View Full Version : Stainless barrel; yay or nay?
TacticalSpeed
10-27-21, 19:16
I don't have anything with a stainless barrel so I want to do one of my next AR builds (Either 16" barrel rifle or 7.5"/8" pistol barrel).
Pros & cons to a stainless barrel? Should I lean to using the stainless barrel on 1 build more than the other?
Both will likely just be a range toy.
Their advantage is accuracy. Unless you’re doing a build for accuracy/precision, no point. A chrome lined barrel will hold up better.
^^^
I run SS on a couple “precision” ARs, where strings of fire are sedate.
Mag dumps and sustained fire are Chrome or Nitride.
I deliberately abused a SS barrel, getting it so hot it turned brown. I find no reason to not use a SS barrel, if you want one.
Lots of discussion out on the interwebs over this one. I did a deep dive awhile back. Ultimately what I determined is it just doesn't matter unless you are talking about sustained full auto. Then a chrome lined barrel will hold up better. Fore the rest of us, get whatever you like.
TacticalSpeed
10-28-21, 11:08
Lots of discussion out on the interwebs over this one. I did a deep dive awhile back. Ultimately what I determined is it just doesn't matter unless you are talking about sustained full auto. Then a chrome lined barrel will hold up better. Fore the rest of us, get whatever you like.
Excellent :D
I feel the lines have closed in on each technology. CL barrels shoot increasingly better, and SS barrels hold up better than most anticipate. So few people actually shoot out their barrels vs the volume of barrels bought ( take out the military) so if you want to pinch every bit of accuracy, I have no issue on trying a SS barrel.
Even though many CL barrels will shoot just as well as SS. Again buy what tickles your fancy.
PB
Their advantage is accuracy. Unless you’re doing a build for accuracy/precision, no point. A chrome lined barrel will hold up better.
One steel or the other doesn't make a more accurate barrel. Have you heard of Bartlein Barrels? Quoted from his FAQs page >>
Which steel is better?
"For the most part neither from what we see. If we had to pick one we would lean towards the C.M. possibly lasting longer but how long a barrel last is subject to all the variables involved. Such as the type of powder being used, how it is being shot and cleaned and the types of bullets being shot through it etc"
It matters more the other features of the barrel and the manufacturing that went into it.
One steel or the other doesn't make a more accurate barrel. Have you heard of Bartlein Barrels? Quoted from his FAQs page >>
Which steel is better?
"For the most part neither from what we see. If we had to pick one we would lean towards the C.M. possibly lasting longer but how long a barrel last is subject to all the variables involved. Such as the type of powder being used, how it is being shot and cleaned and the types of bullets being shot through it etc"
Right. It’s not more accurate because it’s stainless, it’s because it’s not chrome lined.
^^^ as above. (Forget to refresh.)
4150 CMV is the ordinance steel that best handles heat and thermal erosion at the throat and gas port.
416 stainless can be more accurate and is usually used for precision rifles but has 1/2 the service life of 4150 CMV. Also when stainless barrels begin to show signs of reaching the end of its service life the accuracy opens up significantly more than 4150.
Per SOLGW Armorer course via T&E
Right. It’s not more accurate because it’s stainless, it’s because it’s not chrome lined.
Why would you say that? There are plenty of shitty SS barrels out there. Being SS has nothing to do with being a good barrel as bp7178 eluded to. There are some good chromed barrels but I wouldn't consider them precision grade.
It might be easier to make a stainless barrel more precisely, but that certainly doesn't mean that all stainless barrels are of good quality. The inverse is also true about chrome lined 4150. Criterion, as well as a few other manufacturers have the process down pretty well, but not at the level of a truly match grade tube.
Buy whatever you want, it's unlikely you'll wear it out unless you abuse it. Having said that, I wouldn't consider a stainless barrel for a pistol or SBR, since I'm not going to use those in a precision role.
Why would you say that? There are plenty of shitty SS barrels out there. Being SS has nothing to do with being a good barrel as bp7178 eluded to. There are some good chromed barrels but I wouldn't consider them precision grade.
Well generally, stainless AR barrels are marketed towards accuracy.
MOST AR barrels are junk regardless of construction.
Well generally, stainless AR barrels are marketed towards accuracy.
MOST AR barrels are junk regardless of construction.
"Marketed" being the key word here!
indianalex01
10-28-21, 20:08
Well generally, stainless AR barrels are marketed towards accuracy.
MOST AR barrels are junk regardless of construction.
A good Chrome lined barrel is plenty accurate. DD, Colt, FN are just a few. I have a Wilson SS barrel that shoots lights out. All things being equal and quality vs quality then a SS will probably be more accurate but a CL barrel for sustained fire. 2 different applications
Just another thought, I have an FN SPR 308 barrel that shoots sub moa and at times a bug hole gun. Gotta be good for 10,000 PLUS rounds, maybe 20,000 of slow fire 308 who knows. I never figured out why more military units did not use more CL barrels they way they shoot barrels out.
I just love love love my FN SPR. Its a beast.
PB
indianalex01
10-28-21, 21:18
Just another thought, I have an FN SPR 308 barrel that shoots sub moa and at times a bug hole gun. Gotta be good for 10,000 PLUS rounds, maybe 20,000 of slow fire 308 who knows. I never figured out why more military units did not use more CL barrels they way they shoot barrels out.
I just love love love my FN SPR. Its a beast.
PB
I have 2 FN SPR’s and understand what you are saying. Mine are solid. The M24 SWS (Remy 700)sniper rifle is a little better maintenance wise over Win Mod 70 gun. Simpler. Chromelined can be very accurate if done right FN does know how to. The SPR was didn’t sell as well as FN would’ve liked.
I have a BCM SS barrel with about 2300 on it. First 1200 rounds was scoped off a bench with no much in the way of rapid fire. For the last 1100 rounds, it's worn a red dot and been tortured with all manner of drills. Many days of repetitive bill drills, trying to go quicker. Recently I have been thinking of scrubbing all the copper out to see if it can still shoot in the .5-.7 MOA range it used to shoot at.
Indiana, its shocking they didnt sell more. I bought mine at a fire sale at SGC for $1,000. Hell the stock was worth $600 at the time, I inspected the shit out of that gun before I bought it. But it was true blue FN SPR and says it on the barrel. Others did not say it.
Vegas, I bet you clean it and it still shoots sub moa. I would also try before you clean. And I wouldn't ultra clean it, id just clean it and keep the benefit of it being broken in a bit.
PB
CL, nitride and stainless all have their respective benefits and deficiencies.
The benefit of stainless is potential for better accuracy. However, unless the barrel is drilled, rifled and finished to match grade quality, the potential benefit is illusion. But, a custom match/benchrest barrel maker like Kreiger, Bartlein or Lilja will produce their best barrels from 416 stainless because it is easier to machine to tighter, more uniform tolerances. Those barrels are not sub MOA, they are sub 1/2 MOA, some even sub 1/4 MOA capable.
Even so, that potential is heavily ammo dependent. No match grade barrel even from one of those benchrest quality barrel makers, is going to shoot bulk ammo or M193 or M855 any better than 2.5 MOA or so. Match ammo, especially custom handloads with match components (think Berger bullets, Lapua cases, benchrest prepped, match primers, laddered powder charges, optimized seating depth) can produce amazing results from such barrels.
I am fortunate to have a Lilja M4 Navy 16" Wylde chamber, 1:8 twist barrel. This is the same barrel made for NSWC Crane for the SEAL Recce. It will shoot Berger flat base 52 target bullets into the 4's (.4" at 100 yards) with boring regularity, sometimes into the 3s. Stainless is just the metal. Those blanks are drilled and rifled to .0002" straight from leade to muzzle, and hand lapped. It's the precision and skill of the barrel maker that makes this possible.
If 1 MOA or close to it is good enough with good commercial ammo is a reasonable objective, most rack grade barrels from name brand companies will get you there these days.
Unless you're doing bench or something, I can't see any real world advantage. Chrome lined barrels have gotten so good in the last few decades. At a bare minimum, you're going to have to be using match grade ammunition, or even handloads, to appreciate the difference.
Also keep in mind that not all stainless barrels are created equal. You can get cheap ones for like a hundred bucks or something, and obviously that's not going to benefit you anything. Might as well just go CMV for the durability.
That's another thing about stainless. You have to handle them with kid gloves because the metals have lower working temperatures. They shoot out much faster, especially considering what kind of groups people need them to hold to keep their edge over chrome, and you have to shoot slower and always be worried about how hot they're getting.
judgecrater
10-30-21, 10:37
Their advantage is accuracy. Unless you’re doing a build for accuracy/precision, no point. A chrome lined barrel will hold up better.
Chrome lined is more durable and resists neglect. Long ago the chrome lining was inconsistent and had accuracy problems. I am guessing they are much better these days.
Once you have determined the intended purpose or specific use for your rifle build the next step is barrel selection.
Are you talking duty grade, precision, or general purpose?
Most duty grade barrels are 4150 CMV due to increased service life because 4150 CMV properties handle extreme heat better than 416 R.
That said most civilian shooters are not shooting sustained high rates of fire to reach reach the extreme temperatures so the service life factor may be a moot point.
Vegas, I bet you clean it and it still shoots sub moa. I would also try before you clean. And I wouldn't ultra clean it, id just clean it and keep the benefit of it being broken in a bit.
PB
I’ll probably give that a try for science purposes [emoji4] I would not be surprised if it was still sub moa. Will be interesting to see what the cleaning does.
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Unless you're doing bench or something, I can't see any real world advantage. Chrome lined barrels have gotten so good in the last few decades. At a bare minimum, you're going to have to be using match grade ammunition, or even handloads, to appreciate the difference.
Also keep in mind that not all stainless barrels are created equal. You can get cheap ones for like a hundred bucks or something, and obviously that's not going to benefit you anything. Might as well just go CMV for the durability.
That's another thing about stainless. You have to handle them with kid gloves because the metals have lower working temperatures. They shoot out much faster, especially considering what kind of groups people need them to hold to keep their edge over chrome, and you have to shoot slower and always be worried about how hot they're getting.
How many match grade SS barrels do you own in 5.56 / .223?
Cause I can't agree with about half of what you said above.
Once you have determined the intended purpose or specific use for your rifle build the next step is barrel selection.
Are you talking duty grade, precision, or general purpose?
Most duty grade barrels are 4150 CMV due to increased service life because 4150 CMV properties handle extreme heat better than 416 R.
That said most civilian shooters are not shooting sustained high rates of fire to reach reach the extreme temperatures so the service life factor may be a moot point.
This + How many super skinny SS AR type barrels does one generally see? Takes a lot longer to heat up a heavy barrel...
More than a few times over the years Colt has offered AR barrels that were without a chrome lined bore. Same steel they used in their lined barrels but less the chrome... They had a reason for doing so. :)
Chrome lined is more durable and resists neglect. Long ago the chrome lining was inconsistent and had accuracy problems. I am guessing they are much better these days.
Drastic improvements have been made for sure. A guy a while back did a pretty large scale test with M4A1 barrels showing very impressive results. Real world, not much difference anymore. For non precision shooting, probably none. That is, if you're not shooting from a bipod with a scope, and taking very precise shots.
This + How many super skinny SS AR type barrels does one generally see? Takes a lot longer to heat up a heavy barrel...
It takes more heat to bring a heavy barrel up to the same temperature as a light barrel. It's like filling a large bucket with water and a smaller bucket of water. It takes more water to fill a 10 gallon bucket than it does a 5 gallon bucket.
Stainless steel barrels and CMV barrels hold their precision differently. Years ago, I read an article that a CMV barrel will initially be more precise than a SS barrel, but the SS barrel holds it's precision longer.
As a CMV barrel is used, the throat wears slowly and groups gradually open up until it reaches a point it's no longer precise enough for the job. But the barrel can be pulled and used on, say a training AR where 2 MOA is acceptable.
On the other hand, SS barrels work harden and retain their precision. Groups stay the same size- until chunks of rifling break away at the throat. When that happens, the SS barrel loses precision suddenly and are done.
Another difference is the CMV barrel can be cut at the chamber end and rechambered & throated, or used on another rifle where such precision isn't needed. The SS barrel must be rechambered & throated.
Northridge
10-30-21, 22:59
After going down this same road twice myself, I am sticking with quality CHF CL barrels from reputable manufacturers.
For me it comes down to an evolution in the type of shooting I do.
SS barrels derive much of their accuracy and consistency from heavier barrel profiles which result in high barrel stiffness at the expense of increased weight.
After years of shooting mostly for groups sitting at a bench, I have spent the last few years shooting off hand in training scenarios with infrequent need for precision shots at distance.
The trade off in accuracy between my Noveske and Douglas SS SPR barrels and quality CL barrels from FN and Centurion Arma is not significant (<0.5 MOA), but the savings in cost, overall weight, rifle balance and barrel life that the CL barrels offer is significant.
So recently my advice to folks has been that unless the plan to shoot almost exclusively from a bench, using good glass and quality match/hand loads, there is no practical advantage to SS over CL.
It's interesting that all of the Wilson Combat AR barrels are 416R. From my understanding the company is known for quality, accuracy, reliability, and top notch customer service.
Stainless steel barrels and CMV barrels hold their precision differently. Years ago, I read an article that a CMV barrel will initially be more precise than a SS barrel, but the SS barrel holds it's precision longer.
As a CMV barrel is used, the throat wears slowly and groups gradually open up until it reaches a point it's no longer precise enough for the job. But the barrel can be pulled and used on, say a training AR where 2 MOA is acceptable.
On the other hand, SS barrels work harden and retain their precision. Groups stay the same size- until chunks of rifling break away at the throat. When that happens, the SS barrel loses precision suddenly and are done.
Another difference is the CMV barrel can be cut at the chamber end and rechambered & throated, or used on another rifle where such precision isn't needed. The SS barrel must be rechambered & throated.
Curious if you are referring to chrome lined CMV barrels / chambers or non-chrome lined? (both are out there)
I did read what Ned Christiansen had to say about reaming chrome lined chambers on his website and have NO doubt he knows what he is talking about but still... Not sure if I would want to personally go down that road and not sure if another company that did barrel work would want to with their tools either. A stainless steel barrel on the other hand - Obviously there is no chrome to be cutting there and no chrome to be lost.
Last SS barrels I had sent off to CLE for rechambering to the CLE chamber only cost me 40 bucks a pop. Guessing if I ever wanted to have them honked out even more to 5.56 spec that would be fairly easy for them to do as well.
Appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this topic sir.
As far as I'm concerned a stainless barrel is only really useful if you're feeding your rifle a steady diet of match grade ammunition. I have two stainless barreled uppers, a CLE 1\8 Douglass barrel and a White Oak Armament 1\8 Wilson barrel. I have yet to find factory fodder in either 55 or 62 grain that shoots better from a practical standpoint in a stainless vs a chrome lined barrel. Some chromed barrels are extremely accurate, and some just aren't. On the other hand, I have used match grade ammunition to cut group sizes in half vs issue M193\M855 with both USGI M16 rifles, and my own 1\9 twist chrome lined AR uppers.
FWIW I’ve had two uppers with stainless steel barrels, in 7.62x39 and 6.5 Grendel. Both were ‘bargain basement’ assembled uppers.
Both have run lots bi-metal steel cased ammo 95% of their lives, more so the 7.62x39. I’ve not seen any long term issues.
IMHO, who makes the barrel is far more important than the material.
That's another thing about stainless. You have to handle them with kid gloves because the metals have lower working temperatures. They shoot out much faster, especially considering what kind of groups people need them to hold to keep their edge over chrome, and you have to shoot slower and always be worried about how hot they're getting.
Well, sort of. If you are doing mag dumps, yes. That's not the purpose of stainless barrels. There is good data that with typical use a good 416 stainless barrel from a reputable company will remain sub MOA for at least 5.000 rounds with match ammo. They get replaced a bit sooner if sub 1/2 MOA is needed.
SPR and Recce AR barrels are not handled with kid gloves by our military elite. And, now many competitive shooters and teams are using QPQ nitride treated stainless match barrels rivaling CMV chrome lined for all but mag dump purposes. Such barrels are now trickling down into more wide availability.
Most shooters opting for match grade barrels are not going to do mag dumps. Nor will they likely shoot enough match ammo to shoot out such a barrel in the time they own the rifle. Benchrest is beyond the scope of this discussion. Their reasons for barrel replacement involve much more than throat erosion.
My duty rifles are 4150 CMV CL or nitride. My match barrels are 416 stainless and n'er the twain shall meet. Match the barrel to the intended use.
I do agree that match grade barrels whether stainless or not are wasted unless they are fed match ammo.
For pure accuracy would a SS barrel or a melonited/nitrided barrel be better & more effective? Both non chrome lined.
For pure accuracy would a SS barrel or a melonited/nitrided barrel be better & more effective? Both non chrome lined.
Can't say. Not that simple. The most accurate match grade barrels are 416 stainless. But, just because a barrel is stainless does not make it accurate. Some nitrided 4140 or 4150 CMV barrels that are made by very skilled barrel makers can be more accurate than a stainless barrel that was not drilled, chambered, rifled and finished as well.
Ultimately it is the skill and precision of the barrel maker that matters more than whether the blank started out from 416 stainless or 4140 or 4150 ordinance steel. It's just that most match and benchrest barrels are made from stainless because it is easier to machine to the exact tolerances that such barrels require for optimum accuracy. Nitride treatment of a barrel does not make it more accurate. It makes the surface of the finished barrel, inside and out harder and more resistant to wear and corrosion.
Northridge
11-08-21, 17:44
One more thing to ponder…all other things being equal, a shorter barrel is a stiffer barrel is a more precise barrel.
If there's still any question as to the suitability of stainless steel barrels for duty use, read this thread-
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?96571-Stainless-Steel-for-a-Duty-Weapon
Pay particular attention to Post #15 by a0cake who has actual combat experience
Right. It’s not more accurate because it’s stainless, it’s because it’s not chrome lined.
It’s a little more complicated than that. I’d put a Criterion chrome barrel against any cheap stainless barrel any day. But they have very uniform plating and lap each barrel.
It’s not that chrome barrels can’t be accurate, it’s that almost every application where chrome is used places durability far above accuracy. So making a superbly accurate chrome barrel is rarely a goal, and in those applications a chrome barrel is easily sufficiently accurate.
Match shooters take off stainless barrels with round counts in the low single digit thousands. 2k-3k is a common range for a service rifle barrel.
My DD S2W seems capable of shooting as accurately as reputable stainless barrels from WOA or CLE. Its 18” and heavy like the 20” svc rifle barrels.
If there's still any question as to the suitability of stainless steel barrels for duty use, read this thread-
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?96571-Stainless-Steel-for-a-Duty-Weapon
Pay particular attention to Post #15 by a0cake who has actual combat experience
The dude's absolutely right. I suspect there's some bias involved in how he collected his data points, because those numbers sound a little too good to be true, but in general solid advice.
I think the elephant in the room though is that 99.9% of people buying stainless barrels first and foremost don't need that level of precision, don't have the skill to use it even if they did (looking at myself here lol), aren't going to invest in high quality long range optics, aren't going to invest in high quality ammunition, etc. For that rare individual who wants to hit man sized targets past 300 yards, and has the skills and resources to make that happen, I'm sure stainless has its place.
Oh, and also worth noting that the Mk12 is HEAVY, and for good reason. It's almost a bull profile, and that's what makes it durable enough to work, and also why it can hold groups larger than five rounds. People buying lightweight stainless barrels thinking they're building a carbine capable of SPR style shooting have another thing coming.
I'd probably never buy a SS barrel for AR. Most of the Chrome lined barrels will shoot around MOA with good 77s. High precision and High volume capability are somewhat mutually exclusive in my experience. I just don't shoot a gasser as good as a bolt gun in most cases.
TacticalSpeed
11-20-21, 09:58
Ended up going with SS barrel for my 7.5" AR pistol.
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