Are fore-end rails essential? [Archive]

faithmyeyes

12-13-08, 10:59

AirmanAtwood

12-13-08, 11:04

Are you talking about a free float rail? If you get a drop in, you dont need tools for installing it. Take a look at the Troy drop ins. They're not too hard on the wallet and lock up solid. Its definitley cheaper than buying another rifle with a rail already on it. If you want another rifle though, thats a different story. If you can find one for a fair price get one.

strambo

12-13-08, 13:47

"Essential?" Certainly not. Depends on what you want, need. I did a full combat tour in A-stan as an advisor to the Afghan Army and never mounted anything on the rails. I wasn't clearing rooms all the time (did it once) and I didn't want a foregrip getting hung up on stuff. The one time I cleared a compound, I used a handheld surefire.

I'd buy it sans-rail and use it for awhile. If you want to add a rail later get a drop in like the DD Omega or Troy.

JBnTX

12-13-08, 15:04

These four things are all that's "essential" on any AR-15.
(Essential meaning what's needed vs wanted. And meaning
absolutely must have.)

1. It must be reliable.
2. Must have good sights (iron/optics/light if needed)
3. Good trigger
4. Operator who knows what he's doing.

Everything else is gravy.

Failure2Stop

12-13-08, 15:08

There are very good reasons for and against a rail system.
Simply mounting a light is not a terribly compelling reason to get one.
Simply attaching the light to the FSB is a viable option.
Then again, if you want to free-float the barrel to avoid POI shif when shooting from support, provide better cooling to the barrel, employ a VFG, attach supplemental optics, or in some instances shave some weight, then there are good reasons to go with a FF rail system.

faithmyeyes

12-13-08, 15:37

I think what I meant by "essential" was, is it something that most operators decide is desirable after gaining some experience with the platform. I don't currently have an AR or any AR-specific experience other than a couple of chances to put a few rounds through one several years ago... so I'm in the position of trying to spec out a first rifle without knowing what my preferences will be. Almost all the photos I've seen of customized ARs seem to have a forward rail system of some sort.

My idea of a "rail" is one of the systems that replaces the handguard with an assembly having four rails up, down, left, and right. I don't think that's necessarily limited to free-floating ones, but maybe it is. I've considered two reasons why I might want the forward rail: to mount a light, as I mentioned, and to have the option of a front sight that I could remove or replace (as on the Noveske Lo-Pros and the LMT CQB MRP). I don't know whether I'd ever want a vertical foregrip or not, but maybe a bipod for hunting. Does this make sense?

Maybe a good question would be, has anyone put a rail on one and hated it? If so, why?

Or, would you recommend something like an MRP or VIS as a first and possibly only rifle? Pretend that cost is not a consideration. :)

strambo

12-13-08, 15:50

Or, would you recommend something like an MRP or VIS as a first and possibly only rifle? Pretend that cost is not a consideration. With cost no consideration that's a good way to go. I actually ended up with an LMT CQB MRP Piston upper as my first (and probably only) AR type rifle for quite a while. I won't even mount anything to the rails until after my next deployment when I can afford more stuff...even then an optic is first, then a light mount and perhaps a VFG.

I only got the MRP because I found it in stock (for a couple hours) at a non-inflated price. I like that I can change calibers, barrel lengths and even to a DI system later. I'd have been happy with a standard LMT or BCM mid length upper though and gotten that 1st if in stock at a reasonable price. In the position of not knowing what I wanted or having experience with rails...I'd wait and add one later.

T3550N

12-13-08, 15:51

You could always wait for the Magpul MOE grip.
It's not free float, but it's a good replacement for your basic grip and will allow you to mount a VFG and or lights/frickin' lazer beams - if you're into such things.

a1fabweld

12-14-08, 00:18

I personally have installed Daniel Defense 12.0 Lite Rail's on all my 16" uppers only for the sake of extended sight radius (with flip sight at end of rail) over standard fixed sight locations & to free float the barrel. The extended sight radius to me makes a significant difference in accuracy & maybe a slight accuracy advantage from free floating the barrel. Some may say my reasoning for doing so is not necessary, but it works well for me. Also, flip sights are nice with red dot optics.

faithmyeyes

12-15-08, 14:13

Are there any issues with rails being too large, too small, too rough, not heat-shielded enough, etc, that would make plain handguards more desirable (again, not considering cost)?

uscbigdawg

12-15-08, 22:54

Are they essential? Well...to pass the CSM's inspection yeah, but when I teach, including when we're using night vision equipment, I'll have a carbine with a JP-VTAC handguard on it and rails placed where I want them.

The biggest concerns that you have (in my opinion) with conventional rail systems is feel. You either adapt to it or don't with the rails digging in to your hands. Rail covers can fix this as well as add some girth to them if the guard feels small.

In the end, try a couple of different systems out and find what you like, and don't fall in to the trap of thinking that what you have now is the best there is forever.

Rich

BTW - ONLY run free float handguards/rails.

QuickStrike

12-15-08, 23:25

Simply attaching the light to the FSB is a viable option.

Who makes the best FSB light mounts?

Midwest industries?

POF.Ops

12-15-08, 23:46

If the AR is for CQB/HD then no a fore end rail is not essential. For this purpose all you need to mount is a light and red-dot sight. Light weight, simple, and solves the scenario.

rob_s

12-16-08, 04:13

How many of you consider a handguard rail system essential?

Absolutely not!

My last two ARs are without rails and I'm liking them very much that way. As mentioned above, the Midwest Industries MCTAR-01 and MCTAR-04 (http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=94) work well on the front sight base to hold a variety of light options. My favorite is the MCTAR-04 with a Surefire X-300 on it.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/6933-02.jpg

The same mount can be used with a Surefire G2 in a Vltor Scout mount to save a little cash if needed. It works, but I like the X300 setup better.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2870Medium.jpg

Failure2Stop

12-16-08, 06:20

Who makes the best FSB light mounts?

Midwest industries?

I am going off of other's advice here, specifically rob_s, since I do not use a FSB mount. If he says that they work for him I am sure it will work for you (depending on support hand grip position) unless you have a job that issues you guns and crap, and even then it will probably work for 70% of what you need it for.

FVC3

12-16-08, 10:56

If the AR is for CQB/HD then no a fore end rail is not essential. For this purpose all you need to mount is a light and red-dot sight. Light weight, simple, and solves the scenario.

And some - myself included - would say even the red dot sight is optional.

rob_s

12-16-08, 10:59

And some - myself included - would say even the red dot sight is optional.

Can you share your experience that leads you to this conclusion?

My experience is limited, but what experience I do have leads me to believe that the RDS is a necessary option.

ygbsm

12-16-08, 11:16

If you want to mount a light or VFG

http://safariland.com/product.aspx?pid=RK-M4

GlockWRX

12-16-08, 11:19

Absolutely not!

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/6933-02.jpg

[/IMG]

Slick set-up Rob. I've got a 6520 that I'm trying desperately hard not to change into another M4, but a light and RDS are pretty much mandatory I've found.

I like that MI mount you've used, does it stay together pretty well? Do you know if it will clear a M4 style side sling mount (the kind that mounts at the bottom of FSB)?

Also, I know you weigh all the stuff on your rigs, do you happen to know what the weight delta is between the standard A2 upper vs the flat top + LT Buis + T1 you've got? I was considering going with an Omega rail and mounting the T1 and light to it, but the solution you've got seems a lot cleaner.

Jack_Stroker

12-16-08, 11:38

How many of you consider a handguard rail system essential?

I'm trying to decide whether, on a new AR, I should treat a rail system as a foregone necessity and cough up for a rifle that already has one. I don't have the skill/tools to add one myself later, with the possible exception of the DD Omegas. The only gear I know I'd want to put on a forward rail is some type of flashlight mount... and unfortunately, I've not gotten to handle one with rails to see if there's any substantial "ergonomic" differences. So, any advice?

I consider them more or less essential. The Daniel Defense Omega Rails are extremely easy to install and actually are free floating the way they lock onto the barrell nut. I've got a pair of those on my Colt which I'm moving to my Bushmaster. The Colt is getting Daniel Defense Light Rails shortly. I consider them essential because I prefer a forward grip as well as a place to mount other accessories. The flashlight is the main one but bi-pods and other accessories can be desired as well depending on the design goal of the rifle. Ergnomically I think the rails are fine even without a forward grip so long as you use comfortable rails and panels.

rob_s

12-16-08, 11:41

FLGator

12-16-08, 11:46

Absolutely not!

My last two ARs are without rails and I'm liking them very much that way. As mentioned above, the Midwest Industries MCTAR-01 and MCTAR-04 (http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=94) work well on the front sight base to hold a variety of light options. My favorite is the MCTAR-04 with a Surefire X-300 on it.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/6933-02.jpg

The same mount can be used with a Surefire G2 in a Vltor Scout mount to save a little cash if needed. It works, but I like the X300 setup better.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2870Medium.jpg

Is that a single point sling you're running? I would need to knock the sling mount off the FSB on my 6920 to get a light mount on. I'm thinking of going to a single point because of that (and I also have no rails).

GlockWRX

12-16-08, 11:51

One of the nice things about the MI mount in that setup is that the screw head is under the light. So, even if the screw starts to back out and get loose, you're not going to dump you light on the deck and lose it forever.

I go back and forth, but the Troy sight is lighter than the Larue, and may well replace the Larue on this gun eventually. I don't know the A2 vs. flattop/T-1/Larue weight.

Nice. I may have to pick one up.

I bought the 6520 for a lightweight teaching gun for my daughters, and for hiking or carrying on my ATV. I resisted the urge initially to tart it up, but since I bought it, Aimpoint released the T1 and SF released the X300. Both of those things kind of negate the weight penalty you pay for a fully capable rifle.

Jack_Stroker

12-16-08, 11:55

Is that a single point sling you're running? I would need to knock the sling mount off the FSB on my 6920 to get a light mount on. I'm thinking of going to a single point because of that (and I also have no rails).

I've tried single point slings with the AR-15 and I think that the single point just sucks for that purpose. Sure it does "work" in a way but it allows the weapon to move around too much when you let it hang. Though I do like the single point sling for off hand transfers. I too have a Colt LE 6920 and I removed the sling adapter from the barrel. It wasn't exactly difficult to do either. I took mine off because I didn't plan to use it with any sling I decided on and because I didn't like the sling thing flopping around while I was using the weapon. Just something to think about.

HES

12-16-08, 12:12

FLGator

12-16-08, 12:46

I've tried single point slings with the AR-15 and I think that the single point just sucks for that purpose. Sure it does "work" in a way but it allows the weapon to move around too much when you let it hang. Though I do like the single point sling for off hand transfers. I too have a Colt LE 6920 and I removed the sling adapter from the barrel. It wasn't exactly difficult to do either. I took mine off because I didn't plan to use it with any sling I decided on and because I didn't like the sling thing flopping around while I was using the weapon. Just something to think about.

Someone suggested placing this thing

http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=81

at the delta ring and going with the two point sling.

Jack_Stroker

12-16-08, 14:54

Someone suggested placing this thing

http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=81

at the delta ring and going with the two point sling.

Yeah I've seen those. I'm not a big fan of the design for most applications. I'm going to get the sling quick mount attachment from Daniel Defense and use one of the quick sling points on the Vltor E-Mod Stock. I ordered a VCAS sling for mine.

rob_s

12-16-08, 17:35

Someone suggested placing this thing

http://www.blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=81

at the delta ring and going with the two point sling.

I have a rifle set up that way but haven't run it yet.

FLGator

12-16-08, 20:53

Are you using the shorter or longer of the two?

Flash Point

12-16-08, 21:04

I actually prefer standard handguards over rails and its not because I can't afford them. I'm just old school when it comes to ARs. I like the traditional look and feel of the standard configurations (iron sights only, etc.). I have two M4 clones and an M16A4 clone, and of those, only one has an attachment on it (flashlight mounted on a single GG&G strip).

That said, I do plan to put a free-float Daniel Defense 12" on my next build (another 20" bbl M16A4), but only for the sake of accuracy. The only attachment will be a Harris bipod.

sgtred

12-16-08, 21:20

I have found, as have most of my peers, that a free float setup is essential when combining receiver mounted optics and a 2 or 3 point sling. (This clearly manifests itself when using a longer and/or lighter profile barrel. ) I have not tested this with a shorter and/or heavier weight barrel.

rob_s

12-17-08, 03:19

Are you using the shorter or longer of the two?

Shorter.

FVC3

12-17-08, 09:13

Can you share your experience that leads you to this conclusion?

My experience is limited, but what experience I do have leads me to believe that the RDS is a necessary option.

I claim no greater wisdom or experience than anyone else, but I do not believe iron sights are so inferior that RDSs are not optional but mandatory. As I said, a light is mandatory, but a RDS does not rise to the level of mandatory in my opinion - nice to have, but not ALWAYS the best option for HD or CQB.

I used irons exclusively during many years for Uncle. I saw action at I-can-see-facial-expression distances. I was Sr. FI for several years for a gubmint agency that fielded M16s. I have ARs with irons and Eotechs. I have experience with Aimpoints and Trijicons. I like RDSs very much. I do not feel they are mandatory. Last time I attended Select Fire Instructor class, I shot irons only and had a really big time.

So you feel the bell has tolled for irons?

BTW, I saw your excellent article- nice work!

rob_s

12-17-08, 11:24

I see your point re: necessary vs. nice to have.

I'm looking at it from my end and my non-professional use, and the shooters that I observe. Get an RDS on the gun, get them focusing on the target instead of the dot, and hits and speed just seem to increase to the point that "necessary" may be a bit strong of a word, but not far off.

I have a kid that works for me that was a Combat Engineer and got out 5 years ago +/-. In his 3-4 years in he NEVER fired a rifle without an RDS. Obviously not "necessary", but it seems that even the so called "Big Army" is putting an awful lot of faith in them.

So, while I wouldn't say that the bell has tolled, exactly, I don't see the shortcomings in quality RDS that would lead one to still rely on irons for the majority of users. Obviously things outside my lane like going house to house in Iraq notwithstanding.

thanks, on the article. Hopefully the second of more to come. :D

decodeddiesel

12-17-08, 11:37

I claim no greater wisdom or experience than anyone else, but I do not believe iron sights are so inferior that RDSs are not optional but mandatory. As I said, a light is mandatory, but a RDS does not rise to the level of mandatory in my opinion - nice to have, but not ALWAYS the best option for HD or CQB.

I used irons exclusively during many years for Uncle. I saw action at I-can-see-facial-expression distances. I was Sr. FI for several years for a gubmint agency that fielded M16s. I have ARs with irons and Eotechs. I have experience with Aimpoints and Trijicons. I like RDSs very much. I do not feel they are mandatory. Last time I attended Select Fire Instructor class, I shot irons only and had a really big time.

So you feel the bell has tolled for irons?

BTW, I saw your excellent article- nice work!

Good points made here.

In 2003 in Iraq we had a heck of a time getting things other than absolute combat necessities fixed as the higher level support infrastructure in Iraq was in it's infancy or simply non-existent. In the course of the many "cordon and knocks" or "raids" executed with my M4, my M68 went hard tits up. Some prism or reflector got jarred out of place in the tube and rendered the optic useless. I removed the optic and BUIS from the weapon (truth be told I hated the Matech BUIS we had) and ran just the good old A2 charging handle with my Surefire M951 and some orange paint on my front site post. I ran this setup for quite some time, and it served me well for many patrols, 2 full blown fire fights, and countless dynamic entries. Would I have preferred having my M68? Absolutely. Was it a necessity to successfully completing my duties as a rifleman and team leader? Nope.

GlockWRX

12-17-08, 11:48

I, too, wouldn't go so far as to say an RDS is mandatory. But I think the evolution of the sights has put to bed most of the reasons for not having them. Aimpoint killed the battery question with some of their new sights. Leave the sight on and change the batteries out every summer Olympics or 5 year anniversary. Weight and/or bulk? Check out the micro Aimpoints. I think the only reasonable barrier still remaining is cost.

While irons are still viable, I think the reasons to stick with them are dwindling away. What they do for overall performance make them worth the minor tradeoffs required.

Back to the rails. Rails are not required, but they sure do make things easier. Lights, slings, VFGs etc. are all easier to mount on a rail. The other nice thing is that they let you try things out and experiment to see what works best for you. You can screw a piece of rail onto a handguard to mount a light, but you may decide you don't like it there. Then you have to drill more holes. You can move the VFG fore and aft until you got it where you like it.

But if you know what you want and where you want to put it, you can get away without rails. You could even get one of the Surefire fore end lights that replace the handguards. They feel like standard handguards and get you a great light. But if you want to stick with the regular hand guards, there are piceces of rail and mounts that let you put stuff on without having to replace the handguards.

rob_s

12-17-08, 12:12

I think that most people would agree that (outside of training, ammo, mags) the order should go something like:
1) Light
2) RDS
3) Rails, stocks, grips, etc.

faithmyeyes

12-17-08, 17:05

Back to the rails. Rails are not required, but they sure do make things easier. Lights, slings, VFGs etc. are all easier to mount on a rail. The other nice thing is that they let you try things out and experiment to see what works best for you. You can screw a piece of rail onto a handguard to mount a light, but you may decide you don't like it there. Then you have to drill more holes. You can move the VFG fore and aft until you got it where you like it.

But if you know what you want and where you want to put it, you can get away without rails. You could even get one of the Surefire fore end lights that replace the handguards. They feel like standard handguards and get you a great light. But if you want to stick with the regular hand guards, there are piceces of rail and mounts that let you put stuff on without having to replace the handguards.

Thanks, all, for the informative discussion. I basically want four things mounted on the rifle: an optic, a light, BUIS, and possibly a bipod for special occasions. One of the things that appeals to me about the rails is the number of options for flip-up front sights. I've not yet gotten to try sighting through an optic on a rifle with a fixed front sight to find out if it causes me a focus problem... I've heard some say it's no issue and others that they can't stand it. If I feel I need the flip sight, I'd just as soon go ahead and get a rifle with no fixed FSB and rail-mount a set of Troys or similar. The current contenders are, assuming eventual availability:

With rails:
Noveske N4 Light Recce Low-Profile (how much $$$ for these, anyway?)
LMT CQB MRP Defender 16" (and swap out the standard sights)

Without rails:
CMMG Mid-length MedCon (with upgraded BCG)
Noveske N4 Light Recce Basic

I'm looking at complete rifles because although I could probably spec out a Franken-gun for a little less, I'd have to pay someone the difference to put it together for me anyway. I know I could add rails later to one that didn't come with them, but it doesn't seem to be significantly cheaper to do that, even were I to use bolt-on rails.

Am I thinking straight?

GlockWRX

12-17-08, 18:12

Am I thinking straight?

As an arrow. If I don't succomb to SCAR fever, my next AR will include rails with flip up sights. My short list is:

LMT MRP Piston
N4 Recce
KAC SR15 E3 IWS

I've shot a couple of ARs with magnified optics and fixed front sights and it seemed fine to me. Other users have way more experience and could give you better input.

Like I said, the main benefit to me of the rails is the versatility. You can clip stuff off and on as you see fit, and move it around. With standard handguards, that versatility is reduced. I like the rails, but you could build up a slick set up without them if you choose. Your options are more limited, but it can be done.

rob_s

12-17-08, 19:02

IMHO if the front sight base is causing you issues, you're doing something wrong.

faithmyeyes

12-17-08, 22:01

IMHO if the front sight base is causing you issues, you're doing something wrong.

One person I spoke with had trained extensively with irons before acquiring an M4 with an EOTech sight. He said that with the front sight visible through the optic, his focus naturally locked to it which caused him problems using the optic correctly.

I've no personal experience, so I don't know whether that makes sense or not - it's just what I was told.

GlockWRX

12-17-08, 22:21

One person I spoke with had trained extensively with irons before acquiring an M4 with an EOTech sight. He said that with the front sight visible through the optic, his focus naturally locked to it which caused him problems using the optic correctly.

I've no personal experience, so I don't know whether that makes sense or not - it's just what I was told.

That's the first time I've heard of that. When some people first use an RDS they try to put the dot on the sight post. Of course, that's not how they are supposed to work. I used irons for a long time before I got an RDS. My first reaction when I used it was "why did it take so long for me to get this thing!".

I think your friends experience is a rare exception.

jar420

12-18-08, 22:31

I look at them as a fad. Seems a rifle isn't cool anymore unless it has everything but the microwave oven hanging from it.

decodeddiesel

12-18-08, 23:22

I look at them as a fad. Seems a rifle isn't cool anymore unless it has everything but the microwave oven hanging from it.

On my issued M4 I had a KAC RAS on which I had many accessories. A Surefire M951, AN/PEQ-2, KAC VFG, Aimpoint M68 or ACOG TA31F (on the receiver), and Matech BUIS. Every single thing on that weapon had a specific purpose and served to directly improve the effectiveness with which I could operate the weapon under various conditions. NOTHING was faddish or without purpose.

I can appreciate a KISS rifle just like everyone else, they are "cool" under their own right and very fun on the range. However on a serious battle tool the "microwave ovens" are completely necessary and called for.