View Full Version : What do I have, how did I do, and what do I do with it?
John_Wayne777
12-13-08, 11:07
I was at the gunshow this morning early looking for a deal, particularly on an evil black rifle. Most of what I saw was outrageous...There was a Stag Arms M4gery for 899, but it didn't really move me.
Then on a table sort of out of the way I spot blonde AK furniture and I see this:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0962.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0964.jpg
Now when it comes to AK's you can fit what I know into a thimble. About the only thing I do know is that Norinco's were victims of the import ban long ago but were always regarded as pretty good AK clones. It was the only AK clone in the building for less than 750-800 bucks, and those were mostly WASRs that look like they had been drug through a Tapco catalogue.
So I tried to call TheKatar for guidance but got no answer. "Eh...screw it." I thought. "I can always sell it later if I have to."
So a couple of transfer forms later and she's home:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0965.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0966.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0967.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0968.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0970.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0969.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0971.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0972.jpg
The weapon appears to be unfired. The bore is mirror bright, the internals don't show much wear and the piston doesn't even have any carbon on it. It's got lots of dust and accumulated crud, but under the gunk the metal appears to be in perfect shape.
When I got home TheKatar returned my call and told me that I've got a "national match" Norinco. He mentioned that it's possible to install another barrel on the rifle or to just have the existing 20" barrel (the longest I've ever seen on an AK) cut, recrowned, and rethreaded.
Thoughts? Options? Opinions? I figure the learned AK sages of M4C are the best people to drop some knowledge on me....
Robb Jensen
12-13-08, 14:02
Give it to me. :D
JW,
What did you end up paying for it? Seems like a decent score even with that hideous sniper barrel.
I had one and the action was smooth as butta and was suprisingly accurate. :)
John_Wayne777
12-13-08, 15:19
JW,
What did you end up paying for it? Seems like a decent score even with that hideous sniper barrel.
600.
The only other reasonable AK's there were the "Arsenal Saiga" rifles...which were selling for 750. They are apparently an Arsenal AK that some genius put a fudd stock on.
Talk about a memorable experience....I was moving through the throng and on a table I see the front 2/3rds of the rifle and a 750 price tag. "SCORE!" I thought to myself...750 for an Arsenal AK right now? Friggin' A.
After moving deftly around all the idiots trying to go three different directions in the narrow aisle (yes, THREE directions. There are only two possible but somebody was so stupid they couldn't figure that out) I managed to get right next to them. I reached around the fat smelly guy to my left to pick one up overjoyed at finding one of my "buy-on-sight" deals....and it wasn't until I had the thing in my hands that I noticed the stock on it.
I literally said WTF out loud. I've never experienced this personally, but I would imagine my disappointment would be analogous to the feeling one would get if they took home the really hot chick they just met only to find out she was a he at the last minute.
Talk about a buzz-kill.
I started thinking through the possibilities of having somebody do a conversion on the gun like they do for the Saiga shotguns but I wasn't too keen on the idea. The NHM-91 was at least an honest to God AK that would take a normal stock and pistol grip instantly if I decided to do that.
Staring down the two options I went with the Norinco. I've since done some research on the NHM-91 and found out that it's sort of like an RPK-lite. In the original packaging it came with a bipod that attaches between the FSB and the ring visible on the barrel. Supposedly it's pretty accurate. I don't make accuracy jokes about the AK much since doing the Vickers AK courses with my Vepr-K. I found out that just about every AK was more accurate than I am...
TheKatar mentioned the possibility of buying a 16: barrel from PolyTechParts.com and having somebody install that barrel on the rifle for me....any thoughts on that? I'm not violently opposed to leaving the rifle as-is, but I'm also favorably receptive to a plan that puts a shorter, good quality barrel on the thing to create essentially a standard evil AK configuration Norinco rifle....
Jay Cunningham
12-13-08, 15:27
Here's that site that I told you about:
http://www.polytechparts.com/
:cool:
eta: nice looking gun, I think you got a lot to work with for what you paid. Don't be surprised if your 20" barrel is actually less accurate than you're used to - especially compared to your VEPR. Nothing to sweat, though.
John_Wayne777
12-13-08, 15:35
Here's that site that I told you about:
http://www.polytechparts.com/
:cool:
eta: nice looking gun, I think you got a lot to work with for what you paid. Don't be surprised if your 20" barrel is actually less accurate than you're used to - especially compared to your VEPR. Nothing to sweat, though.
I was looking over that site earlier and they have some 16" barrels for 189....I assume they are in the same quality bracket as the OE Chicom builders, right?
What smiths out there would do a barrel swap for me?
Jay Cunningham
12-13-08, 15:55
AK-USA (http://www.AK-103.com)
AZ Expert Arms (http://www.azexarms.com)
Blackwell Industries (http://blackwellindustries.com/page5.html)
Coyote Gulch Armory (http://www.coyotegulcharmory.com/)
The Firing Line (http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/firingline/index.html)
Global Military Gunsmithing (http://globalmilitarygunsmithing.com/_wsn/page3.html)
InRange (http://www.InRangeC2.com)
Investment Grade Firearms (http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/)
Piece of History Firearms (http://www.pieceofhistoryfirearms.com/)
Red Stick Firearms (http://www.redstick-firearms.com/)
John_Wayne777
12-13-08, 16:45
AK-USA (http://www.AK-103.com)
AZ Expert Arms (http://www.azexarms.com)
Blackwell Industries (http://blackwellindustries.com/page5.html)
Coyote Gulch Armory (http://www.coyotegulcharmory.com/)
The Firing Line (http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/firingline/index.html)
Global Military Gunsmithing (http://globalmilitarygunsmithing.com/_wsn/page3.html)
InRange (http://www.InRangeC2.com)
Investment Grade Firearms (http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/)
Piece of History Firearms (http://www.pieceofhistoryfirearms.com/)
Red Stick Firearms (http://www.redstick-firearms.com/)
...looking at all those is making me think I should go back tomorrow and buy one of the Arsenal Saigas and send it out for conversion....:eek:
I have talked to chris at Ak-USA great guy.will talk to you like he knows you not just someone that wants to take your cash.Myself I would stick it in the box and save it,just as it is.I remember seeing a few of those in the gunstore back in the day .I don't think many where brought in .but I could be wrong Good score though
Tim, go over to my board and PM Moondoggy.
He's a great guy, and really knows building. He was in the 2nd or 3rd Vickers AK class.
He's almost in your area, just a slight bump to the west. He might very well be able to help you out with swapping the barrel out on that.
John_Wayne777
12-13-08, 19:37
I just shot m0ondoggy an IM asking for his input. Thanks for the reference.
If a swap to a 16" can be done fairly reasonably, I think I'd prefer to go that way so I don't have another non-standard AK. That's really the only thing I dislike about my VEPR-K...none of the accessories in the AK world work for it. It's just kismet that when I finally have the scratch to buy a standard AK all of them sell for 1400 bucks.
If I did keep the original barrel I would probably turn it into an RPK conversion eventually.
Swapping with a 16" barrel is going to be harder than a simple swap-out, unfortunately. Unless you can find a Chinese 16" barrel, that is.
The barrel diameter at the chamber of Chicomm guns is .764 whereas your average 7.62 barrel (Russian, Romanian, Hungarian etc) the barrel diameter is .908 at the chamber. Add to this that Chinese AKMs really have AK barrels press fitted into their stamped receivers. Fun stuff.
Anywho, it can be done but it makes much more sense to simply cut your current barrel to 16" and re-crown and thread it.
John_Wayne777
12-14-08, 00:10
Swapping with a 16" barrel is going to be harder than a simple swap-out, unfortunately. Unless you can find a Chinese 16" barrel, that is.
I would assume the ones sold by PolyTechParts are Chinese barrels or at least built to Chinese specs. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...I will have to check with them on this.
The barrel diameter at the chamber of Chicomm guns is .764 whereas your average 7.62 barrel (Russian, Romanian, Hungarian etc) the barrel diameter is .908 at the chamber. Add to this that Chinese AKMs really have AK barrels press fitted into their stamped receivers. Fun stuff.
...so one would need a barrel press and possibly a new trunion to fit the new barrel?
Anywho, it can be done but it makes much more sense to simply cut your current barrel to 16" and re-crown and thread it.[/QUOTE]
I would assume the ones sold by PolyTechParts are Chinese barrels or at least built to Chinese specs. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...I will have to check with them on this.
They should be the same, yes. I'd still shoot them an e-mail or phone call to confirm.
...so one would need a barrel press and possibly a new trunion to fit the new barrel?
You'll need a press regardless. I've never seen a barrel pin come out with a hammer (although I heard of a couple) and you really should use a press to take out the barrel as well but I've seen some innovative setups that didn't use a press. In short, a press is the fastest, most consistent way to pull a barrel.
To fit a foreign barrel you'd have to strip it completely (FSB, GB, RSB all removed) and then turn down the chamber with a lathe. I wouldn't be comfortable doing it though as some would question the toughness of the metal after you've turned it down--I'd also never use a barrel that had drill marks over the chamber, regardless of how shallow they are. This was/is a common issue with new builders who first try to demill the front trunnions without first pulling the barrel and don't pay attention to how far they're drilling. Some have used them successfully but I wouldn't want to risk it personally.
Doing pistol caliber conversions (especially when Suomi kits were $20 from CFS with a purchase of any other kit) it was common to lathe out a shim to fit the smaller barrel into the larger trunnion.
Or, alternatively, the entire front trunnion could be replaced. It would take some fitting (Chinese receivers are 1.5mm thick) and you'd have to tig over the old trunnion holes first (the Chinese front trunnion has a different rivet pattern than it's European counterparts). I think that would be totally impractical as you already have a good front trunnion.
If the polytechparts barrel assembly is to spec, the barrel could be changed out successfully in minutes (depending on how long it takes to pull the old barrel). Headspace will definitely have to be checked (well, it should be checked whenever a barrel is pulled, even if it's the original)
I still think it would be a lot easier to cut, recrown, and re-thread the barrel, so long as you don't plan on mounting a suppressor to it. If you want to cut the threads with a lathe, the barrel will have to be pulled regardless. I say the part about the suppressor because I'd much rather have threads lathed in rather than cut with a 14x1LH die if I were going to run a can--way too easy to cut the threads off just a tad. This isn't a very big issue with a flash suppressor or muzzle brake, but with a can every misalignment is cumulative. Once again, others have done it but I personally wouldn't.
The gas hole in the barrel of your NHM-91 and a regular chicomm barrel should be the same. If you have problems cycling then it might have to get opened up but I doubt it.
John_Wayne777
12-15-08, 10:46
Response from the PolytechParts.com folks:
The barrels that we offer SHOULD fit the Norinco guns, but we only guarantee that they work on the Poly Tech guns. The Norincos were built mainly in arsenal “66”, while our guns were built at arsenal “386”, so we can’t be absolutely certain that there weren’t some dimensional variances between the two places.
Our barrels are New, Old Stock from the late 1980s, built at the original state arsenal “386” (now defunct)
The barrel is chrome-lined. Please note that the gas port is drilled through the gas block, but not all the way through the barrel. That was the normal way that they were supplied by the factory. The port will have to be drilled through the barrel after the barrel is installed on the receiver and everything is lined up.
Yes, the barrel’s muzzle is threaded (14mm x 1 left-handed) and it is supplied with the muzzle nut.
Thoughts?
You should be good to go, and Moondoggy has the presses, etc.
John_Wayne777
12-15-08, 12:05
You should be good to go, and Moondoggy has the presses, etc.
Bitchin'.
I'll place the order now.
...of course now all I need to do is get some new furniture for it. I assume it'll take "standard" AK furniture once I get the thumbhole stock off. Is there any special voodoo to getting a folding stock on these things?
I assume having to drill the barrel is a normal process because you have to do some careful fitting of the AK gas block when assembling, right?
Bitchin'.
I'll place the order now.
...of course now all I need to do is get some new furniture for it. I assume it'll take "standard" AK furniture once I get the thumbhole stock off. Is there any special voodoo to getting a folding stock on these things?
I assume having to drill the barrel is a normal process because you have to do some careful fitting of the AK gas block when assembling, right?
Which way do you want it to fold? Underfolders and the left-side folders would require some surgery on the receiver. You can get "drop-in" folders that fold to the right - they attach to the rear trunnion the same way the original stock does.
Don't forget the 922 parts as you get into making it evil...
Spooky
Bitchin'.
I'll place the order now.
...of course now all I need to do is get some new furniture for it. I assume it'll take "standard" AK furniture once I get the thumbhole stock off. Is there any special voodoo to getting a folding stock on these things?
I assume having to drill the barrel is a normal process because you have to do some careful fitting of the AK gas block when assembling, right?
Chinese rifles will take European stock sets, but it will require a lot of fitting. The Chinese receivers are 1.5/1.6mm thick and the standard stock sets need some filing/reduction, especially the buttstock.
You can get an East German/Romanian side "wire" side folder that is fairly drop in (will require fitting), but an AKS-74 style stock will require major surgery.
Chinese rifles will take European stock sets, but it will require a lot of fitting. The Chinese receivers are 1.5/1.6mm thick and the standard stock sets need some filing/reduction, especially the buttstock.
You can get an East German/Romanian side "wire" side folder that is fairly drop in (will require fitting), but an AKS-74 style stock will require major surgery.
The buttstock and the lower front handguard will take the most, by far. That NHM-91 furniture looks so good I'd just wipe some tung oil into it and keep it. If you want really nice wood then go with Ironwood Designs
http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/
Plus, since they are made in the US, a complete stock set counts as 3 US parts for 922r compliance.
Toten Kopf
12-16-08, 14:30
**********end of line
Oh man, you got a good deal! Don't cut it down or attempt a barrel swap. It's not worth it. Leave it stock and the resale will go up. Cut/alter it and it becomes just another AK...
John Wayne - DONT DO IT! I agree with the previous 2 posters - lots of 16" AKs, you scored a winner. Its not a sniper, but an RPK clone. I would swap out the parts, give it a real stock, and always go to the prone with a 75rnd drum.
Templar - would you alter it any other way?
Follow your heart, but RPK clones are really cool also.
Jay Cunningham
01-14-09, 16:44
:rolleyes:
See what happens when you start asking "AK Guys" their opinions?? "Oh noes!!!1! Don't do it!!!11!"
:p:p
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