View Full Version : Tubbs flatwire vs stock A5 spring?
Long story short:
4 complete Colt 6920s had the LE lowers sold to collectors, lowers were replaced with SOLGW and one Geissele lower, all with A5 kits, stock springs and A5-2 buffers.
Several malfunctions observed, all incomplete fail to feeds when charged with the handle or from an open bolt using the bolt release.
These rifles, mags, ammo, and lube have all been extensively vetted with the carbine/H2 Colt lowers and reliable for years, there is no issue with the uppers. There is no issue with the lowers, they have inspected and everything is as it should be.
Sprinco springs won’t be considered as corrosion has been an issue in the past with those (saltwater/air environment).
Tubbs flatwire springs are about all I’m considering at the moment because they’re stainless and I like the idea of more coils (why I liked the A5 too).
My guess is that you have too much buffer weight.
My guess is that you have too much buffer weight.
It’s the stock A5 buffer that equals the rifle buffer.
It’s the stock A5 buffer that equals the rifle buffer.
Right. Which IIRC is ~5.3 oz, which is 2.3 oz heavier than the 3.0 oz H buffer in the 6920.
I've always preferred the Sprinco Green, though I do have one tubbs. No problems I can recall.
Edit-I find the Sprincos to be consistent from spring to spring, and have felt variances with other "stock" springs. I also felt like the stock A5 springs were kind of soft, but maybe that's just me.
Right. Which IIRC is ~5.3 oz, which is 2.3 oz heavier than the 3.0 oz H buffer in the 6920.
Which is not directly comparable since we’re talking carbine vs rifle springs. I ran H2 buffers in the Colt lowers.
There is probably a reason BCM shipped their A5 kit with the "0" buffers.
crosseyedshooter
08-22-21, 11:09
Maybe a silly question, but are you sure you have rifle springs? The rifle springs have more preload than carbine springs and should chamber more reliably.
You know, I didn't read the OP thoroughly and missed the part where it was only happening when charged or released. Please disregard my dumb comments.
Double check the spring lengths.
The A5 tends to work best with spring tension at the high end of range.
Shoot for at least 12.5"
From:
TECHNICAL MANUAL
ARMY NO. 9-1005-319-23&P
RIFLE:
11 3/4 Inches minimum
to
13 1/2 inches maximum
Maybe a silly question, but are you sure you have rifle springs? The rifle springs have more preload than carbine springs and should chamber more reliably.
Yep. Rifle springs that came with the A5 kits direct from VLTOR.
Tubbs flatwire springs are about all I’m considering at the moment because they’re stainless and I like the idea of more coils (why I liked the A5 too).
As far as I’ve seen, if you want an extra-power stainless rifle spring, Tubb is your only option. If you find something else, I’d love to know.
Still, I had the impression that the A5 is a well-vetted, reliable system by now, so I’m surprised that it’s not working for you.
Maybe a bad batch of springs in the A5 kits? Do you have another basic mil-spec rifle spring to try?
I do see that you say the new lowers have been checked out. Just wondering out loud here, but could there be some weirdness with magazine catch so that the mags aren’t sitting quite where they should?
Double check the spring lengths.
The A5 tends to work best with spring tension at the high end of range.
Shoot for at least 12.5"
From:
TECHNICAL MANUAL
ARMY NO. 9-1005-319-23&P
RIFLE:
11 3/4 Inches minimum
to
13 1/2 inches maximum
My experience with different buffer weights and others’ comments like this are starting to turn on a light in my head that after a decade of messing around with the A5 off and on, that it is, in fact, an overall more sensitive, less reliable setup than the carbine arrangement.
JP makes polished stainless +10% rifle springs. I have one of their carbine springs and it's nice.
https://www.wingtactical.com/firearm-parts/ar-15/buffer-buffer-tubes/jp-enterprises-polished-ar-15-buffer-spring/
As far as I’ve seen, if you want an extra-power stainless rifle spring, Tubb is your only option. If you find something else, I’d love to know.
Still, I had the impression that the A5 is a well-vetted, reliable system by now, so I’m surprised that it’s not working for you.
Maybe a bad batch of springs in the A5 kits? Do you have another basic mil-spec rifle spring to try?
I do see that you say the new lowers have been checked out. Just wondering out loud here, but could there be some weirdness with magazine catch so that the mags aren’t sitting quite where they should?
That was my first thought, the lowers are as they should be. The SOLGW lowers are impeccable in every dimension and are machined beautifully, the Geissele lower is in-spec where it matters but is about equal to a run of the mill Colt lower in appearance.
Right. Which IIRC is ~5.3 oz, which is 2.3 oz heavier than the 3.0 oz H buffer in the 6920.
3.0 oz is the regular carbine buffer weight. A5 standard weight is about 5.3 oz.
An H carbine buffer is about 3.7 oz and a rifle would be 5.1 oz
JP makes polished stainless +10% rifle springs. I have one of their carbine springs and it's nice.
I have one in rifle length, and it’s indeed very nice, but I wonder about the stainless part. I see that claim on the seller’s website that you linked, but not on JP’s. When I enquired with JP, the response was that they use “rocket wire,” which is a high-performance version of music wire.
No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
WS6 had similar issues failing to feed after a reload with dirty magazines.
Issues were eliminated with the Green spring.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?179972-The-Vltor-A5-my-journey-to-and-away
Dropping down one step to A5H1 may also help chambering.
My experience with different buffer weights and others’ comments like this are starting to turn on a light in my head that after a decade of messing around with the A5 off and on, that it is, in fact, an overall more sensitive, less reliable setup than the carbine arrangement.
Long story short:
4 complete Colt 6920s had the LE lowers sold to collectors, lowers were replaced with SOLGW and one Geissele lower, all with A5 kits, stock springs and A5-2 buffers.
Several malfunctions observed, all incomplete fail to feeds when charged with the handle or from an open bolt using the bolt release.
These rifles, mags, ammo, and lube have all been extensively vetted with the carbine/H2 Colt lowers and reliable for years, there is no issue with the uppers. There is no issue with the lowers, they have inspected and everything is as it should be.
Sprinco springs won’t be considered as corrosion has been an issue in the past with those (saltwater/air environment).
Tubbs flatwire springs are about all I’m considering at the moment because they’re stainless and I like the idea of more coils (why I liked the A5 too).
Are these departmental or gov weapons, or just ones? I'm at a loss as to why someone would break up parts for a fully functional weapon system, but I've seen departments do some dumb things before.
You are stating a few things that aren't making sense to me. First, you say the upper are perfect, I can understand this comment based on previous use. However, you are also stating the lowers have no issues.
1. How did you come to the determination of there being no issues with the lower? Especially when most armorers are going to say that is the first area they would be looking for regarding troubles.
2. Who did the assembly of the lower receivers?
3. Who did the inspection of the lower receivers, and what was their level or training (or experience if untrained)?
4. How tight is the mag catch?
5. When you pull all the springs out and lay them side by side, and then put them next to a (preferably new) rifle spring, how different are they?
6. What buffer are you using? (if you listed it I missed it, sorry)
7. What happens when a standard OEM lower receiver is used?
8. How often does the issue replicate?
My experience with different buffer weights and others’ comments like this are starting to turn on a light in my head that after a decade of messing around with the A5 off and on, that it is, in fact, an overall more sensitive, less reliable setup than the carbine arrangement.
I hope not. I paid premium last year for A5 components in the belief that properly configured it has a wider operating range than the carbine system. I did not listen to marketing hype but members of this forum.
As far as I’ve seen, if you want an extra-power stainless rifle spring, Tubb is your only option. If you find something else, I’d love to know.
What about the springs intended for .308 platforms? I asked about these recently. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?231543-308-action-springs) Though I have yet to get a reply I believe they are stronger than AR-15 rifle springs.
Does no one make a stainless equivalent to the Springco Green? Maybe I've just been lucky in always being able to grab a Green spring and go. My environment hasn't caused me any issues, but it might be different if I were around saltwater.
Are these departmental or gov weapons, or just ones? I'm at a loss as to why someone would break up parts for a fully functional weapon system, but I've seen departments do some dumb things before.
You are stating a few things that aren't making sense to me. First, you say the upper are perfect, I can understand this comment based on previous use. However, you are also stating the lowers have no issues.
1. How did you come to the determination of there being no issues with the lower? Especially when most armorers are going to say that is the first area they would be looking for regarding troubles.
2. Who did the assembly of the lower receivers?
3. Who did the inspection of the lower receivers, and what was their level or training (or experience if untrained)?
4. How tight is the mag catch?
5. When you pull all the springs out and lay them side by side, and then put them next to a (preferably new) rifle spring, how different are they?
6. What buffer are you using? (if you listed it I missed it, sorry)
7. What happens when a standard OEM lower receiver is used?
8. How often does the issue replicate?
All personal owned guns, they get shot quite a bit, loaned out to people for training classes (I own a range), and helicopter hog hunts. The Colt lowers were sold off when the prices and demand for LE and the restricted marked lowers were bringing a premium as these things are not collectibles by any means.
All lowers were assembled with SOLGW LPKs by myself along with a friend who has attended several armorers courses, SOLGW included, he has inspected everything a couple of times since I’ve put these things back into use and noticed the malfunctions.
There have been only a few malfunctions, some that can be remedied by just a nudge of the forward assist, but this is an issue that has never occurred until now.
So this morning I swapped a carbine extension, spring, and H buffer onto the lower that showed the most trouble.
I loaded up 5 Pmags to 30 rounds and manually charged all of them several times and dropped the bolt on them several times and it fully chambered every time.
Out of curiosity I pulled out a box of tan follower GI mags that I thought were bad because they had a few 1st round ftfeeds.
Worked perfect every time.
I and a coworker fired several Pmags and GI mags without a hitch.
Either VLTOR has a bad batch of springs or the A5 is just not quite as robust of function as the carbine setup.
I'm guessing Vltor's springs.
I've built four different AR-10s using the A5 tube, Tubb springs, and A5 XH heavy buffers. They all work like a charm. A Strike Industries flat-wire won't completely install into an A5, getting stuck around two coils out.
So this morning I swapped a carbine extension, spring, and H buffer onto the lower that showed the most trouble.
I loaded up 5 Pmags to 30 rounds and manually charged all of them several times and dropped the bolt on them several times and it fully chambered every time.
Out of curiosity I pulled out a box of tan follower GI mags that I thought were bad because they had a few 1st round ftfeeds.
Worked perfect every time.
I and a coworker fired several Pmags and GI mags without a hitch.
Either VLTOR has a bad batch of springs or the A5 is just not quite as robust of function as the carbine setup.
I bet it's the spring at this point. Have you ordered a different rifle spring for the A5 extension?
How many rounds on the VLTOR springs and what length do they measure?
Either VLTOR has a bad batch of springs or the A5 is just not quite as robust of function as the carbine setup.
I ordered a Tubb flatwire to try.
I didn’t measure the rifle spring, but it has 7-800 rounds on it.
Springco green is the one to have. You could also try super 42. If you can’t, I’d stick to carbine. A5’s would move easily on EE.
No experience with tubbs though.
JP makes polished stainless +10% rifle springs. I have one of their carbine springs and it's nice.
https://www.wingtactical.com/firearm-parts/ar-15/buffer-buffer-tubes/jp-enterprises-polished-ar-15-buffer-spring/
Have been running those in everything for a while now. Rifle and Carbine. Also stocked both sizes for spares.
I was sold after trying the first...
Have been running those in everything for a while now. Rifle and Carbine. Also stocked both sizes for spares.
Would you test one to see if it is stainless?
Have been running those in everything for a while now. Rifle and Carbine. Also stocked both sizes for spares.
I was sold after trying the first...
This interests me. I would also like to know if it's indeed stainless
Using a full GI mag (no primer or powder in top round), I did some testing with a lower that has an A5 RE, A5H2, Tubbs spring. With the rifle pointed straight up I could purposely get it to not chamber the top round if I very carefully moved the bolt forward until it rested on the base of the top round. Whacking the mag would send it forward to chamber it. Bolt release chambered with force. If I let the bolt forward with only a 1/16" between the bolt and base of round, it would stick, but any more than that and it would slam home. Using the CH slammed home with force. I also tried some of this with the rifle horizontal but cradling it between two fingers and my thumb. I feel like your Vltor spring may be weak. Maybe I can try the same test with a BCM rifle spring and Springco Green when time allows.
Would you test one to see if it is stainless?
Not a metal expert in any way but,
https://i.imgur.com/SNJo0I4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WSBq4V0.jpg
They are definitely magnetic.
JP does not specify and (reputable) sellers are all over the map in their descriptions. Some say this, some say that, and others do not specify material at all. (Brownells, Midway, Primary Arms, etc.)
I do like them. To the point where new Colts get the springs replaced before even firing...
Tried what I did in Post #34 with a BCM spring. Results mirrored Tubbs, with bolt moving round forward but not clambering if I rest bolt carefully against base of round. Slapping mag sends round home. Any space 3/16" or greater also chambered round. Seems like the Tubbs does close a tiny bit harder than BCM, but not by much. BCM spring is brand new, Tubbs spring has <500 rounds on it.
Tried same with Sprinco Green. Any space at all between bolt and base of round chambered round pretty easily. This spring has several thousand rounds on it. Easy to see why it's preferred, but now I wonder about the JP rifle spring.
I measured the three VLTOR springs I have here and they were 12 1/2”, 12 5/8, 12 11/16”.
Right in the middle of spec, I think. 11 3/4 - 13 1/2”?
Not a metal expert in any way but,
https://i.imgur.com/SNJo0I4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WSBq4V0.jpg
They are definitely magnetic.
JP does not specify and (reputable) sellers are all over the map in their descriptions. Some say this, some say that, and others do not specify material at all. (Brownells, Midway, Primary Arms, etc.)
I do like them. To the point where new Colts get the springs replaced before even firing...
Stainless springs also attract magnets, unfortunately. At least Tubbs ones do. Speaking of which, I’m not convinced that Tubbs 36 coil springs are any stiffer than Colt rifle springs, tested (unscientifically) in this post: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?227778-Adj-gas-block-adventures-(1168)&highlight= ,where I found it took more clicks on a AGB to run a Colt spring vs a Tubbs 36 coil. I also “tested” some on a scale, and it was fairly inconclusive. The 42 coil spring seems stiffer, but not as much as you might expect. Really, it just has more preload with the same rate.
I’m very interested in that JP spring. It would be awesome in suppressor hosts if stainless and plus 10%.
For those recommending Sprinco Green, OP said he did not want CS due to wet, salty conditions. I can say from experience that Sprincos will turn orange in a single day out of the safe. Doesn’t even have to rain if its humid enough or if you use a hard case.
OP, I’ve (A5H4, 42 coil Tubbs) also experienced this when loading a mag, intermittently, but chalked it up to dry, dirty gun and shitty mags. One shake of the gun fore and aft gets in to slam into battery. Bad mags have been confirmed, for sure. Are you using a Colt BCG? Mine’s got a LMT, which I suspect could be related. Also of note, mine is a Vltor upper, which I think is tighter than Colt.
Personally, I’d try a new Colt spring.
Regarding the JP polished springs:
1.) I do remember reading years ago that they were advertised as stainless, but now I see them advertised, by certain sellers, as chrome silicone. This is fine with me because I always lightly lube my action springs. Makes a very noticeable improvement in smoothness, and has the added benefit of rust prevention.
2.) I was mistaken about the +10% rate. It is +7%.
I didn’t want to sacrifice a nice JP spring to a salt-spray corrosion test. Instead, I put a little dab of Birchwood Casey “Aluminum Black” on one end, and the metal was discolored. So I’m thinking probably not stainless.
I wonder if there might be two generations of these JP springs — the two samples that I have seem different. The one that I figure is older came in a plastic wrapper with a paper label inside, but with the one I bought last year, the labeling is printed directly on the wrapper. The springs themselves look different too: the older one is darker, going toward grey, whereas the newer one is bright silver. Could be a change in materials, could be just how they’re finished. Maybe even corrosion, but I kinda doubt it.
(The one that I “tested” was the new shiny one.)
I didn’t want to sacrifice a nice JP spring to a salt-spray corrosion test. Instead, I put a little dab of Birchwood Casey “Aluminum Black” on one end, and the metal was discolored. So I’m thinking probably not stainless.
I wonder if there might be two generations of these JP springs — the two samples that I have seem different. The one that I figure is older came in a plastic wrapper with a paper label inside, but with the one I bought last year, the labeling is printed directly on the wrapper. The springs themselves look different too: the older one is darker, going toward grey, whereas the newer one is bright silver. Could be a change in materials, could be just how they’re finished. Maybe even corrosion, but I kinda doubt it.
(The one that I “tested” was the new shiny one.)
I'd like to see you test the older spring, and a piece of known stainless steel. One thing to keep in mind is that there are a BUNCH of steel alloys that are called "stainless," but only very few of them approach being truly stainless. Same goes for not pulling a magnet; only a few of them can be considered low magnetic.
One more data point from us:
6933 upper on Spikes lower with an A5 that was installed to try to get a BCM 11.5 running right.
This one has about 1K rounds through it and has had to use the forward assist a couple of times to complete a reload.
That lower had a BCM 14.5” mid on it with an H buffer and carbine springs for ten years with zero issues until it was replaced with the BCM 11.5”.
I'd like to see you test the older spring, and a piece of known stainless steel.Well, I’d like to see you or someone else in this thread send an email or place a call to JP to ask them what they use. When I did that in Jan 2020, the response was rocket wire, not stainless.
But a control specimen — sure, that makes sense. The only spring I have that looks anything like the JP is from Spikes, supposedly from polished 17-7. The Aluminum Black didn’t leave a mark.
ETA: While we’re at it, does anyone know what Geissele is using for their Super 42? Now available in rifle length….
Well, I’d like to see you or someone else in this thread send an email or place a call to JP to ask them what they use. When I did that in Jan 2020, the response was rocket wire, not stainless.
But a control specimen — sure, that makes sense. The only spring I have that looks anything like the JP is from Spikes, supposedly from polished 17-7. The Aluminum Black didn’t leave a mark.I think that settles it in my mind. JP isn't claiming it to be stainless, and the stainless spring you have didn't change with the Alumablack. Thanks for doing that.
But a control specimen — sure, that makes sense. The only spring I have that looks anything like the JP is from Spikes, supposedly from polished 17-7. The Aluminum Black didn’t leave a mark.
Thanks you. How is the polish on the Spikes spring compared to the JP?
Ok. So we’ve burned through almost a case of hot Q3131, headstamped ‘04.
With an A5-2 and new VLTOR spring the 6920 with the most rounds and 6933 were 100% with all the Pmags and GI mags except for 1 tan follower mag that does not like to feed on the first round, using the charging handle or bolt release.
With the 6920/A5-3 there were several instances of lockback on the carrier instead of the bolt with pmags and GI mags.
With fresh carbine spring and H, H2, and H3 both were 100% with one instance of the 6920 and the bad GI mag needing the forward assist when charged by the handle.
No lockbacks on the carrier.
The 6920 ejected solidly at 4:00 with every buffer, A5 and carbine.
The 6933 was a little erratic with the A5-2, about 2:00 -2:30 with every other buffer.
4 of us shot the guns, all 4 noticed that the carbine/H in the 6920 was the softest combo and had very little dot movement. Swapping that upper from A5 back to the carbine/H was pretty dramatic. Almost like putting on a comp. Not what we expected but there is something to be said for not messing with a 6920.
The 6933 , we really couldn’t tell much difference between the carbine/H and A5-2. It seemed to cycle pretty fast. Carbine H2 and H3 and A5-3 all felt about the same.
When I get the Tubb springs I will do all this again but the 6933 probably won’t be here by then.
3.0 oz is the regular carbine buffer weight. A5 standard weight is about 5.3 oz.
An H carbine buffer is about 3.7 oz and a rifle would be 5.1 oz
Not to thread drift, but I've read anecdotes that Colt's H marked buffers only weighed 3.0 oz. May have been a bad batch.
With the 6920/A5-3 there were several instances of lockback on the carrier instead of the bolt with pmags and GI mags.
Keep in mind that the H1 buffer that Colt shipped that rifle with is the same weight as the A5H0, and the H2 that everyone likes to recommend is about the same as an A5H1, although the A5H1 is a little heavier. What I’m getting at is, an A5H3 is into suppressor territory, and is like an ounce more than a rifle buffer.
How is the polish on the Spikes spring compared to the JP?They’re similar in that they’re both bright silver. But up close, the Spikes has round wire with a fine orange-peel texture; their website says they’re electro-polished, however that works. The JP has round wire that’s been ground flat on the outer diameter of the spring, and that ground surface is what really stands out.
Oh, and they’re wound in opposite directions :-)
FWIW, some crude testing suggested to me that the Spikes (carbine-length BTW) is a bit on the soft side, maybe comparable to a Sprinco yellow.
The JP has round wire that’s been ground flat on the outer diameter of the spring, and that ground surface is what really stands out.
That was not apparent to me from the photos or marketing. I thought it was just a polished spring. Thanks.
Keep in mind that the H1 buffer that Colt shipped that rifle with is the same weight as the A5H0, and the H2 that everyone likes to recommend is about the same as an A5H1, although the A5H1 is a little heavier. What I’m getting at is, an A5H3 is into suppressor territory, and is like an ounce more than a rifle buffer.
I was also surprised to see the A5H3. That's a bit of weight. I've actually been wondering lately if the A5H1 shouldn't be peoples go to A5 weight.
I didn’t want to sacrifice a nice JP spring to a salt-spray corrosion test. Instead, I put a little dab of Birchwood Casey “Aluminum Black” on one end, and the metal was discolored. So I’m thinking probably not stainless.
That stuff has a few different acids in it dude. Yes, It is going to etch and discolor SS as well as other steels. Just because a steel is stain-LESS does not mean you can't discolor it with chemicals after you etch it.
Not to thread drift, but I've read anecdotes that Colt's H marked buffers only weighed 3.0 oz. May have been a bad batch.
Nope. That is regular carbine weight and those will not be marked with a H on the face.
Nope. That is regular carbine weight and those will not be marked with a H on the face.
I'm aware. I'm saying that Colt mismarked some 6920 standard carbine buffers as H buffers and shipped them out that way.
Here you go: Colt 6920 H buffers only weighing 3.0 ounces. (https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Colt_6920_H_buffer_weight_is_only_3_0_oz/128-695615/)
I was also surprised to see the A5H3. That's a bit of weight. I've actually been wondering lately if the A5H1 shouldn't be peoples go to A5 weight.
It might. I don’t have anything lighter than the A5-2s that come with the kit. I was always under the impression that the original recipe A5 was supposed to mimic the rifle buffer setup and be a reliability and shootability improvement over the standard carbine parts.
If you read the A5 threads around here (I’ve read all of ‘em), it’s almost always about how soft and big the reliability window gets with a Springco Green and an A5-3 or 4.
Gunz ran a 6920 with a comp, Sprinco Green, A5-3 and thought it ran great.
If I make sure to brace/support the gun real well, it will lock back every time, but having to hold it just so to make it function right isn’t acceptable to me [for my use].
No
That stuff has a few different acids in it dude. Yes, It is going to etch and discolor SS as well as other steels. Just because a steel is stain-LESS does not mean you can't discolor it with chemicals after you etch it.As a control, I tried the stuff on a Spikes spring that’s advertised as 17-7, and it left no mark.
JP themselves told me their spring is rocket wire, not stainless.
Do you have some reason to believe it _is_ stainless? (I don’t consider the website of some random reseller to be credible evidence….)
I'm aware. I'm saying that Colt mismarked some 6920 standard carbine buffers as H buffers and shipped them out that way.
Here you go: Colt 6920 H buffers only weighing 3.0 ounces. (https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Colt_6920_H_buffer_weight_is_only_3_0_oz/128-695615/)
From that link the guy bought it second hand from a member in an EE advertisement on that site in 2016. Can guarantee you Colt is NOT selling crap in the EE on that site.
This is why you should be leery of sellers without a good deal of positive feedback if buying used stuff online.
The seller there likely swapped out the tungsten weight for steel and then sold it thinking that it would never be checked.
I could understand you blaming Colt 'if it actually came from them directly' - But it did not.
It might. I don’t have anything lighter than the A5-2s that come with the kit.
It should be easy to swap in a steel weight for one of the tungsten ones, assuming you have a standard carbine buffer as a donor.
It might. I don’t have anything lighter than the A5-2s that come with the kit. I was always under the impression that the original recipe A5 was supposed to mimic the rifle buffer setup and be a reliability and shootability improvement over the standard carbine parts.
If you read the A5 threads around here (I’ve read all of ‘em), it’s almost always about how soft and big the reliability window gets with a Springco Green and an A5-3 or 4.
Gunz ran a 6920 with a comp, Sprinco Green, A5-3 and thought it ran great.
If I make sure to brace/support the gun real well, it will lock back every time, but having to hold it just so to make it function right isn’t acceptable to me [for my use].
No
Totally understand. Just wish your experiences were the same as mine. I've been super happy with my Green spring/A5H2 setups. I still feel like the issue is the Vltor spring. I lubricate my spring periodically to prevent rust, and deal with guns sweating when they come out of the cold. My luck has been good, but I don't do salt water. I look forward to hearing how the Tubbs treats you.
It just seems a little weird. In theory, if a properly sprung A5 doesn't work, I don't see how M16A2s and A4s do. That's probably a topic for brighter minds than mine. Ultimately, I'd go with what works 100% for you.
That was not apparent to me from the photos or marketing. I thought it was just a polished spring. Thanks.
You will 'not hear' (or feel) the difference right away. There is no 'sproing' when things go into battery. That vibration is gone.
Have been slow as hell unpacking after the move and still trying to get set up here at new place. Will try to dig out / find my stuff so I can get you better number to add to the data you already collected in your other thread.
Good thread BTW...
https://i.imgur.com/OOfZADh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7YZdI4b.jpg
Top spring is new JP out of the package, never installed / compressed. Next down is Colt 6721 that sat installed (slightly compressed) but not 'used' for a few years. Bottom is a JP that has been sitting installed for about the same time and same non number of cycles.
Will add this info to your other thread and expand on it asap.
It just seems a little weird. In theory, if a properly sprung A5 doesn't work, I don't see how M16A2s and A4s do. That's probably a topic for brighter minds than mine. Ultimately, I'd go with what works 100% for you.
Exactly what’s on my mind. People used to put carbine uppers on rifle lowers for full auto shoots because they shot softer and were more reliable.
Kinda makes me think of WS6 trouble with the A5.
To reiterate, I haven’t had any stoppages other than failure to fully chamber while charging and reload a few times. It took 4K rounds (5 now) and nine months to figure out that I had a problem.
I was also surprised to see the A5H3. That's a bit of weight. I've actually been wondering lately if the A5H1 shouldn't be peoples go to A5 weight.
Honestly, with a properly gassed (and unsuppressed) gun, I’m with BCM on this one.
Yes, the A5H1 and Green spring is a fantastic combo for properly gassed uppers.
Honestly, with a properly gassed (and unsuppressed) gun, I’m with BCM on this one.
I had issues with 2 of the 3 Vltor springs myself. I ended replacing them with Colt rifle springs and never had a problem since. The one trouble free vltor spring is still working fine.
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I ran about 300 rounds through one 6920 with a Tubb spring A5-2 and carbine H buffers. That spring is definitely stiffer and plowed through the mag that gives me the most trouble, although barely.
With the A5 buffer I was able to get it lock back on the carrier unsupported, but I had to try to make it do it.
The thing that I don’t like about it is that it’s noticeably creates a little difficulty to pull the charging handle. Which I really don’t like.
I ran about 300 rounds through one 6920 with a Tubb spring A5-2 and carbine H buffers. That spring is definitely stiffer and plowed through the mag that gives me the most trouble, although barely.
With the A5 buffer I was able to get it lock back on the carrier unsupported, but I had to try to make it do it.
The thing that I don’t like about it is that it’s noticeably creates a little difficulty to pull the charging handle. Which I really don’t like.
What's up with that one mag?
What's up with that one mag?
It’s a dang near brand new Brownells tan follower mag that really doesn’t like to feed the first round when using the charging handle. It’s the magazine that I first noticed that I was starting to have 1st round FTfeeds with A5 equipped guns.
I think the springs that came with the A5 kits simply wore out in about a little under 1K rounds.
It’s a dang near brand new Brownells tan follower mag that really doesn’t like to feed the first round when using the charging handle. It’s the magazine that I first noticed that I was starting to have 1st round FTfeeds with A5 equipped guns.
I think the springs that came with the A5 kits simply wore out in about a little under 1K rounds.
Brownells has the best warranty in the industry. They warranty every product they sell for life. Just give them a call and they will get you a replacement mag.
The thing that I don’t like about it is that it’s noticeably creates a little difficulty to pull the charging handle. Which I really don’t like.
Does this feel like drag or simply a firmer spring? If the former have you lubricated the spring and buffer?
Does this feel like drag or simply a firmer spring? If the former have you lubricated the spring and buffer?
Just a stiffer spring.
Loaded to 28 it chambers fine. Stuffed to 30 and it’s sluggish with the bolt release, sometimes stops with the charging handle.
I ran about 300 rounds through one 6920 with a Tubb spring
Curious which Tubb spring you tried — they come in three flavors: AR15, AR10, and now lightweight.
Just a stiffer spring.
Loaded to 28 it chambers fine. Stuffed to 30 and it’s sluggish with the bolt release, sometimes stops with the charging handle.
If even with an extra power spring that is stiff enough that it's noticeably harder to cycle you're getting unreliable chambering with the charging handle something else must be wrong. Mag lips, feed ramps, buffer tube, carrier rails, the hammer where it rides on the carrier, a bent charging handle, gas tube, gas key, undersized chamber ... SOMETHING is hanging up somewhere; it has to be.
Were there any failures with PMAGs or just USGI?
When that first round feeds, it pivots around the front of the feed lip and the rim pushes the stack down.
If there's not enough room for the stack to compress, binding will occur.
PMAGs have sufficient extra room when loaded to 30, but not all USGI mags do, hence the workaround of downloading to 28.
If even with an extra power spring that is stiff enough that it's noticeably harder to cycle you're getting unreliable chambering with the charging handle something else must be wrong. Mag lips, feed ramps, buffer tube, carrier rails, the hammer where it rides on the carrier, a bent charging handle, gas tube, gas key, undersized chamber ... SOMETHING is hanging up somewhere; it has to be.
I’m talking about five guns, all Colt uppers. The springs supplied with the VLTOR kits weren’t always getting it done. I had a few new tan follower Brownells mags that I thought were bad because I was getting 1st round stoppages with them. I noticed a pattern developing and swapped a carbine tube, Colt spring, H buffer on a lower, and fixed all but one of those mags.
I put a Tubb AR15 spring in the VLTOR tube and it performs the same as the carbine spring.
Were there any failures with PMAGs or just USGI?
When that first round feeds, it pivots around the front of the feed lip and the rim pushes the stack down.
If there's not enough room for the stack to compress, binding will occur.
PMAGs have sufficient extra room when loaded to 30, but not all USGI mags do, hence the workaround of downloading to 28.
Always the GI mags at first, why I thought it was the mags.
I knew I had a problem when I pulled the handle on a Gen M3 30 the other day and the bolt stopped halfway home.
With the carbine/H setup, and those GI mags loaded to 28, and they feed 100%, even the worst offender.
I was adamant about loading to 28 23 years ago when I had my first big stoppage on a reload. The internet got the best of me and I was loading up to 30 with some aftermarket springs and it bit me.
I know there are multiple guns giving you trouble. I thought you tried the Tubb spring in one of them and found this:
"Loaded to 28 it chambers fine. Stuffed to 30 and it’s sluggish with the bolt release, sometimes stops with the charging handle."
Was that written about the Vltor spring instead?
You have a lot going on. I would take a few of the good-to-go mags, the best upper, the longest rifle spring/Springco green, and an H0 buffer and use these same parts in each lower to function test each one. In my opinion, you need to make sure each lower is functioning correctly, both in terms of assembly and the parts kits themselves.
Tubbs, heavier buffers, etc. are all going to reduce the cyclic rate which can could be introducing issues depending on the combination of parts.
You have a lot going on. I would take a few of the good-to-go mags, the best upper, the longest rifle spring/Springco green, and an H0 buffer and use these same parts in each lower to function test each one. In my opinion, you need to make sure each lower is functioning correctly, both in terms of assembly and the parts kits themselves.
Tubbs, heavier buffers, etc. are all going to reduce the cyclic rate which can could be introducing issues depending on the combination of parts.
The Springco Green is a no-go for him. In the original post he outlines his need for a stainless spring due to saltwater.
You have a lot going on. I would take a few of the good-to-go mags, the best upper, the longest rifle spring/Springco green, and an H0 buffer and use these same parts in each lower to function test each one. In my opinion, you need to make sure each lower is functioning correctly, both in terms of assembly and the parts kits themselves.
Tubbs, heavier buffers, etc. are all going to reduce the cyclic rate which can could be introducing issues depending on the combination of parts.
I don’t think there’s anything going on outside of weak springs (that are just as long as new ones) and maybe the A5 isn’t optimal on a 6920.
The lowers and LPKits are all SOLGW, magazine ride height and carrier travel are what they should be.
The Springco Green is a no-go for him. In the original post he outlines his need for a stainless spring due to saltwater.
This is true. I rusted a Sprinco Blue a long time ago and really don’t think CS springs are for me.
Long story short:
... corrosion has been an issue in the past with those (saltwater/air environment).
Are you scuba diving or swimming in sea water?
I've been stationed, exercised, and fought in the tropics and never saw serious/major red rust forming on recoil springs -- even with our maritime, scout-swimmer, and SCUBA teams.
I've been stationed, exercised, and fought in the tropics and never saw serious/major red rust forming on recoil springs -- even with our maritime, scout-swimmer, and SCUBA teams.
CLP or something more?
Uncle Sam only buys CLP for mass-issue, otherwise LSA.
I've been stationed, exercised, and fought in the tropics and never saw serious/major red rust forming on recoil springsBut those springs were probably the mil-spec stainless, yes? In my limited experience, chrome-silicon springs seem to want to rust if you just look at them while thinking about water….
Are you scuba diving or swimming in sea water?
I've been stationed, exercised, and fought in the tropics and never saw serious/major red rust forming on recoil springs -- even with our maritime, scout-swimmer, and SCUBA teams.
Salt air environment and they stay outside/in trucks all the time, so lots of humidity and temp swings/condensation at times.
Salt air environment and they stay outside/in trucks all the time, so lots of humidity and temp swings/condensation at times.
Have you had problems with other parts in that environment? The bolt catch plunger spring for example?
Have you had problems with other parts in that environment? The bolt catch plunger spring for example?
The only thing that really rusts is barrels under the hadguard, takedown pins, and trigger shoes.
Step 1: don’t use an A5H3 in a 6920…
I’m pretty sure my 6920-R has a VLTOR A5 receiver extension installed. I should have an A5-H3 in some AR. I have a couple old (but low round count) Tubbs springs, and a variety of Sprincos. I’m curious how well it’ll work for me.
Step 1: don’t use an A5H3 in a 6920…
I’m pretty sure my 6920-R has a VLTOR A5 receiver extension installed. I should have an A5-H3 in some AR. I have a couple old (but low round count) Tubbs springs, and a variety of Sprincos. I’m curious how well it’ll work for me.
Iraqgunz liked a 6920 with a Sprinco Green and A5-4.
I have no doubt that it would function, cleaned, lubed, firm support, good ammo, but over the long run you’ll see problems. It’s honestly not as reliable as just leaving it alone.
Iraqgunz liked a 6920 with a Sprinco Green and A5-4.
I have no doubt that it would function, cleaned, lubed, firm support, good ammo, but over the long run you’ll see problems. It’s honestly not as reliable as just leaving it alone.
I find that hard to believe. Do you have a link?
I find that hard to believe. Do you have a link?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?131839-Additional-Vltor-A5-Testing
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?131839-Additional-Vltor-A5-Testing
Thanks. Interesting.
JP does not specify and (reputable) sellers are all over the map in their descriptions. Some say this, some say that, and others do not specify material at all. (Brownells, Midway, Primary Arms, etc.)
I found an old post on the JP springs. WS6 found them to corrode very quickly in his dishwasher test.
I have continued my corrosion testing to include JP's tuned and polished spring. However, it failed (all 3 that I ordered...) before they got to my house...
I am disappointed in the JP "polished and tuned" springs I ordered. I am a corrosion-phobe, and test things beyond realism when it comes to that aspect of performance. Why? It's humid where I live. I've had firearms damaged by rust before even in less humid areas. The 3 springs I ordered arrived pre-corroded in their wrappers. Now, it wasn't BAD, but you have to understand how springs work. The surface of a spring is VERY important to the properties of it. Moreso than the core or intermediate material, regarding its "ability to spring". What's more, half of the description of these things is "polished". They aren't too "polishy and slick" when they are rusted on the surface. Rust by nature tends to be a bit rough. So what did I do? I popped one of the corroded springs into my dish-washer. Why? It simulates what I might take the rifle through regarding humidity and rain at an all-day training course, or hunting. The wash cycle is not even close to done yet, and the spring is looking...rough. As in, like a Cheeto, after about 15 minutes. Might be good in a competition gun, but for a duty rifle that may ride in a hot, humid police vehicle, or be taken out on a call in the rain, or trained with, or hunted with...I'd make a difference choice. It not only failed my rather "tough" testing, it arrived rusted in what appeared to be an almost air-tight package.
Rust can clearly be seen evidenced both on the blue paper inside the wrapper, and to the right of the rust spots on the wrapper, seen on the surface of the spring.
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13254737_815213974101_1246588540199483284_o.jpg
I have not contacted JP, because this is not a customer service or product failure issue, it is a design concept flaw of using un-coated music-wire in the wrong environmental application. While one can argue "your gun won't go in the dish-washer!", I can argue "A polished spring should not arrive corroded, and the fact that it did indicates that the process will likely continue at any out-door match, if it can take hold in a warehouse within the safety of its factory packaging."
Yep. Rifle springs that came with the A5 kits direct from VLTOR.
BufordTJustice reported that the Vltor springs are indeed weaker than a Colt spring.
The colt spring has more pre load than the supplied Vltor spring. If running weak ammo is important, user the Vltor spring or a Wolff reduced power rifle spring. I use the Wolff RP to great effect.
The Brownells CS rifle spring is slightly weaker than the Vltor as well. The colt is nearly as stiff as the Springco green.
I own all of these springs.
BufordTJustice
09-02-21, 16:52
BufordTJustice reported that the Vltor springs are indeed weaker than a Colt spring.
I forgot I did that. Lol.
True and correct. I still use the copper colored Vltor rifle springs in my wife's AR. A little easier for her to run the charging handle.
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Do you currently use the Tubb AR10 spring in your A5 systems?
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