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vicious_cb
10-30-21, 17:32
Start a new thread in my section if you want to talk about it. I appreciate you not taking my comment the wrong way, as there was certainly no malice intended. We can jockey back and forth with some different ideas and angles of looking at things. You don't have a mentality that is wrong on a factual side, but if you are open to talk, I can explain to you what I have to a bunch of other guys (including group and swat).

Continuation from the Pmag thread, you hinted that you had some contradictory knowledge to my conclusion. As said previously I will never stick to told beliefs in the face of good knowledge or data. I never took your post in a negative light but you have tickled my curiosity that you have something to add to the discussion and your experience are greatly valued if you wish to share it.

Some background since I dont expect people to go to the previous thread and wade through that. MY PERSONAL CONCLUSION derived from: training with the AR as a civilian to be used a civilian setting, talking to professionals such as high op temp to SWAT guys like Blowers and his team as well as SOF professionals with lots of GWOT experience is that a majority of gun fights are settled before the first mag change. Ive read Pauls stuff and he probably wouldn't be a paraplegic today if he focused more on the speed reload but his circumstances are vastly different ie. active duty guy with no pistol.

So my conclusion, with the possible and likely ways a civilian AR is going to be used is to DEEMPHASIZE the speed reload in terms of importance and focus more on getting the pistol out to the point where a drop free magazine is not a deal breaker for me. By all means if you suck as reloading the AR then its something you should spend time on but FOR ME the days of doing reload specific drills like SHOT RELOAD SHOT on the timer are over. Any reps on speed reloading now just done when doing another drill where the main focus isnt the reload or just reloading in competition.

mRad
10-30-21, 17:51
One thing about members of a team, in many circumstances…well they have a whole team. Meanwhile and individual is on his own. Reload time is no bullets going to the bad guy’s direction.

I can think of very few situations in which I would have a slung AR and a belt with a pistol in a real-world self defense situation.

That means proficiency reloading for the instance of an empty gun OR a magazine failure. I want the old one out as fast as possible and the new one in as fast as possible.

Another thing I’ve learned over the years: oftentimes when magazines don’t drop free it is user malfunction.


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TehLlama
10-30-21, 23:44
In a circumstance where all I have is a rifle, better believe I'm practicing all the speed reloads to the point where I'm still dealing with some random training scars from pushing too hard on that.

Civilian options where I'm going to have a sidearm every time, what I need to really put the effort into is actually engaging the squishy bit of electrical conductivity inside the skull and figure out where to go after transitioning to pistol and use that as a means to get off the X instead of staying target focused. Even in just practice drills, this is absolutely kicking my ass, and the odds of a single pistol round impact ending a fight are low enough (especially given that I suck at handguns) that that's only ever going to be a conditional success criterion in any case where I'm leaning on it.

Don't Tread On Me
10-31-21, 00:15
As mRad said, the part about being on a team is that your on a team. When you’re a single shooter, keeping fire superiority is a consideration as there is no one to pick up the slack. Between a transition and a reload, on a timer, transition is faster. Effective hits on target at various ranges is an issue on a whole other level but one that could figure into this equation.

flenna
10-31-21, 08:52
If, as a civilian, I just burnt through 30 rifle rounds in a SD situation and my life depends on a fast reload or transition to a handgun then I am facing something that is highly improbable. That being said I do practice both on my home range more now than ever before since the high price of ammo facilitates it. I load up magazines randomly with 2-5 rounds each and practice speed reloads, movement and transition to handgun regularly. It's a good way to make a box of ammo go further.

Stickman
10-31-21, 13:51
Continuation from the Pmag thread, you hinted that you had some contradictory knowledge to my conclusion. As said previously I will never stick to told beliefs in the face of good knowledge or data. I never took your post in a negative light but you have tickled my curiosity that you have something to add to the discussion and your experience are greatly valued if you wish to share it.

Some background since I dont expect people to go to the previous thread and wade through that. MY PERSONAL CONCLUSION derived from: training with the AR as a civilian to be used a civilian setting, talking to professionals such as high op temp to SWAT guys like Blowers and his team as well as SOF professionals with lots of GWOT experience is that a majority of gun fights are settled before the first mag change. Ive read Pauls stuff and he probably wouldn't be a paraplegic today if he focused more on the speed reload but his circumstances are vastly different ie. active duty guy with no pistol.

So my conclusion, with the possible and likely ways a civilian AR is going to be used is to DEEMPHASIZE the speed reload in terms of importance and focus more on getting the pistol out to the point where a drop free magazine is not a deal breaker for me. By all means if you suck as reloading the AR then its something you should spend time on but FOR ME the days of doing reload specific drills like SHOT RELOAD SHOT on the timer are over. Any reps on speed reloading now just done when doing another drill where the main focus isnt the reload or just reloading in competition.

Yo brother man, thanks again for taking things the way they were meant. It is far to easy for people to read or write things and have their context lost. NOTICE- ANYONE WITH A LOW IQ JUMPING INTO THIS THREAD WILL BE BOOTED AND THEIR COMMENTS DELETED. THIS CONVERSATION IS MEANT AS A LEGIT TALK ABOUT SERIOUS THINGS. THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR DORKS WHO PLAY WITH GUNS AND SPEED UP FOOTAGE ON THE INTERNET, OR THOSE WHO DON'T HAVE REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE IN TACTICS OR TRAINING. POST WITH QUESTIONS, BUT DON'T GET OUT OF YOUR LANE. Sorry to have to be a jackass about things, but I want this to be a serious conversation.


Lets set some basic ideas so we are all on the same sheet of music.

1- Are we talking civilian home owner setting? If a different setting lets get a rough idea, it doesn't have to be specific, but lets figure out where an event could take place and kick ideas around from there.

2- Are you alone or with others when something goes down?

3- Do you have defense in depth at the location you are at. For example, lighting, dogs, night, day or what have you...?

Once we have basic info, I look forward to people sharing. For my own background, yes I am an instructor. If we care about titles it is "advanced tactical instructor". I testify as a specialist, though I have been offered the chances to testify as an "expert". I have taught thousands of students, including force on force. I am also prior service, competed in military competition, and played in the sand box. The title and missions we did sounded exciting, but my desert time in the service pales to many. For joint operations I did some deeds with 2 Para and loads of others. I loved my time in the service. My cop time has almost always been working a crap hole of a city with high violence as a daily occurrence. The only reason I mention some of this stuff is so that readers can understand that I've seen a lot of use of firearms from good guys and bad guys. The most common way you are going to get into a shooting as a civilian is a burglary, though anything can happen at any time.

vicious_cb
11-09-21, 21:03
Yo brother man, thanks again for taking things the way they were meant. It is far to easy for people to read or write things and have their context lost. NOTICE- ANYONE WITH A LOW IQ JUMPING INTO THIS THREAD WILL BE BOOTED AND THEIR COMMENTS DELETED. THIS CONVERSATION IS MEANT AS A LEGIT TALK ABOUT SERIOUS THINGS. THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR DORKS WHO PLAY WITH GUNS AND SPEED UP FOOTAGE ON THE INTERNET, OR THOSE WHO DON'T HAVE REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE IN TACTICS OR TRAINING. POST WITH QUESTIONS, BUT DON'T GET OUT OF YOUR LANE. Sorry to have to be a jackass about things, but I want this to be a serious conversation.


Lets set some basic ideas so we are all on the same sheet of music.

1- Are we talking civilian home owner setting? If a different setting lets get a rough idea, it doesn't have to be specific, but lets figure out where an event could take place and kick ideas around from there.

2- Are you alone or with others when something goes down?

3- Do you have defense in depth at the location you are at. For example, lighting, dogs, night, day or what have you...?

Once we have basic info, I look forward to people sharing. For my own background, yes I am an instructor. If we care about titles it is "advanced tactical instructor". I testify as a specialist, though I have been offered the chances to testify as an "expert". I have taught thousands of students, including force on force. I am also prior service, competed in military competition, and played in the sand box. The title and missions we did sounded exciting, but my desert time in the service pales to many. For joint operations I did some deeds with 2 Para and loads of others. I loved my time in the service. My cop time has almost always been working a crap hole of a city with high violence as a daily occurrence. The only reason I mention some of this stuff is so that readers can understand that I've seen a lot of use of firearms from good guys and bad guys. The most common way you are going to get into a shooting as a civilian is a burglary, though anything can happen at any time.

Lets preface this by saying as a civilian, I am highly unlikely to use an AR. The few possibilities for using an AR my purposes would be home defense or civil unrest. Even in the event of home defense, there are enough barriers and early warning that Im not worried someone sneaking up on me while Im asleep. If for instance the power is down and my early warning is compromised I would probably be any 1st floor loud noises with a pistol + weapon light anyway so that leaves a clown car full of guys doing a full scale home invasion or civil unrest for AR use with are both highly unlikely in my AO.

As far as the original premise for not focusing on the speed reload. For one, if I am grabbing the AR in haste and not putting on a range belt where my reloads and full size pistol live, the only ammo Ill have available is what is in the gun at the time I grabbed it. If I have the time to throw on a range belt which has spare mags then I will also have a secondary available, thus for me, I believe getting the pistol out if the AR is empty or malfunctions will be the way to go. Not to mention from a training standpoint getting extra reps for drawing the pistol instead of practicing the speed reload is a much more efficient use of training time and ammo than doing shot-reload-shot drills out of an AR. Again this my opinion, all critiques are welcome.