View Full Version : Alec Baldwin kills someone in movie accident
During the filming of a new western movie Alec Baldwin discharged a prop blank firing gun. For an unknown reason the gun fired some sort of projectile which hit the movie director and the director of photography. The photography director died at the hospital.
I wonder if this is going to be some sort of incident like what happened to Brandon Lee?
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/rust-crewmember-dies-after-prop-gun-misfires-on-set-of-alec-baldwin-film
titsonritz
10-21-21, 22:48
During the filming of a new western movie Alec Baldwin discharged a prop blank firing gun. For an unknown reason the gun fired some sort of projectile which hit the movie director and the director of photography. The photography director died at the hospital.
I wonder if this is going to be some sort of incident like what happened to Brandon Lee?
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/rust-crewmember-dies-after-prop-gun-misfires-on-set-of-alec-baldwin-film
Michael Massee was freaked out and never forgave himself, probably contributed to his stomach cancer.
BoringGuy45
10-21-21, 22:58
The first thing I thought was Brandon Lee, too. In Lee's death, I guess the prop department, wanting to have a close up of a loaded revolver, loaded the gun with rounds that had the powder removed, but they forgot to remove the primer. One of the rounds was fired which caused a squib. Then, in the next scene, they fired the revolver with a blank, which then discharged the stuck round with full pressure, which killed Lee.
I can only guess that something like that happened here. We'll see. It sucks all around.
John Eric Hexum died of self inflicted gun to head that was loaded with blanks. He took all of the blanks out except one and played Russian roulette.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum
I have seen a number of videos where stuntmen talk about how common this is on set. It usually doesn't usually end this tragically but apparently it is a disturbingly common occurrence.
titsonritz
10-22-21, 00:17
John Eric Hexum died of self inflicted gun to head that was loaded with blanks. He took all of the blanks out except one and played Russian roulette.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum
Voyagers!
Damn, I would have thought they had this shit buttoned up. Always wondered how awkward it would be for a real gun gun to point real guns at people and pull the trigger. It would be very awkward for me.
PB
The first thing I thought was Brandon Lee, too. In Lee's death, I guess the prop department, wanting to have a close up of a loaded revolver, loaded the gun with rounds that had the powder removed, but they forgot to remove the primer. One of the rounds was fired which caused a squib. Then, in the next scene, they fired the revolver with a blank, which then discharged the stuck round with full pressure, which killed Lee.
I can only guess that something like that happened here. We'll see. It sucks all around.
Brandon Lee was the first thing that came to my mind. In that incident the official story is the prop gun was used in a live fire event (something that should NEVER happen, you never combine prop guns with live firearms or vice versa) and a squib round occurred that was never corrected and the round remained in the barrel.
The firearm was then returned to the movie set where the blank was of sufficient power to cause the squib round to become a lethal projectile.
That official version of events asks a LOT when it comes to credibility. I suppose somebody could be that incompetent, but that sequence of events just seems unlikely. Whatever actually happened I think the Lee family decided they had had enough hardship and didn't want to sensationalize Brandon's death in the way his fathers death was tabloid fodder for years.
The squib caused by primer does sound a bit more plausible but still unacceptable. Check the damn bore every time you knobs.
The scary thing is to consider his fathers film "Game of Death" where Bruce Lee plays a martial arts actor who refuses to sign a management contract with the local crime syndicates so they send a hitman who gains access to the film set and a live round is swapped for a blank in a prop gun. Of course in the film, Lee isn't actually killed but fakes his own death in order to hunt down everyone responsible.
The implication is still there however and movie sets in the 90s weren't exactly Ft. Knox and it wouldn't be inconceivable that some sick in the head F'er gained access and introduced live ammo to a prop gun in some twisted replay of his fathers last film. In any event the gun wranglers on that film didn't strike me as terribly professional or responsible individuals who were essentially using live firearms for movie props.
A little basic gun safety would have gone a long way in both of these events and simple things like "verify the bore condition" might have saved lives. I've seen enough blank firing adapters launched downrange when they failed to respect the power of a blank round.
titsonritz
10-22-21, 02:14
A little basic gun safety would have gone a long way in both of these events and simple things like "verify the bore condition" might have saved lives. I've seen enough blank firing adapters launched downrange when they failed to respect the power of a blank round.
That really is the sad bottom line, 100% preventable and lesson should have already been learned.
Brandon Lee was the first thing that came to my mind. In that incident the official story is the prop gun was used in a live fire event (something that should NEVER happen, you never combine prop guns with live firearms or vice versa) and a squib round occurred that was never corrected and the round remained in the barrel.
The firearm was then returned to the movie set where the blank was of sufficient power to cause the squib round to become a lethal projectile.
That official version of events asks a LOT when it comes to credibility. I suppose somebody could be that incompetent, but that sequence of events just seems unlikely. Whatever actually happened I think the Lee family decided they had had enough hardship and didn't want to sensationalize Brandon's death in the way his fathers death was tabloid fodder for years.
The squib caused by primer does sound a bit more plausible but still unacceptable. Check the damn bore every time you knobs.
The scary thing is to consider his fathers film "Game of Death" where Bruce Lee plays a martial arts actor who refuses to sign a management contract with the local crime syndicates so they send a hitman who gains access to the film set and a live round is swapped for a blank in a prop gun. Of course in the film, Lee isn't actually killed but fakes his own death in order to hunt down everyone responsible.
The implication is still there however and movie sets in the 90s weren't exactly Ft. Knox and it wouldn't be inconceivable that some sick in the head F'er gained access and introduced live ammo to a prop gun in some twisted replay of his fathers last film. In any event the gun wranglers on that film didn't strike me as terribly professional or responsible individuals who were essentially using live firearms for movie props.
A little basic gun safety would have gone a long way in both of these events and simple things like "verify the bore condition" might have saved lives. I've seen enough blank firing adapters launched downrange when they failed to respect the power of a blank round.Brandon Lee was killed by the same people that killed his father because of what they wanted to share from the kung fu world.
End of story.
Red belt Hapkido here ...don't know my degree..but my master Sensei trained with Lee in the 60s and believes he was murdered.
I accept it.
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Obviously, none of those douchebags were/are “gun people”.
I cannot imagine being around a group like that with so many safety violations.
I wonder if this will segue into no more guns in movies.
Anti gun liberals playing with guns and someone dies. Stupid idiots.
Note how Baldwin “discharged” a firearm not “shot someone”.
Averageman
10-22-21, 06:12
Anti gun liberals playing with guns and someone dies. Stupid idiots.
Exactly, Alec Baldwin has always been an ass. I'm sure the gun was pointed at his Director for a "real" reason, stupid games, stupid prizes and all.
But if Alec Baldwin were using the prop gun correctly while filming a scene and this accident happened, then wouldn't it be an actor that was hit?
Why was the photography director killed and the director wounded? Why was the prop pointed at them? Was someone (Baldwin) irresponsibly handling a prop gun while not actually filming a scene? Poor gun handling off camera? Screwing around with a prop gun?
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From my very short time at Stembridge for a summer work spot...
Firearms prop handling is pretty strict and anal retentive..
Nobody at Stembridge was lazy in the safety department.
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Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Baldwin can rot in hell as far as I am concerned.
RIP to the innocent bystander who was killed.
Ten bucks says that the media elites and Barfwin will blame Trump
[emoji849]
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Brandon Lee was killed by the same people that killed his father because of what they wanted to share from the kung fu world.
End of story.
Red belt Hapkido here ...don't know my degree..but my master Sensei trained with Lee in the 60s and believes he was murdered.
I accept it.
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Brandon Lee "may" have been killed intentionally. His father however had a fatal allergic reaction to a popular analgesic taken by many in Hong Kong. He had a previous reaction that was not fatal but nobody made the connection. Using aspirin rather than a more traditional remedy in the form of an analgesic would have saved Lee's life.
There is so much misinformation surrounding the death of Lee I really cannot have this conversation. Believe what you will, but some objective investigation will probably change your mind. Bruce Lee had no "secrets of the kung fu" world, in fact he was abandoning most of it in favor of a more practical, eclectic system.
Furthermore, Lee began his classical training with Yip Man at age 13 and was in the US by age 18. His knowledge of Wing Chun was very incomplete and he had less than 5 years of study in a popular Hong Kong style, he didn't have any secrets to divulge other than his own personal realizations. There is also no "kung fu" mafia operating in Hong Kong making sure nobody learns secret Chinese arts, there is to the contrary a chain of schools known as Ching Wu that were established in many countries in order to promote correct, traditional Chinese boxing instruction. Given that one of these Ching Wu schools was based in San Francisco, I don't think they were hiding anything.
From my very short time at Stembridge for a summer work spot...
Firearms prop handling is pretty strict and anal retentive..
Nobody at Stembridge was lazy in the safety department.
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Stembridge was the exception, and once broken up independent "gun wranglers" took over and prop guys were seen as props and given no more respect than one would give a squirt gun. Most actors don't even know these were once genuine firearms modified for use with blanks, and in some cases unmodified firearms simply loaded with blanks. Actors know virtually nothing about the prop guns in their hands for the most part. The days of Stembridge and the related accountability and safety briefings are no more.
The exception being actors who take the time to obtain actual firearms instruction in order to more credibly portray somebody skilled with firearms.
Averageman
10-22-21, 07:55
Alec Baldwin has always been a selfish pig and a political enemy of America, once is an accident, twice?
Come on Twice?
Adrenaline_6
10-22-21, 07:56
Brandon Lee "may" have been killed intentionally. His father however had a fatal allergic reaction to a popular analgesic taken by many in Hong Kong. He had a previous reaction that was not fatal but nobody made the connection. Using aspirin rather than a more traditional remedy in the form of an analgesic would have saved Lee's life.
There is so much misinformation surrounding the death of Lee I really cannot have this conversation. Believe what you will, but some objective investigation will probably change your mind. Bruce Lee had no "secrets of the kung fu" world, in fact he was abandoning most of it in favor of a more practical, eclectic system.
Furthermore, Lee began his classical training with Yip Man at age 13 and was in the US by age 18. His knowledge of Wing Chun was very incomplete and he had less than 5 years of study in a popular Hong Kong style, he didn't have any secrets to divulge other than his own personal realizations. There is also no "kung fu" mafia operating in Hong Kong making sure nobody learns secret Chinese arts, there is to the contrary a chain of schools known as Ching Wu that were established in many countries in order to promote correct, traditional Chinese boxing instruction. Given that one of these Ching Wu schools was based in San Francisco, I don't think they were hiding anything.
I myself do not have first hand knowledge of things...before my time..and I wouldn't hav been there anyyway.. I have a couple second hand though and they claim it was chinese mafia. Not because of chinese kung fu secrets though. It was money. Bruce owed them AND was cocky. He paid the price for it. Supposedly the people he was messing with had dem mak type abilities. The guy who "touched" him at the dinner table during a heated argument was just a top tier bodyguard. So the story goes. I am only relaying the story.
Yup...and Alec Baldwin can suck it. RIP to the innocent bystander.
Business_Casual
10-22-21, 08:02
We need Baldwin control. Baldwins are dangerous and no one needs a Baldwin. Stop Baldwins! Moms against Baldwins!
Averageman
10-22-21, 08:20
Yup...and Alec Baldwin can suck it. RIP to the innocent bystander.
And yet, explain two bodies, one dead and one wounded?
Perhaps a single bullet hit both, but I'm betting two shots.
john armond
10-22-21, 08:21
The first thing I thought was Brandon Lee, too. In Lee's death, I guess the prop department, wanting to have a close up of a loaded revolver, loaded the gun with rounds that had the powder removed, but they forgot to remove the primer. One of the rounds was fired which caused a squib. Then, in the next scene, they fired the revolver with a blank, which then discharged the stuck round with full pressure, which killed Lee.
I can only guess that something like that happened here. We'll see. It sucks all around.
I used to work for the PD that had jurisdiction in this case. That is exactly what happened. When the projectile was fired the actor wasn’t actually aiming at Lee. Instead he was swinging the gun while pointing it in Lee’s direction. Had he pulled the trigger half a second sooner or later in the swing, the projectile would have probably missed Lee. The investigator also told me that the actual shooting of Lee was featured on one of the initial commercial ads that was publicly shown for the movie.
john armond
10-22-21, 08:25
I have seen a number of videos where stuntmen talk about how common this is on set. It usually doesn't usually end this tragically but apparently it is a disturbingly common occurrence.
I remember seeing something about the making of Enemy at the Gates, and every morning they would take all the actors out and one of the firearms guys would shoot a pumpkin with a blank cartridge so everyone was reminded daily of how deadly they can still be.
Damn, I would have thought they had this shit buttoned up. Always wondered how awkward it would be for a real gun gun to point real guns at people and pull the trigger. It would be very awkward for me.
PB
Usually people that really have no concept of guns and often anti gun to to boot, like Baldwin. My GF wanted to take a pic of me pointing a gun at the camera she was holding and I must have checked and cleared it three times before willing to do it, and it still didn't feel right and alarms were going off whole time. If I was an actor on set, I'd double check status of the blank firing gun I suspect.
Now he knows.
I hope he Hope's himself
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Alec Baldwin has always been a selfish pig and a political enemy of America, once is an accident, twice?
Come on Twice?
My first thought, knowing him, was he either lost his temper and thought it would be cool to scare them, or was just being an A hole on set and thought it would be funny. When I heard two people, didn't buy the accident part at all. Finally, being a western of some sort, not even full auto blank firing guns, so trigger pull for each rnd fired. Hmmmm.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-22-21, 09:21
Now he knows.
I hope he Hope's himself
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This was over a 2017 shooting by a cop in CA that shot a guy who was punching him and trying to take away his gun…. Best tiwitter response I’ve seen was “I guess he can answer that now”.
I used to work for the PD that had jurisdiction in this case. That is exactly what happened. When the projectile was fired the actor wasn’t actually aiming at Lee. Instead he was swinging the gun while pointing it in Lee’s direction. Had he pulled the trigger half a second sooner or later in the swing, the projectile would have probably missed Lee. The investigator also told me that the actual shooting of Lee was featured on one of the initial commercial ads that was publicly shown for the movie.
So the velocity of the rnd from just the primer was enough to kill Lee if I understand correctly? Did it go through his eye or something? That's astounding really. If correct, what are the chances?!
Gabriel556
10-22-21, 10:59
From what I read, he was shot in the abdomen, but the prop gun had a primer in the case that had the bullet loaded for the first scene which caused the squib to lodge in the barrel, then they loaded blanks with some powder and the primer in for the next scene and that powder created pressure to dislodge the squib into Brandon.
As far as Baldwin, I’m sure he’s torn up like most humans, but I also feel there is negligence in this and like you said before Will, pointing a gun, even a prop, would feel weird for any gun guy or girl. That gun may have killed someone else if it was not pointed at the behind the scenes crew, but it sounds like there is more to the story that we won’t know for a while if ever. If this would have happened to an average Joe, we’d be in lockup until this got sorted out and we were charged with something like negligent homicide.
Averageman
10-22-21, 11:14
As far as Baldwin, I’m sure he’s torn up like most humans, but I also feel there is negligence in this and like you said before Will, pointing a gun, even a prop, would feel weird for any gun guy or girl. That gun may have killed someone else if it was not pointed at the behind the scenes crew, but it sounds like there is more to the story that we won’t know for a while if ever. If this would have happened to an average Joe, we’d be in lockup until this got sorted out and we were charged with something like negligent homicide.
It is negligent Homicide.
How was pointing a gun at two Directors, even in the script, let alone pulling the trigger (most likely twice?) and for what effect?
Was it in the script, or did Baldwin just lose his famous temper again?
F" him.
My gosh!
A multi $Billion industry and they can't fashion some sort of prop that is safe!
Are they really just using blanks in real firearms?!
Does it take that much force to emulate a muzzle blast? They need to create a "firearm" that is chambered in something unique and small and have an even smaller bore so the only thing exiting is flash and smoke and 100% impossible for a projectile to move through.....
How's they get through John Wick without multiple incidents is beyond me!
“ A production spokesperson from Rust Movie Productions LLC told Deadline in a statement Thursday that the accident involved "the misfire of a prop gun with blanks" and that "production has been halted for the time being."
Just as I thought; the prop gun was to blame. They’re already setting the stage…..
Averageman
10-22-21, 11:31
My gosh!
A multi $Billion industry and they can't fashion some sort of prop that is safe!
Are they really just using blanks in real firearms?!
Does it take that much force to emulate a muzzle blast? They need to create a "firearm" that is chambered in something unique and small and have an even smaller bore so the only thing exiting is flash and smoke and 100% impossible for a projectile to move through.....
How's they get through John Wick without multiple incidents is beyond me!
It's really not that difficult, common sense actually. What common sense doesn't take in to account is some jackass aiming at and pulling the trigger on someone who's not even in the movie and there is no "Scene".
He wanted to scare them or startle them and there you go, a tragedy. We of course cant hold him responcible, because he is a rich, spoiled Celebrity.
From what I read, he was shot in the abdomen, but the prop gun had a primer in the case that had the bullet loaded for the first scene which caused the squib to lodge in the barrel, then they loaded blanks with some powder and the primer in for the next scene and that powder created pressure to dislodge the squib into Brandon.
I'm not a big believer in fate, but what are the chances!? And the % of people who survive a single GSW to the abdomen that get almost immediate medical attention must be very high, above 90% or better I'd think. It's like the universe just has it out for that family.
As far as Baldwin, I’m sure he’s torn up like most humans, but I also feel there is negligence in this and like you said before Will, pointing a gun, even a prop, would feel weird for any gun guy or girl. That gun may have killed someone else if it was not pointed at the behind the scenes crew, but it sounds like there is more to the story that we won’t know for a while if ever. If this would have happened to an average Joe, we’d be in lockup until this got sorted out and we were charged with something like negligent homicide.
That's because he's an ultra woke elite Hollywood type where a different set of rules and laws apply. It would not surprise me in the least if he, and or they, don't call for more gun control due to this event.
My gosh!
A multi $Billion industry and they can't fashion some sort of prop that is safe!
Are they really just using blanks in real firearms?!
Does it take that much force to emulate a muzzle blast? They need to create a "firearm" that is chambered in something unique and small and have an even smaller bore so the only thing exiting is flash and smoke and 100% impossible for a projectile to move through.....
How's they get through John Wick without multiple incidents is beyond me!
I'm assuming that's mostly sarcasm? How many thousand (millions?) of rnds fired in various matches and such without serious injuries due to the shooters and or SO's being on their game?
My gosh!
A multi $Billion industry and they can't fashion some sort of prop that is safe!
Are they really just using blanks in real firearms?!
Does it take that much force to emulate a muzzle blast? They need to create a "firearm" that is chambered in something unique and small and have an even smaller bore so the only thing exiting is flash and smoke and 100% impossible for a projectile to move through.....
How's they get through John Wick without multiple incidents is beyond me!
I actually just saw a video on this. John Wick used fake guns that use composed air to run the action. They then add muzzle blasts with computer effects.
Averageman
10-22-21, 12:05
I got my first Shotgun as an heirloom after my Grandfather passed.
My Dad and I spent some time in the basement refinishing the stock and reblueing the barrel. I must have rubbed a half gallon of oil in to that darn thing.
First hunt, first shots, My Dad gleemed a field for a head sized pumpkin and stuck it on a fence post. He stepped back a bit. He said this is serious, it's not a game and you need to act like a Man and always be careful and serious when you handle a gun. He shot that pumpkin and it disappeared. He said, "that could just as easily be your head as that pumpkin."
Never had a negligent discharge, I never put up with that shit from people shooting with me either.
SomeOtherGuy
10-22-21, 12:18
Rumor mill is that the crew was non-union at the time due to a strike, and that the union, which shouldn't have been there, reported that live ammo was in the gun.
https://voxday.net/2021/10/22/ban-fake-guns-in-hollywood/
UPDATE: Given the fact that the Hollywood crews were on strike and had been replaced by local New Mexicans, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that the live rounds were planted by a union member.
It’s unclear where the union got the information that the round fired by Baldwin was a live one, since none of its members were on the movie set.
They’d certainly know if one of their members was responsible for loading it.
I don't know how reliable this rumor/report is.
Even if that were true, there's no clear reason why two non-actors would have been shot, especially with some kind of manual action gun. Goes back to ideas mentioned above that Baldwin was being a jackass and threatening them with a "prop" gun, or something of the sort.
--------------------------
So why aren't "prop" guns fitted with muzzle blocks, like the blank firing adapters used for semiautos to cycle with blanks? There are styles that fit entirely in the barrel and can't be seen for filming. It seems that would reduce the chance of people being shot with real bullets from "prop" guns.
Troutrunner
10-22-21, 12:29
Rumor mill is that the crew was non-union at the time due to a strike, and that the union, which shouldn't have been there, reported that live ammo was in the gun.
https://voxday.net/2021/10/22/ban-fake-guns-in-hollywood/
I don't know how reliable this rumor/report is.
Even if that were true, there's no clear reason why two non-actors would have been shot, especially with some kind of manual action gun. Goes back to ideas mentioned above that Baldwin was being a jackass and threatening them with a "prop" gun, or something of the sort.
--------------------------
So why aren't "prop" guns fitted with muzzle blocks, like the blank firing adapters used for semiautos to cycle with blanks? There are styles that fit entirely in the barrel and can't be seen for filming. It seems that would reduce the chance of people being shot with real bullets from "prop" guns.
The local movie crews were threatening to strike starting this past Monday but never did. On these sets, it's a mix of union and non-union a lot of times and they use locals because the state gives big tax breaks to do so.
My wife is on a set in Santa Fe for another production, at the same time, and they are not using blanks, they just add the flash and boom in later in post production.
Troutrunner
10-22-21, 12:30
I can see an actor pointing a gun directly at a camera, or in the vicinity, that has the director and other people behind it.
Adrenaline_6
10-22-21, 12:35
I can see an actor pointing a gun directly at a camera, or in the vicinity, that has the director and other people behind it.
maybe...but pointing and discharging are two separate things. Safety should be paramount, and discharging a firearm, even with blanks, while aiming at someone should be an absolute no no.
Averageman
10-22-21, 12:37
I can see an actor pointing a gun directly at a camera, or in the vicinity, that has the director and other people behind it.
Except when the shootting happened, they weren't doing a scene.
He was ****ing up, anyway you look at it.
I used to love to run a range and find a wise ass like this, because if you took their weapon and threw them off the range, their First Sergeant woulkd have to come down to retrieve it. Always entertaining.
Troutrunner
10-22-21, 12:43
Except when the shootting happened, they weren't doing a scene.
He was ****ing up, anyway you look at it.
I used to love to run a range and find a wise ass like this, because if you took their weapon and threw them off the range, their First Sergeant woulkd have to come down to retrieve it. Always entertaining.
Haven't seen or read anything stating they were or were not shooting a scene or even rehearsal. As usual, we need to wait for the investigation to find out what happened.
Haven't seen or read anything stating they were or were not shooting a scene or even rehearsal. As usual, we need to wait for the investigation to find out what happened.
I hadn't thought of that, but perhaps they were shooting/rehearsing a scene and he accidentally did shoot them at that time not being aware of the fact the gun was loaded with something it should not have been. In that case, much harder to fault him as much as I don't like him as a person and had assumed the worst case scenario about him.
They need to be limited to obviously inert toy guns and special effects being limited to the bearer saying "bang". Rarely used realistically anyway and would counter their hypocrisy on arms issues.
Averageman
10-22-21, 13:37
They need to be limited to obviously inert toy guns and special effects being limited to the bearer saying "bang". Rarely used realistically anyway and would counter their hypocrisy on arms issues.
You might be surprised at how many "Have To" because they are felons
Averageman
10-22-21, 13:38
I hadn't thought of that, but perhaps they were shooting/rehearsing a scene and he accidentally did shoot them at that time not being aware of the fact the gun was loaded with something it should not have been. In that case, much harder to fault him as much as I don't like him as a person and had assumed the worst case scenario about him.
Please explain accidently shooting two people to me?
P2Vaircrewman
10-22-21, 13:43
Santa Fe is not too far from OH58D's ranch. He told me a couple of weeks ago he was supplying horses for a western movie being filmed.
Averageman
10-22-21, 13:47
It happened in the neighborhood of OH58D's ranch. He told me a couple of weeks ago he was supplying horses for a western movie being filmed.
Well, I'll be damned, I havent heard from him in a while.
P2Vaircrewman
10-22-21, 13:49
He said the movie business in NM has been booming and keeping him busy
Gabriel556
10-22-21, 13:58
That’s a guy I miss seeing around here. Paging OH58D! At least no horses were injured in this incident. Sorry, too soon?
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-22-21, 14:08
Please explain accidently shooting two people to me?
My thought was that something lodged in the barrel and the blank shot it, perhaps at close range, giving a shotgun effect.
If teh live round is correct, perhaps it was a through and through. 45LC round?
Do we know if it was a revolver or a some kind of long gun with a pump or lever.
I remember reading/seeing a story where sone prop guns used barrel plugs. If appropriate, I can see a poorly installed plug or poorly maintained one becoming a projectile.
Going to be interesting to see if this was the result of horseplay or an actual scene where the 2 victims were supposed to be in front of the muzzle trying to get some camera angle.
john armond
10-22-21, 14:22
From what I read, he was shot in the abdomen, but the prop gun had a primer in the case that had the bullet loaded for the first scene which caused the squib to lodge in the barrel, then they loaded blanks with some powder and the primer in for the next scene and that powder created pressure to dislodge the squib into Brandon.
That about sums it up. I actually met the head prop guy when he was working on another movie. He came into our bike shop to buy some bikes for a movie and almost hired me as a stunt double, but I was a couple inches too high. This was a year after The Crow, and in the same town.
During the filming of The Crow the prop guy (I wont name him) purchased, from a local pawn shop, the ammo used to MAKE (yes they actually made their own dummys from live ammo) the dummy rounds for a close up shot. While they were filming that close up shot they fired through the cylinder, click, click, click, pop, click, click. No one paid attention to the pop, checked the homemade dummy rounds when they unloaded the gun, or that the barrel was free of obstructions before filming the scene (using full power blank rounds) in which Lee was shot.
I started working for the police department about three years after Lee’s death. The investigating detective did my lie detector prior to my employment. When I was working there we were talking about some homicides he worked, and the Lee investigation came up. That’s when I read the report and how I learned his shooting was actually shown on the coming attractions reel. When he was shot in the abdomen, Lee went down, like he was supposed to for the scene. It wasn’t until they cut that they noticed something wasn’t correct. Even when they did notice, they weren’t sure what had happened. That delayed treatment.
https://tinyurl.com/58azmk7m
Oh and Gail King reports "it's clearly an accident" of course having no knowledge of the event. You gotta love Liberals when they start circling the wagons. Has nothing to do with the fact Alex Baldwin is a piece of trash.
Accident my ass. I assume the guy that lived got some plexiglass shards.
titsonritz
10-22-21, 14:49
Please explain accidently shooting two people to me?
Apparently a live round was in the "prop" gun, the bullet went through Hutchins and hit Souza.
https://www.insider.com/alec-baldwin-prop-gun-contained-live-round-union-says-2021-10
Please explain accidently shooting two people to me?
You're doing a scene. The scene is you draw and fire twice. "Cut" yells director. There's all manner of people on the set. Problem is, gun happens to loaded with something else but intended blanks for the scene. Projectile hits two people. That's an accident as far as the shooter is concerned, and total F up by who ever was dealing with the gun.
That's a scenario that could happen and per article linked #60 sounds like that may be exactly what happened.
That about sums it up. I actually met the head prop guy when he was working on another movie. He came into our bike shop to buy some bikes for a movie and almost hired me as a stunt double, but I was a couple inches too high. This was a year after The Crow, and in the same town.
During the filming of The Crow the prop guy (I wont name him) purchased, from a local pawn shop, the ammo used to MAKE (yes they actually made their own dummys from live ammo) the dummy rounds for a close up shot. While they were filming that close up shot they fired through the cylinder, click, click, click, pop, click, click. No one paid attention to the pop, checked the homemade dummy rounds when they unloaded the gun, or that the barrel was free of obstructions before filming the scene (using full power blank rounds) in which Lee was shot.
I started working for the police department about three years after Lee’s death. The investigating detective did my lie detector prior to my employment. When I was working there we were talking about some homicides he worked, and the Lee investigation came up. That’s when I read the report and how I learned his shooting was actually shown on the coming attractions reel. When he was shot in the abdomen, Lee went down, like he was supposed to for the scene. It wasn’t until they cut that they noticed something wasn’t correct. Even when they did notice, they weren’t sure what had happened. That delayed treatment.
That's just sounding worse and worse! All prop guys who handle guns should be gun guys! Ugh.
The kid brother of one of my coworkers died in a similar tragedy about 10 years ago by putting a prop gun with a blank to his head as a joke during theater practice and pulled the trigger. Absolutely tragic.
The kid brother of one of my coworkers died in a similar tragedy about 10 years ago by putting a prop gun with a blank to his head as a joke during theater practice and pulled the trigger. Absolutely tragic.
That's happened more times than many may realize.
john armond
10-22-21, 15:31
That's just sounding worse and worse! All prop guys who handle guns should be gun guys! Ugh.
This one wasn’t. That was part of the problem.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/582b7ce983faead89cfc6a65c9a62ce0.jpg
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/582b7ce983faead89cfc6a65c9a62ce0.jpg
:laugh: Eff Baldwin and every pedo in Hollywood.
A few comments on it.
https://youtu.be/fyegOj45WFA
This one wasn’t. That was part of the problem.
Considering the obvious potential dangers, I'd have expected a known and standardized SOP that has to be followed when using firearms on a set. Been on a number of movie sets, but none had a any shooting in them when I was there. One was a low budget horror movie when I was a kid. Fun to watch it was.
As hot headed as he is, I wouldn’t doubt that this was some sort of “revenge”, a purposeful accident if you will.
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Story gets stranger by the minute:
Alec Baldwin ‘Rust’ camera crew walked off the set in protest before the fatal shooting
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set?
titsonritz
10-22-21, 16:03
As hot headed as he is, I wouldn’t doubt that this was some sort of “revenge”, a purposeful accident if you will.
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The dude is a real POS, here is a timeline of his greatest hits...
Alec Baldwin's Temper: A Timeline (https://www.nickiswift.com/275727/alec-baldwins-temper-a-timeline/)
And the moral of the story is that guns are dangerous, even for those that hate them and use them as movie props. And like everything dangerous if not given due respect will cause harm.
Alec Baldwin is an evil person, but I don't wish this kind of trial on anyone. Depending on the state of his conscience, he will have to live with this burden the rest of his short life. It won't be pleasant.
john armond
10-22-21, 16:14
The woman he killed was for the strike. Baldwin more than likely would be against it. Wondering if he had one of his tantrums and was screwing around (read being stupid/careless) with the gun.
Edited for clarification
And the moral of the story is that guns are dangerous, even for those that hate them and use them as movie props. And like everything dangerous if not given due respect will cause harm.
Alec Baldwin is an evil person, but I don't wish this kind of trial on anyone. Depending on the state of his conscience, he will have to live with this burden the rest of his short life. It won't be pleasant.
I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but it happened and considering who he is and what he is? I'll spend all my empathy on his victims and their loved ones. Baldwin is on an island of his own making here.
john armond
10-22-21, 16:46
Reading on a car forum I frequent and saw where Trump is already being blamed in passing:
ETA: I’m not sure how to post his actual tweet, so I just copy/pasted it.
Johannes Velterop ⓐⓊ Flag of European UnionFlag of NetherlandsFlag of United KingdomFlag of GermanyFace with medical mask
@Villavelius
·
11h
Might the prop gun have been secretly loaded with real bullets by a Trump supporter, to punish Alec Baldwin for his Trump parodies? Should be a line of inquiry.
He said the movie business in NM has been booming and keeping him busy
When you're a comically poor state, and stupidly chase away Intel and make FB/Amz downsize their operations, then film becomes the third largest industry in the state (after NWC and energy
)...
,https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211022/892b597b5cef2e007c1a65ee9b21436b.jpg
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I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but it happened and considering who he is and what he is? I'll spend all my empathy on his victims and their loved ones. Baldwin is on an island of his own making here.
I agree, the victims deserve the empathy. If I sounded like I was not I am correcting that now. Alec isn't a sympathetic person.
Now it's coming out that they had two other negligent discharges on Saturday with the prop guns!!!
This is a shit show.
The woman he killed was for the strike. Baldwin more than likely would be against it. Wondering if he had one of his tantrums and was screwing around with the gun.
If that were the case it would not be a stretch to consider he loaded the live round.
However that video I posted above the guy ( if you click through to his tiktok page, says that when filming an actor will use a gun that can't possibly fire a round. The the director will call 'cut'. The actor will be handed the firing prop gun 'action' "bang" 'cut'. So basically the actor should have no reason or time to be screwing around with a gun.
Alec Baldwin is the last person I would stand in front of if he had a gun in his hand unless it was a water pistol and I would examine it first.
The thing I don't get is why even if it's a prop would he aim at someone much less the camera person.
He has supposedly been in touch with that girls husband. She also had a child. What exactly is he going to say. Hey I killed your wife today it was an accident. I aimed a loaded gun at her and pulled the trigger. Oh well, SNL will work it out like they did with Dick Cheney. A few weeks of jokes and it will all be forgotten. It's the Liberal thing to do.
It is negligent Homicide.
How was pointing a gun at two Directors, even in the script, let alone pulling the trigger (most likely twice?) and for what effect?
Was it in the script, or did Baldwin just lose his famous temper again?
F" him.
Baldwin is a disgusting person. He should be charged. He should be in police custody now!
He is anti-gun wtf is he using guns. Could be he's a hypocrite. Or just a irresponsible idiot.
I'm thinking both.
john armond
10-22-21, 18:32
If that were the case it would not be a stretch to consider he loaded the live round.
However that video I posted above the guy ( if you click through to his tiktok page, says that when filming an actor will use a gun that can't possibly fire a round. The the director will call 'cut'. The actor will be handed the firing prop gun 'action' "bang" 'cut'. So basically the actor should have no reason or time to be screwing around with a gun.
Alec Baldwin is the last person I would stand in front of if he had a gun in his hand unless it was a water pistol and I would examine it first.
The thing I don't get is why even if it's a prop would he aim at someone much less the camera person.
He has supposedly been in touch with that girls husband. She also had a child. What exactly is he going to say. Hey I killed your wife today it was an accident. I aimed a loaded gun at her and pulled the trigger. Oh well, SNL will work it out like they did with Dick Cheney. A few weeks of jokes and it will all be forgotten. It's the Liberal thing to do.
By “screwing around” I didn’t mean in the nefarious I’ll put a live round in here. What I meant was being stupid/irresponsible.
As far as not using real firearms that can load real rounds, productions have, and I would guess still do.
LA Times article; “ Safety protocols standard in the industry, including gun inspections, were not strictly followed on the “Rust” set near Santa Fe, the sources said. They said at least one of the camera operators complained last weekend to production managers about gun safety on the set.
Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set that day said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges on Saturday.”
ShitShow.
Yep. If it was not one of the elite idiots, it would have been a shooting, especially if law enforcement. The elitist crowd would be crying foul.
By “screwing around” I didn’t mean in the nefarious I’ll put a live round in here. What I meant was being stupid/irresponsible.
As far as not using real firearms that can load real rounds, productions have, and I would guess still do.
Yeah, I'm just saying, he has a known temper and he thinks he's too cool to fool. I would not doubt any form of abuse or stupidity that comes from him.
I got my first Shotgun as an heirloom after my Grandfather passed.
My Dad and I spent some time in the basement refinishing the stock and reblueing the barrel. I must have rubbed a half gallon of oil in to that darn thing.
First hunt, first shots, My Dad gleemed a field for a head sized pumpkin and stuck it on a fence post. He stepped back a bit. He said this is serious, it's not a game and you need to act like a Man and always be careful and serious when you handle a gun. He shot that pumpkin and it disappeared. He said, "that could just as easily be your head as that pumpkin."
Never had a negligent discharge, I never put up with that shit from people shooting with me either.
He violated the fundamentals of firearms safety. He should be arrested. I went to Norwich University. When students were disciplined they often were ordered to March “tours” around the flagpole. We carried demiled 1903 Springfield Rifles. They had lead poured the complete length of the bore and the actions had been cut with a torch. A fellow cadet pointed one at me as I walked by him. He was upset when I snatched it away from him and threatened to buttstroke him. It really pissed me off even though I knew it wasn’t capable of firing.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/alec-baldwin-s-movie-set-was-plagued-by-gun-misfires-before-halyna-hutchins-tragic-death/ar-AAPQpZ8
Baldwin is a Co-Producer, he had control of safety, he fired the gun, he was fore warned and pleaded with. How is he a free man?
The tragedy of Hutchins’ death is a direct result of what IATSE members were fighting for regarding safer working conditions on the set, the source said. “This is what IATSE was fighting about with the producer; this epitomizes that fight will be dealt with on this show. Help us make good films without dying,” they pleaded.
And despite Baldwin having recently gone through a firearm-safety training session, the source said safety protocols were all but ignored by both Baldwin and the responsible production members.
john armond
10-22-21, 18:51
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/alec-baldwin-s-movie-set-was-plagued-by-gun-misfires-before-halyna-hutchins-tragic-death/ar-AAPQpZ8
Baldwin is a Co-Producer, he had control of safety, he fired the gun, he was fore warned and pleaded with. How is he a free man?
The tragedy of Hutchins’ death is a direct result of what IATSE members were fighting for regarding safer working conditions on the set, the source said. “This is what IATSE was fighting about with the producer; this epitomizes that fight will be dealt with on this show. Help us make good films without dying,” they pleaded.
And despite Baldwin having recently gone through a firearm-safety training session, the source said safety protocols were all but ignored by both Baldwin and the responsible production members.
Does anyone really believe Mr. Anti-gun Baldwin would actually take a firearms safety course seriously?
Reading on a car forum I frequent and saw where Trump is already being blamed in passing:
ETA: I’m not sure how to post his actual tweet, so I just copy/pasted it.
Johannes Velterop ⓐⓊ Flag of European UnionFlag of NetherlandsFlag of United KingdomFlag of GermanyFace with medical mask
@Villavelius
·
11h
Might the prop gun have been secretly loaded with real bullets by a Trump supporter, to punish Alec Baldwin for his Trump parodies? Should be a line of inquiry.Lemme guess..... Russia!!
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triggerjerk
10-22-21, 20:40
I'm just a Fudd, so please bear with me.....
As alluded to earlier: it is not a war zone, it is not hunting a ground, it is not a target shooting venue, it is not a self-defense situation. It is make believe. With today's special effects capabilities, there is no reason for a functioning firearm to be on a movie set unless in possession by security.
They want to hold gun manufacturers responsible for gun violence. When will Hollywood be held responsible for promotion of gun violence and other forms of behavior detrimental to the smooth functioning of society?
There. I'll go away now.
I can't stand his arrogant libtard ass, but.......this was obviously an accident and a lady died as a result. As many "strikes" as I give him in the butt-wipe category, I can't fault him for this.
It's not an accident when you are in charge and 'accidents' happen daily. That is negligence. This "accident", provided what we know so far, and based on professionals reporting, was completely preventable and there were fore-warnings, occurrences, that indicated something like this was likely to happen on that set.
If the gun had blown up and killed AB with no prior indications of problems on the set, that would be an accident. If they had bought blanks from a company and one killed someone and they were found to have been double loaded with hard debris inside. That would be an accident. This whole deal was writing on the wall the way it has been relayed to the public thus far.
Baldwin - Co-producer, Actor, Co-story writer, handler of weapon after others had had firing issues just days before, film crew leaving site en-mass prior to REHEARSAL of the scene where he kills the DP. That is not an accident. It's stupidity, arrogance, negligence.
He deserves at least 10 years for this and have his empire sued into ruin as that seems to be what Liberals like to do.
He was fully in charge as a professional wearing many hats for that production. No other professional in any realm of work would get away with what he's trying to get away with. Ok, Hillary, but she doesn't count. He's trying to get away with politician level crimes. He needs to have a talk with Bill Cosby about crimes and comedians vs crimes and politicians.
If he had the gun in his hand when it fired, he is to blame. He knew or should have known it was an unsafe situation by the nature of his involvement in that particular movie process and his lifetime experience in the industry. Mr. Knowitall can't play stupid now.
I'll leave open the possibility that someone from the union, a deranged maga person, a false flag antifa type, got in there and somehow planted a live round, hell the ghost of Mickey Mouse, but all those warning signs prior to this happening. You just can't ignore those warnings as a normal person much less a professional in charge and yet he did.... in a rehearsal no less.
I can't stand his arrogant libtard ass, but.......this was obviously an accident and a lady died as a result. As many "strikes" as I give him in the butt-wipe category, I can't fault him for this.
Pretty much. The fault is 100% with the gun wranglers who were the "safties" for the prop guns they provided. I don't just hand out guns to people who are clueless and expect that nothing will go wrong.
Worse yet, Baldwin will turn this into a personal crusade and an example of why guns are so very dangerous and must be more strictly regulated. Maybe it will result in a ban on film use of prop guns which were once live firearms. No more post samples for the film industry, play with airsoft like everyone else has to.
Averageman
10-22-21, 21:56
Worse yet, Baldwin will turn this into a personal crusade and an example of why guns are so very dangerous and must be more strictly regulated. Maybe it will result in a ban on film use of prop guns which were once live firearms. No more post samples for the film industry, play with airsoft like everyone else has to.
Either way, it's a win/win for Baldwin.
I can see him now making the rounds as the anti-gun poster child whom we should all feel sorry for.
When in fact, Baldwin had enough "juice" to shut down production until filming with weapons was made safe.
Averageman
10-22-21, 21:57
doubled
I actually just saw a video on this. John Wick used fake guns that use composed air to run the action. They then add muzzle blasts with computer effects.
Considering most of the shots were contact distance they probably didn't have a choice.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-22-21, 22:55
I seriously doubt that it was a live round. From what I heard so far the bastards were so cheap that there’s no way that they would’ve actually fired a live round. Ammo cost a lot of money.
Either way, it's a win/win for Baldwin.
I can see him now making the rounds as the anti-gun poster child whom we should all feel sorry for.
When in fact, Baldwin had enough "juice" to shut down production until filming with weapons was made safe.
For me it's win/win. This costs Baldwin who will need to fund some kind of defense, legal or otherwise AND it costs Hollywood and anyone who hires Baldwin. How many producers are going to want to cast him in their next film? The answer is less than last week.
Not like I give a F if I ever see whatever film this was going to be. Hollywood as a whole wants to be anti gun...fine. Let them use airsoft or true prop guns. No more realistic looking brass rainbows in your action hero films. Let them pay big money to CGI all that crap.
the left will embrace the dangers of guns see even prop guns kill !!!
The problem they are going to have is why is someone so anti gun shooting people and killing them on a movie set and why did he not check it why did this happen and why again is someone making money off guns if they are against them
The left will embrace him as a hero who stands up most likely ? Could be wrong
But the thing is he is a idiot and shot someone with a loaded gun playing around !
IMHO kinda a bad situation as he has know way out now and the bad side of me hopes people NEVER let him forget it and just keep it going and going and going and going and going
Boycott his shit movie.
I believe if an actor is stupid vocal anti 2A, they’ve given up their right to make a living exploiting firearms.
There are a lot of those slimeballs out there.
Man I feel sorry for the dude. Hopefully this experience will humble him and make him a better person. I feel even more sorry for whoever's fault this was. Even if it was some freak accident not due to negligence, I'm sure that doesn't make them feel any better.
Beyond that, this sort of thing is pretty much bound to happen from time to time. They oftentimes do dangerous stuff on movie sets, and sometimes people get hurt and killed. Humans are forgetful and negligent creatures, and sometimes even when we're at our best there are fatal flaws in our safety systems that nobody could have predicted.
Or on the other hand I just found this: https://imgur.com/a/gJGkVVo#Bb0xExE
Maybe the Clintons paid him to send a message?
I seriously don't think that's what happened, but I wouldn't be altogether surprised if it were. Hollyweird is ten miles deep down the rabbit hole, and who knows what goes on behind closed doors with some of these people. The Hollywood establishment, the media, the music industry...they're all tied up in a nice neat little ball with the political despots who run this country, and they are some weird freaky shitbirds to the max. All that Epstein shit, all the satanic weirdness surrounding the likes of that Abromovich character they all flock around. All you can say about the elite is that they play by a whole different set of rules, and that they live in a seriously ****ed up reality I'm sure none of us could even begin to comprehend.
Averageman
10-23-21, 07:40
So why and how do live bullets end up on a movie set?
Gabriel556
10-23-21, 08:01
So why and how do live bullets end up on a movie set?
That’s the real question I have. There should be no reason for it when working shootout scenes at all. Sterile environment.
Averageman
10-23-21, 08:45
That’s the real question I have. There should be no reason for it when working shootout scenes at all. Sterile environment.
Well that and why in the F is he pointing a gun and firing it at someone in the crew.
Chances are he was horsing around like the ass he is when it happened.
Hm.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211023/e18fa8bc27469fe44175d969bd380d8b.jpg
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One of the articles I read indicated there were three pistols on a cart.
When it came time to do the scene or whatever it was they were doing, the director (or someone like that) grabbed one of the pistols off the cart and handed it to Baldwin.
The sad thing is anyone who was familiarized with firearms would know to do very fundamental checks when handed a firearm. Much less when you were going to be pointing it in the direction of people.
Averageman
10-23-21, 09:23
One of the articles I read indicated there were three pistols on a cart.
When it came time to do the scene or whatever it was they were doing, the director (or someone like that) grabbed one of the pistols off the cart and handed it to Baldwin.
The sad thing is anyone who was familiarized with firearms would know to do very fundamental checks when handed a firearm. Much less when you were going to be pointing it in the direction of people.
Wow that sounds like something the NRA would say...
Wow that sounds like something the NRA would say...Yes... Imagine that!
Pretty much. The fault is 100% with the gun wranglers who were the "safties" for the prop guns they provided.
There this: https://metro.co.uk/2021/10/23/rust-armorer-was-new-to-job-and-worried-she-wasnt-ready-15473662/
Apparently the woman who was head armorer for this set was relatively new to the job. Comments in the article refer to an earlier experience of hers, but its not clear if she was urged by her father to become an armorer or if she had a genuine interest in the minutia of firearms.
Someone who serves as an armorer should be able to discuss firearms with an exactitude and a level of detail that is solid and correct. I don't get that sense from her statements in the podcast (but it is a small sample, and possibly outdated).
Thing is, we are trying to determine what happened based on media reports; and reporters are often dreadful at trying to translate information about firearms.
The term 'misfire' keeps showing up and when the they use it apparently, they are probably describing a hammer falling on an empty chamber instead of a cartridge failing to fire. As an unrelated example: if a scene required only two shots, and the gun used in this hypothetical scene was only loaded with two blanks, but the cylinder was improperly indexed, the scene would have to be redone when things didn't go as planned because the gun didn't fire on cue. In order to keep that type of failure from happening, because people often manipulate guns, the armorer has to assign someone (or several people) to watch the gun handling like a hawk.
I've seen several movies where pistols were used. For a camera angle change, the actor would fire a few rounds and the gun would lock open on an empty mag (a slight faux pas). In the movie, the next view shows and the gun is still in battery and being fired.
Its because when they filmed the intermediate scene, only enough blanks were put in the gun to do that small part of the script.
It ends up looking like an editing error.
Its not quite as bad as the gun changing brands in the middle of a scene.
The fault is 100% with the gun wranglers who were the "safties" for the prop guns they provided.
Yeah no.
There is so much blame to go around here it is off the charts. Until we know who did or didnt do what, when and what their contract stated they were responsible for, it is unknown who is responsible. a phuck up this big rarely is one person. Requires multiple layers of failure.
I don't just hand out guns to people who are clueless and expect that nothing will go wrong.
Probably why you are not a Hollywood gun wrangler, as you would never get hired.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-23-21, 13:50
Do we know yet what type of gun was used?
Do we know yet what type of gun was used?
Reportedly a SA Colt 45
Smells of all inclusiveness to me, and just gets worse and worse with each new detail:
'I wasn't sure if I was ready': The 24-year-old armorer who had doubts before being put in charge of guns on Alec Baldwin film set where he shot cinematographer dead - after some crew walked out over safety
Armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed and assistant director Dave Halls were named in search warrant on Friday
Gutierrez-Reed, 24, laid out three guns, and Halls picked up a Colt pistol and handed it to Baldwin
'Cold gun!' shouted Halls, a veteran assistant director who worked on Fargo and The Matrix Reloaded
When Baldwin pulled the trigger, a bullet was fired, killing the cinematographer and injuring the director
Gutierrez-Reed is the daughter of legendary Hollywood armorer Thell Reed who trained her from a young age
She recently served as head armorer on a film for the first time, on The Old Way, starring Nicolas Cage
In a podcast interview after filming ended, she said she wasn't sure if she was ready to be a head armorer
Meanwhile, troubling reports highlight safety concerns on the set of Baldwin's Western film, Rust
Production crew on the set of Rust walked out on Thursday morning in a row over safety and long hours
On Thursday, when they arrived to pack up, they found a team of non-union workers waiting to replace them
Halyna Hutchins decided to stay on the set and film with Alec Baldwin and the film director Joel Souza
She had been advocating on behalf of her team for better working conditions, but was killed by the bullet
Last night Baldwin attended a private memorial and tweeted article claiming he was told prop gun was safe
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10123003/I-wasnt-sure-ready-Doubts-head-armorer-24-charge-guns-Alec-Baldwin-film.html?
Averageman
10-23-21, 14:07
So if someone hands you a revolver and asks you to shoot it, do you randomly pull the trigger, or do you open it and verify the load?
She recently served as head armorer on a film for the first time, on The Old Way, starring Nicolas Cage
In a podcast interview after filming ended, she said she wasn't sure if she was ready to be a head armorer
.
This quote is relative to the Cage movie, not the Baldwin movie. Presumably since she completed the Cage movie she knew if she was ready or not for the Baldwin movie.
My direct experience on set was just for a few History Channel shoots 20 years ago, but I've more than a fair bit of time being in the shops of armorers and hanging with gun wranglers. If this was a live round, the armorer screwed up the 1st line of defense not checking and confirming the pistols. Whomever retrieved the pistol (sounds like it was not the armorer) failed the 2nd line by declaring the gun was cold without confirming. Baldwin failed the 3rd line by pointing the pistol at a person.
When we did our shoots, ammo was always confirmed and checked before hand. We were always instructed to fire off line of our target. The camera angle would do the work. Never aim directly at someone. Same things we did for choreographed live public demonstrations/shows. Even with blanks, aim a few feet away from a live body.
Baldwin, as an actor in this movie, gets a pass on not checking the pistol. Many times, the actor is placed in position, handed the firearm, the shot is taken/sequence filmed, and the firearm is immediately removed before the actor moves again. Chain of custody. The actors are depending on paid professionals to ensure the firearm they are given is properly prepared. He will (I guess "should have" to is more correct) have to answer as to why he was aiming a firearm at a person(s). That is not industry practice, even with props.
Baldwin, as a producer on this movie, is going to have to answer for the safety issues surrounding the set. He DOES have control and say over that. It sounds like there were multiple issues on set, including some with the firearms, leading up to the shooting.
So if someone hands you a revolver and asks you to shoot it, do you randomly pull the trigger, or do you open it and verify the load?
We here would check it period.
Things must be different on a set. One doesn't randomly pull a trigger, it is supposed to be according to the script and the gun needs to go bang according to the script. So if a revolver is being used and it does not have a full cylinder, it has to be indexed so that the blank is going to fire with the next trigger cycle of manipulation.
If you are familiar with the gun, this is not difficult to arrange. Most of the people involved are not familiar with these things and if they handle the gun much there is an 80% chance it will be wrong when its needed.
This is more of a people control problem than a gun control problem.
Still doesn't explain where a live cartridge came from.
Straight Shooter
10-23-21, 14:17
HOW in the Hell can THELL REED'S DAUGHTER....NOT know guns/firearms safety inside & out?
Not implying she didnt...actually sayin the opposite. He has worked with her all her life. Are they now trying to scapegoat her?
Averageman
10-23-21, 14:20
Some time ago, I read somewhere that Hollywood Gun Wranglers now have to have "Special" set of nonfiring weapons because so many of these guys are convicted felons.
My direct experience on set was just for a few History Channel shoots 20 years ago, but I've more than a fair bit of time being in the shops of armorers and hanging with gun wranglers. If this was a live round, the armorer screwed up the 1st line of defense not checking and confirming the pistols. Whomever retrieved the pistol (sounds like it was not the armorer) failed the 2nd line by declaring the gun was cold without confirming. Baldwin failed the 3rd line by pointing the pistol at a person.
When we did our shoots, ammo was always confirmed and checked before hand. We were always instructed to fire off line of our target. The camera angle would do the work. Never aim directly at someone. Same things we did for choreographed live public demonstrations/shows. Even with blanks, aim a few feet away from a live body.
Baldwin, as an actor in this movie, gets a pass on not checking the pistol. Many times, the actor is placed in position, handed the firearm, the shot is taken/sequence filmed, and the firearm is immediately removed before the actor moves again. Chain of custody. The actors are depending on paid professionals to ensure the firearm they are given is properly prepared. He will (I guess "should have" to is more correct) have to answer as to why he was aiming a firearm at a person(s). That is not industry practice, even with props.
Baldwin, as a producer on this movie, is going to have to answer for the safety issues surrounding the set. He DOES have control and say over that. It sounds like there were multiple issues on set, including some with the firearms, leading up to the shooting.
No he doesn’t get a pass. He pulled the trigger on a real firearm despite not KNOWING its status. Industry practice doesn’t trump law or the rules of gun safety.
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No he doesn’t get a pass. He pulled the trigger on a real firearm despite not KNOWING its status. Industry practice doesn’t trump law or the rules of gun safety.
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Reading comprehension is key. I said he gets a pass on not checking the ammo. I then went on to say he needs to answer for not pointing the gun in a safe direction.
So if someone hands you a revolver and asks you to shoot it, do you randomly pull the trigger, or do you open it and verify the load?
Not in this situation. You're handed a prepared "prop". Your reasonable expectation is that it has been properly prepared for the scene. Go around a set and starting fiddling with props and you'll quickly find yourself off the set. Armors and gun wranglers are not going to be happy watching an actor mess with the props they are responsible for. I certainly wouldn't want an actor messing with the ammunition after it's out of my custody.
Actor John Schneider, 2A supporter and gun guy lays down the reality of the total F up that was this event and the process you follow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O6gudWsxIM
Reading comprehension is key. I said he gets a pass on not checking the ammo. I then went on to say he needs to answer for not pointing the gun in a safe direction.
I disagree. You put any gun in my hand, it becomes my responsibility. You don’t get a pass for shooting somebody because somebody else says it’s clear.
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I disagree. You put any gun in my hand, it becomes my responsibility. You don’t get a pass for shooting somebody because somebody else says it’s clear.
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As a shooter, I don't disagree. But these are movie sets with actors and the guns are "props". It does seem rather ****ed up from the outside looking in and there are plenty of movie review threads here complaining about poor Hollywood gun handling. This is a screw up that will hopefully wake up what is an ignorant, arrogant, and complacent group.
That said, I really don't think it's unreasonable for an actor not to check the firearm before a scene. There are trained professionals on set who are there to handle the firearms. I'm not saying he's not responsible. He's a veteran actor with gun handling experience. He's been through more than a few set safety briefings. Why on earth was he pointing it at the cinematographer? I just don't believe he can reasonably be called out for not checking the ammo.
As a producer on the set, after the previous incidents why didn't they stop and have a safety meeting to address the other issues. That is something he does have responsibility for. He's going to have to answer for that as well.
As a shooter, I don't disagree. But these are movie sets with actors and the guns are "props". It does seem rather ****ed up from the outside looking in and there are plenty of movie review threads here complaining about poor Hollywood gun handling. This is a screw up that will hopefully wake up what is an ignorant, arrogant, and complacent group.
That said, I really don't think it's unreasonable for an actor not to check the firearm before a scene. There are trained professionals on set who are there to handle the firearms. I'm not saying he's not responsible. He's a veteran actor with gun handling experience. He's been through more than a few set safety briefings. Why on earth was he pointing it at the cinematographer? I just don't believe he can reasonably be called out for not checking the ammo.
As a producer on the set, after the previous incidents why didn't they stop and have a safety meeting to address the other issues. That is something he does have responsibility for. He's going to have to answer for that as well.
I don’t think the law or common sense has exception carved out for real firearms with real ammunition being used as “props”.
Hopefully, this is a wake up call for these guys and they will stop living in fantasy land when there is a deadly weapon in their hand.
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HOW in the Hell can THELL REED'S DAUGHTER....NOT know guns/firearms safety inside & out?
Not implying she didnt...actually sayin the opposite. He has worked with her all her life. Are they now trying to scapegoat her?
They are grasping for straw since they have few facts.
Like the union saying cameraman were upset they had to pay their hotel bills, not really relevant.
They are grasping for straw since they have few facts.
Like the union saying cameraman were upset they had to pay their hotel bills, not really relevant.
I think them being in a vertebral altercation prior with Baldwin, the victim speaking out on behalf of the cameramen, and her advocating for them could in fact be relevant. Baldwin is known to fly off the handle and assault people.
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I wonder whether it was an actual bullet in the cartridge or if it was something foreign inside the blank like what was supposedly in the blank that killed Brandon Lee, son of Bruce Lee?
There’s a whole lot to speculate on so far most off the bits of info the media has given. What isn’t really a debate is the armorer is really young and inexperienced to be anything close to being called a veteran. Her admitting admitting that in the podcast around the time of the filming of the Cage movie won’t go well for her. No way in hell I would sign on with live gunfire without a true veteran or two in charge of gun handling.
I generally distrust unions but if what the employees who walked off the set say is true and the working conditions were bad, it won’t go well for the big shots around the movie either unless they can successfully scapegoat the “right” or wrong person as it were.
Another thought is if Baldwin was attempting not to point directly at the actor then he may have pointed at the camerawoman negligently.
I think them being in a vertebral altercation prior with Baldwin, the victim speaking out on behalf of the cameramen, and her advocating for them could in fact be relevant. Baldwin is known to fly off the handle and assault people.
Argument happen all the time on sets. Suggesting Baldwin killed her for union support is tin-foil lunacy.
What is relevant is who brought ammo on set and put it in the gun.
I believe it was confirmed by police it was “real” ammunition.
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Argument happen all the time on sets. Suggesting Baldwin killed her for union support is tin-foil lunacy.
What is relevant is who brought ammo on set and put it in the gun.
He’s threatened to kill before and assaulted people before. He’s mentally unstable. Never put anything past the mentally unstable.
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Averageman
10-23-21, 16:26
He’s threatened to kill before and assaulted people before. He’s mentally unstable. Never put anything past the mentally unstable.
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Good Point. I saw him with someone about a parking spot, he lost his mind.
Something I found interesting is several people in Baldwin’s corner are going on and on about how safe he supposedly was on the sets of all his movies since Red October. That may be the case but it only takes that one time. Especially if you’re a hothead.
I think them being in a vertebral altercation prior with Baldwin, the victim speaking out on behalf of the cameramen, and her advocating for them could in fact be relevant. Baldwin is known to fly off the handle and assault people.
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If the parties involved were in a argument prior to a shooting, that surly would be relevant. Especially if the shooter is claiming it's a accident.
We are all responsible for our actions even when we're just "acting".
Questions from non Hollywood person. Is a prop gun diff from regular gun or just on prop? And what are various prop rounds and blanks. I’ve seen / shot 556 blanks. Somebody give an explanation on how this is supposed to work. There has been some explanation but I’d like it boiled down.
PB
Questions from non Hollywood person. Is a prop gun diff from regular gun or just on prop? And what are various prop rounds and blanks. I’ve seen / shot 556 blanks. Somebody give an explanation on how this is supposed to work. There has been some explanation but I’d like it boiled down.
PB
I posted, covers it well how it's supposed to work, and was not a prop gun. Media being media morons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O6gudWsxIM&t=1s
Good Point. I saw him with someone about a parking spot, he lost his mind.
Too bad he didn't find the right person who would kick the shit out of him.
I disagree. You put any gun in my hand, it becomes my responsibility. You don’t get a pass for shooting somebody because somebody else says it’s clear.
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Well said.
Fool should have treated it as if it were loaded and real no matter what. Especially if not familiar with it - You don't point the thing at people you do not intend to destroy.
titsonritz
10-23-21, 21:14
HOW in the Hell can THELL REED'S DAUGHTER....NOT know guns/firearms safety inside & out?
Not implying she didnt...actually sayin the opposite. He has worked with her all her life. Are they now trying to scapegoat her?
They got to pin it on someone and she is as good as anyone. Can't let Alec go down for it, he was the victim here.
The “inexperienced” armorer in charge of weapons on set of Alec Baldwin’s movie “Rust” had given a gun to an 11-year-old actress without checking properly for safety, a report said.
Hannah Gutierrez Reed, 24, daughter of prominent Hollywood armorer Thell Reed, was head armorer on set in Santa Fe where Baldwin fired a prop gun loaded with a live round, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounding director Joel Souza.
Gutierrez-Reed’s alleged misstep happened on the set of the upcoming Nicholas Cage film, “The Old Way” and temporarily halted filming, sources told The Daily Beast.
‘Rust’ armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed once gave unchecked gun to 11-year-old actor: report (https://nypost.com/2021/10/23/rust-armorer-hannah-gutierrez-reed-once-gave-unchecked-gun-to-child-actor/?utm_medium=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow)
They got to pin it on someone and she is as good as anyone. Can't let Alec go down for it, he was the victim here.
The “inexperienced” armorer in charge of weapons on set of Alec Baldwin’s movie “Rust” had given a gun to an 11-year-old actress without checking properly for safety, a report said.
Hannah Gutierrez Reed, 24, daughter of prominent Hollywood armorer Thell Reed, was head armorer on set in Santa Fe where Baldwin fired a prop gun loaded with a live round, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounding director Joel Souza.
Gutierrez-Reed’s alleged misstep happened on the set of the upcoming Nicholas Cage film, “The Old Way” and temporarily halted filming, sources told The Daily Beast.
‘Rust’ armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed once gave unchecked gun to 11-year-old actor: report (https://nypost.com/2021/10/23/rust-armorer-hannah-gutierrez-reed-once-gave-unchecked-gun-to-child-actor/?utm_medium=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow)
If a live round actually made it on set, and didn't get noticed during all the safety checks, I'm kind of having trouble seeing how that couldn't have been intentional on someone's part. The fact that people were upset with their bosses and going on strike just makes that scenario even more likely. Sabotage by a disgruntled worker. Wouldn't take a sculptor to file a real bullet into the same rough shape as a blank cartridge, and nobody on the set would be looking for something like that. It's almost the perfect crime.
Voodoochild
10-23-21, 22:25
The Armorer is definitely going to go down for this. Question is who else is going down as well? From what I've read (still waiting for the actual facts) the set sounded like a complete shit show. Crew was mad that they had been lied to about housing then walked off set and got replaced by non union folks. The armorer has stated previously that she wasn't sure if she was ready for the job and got nervous about loading blanks into guns. She should have never been allowed to be in charge and should have had someone watching her and making sure things like this didn't happen.
titsonritz
10-24-21, 02:43
Man, the negligence just gets deeper and deeper. Off camera the gun was allegedly being used for target practice and live ammo and blanks were being stored in the same area. Live ammo isn't even supposed to be present on the set.
Gun That Killed DP ...ALLEGEDLY USED FOR OFF-SET TARGET PRACTICE (https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/23/alec-baldwin-rust-gun-accident-used-off-set-target-practice/)
Man, the negligence just gets deeper and deeper. Off camera the gun was allegedly being used for target practice and live ammo and blanks were being stored in the same area. Live ammo isn't even supposed to be present on the set.
Gun That Killed DP ...ALLEGEDLY USED FOR OFF-SET TARGET PRACTICE (https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/23/alec-baldwin-rust-gun-accident-used-off-set-target-practice/)
The good news is Baldwin is the Producer of this dumpster fire. And if you check the wiki page for the film you will find this boast.
He compared the screenplay to the 1992 film Unforgiven, and said it was inspired by a true story. When asked about his gun slinging and horse riding skills, he said, "They're always at the ready. I'm an actor of the old school. So if you read my resume – my motorcycle riding, my French, juggling, my horseback riding, my gunplay – is all right at my fingertips at all times."
The good news is Baldwin is the Producer of this dumpster fire. And if you check the wiki page for the film you will find this boast.
He compared the screenplay to the 1992 film Unforgiven, and said it was inspired by a true story. When asked about his gun slinging and horse riding skills, he said, "They're always at the ready. I'm an actor of the old school. So if you read my resume – my motorcycle riding, my French, juggling, my horseback riding, my gunplay – is all right at my fingertips at all times."
What a totally self absorbed, easy to despise, asswipe.
He will likely come out of this a “hero” when the spinmeisters are through with it.
Averageman
10-24-21, 08:45
He will be called a "Victim" and interviewed on The View any minute now, so he can go on TV and call guns bad.
So if I get handed a real loaded gun, point it at an innocent person and pull the trigger, as long as somebody video records it, it’s not my fault? Am I getting it right from the media now?
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Man, the negligence just gets deeper and deeper. Off camera the gun was allegedly being used for target practice and live ammo and blanks were being stored in the same area. Live ammo isn't even supposed to be present on the set.
Gun That Killed DP ...ALLEGEDLY USED FOR OFF-SET TARGET PRACTICE (https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/23/alec-baldwin-rust-gun-accident-used-off-set-target-practice/)
That came out on friday.
It was also reported the previous two "misfires" were actually discharges with live ammo.....
That came out on friday.
It was also reported the previous two "misfires" were actually discharges with live ammo.....
Just nuts. This will be a circus when the whole mess is exposed. A full clown car of idiots involved.
It's my understanding that the "bullet" or whatever killed the lady, went through her and hit the man, not penetrating him completely. Wouldn't they have that "bullet" now? Wouldn't that help determine if it was a live round or something else?
So if I get handed a real loaded gun, point it at an innocent person and pull the trigger, as long as somebody video records it, it’s not my fault? Am I getting it right from the media now?
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How do you know that wasn't the scene? They do that all the time where the shooter is pointing right at the camera. Someone earlier in the thread already posted a video showing how the cameramen have these shields to protect them from the wadding and unburnt powder.
I think the bigger question is how on earth did live ammo get on the set? And how it didn't get noticed in all the safety checks. If the rumors are true that it was actual live ammo then I would lean towards foul play, especially since the workers were apparently mad as hell. What better way to sabotage the movie and get your revenge.
Averageman
10-24-21, 12:56
Why didn't they use CGI like John Wick?
I know why, just want it conformed...
A major problem child appears to be the assistant Director Hall. It sounds like various arrows are pointing back to him for ongoing poor safety practices, and obviously the armorer failed at her primary job of controlling and accounting for those weapons at all times:
"The gun was one of three that the film's armorer, Hannah Gutierrez, had set on a cart outside the wooden structure where a scene was being acted, according to the records. Assistant director Dave Halls grabbed the gun from the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application.
Complaints had previously been made that Halls allowed unsafe practices on productions, according to a prop maker who worked with him on 2019's "Into the Dark" anthology series."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2021/10/22/alec-baldwin-prop-gun-shooting-everything-we-know/6132795001/
The more I read the more I'm sure this will come 180 and be the guns fault, and a cry for more gun control will be one result, likely lead by you know who. That's how he will absolved his conscience over this event.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211024/4b0528a9c7c806b7ddce5092759d5e8b.jpg
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It's my understanding that the "bullet" or whatever killed the lady, went through her and hit the man, not penetrating him completely. Wouldn't they have that "bullet" now? Wouldn't that help determine if it was a live round or something else?
It was known to be a live round on friday when search warrant was issued.
Why didn't they use CGI like John Wick?
I know why, just want it conformed...
possible reasons:
1) it was a low budget flick
2) maybe they planned to use CGI, but this was a rehearsal scene
It was known to be a live round on friday when search warrant was issued.
I'm dumbfounded. How on earth would movie set people, where real guns are being pointed at real people, with triggers being pulled, allow live rounds to be within 5 miles of the set? Man, how FUBAR'd can you get.!
Why didn't they use CGI like John Wick?
I know why, just want it conformed...
I don't know why. What are you thinking?
I'm dumbfounded. How on earth would movie set people, where real guns are being pointed at real people, with triggers being pulled, allow live rounds to be within 5 miles of the set? Man, how FUBAR'd can you get.!
They were talking about how they went on horseback rides on the weekends. I'm just wondering if they had a range day as recreation for the crew on weekends.
They were talking about how they went on horseback rides on the weekends. I'm just wondering if they had a range day as recreation for the crew on weekends.
Another forum, an article was posted that they were doing recreational shooting with the very gun Baldwin shot the cinematographer with.
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Another forum, an article was posted that they were doing recreational shooting with the very gun Baldwin shot the cinematographer with.
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Makes sense.
Another forum, an article was posted that they were doing recreational shooting with the very gun Baldwin shot the cinematographer with.
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That's makes it even worse. They have live ammo floating around a movie set, they're using the movie prop guns for target practice, and then the icing on the cake for all this negligence is a prop gun loaded with live ammo being used in a scene and a dead woman. I can only hope that their excuse for all this was drunkenness or something. That way they can claim diminished capacity for their foolishness.
That's makes it even worse. They have live ammo floating around a movie set, they're using the movie prop guns for target practice, and then the icing on the cake for all this negligence is a prop gun loaded with live ammo being used in a scene and a dead woman. I can only hope that their excuse for all this was drunkenness or something. That way they can claim diminished capacity for their foolishness.
They speculated that Baldwin was one of the ones using it and that it was his personally owned gun, though I haven’t seen that confirmed anywhere.
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Averageman
10-24-21, 19:16
I don't know why. What are you thinking?
I'm thinking they were way too cheap. They wanted to invest the absolute minimum while collecting the absolute maximum.
Remember this is Baldwin, he's got a credability issue shooting both a Western and a Western with guns.
This was likely being filmed to go straight to HULU or NetFlix, make some money and be forgotten.
So based on Baldwin's general behavior in the past, I would guess he was cashing in on his name and trying to repair his brand, while being a little petty dictator on the set and in person. Thus people walking off the set due to conditions.
Now lets add to that, that Baldwin was co-producer, he must have been intimatley aware of what was going on, on set.
That he knew that there was a firearms issue, yet he picked up a pistol, took someones word that it was good, then aimed and fired it at the director...
Of course the whole thing could have insurance and when shit got shakey Someone shot the Director to stop the Movie.
I'm dumbfounded. How on earth would movie set people, where real guns are being pointed at real people, with triggers being pulled, allow live rounds to be within 5 miles of the set? Man, how FUBAR'd can you get.!
Let's not forget, it wasn't that many years ago the Marine Corps had to establish the SOP that live-fire and blank-fire events could not take place on the same day.
Care to ask why?
By the way, a BFA on a M-16A2 will not stop you from killing someone if you get live 5.56 and blanks mixed up. You do not have to take my word for it, it has unfortunately been proven.
A BFA broke a leg on the range at Jackson.
It launched out as a projectiile and ricocheted on the ground like a rock on water until it hit a passerby.
It sucks...
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I'm thinking they were way too cheap. They wanted to invest the absolute minimum while collecting the absolute maximum.
Remember this is Baldwin, he's got a credability issue shooting both a Western and a Western with guns.
This was likely being filmed to go straight to HULU or NetFlix, make some money and be forgotten.
So based on Baldwin's general behavior in the past, I would guess he was cashing in on his name and trying to repair his brand, while being a little petty dictator on the set and in person. Thus people walking off the set due to conditions.
Now lets add to that, that Baldwin was co-producer, he must have been intimatley aware of what was going on, on set.
That he knew that there was a firearms issue, yet he picked up a pistol, took someones word that it was good, then aimed and fired it at the director...
Of course the whole thing could have insurance and when shit got shakey Someone shot the Director to stop the Movie.
Boy I don't know. I wonder what kind of money was at stake. Like if the movie had completely bombed and didn't make a single cent, would it have ruined him financially? Or even made a dent?
A friend was one of the union production staff and said that they literally slept in their cars with sleeping bags and using a water hose to wash up and they were working 14 to 16 hr days.
still hasn't been paid yet either.
My friend works with horses mainly and helps with various camera setups between takes while managing the horses being used.
They need to just sell their stories to the media to get money.
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The “media” probably does NOT want their stories if it puts their boy Baldwin in a bad light.
They will focus on BAD GUN.
Averageman
10-25-21, 06:09
The “media” probably does NOT want their stories if it puts their boy Baldwin in a bad light.
They will focus on BAD GUN.
Only if we let them.
Keep pressing for the truth.
A friend was one of the union production staff and said that they literally slept in their cars with sleeping bags and using a water hose to wash up and they were working 14 to 16 hr days.
still hasn't been paid yet either.
My friend works with horses mainly and helps with various camera setups between takes while managing the horses being used.
They need to just sell their stories to the media to get money.
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Sheesh. Wonder what the odds are that he's broke and this was a b list film he was financing himself with whatever he had left to try and make some quick cash??? I think that's way more common than any of us will ever know. You see these big name actors when they get older pop up in random b list movies that never make it into theaters, and you're just like wtf, why would they put their name on that garbage. Like surely their legacy is worth more than whatever they could have made from that dung pile. But I guess if they're about to repossess your mansion in Malibu maybe your standards get adjusted.
Sheesh. Wonder what the odds are that he's broke and this was a b list film he was financing himself with whatever he had left to try and make some quick cash???
One can certainly hope and it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Gabriel556
10-25-21, 09:44
He may be financially strapped, but I look at this whole movie thing as the movie theatre is dying. Let’s face it, Hollywood’s innovation hasn’t been fantastic for a while. When they are remaking Ghostbusters and old animated movies with 80% CGI “live action” it’s not surviving. Combined with theatres not surviving the pandemic, concerts are coming back but not fully, it’s also a sign that people may not be interested in spending $75 at the theatre to watch a movie they can stream in 2 months in their house.
One can certainly hope and it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Well hopefully the police won't be intimidated into doing a fake investigation. If there's insurance money coming, and the production was about to go broke, the chances of this being a freak accident are pretty low I would say. Especially when you look at who the victim was, the fact that she was standing up for the crew. Then look at who the pasty is, a pro gun person, and then you color that with the fact that Baldwin is rabidly anti gun. And such a psychopath he might even feel like all this was somehow justified.
Well hopefully the police won't be intimidated into doing a fake investigation. If there's insurance money coming, and the production was about to go broke, the chances of this being a freak accident are pretty low I would say. Especially when you look at who the victim was, the fact that she was standing up for the crew. Then look at who the pasty is, a pro gun person, and then you color that with the fact that Baldwin is rabidly anti gun. And such a psychopath he might even feel like all this was somehow justified.
He's a narcissist's narcissist and a possible sociopath, but I don't see that happening outside of TV show like CSI.
I would not be surprised at all a union member realizing how poorly organized and run the set is, added a few lives rnds when the guns were not attended if I was looking at it as intentional vs just total failures of safety protocols by all involved.
I suspect the answer will be a boring one: humans F-ing up as humans do given the right circumstances.
Business_Casual
10-25-21, 12:30
He may be financially strapped, but I look at this whole movie thing as the movie theatre is dying. Let’s face it, Hollywood’s innovation hasn’t been fantastic for a while. When they are remaking Ghostbusters and old animated movies with 80% CGI “live action” it’s not surviving. Combined with theatres not surviving the pandemic, concerts are coming back but not fully, it’s also a sign that people may not be interested in spending $75 at the theatre to watch a movie they can stream in 2 months in their house.
The guy on 30 Rock for years is broke? I don’t buy that.
Gabriel556
10-25-21, 13:23
Double tap. First One for me I think.
Gabriel556
10-25-21, 13:24
I doubt it’s hard to blow through cash. Look at Nick Cage, Lisa Marie Presley, Wesley Snipes, Mike Tyson, the list goes on…..
One thing I don’t know about with regards to other states but here in my crappy state of Illinois, any guilty charge of a misdemeanor assault makes you a prohibited person. Baldwin plead guilty of a harassment charge in New York in 2019. Would that make him prohibited from possessing firearms (even for “work”)?
He's a narcissist's narcissist and a possible sociopath, but I don't see that happening outside of TV show like CSI.
I would not be surprised at all a union member realizing how poorly organized and run the set is, added a few lives rnds when the guns were not attended if I was looking at it as intentional vs just total failures of safety protocols by all involved.
I suspect the answer will be a boring one: humans F-ing up as humans do given the right circumstances.
I mean, people have been killed for a lot less. You ever watch dateline? This would be pretty average by dateline standards. To be honest, the only exceptional aspect to it would be the fact that it involves someone famous.
But shit, Hollywood has its fair share of murder suspects. Oftentimes they get away with it because of their fame and how the police are afraid to do a proper investigation. Were this one of us, we would likely be sitting in a jail cell while they got warrants to turn our whole life upside down.
I doubt it’s hard to blow through cash. Look at Nick Cage, Lisa Marie Presley, Wesley Snipes, Mike Tyson, the list goes on…..
One thing I don’t know about with regards to other states but here in my crappy state of Illinois, any guilty charge of a misdemeanor assault makes you a prohibited person. Baldwin plead guilty of a harassment charge in New York in 2019. Would that make him prohibited from possessing firearms (even for “work”)?
I know of no exception for work. And I know for a fact that prohibited persons can't work in gun shops, at gun ranges, etc. Whether harassment makes one a prohibited person or not I don't know.
I mean, people have been killed for a lot less. You ever watch dateline? This would be pretty average by dateline standards. To be honest, the only exceptional aspect to it would be the fact that it involves someone famous.
But shit, Hollywood has its fair share of murder suspects. Oftentimes they get away with it because of their fame and how the police are afraid to do a proper investigation. Were this one of us, we would likely be sitting in a jail cell while they got warrants to turn our whole life upside down.
Sure have, but I just don't see it being a realistic scenario in this event personally. Your mileage may vary.
They'd already had NDs they day or so before, people complaining about safety and conditions, and the grand F up of them all, using the pistol (supposedly) for target practice, so live rnds co mingled with non, and on it goes. And then there's pissed off union workers...
When does he and Hollywood call for more gun control over it? That's the real Q!
Sure have, but I just don't see it being a realistic scenario in this event personally. Your mileage may vary.
They'd already had NDs they day or so before, people complaining about safety and conditions, and the grand F up of them all, using the pistol (supposedly) for target practice, so live rnds co mingled with non, and on it goes. And then there's pissed off union workers...
When does he and Hollywood call for more gun control over it? That's the real Q!
The likelihood boils down to the finances. If he was going to be financially ruined and this resulted in saving him financially, then the likelihood seems very high this wasn't an accident. And that's honestly what it's sounding like.
When it rains, it pours:
"Rust" assistant director was fired from previous movie after crew member was injured in gun incident
https://www.cnn.com/entertainment/live-news/rust-shooting-alec-baldwin-10-25-21/index.html
Averageman
10-25-21, 16:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhXlY77FkFo
So the movie is over and on the shelf...
When it rains, it pours:
"Rust" assistant director was fired from previous movie after crew member was injured in gun incident
https://www.cnn.com/entertainment/live-news/rust-shooting-alec-baldwin-10-25-21/index.html
Propaganda to muddy the waters and remove blame from Baldwin. They love Baldwin. Of course they state it “went off” and not “Baldwin pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger”.
It’s really sad how even this accident is being distorted for political reasons.
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I'm curious if it was a metallic case, or cap & ball. I assume it was a single action. Because of it being a western. I know it's morbid but I'm just wondering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhXlY77FkFo
So the movie is over and on the shelf...
Small loss.
I'm curious if it was a metallic case, or cap & ball. I assume it was a single action. Because of it being a western. I know it's morbid but I'm just wondering.
It was a centerfire.
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titsonritz
10-25-21, 19:50
Motive?
https://www.worldgreynews.com/175498/halyna-hutchins-next-project-was-documentary-on-hollywood-pedophile-rings
Well hopefully the police won't be intimidated into doing a fake investigation. If there's insurance money coming, and the production was about to go broke, the chances of this being a freak accident are pretty low I would say. Especially when you look at who the victim was, the fact that she was standing up for the crew. Then look at who the pasty is, a pro gun person, and then you color that with the fact that Baldwin is rabidly anti gun. And such a psychopath he might even feel like all this was somehow justified.
I don’t consider him a sociopath, but I’m no psychologist.
I simply consider him a super douche with a mouth larger than brain.
I know that the things I’m hearing about what went on on that set has zero in common with my 35 years of being on and around sets professionally. That includes more than a decade on a network procedural drama that regularly had firearms on set that were capable of functioning as designed.
First off: Sets are sterile environments. No exceptions. It’s not a range. Whoever brought ammo to set should be crucified.
Once guns become props used in the movie, they stay that way until they stop being used in the movie. It’s not a personally owned firearm. Live rounds don’t go in it. It’s part of the production. The same with the character’s clothes and cars in the movie. (One carve out is when we use local SWAT as SWAT in the show. Even then, our prop master checked every weapon for safe).
1 or maybe 2 people handle weapons on set. Prop master or armorer, and maybe their assistant. No one else touches them unless it’s handed to them for the purpose of rehearsal or filming. And they are removed from set in between set-ups or lighting changes, and locked up. The less people who are in the chain, the safer it is. (Trust me, they had tons of cool stuff that I wanted to fondle. But that’s at the prop house, not on set).
I can only speak to productions I’ve worked on, but this stuff is followed with Old Testament fear of God. All safety is, otherwise people get hurt. There are safety meetings about it, and not just one. Any day people do more than walk and talk, there’s a safety meeting.
Movie sets are places where things that don’t happen in ordinary life occur - people catch on fire, jump cars, fall off buildings, people point guns at each other. Or, they occur in ordinary life, but this is make believe, and everyone goes home.
The stuff I keep hearing, bit by bit, is terrifying.
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Sad about that stuff but true
Yeah would not put it past why maybe
Motive?
https://www.worldgreynews.com/175498/halyna-hutchins-next-project-was-documentary-on-hollywood-pedophile-rings
I know that the things I’m hearing about what went on on that set has zero in common with my 35 years of being on and around sets professionally. That includes more than a decade on a network procedural drama that regularly had firearms on set that were capable of functioning as designed.
First off: Sets are sterile environments. No exceptions. It’s not a range. Whoever brought ammo to set should be crucified.
Once guns become props used in the movie, they stay that way until they stop being used in the movie. It’s not a personally owned firearm. Live rounds don’t go in it. It’s part of the production. The same with the character’s clothes and cars in the movie. (One carve out is when we use local SWAT as SWAT in the show. Even then, our prop master checked every weapon for safe).
1 or maybe 2 people handle weapons on set. Prop master or armorer, and maybe their assistant. No one else touches them unless it’s handed to them for the purpose of rehearsal or filming. And they are removed from set in between set-ups or lighting changes, and locked up. The less people who are in the chain, the safer it is. (Trust me, they had tons of cool stuff that I wanted to fondle. But that’s at the prop house, not on set).
I can only speak to productions I’ve worked on, but this stuff is followed with Old Testament fear of God. All safety is, otherwise people get hurt. There are safety meetings about it, and not just one. Any day people do more than walk and talk, there’s a safety meeting.
Movie sets are places where things that don’t happen in ordinary life occur - people catch on fire, jump cars, fall off buildings, people point guns at each other. Or, they occur in ordinary life, but this is make believe, and everyone goes home.
The stuff I keep hearing, bit by bit, is terrifying.
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And that is the biggest one. It's why somebody "in charge" has to be the grown up and you can't trust actors to be responsible gun handlers. They simply aren't, they are actors. When exceptions come along they are exceptions.
So if someone hands you a revolver and asks you to shoot it, do you randomly pull the trigger, or do you open it and verify the load?
These are actors. They are supposed to point guns at each other and shoot. This isn't the range. These aren't competent shooters. If actors had to check / safe their own firearms there would be no more films.
These are actors. They are supposed to point guns at each other and shoot. This isn't the range. These aren't competent shooters. If actors had to check / safe their own firearms there would be no more films.
Not according to several actors and industry professionals. They’re saying this isn’t SOP, it’s a complete shit show.
WillieThom
10-26-21, 00:20
The likelihood boils down to the finances. If he was going to be financially ruined and this resulted in saving him financially, then the likelihood seems very high this wasn't an accident. And that's honestly what it's sounding like.
Damn, bub! You should be like…. A detective or something! I’ve never seen someone totally solve an incident by simply reading news articles and watching YouTube videos from the comfort of their own home in front of their computer! That’s gotta be a very useful skill to have…
…or is this all just speculation and tin-foil-****ery?
Motive?
https://www.worldgreynews.com/175498/halyna-hutchins-next-project-was-documentary-on-hollywood-pedophile-rings
Well ain't that some shit!:blink:
Damn, bub! You should be like…. A detective or something! I’ve never seen someone totally solve an incident by simply reading news articles and watching YouTube videos from the comfort of their own home in front of their computer! That’s gotta be a very useful skill to have…
…or is this all just speculation and tin-foil-****ery?
It's statistically very rare that someone is saved financially by just so happening to accidentally shoot someone. Lots of cases where someone shoots someone else, either by accident, or allegedly in self defense, that turn out to be murder for insurance money.
If that person was in financial trouble, and the untimely death of the person they shot led to them getting enough insurance money to save them from being ruined, that's going to get investigated. And the vast majority of the time, they end up finding conclusive proof that the person lied about how the shooting went down.
Put simply, whenever the person with the gun in their hand profits from the death of the person they shot, it's extremely rare that turns out to be an accident or self defense.
Not according to several actors and industry professionals. They’re saying this isn’t SOP, it’s a complete shit show.
And while t you have a point, props/armorer would be considered the range master. You do what they say. No more, no less.
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And that is the biggest one. It's why somebody "in charge" has to be the grown up and you can't trust actors to be responsible gun handlers. They simply aren't, they are actors. When exceptions come along they are exceptions.
Correct.
But it also doesn’t matter how competent someone is around firearms. On set you follow directions. Period. You’re Keanu? Awesome. Don’t touch that until we say to. You can check for safe when you’re told. Don’t manipulate the weapon until you’re told it’s OK to do so. You likely won’t have it in your hand for more than 1 minute before someone say action. And the prop master will literally be holding your hands while you check safe.
That for everyone. No exceptions. No one cares if you’re Jerry Mc - you do as you’re told, when you’re told, or don’t be on set. That’s the gig.
Imagine making ready on an USPSA range before being given the command. Or breaking 180. How about handling weapons on the line during cease fire?
Shit doesn’t happen randomly on a set. There’s 10’s of thousands of dollars a day at stake. It’s all choreographed, and everyone knows their job, and their responsibilities. The really nice thing about a union set is that there’s an apprentice system. You learn your job and what’s expected or you, and if you’re doing it right, you see what your boss’s job looks like.
It’s far more like working on a submarine than a factory.
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WillieThom
10-26-21, 03:36
It's statistically very rare that someone is saved financially by just so happening to accidentally shoot someone. Lots of cases where someone shoots someone else, either by accident, or allegedly in self defense, that turn out to be murder for insurance money.
If that person was in financial trouble, and the untimely death of the person they shot led to them getting enough insurance money to save them from being ruined, that's going to get investigated. And the vast majority of the time, they end up finding conclusive proof that the person lied about how the shooting went down.
Put simply, whenever the person with the gun in their hand profits from the death of the person they shot, it's extremely rare that turns out to be an accident or self defense.
So, was he in financial ruin and needed the insurance payout and so he thought it’d be a good idea to smoke someone on set, or did he decide to whack the poor broad because she was about to rat out all of his pedophile Hollywood homies, or is he just your typical narcissistic sociopath with a horrible temper and so that led him to just start blastin’ fools because why not?
No one here has a clue, because it is all speculation.
I get it… Hollywood elites and pedophiles and coverups and conspiracies and so we will never know for sure… But whatever happened to just plain old, “Let’s wait for the facts so that we can then make a proper and informed decision based on what we actually know.” What happened to that? It used to be a thing, here.
So, was he in financial ruin and needed the insurance payout and so he thought it’d be a good idea to smoke someone on set, or did he decide to whack the poor broad because she was about to rat out all of his pedophile Hollywood homies, or is he just your typical narcissistic sociopath with a horrible temper and so that led him to just start blastin’ fools because why not?
No one here has a clue, because it is all speculation.
I get it… Hollywood elites and pedophiles and coverups and conspiracies and so we will never know for sure… But whatever happened to just plain old, “Let’s wait for the facts so that we can then make a proper and informed decision based on what we actually know.” What happened to that? It used to be a thing, here.
If you're not a real crime buff then you couldn't possibly understand. It's fun to speculate when the case is fresh, before all the facts are known, because that puts you in the roll of the investigator. If you don't like speculation then I guess there's nothing left for you to do but just sign up for msm updates on your phone and wait for the facts to be published. Kind of boring.
As to your second point, yes, many if not most motives are multifaceted. Sometimes it also takes multiple people to make a murder happen, each one having his own motive. Sometimes one person can also have several motives. E.g. wife was going to leave him for his best friend, squeal to his boss he was embezzling money from the company, etc. In many cases, the person not only has to be worth more dead than alive, but also be a liability if left alive. So in that hypothetical example, if he doesn't kill her, he's going to go bankrupt, get fired, go to jail, and be exposed as a cuck to all his friends. If he does kill her, he's saved from all that, plus gets the insurance money from her death, which he can use to save himself financially and cover up the embezzlement and not go to jail. And on top of that there's the simple need for revenge because the witch cheated on him.
Put simply, most people aren't psychopaths, and even most psychopaths still find murder not only risky but distasteful. It takes extreme pressure to motivate most people, especially high IQ people, to commit murder. You have your morons who commit crimes of passion, usually while extremely intoxicated, but high IQ people who commit calculated first degree murder are normally backed against a wall and see the murder as their only way out.
vicious_cb
10-26-21, 04:48
Or just apply Occam's razor and realize they hired a dumbass 24yo female ticktok model that had no idea what she was doing much less handling weapons.
Who is Hannah Gutierrez-Reed?
Hannah Gutierrez-Reed was the head armorer on the film set for Rust.
The 24-year-old -who is the daughter of long-time film industry armorer, Thell Reed - has been named as the armorer responsible for guns on the set.
https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/10/d0348bf9-2cde-432c-9f50-9dd1c1b41fbb.jpg
Or just apply Occam's razor and realize they hired a dumbass 24yo female ticktok model that had no idea what she was doing much less handling weapons.
https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/10/d0348bf9-2cde-432c-9f50-9dd1c1b41fbb.jpg
She could be a dumbass, but that isn't known either. Her dad was one of Jeff Cooper's favorites.
If you're not a real crime buff then you couldn't possibly understand. It's fun to speculate when the case is fresh, before all the facts are known, because that puts you in the roll of the investigator. If you don't like speculation then I guess there's nothing left for you to do but just sign up for msm updates on your phone and wait for the facts to be published. Kind of boring.
As to your second point, yes, many if not most motives are multifaceted. Sometimes it also takes multiple people to make a murder happen, each one having his own motive. Sometimes one person can also have several motives. E.g. wife was going to leave him for his best friend, squeal to his boss he was embezzling money from the company, etc. In many cases, the person not only has to be worth more dead than alive, but also be a liability if left alive. So in that hypothetical example, if he doesn't kill her, he's going to go bankrupt, get fired, go to jail, and be exposed as a cuck to all his friends. If he does kill her, he's saved from all that, plus gets the insurance money from her death, which he can use to save himself financially and cover up the embezzlement and not go to jail. And on top of that there's the simple need for revenge because the witch cheated on him.
Put simply, most people aren't psychopaths, and even most psychopaths still find murder not only risky but distasteful. It takes extreme pressure to motivate most people, especially high IQ people, to commit murder. You have your morons who commit crimes of passion, usually while extremely intoxicated, but high IQ people who commit calculated first degree murder are normally backed against a wall and see the murder as their only way out.
Crime of passion, is just that. Intelligent people love & hate. Stupid people plan murder too, & smart people commit "crimes of passion" probably more frequent than low IQ people. Low IQ people are probably less passionate. But I digress. Anyone under the influence of drugs or alcohol would do things they normally wouldn't, that includes intelligent people. Our prisons are full or high IQ jackasses.
It is a interesting case though, mainly because Baldwin was so outspoken about gun control.
BTW, you ever check out; Only Murders In The Building. It's on Hulu.
You may like it, it's about crime buffs. It's not bad.
She has been on a scrubbing campaign for the last 3 days..
I mean come on now..
What does she have to hide?
[emoji849]
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Averageman
10-26-21, 06:13
She has been on a scrubbing campaign for the last 3 days..
I mean come on now..
What does she have to hide?
[emoji849]
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I have to wonder, when you hire a girl to be the armorer and she's clearly way in over her head, at what point does she learn she's a patsy?
And just like any young and inexperianced person, she attempts to cover her tracks which makes her look even more guilty...
I have to wonder, when you hire a girl to be the armorer and she's clearly way in over her head, at what point does she learn she's a patsy?
And just like any young and inexperianced person, she attempts to cover her tracks which makes her look even more guilty...When your desperate..it happens.
I an starting work as a state hospital juvenile teacher.
Nobody wanted the position because its the state nut house.
I have experience with prison schools so it's no big deal.
I have only 4 students and all of them are taking online correspondence courses and I'm just a teacher to help them if needed.
Once other substitutes found out it's just 4 kids...
Everyone wants the job now.
It could have been 30 kids and all of them are nuts but it wasn't.
My point is that for you roll the dice and take your chances.
She rolled her dice and it came out wrong.
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Averageman
10-26-21, 06:37
She rolled her dice and it came out wrong.
No, what I'm saying is, if I was going to shoot someone, she would be the armorer I would hire, perfect patsy. Easily manipulated.
No, what I'm saying is, if I was going to shoot someone, she would be the armorer I would hire, perfect patsy. Easily manipulated.Yep I agree ..considering that the cinematographer was gonna do a special on Hollywood pedophiles.
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Averageman
10-26-21, 06:54
Chat a bit, show interest in her work, become playful and attentive, then ask her if you can really shoot the guns....?
Now you've set the stage.
vicious_cb
10-26-21, 07:01
She could be a dumbass, but that isn't known either. Her dad was one of Jeff Cooper's favorites.
Nepotism, even worse.
Averageman
10-26-21, 07:18
Nepotism, even worse.
For years I was a Mechanic on Military Equipment, I've got tools in my Tool box for anything and everything.
To garner my Sons intrests, I rebuilt the lawn mower carb every year with him. He is the least mechanically inclined person I have ever met. After about three years I gave up.
Honestly I fear that someday he will have to change a tire.
Now imagine someone offering (What would appear to be) a lot of money for him to be the head mechanic on a movie set? Totally based on my skill set of course.
For years I was a Mechanic on Military Equipment, I've got tools in my Tool box for anything and everything.
To garner my Sons intrests, I rebuilt the lawn mower carb every year with him. He is the least mechanically inclined person I have ever met. After about three years I gave up.
Honestly I fear that someday he will have to change a tire.
Now imagine someone offering (What would appear to be) a lot of money for him to be the head mechanic on a movie set? Totally based on my skill set of course.
So true, my Dad and I are both very mechanically inclined - my brother is not.
It honestly seems like this production was simply an accident waiting to happen. Unfortunately the accident was fatal and took the life of a wife and mother who seems like a very interesting person.
Andy
For years I was a Mechanic on Military Equipment, I've got tools in my Tool box for anything and everything.
To garner my Sons intrests, I rebuilt the lawn mower carb every year with him. He is the least mechanically inclined person I have ever met. After about three years I gave up.
Honestly I fear that someday he will have to change a tire.
Now imagine someone offering (What would appear to be) a lot of money for him to be the head mechanic on a movie set? Totally based on my skill set of course.
I was going on the assumption she had an interest in firearms(and exposure to people who knew what they were doing) instead of just inheriting the business. Been around plenty of the latter who only seemed to have the survival skill of pitching fits when they wanted something often augmented with drunken networking with similar kids.
P2Vaircrewman
10-26-21, 08:45
Don't confuse sinister motive with human stupidity and incompetency.
So true, my Dad and I are both very mechanically inclined - my brother is not.
It honestly seems like this production was simply an accident designed to happen. Unfortunately the accident was fatal and took the life of a wife and mother who seems like a very dangerous person to certain people in Holleywood.
Andy
FIFY?
And while t you have a point, props/armorer would be considered the range master. You do what they say. No more, no less.
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In this case it seems everyone was doing what Asst. Director David Halls said. I doubt the 24 year old woman "armorer" was comfortable standing up to a 20 year veteran know for his demanding nature.
In this case it seems everyone was doing what Asst. Director David Halls said. I doubt the 24 year old woman "armorer" was comfortable standing up to a 20 year veteran know for his demanding nature.
Hey, but at least the set was inclusive! She may be the daughter of a legit gun guy, but she expressed being nervous about being ready for the job, Hall has prior complains about ignoring safety, Baldwin is famous being being an overbearing d bag, and on it goes as to a typical story of layers on layers of incremental fail that lead to a tragic ending.
My understanding is the buck stops with the head armorer on a set as it does with range master on a range, and she was not up to the task it sounds as she clearly did not have control of that set.
For years I was a Mechanic on Military Equipment, I've got tools in my Tool box for anything and everything.
To garner my Sons intrests, I rebuilt the lawn mower carb every year with him. He is the least mechanically inclined person I have ever met. After about three years I gave up.
Honestly I fear that someday he will have to change a tire.
Now imagine someone offering (What would appear to be) a lot of money for him to be the head mechanic on a movie set? Totally based on my skill set of course.
I'm fairly mechanically inclined. I can rebuild an engine or trans, brakes, whatever with good results. But you don't want me anywhere near the wiring loom. You don't even want me to wire a light switch.
Sometimes the most valuable knowledge is knowing what you don't know.
Hey, but at least the set was inclusive! She may be the daughter of a legit gun guy, but she expressed being nervous about being ready for the job, Hall has prior complains about ignoring safety, Baldwin is famous being being an overbearing d bag, and on it goes as to a typical story of layers on layers of incremental fail that lead to a tragic ending.
My understanding is the buck stops with the head armorer on a set as it does with range master on a range, and she was not up to the task it sounds as she clearly did not have control of that set.
In risk management we call this "a cascading series of failures leading to a tragic outcome". Remove one idiot or arrogant ass from the deck and the tragedy is averted.
people may not be interested in spending $75 at the theatre to watch a movie they can stream in 2 months in their house.
I've been at that for years. I get that it's a night out, it's something to do besides sit at home but I'm not spending that money to stare at a screen for 1.5hrs. I can catch it later on tv. Worst case I can live without it.
Lately I've even been questioning tv. Last night I had some weird shit happen and my TV died. I went out and bought a new one and while I'm buying it I was questioning myself do I really even want it or is it just flushing money down the toilet for the sake of habit. If I really think about it I only turn the TV on around 7pm and I'm in bed around 11. Between that there's nothing really to watch. I used to at least be able to fall back on one of the educational channels but even they're nothing but garbage. Im not interested in guys street racing or cutting down trees or looking for gold or digging a bottomless pit somewhere on a Canadian island. So it there's nothing to watch and I don't spend much time watching to begin with what am I paying for? Few hours of background noise? This was what was running through my head as I was paying for the tv
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I used to at least be able to fall back on one of the educational channels but even they're nothing but garbage. Im not interested in guys street racing or cutting down trees or looking for gold or digging a bottomless pit somewhere on a Canadian island.
Curiosity Stream or MagellanTV, if you have solid Internet access?
Curiosity Stream or MagellanTV, if you have solid Internet access?I had Curiosity Stream. It was cool but the content never changed. This was a few years ago, maybe I should look into it again
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In this case it seems everyone was doing what Asst. Director David Halls said. I doubt the 24 year old woman "armorer" was comfortable standing up to a 20 year veteran know for his demanding nature.
And like I said, that’s not how it’s supposed to work. The A.D. is in charge of the set, but that means keeping everyone on task, not doing their jobs. If your armorer sucks so bad you have to do their job, you get a new armorer. You will not have the bandwidth to make sure that weapons are safe and run a set.
An A-hole A.D.? That’s like every 3rd one you meet. Either they’re on board with the safety program, or you walk. Or call your old man, the owner of the company, and have him deal with it. He calls the producers and says it’s our way, or the highway.
The bigger issue is that she needed more experience overall. I’d wager that the family double booked shows, Thell Jr. couldn’t do the gig, and they tossed her into it. Still get the gun rentals, and she builds her resume.
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All that it took to prevent this accident was Baldwin following at least ONE of Coopers rules. That’s the only thing that had to happen.
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In risk management we call this "a cascading series of failures leading to a tragic outcome". Remove one idiot or arrogant ass from the deck and the tragedy is averted.
And if/when it's mostly d heads and incompetent people on the same project, it's not if but when something bad happens.
Averageman
10-26-21, 13:08
And like I said, that’s not how it’s supposed to work. The A.D. is in charge of the set, but that means keeping everyone on task, not doing their jobs. If your armorer sucks so bad you have to do their job, you get a new armorer. You will not have the bandwidth to make sure that weapons are safe and run a set.
You do have to understand that some people who are "Experts" are sometimes hired because they are easily manipulated and you can ride their "Expertise" right in to the ground.
An early twenties tick tock Babe? Like shooting fish in a bucket...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whOCt8vT3pk
titsonritz
10-26-21, 14:05
Maybe she was Arkancided...the Clinton connection...
The cinematographer who was shot and killed by actor Alec Baldwin with a prop gun on Thursday was married to a corporate lawyer employed by a law firm involved in defending an attorney who worked with the 2016 campaign of Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton.
Matt Hutchins, the husband of Halyna Hutchins who died shortly after she was shot by Baldwin, is employed in the Los Angeles office of Latham & Watkins, the law firm representing Michael Sussmann, who was charged in mid-September by special counsel John Durham with one count of lying to the FBI.
Husband Of Woman Killed By Alec Baldwin Is Attorney For Latham & Watkins (http://greeknewsondemand.com/2021/10/24/husband-of-woman-killed-by-alec-baldwin-is-attorney-for-latham-watkins/)
titsonritz
10-26-21, 14:05
..double tap...
In this case it seems everyone was doing what Asst. Director David Halls said. I doubt the 24 year old woman "armorer" was comfortable standing up to a 20 year veteran know for his demanding nature.
It was a low budget flick.
Article came out today about an experienced prop master who turned the job down. He wanted 5 staff including a dedicated weapon handler. They told him, no 2 staff at most. He turned it down. 3 days later Reed was hired as an asst propmaster with weapon duties also.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-26-21, 15:31
All that it took to prevent this accident was Baldwin following at least ONE of Coopers rules. That’s the only thing that had to happen.
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I don’t disagree, but when it a movie prop a movie prop and not a gun? The problem I have is the disconnect between it being a gun and the fake reality of the movie set. A 1880s western character following the 4 rules will look really odd. Never being able to point a gun at another character?
We are gun guys, we get it. When we get close to breaking one of the rules we probably feel it the back of our head as a buzzing. But this isn’t a range, this was on a movie set.
I get that using real guns and blanks is probably the cheapest way to make the movie. But maybe the answer is that you outlaw real firearms on movie sets. Of all the crap that OSHA goes ape over, that they allow this is kind of nutty. It’s like lock-out/tag-out roulette.
I don’t disagree, but when it a movie prop a movie prop and not a gun? The problem I have is the disconnect between it being a gun and the fake reality of the movie set. A 1880s western character following the 4 rules will look really odd. Never being able to point a gun at another character?
We are gun guys, we get it. When we get close to breaking one of the rules we probably feel it the back of our head as a buzzing. But this isn’t a range, this was on a movie set.
I get that using real guns and blanks is probably the cheapest way to make the movie. But maybe the answer is that you outlaw real firearms on movie sets. Of all the crap that OSHA goes ape over, that they allow this is kind of nutty. It’s like lock-out/tag-out roulette.
That's what Brandon Lee's fiancée is suggesting. I'm not sure I agree, but industry standards for firearms handling on set weren't even remotely followed here. Hmm, now that I think of it, that's kinda like criminals not following the law... :confused:
Don't confuse sinister motive with human stupidity and incompetency.
Could be. Just a not so insignificant percentage of anti-gunners want to do things to others that they think will get them shot in the face if others are armed.
titsonritz
10-26-21, 16:07
That's what Brandon Lee's fiancée is suggesting. I'm not sure I agree, but industry standards for firearms handling on set weren't even remotely followed here. Hmm, now that I think of it, that's kinda like criminals not following the law... :confused:
John Wayne managed to film over 170 movies, many of them westerns without killing anyone, just saying.
That's what Brandon Lee's fiancée is suggesting. I'm not sure I agree, but industry standards for firearms handling on set weren't even remotely followed here. Hmm, now that I think of it, that's kinda like criminals not following the law... :confused:
And of course actors, stunt people, etc get injured, some times seriously and even die, from all manner of things on a set, some times because a scene simply does not go as planned, but usually due to a breakdown in safety protocols some place. It's viewed as a tragedy, often produces a good look at what the safety protocols are and how they can be improved, and end of the day, viewed as the cost of making movies. I was listening the list of injuries Craig has suffered while being Bond, and one reason he's quitting his he said his body can't handle the injuries. Give some of them credit, they want to be as in the middle of their own stunts and the action as they can be.
If they can replace something potentially dangerous with something not, and get the same effects, might as well do it. Apparently, many movies use CGI for gun fire now.
titsonritz
10-26-21, 16:18
And of course actors, stunt people, etc get injured, some times seriously and even die, from all manner of things on a set, some times because a scene simply does not go as planned, but usually due to a breakdown in safety protocols some place. It's viewed as a tragedy, often produces a good look at what the safety protocols are and how they can be improved, and end of the day, viewed as the cost of making movies. I was listening the list of injuries Craig has suffered while being Bond, and one reason he's quitting his he said his body can't handle the injuries. Give some of them credit, they want to be as in the middle of their own stunts and the action as they can be.
If they can replace something potentially dangerous with something not, and get the same effects, might as well do it. Apparently, many movies use CGI for gun fire now.
Can't all be Rambo.
Sylvester Stallone Broke Neck Filming 'The Expendables' (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sylvester-stallone-broke-_n_412901)
I dislike Baldwin's politics and personality. I think he's good in some of the roles hes been in, as an actor. I hold zero accountability over him as the one who pulled the trigger, as an actor on a movie set. As a producer responsible for budgets and safety, thats a different story. This is not a mystery or a whodunnit. Some one brought LIVE AMMO onto a movie set to shoot at cans. We don't need to hem and haw over the gun safety rules, or his failure to check the chamber...he's an actor. There are people (usually multiple) responsible for gun safety and safe gun handling. They failed, miserably. I don't blame a non gun person for not knowing or not following basic gun safety. They are supposed to be handed a safe prop before a scene, and have it taken away after. The fact its a gun makes all us gun people chortle, but if it was a prop knife accidentally replaced with a real knife the fault is with the prop master, not the actor.
The handwringing and speculation and "how could this have happened" is just media being media. Its the failure to hold a responsible person accountable, and pass the blame to an inanimate object. If it was a squib primer, or dangerous blank....sure, lets make sure that never happens again. Some asshole brought live rounds to a set with a real gun to goof off.... we already know that's a bad idea, and criminally negligent.
You do have to understand that some people who are "Experts" are sometimes hired because they are easily manipulated and you can ride their "Expertise" right in to the ground.
An early twenties tick tock Babe? Like shooting fish in a bucket...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whOCt8vT3pk
Movie sets are like no other workplace you’ve ever seen. It’s a different animal. It’s 30-40 people applying manual labor to problem solve on the fly for 45 minutes at a time, all while keeping to the technical specs that allow camera, sound, and special effects to succeed so that post production can get the movie made. And that’s while shooting scenes. There’s upwards of another 100 people doing prep work to support the filming.
Hiring someone just to run over them? It’s not how this works. These are department heads. Think Shop Steward. And on a union show, they’re part of different locals. The armorer would answer to the prop master. The AD doesn’t tell other people how to run their department. He acts like a tyrant until things get done, maybe. Talks to the producers about bringing someone different in.
They hired who they could get. Personally, I’d charge a lot to go on location for 3 months in New Mexico. More experienced people who saw the schedule and read the script turned it down.
I’m more inclined to think that this was a case of the AD not being good at his job and feeling pressured to go faster than was safe (likely because of an unrealistic schedule and a director who wasn’t making his days).
It doesn’t have to be that way. I was just helping some friends on a non-Union, low-budget show (code words for nightmare), and the entire thing was a joke. Except for weapons. You could see the armorer come in and hand the weapon to the actor, and after someone called cut, he ran back in and took control of the weapon. As it should be.
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Averageman
10-26-21, 18:03
I would imagine that it's exciting and everything, bust honestly, none of what you said sounds like anything that went on.
This sound like someone was trying to do this as cheaply as possible and whenever the Armorer looked like She was way in over her head, they needed to find someone new. Honestly, it sounds like it was being patched together right before it all fell apart.
It seems to me that after this shooting on a set (IMO should have happened after Brandon) that actors, whether they hate guns or not, should really familiarize themselves in a most extensive manner with the guns they will be using to the point they can challenge the armorer on how safe the gun is just handed to them. If it was me, I'd check the gun out myself for safety before I pointed it at someone and got on the trigger. When someone hands me a gun I always make sure the gun is unloaded before I start doing things with it...I've been handed loaded guns a time or two, and the person handing me the gun never mentioned it was loaded.
I disagree, that's like asking them to familiarize themselves intimately with every prop. To gun people like us, yeah it's a big deal. To other people it's just a tool a toy or a prop. If you put Tom Cruise in a f-14 cockpit and he accidentally launches a missile, I don't blame Tom Cruise for messing around with the joystick I blame whoever didn't safe that plane.
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I disagree, that's like asking them to familiarize themselves intimately with every prop. To gun people like us, yeah it's a big deal. To other people it's just a tool a toy or a prop. If you put Tom Cruise in a f-14 cockpit and he accidentally launches a missile, I don't blame Tom Cruise for messing around with the joystick I blame whoever didn't safe that plane.
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In this particular case, after a deadly shooting, I think it prudent. The gun is in your hand and you are trusting someone else to have done the right thing. After Baldwin's situation, I wouldn't trust anyone to do the right thing. With an F-14, I would go over as much of the safety protocols as possible before I climbed in the cockpit. Where you can do something about safety, you should. I wouldn't try and go over the safety, let's say, of a commercial airliner, where you just have yo pay your money and take your chances. I'd say actors and guns are different, especially after this FUBAR.
Averageman
10-26-21, 18:49
I disagree, that's like asking them to familiarize themselves intimately with every prop. To gun people like us, yeah it's a big deal. To other people it's just a tool a toy or a prop. If you put Tom Cruise in a f-14 cockpit and he accidentally launches a missile, I don't blame Tom Cruise for messing around with the joystick I blame whoever didn't safe that plane.
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I'm thinking checking the cylinder of a revolver is almost as difficult as an E-mail..
It's not voo-doo, your not changing plugs and points here, your safing a gun.
Stupid simple and if you're going to do the job, it's best to learn more than you need too.
Averageman
10-26-21, 18:56
Just don't learn anything about guns that way, well, it's not your fault when you screw it up and shoot someone.
Or you can say, "To better my abilities and remain safe, well, I learn gun safety to make Action Movies.".
How crazy is that?
In this particular case, after a deadly shooting, I think it prudent. The gun is in your hand and you are trusting someone else to have done the right thing. After Baldwin's situation, I wouldn't trust anyone to do the right thing. With an F-14, I would go over as much of the safety protocols as possible before I climbed in the cockpit. Where you can do something about safety, you should. I wouldn't try and go over the safety, let's say, of a commercial airliner, where you just have yo pay your money and take your chances. I'd say actors and guns are different, especially after this FUBAR.
I’d suggest the easiest way to see this become SOP would be to charge and convict Baldwin of Neg. Homicide.
Averageman
10-26-21, 19:00
I’d suggest the easiest way to see this become SOP would be to charge and convict Baldwin of Neg. Homicide.
I'm good with it.
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