if you use it and save a bunch of lives, eventually it won't work any more, so don't use it at all. Like...what?
Maybe the covid vaccine argument for that would be, only use it on the at risk population of obese, old, preexisting conditions, etc, and ban "otherwise healthy" people from getting the vaccine. Yeah...don't think that would go over so well lol
Well that's true.
Maybe the powers that be will explore forced dosing of antibiotics and other stuff as well.
I must have missed something. What powers that be are forcing what be taken now? The powers that be, are they forcing you to get vaccinated?
Yes but because we over use antibiotics we are actually creating antibiotics resistant bacteria. They evolve too and it has been an ongoing issue, especially in hospitals, for about a decade now, probably longer. There have been plenty of previously easy to kill bacteria that is now resistant to everything we have and labs are trying to find new ways to kill them without killing the host.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
I am aware of that, which is why the mention of loads of people I know who have received antibiotics from the physician for what the physician diagnosed as a virus. No farm supply med section or coercing said physician in any way.
Yes.
But, I don't know anybody reasonable who would argue that we should have never used the antibiotics to begin with, because eventually resistant mutations would happen. Kind of a weird and silly thought experiment...don't use this tool that can save lives because if you use it and save a bunch of lives, eventually it won't work any more, so don't use it at all. Like...what?
Maybe the covid vaccine argument for that would be, only use it on the at risk population of obese, old, preexisting conditions, etc, and ban "otherwise healthy" people from getting the vaccine. Yeah...don't think that would go over so well lol
I must have missed something. What powers that be are forcing what be taken now? The powers that be, are they forcing you to get vaccinated?
The forcing seems to be the trend as you have undoubtedly noticed.
Coal Dragger
08-18-21, 22:03
I already got a vaccine if I need to I’ll get a booster too.
Still wondering about this
Nope. Science and health info with the numbers from the same groups.
I missed the other harvard link posted to this thread.
Are you able to provide that link, and explain why it is wrong?
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-18-21, 23:19
Fairly sure bacteria mutate and evolve the same way all living things do, including viruses.
In fact, that's a fact.
We’ll yes, but not really. I’d be happy if people stopped making it sound like evolution is some conscious reaction to a stimuli. Random mutations in genetic information that lead to different biological outcomes is OK, but totally ignoring gene expression especially in multicellular eukaryotes. Then there is plasma transfer in bacteria. Technically viruses aren’t even alive and their genetics are all funky. So yes, random changes in genetic information lead to different biological outcomes, which depending on the environment have a positive or negative effect on reproduction.
No saying you are doing it, but 95% of the press makes it seem like the virus is scheming to do it.
I already got a vaccine if I need to I’ll get a booster too.
That is the question, isn’t it; need?
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-19-21, 00:44
Iceland
I know, low numbers, but the curves and shapes are the same, just like two orders of magnitude smaller. Higher vax rate- but that isn't stopping spreading, and there are still about 25% unvaxed, so that should leave some open to bad outcomes.
The Delta wave started early July. I think one death? Thousands of cases, should have mid double digits...
About the polar opposite than India, but similar outcome- at least we'll see in a month if Iceland peters out on cases.
And if one of you A-holes brings up Vikings....
This whole thing about anti biotics and selective pressure, that is why I'd rather get DElta while my first shots are best protecting me- or if I have to get a booster, give me the one I didn't get before. I want more than one attack angle/defensive line on the virus. Call me stupid, call me a dumbass. I really don't care. For some reason I can look at complex datasets and systems and I see things that other people say are crap, but end up being true.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/status/1427653217786155008
Thanx, will view.
Adrenaline_6
08-19-21, 09:12
Sorry, I thought were talking about the United States, and you called people stupid for getting into a car.
First, that is a straw man, people absolutely worry about that, constantly.
But more importantly, perhaps,
Good luck living a life in the US without getting into a car lol
I mean maybe you legitimately live in the US and don't get in a car, and think that is easier than getting the vaccine. Me, I think if I were to get the vaccine, that would be easier than never getting in a car.
But, you're not me, so you do you
Seriously, your claiming every time you get in a car, you actively think about not making it home. I call BS. Sure ,there might be some worry warts that do that, but 99% get in drive and don't think at all about it, while accepting said risk....every day...every time. I'm not the one criticizing the risk takers...you and your kind are. If they want to take the risk, whatever it may be, it's on them, that is their free will to do so. I take the risk every day and drive an hour back and forth to my job and take that risk and think nothing of it. It is an acceptable risk that I willingly take every day and eff everyone who thinks I shouldn't take it. The same goes for everyone who is willing to take the risk not getting vaccinated. That is their choice, let them be and keep the high and mighty criticisms to ones self. Oh, and I am vaccinated by the way. My wife has stage 4 spinal cancer and she wants to go on a cruise as one of her bucket lists. That requires a vaccination card to board the ship. I got it for her, otherwise I was willing to take that "terrible risk".
Seriously, your claiming every time you get in a car, you actively think about not making it home. I call BS. Sure ,there might be some worry warts that do that, but 99% get in drive and don't think at all about it, while accepting said risk....every day...every time. I'm not the one criticizing the risk takers...you and your kind are. If they want to take the risk, whatever it may be, it's on them, that is their free will to do so. I take the risk every day and drive an hour back and forth to my job and take that risk and think nothing of it. It is an acceptable risk that I willingly take every day and eff everyone who thinks I shouldn't take it. The same goes for everyone who is willing to take the risk not getting vaccinated. That is their choice, let them be and keep the high and mighty criticisms to ones self. Oh, and I am vaccinated by the way. My wife has stage 4 spinal cancer and she wants to go on a cruise as one of her bucket lists. That requires a vaccination card to board the ship. I got it for her, otherwise I was willing to take that "terrible risk".
I am claiming that people do give thought to the dangerous nature of driving a car.
Are you claiming that every time a concealed carrier puts their gun and holster on, they are thinking about killing somebody?
Come on man
BTW: WHy are you putting "terrible risk" in quotations? Who are you quoting? Can you link or actually quote where somebody said "terrible risk"?
And I'm still laughing out loud that you seem to think getting the vaccine is an equal amount of inconvenience as never getting into a car. If your argument is evaluated logically, anyway
P2Vaircrewman
08-19-21, 09:38
It is rather funny how they seem to believe every single thing they are fed from those idiots when it pertains to the Rona but if those 'facts' from the same folks pertain to firearms they are dismissed as garbage and 'fudging' of the numbers so the numbers suit the agenda...
Amen my brother.
Amen my brother.
That's not what happens at all.
If you'd like to learn how and why those sources are garbage with regard to firearms, you can start with this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?231560-Are-U-S-gun-deaths-disproportionately-high
But, fair warning, it involves logical reasoning, deduction, critical thought, etc...nothing automatically believed or thrown out. You gotta work for it and truly understand the subject matter. It's not for everybody
Adrenaline_6
08-19-21, 09:49
I am claiming that people do give thought to the dangerous nature of driving a car.
Are you claiming that every time a concealed carrier puts their gun and holster on, they are thinking about killing somebody?
Come on man
BTW: WHy are you putting "terrible risk" in quotations? Who are you quoting? Can you link or actually quote where somebody said "terrible risk"?
And I'm still laughing out loud that you seem to think getting the vaccine is an equal amount of inconvenience as never getting into a car. If your argument is evaluated logically, anyway
I never said that...you are implying that. What I am saying and that you are missing is that if people are willing to take a risk, that is theirs to take, and everyone else should stfu about it and not bother them or virtue signal, guilt trip, etc, about something that affects them and not you.
You are right about people giving a thought about the nature of driving a car, but do it anyway, regardless of said risk. What they don't do is worry about it every time they go to drive. It is accepted and they do it for the most part without worrying about it. The same goes for thee people who don't want vaccinations. They know the odds, they are good with it and carry on every single day with those odds. It is their risk to deal with, leave them alone.
P2Vaircrewman
08-19-21, 09:54
That's not what happens at all.
If you'd like to learn how and why those sources are garbage with regard to firearms, you can start with this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?231560-Are-U-S-gun-deaths-disproportionately-high
But, fair warning, it involves logical reasoning, deduction, critical thought, etc...nothing automatically believed or thrown out. You gotta work for it and truly understand the subject matter. It's not for everybody
Ok--------
I never said that...you are implying that. What I am saying and that you are missing is that if people are willing to take a risk, that is theirs to take, and everyone else should stfu about it and not bother them or virtue signal, guilt trip, etc, about something that affects them and not you.
You are right about people giving a thought about the nature of driving a car, but do it anyway, regardless of said risk. What they don't do is worry about it every time they go to drive. It is accepted and they do it for the most part without worrying about it. The same goes for thee people who don't want vaccinations. They know the odds, they are good with it and carry on every single day with those odds. It is their risk to deal with, leave them alone.
People choose to mitigate the risk of driving with safety measures like wearing a seat belt, buying safer vehicles, not drinking and driving, etc. You know, wearing fabric safety devices to reduce chances of...yeah, that's a thing...just sayin'
I am leaving them alone, what are you talking about?
My only concern is when they lie, mislead, and deceive about the facts while shouting from the rooftops about why they believe the vaccine is the devil.
Adrenaline_6
08-19-21, 10:01
People choose to mitigate the risk of driving with safety measures like wearing a seat belt, buying safer vehicles, not drinking and driving, etc. You know, wearing fabric safety devices to reduce chances of...yeah, that's a thing...just sayin'
I am leaving them alone, what are you talking about?
My only concern is when they lie, mislead, and deceive about the facts while shouting from the rooftops about why they believe the vaccine is the devil.
I'm with you on the false facts part, although with all the garbage being spewed on both sides, that is also a sh*t show.
Some people wear seat belts, buy safer vehicles, and don't drive drunk, etc. Some don't and "accept" said risks.
I'm with you on the false facts part, although with all the garbage being spewed on both sides, that is also a sh*t show.
Some people wear seat belts, buy safer vehicles, and don't drive drunk, etc. Some don't and "accept" said risks.
And there's the rub. When a person chooses DUI, they are putting other people at risk, and that is not theirs to assume.
People like to pretend some actions only effect them, as an excuse for their actions.
Adrenaline_6
08-19-21, 10:10
And there's the rub. When a person chooses DUI, they are putting other people at risk, and that is not theirs to assume.
People like to pretend some actions only effect them, as an excuse for their actions.
It is also against the law because of it. It was a shallow example and does not apply to vaccinations. Let's not go down that route.
Averageman
08-19-21, 11:16
I'm sincerly waiting for the giant leap to "If your not Vaccinated, it's just like driving DUI.
Come on I know you can do it !
Just “follow the science” guys. No reason to question any of this.
I mean, it passes the smell test-
A “vaccine” so good you have to get it to live, but you’ve got to pressure other people who don’t want it to get it or you are at risk, even though you are vaccinated…
A “vaccine” so good that it is “free” to you and everyone is trying to shame you into getting it or you’re hurting others- greater good BS- meanwhile you are footing the bill as the tax payer to pay big pharma hundreds of billions of dollars- whom have terrible, terrible track records mind you, and are completely insulated from liability for hurting and killing people with said vaccine…
A “vaccine” so good, that it’s being sold as better than natural antibodies, you know- the ones your body custom tailors specifically for you as an individual to fight the virus with…
A “vaccine” so good, that you should still wear a mask after getting two doses, scratch that- two masks, when you’re inside with other people, just to be safe.
A “vaccine” so damn good that people with the most minimal risk from COVID 19 are being targeted to take it- children and the side effects they are having are brushed off as not too concerning.
A “vaccine” so good, that if you post anything negative about it on social media it’s got to be censored for fear that it will influence people’s opinion…
A “vaccine” so good, that you just need to give up a little more liberty, and you’ll be “safe”…
This shit is just insane.
Get your booster shot, wear your face diaper, close your business, follow the mandates, stay in line and bow down and bend over to the authority of the State- I mean it’s science guys!
Clap - Clap - Clap
Well stated.
I'll only add that there have been exactly ZERO consequences for the ChiCom's who released this onto the world, nor are there likely to be with CHI-Den in office. No, I'm also not willing to give them a free pass that this wasn't done intentionally.
Why exactly did Fauci cover it up then lie about it publicly? Why did academia lie and provide cover for the Chi-coms?
Why are they allowed to lie, keep their jobs and suffer zero consequences? The answers to these questions probably explain why the cycle of fear and oppression continues to be pushed.
P2Vaircrewman
08-19-21, 11:45
A friend and his wife in Mobile both got the stick earlier in the year. Now she is sick with the virus and in the hospital getting the antibody treatment. Don't get too confident.
A friend and his wife in Mobile both got the stick earlier in the year. Now she is sick with the virus and in the hospital getting the antibody treatment. Don't get too confident.
I have already explained, over and over, data and real world clinical experience, finds those who have had covid in the past 6-12 months, have minimal protection from Delta. Two, data and clinical experience also finds the vaccines highly effective against all variants so far, less so with Delta, still approx 90%. Why? I covered that too several times in this and other threads...
Again, I personally know a handful of people who were diagnosed with covid when it started, who assumed they were GTG, who got very ill recently, several of whom were hospitalized, one so close to death his family was saying their goodbyes and all that. Dude is healthy, active, early 50s:
https://www.facebook.com/WillBrinkOnline/posts/10158208363536517
Hence why the rec is, for those who have had prior covid exposure, getting at least 1 shot of the 2 shot protocol, is warranted.
This is not f-ing rocket science here.
I'm gonna depart this thread now as the level of cognitive dissonance and denial of reality too much for me.
Stay safe out there.
I have already explained, over and over, data and real world clinical experience, finds those who have had covid in the past 6-12 months, have minimal protection from Delta. Two, data and clinical experience also finds the vaccines highly effective against all variants so far, less so with Delta, still approx 90%. Why? I covered that too several times in this and other threads...
Again, I personally know a handful of people who were diagnosed with covid when it started, who assumed they were GTG, who got very ill recently, several of whom were hospitalized, one so close to death his family was saying their goodbyes and all that. Dude is healthy, active, early 50s:
https://www.facebook.com/WillBrinkOnline/posts/10158208363536517
Hence why the rec is, for those who have had prior covid exposure, getting at least 1 shot of the 2 shot protocol, is warranted.
This is not f-ing rocket science here.
I'm gonna depart this thread now as the level of cognitive dissonance and denial of reality too much for me.
Stay safe out there.
In this day and age, if you don't like something, the exception or outlier is all that matters. That's why they want to ban semi auto rifles, point to a school shooting, see, they are bad, that one example is all you need! And just ignore the very real possibility that she'd be in the cemetery rather than hospital right now without a vaccine...
Dr. Robert Malone just posted this on his twatter page...puro cognitivo dissonance vatos.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/jXfmhulYzIAs/
I have already explained, over and over, data and real world clinical experience, finds those who have had covid in the past 6-12 months, have minimal protection from Delta. Two, data and clinical experience also finds the vaccines highly effective against all variants so far, less so with Delta, still approx 90%. Why? I covered that too several times in this and other threads...
Again, I personally know a handful of people who were diagnosed with covid when it started, who assumed they were GTG, who got very ill recently, several of whom were hospitalized, one so close to death his family was saying their goodbyes and all that. Dude is healthy, active, early 50s:
https://www.facebook.com/WillBrinkOnline/posts/10158208363536517
Hence why the rec is, for those who have had prior covid exposure, getting at least 1 shot of the 2 shot protocol, is warranted.
This is not f-ing rocket science here.
I'm gonna depart this thread now as the level of cognitive dissonance and denial of reality too much for me.
Stay safe out there.I think that's what he's saying. Both got the vaccine and now one is in the hospital getting antibody treatment after getting infected and sick
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
eightmillimeter
08-19-21, 13:03
I have already explained, over and over, data and real world clinical experience, finds those who have had covid in the past 6-12 months, have minimal protection from Delta. Two, data and clinical experience also finds the vaccines highly effective against all variants so far, less so with Delta, still approx 90%. Why? I covered that too several times in this and other threads...
Again, I personally know a handful of people who were diagnosed with covid when it started, who assumed they were GTG, who got very ill recently, several of whom were hospitalized, one so close to death his family was saying their goodbyes and all that. Dude is healthy, active, early 50s:
https://www.facebook.com/WillBrinkOnline/posts/10158208363536517
Hence why the rec is, for those who have had prior covid exposure, getting at least 1 shot of the 2 shot protocol, is warranted.
This is not f-ing rocket science here.
I'm gonna depart this thread now as the level of cognitive dissonance and denial of reality too much for me.
Stay safe out there.
Sorry to see you go but I understand completely.
While the intentions of various pharma companies and political factions are certainly subjects of deserving debate, there were real people just like you and me working for these companies who got up, went to work, joined task groups, and literally gave 110% of their collective effort to make safe vaccines to beat this virus. Do they now go home at night and vow never to do their best work again because of how these vaccines are vilified? Will smart people ever again study and join these companies because now every time there’s a new treatment people won’t even sign up for the clinical trials? Even worse, 50% of people may avoid a treatment because “reasons.” The damage done to the medical industry as a whole from this whole mess won’t be known for generations.
I saw a page back now even antibiotics are being drug into the debate. Antibiotic resistant bacteria are a real thing. In fact, this is probably the biggest looming public health threat in the modern era and very few are paying attention.
Say what you wish about these vaccines. In real numbers, no other vaccine in the history of man has been subject to the same level of scrutiny.
It would be helpful to break down each of the big debates one by one; side effects, deaths, long-term unknowns, and religious/ideological debates. But there is no time and people at this point simply don’t care, everyone at this point has already chosen their hill.
Life is the product of 50% of our choices and 50% of where we are when crap happens.
70 years ago, if another country in a sketchy part of the world was responsible for making and releasing a virus, somebody would have been nuked, but here we are, fighting amongst friends, neighbors, and our own families FFS.
Adrenaline_6
08-19-21, 14:18
Sorry to see you go but I understand completely.
While the intentions of various pharma companies and political factions are certainly subjects of deserving debate, there were real people just like you and me working for these companies who got up, went to work, joined task groups, and literally gave 110% of their collective effort to make safe vaccines to beat this virus. Do they now go home at night and vow never to do their best work again because of how these vaccines are vilified? Will smart people ever again study and join these companies because now every time there’s a new treatment people won’t even sign up for the clinical trials? Even worse, 50% of people may avoid a treatment because “reasons.” The damage done to the medical industry as a whole from this whole mess won’t be known for generations.
I saw a page back now even antibiotics are being drug into the debate. Antibiotic resistant bacteria are a real thing. In fact, this is probably the biggest looming public health threat in the modern era and very few are paying attention.
Say what you wish about these vaccines. In real numbers, no other vaccine in the history of man has been subject to the same level of scrutiny.
It would be helpful to break down each of the big debates one by one; side effects, deaths, long-term unknowns, and religious/ideological debates. But there is no time and people at this point simply don’t care, everyone at this point has already chosen their hill.
Life is the product of 50% of our choices and 50% of where we are when crap happens.
70 years ago, if another country in a sketchy part of the world was responsible for making and releasing a virus, somebody would have been nuked, but here we are, fighting amongst friends, neighbors, and our own families FFS.
I know many who have chosen the "3rd hill" which is "the long term data isn't out there yet, so I am choosing to hold off a little bit and see how it plays out."
Diamondback
08-19-21, 14:41
I know many who have chosen the "3rd hill" which is "the long term data isn't out there yet, so I am choosing to hold off a little bit and see how it plays out."
This is where I am. I have questions, I have doubts, but I'm willing to give things time to wait and see--unfortunately the "YOU have to take a needle in the arm RIGHT NOW OR YOU'RE GONNA KILL US ALL!" screeching like 4chan autistic retards from some circles is not exactly conducive to the measured pace and deliberation of a reasoned debate. I have a reflexive distrust of anyone who drops a "We must do SOMETHING, THIS is something, therefore there's no time for debate and we must do THIS immediately"...
SomeOtherGuy
08-19-21, 15:15
I know many who have chosen the "3rd hill" which is "the long term data isn't out there yet, so I am choosing to hold off a little bit and see how it plays out."
This is where I am. I have questions, I have doubts, but I'm willing to give things time to wait and see--unfortunately the "YOU have to take a needle in the arm RIGHT NOW OR YOU'RE GONNA KILL US ALL!" screeching like 4chan autistic retards from some circles is not exactly conducive to the measured pace and deliberation of a reasoned debate. I have a reflexive distrust of anyone who drops a "We must do SOMETHING, THIS is something, therefore there's no time for debate and we must do THIS immediately"...
This and this, 100%. Monitoring it all closely, and STILL waiting for Novavax's option to be approved because it looks to me much safer, and its trials indicate equal or greater efficacy vs. the existing US EUA options.
Might get a shingles vaccine, or at least ask about it, based on someone's comments a few weeks back. Not anti-vax. But well aware that even FDA-approved drugs sometimes kill people (Vioxx, for example) or cause other serious harm (DES, Thalidomide, various SSRI's), so I have ZERO inherent trust of either drug companies or the FDA. I trust mountains of data accumulated over years of use. We are heading in that direction with the mRNA shots, but I still don't see enough time or analysis that I feel truly comfortable. Meanwhile my age and health are such that the risk of Covid itself is moderate, I'm in an area with low incidence, and it just seems smart to wait and see.
When I do eventually get something, a primary reason will be for "vaccine passport" requirements to travel internationally. I just discovered yesterday that a key destination requires a very specific type of documentation, which most local providers can't provide at this time. Ironically it looks like Walmart maybe can.
This and this, 100%. Monitoring it all closely, and STILL waiting for Novavax's option to be approved because it looks to me much safer, and its trials indicate equal or greater efficacy vs. the existing US EUA options.
Might get a shingles vaccine, or at least ask about it, based on someone's comments a few weeks back. Not anti-vax. But well aware that even FDA-approved drugs sometimes kill people (Vioxx, for example) or cause other serious harm (DES, Thalidomide, various SSRI's), so I have ZERO inherent trust of either drug companies or the FDA. I trust mountains of data accumulated over years of use. We are heading in that direction with the mRNA shots, but I still don't see enough time or analysis that I feel truly comfortable. Meanwhile my age and health are such that the risk of Covid itself is moderate, I'm in an area with low incidence, and it just seems smart to wait and see.
When I do eventually get something, a primary reason will be for "vaccine passport" requirements to travel internationally. I just discovered yesterday that a key destination requires a very specific type of documentation, which most local providers can't provide at this time. Ironically it looks like Walmart maybe can.This is where I'm at too. Really turned off by the deliberate info suppression and the held harmless BS. I'm fine with the vaccines but a decade from now I don't want to be in line with 200 million other people waiting for a kidney transplant. They say the spike protein is immunogenic. It causes an immune response. Ok great. Now we add booster to that. Then maybe another. Does this constant raising of the immune system have effect on organs? Because a there are health conditions caused by hyper immune systems. Some mild, some not. Maybe this doesn't mean anything. Maybe we just found our fountain of youth and it'll turn out we live longer and healthier. Or maybe this will cause a lot of problems later on.
I couldn't give two shits about traveling (not that there's anything wrong with it) or restaurants. I'm more concerned with future side effects, if any. Them screaming this is the safest and most tested is misleading. They did the tests in just under 3 months. It like saying having a few cigarettes is not dangerous. It isn't but smoke a pack a day for a decade and then see!
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
A friend and his wife in Mobile both got the stick earlier in the year. Now she is sick with the virus and in the hospital getting the antibody treatment. Don't get too confident.
I have already explained, over and over, data and real world clinical experience, finds those who have had covid in the past 6-12 months, have minimal protection from Delta. Two, data and clinical experience also finds the vaccines highly effective against all variants so far, less so with Delta, still approx 90%. Why? I covered that too several times in this and other threads...
Again, I personally know a handful of people who were diagnosed with covid when it started, who assumed they were GTG, who got very ill recently, several of whom were hospitalized, one so close to death his family was saying their goodbyes and all that. Dude is healthy, active, early 50s:
https://www.facebook.com/WillBrinkOnline/posts/10158208363536517
Hence why the rec is, for those who have had prior covid exposure, getting at least 1 shot of the 2 shot protocol, is warranted.
This is not f-ing rocket science here.
I'm gonna depart this thread now as the level of cognitive dissonance and denial of reality too much for me.
Stay safe out there.
"Got the stick" means they took the vaccination.
I have already explained, over and over, data and real world clinical experience, finds those who have had covid in the past 6-12 months, have minimal protection from Delta. Two, data and clinical experience also finds the vaccines highly effective against all variants so far, less so with Delta, still approx 90%. Why? I covered that too several times in this and other threads...
Again, I personally know a handful of people who were diagnosed with covid when it started, who assumed they were GTG, who got very ill recently, several of whom were hospitalized, one so close to death his family was saying their goodbyes and all that. Dude is healthy, active, early 50s:
https://www.facebook.com/WillBrinkOnline/posts/10158208363536517
Hence why the rec is, for those who have had prior covid exposure, getting at least 1 shot of the 2 shot protocol, is warranted.
This is not f-ing rocket science here.
I'm gonna depart this thread now as the level of cognitive dissonance and denial of reality too much for me.
Stay safe out there.
It is also against the law because of it. It was a shallow example and does not apply to vaccinations. Let's not go down that route.
A better analogy is New York, Illinois, and other shit holes claiming their anti-2A laws don't deliver safety as promised because of states that aren't as statist.
I have already explained, over and over, data and real world clinical experience, finds those who have had covid in the past 6-12 months, have minimal protection from Delta. Two, data and clinical experience also finds the vaccines highly effective against all variants so far, less so with Delta, still approx 90%.
That 90% number you keep citing was the first advertised numbers from the initial controlled trials.
The largest study yet to examine the efficacy of COVID vaccines in the wild has just been published by the University of Oxford and UK Office for National Statistics and they did not get those numbers you keep citing. (only one made it to 90% at all but it took two doses and even then did not stay at 90% for very long)
https://i.imgur.com/j79AhSF.jpg
Note that that ^ information is about viral load/infection, as tested, and is not about symptoms or severity of disease. And has not been peer reviewed. Just, for context.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02261-8
Note that that ^ information is about viral load/infection, as tested, and is not about symptoms or severity of disease. And has not been peer reviewed. Just, for context.
And was that other garbage 'peer reviewed'?
Hell no. They were efficacy 'claims' made by the bozos selling the junk.
Just for context...
And was that other garbage 'peer reviewed'?
Hell no. They were efficacy 'claims' made by the bozos selling the junk.
Just for context...
I didn't catch the reference or searchable-specific reference to that "other garbage". What was that? Id' like to look at it
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-20-21, 08:56
This whole thing about anti biotics and selective pressure, that is why I'd rather get DElta while my first shots are best protecting me- or if I have to get a booster, give me the one I didn't get before. I want more than one attack angle/defensive line on the virus. Call me stupid, call me a dumbass. I really don't care. For some reason I can look at complex datasets and systems and I see things that other people say are crap, but end up being true.
Note that that ^ information is about viral load/infection, as tested, and is not about symptoms or severity of disease. And has not been peer reviewed. Just, for context.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02261-8
The results raise questions about whether it could be more effective to have doses of different vaccines, rather than multiple doses of the same one, especially if a third, booster dose is to be considered. Georg Behrens, an immunologist at Hanover Medical School in Germany, says that mixing vaccines could increase their effectiveness. The immune system reacts differently to different types of vaccine — and this could be exploited to trigger a better overall response. “Using a vector-based one first and then something that has no vector, but the same antigen, absolutely makes sense,” says Behrens.
TA-DA, that's what I mean...
They want the booster out before the studies come out in next year that the people that got vax'd early and got Delta and sloughed it off like 99.99% will, have a better immune response than people that had three shots. Pumpernickel (so this is easy to find a year from now).
hotrodder636
08-20-21, 09:51
The worst part is that if you are Federal employee they are dang nearly forcing you to get it, full well knowing that it’s efficacy is going down by the day. While not being fully required yet, they are making it so much of a hassle to not be vaxxed as a Federal employee that you would want to get one. I presume once it is fully FDA approved, it will be a requirement.
At this point, being vaxed, I'd rather actively go out and get the delta variant and get some natural immunity rather than double down on a vax that they are admitting doesn't work.
Between the numbers and data that came out of India on Delta, and the fact that Texas is 'overwhelmed' because of illegal immigrants, they have lost me. And if they have lost me, they have lost a lot of people. I bet the booster is under 40%. Hell, I may skip the regular flu shot that I've gotten for at least 15 years straight.
Same assholes, from the same schools, from the same social circles told us that Kabul safe are ones running the national health care debacle.
I don't doubt that some states block the booster.
P2Vaircrewman
08-20-21, 10:22
Just posted this on another forum.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahros...-vaccines-yet/
Thanks for the read. I have never not gotten the flu vaccine. I feel it is pointless to get a vaccine that is at most 50% effective any given year and I have a far greater chance of not getting the flu. I have gotten both pneumonia vaccines and others but these are for the most part one time vaccinations so I am not a anti vaccination person but all of those I have gotten were not controversial or experimental.
At 77 long term effects are not an issue to me but I can see why younger people of child bearing age might be hesitant. My daughter is a nurse, had the virus and the vaccine after having the virus but right now she is struggling on giving it to my 14 year old granddaughter simply because no one knows the long term effects, 10, 20, 30 years down the road. I think that is a valid concern.
I think the decision with kids is super duper easy. Don't. The common cold is probably more of a risk to children than covid. Different when you're older, different when you're obese, different when you have serious existing conditions
Averageman
08-20-21, 11:05
I think the decision with kids is super duper easy. Don't. The common cold is probably more of a risk to children than covid. Different when you're older, different when you're obese, different when you have serious existing conditions
Following that logic, if I have a strong immune system, my exposure to others is low and I am neither obese, nor do I have no serious existing conditions, regardless of my age, why would I get these shots?
I'm far less likely to be swapping snot under the table than a four year old.
Following that logic, if I have a strong immune system, my exposure to others is low and I am neither obese, nor do I have no serious existing conditions, regardless of my age, why would I get these shots?
I'm far less likely to be swapping snot under the table than a four year old.
I am not aware of data following the disease risk of those with a "strong immune system". Would you mind sharing how that is defined and measured, and what data you are seeing that indicates people with a "strong immune system" very rarely get seriously ill from covid?
I don't care if you get the shot, but, it's silly to compare "I have a strong immune system" to easily plotted basic data following stats such as "age"
And you haven't been paying attention, like, at all, if you think age is completely unrelated to covid illness risk. "Regardless of age" is lol
Averageman
08-20-21, 12:27
I am not aware of data following the disease risk of those with a "strong immune system". Would you mind sharing how that is defined and measured, and what data you are seeing that indicates people with a "strong immune system" very rarely get seriously ill from covid?
I don't care if you get the shot, but, it's silly to compare "I have a strong immune system" to easily plotted basic data following stats such as "age"
And you haven't been paying attention, like, at all, if you think age is completely unrelated to covid illness risk. "Regardless of age" is lol
I simply don't get sick, so if I haven't gotten a flu shot and haven't gotten the flu in thirty years, Mmmmmm why bother?
I'm sixty, I had a recent hospital stay where believe it or not, they decided to drop me off in a Covid Ward to recover. Not a problem, bounced right back and I'm as good as new.
No Mask, No Vax No Problem.
I simply don't get sick, so if I haven't gotten a flu shot and haven't gotten the flu in thirty years, Mmmmmm why bother?
I'm sixty, I had a recent hospital stay where believe it or not, they decided to drop me off in a Covid Ward to recover. Not a problem, bounced right back and I'm as good as new.
No Mask, No Vax No Problem.
Congrats
P2Vaircrewman
08-20-21, 18:24
Before the covid struck I was talking to my PCP during my routine yearly physical. I have been seeing her for 30 years. I said I rarely get sick, colds flu, common illnesses. She said yes all you get is heart issues, triple bypass 22 years ago.
Would you mind sharing how that is defined and measured, and what data you are seeing that indicates people with a "strong immune system" very rarely get seriously ill from covid?
Here lately 'some' of our local media have been talking a LOT about how some hospitals are running out of beds in the ER and they (some in the media) claim it is because of Covid cases.
The morning radio talkshow guy was talking about the same thing just a few days ago when a local Dr called in and started telling him about how understaffed they were. The Doc explained how you can have a lot of beds that 'could' be used for patients but... You need staff to make that happen otherwise you have beds that you can't really use.
This entire Covid crap has been overblown from the very beginning. Remember Cuomo whining and crying about how they 'desperately needed' ventilators or else (insert insane number of people here) people were going to die? Trump got them the ventilators and in the end Cuomo never needed or even used them. Eventually loaned them out to other states that didn't whine about 'the sky is falling' as much as Cuomo did so they never got any of the ventilators the gov was doling out to assist any possible shortages. (until Cuomo sent them the ones he got but never used or needed)
How many did we ultimately give to other countries because they were not 'needed' here in the USA at all? (a bunch - THIS story says we gave away 8,500 of them prior to Bidet taking office: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/01/29/usaid-trump-ventilators-watchdog/ )
Why would we be giving this stuff away if Covid was kicking the ass of everyone it touched as many in the media make it out to be?
And then there was Cuomo crying about not having enough hospital beds. So Trump sends him the damn fully staffed and stocked USNS Comfort hospital ship that was... Never used for a single Covid patient and never really 'needed' at all. Not to mention the hospital tents that got set up and were used for little to nothing that had to do with Covid patients...
https://www.businessinsider.com/field-hospitals-unused-for-coronavirus-shut-down-2020-4
I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of people 'very rarely get seriously ill from covid'. Yes, some DO get seriously ill and require a hospital but in the grand scheme of things it is not as many people as most media outlets would lead you to believe.
Use your brain for a minute and ask yourself, 'If we have this new variant that seems to be getting past the vaccines with not much effort then WHY are States and Governors not lining up begging for the hospital ships or tents like they were just before the election'?
To me - 'Seriously ill' means 'You gotta go to the hospital'.
If Covid was half as bad as some made it out to be - We would be seeing hospital ships, tents, hospitals everywhere adding to their ER / ICU bed capacity but... We are not seeing any of that.
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-20-21, 19:42
It's bad. It is really F'n bad. It is currently burning through Middle GA. A friend of mine who was a very healthy 28 year old K-9 officer just died tonight. Most of the drug squad is out. One of the investigators is on a ventilator. It is killing people left and right around here. People can argue about the efficacy of masks and the vaccines all you want, that's fine. But this shit is real and it is bad.
Okay but let's be straight, there was no way to know right at the beginning as this novel virus spread, if we were going to need ventilators or not.
We gave it away because we learned, once we had the opportunity to do so, that they weren't as useful as we expected. That happens.
Yes, Trump stepped up. But, of course, the media portrayed the opposite, nothing new(s) there. Just propaganda to get Creepy Joe in.
Why _fill in the blank_....all manner of reasons...we know a sht ton more now than we did then being most of the why, I suppose.
Didn't you open this by explaining why hospitals were pushing or at capacity? Isn't at capacity, at capacity? And isn't at capacity at least worthy of attention and maybe something to keep it from getting worse considering it's currently August?
Of course that 'something', what is it? Offering and recommending the vaccine, I suppose?
It's bad. It is really F'n bad. It is currently burning through Middle GA. A friend of mine who was a very healthy 28 year old K-9 officer just died tonight. Most of the drug squad is out. One of the investigators is on a ventilator. It is killing people left and right around here. People can argue about the efficacy of masks and the vaccines all you want, that's fine. But this shit is real and it is bad.
Perspective is everything as I stated in another thread. It's swamping your AO right now. Someone outside could say "It's only a 1 or 2 % fatality rate, that's nothing". But they don't SEE it. That's why, working at a hospital as I do, you SEE those 1-2% types. ANY disease for that matter. A hospital is where you go when sick enough, be it COVID, ALS, cancer, pneumonia, etc. Those "small" statistical numbers poo-poo'd by many aren't so small when it's in your face.
Please understand I'm not being critical of anyone's opinion and I'm not a "Doomer". But this shit is real, and it's not going away. In fact, Round #2 in well underway.
I'm sooooo done with this crap.
[read bottom of my sigline]
P2Vaircrewman
08-20-21, 21:25
I heard an interesting take about the surge in the south, it's hot and people are staying inside in air conditioning facilitating the spread, as soon as it gets cold in the north people will go inside and a surge will start there.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-20-21, 22:07
It's bad. It is really F'n bad. It is currently burning through Middle GA. A friend of mine who was a very healthy 28 year old K-9 officer just died tonight. Most of the drug squad is out. One of the investigators is on a ventilator. It is killing people left and right around here. People can argue about the efficacy of masks and the vaccines all you want, that's fine. But this shit is real and it is bad.
Were they vaccinated? When and with what? Something is going on. Here’s hoping for the best for your buddy.
Were they vaccinated? When and with what? Something is going on. Here’s hoping for the best for your buddy.
Please elaborate. What do you think is going on? Genuinely curious.
This Delta variant is working the reverse of the original one. In the Spring of 2020 the north got ate up with COVID and it moved south this past winter. This Delta crap is starting in the south this summer but will head northward this winter.
Dr Malone discusses why natural immunity and preventing death with early treatment is the way out of this.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/hiTLkIyJMOap/
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-21-21, 10:04
Please elaborate. What do you think is going on? Genuinely curious.
This Delta variant is working the reverse of the original one. In the Spring of 2020 the north got ate up with COVID and it moved south this past winter. This Delta crap is starting in the south this summer but will head northward this winter.
I do think that we are going to see it migrate north as the fall hits and people move indoors. Of course, the northern states will blame the GOP states unvaxed and unmasked for what was going to happen anyways. Masks aren’t going to put a dent into Delta with its ability spread, at least with out mandating fit N95 masks.
The numbers don’t add up- as in Delta went through India, Iceland and the UK with out this kind of death and devastation.
-the press two weeks ago was very good at citing case rates, but deaths and hospitalizations were largely anecdotal.
-The breakthrough cases are getting crazy, but they are anecdotal. The cited two-orders of magnitude reduction for vaxed people doesn’t seem to be holding true. 100 vax’d senators and how many have tested positive and/or gotten sick?
-Large number of vax’d people are testing positive if not getting sick
-We had un-coupled the case rate from deaths a few months ago- ie under 1%, but we now seem to be trending back to 1%
Delta was faster spreading and was less dangerous- but the speed seems still there, but the danger is higher?
I assume Greg’s buddies were vax’d, but even if not, the fact he has two is something like a one in a million.
Maybe the press has just overbaked the danger. I see that most hospitals are staff, not facility limited. I don’t know what to make of that. I think a lot of places haven’t stopped elective surgeries- though I know some have. With the kids, the rise of RSV is complicating the capacity issue for kids.
I can’t tell if the data is just all over the place, or if (really how much) the data is being manipulated, or what really happening. I could see that they are overhyping it, but at the same time I see signs that this is far worse than they are letting on, but there is nothing really we can do, short of another round of lockdowns.
Masks don’t work to protect individuals or really moderate the spread. If you want to whack it, you have to get people away from each other and that is shut downs.
That’s what I mean- and I’m not sure what I mean. I can usually sniff test data pretty well, I’m usually the one at work that sees when a process or test equipment is throwing odd data and out of whack. Something is out of whack.
Either this isn’t delta, but something else
P2Vaircrewman
08-21-21, 10:08
I have been tracking cases in my parish (county) since 8/9/21. Population is about 40,000, 60% black, 39%white, 1% other. Cases since 8/9, 544, deaths 2. State vaccination rate is 39% as of July. I would guess the parish rate is about the same.
I do think that we are going to see it migrate north as the fall hits and people move indoors. Of course, the northern states will blame the GOP states unvaxed and unmasked for what was going to happen anyways. Masks aren’t going to put a dent into Delta with its ability spread, at least with out mandating fit N95 masks.
The numbers don’t add up- as in Delta went through India, Iceland and the UK with out this kind of death and devastation.
-the press two weeks ago was very good at citing case rates, but deaths and hospitalizations were largely anecdotal.
-The breakthrough cases are getting crazy, but they are anecdotal. The cited two-orders of magnitude reduction for vaxed people doesn’t seem to be holding true. 100 vax’d senators and how many have tested positive and/or gotten sick?
-Large number of vax’d people are testing positive if not getting sick
-We had un-coupled the case rate from deaths a few months ago- ie under 1%, but we now seem to be trending back to 1%
Delta was faster spreading and was less dangerous- but the speed seems still there, but the danger is higher?
I assume Greg’s buddies were vax’d, but even if not, the fact he has two is something like a one in a million.
Maybe the press has just overbaked the danger. I see that most hospitals are staff, not facility limited. I don’t know what to make of that. I think a lot of places haven’t stopped elective surgeries- though I know some have. With the kids, the rise of RSV is complicating the capacity issue for kids.
I can’t tell if the data is just all over the place, or if (really how much) the data is being manipulated, or what really happening. I could see that they are overhyping it, but at the same time I see signs that this is far worse than they are letting on, but there is nothing really we can do, short of another round of lockdowns.
Masks don’t work to protect individuals or really moderate the spread. If you want to whack it, you have to get people away from each other and that is shut downs.
That’s what I mean- and I’m not sure what I mean. I can usually sniff test data pretty well, I’m usually the one at work that sees when a process or test equipment is throwing odd data and out of whack. Something is out of whack.
Either this isn’t delta, but something elseDidn't India get hit worse?
Either way a lot of it doesn't add up not just Delta. Take the original strain. My buddy in Serbia was saying outside the original "12 days to stop the spread". They had a lockdown the first few weeks when everyone was trying to understand what this was and how to proceed. After about 3 weeks they have had no mandates, no lockdowns, no social distancing. Here's the info that we know as of right now do what you want. If you feel you must wear a mask then go for it. If you want to be cautious and stay home, ok. Or do like it pre covid. In all that time they had less than 10k deaths
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
The better docs warned us;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement
Speculation vs. what is known
https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/568744-vaccinated-man-dies-in-florida-daughters-share
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-21-21, 15:34
Didn't India get hit worse?
Either way a lot of it doesn't add up not just Delta. Take the original strain. My buddy in Serbia was saying outside the original "12 days to stop the spread". They had a lockdown the first few weeks when everyone was trying to understand what this was and how to proceed. After about 3 weeks they have had no mandates, no lockdowns, no social distancing. Here's the info that we know as of right now do what you want. If you feel you must wear a mask then go for it. If you want to be cautious and stay home, ok. Or do like it pre covid. In all that time they had less than 10k deaths
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
I look at the IHME data for reported deaths and then also excess deaths, and that’s all that I can do. It sure seems that based on population size India got off cheap. Of course the number of deaths in anything in India is high. A better one is to look at Iceland. It’s almost too small of a data set though.
In some ways it seems like the most important precondition, is worrying about being killed by Covid.
In some ways it seems like the most important precondition, is worrying about being killed by Covid.
I suspect that at this point we know enough about the risk factors that folks who have something (or multiple somethings) increasing their risk are aware of it ans thus more worried. Like the article above was an old person (assisted living) with COPD. No pic or mention of bodyweight that I saw, so 2+ serious increases in risk...makes sense he and his family would be worried. For example
P2Vaircrewman
08-21-21, 16:21
Just learned my nephew had it last week, age 66, low body fat, stays in shape, no vaccine. 102 fever for a couple of days, fatigue.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-21-21, 22:16
Just learned my nephew had it last week, age 66, low body fat, stays in shape, no vaccine. 102 fever for a couple of days, fatigue.
How old are you? Is that a B-25 in your avatar?
Buddy who is 50 and had one shot of two(Asrta? He’s in the EU) was tired for a few days and then was fine. Worst cold he can remember. His un-vax’d 16yo daughter powered through it. Took three weeks to test negative.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-21-21, 22:24
Speculation vs. what is known
https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/568744-vaccinated-man-dies-in-florida-daughters-share
Of course the old folks home in CT wanted the guy, they killed off a lot of their clients last year. An unmasked, non-vaxed person and DEsantis killed him? I’d think most people that work in assisted care would be vaxed, and they definitely would be wearing a mask, even in FLA.
Diamondback
08-21-21, 22:27
How old are you? Is that a B-25 in your avatar?
Lockheed P2V Neptune prop/jet hybrid patrol bomber.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-2_Neptune
Of course the old folks home in CT wanted the guy, they killed off a lot of their clients last year. An unmasked, non-vaxed person and DEsantis killed him? I’d think most people that work in assisted care would be vaxed, and they definitely would be wearing a mask, even in FLA.
Huh?
The linked article clearly states
"A fully vaccinated man who resided in a Florida assisted living home died from COVID-19." several times
Huh?
The linked article clearly states
"A fully vaccinated man who resided in a Florida assisted living home died from COVID-19." several timesIt goes on to say....
“He was infected by someone who chose to not get vaccinated and his death was preventable.”
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-22-21, 00:51
Huh?
The linked article clearly states
"A fully vaccinated man who resided in a Florida assisted living home died from COVID-19." several times
It goes on to say....
“He was infected by someone who chose to not get vaccinated and his death was preventable.”
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Exactly, the family blames the death of their dad on un vaxed people and by implication, DeSantis because of his policies- so someone unvaxed and ummasked along with Desantis where responsible.
So you have bad science, bad logic, bad reporting, and bad politics all wrapped up in one article. Really kind of stunning frankly.
Averageman
08-22-21, 01:07
So Mr Mustard in the Drawing Room with the Covid.
Hmmmm.
Now we've got Mystery People infecting old folks in rest homes? Really?
Because this is stupid.
From the article:
"The daughters speculate that he contracted the virus from an unvaccinated person at Carlisle Palm Beach, an assisted living facility in Lantana, Fla."
No reason to suspect a vaccinated person had it and spread it since their vaccinated father caught it and died from it.
Also, Florida causes of death can be interesting if not questioned.
https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/fox-35-investigates-questions-raised-after-fatal-motorcycle-crash-listed-as-covid-19-death
These headlines of the unvaccinated / unmasked being to blame for the jab not working are likely going to continue to trend...sigh.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/08/fully-vaccinated-actress-blames-unmasked-children-breakthrough-covid-diagnosis-deranged-rant-video/
P2Vaircrewman
08-22-21, 09:54
How old are you? Is that a B-25 in your avatar?
Buddy who is 50 and had one shot of two(Asrta? He’s in the EU) was tired for a few days and then was fine. Worst cold he can remember. His un-vax’d 16yo daughter powered through it. Took three weeks to test negative.
77, it is a Lockheed P2V-7 Navy submarine hunter and maritime patrol aircraft, I was a crewman on them 65 t0 71.
These headlines of the unvaccinated / unmasked being to blame for the jab not working are likely going to continue to trend...sigh.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/08/fully-vaccinated-actress-blames-unmasked-children-breakthrough-covid-diagnosis-deranged-rant-video/
They are going ape shit in the obituary condolences with the obituary based on the daughters' "speculation".
Averageman
08-22-21, 12:20
My Son used to specialize in end of life/geriatric care as a Nurse.
I'm just saying to get back to where those patients are cared for means that you were logged in, allowed through the door, made your visit logged out and allowed out.
I've been through the process a couple of times and each time I was impressed with the security.
Now I haven't been there in a year and my Son moved on, but I'm willing to bet, your not coming through the front door, let alone on one of the locked wards without some form of Covid vaccination/Hospital ID, etc.
This whole "blame it on the unvaccinated" is a scam and a fraud, don't believe it.
The blame it on unvaccinated is the press and the woke who cant take responsibility for their own failures and idiocy
If the vaccine works you can’t get it ?
If the vaccine does not work and you can get it why did you get the jab ?
If the new BS of it was never meant to work just reduces it why did they lie about get back to normal when it came out ?
Then it does not matter who gives it to you since we know those poked can shed to !
How about they blame obese people since they are the super sheders ! Being woke wont allow honesty though :)
If the vaccine works you can’t get it ?
Incorrect assumption. Please research what the vaccine was intended to do, and what it does, if you are going to opine on the subject.
If the new BS of it was never meant to work just reduces it why did they lie about get back to normal when it came out ?
Their idea of "normal" is carrying your papers around with you to be allowed to do things.
My idea of normal is, now that anybody who wants can be vaccinated, if you want it, you get it, and then we can go back to no-mask normal and everybody can worry about themselves and not anybody else. Want the jab, get it, don't, don't, no need to share personal choices.
But, the jab is not and was never intended to completely prevent people from being able to catch covid. If you think that you haven't been paying attention. The purpose is to reduce the odds of getting seriously ill or dying if you get it, and maybe reduce your chances of getting it. Kind of like how the seasonal flu shot has been for a long time now
Incorrect assumption. Please research what the vaccine was intended to do, and what it does, if you are going to opine on the subject.
Their idea of "normal" is carrying your papers around with you to be allowed to do things.
My idea of normal is, now that anybody who wants can be vaccinated, if you want it, you get it, and then we can go back to no-mask normal and everybody can worry about themselves and not anybody else. Want the jab, get it, don't, don't, no need to share personal choices.
But, the jab is not and was never intended to completely prevent people from being able to catch covid. If you think that you haven't been paying attention. The purpose is to reduce the odds of getting seriously ill or dying if you get it, and maybe reduce your chances of getting it. Kind of like how the seasonal flu shot has been for a long time now
Which federal agency adheres to the idea of normal you just stated?
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-22-21, 15:52
First we questioned the definition of the word “is“.
Then we screwed with the definition of “he or she“.
Now we are changing the definition of “vaccine“.
And try to blame people for misunderstanding a word everybody knew the meaning of.
Just getting your shot and living your life isn’t enough for them. They need you to mask up. They want you to carry a card. They will keep moving the line. All because of their failures.
And the path forward is another shot of stuff that they admit doesn’t work while refusing to do any serious work on natural immunity. And 18 months and we are still doing the mask virtue signaling instead of having put the resources in to actually get N95s for everyone on a consistent basis.
All brought to you by the same group of assholes who brought you Afghanistan 2021.
Which federal agency adheres to the idea of normal you just stated?
I am not aware of any federal agency adhering to any of my ideas on anything...what made you think otherwise??
Now we are changing the definition of “vaccine“.
Now "we" are demonstrating that we had no idea how different vaccines worked until 2020 ^
Would you like to look up your own pre-2020 references to the seasonal influenza vaccine showing that it works exactly as I stated above, or should I provide them for you?
Some vaccines, like the flu shot we should all be familiar with, and covid, are and were not intended to completely prevent all receivers from catching the virus/disease.
The effectiveness of the covid vaccine, exactly like flu, is the % of the time/people for whom sypmtoms are lessoned and they they do not get serious ill, do not need hospitalized, and do not die
Which federal agency adheres to the idea of normal you just stated?
Biden considers vaccine mandate for interstate travel:
https://humanevents.com/2021/08/13/biden-weighs-vaccine-mandate-for-interstate-travel/
Biden already ordered mandatory vaccine for servicemembers, federal workers, nursing home employees.
New York City is requiring proof of vaccination to do pretty much anything.
What exactly do you think the new norm will look like/is becoming?
Andy
Averageman
08-22-21, 16:20
Incorrect assumption. Please research what the vaccine was intended to do, and what it does, if you are going to opine on the subject.
That certainly wasn't the tune they were singing when they rolled this out;
As a matter of fact, I heard NO ONE say this is only good for 120 days, or you'll need another one in six months. This was being touted as if it were the second coming, suddenly people start getting Covid who've had the vax and you break out the small print.
That certainly wasn't the tune they were singing when they rolled this out;
As a matter of fact, I heard NO ONE say this is only good for 120 days, or you'll need another one in six months. This was being touted as if it were the second coming, suddenly people start getting Covid who've had the vax and you break out the small print.
When they rolled this out, NO ONE had taken a statistically significant sample size, vaccinated them, and then waited 120 days to see what happened.
You do understand that you can't know what will happen after X days until you actually have people vaccinated and then X days go by...right?
It would help if you knew literally anything at all about the topic before spouting off. Seriously. You're like the antis talking about 30 second clipazines
They demand compliance so we can go back to normal...it's BECAUSE of compliance we will never get back to normal.
Where are the headlines of folks praising the polio vaccine for lessening their symptoms to some limping...Wait till we see how many pro / college sports don't allow the unvax'd to attend. Folks need to check out what is happening in Australia & France if you want to see the end game.
Averageman
08-22-21, 17:16
When they rolled this out, NO ONE had taken a statistically significant sample size, vaccinated them, and then waited 120 days to see what happened.
You do understand that you can't know what will happen after X days until you actually have people vaccinated and then X days go by...right?
It would help if you knew literally anything at all about the topic before spouting off. Seriously. You're like the antis talking about 30 second clipazines
But they were quick to give you the shot.
So you're now admiting that no one really had a clue what the side effects might have been? So no "Modeling" was done with computer simulations to help predict the time line? No Control Group studies, just go for it?
You come out with your defense of a vaccination with more and more issues and now requires another shot to do the job.
But in the meantime, you can get Covid, pass Covid to loved ones and end up in the Hospital AFTER being vaccinated.
It would help if you knew literally anything at all about the topic before spouting off.
It would help if you quit trying to bail out an arguement that is sinking out from underneath you.
Averageman
08-22-21, 17:16
Double Tap
SomeOtherGuy
08-22-21, 18:29
Their idea of "normal" is carrying your papers around with you to be allowed to do things.
My idea of normal is, now that anybody who wants can be vaccinated, if you want it, you get it, and then we can go back to no-mask normal and everybody can worry about themselves and not anybody else. Want the jab, get it, don't, don't, no need to share personal choices.
Which federal agency adheres to the idea of normal you just stated?
The Federal Government is SUPPOSED to answer to the people. It says so in the Constitution.
I'm not a naive 4th grader and I'm well aware of how things really work, but jsbhike, you seem to be stating directly that we are being ruled by de facto foreigners who don't follow the written law. Can I quote you on that?
As far as vaccine passports - it's pretty well evident now that the vaccine doesn't prevent vaccinated people from spreading the virus. It may keep them from personally getting sick, or sicker, but it doesn't prevent spread and may even facilitate it. There is no legitimate quarantine or public-health reason to require vaccination given this set of facts. The "vaccine passports" are 100% totalitarianism. For travel safety, vaccination does little or nothing, while pre-travel testing (although it sucks) could do some good. Pre-travel testing is already a common requirement, and in many places is being required even for the vaccinated. So what legitimate purpose do you (anyone) think vaccination requirements could have?
But they were quick to give you the shot.
So you're now admiting that no one really had a clue what the side effects might have been? So no "Modeling" was done with computer simulations to help predict the time line? No Control Group studies, just go for it?
You come out with your defense of a vaccination with more and more issues and now requires another shot to do the job.
But in the meantime, you can get Covid, pass Covid to loved ones and end up in the Hospital AFTER being vaccinated.
It would help if you knew literally anything at all about the topic before spouting off.
It would help if you quit trying to bail out an arguement that is sinking out from underneath you.
Nobody knew what the long term side effects would be when the long term had not existed yet. That's not new.
You can model whatever you want, you don't KNOW until you know. Is this news to you?
I come out with simple facts and explanations about how things work, you can like it or not, IDGAF.
Yes, you can have a bad time after the vaccine.
You know what else? You can go to a HSLD class every month and have five AR's in your bedroom and a perfect home defense plan and carry and be a Master class shooter and still get killed by a criminal.
You can drive a top safety pick rated car, defensively, with your seat belt on, the whole nine yards, and die in a car accidents.
If you don't understand how odds and stakes work, maybe you should just sign off until you take a long hard look at how reality works. It's not all rainbows and unicorns and "pick this and you are 100% guaranteed to be 100% safe". Real life isn't binary and perfect like that
The vaccine works or doesn’t work INDEPENDENTLY of what any of the tyrants want to use covid panic for.
How prone covid was to mutate and how that could change efficacy was absolutely a subject before the vaccine even came out.
Did we hear a lot about breakthroughs at first? Or has that only become a thing after the Delta started spreading?
...it's pretty well evident now that the vaccine doesn't prevent vaccinated people from spreading the virus.
There is a percentage of protection from infection between 0 and 100, less than 100 isn’t the same as 0. People who don’t get infected can’t spread it or get sick.
So what legitimate purpose do you (anyone) think vaccination requirements could have?
Why do you think anyone here is?
One can both believe the vaccine is helpful and be opposed to mandates and passports.
Incorrect assumption. Please research what the vaccine was intended to do, and what it does, if you are going to opine on the subject.
Their idea of "normal" is carrying your papers around with you to be allowed to do things.
My idea of normal is, now that anybody who wants can be vaccinated, if you want it, you get it, and then we can go back to no-mask normal and everybody can worry about themselves and not anybody else. Want the jab, get it, don't, don't, no need to share personal choices.
But, the jab is not and was never intended to completely prevent people from being able to catch covid. If you think that you haven't been paying attention. The purpose is to reduce the odds of getting seriously ill or dying if you get it, and maybe reduce your chances of getting it. Kind of like how the seasonal flu shot has been for a long time now
Very succinctly states exactly what the "vaccine" was expected to do. And it has apparently been decent at it. Of course the control groups used in the studies are easily being outnumbered by the current surge in the real world, so that measure of success will be reduced. Some will get hospitalized. And yes, some have died.
My opinion? I think the jab is prudent (got the J&J) but I also 110% believe that it is a personal choice. There should be NO legal/criminal/societal repercussions for not getting one. Further, I am a little disappointed that the original predictions of 95% (or so) being GTG after the vaccine are not quite panning out. My wife works at a hospital and as of the other night one of the RN night supervisors (who must be on top of the census) told her that almost 50% of the COVID admissions in the last few days were previously vaccinated folks. Keep in mind that the rosy early predictions were considerably better than what has panned out so far this summer. Maybe the fact that it is a different variant and therefore the vaccine may not sufficiently cover it (like the flu vaccines) is coming into play? I dunno, but I am soooo over this shit.
One can both believe the vaccine is helpful and be opposed to mandates and passports.
Precisely
The Federal Government is SUPPOSED to answer to the people. It says so in the Constitution.
I'm not a naive 4th grader and I'm well aware of how things really work, but jsbhike, you seem to be stating directly that we are being ruled by de facto foreigners who don't follow the written law. Can I quote you on that?
As far as vaccine passports - it's pretty well evident now that the vaccine doesn't prevent vaccinated people from spreading the virus. It may keep them from personally getting sick, or sicker, but it doesn't prevent spread and may even facilitate it. There is no legitimate quarantine or public-health reason to require vaccination given this set of facts. The "vaccine passports" are 100% totalitarianism. For travel safety, vaccination does little or nothing, while pre-travel testing (although it sucks) could do some good. Pre-travel testing is already a common requirement, and in many places is being required even for the vaccinated. So what legitimate purpose do you (anyone) think vaccination requirements could have?
I asked a question which isn't making a statement.
Buddy just emailed me he was fired due to vaccine mandate which he refused...this is going to explode when the FDA bogusly excludes long term human studies for approval that should be coming soon.
I foresee a catastrophic situation especially in the healthcare industry if hospitals implement this BS.
Precisely
I would say this is the majority of Americans.
Been seen quite a few nurses saying NO to the poke and saying they will get fired ? No idea how large it really is but is interesting
For sure get fired collect unemployment then sew for wrongful termination etc...
SomeOtherGuy
08-23-21, 08:41
Buddy just emailed me he was fired due to vaccine mandate which he refused...this is going to explode when the FDA bogusly excludes long term human studies for approval that should be coming soon.
I foresee a catastrophic situation especially in the healthcare industry if hospitals implement this BS.
Been seen quite a few nurses saying NO to the poke and saying they will get fired ? No idea how large it really is but is interesting
For sure get fired collect unemployment then sew for wrongful termination etc...
Seeing lots of anecdotal claims that hospitals are hugely short on nurses. It's a combination of factors, including just plain fatigue and other pandemic-related reasons, but vaccine mandates are contributing too. Or so it seems.
Middle of this page of comments has one of this sort of claim:
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243341&page=4
Here's a current article talking about the same issue for nursing home staff:
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-health-watch/how-covid-vaccine-rule-nursing-home-staff-could-backfire-michigan
@Honu, there is no certainty that a nurse will either get unemployment payments or have any ability to sue for wrongful termination. Depending on the state law, and possibly a federal mandate for hospitals to get Medicare reimbursement, the nurse might not have a claim. I'm not saying I like or support that, just saying that's how it looks from a strictly legal perspective.
If the nursing shortages are real, that will be moot soon because systems will be desperate to hire nurses, and federal mandate or not, something will be done. I wouldn't be shocked if religious exemptions switch from very difficult to easier than a "medical marijuana card."
Seeing lots of anecdotal claims that hospitals are hugely short on nurses. It's a combination of factors, including just plain fatigue and other pandemic-related reasons, but vaccine mandates are contributing too. Or so it seems.
Middle of this page of comments has one of this sort of claim:
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243341&page=4
Here's a current article talking about the same issue for nursing home staff:
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-health-watch/how-covid-vaccine-rule-nursing-home-staff-could-backfire-michigan
@Honu, there is no certainty that a nurse will either get unemployment payments or have any ability to sue for wrongful termination. Depending on the state law, and possibly a federal mandate for hospitals to get Medicare reimbursement, the nurse might not have a claim. I'm not saying I like or support that, just saying that's how it looks from a strictly legal perspective.
If the nursing shortages are real, that will be moot soon because systems will be desperate to hire nurses, and federal mandate or not, something will be done. I wouldn't be shocked if religious exemptions switch from very difficult to easier than a "medical marijuana card."I heard from someone in the nursing field that "they" are looking to bring in Filipino nurses. This was told to me by a former nurse who now runs an at home nursing staff. She heard it from friends who still work in hospitals. However, this doesn't actually mean it's legit. Rumors grow legs and what starts as one hired Filipino nurse ends up as something else so who knows. Maybe it's true, maybe partially. The world has certainly flipped on its head.
Also just want to add that a shortage of any employees doesn't necessarily mean anything. There's always ways around it and there's always someone willing to do the work.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
FDA approval = more mandates. Count on it.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/08/bidens-surgeon-general-says-covid-vaccine-fda-approval-will-likely-lead-mandates-video/
https://www.foxbusiness.com/healthcare/fda-grants-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-full-approval
SomeOtherGuy
08-23-21, 09:09
And FDA approval is truly the gold standard that a new drug is safe, and won't have any deadly side effects whatsoever! /sarc
Vioxx had full FDA approval, and was on the market and heavily used for 5 years.
https://www.npr.org/series/5033105/vioxx-the-downfall-of-a-drug
https://www.npr.org/2007/11/10/5470430/timeline-the-rise-and-fall-of-vioxx
https://affiliates.legalexaminer.com/health/vioxx-killed-half-a-million-the-facts-are-grim/
Full approval should have changed the legal status dramatically, but the actual law on EUA drugs was simply being ignored since Biden's enthronement, so little has changed. Media pressure and snark from "I'm better than you" types will now move from 11 to 12.
Curious, does anyone know if full approval affects the immunity from liability that was granted for the EUA vaccines?
Rifleman_04
08-23-21, 09:11
I heard from someone in the nursing field that "they" are looking to bring in Filipino nurses. This was told to me by a former nurse who now runs an at home nursing staff. She heard it from friends who still work in hospitals. However, this doesn't actually mean it's legit. Rumors grow legs and what starts as one hired Filipino nurse ends up as something else so who knows. Maybe it's true, maybe partially. The world has certainly flipped on its head.
Also just want to add that a shortage of any employees doesn't necessarily mean anything. There's always ways around it and there's always someone willing to do the work.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
That predates covid. At least the last 10 years in my area.
FDA approval = more mandates. Count on it.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/08/bidens-surgeon-general-says-covid-vaccine-fda-approval-will-likely-lead-mandates-video/
https://www.foxbusiness.com/healthcare/fda-grants-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-full-approvalI've been saying it in conversations with friends. Mandates are going to be sooner rather than later and it will be extremely hard to avoid. I've already been reading that insurance companies are planning on not covering you if you get sick from covid and end up in the hospital. Very few people can afford to even take up space in the waiting room let alone in the ER. Of course many people will just default or attempt to apply for bankruptcy, but that's not always guaranteed. I wouldn't doubt if there will be liens put on properties. Then of course major financial institutions, corporate, fortune 500, ... I can see corporate mandating franchises to have proof of vaccine prior to allowing the franchise.
It's not overnight but unless you live in the middle of nowhere and don't associate with anyone..... unless youre Richard Proenneke... you'll eventually need to get the vaccine.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Brought to you by the rubber stamp queen known for such hits as oxy and fent:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/02/03/janet-woodcocks-failure-fda-opioid-epidemic-column/4352787001/
What could go wrong??
That predates covid. At least the last 10 years in my area.I know. It's been happening everywhere but there's no shortage of people from other countries who ate willing to come and try their hand at the American dream.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Pfizer was just FDA approved.
The ceo was indicating boosters would only make sense around 8+ mths after natural or vaccinated initial immunity.
Also that initially only immunocompromised, but would be recommended for 60+ next most likely. (This is also what my doctor said just last week)
As to big pharma making money, he said the shots are under $20. Point being that it's not a profit source for the company. That's probably down around costs.
As to efficacy, he reinforced that it is still extremely effective against the original variant it was designed for. And still very beneficial for Delta, though it does make the booster a good idea.
Yep, he's the head of the company, what else do we think he would say. At the same time this matches but I've heard from just about every other source.
That said, I was very happy to get vaccinated (pfizer). And if boosters make sense I will get one. I know people dying from this stuff.
Have nieces who are nurses working at local hospitals, big outbreak. Yep, its 98+% unvaccinated, but the outbreaks are real. Our local hospital in my county just requested a mobile morgue. ICU is 95 plus percent full, and regular beds are 90% full.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-23-21, 09:35
First shot was $1billion. Each shot after that is a couple bucks. Or that is the idea. Not saying that they are doing it for the money, but every shot makes more money than the last one and make all the ones before it more profitable.
All getting vaxed now does is set up another visit in 8 months…
They need to start reporting widely what the percentage of new cases are vax’d versus unvaxed. We have anecdotal evidence that is now quite dated.
Heck, we had nursing shortages before the pandemic. And in 18months, how many hospital beds did we create? How many nurses and RTs did we quick-dip to attack this pandemic. It’s like fighting WWII with the ships we had on DEc 7th.
Averageman
08-23-21, 09:39
Now I predict we will begin a game of "Covid Clue".
Where random players will be blamed for being unvaccinated and passing the virus on to others, of course these modern "Typhoid Mary's" will remain unknown and a complete mystery to everyone.
Mr. Mustard in the Library with the Covid-19.
I expect grainy film footage to be included just to further scare the Ninny's.
Mild illness doesn't always mean that one gets sick and then immediately gets better.
Long COVID symptoms are real, and is estimated to affect 10-30% of people who have mild cases of COVID.
I know several people that are suffering from it.
My son was a normal 25 year old with no health issues when he contracted COVID the week before Thanksgiving last year in 2020. He suffered from a mild headache, fatigue, the COVID cough for 9 days, and lost taste and smell. He finally started to regain taste and smell in January, but it came back extremely altered.
The slightest whiff of onions, particularly cooked onions, garlic, coffee, and almost every other spice made him nauseous to the point of vomiting until May 2021 as they smell like a decaying corpse. He could not enter restaurants or stores with deli sections until then. He still can't consume them.
He has been unable to eat anything but pasta, cheese, tomato sauce, and pineapple, as other items taste like motor oil or plastic. Chicken is particularly foul to him. He has lost 35 lbs. He is 6'00" and down to 150 lbs.
This isn't exactly something you rub some dirt on and walk off.
Averageman
08-23-21, 11:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4rXoxd62fk
Because this needs to be said and heard.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-23-21, 11:25
NCOs versus commissioned officers?
My wife was having our daughter a bit early in early July (long time ago), and the doc that came in was a intern. She does her initial exam and when it done my wife tell’s her that no offense, but intern won’t be delivering the baby, the interns boss will be. The intern should have clued in that all the nurses addressed my wife by her first name… RHIP. Interns in July have been a doctor two weeks longer than you have ;).
Nurses get it done and Nurse Practitioners and Physician Asst. are the future of primary care.
https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-vaccine-efficacy-two-doses-shots-pfizer-astrazeneca-2021-8?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=sf-bi-ti&fbclid=IwAR1IxTSIhj5xuOxXHCXq8w4GjQweOrvGdLQkFAyeVrTYLhj-KjlXj7nMItA
Don’t know if that is just an article on previous linked study, but -want the best protection? Get fully vaxed and also have been infected - that gives the best protection. Now they say that no one should go out and get infected even if vaxed since there still is a chance of a bad outcome- but that assumes that the follow ons to delta aren’t more dangerous. If they are, vaxed and recovered would be the best way to survive that. Probably. Little game theory and immunology and evolutionary theory there all kind of wrapped into one…
Why is it that the ones pushing for forced vaccinations, aren’t even fully vaccinated themselves?
Only around 60% of the CDCs employees are vaccinated. I wonder if Fauci is vaccinated?
Even though Pfizer announced it will require all employees to be vaccinated, leaked documents confirm that 20% of US Pfizer employees remain unvaccinated.
Biden administration announced that Whitehouse staff will not be required to get vaccinated.
So what gives?
Perhaps certain elitists, are just completely immune, lol
But, in all seriousness, these are all just a few, of many red flags people should be questioning.
Adrenaline_6
08-23-21, 14:39
Why is it that the ones pushing for forced vaccinations, aren’t even fully vaccinated themselves?
Only around 60% of the CDCs employees are vaccinated. I wonder if Fauci is vaccinated?
Even though Pfizer announced it will require all employees to be vaccinated, leaked documents confirm that 20% of US Pfizer employees remain unvaccinated.
Biden administration announced that Whitehouse staff will not be required to get vaccinated.
So what gives?
Perhaps certain elitists, are just completely immune, lol
But, in all seriousness, these are all just a few, of many red flags people should be questioning.
This is also what gives me a wtf moment. Seriously, how is anyone alright with these circumstances?
davidjinks
08-23-21, 14:45
Most of the people in this country ARE NOT alright with any of this.
The problem is those who speak out against it get destroyed with multi-pronged attacks via msm, social media, ignorant leftists, et al.
This is also what gives me a wtf moment. Seriously, how is anyone alright with these circumstances?
Most of the people in this country ARE NOT alright with any of this.
The problem is those who speak out against it get destroyed with multi-pronged attacks via msm, social media, ignorant leftists, et al.
Exactly!
The simple fact is, we are ALL under attack, right now!
Non compliance seems to be our only viable solution, to this mess.
Nobody is injecting me, or mine with nothing! My line in the sand is drawn!
In a world where anyone, who questions the narrative gets silenced....how can one believe anything they even say, or that their intentions, are not in fact nefarious?
Biden couldn't wait to ask employers to mandate...gonna get uber stupid.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/08/biden-calls-private-sector-companies-mandate-covid-vaccine-employees-following-fdas-pfizer-approval-video/
Biden couldn't wait to ask employers to mandate...gonna get uber stupid.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/08/biden-calls-private-sector-companies-mandate-covid-vaccine-employees-following-fdas-pfizer-approval-video/
While I am wholeheartedly against forced vaccinations using ANY type of coercion (ranging from holding you down all the way to you get fired, can't fly, can't shop here, etc.), if we're gonna go that route then in order to receive welfare/EBT you have to get the jab. That's right, not just us gainfully employed folks but the non-contributors/leeches too! "Lawdy-dawdy-everybody" as they used to say in the Army.
It's not overnight but unless you live in the middle of nowhere and don't associate with anyone..... unless youre Richard Proenneke... you'll eventually need to get the vaccine.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Not...
If you are self employed or actually OWN the business - Nobody is telling or forcing you to do jack.
Not nearly everyone lives in the same world you do my friend. :)
Not...
If you are self employed or actually OWN the business - Nobody is telling or forcing you to do jack.
Not nearly everyone lives in the same world you do my friend. :)
Depends on your business.
I work from home, Im a manager of a small business. The only other person is my boss and he works from his house and has no interest in vaccines either. I don't fly, don't go to sporting events and couldn't give a shit about eating out at restaurants. Basically I can get away with not getting any kind of shots but I still guarantee that sooner or later there will be a reason I will have to. Say if insurance starts requiring it.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Depends on your business.
I work from home, Im a manager of a small business. The only other person is my boss and he works from his house and has no interest in vaccines either. I don't fly, don't go to sporting events and couldn't give a shit about eating out at restaurants. Basically I can get away with not getting any kind of shots but I still guarantee that sooner or later there will be a reason I will have to. Say if insurance starts requiring it.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Funny thing about insurance is that yes the cost may increase depending on circumstances but someone will sell you a policy.
I like to have liability insurance due to having Dobermans around. Most insurance companies will tell you in a heartbeat that 'nope - anything related to them is NOT covered'. My Nationwide agent went so far as to tell me that NO insurance company would cover liability with respect to them due to the breed.
That was a crock. State Farm will gladly take my money with no such exclusions. :)
Glad to hear about your employment situation. Freedom is damn awesome is it not? :cool:
I've been saying it in conversations with friends. Mandates are going to be sooner rather than later and it will be extremely hard to avoid. I've already been reading that insurance companies are planning on not covering you if you get sick from covid and end up in the hospital. Very few people can afford to even take up space in the waiting room let alone in the ER. Of course many people will just default or attempt to apply for bankruptcy, but that's not always guaranteed. I wouldn't doubt if there will be liens put on properties. Then of course major financial institutions, corporate, fortune 500, ... I can see corporate mandating franchises to have proof of vaccine prior to allowing the franchise.
It's not overnight but unless you live in the middle of nowhere and don't associate with anyone..... unless youre Richard Proenneke... you'll eventually need to get the vaccine.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
A couple things here from a small business owner. Number 1 is that I will not force my employees to get the jab. 100,000 face to face transactions since COVID started and not one of my 20 employees (or their immediate family) have tested positive. Most are not vaccinated. I paid Blue Cross over $100K last year for our medical coverage. They can kiss that goodbye if they mandate my employees get vaccinated or if they deny COVID related coverage. I'm not the only small business that will say the same. They be on pretty thin ice legally to force COVID vaccines when proof of other vaccines are not currently required for coverage.
Any link to articles showing plans to deny coverage of unvaccinated by insurance companies? They will have to get something through Congress because the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act began prohibiting the use of health status in any group health insurance policy. The Affordable Care Act prevents insurers from pricing plans according to health – with one exception: smoking status.
Diamondback
08-24-21, 03:24
Me: "We're NOT fast approaching Revelation 'Mark of the Beast' territory. Change my mind."
World: "CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!"
:(
A couple things here from a small business owner. Number 1 is that I will not force my employees to get the jab. 100,000 face to face transactions since COVID started and not one of my 20 employees (or their immediate family) have tested positive. Most are not vaccinated. I paid Blue Cross over $100K last year for our medical coverage. They can kiss that goodbye if they mandate my employees get vaccinated or if they deny COVID related coverage. I'm not the only small business that will say the same. They be on pretty thin ice legally to force COVID vaccines when proof of other vaccines are not currently required for coverage.
Any link to articles showing plans to deny coverage of unvaccinated by insurance companies? They will have to get something through Congress because the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act began prohibiting the use of health status in any group health insurance policy. The Affordable Care Act prevents insurers from pricing plans according to health – with one exception: smoking status.
Been all over the news in the last two weeks. Everything from higher premiums to considering it "too risky" to insure, which can be done.
I doubt they'll feel your 100k. Like taking a drop out of the ocean.
One thing I learned is everyone had a price and in the end it's always money. People comply when hit in the wallet
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
https://citizenfreepress.com/column-2/top-immunologist-and-pro-vaccine-doctor-byram-bidle-issues-warning-the-spike-protein-in-covid-vaccine-can-kill-you/
https://thehighwire.com/videos/mrna-vaccine-inventor-calls-for-stop-of-covid-vax/
I don’t even understand how this can even be a debate? When the inventor of the MRNA vaccine, says it’s going to kill you.
....how can one believe anything they even say, or that their intentions, are not in fact nefarious?
Tyrants will use ANYTHING to increase their authoritarian power. None of them want covid panic and that power that comes with it to end.
This doesn’t prove or disprove anything about the vaccine.
Been all over the news in the last two weeks. Everything from higher premiums to considering it "too risky" to insure, which can be done.
I doubt they'll feel your 100k. Like taking a drop out of the ocean.
One thing I learned is everyone had a price and in the end it's always money. People comply when hit in the wallet
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Isn’t that known as manufactured consent? Media does this all the time, and it ramped up with covid.
They put out a premise like “jobs will require vaccines” to get people used to that idea before the thing is ever put into place.
Operation mockingbird never ended, just got more streamlined.
Isn’t that known as manufactured consent? Media does this all the time, and it ramped up with covid.
They put out a premise like “jobs will require vaccines” to get people used to that idea before the thing is ever put into place.
Operation mockingbird never ended, just got more streamlined.Probably. Im not here to push people into vaccines by saying ...hey sooner or later you'll have to anyway. I don't want it, I just think it's inevitable. If we see a large portion of the population defy it maybe the gov backs down but obviously that's not going to happen since 50% of the population already got vaccinated. I'm just not optimistic about it being dropped.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
I hear ya. I’m interviewing around for a new gig and turning down anyone with that as a requirement.
I’ve been talking to my son about the possibility of his work requiring it. He is fresh out of vocational school, been working at Cummins for three months.
I just hope if this comes up, he will listen to me, and walk out! No job is worth a death sentence!
Variant boosters on the way...folks are gonna be pin cushions.
https://www.foxnews.com/health/pfizer-bourla-covid-19-vaccine-resistant-variant-likely-emerge
Averageman
08-24-21, 12:37
You know if they haven't messed this up already (at a level which we might not discover for decades) we are bound to;
One part of me wants to blame all of this on hysteria and the Human Condition.
Another; well another goes other places looking for reasons why the elite might wwant you vaccinated and none of those are good.
Diamondback
08-24-21, 12:43
You know if they haven't messed this up already (at a level which we might not discover for decades) we are bound to;
One part of me wants to blame all of this on hysteria and the Human Condition.
Another; well another goes other places looking for reasons why the elite might wwant you vaccinated and none of those are good.
As we used to say over at Redstate That Was, "embrace the healing power of 'and'"--those two conditions are not mutually exclusive.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-24-21, 13:33
https://citizenfreepress.com/column-2/top-immunologist-and-pro-vaccine-doctor-byram-bidle-issues-warning-the-spike-protein-in-covid-vaccine-can-kill-you/
https://thehighwire.com/videos/mrna-vaccine-inventor-calls-for-stop-of-covid-vax/
I don’t even understand how this can even be a debate? When the inventor of the MRNA vaccine, says it’s going to kill you.
Well, I guess that solves the world over population problem, or the guy is wrong. I’m going with him being wrong.
The virus isn’t dangerous, but part of it is going to kill us all. That’s what you have to believe.
The vaccine roll out has been a cock up from one end to the other. It underperforms, but it does perform. My biggest issue with the booster is that it is doing the same thing and hoping for a different result. In reality, because of the urgent need, I think that they pushed the schedule. It really should have been first shot, then the second shot in six months- but to get better protection faster, they shortened the booster to two weeks. That’s really fast for a vaccine.
Well, I guess that solves the world over population problem, or the guy is wrong. I’m going with him being wrong.
The virus isn’t dangerous, but part of it is going to kill us all. That’s what you have to believe.
The vaccine roll out has been a cock up from one end to the other. It underperforms, but it does perform. My biggest issue with the booster is that it is doing the same thing and hoping for a different result. In reality, because of the urgent need, I think that they pushed the schedule. It really should have been first shot, then the second shot in six months- but to get better protection faster, they shortened the booster to two weeks. That’s really fast for a vaccine.
What your saying does make sense, nobody wants to believe that the powers that be, are trying to exterminate the majority of the worlds population.
But, I don’t believe in coincidences.
And there have been just far too many coincidences, red flags, and fraud transpiring since this whole plan-demic began! Some of this fraud has personally affected me!
If there truly is nothing nefarious about this whole ordeal, then why are Doctors, Virologists, and Scientists all over the globe, who speak out about the obvious dangers..being censored, silenced, and attacked, in unprecedented fashion?
You don’t censor, silence, or attack professional individuals, who know exactly what they are talking about, unless there is something to hide!
I truly do hope I’m totally wrong, and if I am...I will be the first to admit it. Too bad, every sense in my body is telling me I’m not! When my gut speaks, I listen...it usually is right.
Averageman
08-24-21, 14:10
Well, I guess that solves the world over population problem, or the guy is wrong. I’m going with him being wrong.
The virus isn’t dangerous, but part of it is going to kill us all. That’s what you have to believe.
The vaccine roll out has been a cock up from one end to the other. It underperforms, but it does perform. My biggest issue with the booster is that it is doing the same thing and hoping for a different result. In reality, because of the urgent need, I think that they pushed the schedule. It really should have been first shot, then the second shot in six months- but to get better protection faster, they shortened the booster to two weeks. That’s really fast for a vaccine.
No body wants to believe what the good Doctor is saying in that article, but if we are honest with ourselves, how well are things being reported, what are the side effects and what are we looking at long term.
The fertility thing is pretty damned scary.
No body wants to believe what the good Doctor is saying in that article, but if we are honest with ourselves, how well are things being reported, what are the side effects and what are we looking at long term.
The fertility thing is pretty damned scary.
If you ask me, there isn’t one thing about that article, that isn’t damn scary.
I know this isn’t a source, that is very popular with a lot of people, but Dr Shawn Brooks is a professional, who knows what he’s talking about. Scary shit.
https://www.infowars.com/posts/must-watch-dr-sean-brooks-warns-vaccinated-will-die-soon/
I’ve been talking to my son about the possibility of his work requiring it. He is fresh out of vocational school, been working at Cummins for three months.
I just hope if this comes up, he will listen to me, and walk out! No job is worth a death sentence!
Death sentence?
That's how you get nearly everybody to completely ignore anything you have to say.
FTR
Death sentence?
That's how you get nearly everybody to completely ignore anything you have to say.
FTR
Well, if the vaccines actually do impair, or shut down your immune system, then what other more acceptable term would you call it?
The world is full of viruses, without a healthy immune system every virus is deadly.
P2Vaircrewman
08-24-21, 17:18
Under section 564 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C Act), when the Secretary of HHS declares that an emergency use authorization is appropriate, FDA may authorize unapproved medical products or unapproved uses of approved medical products to be used in an emergency to diagnose, treat, or prevent serious or life-threatening diseases or conditions caused by CBRN threat agents when certain criteria are met, including there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives. The HHS declaration to support such use must be based on one of four types of determinations of threats or potential threats by the Secretary of HHS, Homeland Security, or Defense.
Now there is an FDA approved drug, if you follow the letter of the law J&J and Moderna lose their EUA can no longer be used.
https://www.fda.gov/emergency-prepar...tion#abouteuas
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-24-21, 17:37
Death sentence?
That's how you get nearly everybody to completely ignore anything you have to say.
FTR
If the vaccine were as bad as people fear, we’d be seeing a lot more issues with it alraedy. Reading their lit, the damage is down with in three weeks. And……So now, like most conspiracies, we’ll move the goal posts. Like I said, this is a crappy vaccine (effectiveness) and the roll out SUCKED. But it isn’t a de-population weapon of mass destruction.
Under section 564 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C Act), when the Secretary of HHS declares that an emergency use authorization is appropriate, FDA may authorize unapproved medical products or unapproved uses of approved medical products to be used in an emergency to diagnose, treat, or prevent serious or life-threatening diseases or conditions caused by CBRN threat agents when certain criteria are met, including there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives. The HHS declaration to support such use must be based on one of four types of determinations of threats or potential threats by the Secretary of HHS, Homeland Security, or Defense.
Now there is an FDA approved drug, if you follow the letter of the law J&J and Moderna lose their EUA can no longer be used.
https://www.fda.gov/emergency-prepar...tion#abouteuas
They’ll say that supply issues force other options…
If the vaccine were as bad as people fear, we’d be seeing a lot more issues with it alraedy. Reading their lit, the damage is down with in three weeks. And……So now, like most conspiracies, we’ll move the goal posts. Like I said, this is a crappy vaccine (effectiveness) and the roll out SUCKED. But it isn’t a de-population weapon of mass destruction.
They’ll say that supply issues force other options…
It does sound terribly like a conspiracy theory, I totally agree. But, if it was a depopulation, weapon of mass destruction...how do any of us know what the time frame, on the actual depopulation event would even be?
One thing is for sure, we are being lied to, about a great amount of things.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-24-21, 18:20
It does sound terribly like a conspiracy theory, I totally agree. But, if it was a depopulation, weapon of mass destruction...how do any of us know what the time frame, on the actual depopulation event would even be?
One thing is for sure, we are being lied to, about a great amount of things.
Uhm, NEWS FLASH! The west is depopulating itself… no overt action, just high cost of kids, less focus on family, high taxes, more women working…etc. Without immigration Italy would be a little lonely, and even in Japan we can see what happens if you don’t replace yourself- last robot turn off the lights…. ;). We don’t need Thanos to snap his fingers…
Right now we are being told that the vax will kill you, and then it will kill you again, and then kill your unborn kids.
It does sound terribly like a conspiracy theory, I totally agree. But, if it was a depopulation, weapon of mass destruction...how do any of us know what the time frame, on the actual depopulation event would even be?
One thing is for sure, we are being lied to, about a great amount of things.
Right after they got their 'approval' they contacted the members of their control group (the ones that got the placebo) and vaccinated most of them.
So no more 'control group' for long term comparisons...
Convenient huh.
Right now we are being told that the vax will kill you, and then it will kill you again, and then kill your unborn kids.
There HAVE been problems reported already with respect to unborn children and fertility.
Aside of the fact that the CDC has been caught 'editing' the number of reported vaccine related deaths... (halving the number in the database)
Well, if the vaccines actually do impair, or shut down your immune system, then what other more acceptable term would you call it?
The world is full of viruses, without a healthy immune system every virus is deadly.
They don't, as seen by the tremendous number of people who have been vaccinated and not died, so, it's not worth discussing.
You'd make about as much headway saying that shooting a gun is a death sentence because what if it blows up and throws a chunk of metal through your carotid
Seriously, when you declare the vaccine a death sentence, my potential to believe the negative side effects crowd goes down...you all are clearly dysfunctional conspiracy theory crazies completely disconnected from reality...is the feeling I get when you say the vaccine is a death sentence
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.