View Full Version : Has anyone done a cost benefit analysis on silencers for high velocity ARs?
Let's say, for example, you take a 16 inch AR and put a smaller silencer on it, bringing the overall length to be about the same as a 20 inch with typical muzzle device. How much quieter is the suppressed one going to be, compared to that unsuppressed 20 inch?
Another example would be a 10 inch with a 6-8 inch can on it, bringing its overall length to about the same as a non suppressed 16 inch. How much quieter will it be, vs. that unsuppressed 16 incher?
And all things considered, do you feel like it's worth it, given the disadvantages like lost velocity and increased weight, not to mention the back pressure and associated increase in port pop?
I don't have any sound metering equipment, so all I have are my ears. And it's all the more difficult because the tone shift can so easily be mistaken for a reduction in noise. Or in the case of an unpleasant tone produced by an otherwise high performing can, could make the benefits seem less tangible than they are in reality.
So yea, throw data at me! All I can really say is everything in 556 is loud as $%^#. Especially wearing ears, it's so hard to tell whether something is really that much quieter, or if the tone just changed.
I would choose to shoot ANY barrel length and suppressor combination without ears before I chose to shoot a 20" unsuppressed without ears. It's not quiet but it's absolutely quietER. I'm getting old and I vastly prefer the relative comfort of shooting suppressed in spite of the added length, weight etc. I don't think velocity loss is a thing though....
It’s definitely quieter shooting an unsuppressed 10.3 with just a flash cone on it vs shooting it with a full size suppressor (my own two cents from personal experience with my 10.3)… even without anything to measure the exact decimal rating your ears alone can tell it’s a difference in actual noise rating and not just a difference in how it sounds. Not to mention that if you ever had to use it indoors in a defensive situation, having a can would still be loud but you would still have hearing to assess what is going on around you. Without a can it would just be horrible. I run a Silencerco Omega 300 with a 5.56 end cap on it on my 10.3 build and it tones it down a lot. Just my own two cents though man I hope it helps.
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Shorter is louder.
They all need a can.
You can look at some of the YouTube suppressor reviews that use a decibel meter. They aren’t lab science but they give enough of a reference point.
The short answer is the longer the barrel and the longer the can, the quieter it gets. I have done a few rounds without ear pro with a short can on a short barrel for back yard science. It still sucks but instead of audible exclusion at one round, you get a couple. It’s never going to be movie level quiet because of physics but it can take the edge off.
If you've ever shot suppressed, you'd know the answer.
The largest difference you're likely to see with different barrel lengths is 3-6 dB.
Suppressors average around 30 dB reduction.
It's not even close; it's no contest.
In the end, a 12.5" barrel with a mini can is an awesome package and a top choice for a "do it all" solution.
If you've ever shot suppressed, you'd know the answer.
The largest difference you're likely to see with different barrel lengths is 3-6 dB.
Suppressors average around 30 dB reduction.
It's not even close; it's no contest.
In the end, a 12.5" barrel with a mini can is an awesome package and a top choice for a "do it all" solution.
Oh I have. I currently own three of them. I just don't notice that dramatic difference like with lower velocity rounds.
Eurodriver
08-21-21, 18:35
I can shoot a 10.3” with a mini can suppressed outdoors without ear pro and not feel uncomfortable. Probably is still not “safe” but I wouldn’t hesitate to do it.
I cannot and will not shoot a 20” unsuppressed without ear pro.
I can shoot a 10.3” with a mini can suppressed outdoors without ear pro and not feel uncomfortable. Probably is still not “safe” but I wouldn’t hesitate to do it.
I cannot and will not shoot a 20” unsuppressed without ear pro.
I will admit to shooting my SBR one time with my k can. I wouldn't describe it as painful, but I definitely felt it. I've also shot that same SBR with an 8 inch can on it, and it wasn't uncomfortable like with the k can, but still very loud.
Some dingleberry was in the lane next to me shooting an 11.5 with a brake the other day. Damn near cleared the line. I just stepped back when he was shooting, as did others.
When I shoot my 11.5 with Surefire RC2 people comment on its good manners.
When I got it my first thought was “why didn’t I do this sooner?”
Addressing the cost issue - the supressor can be used on multiple guns, even multiple calibers, which certainly adds value.
Andy
Some dingleberry was in the lane next to me shooting an 11.5 with a brake the other day. Damn near cleared the line. I just stepped back when he was shooting, as did others.
When I shoot my 11.5 with Surefire RC2 people comment on its good manners.
When I got it my first thought was “why didn’t I do this sooner?”
I've never shot an SBR with a brake, but I've heard the stories. I shot one of my 10 inchers for groups one day without a suppressor, with just the four prong flash hider, (at a sparsely populated outdoor range with plenty of room on all sides), and it was plenty bad. I felt it in my teeth and chest big time.
Addressing the cost issue - the supressor can be used on multiple guns, even multiple calibers, which certainly adds value.
Andy
I mean cost in terms of weight, lost velocity, back pressure, etc.
I've never shot an SBR with a brake, but I've heard the stories. I shot one of my 10 inchers for groups one day without a suppressor, with just the four prong flash hider, (at a sparsely populated outdoor range with plenty of room on all sides), and it was plenty bad. I felt it in my teeth and chest big time.
That’s what my PSA AK-P does. [emoji41]
Some dingleberry was in the lane next to me shooting an 11.5 with a brake the other day. Damn near cleared the line. I just stepped back when he was shooting, as did others.
When I shoot my 11.5 with Surefire RC2 people comment on its good manners.
When I got it my first thought was “why didn’t I do this sooner?”
After getting my first silencers, I now consider it rude to shoot my 11.5 without a can. I feel like I need a silencer on everything, just built a silenced 9" .22lr upper lol
I mean cost in terms of weight, lost velocity, back pressure, etc.
I always thought that silencers INCREASE velocity, not decrease it.
After getting my first silencers, I now consider it rude to shoot my 11.5 without a can. I feel like I need a silencer on everything, just built a silenced 9" .22lr upper lol
I always thought that silencers INCREASE velocity, not decrease it.
Correct but an absolutely negligible amount.
lonestardiver
08-25-21, 07:45
Easiest way to gauge the benefit is to shoot one at an indoor range with a can on it while wearing hearing protection and then again without the can wearing the same hearing protection. It goes from reasonably tolerable to Oh *&^%.
I’ll shoot my 5.56 pistol with a can at the range since it is so loud. It is not “silent” per se, but the muzzle blast is significantly reduced. Then my co-worker fires his 5.56 pistol without a can and everyone is going WTF.
There is a huge benefit in saving your hearing and making a range experience easier on your hearing and others hearing.
Correct but an absolutely negligible amount.
Right, so why is OP repeatedly saying it reduces velocity as a reason against running a can?
I always thought that silencers INCREASE velocity, not decrease it.
It's minimal at best. What they do affect though is POI, sometimes fairly drastically. I zero all my weapons with the suppressor on, if i'm going to mostly run suppressed.
If i had my choice, i'd run cans on all guns. I can't believe suppressors are still part of the NFA. They should be an over the counter item all day.
Right, so why is OP repeatedly saying it reduces velocity as a reason against running a can?
Some bold text to direct your attention.
Let's say, for example, you take a 16 inch AR and put a smaller silencer on it, bringing the overall length to be about the same as a 20 inch with typical muzzle device. How much quieter is the suppressed one going to be, compared to that unsuppressed 20 inch?
Another example would be a 10 inch with a 6-8 inch can on it, bringing its overall length to about the same as a non suppressed 16 inch. How much quieter will it be, vs. that unsuppressed 16 incher?
After getting my first silencers, I now consider it rude to shoot my 11.5 without a can. I feel like I need a silencer on everything, just built a silenced 9" .22lr upper lol
I always thought that silencers INCREASE velocity, not decrease it.
It's marginal compared to the velocity increase you would get from the same length of additional barrel. In an eight inch suppressor, you might get a 150fps increase, vs. that same length of barrel it might be as much as 500.
Right, so why is OP repeatedly saying it reduces velocity as a reason against running a can?
I'm just saying for the same overall length, if you have to chop off 6-10 inches of barrel to achieve that, you're losing lots of velocity. For example, a Mk18 with an eight inch silencer on it, which I believe is the approximate length of the currently issued can, that's going to bring your overall length closer to an M16.
So you're going to lose approximately 500 fps, the weight of the can will be maybe twice the weight of the barrel (especially if we're talking about anything besides A2, which is absurd), there's going to be a loss of both precision and accuracy that will be proportional to the can's performance (the most accurate are the loudest and vice versa), and then you have all that backpressure and fouling and gas to face and everything.
So I'm just wondering what the raw data is. Like what's the pressure at the shooter's ear with the suppressed Mk18, vs. the unsuppressed M16. Or an M4 with a K can vs. the M16, or a Mk18 with a K can vs. the M4.
That's all I'm getting at. We know all the quantities in terms of what we lose, but we don't really have any quantifiable data that I've seen in terms of what we gain.
At the end of the day, the mission dictates the gear. How are are you planning on shooting with your gun? Do you NEED that extra 500fps for a longer shot, or would you prefer less noise and visible flash? At CQB distances, that 500fps isn't going to make much noticeable difference, and if you're shooting medium to long range, a can on longer barrel doesn't add that much extra weight/length.
IMO the benefits of a suppressor are less audible sound to the shooter and others, significant muzzle flash reduction, significant ground disturbance reduction when shooting prone, easier communication in a firefight if everyone is suppressed, and harder to detect the location of the shot. I think the benefits of a can outweigh any potential perceived losses, personally.
Here is a little hard data scraped from a Suppressed Nation video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxEwobrBgpY&t=31s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxEwobrBgpY&t=31s
16" AR15 Carbine standard gas block, A223 55gr FMJ
Bare - 168.2 dB Muzzle / 155.1 dB Ear
YHM Resonator - 138.1 dB Muzzle / 147.3 dB Ear
Reduction - 30.1 dB Muzzle / 7.8 dB EAR
8" AR15 300BLK standard gas block 200gr SUBs
Bare - 161.9 dB Muzzle / 157.4 dB Ear
YHM Resonator - 124.7 dB Muzzle / 130.9 dB Ear
Reduction - 37.2 dB Muzzle / 26.5 dB EAR
This is not an apples to apples comparison, but shows some representative data.
I'm just saying for the same overall length, if you have to chop off 6-10 inches of barrel to achieve that, you're losing lots of velocity. For example, a Mk18 with an eight inch silencer on it, which I believe is the approximate length of the currently issued can, that's going to bring your overall length closer to an M16.
So you're going to lose approximately 500 fps, the weight of the can will be maybe twice the weight of the barrel (especially if we're talking about anything besides A2, which is absurd), there's going to be a loss of both precision and accuracy that will be proportional to the can's performance (the most accurate are the loudest and vice versa), and then you have all that backpressure and fouling and gas to face and everything.
So I'm just wondering what the raw data is. Like what's the pressure at the shooter's ear with the suppressed Mk18, vs. the unsuppressed M16. Or an M4 with a K can vs. the M16, or a Mk18 with a K can vs. the M4.
That's all I'm getting at. We know all the quantities in terms of what we lose, but we don't really have any quantifiable data that I've seen in terms of what we gain.
Have you looked at pewscience.com? Jay has put together the most in depth information that ive found so far.
I'm just saying for the same overall length, if you have to chop off 6-10 inches of barrel to achieve that, you're losing lots of velocity. For example, a Mk18 with an eight inch silencer on it, which I believe is the approximate length of the currently issued can, that's going to bring your overall length closer to an M16.
So you're going to lose approximately 500 fps, the weight of the can will be maybe twice the weight of the barrel (especially if we're talking about anything besides A2, which is absurd), there's going to be a loss of both precision and accuracy that will be proportional to the can's performance (the most accurate are the loudest and vice versa), and then you have all that backpressure and fouling and gas to face and everything.
So I'm just wondering what the raw data is. Like what's the pressure at the shooter's ear with the suppressed Mk18, vs. the unsuppressed M16. Or an M4 with a K can vs. the M16, or a Mk18 with a K can vs. the M4.
That's all I'm getting at. We know all the quantities in terms of what we lose, but we don't really have any quantifiable data that I've seen in terms of what we gain.
Bare - 168.2 dB Muzzle / 155.1 dB Ear
YHM Resonator - 138.1 dB Muzzle / 147.3 dB Ear
8" AR15 300BLK standard gas block 200gr SUBs
Bare - 161.9 dB Muzzle / 157.4 dB Ear
YHM Resonator - 124.7 dB Muzzle / 130.9 dB Ear
These results don't make sense to me. How can something be louder at the ear than the muzzle? Why is the bare .300 BLK quieter at the muzzle but louder at the ear, compared to 5.56?
The @ Ear noise come from two sources.
1) Muzzle - decreases with barrel length / distance away
2) Action Noise - depends on gassing
Excellent discussion on this here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?212343-Low-Back-Pressure-Suppressors-Opinions-and-Recommendations
These results don't make sense to me. How can something be louder at the ear than the muzzle? Why is the bare .300 BLK quieter at the muzzle but louder at the ear, compared to 5.56?
Failure2Stop
08-25-21, 14:02
1: Suppressors are a great addition to any firearm. Modern suppressors will show somewhere around 5-50ft/sec freebore boost inside the suppressor with supersonic ammo, the degree of which will be dependent on barrel length, caliber, suppressor design, and a few other variables.
2: There ain't no free lunch. Use of suppressors introduce some other factors and concerns; such as heat, increased fouling, possibility of baffle strike, flash, mirage, and the fact that if you're shooting supersonic ammo, you still need to wear hearing protection. Further, suppressors do experience wear, and will eventually be unsuitable for safe use even if frequently cleaned.
3: Most users will enjoy quieter suppressors. I generally prefer to use "full sized" cans on short-barreled rifles, ESPECIALLY if there is a potential that I will shoot the rifle without hearing protection. The trend of short suppressors is with user groups that are wearing hearing protection as a standard part of their PPE. The problem with most "quiet" suppressors is that they tend to be large and heavy, especially if they are made for high-density use.
4: Precision shooters will tend to prefer suppressors that maintain precision. If small groups and/or small targets at longer ranges are a criteria, this will generally be in direct conflict with design approach for highly durable or the lowest possible sound signature.
5: There are competing factors in design and execution. Figure out what the most important criteria are, and their ranking. If budget is a factor, put it at the top of your list.
6: 140dB isn't a magic number that allows unprotected use. Plan on using hearing protection if you want to maintain your hearing, even if the suppressor is in the 136 dB area. I highly encourage all shooters to do their own research on hearing conservation, peak impulse exposures, and daily exposures.
These results don't make sense to me. How can something be louder at the ear than the muzzle? Why is the bare .300 BLK quieter at the muzzle but louder at the ear, compared to 5.56?
The gassier a suppressor is, the louder it will be at the ear in a DI system. I tend to see a bit of an inverse relationship between super quiet "at the muzzle" cans, and super quiet at the ear. I've been researching this issue a bit as I am in the market for my first couple of cans. I'm leaning towards the OSS Ti cans as they are amongst the least gassy, and though they don't post the most impressive numbers at the muzzle, they're tolerable at the ear.
The gassier a suppressor is, the louder it will be at the ear in a DI system. I tend to see a bit of an inverse relationship between super quiet "at the muzzle" cans, and super quiet at the ear. I've been researching this issue a bit as I am in the market for my first couple of cans. I'm leaning towards the OSS Ti cans as they are amongst the least gassy, and though they don't post the most impressive numbers at the muzzle, they're tolerable at the ear.
You might want to look into doing a coaxial build.
Failure2Stop
08-25-21, 15:36
The gassier a suppressor is, the louder it will be at the ear in a DI system.
That is not a universal truth, and a DI operating system has almost nothing to do with suppression and very little to do with operator-experienced exposure to propellent gasses.
That is not a universal truth, and a DI operating system has almost nothing to do with suppression and very little to do with operator-experienced exposure to propellent gasses.Like I said, I'm still very much in the learning stages here, so I'll happily defer to your expertise. I would love a recommendation on a 5.56 and 7.62 can from you.
I'm primarily interested in a light weight, low gas impulse, and quiet at the ear can. I know KAC makes an excellent and incredibly durable 5.56 can, but it's overkill for my purposes and heavier than what I require.
ETA: Looks like the KAC 5.56 QDC isn't too heavy. But alas, unobtanium.
For example, a Mk18 with an eight inch silencer on it, which I believe is the approximate length of the currently issued can, that's going to bring your overall length closer to an M16.
Coupla problems here.
1) you have to consider that the unsuppressed comparison barrel has a muzzle device, so with an 8” can, the Mk18 would be closer to a 16” unsuppressed.
2) there is no one issued can, but most tend to make a Mk18 fairly close to the same OAL as a M4. Do with that what you will.
These results don't make sense to me. How can something be louder at the ear than the muzzle? Why is the bare .300 BLK quieter at the muzzle but louder at the ear, compared to 5.56?
Very strange, indeed. For the 8” BLK, perhaps the “muzzle” measurement was 1m away, but the “ear” measurement was actually closer to the muzzle. Probably half that distance.
Coupla problems here.
1) you have to consider that the unsuppressed comparison barrel has a muzzle device, so with an 8” can, the Mk18 would be closer to a 16” unsuppressed.
2) there is no one issued can, but most tend to make a Mk18 fairly close to the same OAL as a M4. Do with that what you will.
Very strange, indeed. For the 8” BLK, perhaps the “muzzle” measurement was 1m away, but the “ear” measurement was actually closer to the muzzle. Probably half that distance.
I'm just speaking generalities here. Not trying to split hairs.
Failure2Stop
08-26-21, 08:54
Like I said, I'm still very much in the learning stages here, so I'll happily defer to your expertise. I would love a recommendation on a 5.56 and 7.62 can from you.
I'm primarily interested in a light weight, low gas impulse, and quiet at the ear can. I know KAC makes an excellent and incredibly durable 5.56 can, but it's overkill for my purposes and heavier than what I require.
Yeah, our current cans are definitely oriented to "fall out of a helicopter, shoot a full on-body ammo load, repeat a few dozen times, and then don't maintain it at all until someone notices that they haven't been cleaned and dump them into a bucket of CLR" application, which is a bit more than most of us need.
For folks that don't fall in that category of use, there are really nice cans on the commercial market from KGM, Rugged, and Thunder Beast (among others, just going off the top of my head) that are light weight, have good sound numbers, and have good precision potential, at a generally relatively low price.
Failure2Stop
08-26-21, 08:56
For the 8” BLK, perhaps the “muzzle” measurement was 1m away, but the “ear” measurement was actually closer to the muzzle. Probably half that distance.
Bingo.
Like I said, I'm still very much in the learning stages here, so I'll happily defer to your expertise. I would love a recommendation on a 5.56 and 7.62 can from you.
I'm primarily interested in a light weight, low gas impulse, and quiet at the ear can. I know KAC makes an excellent and incredibly durable 5.56 can, but it's overkill for my purposes and heavier than what I require.
ETA: Looks like the KAC 5.56 QDC isn't too heavy. But alas, unobtanium.
Pretty exciting stuff happening in form 1 right now. Currently building a 5.5 inch 1.5 od coaxial can that's going to have six baffles and weigh 10 ounces. I'm also going to add an M300 blast diffuser, which will make it about as durable as most factory cans. Might add 2 ounces if even that.
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