View Full Version : Yaa! Abortion is back in the news- actual concern about new 'bounty' provision
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-03-21, 16:10
Before this becomes a complete crap-fest, just a couple of procedural things that I think are relevant to us:
The MSM making it out to be that it was some sweeping decision when it was a vote procedural issues. Standing- it's a bitch. And the left has jammed that down our throats for decades. Remember when the guys who wrote, ran and paid for Prop8 (sanctity of marriage) ballot measure in CA weren't allowed to defend it in court because they, of all people, didn't have 'standing'. So F the dems.
Funny, I don't hear much about 'democracy' and voice of the people... this is a law by duly elected officials, where are the dems demanding that we protect voting and representatives? So F the dems.
Psaki- she narrowly got out of the low blow she did to the male reporter. He's a male so he doesn't have a say abortion? Uhm, Jen have you ever had an abortion, since you are the final say on this? Uhm, Jen, according to your side, men can have babies too... And lastly, why is this a female only issue? Weren't we all babies? Doesn't that give us all a say? OR are you holding the unborn hostage? God, I used to have a thing for red heads, but after this dumb-ass, she cured me. So F the Dems...
Finally, and really the main part of my reason for bringing this up- the structure of the law. It's hard to get the actual legal issues and structure of the law, but the 'bounty' is interesting. Reminds me of the ADA compliance lawsuit/shakedowns. But what I'm concerned about is the left taking a similar strategy on guns. Not sure how it could actually work, but I could see them, with their lack of respect of the 1A and 2A that if you post something about being progun or say that looters should be shot, that they could sue you for formenting or enabling violence. Any Texas lawyers have any insights into the law and how that approach might work on different areas?
Inkslinger
09-03-21, 16:27
Seeing as per capita, more black babies are aborted than any other race, if you’re pro abortion you must be a racist. Isn’t that how we determine reality now a days…?
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-03-21, 16:33
Seeing as per capita, more black babies are aborted than any other race, if you’re pro abortion you must be a racist. Isn’t that how we determine reality now a days…?
Come on, we all know it is global warming that is something, something, abortion. ;)
Any chance of a bounty based anti-2A law?
Inkslinger
09-03-21, 16:39
Come on, we all know it is global warming that is something, something, abortion. ;)
Any chance of a bounty based anti-2A law?
If there is, I hope they’re toting bear spray like Dog The Bounty Hunter.
So my basic 101 problem is this.
1. Men don't get to decide if the baby is kept, even if they really want it.
2. Men are automatically made financially responsible for any children.
If "choice" to conceive is 100% up to the female than the male should not be held financially responsible for a choice he had no say in.
davidjinks
09-03-21, 18:59
I’m subscribing to your news letter! Please tell me more!
So my basic 101 problem is this.
1. Men don't get to decide if the baby is kept, even if they really want it.
2. Men are automatically made financially responsible for any children.
If "choice" to conceive is 100% up to the female than the male should not be held financially responsible for a choice he had no say in.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-03-21, 18:59
Absolutely. I have said that for years and get little more than howls insults from women. They definitely want to cherry pick the best of feminism and paternalism.
So my basic 101 problem is this.
1. Men don't get to decide if the baby is kept, even if they really want it.
2. Men are automatically made financially responsible for any children.
If "choice" to conceive is 100% up to the female than the male should not be held financially responsible for a choice he had no say in.
titsonritz
09-03-21, 20:10
I just want to see how they are going to spin "My Body, My Choice" for abortion vs vax.
titsonritz
09-03-21, 20:10
So my basic 101 problem is this.
1. Men don't get to decide if the baby is kept, even if they really want it.
2. Men are automatically made financially responsible for any children.
If "choice" to conceive is 100% up to the female than the male should not be held financially responsible for a choice he had no say in.
And yes, 100%.
Someone going to explain this "bounty" thing, or post a link to an explanation...??
Umm...I don't care what Jen thinks. She has no right to assume my gender. Furthermore she has no right to assume who can and can't be birthing people.
You say all it takes to be a woman is to say you're a woman so I demand an apology for assuming I can/can't be a berthing person or that I'm or am not woman!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/biden-admin-replaces-mothers-birthing-people-maternal-health-guidance-1598343%3famp=1
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5054296001
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Someone going to explain this "bounty" thing, or post a link to an explanation...??
If I understand it correctly, the State doesn’t do the enforcement, rather private entities are allowed to sue those who get, perform, or otherwise abet abortions after the ~6th week. Those bringing suit need not have any connection to those involved with the abortion.
The bounty analogy comes in because private entities are doing the State’s work for them, like bringing in wanted individuals.
That no one has been named in a suit yet is why the higher courts have been reluctant to get involved. As of now, the Supremes say no one has standing to challenge the law.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
09-04-21, 01:34
Planned Parenthood got served and the local state judge put a stay on it and all the other cases that may come up. So all that for what amounts for a 24 hour delay versus the old model.
morbidbattlecry
09-04-21, 18:54
I just want to see how they are going to spin "My Body, My Choice" for abortion vs vax.
There is no spin to be spun. You can't claim a right for yourself and then turn around and say it's not for someone else because you don't like their version of it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-05-21, 12:40
OK, I think I see the play. Or what could happen. California, either with current gun laws, or with a new one, makes it a civil offense and allows people to sue people $10k for possessing what is banned.
OK, I think I see the play. Or what could happen. California, either with current gun laws, or with a new one, makes it a civil offense and allows people to sue people $10k for possessing what is banned.
Already have it. They’re called “Red Flag Laws”. They just don’t come with monetary damages (yet).
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Averageman
09-05-21, 18:52
You know;
I've been single for a while,
I'm 60 now, but when I was 56, I knocked up a 44 year old woman, who had assured me that she could not get pregnant.
Your mind goes some strange places and you might do the math and decide to pull that trigger.
You know, I hate to say it, but I am awfully glad she miscarried.
And that's just the truth about that.
Before this becomes a complete crap-fest, just a couple of procedural things that I think are relevant to us:
The MSM making it out to be that it was some sweeping decision when it was a vote procedural issues. Standing- it's a bitch. And the left has jammed that down our throats for decades. Remember when the guys who wrote, ran and paid for Prop8 (sanctity of marriage) ballot measure in CA weren't allowed to defend it in court because they, of all people, didn't have 'standing'. So F the dems.
Funny, I don't hear much about 'democracy' and voice of the people... this is a law by duly elected officials, where are the dems demanding that we protect voting and representatives? So F the dems.
Psaki- she narrowly got out of the low blow she did to the male reporter. He's a male so he doesn't have a say abortion? Uhm, Jen have you ever had an abortion, since you are the final say on this? Uhm, Jen, according to your side, men can have babies too... And lastly, why is this a female only issue? Weren't we all babies? Doesn't that give us all a say? OR are you holding the unborn hostage? God, I used to have a thing for red heads, but after this dumb-ass, she cured me. So F the Dems...
Finally, and really the main part of my reason for bringing this up- the structure of the law. It's hard to get the actual legal issues and structure of the law, but the 'bounty' is interesting. Reminds me of the ADA compliance lawsuit/shakedowns. But what I'm concerned about is the left taking a similar strategy on guns. Not sure how it could actually work, but I could see them, with their lack of respect of the 1A and 2A that if you post something about being progun or say that looters should be shot, that they could sue you for formenting or enabling violence. Any Texas lawyers have any insights into the law and how that approach might work on different areas?
With regards to your last part about the way the law was written, my trust attorney emailed us this:
https://www.ctmtips.com/doug-turner-texas-law-note/
Apparently it is quite relevant to the 2A.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
09-06-21, 05:54
Already have it. They’re called “Red Flag Laws”. They just don’t come with monetary damages (yet).
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That was one of my first thoughts- this would weaponize the red flag laws. IS that civil or Crim?
Frankly, it would be interesting for NY or CA to try it. Frankly, even if limited to a AWB gun set, it might force SCOTUS to finally sanctify AW possession.
There is no spin to be spun. You can't claim a right for yourself and then turn around and say it's not for someone else because you don't like their version of it.
You obviously have not been paying attention to the MO of modern day “liberals”..
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That was one of my first thoughts- this would weaponize the red flag laws. IS that civil or Crim?
Frankly, it would be interesting for NY or CA to try it. Frankly, even if limited to a AWB gun set, it might force SCOTUS to finally sanctify AW possession.
I’d assume red flag was civil because no law was broken.
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You know;
I've been single for a while,
I'm 60 now, but when I was 56, I knocked up a 44 year old woman, who had assured me that she could not get pregnant.
Your mind goes some strange places and you might do the math and decide to pull that trigger.
You know, I hate to say it, but I am awfully glad she miscarried.
And that's just the truth about that.
The Texas law affects surgical abortion, not drug initiated abortion. There is no medical need for surgical abortions.
Planned Parenthood and the other abortion companies are whipping up their minions to protect their business model of 2nd/3rd trimester surgical abortion to re-sell fetus tissue for profit.
Andy
Averageman
09-06-21, 17:21
The Texas law affects surgical abortion, not drug initiated abortion. There is no medical need for surgical abortions.
Planned Parenthood and the other abortion companies are whipping up their minions to protect their business model of 2nd/3rd trimester surgical abortion to re-sell fetus tissue for profit.
Andy
That wasn't my point Andy, what I was trying to say is never say never.
I dont care if it is chemical or surgical, sometimes your left with a tough choice either way.
That wasn't my point Andy, what I was trying to say is never say never.
I dont care if it is chemical or surgical, sometimes your left with a tough choice either way.
I understood your point and just meant to say there is still an option. Then I went down a rant rabbit hole.
Andy
I could have a little more respect for them if they could just call it what it is, homicide. There are legal forms of homicide as some of us can attest, but its evident who the real baby killers are and its not the military.
I could have a little more respect for them if they could just call it what it is, homicide. There are legal forms of homicide as some of us can attest, but its evident who the real baby killers are and its not the military.
Do you consider a fertilized egg to be a baby?
I think the problem most of us have is late term abortions for obvious reasons. That and lazy, irresponsible people who use abortion as a method of birth control rather than using any of the many, many options that prevent pregnancy in the first place.
Abortions should be very special circumstance procedures, such as when the pregnancy risks the life of the mother, the presence of very serious birth defects and things like that. But somebody who is just going "ooopsie I got knocked up again" and then waits and waits to address it, it becomes more and more of a problem.
Averageman
09-06-21, 20:10
Abortions should be very special circumstance procedures, such as when the pregnancy risks the life of the mother, the presence of very serious birth defects and things like that. But somebody who is just going "ooopsie I got knocked up again" and then waits and waits to address it, it becomes more and more of a problem.
I can agree.
Do you consider a fertilized egg to be a baby?
I think the problem most of us have is late term abortions for obvious reasons. That and lazy, irresponsible people who use abortion as a method of birth control rather than using any of the many, many options that prevent pregnancy in the first place.
Abortions should be very special circumstance procedures, such as when the pregnancy risks the life of the mother, the presence of very serious birth defects and things like that. But somebody who is just going "ooopsie I got knocked up again" and then waits and waits to address it, it becomes more and more of a problem.
A fertilized egg is a new human being, and yes, I would call it a baby.
There is never a good reason to unjustly take the life of a human being. Both of you were that fertilized egg once. If we start rationalizing our decision...well in these circumstances it's ok. in these it's not ok, we've essential decided we're God. The human heart is a very dark place. You either respect and count that life precious or you start looking for ways to sooth your seared conscience with lies.
The darkness of the human heart....https://protestia.com/2021/09/06/satanic-temple-may-be-last-hope-to-stop-texas-abortion-law-seriously/
Averageman
09-06-21, 21:26
Well I hear you can make a condom out of epoxy, so there's always that.
morbidbattlecry
09-06-21, 21:27
I'm confused about the same group of people can say government is too big and needs to get out of peoples lives turn around and have the government interfere with bodily autonomy. One of the most basic rights afforded to us.
I'm confused about the same group of people can say government is too big and needs to get out of peoples lives turn around and have the government interfere with bodily autonomy. One of the most basic rights afforded to us.
You are right, the government should not be wasting resources to certify and inspect abortion facilities that birth control has made redundant.
Birth control is cheap and readily available in many forms. Health insurance is required to cover birth control. Condoms are cheap, if not free, plus protect against disease.
Medically necessary abortions can be performed by a doctor and funded by health insurance.
"Body autonomy" "reproductive rights" "our most basic right" - abortions have become an easy out for women too lazy or careless to use a plethora of birth control methods or even condoms.
Riddle me this - Why are we allowing a business started by a eugenics believer to continue to target African American women for abortions? Why do we want them to receive federal funding?
Andy
A fertilized egg is a new human being, and yes, I would call it a baby.
There is never a good reason to unjustly take the life of a human being. Both of you were that fertilized egg once. If we start rationalizing our decision...well in these circumstances it's ok. in these it's not ok, we've essential decided we're God. The human heart is a very dark place. You either respect and count that life precious or you start looking for ways to sooth your seared conscience with lies.
The darkness of the human heart....https://protestia.com/2021/09/06/satanic-temple-may-be-last-hope-to-stop-texas-abortion-law-seriously/
Well I could have guessed your position.
But we take human life all the time. Death penalty, war, indifference.
Of course if god really cared, we'd simply be immortal beings. If your god actually exists, he permitted industrial line murder of innocent men, women and children in the millions and a shocking number of those who imagined, implemented or otherwise directly participated in the events lived long lives and died of natural causes.
If jesus plans to return, I really want to know what he was doing in 1945 that was so damn important. But yeah, I know Gods plan and mysterious was and all of that.
Riddle me this - Why are we allowing a business started by a eugenics believer to continue to target African American women for abortions? Why do we want them to receive federal funding?
Andy
Without wading into a racist trap, there is an economics of abortion. I don't know that it helps anyone who is impoverished to have children. Sure there are numerous examples of ghetto kids that went on to greatness, but quite honestly even if they only went on to normal, happy and satisfied lives that would justify their survival. The problem is they seem to be greatly outnumbered by impoverished parents who sire feral humans capable of savagery and barbarity that nobody could intellectualize. They are predatory creatures who victimize the most civilized and as a consequence often the most vulnerable members of society. Problem is it's impossible to determine outcome at the time of birth but we have a general idea of likelihood.
And while eugenics is just another tool of statism that can't be justified, encouraged the least capable to have the most children is in itself a form of barbarity that placed a burden on those who support themselves and the children themselves are usually victimized to a great extent.
As an extreme example to demonstrate a point, if given a choice to be born to a family of Somali pirates or to never have existed at all, I'll take oblivion. I have it pretty good by global standards but even my life has dealt me some shitty cards and if there is a god and this is his grand plan then I'm going to want a debriefing and an explanation.
Well I could have guessed your position.
But we take human life all the time. Death penalty, war, indifference.
Of course if god really cared, we'd simply be immortal beings. If your god actually exists, he permitted industrial line murder of innocent men, women and children in the millions and a shocking number of those who imagined, implemented or otherwise directly participated in the events lived long lives and died of natural causes.
If jesus plans to return, I really want to know what he was doing in 1945 that was so damn important. But yeah, I know Gods plan and mysterious was and all of that.
And I could have guessed your position. The baby, you know it's a baby, is innocent before men. He or she didn't hurt anyone unjustly. But you can rationalize His or Hers murder by saying, well they're deformed, we'll kill it, that's evidently the "just" and humane thing. As for God, no one is innocent before Him, and when man committed high treason against Him, we all got coming to us a lot worse than industrialized murder. Men have always wanted to play God, whether in wars, or the application of their twisted megalomania, maybe we should change that...maybe...we should love our neighbor as ourselves and stop murdering the most helpless and defenseless among us so we can be comfortable.
Without wading into a racist trap, there is an economics of abortion. I don't know that it helps anyone who is impoverished to have children. Sure there are numerous examples of ghetto kids that went on to greatness, but quite honestly even if they only went on to normal, happy and satisfied lives that would justify their survival. The problem is they seem to be greatly outnumbered by impoverished parents who sire feral humans capable of savagery and barbarity that nobody could intellectualize. They are predatory creatures who victimize the most civilized and as a consequence often the most vulnerable members of society. Problem is it's impossible to determine outcome at the time of birth but we have a general idea of likelihood.
And while eugenics is just another tool of statism that can't be justified, encouraged the least capable to have the most children is in itself a form of barbarity that placed a burden on those who support themselves and the children themselves are usually victimized to a great extent.
As an extreme example to demonstrate a point, if given a choice to be born to a family of Somali pirates or to never have existed at all, I'll take oblivion. I have it pretty good by global standards but even my life has dealt me some shitty cards and if there is a god and this is his grand plan then I'm going to want a debriefing and an explanation.
I understand why impoverished women feel that having a child would trap them and that they will not be able to offer a child anything in life. It is certainly true given our societal norms. I am intelligent enough to understand that a combination of factors results in a high number of African American women with unwanted pregnancies.
Perhaps if the "reproductive rights" groups focused their attention on influencing those factors, they could help people rise up instead of standing on their necks while someone vaccums a once-living child out of them.
I choose born to Samali pirates over oblivion.
Andy
And I could have guessed your position. The baby, you know it's a baby, is innocent before men. He or she didn't hurt anyone unjustly. But you can rationalize His or Hers murder by saying, well they're deformed, we'll kill it, that's evidently the "just" and humane thing. As for God, no one is innocent before Him, and when man committed high treason against Him, we all got coming to us a lot worse than industrialized murder. Men have always wanted to play God, whether in wars, or the application of their twisted megalomania, maybe we should change that...maybe...we should love our neighbor as ourselves and stop murdering the most helpless and defenseless among us so we can be comfortable.
So first things first, "deformed" is not the same thing as "serious birth defects." Lots of kids are born with deformities and live life just fine. I'm talking about serious birth defects, things where life is going to be a matter of months only and those months spent in agony. And again if you could take me to some form of afterlife and give me a choice between serious birth defects and oblivion, I'll take oblivion thanks.
And you don't have to be a baby to be innocent, I know you subscribe to original sin, but I do not. Most people are innocent and because of the unfortunate location of their birth many know only misery and finally death.
That you can condone industrial murder because you believe an ancient man ate from the tree of knowledge, well to my POV that is about as evil as it comes and the god known as Yahweh is one of the most evil entities to ever exist. He made a flawed product and then forever blamed his creation for it's flaws.
Personally I kinda hope there is no god, no afterlife, no meaning...because if this existence is by design then millions are consigned to needless deaths every year and more babies die of neglect, starvation or other deprivations than from abortion. You want to save babies? Tell god to stop having them born into the worst parts of the third world and other places of barbarity where they don't stand a chance.
I understand why impoverished women feel that having a child would trap them and that they will not be able to offer a child anything in life. It is certainly true given our societal norms. I am intelligent enough to understand that a combination of factors results in a high number of African American women with unwanted pregnancies.
Perhaps if the "reproductive rights" groups focused their attention on influencing those factors, they could help people rise up instead of standing on their necks while someone vaccums a once-living child out of them.
I choose born to Samali pirates over oblivion.
Andy
Given Planned Parenthoods track record of PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies, I don't see them curing societies cultural flaws. They should stick to trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies and nothing more. If they did that more successfully, there would be less need for abortion. But it's hard to make irresponsible people act responsibly so there we sit.
As for me, I'd be fine with oblivion. I wouldn't exist in any shape or form so I'd never know the difference. I wish humans were more civilized, I wish we had better plans, I wish we could bring into being a world with no real suffering where the innocent are protected and predatory feral humans not tolerated but that isn't what we are born into.
Maybe all things are relative, maybe people born in China consider themselves lucky because they have food, some clothes and shelter and don't know what life is like elsewhere. Maybe Somali's consider drug addicted lives that end around 40 years of age acceptable and normal.
My problem is I form attachments to people, places and things and I care. And every time something happens to one of them it's painful. I've tried to be philosophically Buddhist where I move beyond my desire for things to be how I think they should be but I'm a pretty crappy Buddhist. I like owning things, I love my dogs and it kills me just a little bit each time when I lose my loved ones. I want thing to be better, I want them to improve and I want to have a good life so I will likely never free myself from any of those attachments even though philosophically I know they are the source of my pain.
I don't do indifference in the grand scheme of things very well. I also generally suck at acceptance of horrible things and there have been a few times I'd have been willing to trade my life to change things back. Oddly enough when it comes to my personal existence, there have been some times (honestly too many) when I was capable of serious indifference but when it comes to things I do hold valuable some of those can be important to a level that most other people can't understand.
I think I tend to do Buddhism backwards placing great value on things and desires for the way life should be while placing far less value on my actual existence. It's not that I don't like living, it's just that I have a track record of doing things that can be counter productive to continued existence.
sandsunsurf
09-07-21, 11:18
Finally, and really the main part of my reason for bringing this up- the structure of the law. It's hard to get the actual legal issues and structure of the law, but the 'bounty' is interesting. Reminds me of the ADA compliance lawsuit/shakedowns. But what I'm concerned about is the left taking a similar strategy on guns. Not sure how it could actually work, but I could see them, with their lack of respect of the 1A and 2A that if you post something about being progun or say that looters should be shot, that they could sue you for formenting or enabling violence. Any Texas lawyers have any insights into the law and how that approach might work on different areas?
The risk to the 2A from this tactic CANNOT BE OVERSTATED. It is coming, and coming soon. The religious right made a bad move here- playing checkers, not chess. So. Phucking. Stupid. There was nothing wrong with TX law as it was, this was not a fight worth getting involved in, and now gun owners will pay a stiff price (and protecting the 2A IS a fight worth being in).
This is all because some dumbass guys want to force women to have the babies they don't want, and those same guys don't want to let the women take birth control, nor will their church support these same women, so then the .gov pays for the women and children.
We ought to give out birth control pills like candy starting in high school, but as noted above, you can lead a horse to water, but....
An abortion costs a WHOLE lot less than WIC, SNAP, HUD and welfare for the life of the mother and kid. The gov would be better off paying for abortions, too.
So first things first, "deformed" is not the same thing as "serious birth defects." Lots of kids are born with deformities and live life just fine. I'm talking about serious birth defects, things where life is going to be a matter of months only and those months spent in agony. And again if you could take me to some form of afterlife and give me a choice between serious birth defects and oblivion, I'll take oblivion thanks.
And you don't have to be a baby to be innocent, I know you subscribe to original sin, but I do not. Most people are innocent and because of the unfortunate location of their birth many know only misery and finally death.
That you can condone industrial murder because you believe an ancient man ate from the tree of knowledge, well to my POV that is about as evil as it comes and the god known as Yahweh is one of the most evil entities to ever exist. He made a flawed product and then forever blamed his creation for it's flaws.
Personally I kinda hope there is no god, no afterlife, no meaning...because if this existence is by design then millions are consigned to needless deaths every year and more babies die of neglect, starvation or other deprivations than from abortion. You want to save babies? Tell god to stop having them born into the worst parts of the third world and other places of barbarity where they don't stand a chance.
I condoned industrial murder? That's about the most asinine statement from your keyboard I've witnessed. But hoping there is no God and no meaning is probably worse.
What a life, no purpose, no hope, no future....it's all just a meaningless waste of effort, time, and verbiage. The annihilation of man. But hey, hold onto your porn, it'll get you through.
Abortion discissions follow a pattern, don't they?
I can tell you for certain that most Americans believe abortion should be a choice available to women but also believe there should be limits.
Andy
The risk to the 2A from this tactic CANNOT BE OVERSTATED. It is coming, and coming soon. The religious right made a bad move here- playing checkers, not chess. So. Phucking. Stupid. There was nothing wrong with TX law as it was, this was not a fight worth getting involved in, and now gun owners will pay a stiff price (and protecting the 2A IS a fight worth being in).
This is all because some dumbass guys want to force women to have the babies they don't want, and those same guys don't want to let the women take birth control, nor will their church support these same women, so then the .gov pays for the women and children.
We ought to give out birth control pills like candy starting in high school, but as noted above, you can lead a horse to water, but....
An abortion costs a WHOLE lot less than WIC, SNAP, HUD and welfare for the life of the mother and kid. The gov would be better off paying for abortions, too.
"Forcing women to have babies they don't want". Do you even realize that it actually and really is a "BABY"????? An innocent human being that's on the chopping block of, well, I just don't want it? Let the blood letting begin. All for your precious guns. I've certainly come to the conclusion that "gun owners" are most definitely NOT my friends, but for the most part, my enemies. What a jacked up country.
Abortion discissions follow a pattern, don't they?
I can tell you for certain that most Americans believe abortion should be a choice available to women but also believe there should be limits.
Andy
As long as there is one real Christian left there will be someone to testify against the ABSOLUTE horror of abortion. And I don't care that "Americans" want abortion of some kind, they're wrong, really wrong.
I condoned industrial murder? That's about the most asinine statement from your keyboard I've witnessed. But hoping there is no God and no meaning is probably worse.
What a life, no purpose, no hope, no future....it's all just a meaningless waste of effort, time, and verbiage. The annihilation of man. But hey, hold onto your porn, it'll get you through.
Well I took this statement as tacit approval of God's actions.
As for God, no one is innocent before Him, and when man committed high treason against Him, we all got coming to us a lot worse than industrialized murder.
As for no meaning, if we are in fact just a cosmic accident, then I'll just do my best to enjoy the ride. Also my rejection of Yahweh does not exclude a creator, Spinoza touched on this.
Well I took this statement as tacit approval of God's actions.
As for no meaning, if we are in fact just a cosmic accident, then I'll just do my best to enjoy the ride. Also my rejection of Yahweh does not exclude a creator, Spinoza touched on this.
God's actions are always right, what God thinks, says, or does is the very definition of what is meant by right. It's also true that by definition God can not and does not murder. His taking life is ALWAYS justly done. No one is innocent before Him, we have all broken His commandments in a million different ways, every day of our lives. Jesus had to die in my stead because of the wrath, judgement , and hell I so richly deserved. You see, it's not just "them" out there that got it coming, it's ME that has it coming.
Would it be ok to "enjoy" serial murder? Everything is meaningless right? Maybe torturing to death people by drilling holes in their head is enjoyable, people have actually done this. Or maybe a society can sooth their sinful consciences by telling themselves that the slaughter of 55-60 million children was "enjoyable".
And your possible creator...who and what is he/she/they/it? Has this creator revealed anything about itself at all, or is this creator just a phantom in your mind that's only real purpose is to green light whatever you think, say or do? At least with the Christian God He cares enough to tell us about Himself, and to hold us to a high moral code, not treating us like brute beasts.
sandsunsurf
09-07-21, 20:01
God's actions are always right, what God thinks, says, or does is the very definition of what is meant by right.
I find it interesting that you so strongly believe in a supreme being that can do no wrong. Gods were made up by humans to explain the (at the time) unexplainable. Early humans had multiple gods, to explain everything from rain to death. Then monotheistic groups came into being, with different ideas of who the immortal omnipotent one was; then came many wars. In the mean time, scientists and critical thinkers figured a lot of shit out. The sun rises because the earth orbits around it. Rain comes because of physics. People get scared just before death because we have a really effective neural network of cells in our brain (which of course we all literally know is from evolution). There’s no longer a need for humans to believe in some fictional higher power.
Is there other life in the universe? Absolutely. Are there sentient beings smarter or more powerful and knowledgeable than us? Likely. Were we created by one? Almost certainly not. Were we created in “his likeness”? Absolutely not and it’s incredibly vain and arrogant to think so.
So back to abortions. Yep it sucks that a possible life gets killed by an abortion. That’s why the “viable fetus” rule is in place. It draws a line but also gives the mother options prior to the fetus being viable aka surviving and being a human.
Do you think abortion is ok after rape or incest? If so, then what’s the difference between your line and the Supreme Court’s and why do you have a line at all?
-all of this is said with a conversational tone and I would say it nicely in person, over coffee or a beer- please don’t take it any other way.
I find it interesting that you so strongly believe in a supreme being that can do no wrong. Gods were made up by humans to explain the (at the time) unexplainable. Early humans had multiple gods, to explain everything from rain to death. Then monotheistic groups came into being, with different ideas of who the immortal omnipotent one was; then came many wars. In the mean time, scientists and critical thinkers figured a lot of shit out. The sun rises because the earth orbits around it. Rain comes because of physics. People get scared just before death because we have a really effective neural network of cells in our brain (which of course we all literally know is from evolution). There’s no longer a need for humans to believe in some fictional higher power.
Is there other life in the universe? Absolutely. Are there sentient beings smarter or more powerful and knowledgeable than us? Likely. Were we created by one? Almost certainly not. Were we created in “his likeness”? Absolutely not and it’s incredibly vain and arrogant to think so.
So back to abortions. Yep it sucks that a possible life gets killed by an abortion. That’s why the “viable fetus” rule is in place. It draws a line but also gives the mother options prior to the fetus being viable aka surviving and being a human.
Do you think abortion is ok after rape or incest? If so, then what’s the difference between your line and the Supreme Court’s and why do you have a line at all?
-all of this is said with a conversational tone and I would say it nicely in person, over coffee or a beer- please don’t take it any other way.
What men will do to justify their depravity. Yeah it's a life but who gives a rats ass. Men loves death and so do you.
The rest of your post is a series of ridicules assertions. For example, men made up God, how do you know that? Were you there, were the people you're appealing to there? Maybe God actually does exist and He revealed Himself to a select group, maybe the idea of God is innate to our thinking because God made us that way. Maybe the ancient Jews were on to something, when them living in a vast ocean of pagan polytheism and all it's disastrous ways discovered a true monotheism with a moral code with western civilization 3500 years later.
Have I not made myself clear? Murder is NEVER justified. Only a sinful, unregenerate mind would think it's a good thing to murder a helpless baby made in God's image for the sins of his or her father. Yes, it's a very difficult situation, but a women who has the love of God in her heart can and should rise above the babblings of this world telling her....kill it....kill it, we all agree....kill it. God's people are called to overcome the trials and sufferings of this life with faith and love, not an expedient, just do as the world does. We haven't progressed past the pagans of ancient Rome concerning their children, 2000 years and we're murdering our children faster than they could have imagined. Why, the pagans of this era have learned to industrialize the murder.
God's actions are always right, what God thinks, says, or does is the very definition of what is meant by right. It's also true that by definition God can not and does not murder. His taking life is ALWAYS justly done. No one is innocent before Him, we have all broken His commandments in a million different ways, every day of our lives. Jesus had to die in my stead because of the wrath, judgement , and hell I so richly deserved. You see, it's not just "them" out there that got it coming, it's ME that has it coming.
Would it be ok to "enjoy" serial murder? Everything is meaningless right? Maybe torturing to death people by drilling holes in their head is enjoyable, people have actually done this. Or maybe a society can sooth their sinful consciences by telling themselves that the slaughter of 55-60 million children was "enjoyable".
And your possible creator...who and what is he/she/they/it? Has this creator revealed anything about itself at all, or is this creator just a phantom in your mind that's only real purpose is to green light whatever you think, say or do? At least with the Christian God He cares enough to tell us about Himself, and to hold us to a high moral code, not treating us like brute beasts.
So I don't need a god in order to realize murder, rape and things like that are wrong. And if fear of god is all that is keeping a person from being a murderer or a rapists, then they really aren't a good person.
But more importantly, and as somebody already noted, these discussions seem to only go one way. And quite honestly I'm not heavily invested in the subject enough to have this debate...again.
So go with god, be a good person and we shall all try and do the same.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-07-21, 21:13
The risk to the 2A from this tactic CANNOT BE OVERSTATED. It is coming, and coming soon. The religious right made a bad move here- playing checkers, not chess. So. Phucking. Stupid. There was nothing wrong with TX law as it was, this was not a fight worth getting involved in, and now gun owners will pay a stiff price (and protecting the 2A IS a fight worth being in).
This is all because some dumbass guys want to force women to have the babies they don't want, and those same guys don't want to let the women take birth control, nor will their church support these same women, so then the .gov pays for the women and children.
We ought to give out birth control pills like candy starting in high school, but as noted above, you can lead a horse to water, but....
An abortion costs a WHOLE lot less than WIC, SNAP, HUD and welfare for the life of the mother and kid. The gov would be better off paying for abortions, too.
The left will never spend money to go after guns, they’d rather spend it on other stuff, so they do these mag bans and stuff that you are supposed to follow, but they don’t really care- if you get caught, your problem.
The bounty system- becomes a fully weaponized and dangerous ‘Red Flag’ variant. Not only are people hunting you and your AR and mags- they will get your money (house, car) too. All those places in CO that sell ‘refurb’ mag kits. Instantly stopped or sued out of existence. WIth the bounty system, They don’t need to expend resources to get the guns, just put a bounty on them, that the gun guys have to pay. A self licking ice-cream cone.
And I don’t know if it is a flaw or a feature- imagine gun grabbers ratting out their neighbors…. Sweet Jesus that is a recipe for some SERIOUS vigilantism payback…. which I think the left would be just happy with.
So I don't need a god in order to realize murder, rape and things like that are wrong. And if fear of god is all that is keeping a person from being a murderer or a rapists, then they really aren't a good person.
But more importantly, and as somebody already noted, these discussions seem to only go one way. And quite honestly I'm not heavily invested in the subject enough to have this debate...again.
So go with god, be a good person and we shall all try and do the same.
Interesting, you throw words like "good" and "wrong" around as if they have some sort of permanent meaning. I "know" murder is wrong. Does this seemingly permanent meaning that murder is bad come from something permanent beyond the mere opinions of men? Maybe your own mind has made murder permanently bad, or society, or your friends minds, or 50% +1 of people who have lived in history, maybe something I haven't thought of.
By the way I don't doubt you know that something like murder is bad, I just don't think you could justify that knowledge.
Averageman
09-08-21, 07:53
I love the idea of a "Bounty", if someone did this with drug dealers, little old ladies scanning street corners with bino's and a lot of this would move off of the street.
sandsunsurf
09-08-21, 08:58
Tom, I fully respect that you don’t have a line, and that you believe it is ALWAYS wrong. You’re one of the few with real conviction, not just a different line. Kudos to your strong and clear stance. Most want some exceptions, making it easy to argue with. Like the old joke “we’ve established what you are, now we are negotiating price..”
In regards to a supreme being, of course I wasn’t there, but the stories are just so silly that it’s easy to see the nexus between why there was fear and thus a god was needed to explain. Joseph Smith would be committed to a mental institution today if he told the stories of how he wrote The Book of Mormon. And it’s likely you think he’s a nut job, too. But how is being Catholic any better? Why are there five or so different religions that all believe their one God is the Only God and all others are wrong? How can that be?
Also, I’m with Steyr on this: I don’t need a God and threat of hell to make me want to do the right thing with others and humanity.
I believe that the greater good of humanity can at times be more important than an individual, so I FULLY SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY. I think every person on death row should be gassed tomorrow. I think every prisoner that’s been convicted of a violent crime AND has had two prior felony convictions should be gassed next Monday. I think it should be three strikes and you’re out (permanently). And if a few abortions happen by mother’s choice prior to viability, I’m ok with that, too.
sandsunsurf
09-08-21, 09:01
I love the idea of a "Bounty", if someone did this with drug dealers, little old ladies scanning street corners with bino's and a lot of this would move off of the street.
Until that bounty is for being seen with an “assault rifle” at the range or a standard capacity STANAG magazine. Or your pistol brace touches your shoulder. Or your friend has a pistol brace but you drove both of you to the range and Jack Meoff down the firing line sees you and documents you both and you’re being sued for $10,000 each….
Adrenaline_6
09-08-21, 13:47
Is there other life in the universe? Absolutely. Are there sentient beings smarter or more powerful and knowledgeable than us? Likely. Were we created by one? Almost certainly not. Were we created in “his likeness”? Absolutely not and it’s incredibly vain and arrogant to think so.
Ummm....hate to break it to you, but there is zero proof of other life. Zero. Scientifically, is it a possibility? Sure. In other words though, the God theory is just as viable.
In regards to a supreme being, of course I wasn’t there, but the stories are just so silly that it’s easy to see the nexus between why there was fear and thus a god was needed to explain. Joseph Smith would be committed to a mental institution today if he told the stories of how he wrote The Book of Mormon. And it’s likely you think he’s a nut job, too. But how is being Catholic any better? Why are there five or so different religions that all believe their one God is the Only God and all others are wrong? How can that be?
Also, I’m with Steyr on this: I don’t need a God and threat of hell to make me want to do the right thing with others and humanity.
It's comical that you find God as being silly, but yet are totally cool with:
"the universe begun 13.7 billion years ago as a singularity. We don't know where it came from or why it appeared, but we just think it did and currently it defies our current understanding". Seriously? Your actually good with that?
None of us do the right things all the time to ourselves, others, or humanity. If you took time to understand, the threat of hell isn't really a threat at all. It is a certain absolute consequence. In which the only way out of it is salvation through Jesus Christ.
As far as people distorting religion for their gain, how is that different than anything else humans get a hold of? If you were Satan, getting people to not believe with confusion and corruption would just be another arrow in the quiver, don't you think?
As far as abortion goes, a life is a life. Once you draw a line, it can be moved.
Generally, I'm in favor of anything that pisses off Libtards. Period. I hate them.
Anything that can be done to undermine them, distress them, piss them off, make them cry, spend political capital or their money pointlessly, I'm in favor of. There is no pretending we still have a "system" of checks and balances etc....That somehow reason or logic, morality or ideological consistency means a Goddamn thing. This is simply a Cold War about to go hot. There are no rules. That's a good enough reason by itself. Us or them.
"Oh, we won't come to Texas now. " Good. You Communist pieces of shit. We don't want you here!
Generally, I'm in favor of anything that pisses off Libtards. Period. I hate them.
Anything that can be done to undermine them, distress them, piss them off, make them cry, spend political capital or their money pointlessly, I'm in favor of. There is no pretending we still have a "system" of checks and balances etc....This is simply a Cold War about to go hot. There are no rules. That's a good enough reason by itself. Us or them.
"Oh, we won't come to Texas now. " Good. You Communist pieces of shit. We don't want you here!
This.
Andy
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-08-21, 15:00
Abortion is degeneracy, plain and simple...and I'm completely uninterested in your whataboutisms and fringe scenarios in support of it.
Men with strongly held positions on abortion remind me of liberals and gun control. If the woman isn’t carrying your fetus it seems to me your position is more about controlling someone else’s behavior than anything else.
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-08-21, 17:31
Men with strongly held positions on abortion remind me of liberals and gun control. If the woman isn’t carrying your fetus it seems to me your position is more about controlling someone else’s behavior than anything else.
I couldn't care less what grown women do with their own bodies. It's what they're doing to the unborn baby they're carrying that I take issue with.
I realize this is an unpopular take and won't win me any friends, but I'm not here to make friends I'm here to talk about guns.
Interesting, you throw words like "good" and "wrong" around as if they have some sort of permanent meaning. I "know" murder is wrong. Does this seemingly permanent meaning that murder is bad come from something permanent beyond the mere opinions of men? Maybe your own mind has made murder permanently bad, or society, or your friends minds, or 50% +1 of people who have lived in history, maybe something I haven't thought of.
By the way I don't doubt you know that something like murder is bad, I just don't think you could justify that knowledge.
So starting with the fact that civilization itself is an artificial construct, we basically arrive at "I wouldn't like to be murdered so I have to accept that murder is wrong." The big ones are basic 101 stuff. The challenging ones are cultural, some places see nothing wrong with selling children, having sex with children and not so long ago the entire planet practiced slavery and it was just the way it was.
But like I said, I pretty much know how you feel, you probably know how I feel and I don't think we are gonna change each others minds.
Men with strongly held positions on abortion remind me of liberals and gun control. If the woman isn’t carrying your fetus it seems to me your position is more about controlling someone else’s behavior than anything else.
Another completely fallacious assertion. Sounds like a statement from a grossly inconsistent leftist, but one that happens to think guns are spiffy. The issue is and always has been since Roe...preserving and protecting innocent human life. When it comes to controlling someone's behavior, I'm EXTREMELY more interested in controlling my own behavior.
So starting with the fact that civilization itself is an artificial construct, we basically arrive at "I wouldn't like to be murdered so I have to accept that murder is wrong." The big ones are basic 101 stuff. The challenging ones are cultural, some places see nothing wrong with selling children, having sex with children and not so long ago the entire planet practiced slavery and it was just the way it was.
But like I said, I pretty much know how you feel, you probably know how I feel and I don't think we are gonna change each others minds.
Like atheists from generations ago would say they didn't know if murder was wrong, they just didn't prefer it. They understood that an absolute moral judgement required an absolute moral standard and they also knew that atheism could not and would not provide that standard. Agnostics are in the same position since it's really just a form of skepticism or practical atheism.
And artificial civilization, if you could actually call what has gone on in history, up the present, civil, has led to slaughter on a massive scale. Sounds like each of us could use a change in nature.
And who was driving that train to abolish something like slavery, the agnostics and atheists of the world? And yes, I know there have been "Christians" who fought against "Christians" to preserve the status quo...to their great shame.
Another completely fallacious assertion. Sounds like a statement from a grossly inconsistent leftist, but one that happens to think guns are spiffy. The issue is and always has been since Roe...preserving and protecting innocent human life. When it comes to controlling someone's behavior, I'm EXTREMELY more interested in controlling my own behavior.
Ha! I’m inconsistent? I don’t want the government interfering with ANYONE’S life. Sounds like you want the government to enforce your own morality. Sorry, but you don’t get to pick and choose the parts of the bill of rights that you like.
Like atheists from generations ago would say they didn't know if murder was wrong, they just didn't prefer it. They understood that an absolute moral judgement required an absolute moral standard and they also knew that atheism could not and would not provide that standard. Agnostics are in the same position since it's really just a form of skepticism or practical atheism.
And artificial civilization, if you could actually call what has gone on in history, up the present, civil, has led to slaughter on a massive scale. Sounds like each of us could use a change in nature.
And who was driving that train to abolish something like slavery, the agnostics and atheists of the world? And yes, I know there have been "Christians" who fought against "Christians" to preserve the status quo...to their great shame.
Small correction.
Atheists assume they know something.
Agnostics accept they don't know. I await any real evidence.
If there is a god and it's important to that deity that I'm aware of it's existence, that deity should know how to demonstrate it's existence in some meaningful way. I'm no more adverse to the idea of a "creator" than I am to "black holes" in the universe. We finally got evidence for the later in 1971.
And I am skeptical of most things, if I was the product of a creator, then I am skeptical by design.
I couldn't care less what grown women do with their own bodies. It's what they're doing to the unborn baby they're carrying that I take issue with.
I realize this is an unpopular take and won't win me any friends, but I'm not here to make friends I'm here to talk about guns.
How many of these unborn children are you going to directly support? Because if the answer is zero, then your opinion on it isn’t relevant.
Adrenaline_6
09-08-21, 21:24
Ha! I’m inconsistent? I don’t want the government interfering with ANYONE’S life. Sounds like you want the government to enforce your own morality. Sorry, but you don’t get to pick and choose the parts of the bill of rights that you like.
How do you not get the simple fact that a life, no matter how young, small or dependent on someone else it is...is still a life with its own set of rights. You can do what you want and most here will back that up 100%...until you infringe on someone else's rights.
People choose not to drive drunk not only because it is illegal, but because of the moral aspect that there is a possible serious consequence that can affect themselves and others. Sex can have similar consequences. Bottom line...don't play if your not willing to pay.
Talk about leftist reasoning...no one thinks they should be responsible for anything they do and it's someone else's/things fault if things go wrong. BS...own it.
How do you not get the simple fact that a life, no matter how young, small or dependent on someone else it is...is still a life with its own set of rights. You can do what you want and most here will back that up 100%...until you infringe on someone else's rights.
People choose not to drive drunk not only because it is illegal, but because of the moral aspect that there is a possible serious consequence that can affect themselves and others. Sex can have similar consequences. Bottom line...don't play if your not willing to pay.
Talk about leftist reasoning...no one thinks they should be responsible for anything they do and it's someone else's/things fault if things go wrong. BS...own it.
Okay boomer.
Skipping over arguments on the barbarity of the actual act of dilation and extraction, the relevant question to me is the Texas law.
To me it illustrates a few things:
1. Lots of prolife folks are more interested in banning abortion than reducing abortion, and I think that's a shame. Polling is consistent year over year; most Americans (like 85% or so) are in a group that classifies abortion as something along the old adage, "safe, legal, and rare." If pro life people put as much energy into crisis pregnancy centers and birth control usage as they do abortion laws, they'd probably get more of what they say they really want.
2. The pro-abortion types seemingly cannot help but wildly overreact to any attempt to reduce abortion. They respond with wild and over the top rhetoric and legislation that goes hard the other direction. One wonders if they will try to legislate legal abortion into the 530th trimester.
3. Roe is the real problem with abortion law. The idiotic patchwork of disingenuous legal complexities around abortion is a never ending cycle of responding to Roe's ridiculous and obvious non-Constitutional, but-somehow-also-Constitutional "right to privacy." If Roe, or Casey v. PP, were to finally be overturned, the legal fight over abortion would probably look a little more reasonable.
4. I think 2A advocates should be extremely wary of this kind of civil penalty 'bounty' system. While the RKBA has much stronger Constitutional grounding than anything like "healthcare," you can bet that if any type of jurisprudence allows this law to stand, left wing culture nannies will be lining up to punish the gunowners they despise.
"May you live in interesting times." My .02
Ha! I’m inconsistent? I don’t want the government interfering with ANYONE’S life. Sounds like you want the government to enforce your own morality. Sorry, but you don’t get to pick and choose the parts of the bill of rights that you like.
So how many murderers do you want jailed? How many government laws do you uphold as necessary, ultimately interfering in others lives at one level or another...is it zero? The idea that somehow you're above wanting a certain morality enforced just tells me how self unaware you are. Abortion is murder and nobody has that right.
Okay boomer.
Is this an argument, or just an ignorant young rube shooting his mouth off?
How many of these unborn children are you going to directly support? Because if the answer is zero, then your opinion on it isn’t relevant.
Definitely a leftist here. A canned commie argument. It's an irrelevant argument to boot. Even if I'm slack in my good work of saving and caring for the unloved, the truth is, and it's not some truth that comes from my own sinful thinking is that abortion is always wrong. My sinfulness doesn't negate what is true.
Skipping over arguments on the barbarity of the actual act of dilation and extraction, the relevant question to me is the Texas law.
To me it illustrates a few things:
1. Lots of prolife folks are more interested in banning abortion than reducing abortion, and I think that's a shame. Polling is consistent year over year; most Americans (like 85% or so) are in a group that classifies abortion as something along the old adage, "safe, legal, and rare." If pro life people put as much energy into crisis pregnancy centers and birth control usage as they do abortion laws, they'd probably get more of what they say they really want.
2. The pro-abortion types seemingly cannot help but wildly overreact to any attempt to reduce abortion. They respond with wild and over the top rhetoric and legislation that goes hard the other direction. One wonders if they will try to legislate legal abortion into the 530th trimester.
3. Roe is the real problem with abortion law. The idiotic patchwork of disingenuous legal complexities around abortion is a never ending cycle of responding to Roe's ridiculous and obvious non-Constitutional, but-somehow-also-Constitutional "right to privacy." If Roe, or Casey v. PP, were to finally be overturned, the legal fight over abortion would probably look a little more reasonable.
4. I think 2A advocates should be extremely wary of this kind of civil penalty 'bounty' system. While the RKBA has much stronger Constitutional grounding than anything like "healthcare," you can bet that if any type of jurisprudence allows this law to stand, left wing culture nannies will be lining up to punish the gunowners they despise.
"May you live in interesting times." My .02
I'm only going to answer #1...are Christians supposed to be happy with just a little baby murder?
Small correction.
Atheists assume they know something.
Agnostics accept they don't know. I await any real evidence.
If there is a god and it's important to that deity that I'm aware of it's existence, that deity should know how to demonstrate it's existence in some meaningful way. I'm no more adverse to the idea of a "creator" than I am to "black holes" in the universe. We finally got evidence for the later in 1971.
And I am skeptical of most things, if I was the product of a creator, then I am skeptical by design.
Another correction. Agnostics say they don't know, but they live their lives as if there is no God, thus practical atheism.
Adrenaline_6
09-08-21, 22:39
Okay boomer.
Code for "I couldn't think of a valid counter point".
I missed being a boomer by a few years btw.
Is this an argument, or just an ignorant young rube shooting his mouth off?
Why bother arguing with religious zealots?
If you can’t see it’s not the government’s position to legislate the perceived rules of your particular fantasy we won’t reach common ground.
Code for "I couldn't think of a valid counter point".
I missed being a boomer by a few years btw.
There’s plenty of valid counter points. I can just tell from your tone you won’t hear them.
sandsunsurf
09-08-21, 23:07
Although adrenaline makes a valid point about zero proof of other life, there are at least very high odds based upon the billions of planets that have the similar elements needed for life. There’s zero chance that a supreme being looking like us is floating above us and looking at us. The unknown origin of the Big Bang could be something quite unbelievable, but it won’t be an old man humanoid worried about us earthlings.
sandsunsurf
09-08-21, 23:14
Why bother arguing with religious zealots?
If you can’t see it’s not the government’s position to legislate the perceived rules of your particular fantasy we won’t reach common ground.
Truth.
Why bother arguing with religious zealots?
If you can’t see it’s not the government’s position to legislate the perceived rules of your particular fantasy we won’t reach common ground.
Common ground, we have zero common ground. What? You think atheists came up with don't murder, don't steal????? I forgot, did atheists come up with your rights or was that some of them there religious zealots you speak of? Oh, my aching head! I could argue from science if necessary. When the egg and sperm come together we now have a new human, with different DNA from the mother or father, it's not a tumor, it's a human, and since we're supposedly a little more intelligent than animals, we should protect our species, unless, we're just suicidal as a species. The new human just needs a safe and cozy place to grow. You, ya know YOU as a person, were at one time that tiny little new human. But since you think that I believe a fantasy, you no doubt believed we evolved. Evolution selected for the mass of humanity throughout history to believe in religion, does that upset you?
Although adrenaline makes a valid point about zero proof of other life, there are at least very high odds based upon the billions of planets that have the similar elements needed for life. There’s zero chance that a supreme being looking like us is floating above us and looking at us. The unknown origin of the Big Bang could be something quite unbelievable, but it won’t be an old man humanoid worried about us earthlings.
I used to be agnostic, and i probably still am in that there could be something unexplained. But Judaism, Christianity (and similar) and Islam are all just continuing to believe in a god (actually almost the same one, but with different prophets) that was made up to answer unknown questions and give uneducated people a reason to follow “moral codes.”
As a smart friend of mine said: “Religion is the opiate of the masses. It’s to keep poor stupid people from doing bad things. It’s control by the smart and rich over the losers”
Are you omniscience? omnipresence? Know everything about literally everything. Maybe God has revealed Himself to man, and you're just blind and ignorant to it. Yep, those ancient Jews were quite stupid, they were so stupid that they discovered a moral code that has lasted to this day. Modern atheist have got to be the more self-righteous people who have ever lived.
Your friend is stupid and evil, and probably a Marxist. When it comes to Tom, I never felt so free as when I came to Christ. Free to learn how to love my neighbor, how to actually love my wife and children, how to stop being an object of interest to the local copper, how to really start thinking about others and their concerns. Yep, sounds like slavery and stupidity to me.
sandsunsurf
09-08-21, 23:39
I removed my inflammatory statements. I’m happy that religion works for you.
It’s my belief that religions add some social value to society, but that value is also less now than 150 years ago when the gov took over the value with welfare and laws. I also believe that most wars in the common era are based upon “I’m right about my god and you’re wrong, so now I kill you.” That reduces the value in my opinion, also.
Common ground, we have zero common ground. What? You think atheists came up with don't murder, don't steal????? I forgot, did atheists come up with your rights or was that some of them there religious zealots you speak of? Oh, my aching head! I could argue from science if necessary. When the egg and sperm come together we now have a new human, with different DNA from the mother or father, it's not a tumor, it's a human, and since we're supposedly a little more intelligent than animals, we should protect our species, unless, we're just suicidal as a species. The new human just needs a safe and cozy place to grow. You, ya know YOU as a person, were at one time that tiny little new human. But since you think that I believe a fantasy, you no doubt believed we evolved. Evolution selected for the mass of humanity throughout history to believe in religion, does that upset you?
Laws against murder pre-date your religion, so you can’t claim that.
Global population is increasing, so I don’t think extinction is something you need to be concerned over.
You’re not pro-life, you’re anti-autonomy over ones own body.
Why would it bother me that some people believe in religion? I don’t find children’s belief in Santa offensive either. I just don’t think either should be used to shape policy.
Does it bother you that religious affiliation is declining at such a rapid clip that soon it will be a minority?
I removed my inflammatory statements. I’m happy that religion works for you.
It’s my belief that religions add some social value to society, but that value is also less now than 150 years ago when the gov took over the value with welfare and laws. I also believe that most wars in the common era are based upon “I’m right about my god and you’re wrong, so now I kill you.” That reduces the value in my opinion, also.
Some people have most definitely misused religion for nefarious reasons, but then, Jesus and His apostles never started a war. The faith is about Him not men who misuse religion. Probably all told, 5, maybe 10 million people have died because of direct religious wars in the past 2000 years. And there are 2 religious institutions that are primarily responsible for those wars and deaths. I would ask you, were more people slaughtered in the 20th or 21st centuries than all the previous centuries put together? Were they religious? Was WW1, WW2, Vietnam, the many wars in Africa, The wars between Israel and the Arabs religious? And I don't discount the Iran/Iraq war (religious maybe on Iran's side, not Iraq's side), or the wars in the former Yugoslavia.
Set religion aside and abortion is still what it is- eliminating a life. An innocent one.
Some people may be okay with it. Quite frankly it’s abhorrent.
I’m not going to kill anyone who isn’t trying to cause me great bodily harm in defense of my self or defense of others.
To judge life at any stage as not worthy of “life, liberty and justice” is just wrong.
You can try and justify what is or isn’t a life with this clump of cells bullshit, but I will always error on the side of Liberty and NOT murdering an innocent.
We all started out the same way, taking away that opportunity for life cannot be Right or Just.
No one is changing anyone’s mind on the matter, so around and around we go in circles debating it…
Laws against murder pre-date your religion, so you can’t claim that.
Global population is increasing, so I don’t think extinction is something you need to be concerned over.
You’re not pro-life, you’re anti-autonomy over ones own body.
Why would it bother me that some people believe in religion? I don’t find children’s belief in Santa offensive either. I just don’t think either should be used to shape policy.
Does it bother you that religious affiliation is declining at such a rapid clip that soon it will be a minority?
Please enlighten me when my religion started, I claim it began with "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth". When do you claim it began? So ancient atheists came up with "thou shall not murder"? Is that your view?
A long standing question in the world is "will we annihilate ourselves", whether through war, climate change, spreading disease, I just added murdering our children. And, no, I'm not concerned about any of those ultimately destroying us all. But when a country murders it's children that country is suicidal.
There's a lot more than "some" religious people in the world and it's history. Equating belief in Santa with belief in Christ and His commandments is a pretty gross false equivalency. Belief in Santa didn't and doesn't shape the political/economic foundations of whole continents like a robust Christianity has. It's a cheesy Dawkins argument.
The idea that religious affiliation is declining doesn't bother me in the least, I've been praying that God would cleanse His church. If every Muslim renounced their faith tomorrow I would be thrilled. Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church, and I believe Him....or should I believe you....Jesus or you....who to believe? There has been ebbs and flows in the history of the true faith for thousands of years. Periods of great apostasy and periods of great reformation...God's got it completely under control, and I sleep fine.
And now for your last fallacious argument. I don't have any power, I haven't force anyone to do anything, I haven't voted for an elected official in over 25 yrs (and there are reasons for that). I have not helped put one person in office in that time, so on a practical level is it you or me involved with the use of government force? Secondly, you can try and assert that I'm only interested in controlling women, but then you're going to need a bit more than a bare assertion to establish that.
Set religion aside and abortion is still what it is- eliminating a life. An innocent one.
Some people may be okay with it. Quite frankly it’s abhorrent.
I’m not going to kill anyone who isn’t trying to cause me great bodily harm in defense of my self or defense of others.
To judge life at any stage as not worthy of “life, liberty and justice” is just wrong.
You can try and justify what is or isn’t a life with this clump of cells bullshit, but I will always error on the side of Liberty and NOT murdering an innocent.
We all started out the same way, taking away that opportunity for life cannot be Right or Just.
No one is changing anyone’s mind on the matter, so around and around we go in circles debating it…
You are blessed, you still have a functioning conscience.
Another correction. Agnostics say they don't know, but they live their lives as if there is no God, thus practical atheism.
I also live my life as if there is no Amaterasu. But I could be wrong.
I also live my life as if there is no Amaterasu. But I could be wrong.
How about we just use AA's higher power concept. But then again, Amaterasu doesn't seem to have much pull with anyone these days, unlike the Christian God.
Adrenaline_6
09-09-21, 08:43
Although adrenaline makes a valid point about zero proof of other life, there are at least very high odds based upon the billions of planets that have the similar elements needed for life. There’s zero chance that a supreme being looking like us is floating above us and looking at us. The unknown origin of the Big Bang could be something quite unbelievable, but it won’t be an old man humanoid worried about us earthlings.
Those "high odds" you speak of due to billions of planets and similar elements amount to exactly 0% if abiogenesis isn't possible. So far, science hasn't even come close to explaining how it could happen or explaining all the complexities and road blocks it would have to overcome in order for it to happen.
Adrenaline_6
09-09-21, 08:46
Laws against murder pre-date your religion, so you can’t claim that.
Global population is increasing, so I don’t think extinction is something you need to be concerned over.
You’re not pro-life, you’re anti-autonomy over ones own body.
Why would it bother me that some people believe in religion? I don’t find children’s belief in Santa offensive either. I just don’t think either should be used to shape policy.
Does it bother you that religious affiliation is declining at such a rapid clip that soon it will be a minority?
Seriously? Government laws pre date the origin of man? Interesting concept.
Please enlighten me when my religion started, I claim it began with "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth". When do you claim it began? So ancient atheists came up with "thou shall not murder"? Is that your view?
.
Okay, it started with in the beginning when god created everything? Prove it. Not using the Bible or faith. I’ll wait.
There are more than just atheists and christians. First evidence of laws against murder I’m aware of come from polytheists during Mesopotamia.
Seriously? Government laws pre date the origin of man? Interesting concept.
It’s more interesting that’s what you take from my post.
Adrenaline_6
09-09-21, 09:09
It’s more interesting that’s what you take from my post.
It's interesting that you think "organized religion" is when it all started.
It's also interesting that you demand proof from TomMcC without faith, yet you can't provide proof yourself of your theory of existence...which in itself is also faith.
It's interesting that you think "organized religion" is when it all started.
It's also interesting that you demand proof from TomMcC without faith, yet you can't provide proof yourself of your theory of existence...which in itself is also faith.
If you’re so comfortable putting words in my mouth, explain to me what my theory of existence is then.
Adrenaline_6
09-09-21, 09:15
If you’re so comfortable putting words in my mouth, explain to me what my theory of existence is then.
It doesn't matter what it is now does it? Whatever it may be, you can't prove it...period. So it is a belief without proof, therefore faith. Even not believing in something that hasn't been disproved is also faith. Get it?
It doesn't matter what it is now does it? Whatever it may be, you can't prove it...period. So it is a belief without proof, therefore faith. Even not believing in something that hasn't been disproved is also faith. Get it?
You’re assuming I have a belief at all. How do you know it’s not just, “I don’t know”?
There’s plenty of religions in the world we both don’t follow because there’s no evidence or compelling reason for us to. My list just happens to include Christianity. Get it?
Adrenaline_6
09-09-21, 09:24
You’re assuming I have a belief at all. How do you know it’s not just, “I don’t know”?
There’s plenty of religions in the world we both don’t follow because there’s no evidence or compelling reason for us to. My list just happens to include Christianity. Get it?
If it was I don't know, then Christianity would be a possibility. Saying I don't know, but I do know it isn't a Christian God, is your faith. You follow it blindly because in reality, you really have no clue. That is faith.
Five_Point_Five_Six
09-09-21, 09:38
How many of these unborn children are you going to directly support? Because if the answer is zero, then your opinion on it isn’t relevant.
I don't care if you find my opinion relevant or not.
Definitely a leftist here. A canned commie argument. It's an irrelevant argument to boot. Even if I'm slack in my good work of saving and caring for the unloved, the truth is, and it's not some truth that comes from my own sinful thinking is that abortion is always wrong. My sinfulness doesn't negate what is true.
Truth.
Okay, it started with in the beginning when god created everything? Prove it. Not using the Bible or faith. I’ll wait.
There are more than just atheists and christians. First evidence of laws against murder I’m aware of come from polytheists during Mesopotamia.
Prove you existed 20 years ago. We consider the bible to be a among other things a book of correct history. Also, every time archaeologists go digging around in the middle east they they discover that the places the Bible describes actually exist, so yeah, I trust it.
If it was I don't know, then Christianity would be a possibility. Saying I don't know, but I do know it isn't a Christian God, is your faith. You follow it blindly because in reality, you really have no clue. That is faith.
That’s not how burden of proof works at all.
Prove you existed 20 years ago. We consider the bible to be a among other things a book of correct history. Also, every time archaeologists go digging around in the middle east they they discover that the places the Bible describes actually exist, so yeah, I trust it.
I have a birth certificate, passport, and drivers license that prove it. That good enough for you?
You consider the Bible to be true. Not we.
That’s not how burden of proof works at all.
I have a birth certificate, passport, and drivers license that prove it. That good enough for you?
You consider the Bible to be true. Not we.
Sorry those sources are suspect, just like the Bible is suspect in your feverish mind.
The person and miracles, including the resurrection of Christ, were attested to by eye witnesses and then they wrote those accounts down, in a matter of fact way. Even non-believing ancient historians attested to His existence. Even many secular scholars of today believe through evidence that He existed. He claimed to be God, He testified to the truthfulness of Moses and the prophets....He was there. I believe Him...or again....should I believe you? MMMMMMM....He offers me life everlasting, and you offer me a grave. Not a hard decision.
Sorry those sources are suspect, just like the Bible is suspect in your feverish mind.
Got no fever here. Got plenty of eye witnesses too, as well as pictures at historical events, videos, and diplomas to prove it.
If only you were this critical of space daddy.
Look, I’m consistently pro freedom. I think you should have the freedom to practice your silly beliefs right up until the point they start impacting other peoples lives. That’s were I differ with the anti body autonomy crowd. I’m pro freedom, you all want to legislate your beliefs on others.
Don’t support abortion? Cool don’t get one. Kind of like liberals not owning guns.
I find it fascinating the tone the so called followers of Christ take here. But with that, I’m out. We’re not going to change each others minds so you all have a blessed day.
Got no fever here. Got plenty of eye witnesses too, as well as pictures at historical events, videos, and diplomas to prove it.
If only you were this critical of space daddy.
Look, I’m consistently pro freedom. I think you should have the freedom to practice your silly beliefs right up until the point they start impacting other peoples lives. That’s were I differ with the anti body autonomy crowd. I’m pro freedom, you all want to legislate your beliefs on others.
Don’t support abortion? Cool don’t get one. Kind of like liberals not owning guns.
I find it fascinating the tone the so called followers of Christ take here. But with that, I’m out. We’re not going to change each others minds so you all have a blessed day.
Your eyewitnesses are suspect. See how that works, you don't believe the eye witnesses of scripture, who by the way, laid down their lives for what they saw, touched, and wrote, but you expect me to believe your eye witnesses. Knowing how sinful men are and how suspect the government is, they could be lying.
And I find having to live by your irrational atheism to be quite the burden, especially when it leads to baby murder.
By the way, we don't even define "freedom" the same, that's why we have ZERO common ground.
If you think I'm harsh, you should see how Christ dealt with stiff necked unrepentant self righteous sinners. I'm a piker by comparison.
Your eyewitnesses are suspect. See how that works, you don't believe the eye witnesses of scripture, who by the way, laid down their lives for what they saw, touched, and wrote, but you expect me to believe your eye witnesses. Knowing how sinful men are and how suspect the government is, they could be lying.
And I find having to live by your irrational atheism to be quite the burden, especially when it leads to baby murder.
By the way, we don't even define "freedom" the same, that's why we have ZERO common ground.
If you think I'm harsh, you should see how Christ dealt with stiff necked unrepentant self righteous sinners. I'm a piker by comparison.
Ugh. I know I said I was done. I should really drop this.
The difference is you can meet my eye witnesses. You don’t actually know who wrote the Bible or when. Yeah, I’m sure my eye witnesses are suspect. The difference is they are outside sources. You citing the Bible as proof of your religion is circular logic that you just can’t get around.
We absolutely do not define freedom the same. Look at that, common ground.
What part of “my atheism” are you forced to live by? Show me the “babies” I’m forcing YOU to “murder”. You really want to put a stop to abortion? Free, available birth control and social services friend.
I don’t think your harsh. I don’t think much of you at all to be honest.
I’m really done now. If you want the last word have at it. There’s no arguing with faith and emotion and that’s all you have.
Ugh. I know I said I was done. I should really drop this.
The difference is you can meet my eye witnesses. You don’t actually know who wrote the Bible or when. Yeah, I’m sure my eye witnesses are suspect. The difference is they are outside sources. You citing the Bible as proof of your religion is circular logic that you just can’t get around.
We absolutely do not define freedom the same. Look at that, common ground.
What part of “my atheism” are you forced to live by? Show me the “babies” I’m forcing YOU to “murder”. You really want to put a stop to abortion? Free, available birth control and social services friend.
I don’t think your harsh. I don’t think much of you at all to be honest.
I’m really done now. If you want the last word have at it. There’s no arguing with faith and emotion and that’s all you have.
You should actually stop.
You and they say that they are eyewitnesses, but from our brief exchange, I can say without a doubt that I wouldn't trust a promoter of baby murder or a rabid anti-Christian to be telling the truth about anything. You really expect me to believe you after all this?
You're busy electing people who have perpetuated what we have now. You have been involved, indirectly, with the passage of laws that force me to live in ways I hate. And why should I have to live in a land that condones baby murder without crying out in protest. If my neighbor is about to shoot his 1 day old baby boy, must I stand there and not do something? How about the day before, is that now not a baby? Or the day before that, so on. Well, I think I should do something. And we're not friends, you're a hard core enemy to me. Your solutions are more of what doesn't work, Birth control is a sin to me, and people use abortion as a birth control, interfering with something God has said was His domain, and social services is more of your dreaded gov't interference in people's lives....I'm from the gov't, I'm here to help. So you advocate the very thing you condemned earlier. I choose the other way, to try and convince people that a murdered baby is a horrible choice to make.
And as you "really" show me your utter distain for me, I'll remember you in my prayers, that God would someday come to you and save you like He save me. I'm called to love even my enemies, as difficult as that is.
The whole argument about the bounty system being used against gun owners etc...is dumb as Hell quite frankly.
ANYTIME historically someone is doing something a tyrannical government doesn't agree with there are paid snitches. Since...Forever?
Since we've talked about the Bible so much, what the Hell was Judas--Thirty Pieces of Silver, Ring any Bells?
Like any of this is new. You gotta be dumber than a box of rocks to think this is somehow a Revelation to those in power--- "Gee, you mean we could PAY people to rat others out?".....Really?
sandsunsurf
09-09-21, 15:48
The whole argument about the bounty system being used against gun owners etc...is dumb as Hell quite frankly.
A lot of educated people think this is the future way the liberals will legislate gun control. They may be better at articulating it than I am, but I believe it’s true. I’ve even seen claims that gun control advocates already have said this is the next way they should try. We should be concerned.
Maybe I missed it somewhere. If the possession and use of certain guns, ammo, and magazines is "legal", and abortion after the 6th week is "illegal", how can it be a suable offense as relates to guns? Guns=legal, abortion=illegal.
By the way, allowing people to sue those involved in 6th week abortions sounds a bit like vigilantism, which probably isn't a good idea in the long run. The Texas gov't sounds like they are shirking their responsibility a bit and opening the already sue happy society up to even more sue-mania.
Maybe I missed it somewhere. If the possession and use of certain guns, ammo, and magazines is "legal", and abortion after the 6th week is "illegal", how can it be a suable offense as relates to guns? Guns=legal, abortion=illegal.
By the way, allowing people to sue those involved in 6th week abortions sounds a bit like vigilantism, which probably isn't a good idea in the long run. The Texas gov't sounds like they are shirking their responsibility a bit and opening the already sue happy society up to even more sue-mania.
I think the idea is, that once they manage to make guns/ammo/mags illegal, they can then use the "bounty system" to let others weed out the non-compliant for them.
Part of me wonders if the folks in TX aren't setting this up to ultimately get knocked down and sort of head the left off at the pass on applying this technique. Just a random thought.
I think the idea is, that once they manage to make guns/ammo/mags illegal, they can then use the "bounty system" to let others weed out the non-compliant for them.
Part of me wonders if the folks in TX aren't setting this up to ultimately get knocked down and sort of head the left off at the pass on applying this technique. Just a random thought.
Got you. Make guns and whatnot illegal, and then let the leftist hoards go after the hard cases.
Well, I hope Texas is playing chess here and not checkers, because if this goes sideways things are going to get even weirder.
sandsunsurf
09-09-21, 16:25
You’re both kind of right- basically if the TX law successfully circumvents the Supreme Court by taking the gov out of the equation on “enforcement”, then gun laws that have been held unconstitutional may be able to be enacted again, but taking the gov out of the enforcement.
Diamondback
09-09-21, 20:42
Got you. Make guns and whatnot illegal, and then let the leftist hoards go after the hard cases.
Well, I hope Texas is playing chess here and not checkers, because if this goes sideways things are going to get even weirder.
Kadelic's theory is what I'm hearing from the TX policy-wonks and legal-beagles at my usual politics site. Things are gonna get even weirder no matter what, 'cause we're firmly into Venkman's Warning territory: "human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria..."
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-09-21, 21:53
In the end the Bounty/civil system gained then 24 hours. The cases that were filed first were shot down on standing, and the next day when someone actually filed a civil suit to stop an abortion, the courts put a stay on the law. Woooow-hooooo. Huge gain there, a day or two.
I do commend these state officials for trying to stem the slaughter, but as long as blood thirsty leftist judges have Roe in their hip pocket there's not much that can be done at that level. Unless of course they just ignore the commie judges and let the chips fall where they may, that would take some serious courage.
sandsunsurf
09-09-21, 23:53
I do commend these state officials for trying to stem the slaughter, but as long as blood thirsty leftist judges have Roe in their hip pocket there's not much that can be done at that level. Unless of course they just ignore the commie judges and let the chips fall where they may, that would take some serious courage.
Ugh. It’s not “leftist judges” it’s constitutionalist judges. You’re the Talib of the right. You can do you, but please, as others have said, stop pushing your religious right beliefs down the throats of us constitutional Americans.
Ugh. It’s not “leftist judges” it’s constitutionalist judges. You’re the Talib of the right. You can do you, but please, as others have said, stop pushing your religious right beliefs down the throats of us constitutional Americans.
Umm, I’m pretty sure the ideals codified in the constitution heavily lean towards and favor a right to life over a right to terminate an inconvenient life.
You know all the merits of liberty and justice and all that stuff kinda cast a negative light on murder.
You can call it “bodily autonomy” it doesn’t change the snuffing out of a life.
Just like you can call an illegal alien an “undocumented worker” and that doesn’t change the criminal and illegal nature of their presence in a country they are not a citizen or legally residing in.
It’s incredible that a right to abortion can be found in the Constitution (it’s not by the way- a right to privacy extending to taking away a life is ludicrous) yet the right to bear arms is debated every day…
sandsunsurf
09-10-21, 00:33
You know all the merits of liberty and justice and all that stuff kinda cast a negative light on murder.
You can keep trying to call abortion murder, but it’s the same semantics liberals use calling any semi-auto rifle an assault weapon. Stop with the bullshit and look at the science.
And while you’re at it, cough up some dough to pay for all the unwanted offspring.
How ****ing ridiculous is it that two of us straight up called out Tom and the rest of the Right Squad that you oppose birth control, oppose abortion of any sort, AND won’t give a dime to some woman who gets pregnant. If your dumb-ass religion thinks birth control is a sin (WTF???) then you can pay for the kids. You don’t get it both ways.
Ugh. It’s not “leftist judges” it’s constitutionalist judges. You’re the Talib of the right. You can do you, but please, as others have said, stop pushing your religious right beliefs down the throats of us constitutional Americans.
Oh my, getting all inflammatory there atheist. Calling me a Taliban and all. I've made it pretty clear through the years that I would not personally, nor would I encourage any Christian to resort to violence to enforce my views, I'll just try and persuade. But maybe you can go drink a beer or something while you ponder how your life will ebb away, death will come for you, and nobody will care who you are or what you said in a generation or two, And long after both you and I are dead, Christ will be building His church with new converts.
Do you think that abortion was on the minds of the founders of the country, when they were writing the constitution? Well probably not, it probably wouldn't have occurred to them that such a thing could be derived from their document. Most of them were either some form of Christian, or had to one degree or another been influenced by Christianity even if they weren't actually Christians. But I think that most of them with a one or two exception were at least believers in a god. They actually, get this, thought that our rights came from this God, pretty amazing don't you think? So the idea that the founders would have thought abortion a right is absolutely preposterous. Activist and developing leftist judges came up with that monstrosity.
Oh and by the way I didn't mention God or religion in my post you quoted.
You can keep trying to call abortion murder, but it’s the same semantics liberals use calling any semi-auto rifle an assault weapon. Stop with the bullshit and look at the science.
And while you’re at it, cough up some dough to pay for all the unwanted offspring.
How ****ing ridiculous is it that two of us straight up called out Tom and the rest of the Right Squad that you oppose birth control, oppose abortion of any sort, AND won’t give a dime to some woman who gets pregnant. If your dumb-ass religion thinks birth control is a sin (WTF???) then you can pay for the kids. You don’t get it both ways.
Did you actually appeal to science? I know, science says it's a tumor or something, something, something.
There are literally hundreds of Christian charities that want and try to help women who want to murder their babies. There are 10's of thousands of Christian couples who try and adopt babies not wanted every year. I dare say there is no small number of secular couples that want to adopt every year.
Really dude, you are one vicious guy.
You can keep trying to call abortion murder, but it’s the same semantics liberals use calling any semi-auto rifle an assault weapon. Stop with the bullshit and look at the science.
And while you’re at it, cough up some dough to pay for all the unwanted offspring.
How ****ing ridiculous is it that two of us straight up called out Tom and the rest of the Right Squad that you oppose birth control, oppose abortion of any sort, AND won’t give a dime to some woman who gets pregnant. If your dumb-ass religion thinks birth control is a sin (WTF???) then you can pay for the kids. You don’t get it both ways.
You’re throwing around a lot of assumptions, sir.
I don’t oppose birth control. I don’t adhere to nor belong to an organized religion/church.
Lots of ways to not get pregnant that are reasonable and don’t end with scraping an aborted fetus out of a woman.
Education and responsibility/accountability are key.
You wanna pay for my food? How about my mortgage?
Not your responsibility, right? It’s mine.
Oh and, uh, by the way- if you believe these people aren’t already getting tons of taxpayer dollars thrown their way, and wouldn’t get more after having the child- your just naive or lying to yourself.
You wanna talk science? Everyone is just a bunch of vibrating molecules loosely bonded together with infinite space between them and not even solid matter- so **** it why not just kill anyone for any reason at any time?
Why would depriving your form of life be any different than another, even if you don’t consider what you’re destroying a life, YET- it will be a life if you don’t poke it and scrape it out of existence.
That’s taking the opportunity of life away.
If you wanna talk science let’s look at numbers- there were more abortions in New York State than live births in a several of the last couple of years.
That’s just insane and wrong.
That’s not bodily autonomy, that’s poor decision making and ignorance.
Here are photos of weeks old babies so you can see the carnage Roe has caused. Be prepared, it's gruesome. And they aren't tumors or other such nonsense.
https://www.abortionno.org/abortion-photos/
sandsunsurf
09-10-21, 10:34
Apologies for the lashing out. I know better than to make things personal. I’m frustrated with a vaccine mandate and frustrated with antivaxxers spreading FUD creating a situation where a mandate is almost warranted. I spent the day debating with coworkers, then came home and I took that out on you, Tom et al, in this thread because I also have strong feelings about religion and individual rights.
I promise, as I said early on, that a conversation about this in person over beers or coffee would be friendly.
I’m good to call it a day in regards to this discussion. I enjoy the debate and I do see some good points.
Grendelshooter
09-14-21, 22:40
66450
Ugh. It’s not “leftist judges” it’s constitutionalist judges. You’re the Talib of the right. You can do you, but please, as others have said, stop pushing your religious right beliefs down the throats of us constitutional Americans.
Lots of ways to not get pregnant that are reasonable and don’t end with scraping an aborted fetus out of a woman.
Education and responsibility/accountability are key.
The problem of course is that most people who get abortions are neither accountable, responsible or even terribly educated. If they were any of those things accidental pregnancies would be incredibly rare.
I wish "planned parenthood" was actually what it claims to be and devoted most of it's time to preventing unwanted pregnancies. I mean it does that to an extent but obviously not in a way that is meaningful enough to make abortions an extremely rare thing.
I think anyone who is receiving government support in the form of welfare, EBT, etc. should be required to be on Norplant as a condition of continued support. It's neither permanent nor excessively invasive. That would solve a LOT of problems.
Other people who have demonstrated gross irresponsibility such as those in substance treatment should also be on Norplant. I don't think the added stress of having a newborn is going to help them with their addiction problems. It could be a condition of their insurance coverage and again, it's completely reversible.
Sure people will cry "eugenics" but applying for welfare is voluntary. Accessing insurance provided substance treatment is voluntary. The tricky one is the mentally ill, technically they haven't done anything wrong and are simply mentally ill. I'd be hard pressed to come up with legit reasons to deny them reproductive rights and then you have the challenge of level of mentally ill which range from mild and manageable PTSD all the way to severe cognitive impairment. But for those who can no longer manage their own lives responsibly, I don't think becoming a parent or having to get an abortion is going to improve anything in any way, shape or form.
My large concern is the ability of the US government to oversee or manage such things in a responsible, fair and impartial way. They are far more likely to create a problem of increased pregnancies among these individuals so they can expand their budget to manage the "crisis." Reproductive management would probably simply become another cash cow like Social Security, Medicare and Obamacare where the government pays itself to administer care to those who can't figure it out on their own.
And this is before you add all the related stupidity that comes with the complete package of reproductive rights, religious views, welfare funded families and some truly insane people who I think get pregnant on purpose sometimes simply so they can exercise their right to an abortion. Sounds insane I know but I think I've met a couple of them.
sandsunsurf
12-12-21, 01:47
A lot of educated people think this is the future way the liberals will legislate gun control. They may be better at articulating it than I am, but I believe it’s true. I’ve even seen claims that gun control advocates already have said this is the next way they should try. We should be concerned.
Told you so….
I hate that I was right, but this was easy to predict:
“Gavin Newsom calls for bill modeled on Texas abortion ban to crack down on gun manufacturers
California Gov. Gavin Newsom said Saturday he will push for a new law modeled on Texas’ abortion ban that would let private citizens sue anyone who makes or sells assault weapons or ghost guns.”
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article256524466.html
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-12-21, 11:25
Yep, that is why I started this thread. I also started one with a link to the CNN article that covers this,maybe could fold that into here.
Yep, that is why I started this thread. I also started one with a link to the CNN article that covers this,maybe could fold that into here.
Darn it, if only us conservatives would have left the Left alone to kill all the babies they want they would have left 2A rights alone.
BangBang77
12-12-21, 12:41
Darn it, if only us conservatives would have left the Left alone to kill all the babies they want they would have left 2A rights alone.
Preach it brother.
Diamondback
12-12-21, 13:18
IIRC, part of Texas's purpose in this law was a strategy to strike down the idea of "third-party standing."
Darn it, if only us conservatives would have left the Left alone to kill all the babies they want they would have left 2A rights alone.
Well, that argument summarizes exactly why we won’t see resolution on this argument. There’s no solution when one side believes they are arguing about reproductive rights and individual freedom, and another side believes they’re arguing about killing babies. At least with 2A issues there is a constitutional argument to be had—that doesn’t exist here.
Well, that argument summarizes exactly why we won’t see resolution on this argument. There’s no solution when one side believes they are arguing about reproductive rights and individual freedom, and another side believes they’re arguing about killing babies. At least with 2A issues there is a constitutional argument to be had—that doesn’t exist here.
“Reproductive rights” is doubletalk- there is nothing “reproductive” about terminating a child’s life.
“Reproductive rights” is doubletalk- there is nothing “reproductive” about terminating a child’s life.
What about my right to NOT get a vaccine? Queue the "Oh that's different" meme. Of several things, that hypocrisy is why I despise the Left so much.
What about my right to NOT get a vaccine? Queue the "Oh that's different" meme. Of several things, that hypocrisy is why I despise the Left so much.
Yep, “my body, my choice”. But only when it conveniently plays into my ideology.
Abortion is objectively immoral and evil, owning an, so called, AW is not. One is the unjust taking of a human life, the other is the owning and moral use of an inanimate object. Only a probable reprobate wouldn't see the difference.
Yeah, I'm not seeing a comparison here, either morally, or legally. Targeting people or organizations that perform abortions (ie, actually kill the baby) is not in the same league as targeting manufactures and people selling an object. Constitutionally, the right to bear arms is protected (but not "granted" or created) by the 2nd Amendment. There is no such Constitutional protection for Abortions, only a half-assed attempt at incorporating it into the right to privacy, itself an extension of the 4th Amendment. At the very, very least, Abortion should be a state issue, while the right to bear arms is a fundamental right guaranteed by the Federal Consitution.
And yeah, anyone saying that the TX law just served as a testbed for the Left's game plan for guns is deluding themselves. They absolutely would not leave us alone if the law hadn't passed, nor would they stop persuing that avenue if the TX law was struck down. Take gains where we can get them, and as Foch said, conduct an "offensive à outrance."
What about my right to NOT get a vaccine? Queue the "Oh that's different" meme. Of several things, that hypocrisy is why I despise the Left so much.But it is distinctly different.
Outside of rape, pregnancy is absolutely preventable. So it is their body, they did have a choice, and the choices they made caused them to become pregnant. Now there is a new body, and that new body should not be executed because the parents made a choice that they don't like
How is this the same as not wanting to be injected with an experimental gene therapy?
Soli Deo Gloria
sandsunsurf
12-17-21, 22:18
It’s surprising to hear that on a GUN forum so many people would choose to give up their constitutional right of gun ownership, aka self defense, because of a flawed theory that birth control is “against god’s will” when “god” is a figment of our collective imagination. What’s more important, us in the here and now or some fictional paradise?
We should give away birth control and misoprostol like it’s candy. We are already over-populating the earth. And the people that want to NOT have a baby are frequently not financially able to support a baby. Why force them to? Maybe the religious right wants to tithe an extra 10% to prevent the rest of us from paying for WIC and the child tax credit?
Y’all are hunters, right? What happens to Thumper or Bambi when we pull the trigger? It’s lights out. Why would someone be so arrogant to think that it’s not the same for us? I also don’t support giving people welfare or subsidized housing. Do you? There’s a bit of hypocrisy or irony here….
sandsunsurf
12-17-21, 22:39
Yep, that is why I started this thread. I also started one with a link to the CNN article that covers this,maybe could fold that into here.
Yep, good thread. I’m moving there..
It’s surprising to hear that on a GUN forum so many people would choose to give up their constitutional right of gun ownership, aka self defense, because of a flawed theory that birth control is “against god’s will” when “god” is a figment of our collective imagination. What’s more important, us in the here and now or some fictional paradise?
We should give away birth control and misoprostol like it’s candy. We are already over-populating the earth. And the people that want to NOT have a baby are frequently not financially able to support a baby. Why force them to? Maybe the religious right wants to tithe an extra 10% to prevent the rest of us from paying for WIC and the child tax credit?
Y’all are hunters, right? What happens to Thumper or Bambi when we pull the trigger? It’s lights out. Why would someone be so arrogant to think that it’s not the same for us? I also don’t support giving people welfare or subsidized housing. Do you? There’s a bit of hypocrisy or irony here….
Like I said...probable reprobate.
It’s surprising to hear that on a GUN forum so many people would choose to give up their constitutional right of gun ownership, aka self defense, because of a flawed theory that birth control is “against god’s will” when “god” is a figment of our collective imagination. What’s more important, us in the here and now or some fictional paradise?
We should give away birth control and misoprostol like it’s candy. We are already over-populating the earth. And the people that want to NOT have a baby are frequently not financially able to support a baby. Why force them to? Maybe the religious right wants to tithe an extra 10% to prevent the rest of us from paying for WIC and the child tax credit?
Y’all are hunters, right? What happens to Thumper or Bambi when we pull the trigger? It’s lights out. Why would someone be so arrogant to think that it’s not the same for us? I also don’t support giving people welfare or subsidized housing. Do you? There’s a bit of hypocrisy or irony here….
Without going into extremes, I'd say that nobody on the Right is against "birth control," at least if you use the typical definition of the term as "Birth control, also known as contraception, is designed to prevent pregnancy." Sure, some groups don't want to use it themselves, or feel that it's wrong to do so, but the right, in general, isn't against its existence. They are against classifying abortion as "birth control" or a form of contraception. Contraception, in various ways, is very cheap and readily available. No one is forcing anything, but people should be expected to live with the consequences of their actions, and not be given government sanctions to commit murder if they don't like the consequence of that action. Especially murder against the only people that are truly innocent in this world.
I also haven't heard a single person advocate giving up the right to bear arms in order to oppose abortion. It's not an either/or dichotomy. If you somehow think that the left was going to ignore guns if the right didn't challenge abortion, you've not been paying attention the last half dozen decades or so. This is the kind of crap the left does divide any that would oppose them. Sadly, it works, not so much because there is any truth to the BS dichotomy, but because people are too rabidly anti-whatever to actually think through the situation. Charges of racism, phobias, "eww, religion!" just isolate elements of the community, and let rights slip away in the process.
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