View Full Version : BNVD Photonis Echo spec WP versus BNVD Elbit XLS WP
Had a rare chance to compare two of these units almost identical in specifications.
I wrote down the key metrics for these units on a piece of paper so no one would freak out about Itar if I posted the spec sheets. They were very close with Ebi being the only thing with some difference between the two.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/92237/IMG_0280-2142826.jpg
The Echo spec unit has no manual gain control- what others call "auto" gain which is actually no gain control.
https://www.jrhenterprises.com/BNVD-no-gain-with-Photonis-Echo-spec-WHITE-PHOSPHOR-EchoBNVDWHITEPHOS.htm
The BNVD with the Elbit XLS tubes has manual gain control and it was set high for this test to be close to what the no gain set was.
https://www.jrhenterprises.com/BNVD-Single-Gain-3rd-Gen-XLS-WHITE-PHOSPHOR-Night-Vision-bino-XLSWPBNVD.htm
Conditions-
We went to our range in the Georgia swamps October 24th at 7:30 pm. Conditions were overcast, moon was not up yet, wasn't a lot of light IMO.
First pic was taken of a person standing out in the open approximately 50 yards from the camera. Camera man was standing in the open also.
First up- BNVD SG with XLS WP tubes
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/92237/IMG_0301-2142832.jpg
Next- BNVD with Echo spec WP tubes
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/92237/IMG_0289-2142833.jpg
Then we went a little bit farther into the woods there and just in the 5-10 minutes since the first set of pics were taken, lighting conditions seemed to have worsened. Also the folks that have attended training at our range will attest that this area is very thick with tree cover, further cutting down on lighting conditions.
In the woods, approximately 30 yards, standing semi out of concealment
First- BNVD SG with XLS WP tubes-
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/92237/IMG_0285-2142835.jpg
Next BNVD with Photonis Echo spec WP tubes-
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/92237/IMG_0295-2142836.jpg
Once again, while the specifications on these two units was close, the XLS tube was a good bit better on Ebi than the Echo.
You have access to the 4G INTENS, as well? Comparo?
You have access to the 4G INTENS, as well? Comparo?
We don't have an INTENS in stock no. The INTENS with similar specs would wipe the floor with the XLS grade however.
When we do comparisons, we do them the correct way- two units of different types that have SIMILAR SPECIFICATIONS. This way the comparison is accurate. Usually you see comparisons that are like "here is my 37 SN Elbit WHP compared to my 29 SN Echo" which isn't very similar- more like comparing a 4 cylinder truck to a V8.
So basically I try to go over units that arrive and I get excited when I find something with specs similar to what I already have in my personal gear- cause that means a realistic comparison can then be done.
The INTENS tubes are available in the BNVD format, it's a good jump up in price however.
You have access to the 4G INTENS, as well? Comparo?
We don't have an INTENS in stock no. The INTENS with similar specs would wipe the floor with the XLS grade however.
When we do comparisons, we do them the correct way- two units of different types that have SIMILAR SPECIFICATIONS. This way the comparison is accurate. Usually you see comparisons that are like "here is my 37 SN Elbit WHP compared to my 29 SN Echo" which isn't very similar- more like comparing a 4 cylinder truck to a V8.
So basically I try to go over units that arrive and I get excited when I find something with specs similar to what I already have in my personal gear- cause that means a realistic comparison can then be done.
The INTENS tubes are available in the BNVD format, it's a good jump up in price however.
We don't have an INTENS in stock no. The INTENS with similar specs would wipe the floor with the XLS grade however.
When we do comparisons, we do them the correct way- two units of different types that have SIMILAR SPECIFICATIONS. This way the comparison is accurate. Usually you see comparisons that are like "here is my 37 SN Elbit WHP compared to my 29 SN Echo" which isn't very similar- more like comparing a 4 cylinder truck to a V8.
So basically I try to go over units that arrive and I get excited when I find something with specs similar to what I already have in my personal gear- cause that means a realistic comparison can then be done.
The INTENS tubes are available in the BNVD format, it's a good jump up in price however.
How do you like the INTENS vs. the L3 Filmless, and what kind of cosmetics as well as specs are you seeing from the INTENS? Out of curiosity, what would INTENS BNVD's (SG or not?) run, and what kind of wait time would that be?
We sell 100 to 1 of the Echo spec to the INTENS.
Intens are in general very clean tubes, and honestly the Echos are very close to that.
I sold my L3 filmless personal BNVD a few years back. I did not see the $2K plus difference in price between that and a high spec Elbit WHP and I damn sure wasn't happy with how quickly the L3 tubes sucked power- I was changing batteries twice a night at classes while my son was running the same model with Elbit WHP tubes and wasn't changing batteries.
We sell 100 to 1 of the Echo spec to the INTENS.
Intens are in general very clean tubes, and honestly the Echos are very close to that.
I sold my L3 filmless personal BNVD a few years back. I did not see the $2K plus difference in price between that and a high spec Elbit WHP and I damn sure wasn't happy with how quickly the L3 tubes sucked power- I was changing batteries twice a night at classes while my son was running the same model with Elbit WHP tubes and wasn't changing batteries.
Interesting. I have a PVS14, L3 filmless. I have not compared it side by side to anything else, but have used XLS MOD3 before, and greatly preferred the L3 filmless, but since it was on a different night, it's a pretty bad comparison. I have not noticed any battery issues really, but I don't use it as much as you use yours, by a long shot. From what I understand, the INTENS are actually different from ECHO, and not just "ECHO's with really good specs", right?
Well this was in a dual tube set.
The Photonis tubes are graded just as Elbit and L3/Harris does.
Echo is their mid grade and Intens are their top graded tubes. Other than that no differences. We hashed this out with three Photonis VPs a few years ago at Shot show after another vendor made some crazy claims about Echos online that wasn't true.
Basically if a tube doesn't make the cut for the higher grade- either more blemishes than allowed in the better grade, lower specification numbers, etc. then they are put in the lower category.
Same as Elbit tubes that aren't good enough for SLH or VH drop down into the XLS grade. Some people call these "fallout" tubes, i.e, they fell out of the better categories.
Well this was in a dual tube set.
The Photonis tubes are graded just as Elbit and L3/Harris does.
Echo is their mid grade and Intens are their top graded tubes. Other than that no differences. We hashed this out with three Photonis VPs a few years ago at Shot show after another vendor made some crazy claims about Echos online that wasn't true.
Basically if a tube doesn't make the cut for the higher grade- either more blemishes than allowed in the better grade, lower specification numbers, etc. then they are put in the lower category.
Same as Elbit tubes that aren't good enough for SLH or VH drop down into the XLS grade. Some people call these "fallout" tubes, i.e, they fell out of the better categories.
I'm tracking. I had thought they had physical/actual differences between the two, not just XLS/YH type differences. The INTENS has 30% more gain, and I figured that meant something was done different, not just a Gucci speccing ECHO.
Long read, but this explains it all pretty well.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/Further-clarification-on-Photonis-ECHO-spec-tubes-questions-answered-by-Photonis/716-291381/
With questions answered by Photonis VPs.
Just saw that you added this-
Out of curiosity, what would INTENS BNVD's (SG or not?) run, and what kind of wait time would that be?
We just had a set of BNVD with INTENS WP ship out in less than a week after ordering. So really quickly right now compared to 30+ week lead times. About $7800. so almost $5K less than L3 tubes in the same platform.
Just saw that you added this-
We just had a set of BNVD with INTENS WP ship out in less than a week after ordering. So really quickly right now compared to 30+ week lead times. About $7800. so almost $5K less than L3 tubes in the same platform.
That sounds legit tempting. Do you build this in house? Is it variable gain or autogain? If auto gain, is it clipped with a reaistor, or what? I found a YT of the Intens vs L3, and it isnt bad!
That sounds legit tempting. Do you build this in house? Is it variable gain or autogain? If auto gain, is it clipped with a reaistor, or what? I found a YT of the Intens vs L3, and it isnt bad!
I think we talked on Arf also.
All of our dual tube sets are manufactured by NVD. The #3 in size/sales NV company right behind Elbit and L3 Harris. They are the originator of the 10 year NV warranty. ISO9001 certified manufacturer with 30 years in business.
The BNVDs that offer the Photonis tubes- Echo or the better INTENS all are autogain. Single gain control is available in the Elbit system and L3 tubes in the BNVDs, but not in the Photonis.
I think we talked on Arf also.
All of our dual tube sets are manufactured by NVD. The #3 in size/sales NV company right behind Elbit and L3 Harris. They are the originator of the 10 year NV warranty. ISO9001 certified manufacturer with 30 years in business.
The BNVDs that offer the Photonis tubes- Echo or the better INTENS all are autogain. Single gain control is available in the Elbit system and L3 tubes in the BNVDs, but not in the Photonis.
We likely did speak on ARF. I am still waffling on keeping my PVS14 which is phenomenal (L3 filmless with flawless cosmetics and excellent specs), or going with duals. Some mornings I wake up feeling rich and want to sell the -14 and do it, and other mornings I wish I hadn't eaten out 10 years ago because I coulda used that $30! Your BNVD's are a very attractive price point, I am just wondering if I'd miss my L3 filmless vs the INTENS, as it gets VERY dark where I live, and If eel like my L3 Filmless is "lacking" at times (35.7snr, 0.5 ebi, 2531 photocathode response).
We likely did speak on ARF. I am still waffling on keeping my PVS14 which is phenomenal (L3 filmless with flawless cosmetics and excellent specs), or going with duals. Some mornings I wake up feeling rich and want to sell the -14 and do it, and other mornings I wish I hadn't eaten out 10 years ago because I coulda used that $30! Your BNVD's are a very attractive price point, I am just wondering if I'd miss my L3 filmless vs the INTENS, as it gets VERY dark where I live, and If eel like my L3 Filmless is "lacking" at times (35.7snr, 0.5 ebi, 2531 photocathode response).
Well truth be told, you can do everything you need to do with a PVS14- shoot, drive, navigate, etc. Anyone who tells you that you can't drive with a single tube is full of crap.
That being said, things do get easier with dual tubes.
But for guys like you that get out and actually do stuff with your NV, a 14 is definitely NOT a compromise.
Well truth be told, you can do everything you need to do with a PVS14- shoot, drive, navigate, etc. Anyone who tells you that you can't drive with a single tube is full of crap.
That being said, things do get easier with dual tubes.
But for guys like you that get out and actually do stuff with your NV, a 14 is definitely NOT a compromise.
This is probably dumb AF, but the thing MOST motivating me to want duals, is because I run my 14 over my dominant eye, and that has the battery compartment/power supply hanging below the tube. It cuts down in clearance. I am probably overly worried about this sort of thing, but I fear if it gets tapped/bonked during recoil it could cause a problem. Duals do not have this physiology.
Picture of how I do, for reference (Yes, a 12ga under the noodle is odd, I own this fact).
66712
*click to bigify
This is probably dumb AF, but the thing MOST motivating me to want duals, is because I run my 14 over my dominant eye, and that has the battery compartment/power supply hanging below the tube. It cuts down in clearance. I am probably overly worried about this sort of thing, but I fear if it gets tapped/bonked during recoil it could cause a problem. Duals do not have this physiology.
Picture of how I do, for reference (Yes, a 12ga under the noodle is odd, I own this fact).
66712
*click to bigify
Have you tried a higher riser on your optic? Looks like your "turkey necking" a bit. If you had a riser (which will help with passive aiming) you may find you turkey neck less and it brings it out of the way more.
That being said, a little smack here and there shouldn't hurt a 14. Disconcerting yes...
Have you tried a higher riser on your optic? Looks like your "turkey necking" a bit. If you had a riser (which will help with passive aiming) you may find you turkey neck less and it brings it out of the way more.
That being said, a little smack here and there shouldn't hurt a 14. Disconcerting yes...
Some, yes, but I also shoot it during the day, and this is a compromise. I have thus far not noted any pvs14/stock interaction, but I wonder if a bump now and then would harm it, and it seems the answer might be that I need to stop worrying.
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