Good, the Bad & the Ugly on a Glock in .40S&W??!! [Archive]

SloaneRanger

12-13-08, 13:53

Ok Guys...
I would love to get the opinions of some of you very well qualified shooters on here whose opinions I highly value.

I have a Colt LE6920 as my primary Katrina type gun and several hunting guns/shotguns but my Katrina sidearms are a pair of Glocks in .40S&W. Specifically a Gen 3 G22 and G23. (my everyday CCW weapon is a stainless Walther PPK in .380acp/9mmKurz).

I am in a quandry on the G22 & G23. I bought these a couple of years ago and don't shoot a ton. I used to shoot a lot with a Browning HIPO 9mm.
I went with the Glocks for their utilitarianism & simplicity but also becasuse there was no safety which presented one less thing for my wife to worry about if I was away at hunting camp and she needed to defend against an intruder. I leave them in condition 3, full mag inserted, firing pin having been previously dry fired on an empty chamber. I have taught her to rack one and go. ( I don't want to get into a debate about my choice on that:)) I went w/ a .40S&W because of the better ballstics over the 9mm.

My main concern is the renowned opinion of our very own Larry Vickers. An accomplished meat eater and brave patriot, who appears to think very lowly of Glocks in .40S&W and .45ACP.
I have bought extra hicap mags and stockpiled a few hundred rounds of ammo for the G23 & G22 and don't want to really have to change out pistols or calibers, but having gone with a 'top of the line' type carbine, I hate to think that my sidearms of choice are questionable. I am thinking of going to a 9mm ( the price of the ammo is attractive), but I hate to have to go big loser on the Glocks, mags and ammo which I would. I also saw a lovely Colt 1911 that I'd love if funds were available (also the cost of ammo is high).

I hold any advice that Mr. Vickers' gives in the highest of esteem, but just exactly how predominant are the shortcomings of the bigger caliber Glocks? After all the .40S&W Glock has to be about the most widely issued departmental gun in current use today. They can't be that bad can they? A guy at the range says that Larry's concerns are unsubstantiated and that they are coming from a guy who is a paid endorser for HK.

What do you guys think? Keep the .40S&W glocks or start over on the sidearms and take the $$$ losses incurred???

Thanks

Sloane

ToddG

12-13-08, 14:07

A guy at the range says that Larry's concerns are unsubstantiated and that they are coming from a guy who is a paid endorser for HK.

I'd enjoy watching that "guy at the range" say that to LAV's face. That's just me, though.

There is a big difference between saying ".40-cal Glocks don't run nearly as well as 9mm Glocks" and saying ".40-cal Glocks suck and never work." I don't think anyone is saying the latter. Pretty much everyone with an objective view seems to agree -- to varying degrees -- with the former.

markm

12-13-08, 14:34

Keep the 40s, Homie!

I think issues with the Glocks start at about 40-50 thousand rounds. Or you can get malfs if you mount the light to the pistol. I don't like weapon mounted lights for pistol, so it's no issue for me. You can also do what I did and add a Glock 17 for practice and keep the round count low on your 40s.

If you're shooting a modest volume of ammo like you say, the 40s will last you a very long time. Think about how long it would take you to burn thru 40k of ammo. It's not long for SWAT guys who don't have to pay for training ammo. But for me, it'll be another 10-20 years depending on ammo prices.

RogerinTPA

12-13-08, 14:55

Ditto on keeping the .40's. I owed a G23 since they first came out and it was a great shooter (It got traded it for the M&P40 a few months back). No malfunctions after thousands of rounds fired. It didn't have a rail so I don't have any experiences with malfunctions with a light being attached. You always have the option of trading it for the G19 for the wife if recoil concerns her and cheaper training ammo. The are quite a few great ammo choices for the 9mm that are as effective as the .40. Check out the ballistics forum for more info.https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

GlockWRX

12-13-08, 15:32

I would stick with what you have. Yes, the 9mm Glocks last longer and have a lower rate of parts failures, but the .40's aren't the widow makers a lot of folks portray them as. Since you are a relatively low round count shooter, you probably won't experience the failures that some of the high round count guys experience.

I would go to Lonewolf or Glockmeister and get a couple of trigger pins and a hand full of recoil springs for each gun. I'd change the recoil spring out more often, maybe 5000 rounds, and call it good. When I had a pair of G23's, I think they used the same recoil spring as the G19, which didn't seem right. So I switched them out more often, and I got about 10k rounds through my primary one before I traded in for a G17.

oldtexan

12-13-08, 15:49

I'd enjoy watching that "guy at the range" say that to LAV's face. That's just me, though.

There is a big difference between saying ".40-cal Glocks don't run nearly as well as 9mm Glocks" and saying ".40-cal Glocks suck and never work." I don't think anyone is saying the latter. Pretty much everyone with an objective view seems to agree -- to varying degrees -- with the former.

I understand that there is or has been a professional relationship between LAV and HK. I have read high praise from him (IIRC on this board) for 9mm Glocks and for properly-built 1911s, neither of which are built by HK. This makes it pretty clear to me that he is not simply a mouthpiece for HK.

GlockWRX

12-13-08, 16:03

I understand that there is or has been a professional relationship between LAV and HK. I have read high praise from him (IIRC on this board) for 9mm Glocks and for properly-built 1911s, neither of which are built by HK. This makes it pretty clear to me that he is not simply a mouthpiece for HK.

I'd concur. I've never met him personally, but nothing I've seen from him would suggest his opinions are motivated by dollars.

ToddG

12-13-08, 16:09

I'd concur. I've never met him personally, but nothing I've seen from him would suggest his opinions are motivated by dollars.

I've known Larry for many years, going well back into his time in the military. Without a question in my mind or the mind of anyone who actually knows him:

Larry is not shy about sharing his opinion.
Larry's opinion is not for sale.

TOrrock

12-13-08, 16:24

I've known Larry for many years, going well back into his time in the military. Without a question in my mind or the mind of anyone who actually knows him:

Larry is not shy about sharing his opinion.
Larry's opinion is not for sale.

What Todd said couldn't be more true.

The sand test that got Larry in so much trouble with a lot of Glock guys was when he was still in the Army and not in any way affiliated with HK.

He's always been very upfront with his connections to different companies, but he will absolutely tell you his opinion on something if asked, and that's not motivated by sponsorship.

ToddG

12-13-08, 16:28

SloaneRanger asked a perfectly legitimate question about the suitability of .40-cal Glocks. Since the side-issue regarding LAV has been more than adequately addressed, let's get back to the Glock discussion.

If anyone wants to discuss Larry's ethics and integrity, he's an IP here. Send him a PM.

Thank you.

TOrrock

12-13-08, 17:24

.40 cal Glocks are not known to be as durable as the 9mm and 10mm Glocks.

Glock basically just did the bare minimum to modify the 17 into the 22 back in the rush to beat S&W to market with a pistol. They did so, but without really beefing up the slide.

Glocks also do not have supported chambers, and you are more likely to run into a problem using higher pressure loads because of it.

As others have stated, if you're comfortable with it, and it works for you, then with the round count that it looks like you'll have with it, as long as it feeds and functions with the defense ammo you've chosen, keep them.

If it were me, I would sell them and stick with 9mm and .45 ACP.

SloaneRanger

12-13-08, 17:32

GlockWRX

12-13-08, 17:47

Templer hit it on the head. Glock took a G17/19 and put a different barrel in it and said "We're first! We're first!" If they did their homework they would have realized that the .40 runs at higher pressure and batters guns pretty hard. Other makers took their time and released guns that were more robust (HK USP, SIG P229, etc.) Since the .40 came out most makers have designed their platform to withstand the beating the .40 dishes out. As a result, the 9mm version of most newer guns are overbuilt.

The 9mm Glocks aren't perfect either, despite what Gaston claims. NYPD had some pretty serious problems with their G19's a few years back. I haven't heard about it lately, so maybe that's fixed. But nobody and nothing is immune to problems completely.

But for the most part, 9mm's are much easier on a gun than a larger caliber. Just about anyone can make a 9mm last, simply because it's a pretty tame round overall.

In the end however, I'd also rotate out of them like Templer suggested (in fact, that is exactly what I did; two G23's were swapped for a G17 and G19). If you want to stick with .40 or .45 I'd look at the M&P line. If you want to stay with Glocks, I'd go to a pair of G17s or G19s. An added advantage is that the 9's are cheaper to feed and practice with.

Matt Edwards

12-13-08, 17:50

I'll shear what I "believe/remember" he stated in a conversation I had with him down in Altha FL. I'll give the highlights as I remember them.
- The Glock 22 has known issues with mounted lights.
- The Glock 22 is essentialy a "9mm pistol" that has been loaded with .40 cal. There are some issues with this.
- Since we live in an age where the gap between the 9mm, .40 cal and .45 is closer then ever in performance, why use a pistol that is less reliable with a light that fires a bullet that increase wear and decreases service life?

Todd said it well when he stated that the Glock in .40 dosen't run as well as one in 9mm. That is very far from calling it a POS.
I have a 22. I like it. I have carried it and will carry it again. I shoot it well for a layman.
My best friend has carried one employed by DOE for over 8 years. He has been in sub units that do a lot of shooting. He also likes it. However, he and his organization has had confirmed and documented issues with mounting a light. To his chagrin, they are not authorized to mount them anymore. Like many others, he would rather have a 9mm that he can mount a light to, then have "the bigger bullet" that he can't.
Just food for thought.
In the end, I'd keep it. Just get a 9mm also.:D

Business_Casual

12-13-08, 17:53

If they did their homework they would have realized that the .40 runs at higher pressure and batters guns pretty hard.

Would you care to look up the SAAMI pressures for the 9mm and 40 S&W and post them here?

M_P

SloaneRanger

12-13-08, 18:08

GlockWRX

12-13-08, 18:32

Would you care to look up the SAAMI pressures for the 9mm and 40 S&W and post them here?

M_P

Ok. I did. I was wrong, the 9 and .40 operate in the same pressure range, 33,000 psi. I knew .45 was lower (about 21,000) and erroneously thought that 9 operated at the same pressure.

ra2bach

12-13-08, 19:05

Thanks Guys...Keep it coming, All good info. It is why I love this site. Real shooters, real experience and a notable absence of internet rambos who shoot more 6mm bbs than anything. Unlike many other boards that I no longer frequent:cool:

I called and am going to the gun club tomorrow. They will only give me $325 per Glock but I have $100 worth of mags they'll take back. (I may try to sell privately as I could get more like $425 for each pistol). I may get a 9mm HK USP or a sig 2** series (depends what they have) or that used Colt 1911 ($750) which I am in love with but I hate the cost of .45 acp ammo:eek:

wow. neither of those two pistols you mentioned would be my first choice coming from a Glock. not a thing wrong with either but for some reason your choice caused me to perk my ears up.

Have you checked out the S&W M&Ps. very durable, great shooting guns. highly thought of by people I think highly of.

Federale

12-13-08, 19:21

Thanks Guys...Keep it coming, All good info. It is why I love this site. Real shooters, real experience and a notable absence of internet rambos who shoot more 6mm bbs than anything. Unlike many other boards that I no longer frequent:cool:

I called and am going to the gun club tomorrow. They will only give me $325 per Glock but I have $100 worth of mags they'll take back. (I may try to sell privately as I could get more like $425 for each pistol). I may get a 9mm HK USP or a sig 2** series (depends what they have) or that used Colt 1911 ($750) which I am in love with but I hate the cost of .45 acp ammo:eek:

You know, unless you have a really good reason to switch calibers and pistols, I think you're overreacting. Glock .40s have served tens of thousands of LEOs for almost 2 decades with great success. If they have an achilles heel, its durability over the long haul and unless you're in the very small percentage of shooters who really put a lot of rounds downrange, you're a long ways away from worrying about the durability of a .40 Glock versus a 9mm Glock. And since you already said that you don't shoot a ton, in my opinion, I don't see a real need for you to switch out your .40s.

Larry Vickers

12-13-08, 20:22

John_Wayne777

12-13-08, 20:30

A guy at the range says that Larry's concerns are unsubstantiated and that they are coming from a guy who is a paid endorser for HK.

I'd trust his opinion over that of just about everyone else I know because quite frankly he's seen a hell of a lot more than I ever will...and even little ol' me has watched 40 caliber Glocks crap the bed. There were some DOE contract guards at a Tactical Handgun II course I took at Blackwater in 2002 using their newly purchased Glock 22's. There were four of them and they brought six G22's to the best of my recollection...by the end of the 3000 round course they had 4 functional guns. It wasn't uncommon to see them at the back benches canibalizing pistols to put together one working firearm. To the best of my knowledge ALL of them brioke SOMETHING during that class. There are also numerous credible reports out there of Glocks in .40 with problems including when using a mounted light. The Indiana State Police didn't reject the .40 caliber Glocks because of LAV's opinion...they rejected the .40 caliber Glocks they initially tried to buy because they didn't work worth a damn and Glock couldn't fix them.

They went with 9mm Glocks and have since been just fine. Glocks in .40 caliber as a rule tend to have more issues than the 9mm ones do. It's when you see guns in issue numbers over multiple production runs that you start to see whether or not the design has, as Mr. Vickers puts it, "fleas".

What do you guys think? Keep the .40S&W glocks or start over on the sidearms and take the $$$ losses incurred???

People often get this twisted....if your guns are working right now with the ammo you carry, don't panic. Look to replace them with 9mm models when you can. Keep a careful eye on them and maintain them carefully until you can make the switch.

Often in discussions of the Glock platform one has to overcome articles of faith among the True Believers out there who believe that the design was handed to Gaston by an angel after it burst forth from the Blessed Virgin's womb. They are a tool, nothing more.

I look at it much like Mr. Vickers advice on the Colt 6920. For a DI gun his recommendation for a ready to run out of the box gun is the 6920 and to leave the major functional pieces of the weapon alone. Now I have a Bushmaster I've run in a couple of his courses that work just fine. (apart from my appalling lack of accuracy) Does that invalidate his advice? Absolutely not. Bushmaster can build a decent gun...mine is living proof....but they also tend to have more problems in the reliability and service life department and a guy who wants a trouble free weapon out of the box is more likely to get what he wants from the 6920.

If *YOUR* Glocks are working for *YOUR* purposes with *YOUR* equipment and *YOUR* ammo, so be it. Keep a careful eye on them and watch out for the known problems with them. As an example, I wouldn't recommend putting a Surefire X series light on your G22 or G23 if you don't already run one reliably. It may work...or it may cause you the problem a lot of other users have seen. Don't risk it. You don't have to panic and get rid of your Glocks. I didn't panic and get rid of my Bushmaster and it's not like LAV gave me the evil eye or anything for using it in his class.

He makes these statements on equipment, by the way, because people are always asking him what equipment they should buy. When people are beating down his door to know what he recommends, I'd call that a "clue".

citadelshooter

12-13-08, 20:34

Recently had a conversation with a Q Course instructor at a local competition shoot. He is on a 3 year instructor rotation at the Q. He said that - and I might regret this - that some CAG shooters are using the G22 as their primary sidearm. This is quite interesting. He did say that quite a few operators both SF and others are using the G22 on deployments. He personally used a G35 with X200 when he deployed to the Middle East two years ago. I thought this was EXTREMELY interesting.

SloaneRanger

12-13-08, 21:11

If you have a choice, and many people do not, I can't for the life of me see why anyone would choose a .40 Glock over a 9mm one - the G17 and 19 are excellent guns and have a fantastic track record and with the availability of inexpensive 9mm practice ammo (as compared to other calibers) as well as some very lethal 9mm JHP loadings for carry use I fail to see a down side to a 9mm flavored Glock

I have said it many times and nothing I have seen or heard has made me change my mind - if you want a Glock go with a 9mm version and stay away from the others calibers if you have that option open to you

be safe

LAV

LAV..

Thank you for the response. I do agree with you wholeheartedly. I unfortunately did not have the information about the disadvantages of the .40S&W calibre Glocks at the time I made my purchase. Wish I had.

If the truth be told the only reason why I went with the .40S&W over the 9x19mm Glock was because I had figured that the bigger bullet had to be better. I went with the Glock for simplicity's sake. No safety was a factor as I believed if my wife ever needed it in my absence it was one less murphy factor. The reason for the second Glock also in .40S&W was to eliminate the murphy factor of two different but similar calibre rounds.

Matt Edwards

12-13-08, 21:40

Of interest, as far as who uses what...
Just remember that by the time we get the info that are outside the comunity, the info is "old."

I shot an issue Glock when I was invited to shoot with a unit almost 2 years ago.

My old boss, from another unit, told me he had a Glock as a choice also...back in 1996!

Lav will always take you in the right direction. You may not like which way it goes, but he is taking you there 'cause he knows it is what you need.

Ask me how I know...

Federale

12-13-08, 21:54

LAV..

Thank you for the response. I do agree with you wholeheartedly. I unfortunately did not have the information about the disadvantages of the .40S&W calibre Glocks at the time I made my purchase. Wish I had.

If the truth be told the only reason why I went with the .40S&W over the 9x19mm Glock was because I had figured that the bigger bullet had to be better. I went with the Glock for simplicity's sake. No safety was a factor as I believed if my wife ever needed it in my absence it was one less murphy factor. The reason for the second Glock also in .40S&W was to eliminate the murphy factor of two different but similar calibre rounds.

You sound like you're looking for an excuse to spend some money on some 9mm Glocks. There's nothing wrong with that. But from the sound of it, there's nothing wrong with your Glock 22 or your Glock 23 either. If you're willing to take a loss on two pistols that don't apparently have any issues and buy virtually identical pistols in 9mm, keep in mind that the smart thing to do is to run hundreds of rounds through those new 9mms to make sure that THEY are as reliable as your Glock 22 and 23 already are.

In my opinion, you're spending a lot of unnecessary cash to get you to a place you're already at right now. Two pistols that are reliable. If you had two lemon 40s, or if you were starting from scratch, then maybe I'd say something else. But you're not. You already own two reliable Glock pistols.

xray 99

12-13-08, 22:16

My agency issued the Glock 23 (70 pistols) two years ago and they seem to work (i.e. function) just fine. I carried the Glock 19 for 12 or so years prior and much prefer the 9mm in the Glock platform because I find it easier to control. I shoot 35/36 with the 23, but the 19 allowed for that one ragged hole.

A lot of officers saw their accuracy plunge with the Glock 23.

variablebinary

12-13-08, 23:11

I've been carrying a G22 during the winter months for 5 years. I have 100% confidence in the gun and the design.

I estimate its digested 12,000 or so rounds. It's literally had zero failures. None. With that level of performance, I see nothing enticing enough about other brands to consider changing

Also, all .40 caliber pistols will have a shorter life cycle compared to their 9mm kin. This fact is not exclusive to Glock.

Matt Edwards

12-13-08, 23:59

Maybe split the difference. Maybe take the loss on one of your Glocks and replace that one with a Glock in 9mm. The support equipment is the same.
Due to the fact that I owned a G23 10 years ago, I'd recommend trading/selling that one to fund a G19 (it is a great "always" gun). For now, keep the 22 in the 'larger' caliber.
Just a suggestion.
It may be better to take a loss, then live with regret
In this way you can keep a .40, for now, cause you are use to it, and try out the 9.

M4arc

12-14-08, 05:41

I called and am going to the gun club tomorrow. They will only give me $325 per Glock but I have $100 worth of mags they'll take back. (I may try to sell privately as I could get more like $425 for each pistol). I may get a 9mm HK USP or a sig 2** series (depends what they have) or that used Colt 1911 ($750) which I am in love with but I hate the cost of .45 acp ammo:eek:

Slow down...take a few deep breaths...relax.

Do not rush to trade them in because you're going to get bent over in the process. If you can not keep the G22 & G23 and still buy something else then go over to Glocktalk and post them for sale for $450 each. I didn't see what state you were in but more than likely you can do a FTF sale with someone local and get $450 cash in hand, plus more for magazines $20 each, and the ammo. That should give you plenty of money to buy something else.

My advice is to stick to the 9mm Glocks since you're already familiar with that platform.

SloaneRanger

12-14-08, 06:48

M4arc

12-14-08, 06:59

Thanks Guys..

I suppose I am looking for an e'xcuse' to change up the aresenal a bit and funds don't allow for buying new without selling the old.

I am in GA and did put the pistols up on a local outdoor sporting board at $425 ea firm, with the mags @$25 each as well as the ammo. I have had lots of interest back already. I was just going to sell with a bill of sale. Is an FTF necessary for a private sale?

Sincerely

S

I would ask $450 for each and if you can get $25 per magazine then more power to you! Post them up here and on Glocktalk and I guarantee you'll move them ASAP.

You really don't need anything for a FTF but a bill of sale, made on you computer, is fine. I would keep all email correspondence that you have with the seller and maybe ask to see his drivers license so you know he's a GA resident. I see more and more people asking for CCP holders only. It's up to you.

Iraqgunz

12-14-08, 07:15

I started carrying Glocks in 1990. I purchased my first one at a pawn shop in Columbus, GA for 439.00 which was a whopper back then for an E-4. I went with the Glock 19. Since then I have had a G22, G17,G21 and G26. I few years back when I got back to the U.S and into guns I bought another G22. I have put a few thousand rounds through it and did in fact incur a few malfunctions with the Surefire X200 mounted on it. I switched loads and the problem has happened again-yet.

I currently own a G22, G19 and a G17 is on the way. I carry a G19 daily at the moment. I have the utmost confidence in the Glocks that I own and use. I would say that if you are set on getting rid of the Glock .40's you own, sell them and get a G19 and G17. I agree with M4arc that they will move in this current environment pretty fast and I am willing to bet you do Ok on the deal.

There will be virtally no transitional learning curve and you won't have time lost getting into a new weapon.

Dport

12-14-08, 07:23

Glocks also do not have supported chambers, and you are more likely to run into a problem using higher pressure loads because of it.

I'm not sure how true this is anymore. My stepfather had a G22 and it did have minimal support at the 6 o'clock position. However, my G35 had substantially more support.

I think .40 cal Glocks are constantly evolving. What you get now is light years ahead of what you'd get 10 or 15 years ago.

ETA: I did sell my G35 eventually. I didn't want another caliber to keep. So I standardized on 9mm until a few weeks ago when I got bit by the 1911 bug, again.

variablebinary

12-14-08, 07:45

I'm not sure how true this is anymore. My stepfather had a G22 and it did have minimal support at the 6 o'clock position. However, my G35 had substantially more support.

I think .40 cal Glocks are constantly evolving. What you get now is light years ahead of what you'd get 10 or 15 years ago.

ETA: I did sell my G35 eventually. I didn't want another caliber to keep. So I standardized on 9mm until a few weeks ago when I got bit by the 1911 bug, again.

You're very correct. Chamber support on the newest models is very good.

R Moran

12-14-08, 09:04

Not sure if I can add anything, as LAV has responded, and you seem to have made up your mind.
FWIW, if you can come out OK on the deal, I'd go with the G17/19 or move to an M&P.

I'm the guy Matt was talking about earlier. I've shot a lot of rounds out of a G22 over the years, with and w/o a light. Other then I was a "1911 guy" for most of the time, I had no real problems with them, until we switched lights and ammo, at one facility I used to work at. My current facility had similar issues, and just don't use the light, the old facility fiddled around, had the Glock rep out, etc etc in the end they switched ammo, and crossed their fingers.

Its common to say "mine are reliable" with the light. Well, maybe, but I believe there are a lot of variables involved, so you need to ask reliable with what ammo, light, mag generation, and round count.

The majority of the ammo I've shot, has been generic ball training ammo, when we went to a "hotter" duty load, different light, and the recoil springs had probably never been changed, we got trouble. So your gun maybe reliable with WWB ammo and new springs, not so much 5000 rounds down the road, with Ranger ammo.
So I would insure it was reliable with my chosen duty load, over maybe a case of ammo, and constantly keep fresh recoil and mag springs in the gun.

As Matt stated I would rather have a 9mm with a light, or hell, .40 ball, with a light, then whatever w/o the light.

I also would not trade out a Glock for any long trigger gun like the Sig, or a $750 1911.
I'm really liking the M&P in .40(sorry LAV) these days.

John_Wayne, do you recall where those SPO's worked? SPO/I/II/III: Security Police Officer, guards chase kids away from the mall:D

Bob

DocGKR

12-14-08, 12:19

As I've said before:

The .40 M&P may be the finest LE service pistol yet invented...

If you want a Glock, get it in 9 mm...

These days, skip Sig...

If you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if your not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911...

Matt Edwards

12-14-08, 21:32

As I've said before:

I've never herd you say any of that!

;)

JohnN

12-14-08, 23:08

Shotdown

12-14-08, 23:57

I carry a G27 for self defense and I shoot a G23 for IDPA. I haven't had an issue with either of them. I had a TLR-1 light attached on my G23 as well and never had any malfunctions. I've also owned a M&P .40. Great gun, up to the point I started having mag drop issues and had to send the gun back twice.

I shoot the .40 S&W a lot and I like it a lot. I say keep them and pick up a G19 as well (which is what I'm planning to do). I've shot different FMJ and JHP loads because I want to find out what works and doesn't work before I buy in bulk. I have yet to find a brand that malfunctions in either of my .40s.

HK45

12-15-08, 01:34

I don't think LAV has any current contract with HK and if he did I doubt he would alter his opinion for that reason. It doesn't sound like you shoot a whole heck of a lot so I wouldn't worry about the .40 Glocks. There are a whole lot of LEO's using them and and they are not self-disintegrating. I happen to like the Glock .45's myself and trust them at high round counts.

HK45

12-15-08, 01:40

The .40 Glocks are not the same as their initial run. Lots of changes over the years. Check the chamber on a new .40 Glock.

.40 cal Glocks are not known to be as durable as the 9mm and 10mm Glocks.

Glock basically just did the bare minimum to modify the 17 into the 22 back in the rush to beat S&W to market with a pistol. They did so, but without really beefing up the slide.

Glocks also do not have supported chambers, and you are more likely to run into a problem using higher pressure loads because of it.

As others have stated, if you're comfortable with it, and it works for you, then with the round count that it looks like you'll have with it, as long as it feeds and functions with the defense ammo you've chosen, keep them.

If it were me, I would sell them and stick with 9mm and .45 ACP.

Gentoo

12-15-08, 01:44

You've spent to much time thinking on this to ever let it rest in your head. Sell the .40s locally and buy G19s or G17s. If you don't you will always be second guessing yourself and wondering. Not worth the heartache over a couple of pistols and a few dollars.

IMO

variablebinary

12-15-08, 01:58

The .40 Glocks are not the same as their initial run. Lots of changes over the years. Check the chamber on a new .40 Glock.

Exactly. Chamber support is very good on .40 models currently

TurnKey

12-17-08, 19:11

I own and carry a G23, and G27 for almost 10yrs now. Shot 10,000's of rounds through both of them w/o a jam or breakage. I run'em wet w/Mobil 1 10w-30, and strip the slide often to clean the firing pin, spring, and extractor.

JonInWA

12-18-08, 08:20

I think that while Glock has incrimentally improved the .40 models over the years, and that they are a good, reliable platform within their forecasted lifespan (which I believe to be some 40K rounds), at a minimum their springs (particularly their magazine springs) will need more frequent replacement than those in 9mm Glocks.

Basically, you hace a near identical platform adopted for a higher pressure (with a quicker pressure spike) cartridge, which inevitably will accellerate both wear and the susceptibility of some small parts breakage over time/use.

Given the improved state of the art (and wide-spread availability) of viably performing 9mm cartridges, given a choice between going with a 9mm or a .40 platform in a Glock for satisfactory, low maintenance hard use and performance the nod would go to the 9mm platform.

As has been mentioned, the key thing would be for you to look at your needs, use, expected round counts, ammuntion availability, and maintenance/parts replacement abilities. There probably isn't a bad decision to be made here.

Best, Jon

Business_Casual

12-18-08, 08:49

Basically, you hace a near identical platform adopted for a higher pressure (with a quicker pressure spike) cartridge, which inevitably will accellerate both wear and the susceptibility of some small parts breakage over time/use.

We've covered this - the 40 S&W and the 9mm have the same SAAMI pressure standard.

What subject matter expertise do you have with regards to mechanical wear and susceptibility - e.g. are you a materials or mechanical engineer - do you have or are you speculating?

M_P

MikeO

12-18-08, 11:26

Glock 40s are good enough for DOJ (FBI, DEA, USMS) to issue.

Were not good enough to get a DHS (ICE, CBP, USCG, FAM, USSS) contract in 2004, SIG and HK were. Beretta, S&W, and SA bombed/dropped out of those trials too BTW.

Next round of DHS trials should be 2009; will be interesting to see who enters what and how they do this time?

Business_Casual

12-18-08, 14:04

diverge

12-18-08, 14:38

I have a G23 for less than 2 years which has ~15,000 rounds through it. No problem. Never changed springs until just recently. Not that it needed it just regular maintenance. Can't believe someone thinks springs need to be changed every 1000 rds or the gun would malfunction. BTW, if you need Glock factory parts buy them from OMB police supply, not Lone Wolf Dist whatever else Glock specialty store, unless you don't like money.

I reload so ammo cost is not a factor. I know, get out of this thread or it is going to explode. My reloads are made to have the same perceived recoil as my SD ammo, Federal HST.

Glock changed the 40 S&W models to offer more chamber support. You can find pics on the net. Supposedly, the newer 40 models have resolved the problem with a mounted light. Supposedly, there are parts you can replace so the older models work with mounted light. I don't mount lights to my handguns so I don't know.

Know someone that cracked his slide below the ejection port shooting a 9mm G34. He only shoots factory ammo and a lot of it.

With all that said, I agree with the others that recommend a 9mm since you don't shoot much. Follow up and one handed shots would be easier as perceived recoil is less. Factory ammo is also cheaper in 9mm. Like someone else said, it may be your significant other having to use it. For an untrained shooter 40 can be a handful. Shooting large amounts of 40 fatigues me more than 9mm. Nothing significant since I workout but I do feel the difference.

ra2bach

12-18-08, 15:15

Jon,

The 9mm and the 40 S&W have the same SAAMI pressure: 35,000. How is "the same" equal to "higher?"

Secondly, the 45 ACP runs at about 21,000 - are you making the assertion that the recoil from the 45 is less than 9mm?

M_P

chamber pressure is not equal to axial or "bolt" thrust. with a larger diameter, the base of the .40 will exhibit greater rearward force than a smaller caliber of the same pressure.

diverge

12-18-08, 15:30

(interestingly, the 9mm .357 SIG and the .40 full-sized Glocks do use the same locking block).

Full sized 9mm does not share the same locking block with the full size 40S&W models. The 9mm and 40 modes have the same parts with the exception of:
• barrel
• magazine
• spring loaded bearing
• extractor (15/0 for G19, 15/5 for G23)
• firing pin
• locking block
• trigger housing/ejector

From the Glock armorers manual:

Locking Block Part Numbers
G17 SP01447 (New 3 pin)
G22 SP04354

The G22 shares the same locking block with the 24,31,35

GlockWRX

12-18-08, 15:31

I have a G23 for less than 2 years which has ~15,000 rounds through it. No problem. Never changed springs until just recently. Not that it needed it just regular maintenance. Can't believe someone thinks springs need to be changed every 1000 rds or the gun would malfunction. BTW, if you need Glock factory parts buy them from OMB police supply, not Lone Wolf Dist whatever else Glock specialty store, unless you don't like money.

I guess this is directed at me. First off, I said replace at 5,000 rounds or so, not 1000. And I didn't say it would malfunction if you didn't do that. The 40's use the same spring as the 9's, so my personal recommendation is to swap them out at a shorter interval than the 9's. Do what you want.

I've never ordered from OMB Police Supply. The last time I bought Glock parts was about 5 years ago, and LWD and Glockmeister were competitive with anyone then.

The way I see it, Glock took a 9mm and rebarreled it to handle a cartridge that generates about 1/3 more energy and recoil force than the 9mm. At the time, the .40's and 9's had the same slide and recoil spring. So, the slide velocity on the .40's is higher than the 9, which is a cause of the battering. Slides have to be stopped and returned to battery. The faster they are, the heavier the battering. Since the G22/G23 was introduced, they've had to update the design to keep the guns from beating themselves to death (adding pins, updating the chambers), with modest success.

S&W designed and built a .40 caliber gun and then put in a 9mm barrel. So the M&P9 sees 1/3 less energy and recoil force than a .40. Since the M&P40 was designed to handle the .40, it shouldn't have the problems of the Glocks.

JonInWA

12-18-08, 15:37

It's the magazine springs on the .40 caliber Glocks that are recommended for change-out every 1,000-2,000 or so rounds (or simply rotating 'em annually) in "The Glock In Competition." There are also spring coil measurement techniques than can be applied, but the 2K or annual replacement interval for .40 mag springs makes sense to me.

At a recent (Aug '08) Glock Armorer's course, the Glock recoil spring assembly replacement interval recommendation is every 3,000 rounds, across the board for all of the Glock models.

Diverge, the "current" Armorer's Course manual IS the 2002 version that you're quoting. The problem is that its been superceded by events (and new Glock parts and models), and at the Glock Armorer's Course the Instructors/LE Reps hand out a truly current 2008 Parts List during the course; there has been a new draft edition awaiting approval by Glock HQ Austria(they and Glock US have gone back and forth over it several times...). According to my Glock 2008 parts list, the SP 01447 block is uniformly used in current (post mid-2002 3-pin and later) G17, G17L, G34, G22, G24, G31, G35, G20, G21,G21SF, and G37 models.

The SP 04354 block is used in OLDER (pre mid-2002) G22,G24,G31 and G35 models.

Best, Jon

Dport

12-18-08, 16:12

Jon,

The 9mm and the 40 S&W have the same SAAMI pressure: 35,000. How is "the same" equal to "higher?"

Secondly, the 45 ACP runs at about 21,000 - are you making the assertion that the recoil from the 45 is less than 9mm?

M_P
I think the real problem is one of footprint. The barrel of the G22 and the G17 take up the same real estate. The G22's chamber has, by necessity, less material to handle that 35,000psi. Not to mention, especially with the faster and/or heavier loads, if you have bullet setback the pressure increases dramatically. There is no real margin of safety for the .40, as I understand it because of the less material for the chamber to hold the pressure in. That is illustrated by the SAAMI specs. 9mm has a +P standard. .40 does not.

Dport

12-18-08, 16:18

Secondly, the 45 ACP runs at about 21,000 - are you making the assertion that the recoil from the 45 is less than 9mm?

Basic physics tells us that recoil is mass multiplied by velocity. In a simple recoil problem the speed of the bullet while leaving the barrel would give us the information we need to determine recoil. That's a simple problem that does not take into account things like gas and its velocity.

So if you had a 115gr 9mm load with 4.0 grains of powder and a MV of 1050fps and a 230 grain .45 load with 4.0 grains of the same powder and a MV of 850fps, you'd have more recoil with the .45 (this is assuming that the powder in both burns the same and leaves the muzzle at the same velocity).

jjc155

12-18-08, 16:51

From PERSONAL experience I can tell you that a federal hydra shock out of a glock 23 is a very effective man stopper.

I have also seen one run over by a car and picked up and fired.

I have 10's of thousands of rounds through my 23 (and my 26 9mm and 17 9mm before the 23), most of which are crappy dirty comercial reloads that we qualify with. I have never have had what I call a "fatal" stoppage that I could not quickly clear with a immediate action move. I have actually had very few stoppages at all, even with those crappy reloads.

I carries glock pistols on a daily basis at work and off duty and would be hard pressed to trust my life on any other pistol, based on my personal life experiences.

Just my 2 cents,
J-

R Moran

12-18-08, 19:01

JJ,
That's great that you've had success with yours, that doesn't mean the rest of us, and some large agencies have not had the problems we are speaking of.

Bob

varoadking

12-18-08, 20:14

I have KKM match grade barrels in all of my Glocks, including my G22...

I can't say that folks that might use their .40S&W Glocks more than me don't have more issues than me, but mine is and always has been just fine...

FWIW...

hawk

12-18-08, 21:45

I appreciate LAV's opinions very much. Having said that I have two second generation G23s that I've owned and shot regularly for 14 years. Never had a problem with either except if it was ammo related.

YMMV.

RWK

12-19-08, 10:18

What do you guys think? Keep the .40S&W glocks or start over on the sidearms and take the $$$ losses incurred???

If you can't get your head around whether or not you're comfortable with Glocks in .40 S&W but, you still want a .40 S&W sidearm, I say sell/trade the Glocks for M&P's.

If you want to stay with the Glock platform, I say sell/trade them for 17/19's, especially if you already have holsters, etc. for the 22/23's.

If you don't practice fairly regularly, I say get away from the .40 S&W regardless of the platform and go to 9mm.

As an interesting footnote, I attended Rogers Shooting School last year. Most of the people showed up with Glock 22/23's. By the end of training day two, every one of them had switched to a school loaner gun - Glock 19's. They switched not because of malfunctions but, because the .40 S&W cartridge was kicking their asses. I was the only person who finished the course shooting .40 S&W (from a Glock 35). And my wrists had had quite enough by the end of the week.

ToddG

12-19-08, 10:25

As an interesting footnote, I attended Rogers Shooting School last year. Most of the people showed up with Glock 22/23's. By the end of training day two, every one of them had switched to a school loaner gun - Glock 19's.

I witnessed this same thing two of the three times I attended Rogers. (the one where it didn't occur was a closed class for a mil unit and everyone present was shooting 9mm Berettas)

RWK

12-19-08, 10:46

I witnessed this same thing two of the three times I attended Rogers. (the one where it didn't occur was a closed class for a mil unit and everyone present was shooting 9mm Berettas)

I'd been told it was very common for that to happen. What made it more interesting was when Rosie took a poll of what duty weapons people were issued (about 80% of the class were cops). Every one of them who were on their second or third class at Rogers showed up with 9mm's even though their issued sidearms were .40 S&W. They caught no end of abuse from Rosie over that. :D

BTW Todd, a belated congrats on your A-ticket from Rogers. That's something to be proud of!

ToddG

12-19-08, 10:49

They caught no end of abuse from Rosie over that. :D

And rightfully so, imo. If someone struggles on D1 and needs a 9mm to get over the hump, fine. But once you make Basic with the 9mm, if you're going to carry something else in the For-Real World, you should use that.

Every time I've gone to Rogers, I brought the pistol I was carrying at the time. It's been a Beretta 92G, a SIG P220ST, and a M&P9. If I manage to get down there again in '09 I'd like to do it with a 357.

edited to add:
BTW Todd, a belated congrats on your A-ticket from Rogers. That's something to be proud of!Thanks!

DarrinD

12-19-08, 21:08

I switched from a Glock .40 (23) primarily because I can shoot 9mm more accurately and faster. When compared to the mid-power .40 cartridges used by LEA's I have consulted with, the terminal ballistics are not much better - if it all - than the best of the 9mm offerings. The full power mid-weight .40's seem to produce a more significant wound channel, but at the expense of increased recoil. For me that meant less accuracy and slower follow-up shots, which was not acceptable for my needs. Thus the switch to a G17. I knew of, but was not as concerned with the reliability issues mentioned above as I was accuracy and speed; for my round count my .40 never had a FTF.

HK45

12-20-08, 12:04

There have been a heck of a lot of improvements made to projectile and propellants since the .40 came out. Of course that benefits all calibers but it makes the 9mm that much more of a realistic alternative to .40. I feel fine with a good 9mm 124gr +P even though I mostly shoot and carry .45.

HK45

12-20-08, 12:10

Are you shooting .357 now? If so are you writing about it anywhere? That and the 10mm are rounds I have always found interesting but never actually done anything with.

If I manage to get down there again in '09 I'd like to do it with a 357.
edited to add:Thanks!

ToddG

12-20-08, 14:16

Are you shooting .357 now?.

Not quite yet. :cool:

There is a plan in the works for '09 but the final niggling details still need to be nailed down.

SloaneRanger

12-21-08, 10:45

OK guys..

The .40S&W Glocks will be gone today.

Finding a replacement (as the pitols of choice for replacement are mostly near double the price of Glocks) is a tough choice. I plan to stay out of the Glock camp for now. With them being so popular and relatively inexpensive you can't currently get one anyway in 9mm unless you want the G26 and have the hands of a midget (which I don't) or want to go on a 4 week wait list.

It seems to me that my American blood brothers are very partial to the .45ACP and 1911's in particular-and why not. They are both great. I dismissed it as an option due to the fact that the general consensus is that you'd have to pay around $1800 for a custom built gun to get a true 'operator's' weapon. I would love a .45ACP and actually narrowed my choice down to an HK45 compact . I'd take the HK45C in tactical if it was available but I can retrofit a tactical barrel later. Should the older USP 45 be an option?

I may go 9mm due to cost of ammo. I'd hate to not be proficient in my gun because I never train due to the cost of ammo. 9mm has a big advantage there.
I don't want to start a 9mm vs .45acp debate. I figure that if the 9mm is good enough for the SAS/SBS it is good enough for me. SAS/SBS, as you all are already no doubt aware, use double taps exclusively so that is how they likely make up for the ballistic handicap over the larger calibre and I do train using double taps. (I am not sure what 1SFODD SOP is in terms of 'double taps or not)- but I believe that they use custom Ed Brown 1911's as their sidearm.

I am thinking about a SIG specifically. Can you tell me which model these are?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55zawUndP50&feature=related

Eddie Stone specifially states "10-round magazine" and they look to be 'compact' size. I was under the impression that the regt. used normal P226 size. These may be dignatory protection details training hence the requirement for a smaller/concealable pistol. If these are the SAS gen II models that I tried in the store they felt top heavy and tippy and I didn't particularly like it.

I am aware of Sig's recent QC issues and may just get a used one. What serial #/Date range do I need? I'd like (correct me if I am wrong) a newer one piece slide but would like a model made prior to the start of the QC problems. Also do all sigs have a 2 piece barrel. I'd rather have a 1 piece.

To be honest all gun stores are about out of everything and choices are very limited.

One other 9mm that I liked is the HK USP9SD which is basically the tactical but it does not have the match trigger or o ringed barrel. Would that be a good choice considering that the USP line is rumored to be phased out.

Thanks for your help.

Respectfully

SR

John_Wayne777

12-21-08, 10:52

In the video they appear to be using P229's and P226's....with blanks.....10 round magazines in either are chumped because both pistols are designed to have more than 10 rounds in their standard magazines.

Did you actually liquidate your two current handguns BEFORE having a replacement handy? Were these your main self defense guns? I sure hope not...

9mm Glocks are out there and can be had for reasonable prices. There are a number of them on sale at Gunbroker and other auction sites, as well as in the Equipment Exchange sections of the various gunboards.

If you are happy with Glocks, stick with Glocks. You may not find the transition from a consistent trigger pull to a traditional DA/SA gun to be all that optimal for you. Another note in the Glock's favor is the availability of excellent .22LR conversions that allow you to use the same sights and the same trigger that your carry gun uses. Most other handguns do not have this option.

H&K's are nice handguns. I'm sorely tempted by the P30 myself...but again, it's a DA/SA handgun. Some people really struggle with the DA/SA transition. You can train enough to eliminate that problem, but in my experience there aren't many people who have the luxury to do a lot of training. The P2000 or P30 would be my choice in a 9mm HK handgun.

The SAS/SBS use 9mm for a lot of reasons that don't really apply to you. You are free to use whatever you want. Trust me: That's a blessing lots of people who kick down doors and shoot bad people for a living would love to have. What makes sense for the SBS/SAS/SEALs/Delta/Whatever might not make sense for your needs. Keep that in mind when you hear that unit X uses piece of gear Y on the internet. The requirements and reasons behind their equipment choice might not make any sense for your application. Witness the HK MK-23. Somebody in the US military thought it made sense when it was developed...but it would be a TERRIBLE choice for a concealed carry piece for the average citizen/LEO in the US.

The 9mm happens to be a good choice because it is probably the least expensive centerfire handgun cartridge available and there is a wide variety of ammo in the caliber that offers excellent performance. It's a very versatile chambering and most people (especially beginners) would be better served with a 9mm and more training than by spending the resources on the slightly better ballistic performance of the .40 or .45.

Robb Jensen

12-21-08, 10:58

I am thinking about a SIG specifically. Can you tell me which model these are?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55zawUndP50&feature=related

Looks like 226s and 228s to me.

ToddG

12-21-08, 11:04

Sloane -- Like JW777, my first comment is don't sell the Glock .40's until you have a replacement in hand.

Like JW777, my second comment is if the Glock works for you, take the time and effort to locate a 9mm Glock to replace your .40-cal Glocks, if that is what you want.

My third comment, based on some of your discussion about "double taps" and the like, is take a basic pistol class before making any more decisions about what you want and need. The NRA Basic Pistol and Personal Protection classes (http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/find.asp) are very good stepping stones.

SloaneRanger

12-21-08, 11:23

Thanks, Guys
Unfortunately the Glocks must go prior to being replaced due to finances.
I do have a walther PPK in .380 acp that is my actual CCW weapon. I love that gun. in the summer I can have on board shorts and a t shirt and still carry it comfortably concealed. The glocks were my house/nightstand gun/ out in the woods hunting/Katrina SHTF guns.
I also have a Colt LEO 6920 that would/could be a primary home defense weapon.

Also I did shoot a browning hi-po alot and a ruger p-89 both substantially more than any Glock so I'm not at all concerned about going to a DA/SA over a striker fired type trigger group.

With regard to the SAS/Delta/Devgru etc I know I am not kicking in doors or off rapelling into an embassy but most criteria for selecting a weapon for CRT/CRW/HRT/CQB work would have definite relevance to a home defense/ Self defense (urban environment) situation. Obviously we can't carry around an MP5. Us cake eaters have to make do with the sidearm.:D Edited to say..I reread your post JW777..I see you are meaning that sometimes units must use a weapon based on the brass dictating what calibre they must choose. Makes sense.

Incidentally..I may be getting confused on the 2-piece barrel. I know the Hi-Po has one now confused if I read that about the Sig or not.

John_Wayne777

12-21-08, 11:28

\

With regard to the SAS/Delta/Devgru etc I know I am not kicking in doors or off rapelling into an embassy but most criteria for selecting a weapon for CRT/CRW/HRT/CQB work would have definite relevance to a home defense/ Self defense (urban environment) situation. Obviously we can't carry around an MP5. Us cake eaters have to make do with the sidearm.:D

When it comes to the reliability and durability of the weapons, sure....but there are other considerations. When you are fast roping out of Blackhawks concealment isn't really a priority for you. When you have an insanely large training budget and your unit puts 50,000 rounds of handgun ammo downrange per year, you can get scary good with just about anything you are given....and generally in the military you are GIVEN equipment...you don't get to pick.

Ordinary joes may find that the equipment used by the HSLD types, while it's usually decent equipment, is sub-optimal for their day to day needs.

Incidentally..I may be getting confused on the 2-piece barrel. I know the Hi-Po has one now confused if I read that about the Sig or not.

I'm not familiar with what you mean by "2 piece barrel". Every Hi-Power and Sig I've ever handled has a barrel that's machined out of bar stock as a single piece.

ZDL

12-21-08, 12:04

Quite a few agencies round these parts carry the G22. Doesn't make it right, correct, or smart... Just passing on some info. 2 of the academies within driving distance also exclusively use these with recruits.

If something is more clear than, LE agencies don't always make the right decision when it comes to firearm choices, I don't know what is. Our approved rifle list is embarrassing save 1 out of our 7 choices.

That being said, while I was in academy 3 classes with an average of 35 recruits with each person shooting between 1500 - 3000 rounds (depending on speed of recruit class) shot the G22 with 0 issues that I was aware of. That is the extent of my knowledge of the subject.

JonInWA

12-21-08, 12:07

Browning Hi-Power barrels are almost always a 2-piece proposition as produced by FN from their inception.

Best, Jon

HK45

12-21-08, 12:41

The 1911 is a perfect example of that. 1911's demand continuous training for safety and reliability.

Ordinary joes may find that the equipment used by the HSLD types, while it's usually decent equipment, is sub-optimal for their day to day needs.

HK45

12-21-08, 12:43

now that is some funny shit. :)

SR -- .40 caliber Glocks aren't death on a stick. You won't catch anything by having them in your arsenal.

HK45

12-21-08, 12:48

My problem in describing what I would like to see Glock change is that it ends up looking like an M&P. Better ergo's all around plus grip adjustability. Both are becoming expected these days as well they should. What's the point of polymer if not making it into a desired shape rather than a 2X4? Get rid of that dinky mag release, cheesy plastic sights, round off some corners, make the grip ergo and adjustable. Maybe even a steel guide rod. Teeny tiny incremental improvements such as Glock has made over the years may end up catching up with them otherwise.

R Moran

12-21-08, 13:06

SR,
If you cant trade straight across, or with a little extra money added in, stand by, save up the money, then trade. Use the time to look at whats available, or get on one of those waiting lists.

I carry the G22 everyday at work, and whats on the line is a lot more then my ass. If it were not for their unreliability/finickiness with a light attached, I'd have no real problem with them.

You are far from naked against the forces of evil armed with a G22.

On the subject of what specific units/org./agencies use or have adopted, as pointed out, it doesn't always apply. You must understand why they chose what they did, and put it in context. Some guns/equipment gets adopted simply on cost, or another maker never submitted a sample, etc etc.

As far as SOCOM, they generally don't carry anything they want, they just have a wider choice.

On the double tap, I've heard the same kind of thinking before, IE: With a 9mm you need a lot of bullets, 2 shots make up for it, etc etc.
That just doesn't wash..

Every weapon I've ever been trained to use and issued, 9mm, .40, ,45, 12ga, 5.56, 7.62, 50BMG, required two shots to the body.

The idea that one 45 does the work of 2 or 3 9mm or .40's doesn't wash with me. I want a 9 or 40 for more capacity, not to make up for the smaller caliber, but to allow me to engage more adversaries before I need to reload, or to engage any adversaries for as long as it takes, before reloading.

BTT, stick with what you have, until you can afford to make the swap, and swap to what you want, not what you can get or is available, or you'll never stop regretting it.

Bob

SloaneRanger

12-21-08, 15:18

Thanks Guys..

All good advice.....

The glocks are now gone........Woohoo. In was ready for a change up anyway.

I have the PPK in .380 sstill o I am not completely "naked" altogether. Just in a Zohan "Disco! Disco! thong:D

BTW wasn't necessarily implying that a 230 gr .45acp was worth 2 9mm hits per se merely that getting 'thwacked' twice instantaneously with two rounds from a 9mm should definitely knock your dick in the dirt.

I know have to decide between an HK in 9mm or .45acp or a Sig 226 in 9mm.

Thanks

SR

HK45

12-21-08, 15:52

Ah don't buy a Sig their quality control and parts quality sucks these days. Never thought I would say that. Love the HKs but be prepared for minimal parts availability and customer service. Just buy an M&P or Glock in 9mm and your done. Actually buy two, then your done. ;) Get some training and shoot.

dtibbals

12-21-08, 17:38

Hands down by the HK45! I think HK45 needs to change his screen name to M&P lol. I have noticed a couple of guys that are such big M&P fans I wonder if they work for them or something. I do not know anyone that will question the build quality of any HK. Sure HK is more expensive. Sure there are not parts floating around like there are for the Glock but in my opinion so what. Sure I can not work on an HK as easily as I could a Glock but you decided to get rid of the Glock 40 (can't blame you). The M&P and others do not have any more parts out there then anyone else (other then Glock and 1911). You can get a lot of parts from hkspecialist.net as well as hkparts.net so there are places other then the factory. Bottom line is with HK there are going to be a less choices in holsters, sights etc but anything that you really need is available. There is much more available for the Glock etc but when you narrow down what works and what is just there for people to buy the HK has you covered. You can never go wrong with HK!

Dave

HK45

12-21-08, 18:12

dtibbals

12-21-08, 18:18

Well rock on with your bad self! You won't find parts for the newer HK's from any of the sources you mention or from HK. I have experienced this myself. There are issues with customer service. M&P parts are easily available from many sources btw. Thats why I recommend Glocks or M&P's to most people. Having said that the HK 45 is my favorite .45 in 30+ years of being issued, owning, and shooting .45's of all types. It's not the one I shoot the best, that would be the Glock 21 FS, M&P .45 or 1911 but the HK .45 has the combination of quality, fit, finish and feel that is the best in the business for me. Others may differ.

Oh I was just busting your balls. I agree that the HK45 is my favorite 45 as well. It has everything I am looking for in a 45. I am buying the Hk45c very soon as well. Your right that parts for the new HK's are not available but that will improve. No new gun has parts all over the place, we forget that many guns that we like i.e. Glocks have been around for a very long time and have a lot of aftermarket parts available most of which are not needed.

Dave

DocGKR

12-21-08, 18:19

"You can never go wrong with HK!"

I hope you are kidding...

dtibbals

12-21-08, 18:29

I hope you are kidding...

Nope not kidding at all. In the last 13 years I have used an HK from handguns to sub guns they have always been 100%. I am a fan and NOTHING you say will change my view of them.

Dave

DarrinD

12-21-08, 19:09

Thanks Guys..

All good advice.....

The glocks are now gone........Woohoo. In was ready for a change up anyway.

I know have to decide between an HK in 9mm or .45acp or a Sig 226 in 9mm.

Thanks

SR

Sloane,

I guess I missed the part where you explained not considering an M&P9? I went to an M&P9c after I sold my Glock 9mm's after 10 years of good service, the transition was seamless and my expectations were exceeded. IMHO, the M&P is the pistol that the Glock could have been and should be if they had implemented some of the upgrades mentioned in this thread and others.

If an M&P9 has been ruled out, I would go with the SIG 226 9mm.

Good Luck, and remember what we sometimes forget when buying a new pistol: spend some serious range time behind your options before forking over the cash.

SloaneRanger

12-21-08, 21:33

Darrin,
The M&P was on my list and was highly recommended. I had kind of ruled it out as I had read where they had had some teething problems and that the triggers were shite. Of course how reliable the info was I don't know. I should really do like you said and try to shoot all 3. My local range has a P226 I can rent, no HK. They may have a M&P. If they do I'll try it too.

SR

M4arc

12-22-08, 06:17

Nope not kidding at all. In the last 13 years I have used an HK from handguns to sub guns they have always been 100%. I am a fan and NOTHING you say will change my view of them.

Dave

Tone it down a bit dtribbals and be respectful. DocGKR has plenty of experience with H&Ks as well as just about everything else out there so he has a wide base of first hand experience to form his opinions from.

sigmundsauer

12-22-08, 12:00

m4arc,

Likewise, I think you may have missed the point dtribbals was making. He, too, has had enough experience with HKs to choose to rely on them. Just because someone may cite some instances of failure isn't going to shake his faith, nor would it mine.

Dtribbals isn't being disrespectful, and certainly not any more so than someone who says "I hope you are kidding..." regardless of who they are. There's always someone with more experience, but that doesn't invalidate everyone else's.

Although I'm not impressed with SIG these days, the two brands that I've owned that have amassed a nearly totally trouble free reputation are SIGs and HKs. I too would recommend that one can't go wrong with an HK, certainly not any more so than any other quality brand, and I would argue that they are generally better in most respects.

The M&P worshipping here is curious. I will agree that they are excellent shooting pistols and may prove to be the best available, but the M&P is but an infant compared to other trusted brands, and it is not without teething problems. Thus far I've yet to here of any significant teething problems with the HK45 series, P2000s, or P30s. If given a choice I will still turn to a G19 over an M&P only because they have amassed a credible reputation that goes beyond anecdotes.

Tim

DarrinD

12-22-08, 14:31

m4arc,

The M&P worshipping here is curious. I will agree that they are excellent shooting pistols and may prove to be the best available, but the M&P is but an infant compared to other trusted brands, and it is not without teething problems. Thus far I've yet to here of any significant teething problems with the HK45 series, P2000s, or P30s. If given a choice I will still turn to a G19 over an M&P only because they have amassed a credible reputation that goes beyond anecdotes.

Here's an excerpt from a test study on M&P9 reliability (62,333 rounds in 228 days) that certainly goes beyond the anecdotal:

"For those keeping track, the gun fired 62,333 rounds beginning on 22-Apr-08 and ending on 5-Dec-08, a total of 228 days, or 273.4 rounds per day.

104 total range trips, for 559.4 rounds per range day.

344 total hours on the range, for 181.2 rounds per hour."

See full report at: http://pistol-training.com/archives/998

With the exception of the trigger out of the box, I have found the M&P9 to be a superior pistol to any of the Glock 9's I owned. As for the trigger, a Pro Sear install will give the M&P a crisper trigger with a much more definite reset point. As far as value goes, I'd take an M&P over an HK any day. . . . in fact, I'd take an M&P or Glock 9 over an HK regardless of price any day. But if HK pistols work for you, let them keep working.

SloaneRanger

12-22-08, 17:16

Fire_Medic

12-22-08, 19:03

I currently own a G19 (wifes gun now), G22, and G27, with a G35 to come soon I hope. I love shooting all of them and the recoil on the .40 is not much harsher to me than the 9mm with a heavy bullet. I've had 0 issues with any Glock I've owned and last time out at the range I borrowed a buddies light to shoot on my new G22 with zero malfunctions. I've compared the chamber support on my .40 caliber Glocks to that of the ones an LEO friend of mine owns and you can clearly see the issue has been addressed. I do not doubt the reliability of the .40 Glocks, nor do I think twice about carrying them. If the G22 isn't going to last as long as the G19 then so be it. If a $400 firearm last me more than 10 years I really feel I've got my money's worth. Also, Glock parts are cheap and you can do almost all of the work on them yourself.

All that being said, it's still a ton of fun to shoot my G19 and I'm much more proficient with it since learning to master the bigger calibers.

I just enjoy to shoot period, and my preference right now is the .40. One day, when I own my own place and have adequate room to reload I will add .45ACP and 10mm just for the fun of it. I'm not an expert or LEO armorer, just a regular joe that fights fires and serves in the guard that LOVES to shoot.

At the end of the day, the ballistics differences are minimal between 9mm, .40, and .45 and it's just about personal choice, and SHOT PLACEMENT. No sense in upgrading to a bigger caliber if you can't hit the side of a barn with it.

Good luck with your new gun purchase.

IrishDevil

12-22-08, 19:40

HK and Sig don't really go well with a tight budget. Same for .40 and .45, I'd personally just go with 9mm. The only guns I'd consider if I were in your situation are the following:

Glock 17/19
Smith M&P 9/9c

If you have carry gear for the 22/23, it'll work for the 17/19.

As far as buying a specific gun in the hopes of one day buying a suppressor, I respectfully find silly. Especially when that gun is an outdated USP. Aftermarket support is almost non-existent for the USP, and usually expensive. Threaded barrels are available for the Glock and M&P, if you ever go that route.

If you have to go HK, go with a P2000 or P30, they completely outclass the USP. If you have to go Sig, I'd skip the Navy model and buy a standard 226 or 229.

My thoughts on the P2000 and P30 are that they're outstanding guns. IMO they outclass current Sigs, mainly due to personal ergo likes/dislikes.

Just my .02 by the way!

excatm76

12-22-08, 20:56

Looked at a used HK USP in .40 & .45 $649 (what they had) today as well as an new M&P9 $599 and a sig 226 Navy in 9mm $879.
If I go HK I thing I will go for the tactical as I dream of one day owing a silencer for it. I'd do an HK45 tactical over a USP but they're not out yet.

The M&P9 was nice and I am sure it would be a great gun. No offense but to me it's like comparing a Ford Mustang to a BMW M6 and a Mercedes Benz CLS550AMG. No offense, I have had 3 mustangs and love them.

Out of all of them just from a purely "How they feel in my hand" and how sexy they look, which I know are not criteria to base a purchase of a self defense pistol on....but if that Sig226 Navy was a woman she'd be Cindy Crawford.
I am in love with that pistol.
I think I am gonna go 9mm and get the sig or the HK USP tactical in 9mm. The store has one. He told me that they no longer come in the cool soft tactical case anymore:(
How much do I lose on not getting the match trigger and O ringed barrel that don't come on the 9mm USP tact. that come on the .45acp one?

Thanks

SR

I mean this as respectfully as possible so please don't take this the wrong way. I think you're basing your criteria on cool factor not usefullness. It's your dollar of course and do what you want. From your posts it would seem that you can't afford to play the trade guns a dozen times to find the one I want game. If I were you I'd post were I was loacted and see if anyone with a few of the guns you are interested in would meet you at a range with a shot timer and see what you shoot best.

I've been shooting pistols for a while now and I know that you can overcome 99% of any quality pistols flaws with practice and maintenance. A good shooter can shoot most any of the guns listed on the same course of fire and come out with about the same score when it is all said and done. Provided they have practiced with each of the weapons to the same degree and the gun fits thier hand reasonably well. But why handicap yourself? Most of us have differnt opinions on what the best gun is for us individually. However most experianced shooters you talk to will tell you the same thing "see if you can, try before you buy". I have yet to be impressed with anyones skills that picked his pistol based on how cool it looked in the shop. Look at the reasons people like Larry Vickers or Pat Rodgers recomend a particular model of gun. Reliability, accuracy, ergonomics, easy to shoot accurately and quickly. I have yet to see reputable trainer endorse a weapon simply because it looked good. Very few of them limit thier recomendations to one model or maker.

The thing is untill you shoot a gun you don't know of how it will handel in your hands. You can get an idea based on what others have said, but you will not know how it's gonna work for you. If you just want something that will hold up to hard use, work everytime and be black then pick any of the many suggestions in this thread. If you want something that will help you become a better shooter then pick the one you do best with at the range. I know you've read all this before, but it seems like you need to be reminded.

ToddG

12-22-08, 22:02

Hands down by the HK45! I think HK45 needs to change his screen name to M&P lol. I have noticed a couple of guys that are such big M&P fans I wonder if they work for them or something.

You're such an HK45 fan, do you work for Heckler & Koch?

Some people, for whatever reason, fall into the trap of thinking that their favorite gun is somehow the best gun ever. No such thing. Never will be. Works for you? Awesome. Works for me? Even better. :cool:

ToddG

12-22-08, 22:16

The M&P worshipping here is curious. I will agree that they are excellent shooting pistols and may prove to be the best available, but the M&P is but an infant compared to other trusted brands, and it is not without teething problems. Thus far I've yet to here of any significant teething problems with the HK45 series, P2000s, or P30s. If given a choice I will still turn to a G19 over an M&P only because they have amassed a credible reputation that goes beyond anecdotes.

I don't see the M&P worship here. If anything, the most worshipped guns on this forum, and on most non-brand specific forums, are the 1911 and the G19. Most of us recommended the OP buy a G19, you might notice, including quite a few who own M&Ps.
There are probably 10-20 times as many M&P45's in owners' hands as HK45s. I'd bet you there are close to 50 times as many M&P9's in owners' hands as P30's. Show me some people who have verifiable records proving they've put 50k rounds through a HK45 or P30 and show me 100 people who've put 10k plus through those guns and then we'll compare breakage rates, etc.
If you don't believe the P2000 had both teething problems and some continuing problems, you're not on the right distro lists.

Personally, I think HK makes great guns. I've often said that the HK45 would be one of my top two picks for a gun in that caliber, and the P30 would likely be my choice if I were to go back to a DA/SA gun (though the feel and reset of the trigger leaves more than a little to be desired). A P30 LEM will probably end up in my training battery one of these days.

POF.Ops

12-23-08, 00:26

I won't own a Glock. I don't care what anyone says I just don't like them. I owned ONE. I'm sure they are fine pistols but they just don't do it for me. The HK45 feels too bulky for me. Great gun but it's not for me. I'm a 1911 guy and the M&P45 5" with an Insight Procyon mounted on it is my nightstand pistol. BTW, my sig only lists some of the guns I own so people have a general idea of where my tastes lie.

dtibbals

12-23-08, 13:15

You're such an HK45 fan, do you work for Heckler & Koch?

Some people, for whatever reason, fall into the trap of thinking that their favorite gun is somehow the best gun ever. No such thing. Never will be. Works for you? Awesome. Works for me? Even better. :cool:

OMG I wish I worked for them, it would be a dream job just as working for a few others. Do you work for S&W? Like I posted earlier I have 13 years worth of using many different HK products. They have proven themselves over time to me and yes I am a fan and I will admit it. Just as you are of the M&P. I read your website and found your testing of the M&P very interesting and I can see why YOU are a fan of the gun. Greg Bell and others have done a lot of a testing like this of HK products and have had good results to date. My HK45 purchased about a year ago and is one of the first 1000 built has been 100% and just hit the 10k round mark. So yes I have shot it that much in a year and only cleaned it twice I believe (I really hate cleaning guns). Larry V would yell at me I am sure for not lubing it like he suggest you should. I have not taken the time nor spent my personal money to shoot 65k rounds through my gun in a few months but I do not feel that I need to prove anything to myself about the HK45 or other HK's that I own. I am NOT saying you did, I am glad people like you and Greg B and others take the time and spend the money to do such testing. It makes for a fun read that is for sure!

I have NEVER said the M&P sucks, is bad or not to buy one. I have however said that my experience with them and what I have watched in person of M&P issues I find it hard for me to move to that platform from weapons that I have faith in and have never had an issue.

This really becomes a Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge issue. At the end of the day I trust and like what I shoot and when someone ask for opinions that is what they are going to get. He will then have to read through all the opinions and mine is better then yours and figure out what works best for him. At the end of the day he should be handling and shooting these different guns if at all possible and developing his own opinion.

As we all know you can talk about quality this and that etc but it is a very personal choice. As long as you choose a good platform and you like it you should be able to be successful with it.

I will admit when I have seen the issues with the M&P by people who bought them, I feel the trigger and was shocked at how crappy it was and then just look at the gun and see how much it looks like a Sigma I have no desire to spend my money on one to see if I like it. It comes down to if it isn't broke why fix it? All of my HK's, Glocks, Springfields and yes a couple of S&W all work and do what I expect them to do. The M&P nor many others have given me any reason to change from that.

Happy Holidays and Shooting Everyone!

DarrinD

12-23-08, 13:53

I have noticed a couple of guys that are such big M&P fans I wonder if they work for them or something. I do not know anyone that will question the build quality of any HK.

I think you missed ToddG's point. You imply above that the only reason a "couple of guys" would be such fans of the M&P is because they work for them. You phrase it in a clear derogatory way. Again, I think you missed the subtle comment to expose your own bias.

SloaneRanger

12-23-08, 18:47

Guys..

Just to address some points/comments directed my way..

IrishDevil. Fair points and I thank you for your honest opinion. In response I would say that if I should add a silencer at a later date which I will (if they're still legal then), I look at it this way, why pay an extra $250 or so for a threaded barrel at that time as well as the tax stamp and can itself and have a useless paperweight of a non-threaded one when I could plan ahead and just get the threaded one upfront and be looking at a $700 investment for a can instead of a $1000 one? I guess it would boil down to how seriously I planned to add the silencer. I am a believer of the it is"better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it" doctrine. So that is my reason for justifying my line of thinking on that. Others may well be different.

With regard to the reliability of the Glocks and the .40 cal Glocks, in particular, while I don't doubt that I may have been fine with the G22 & G23 it is all water under the bridge now since they're already deep sixed. I have no plans to go back to the Glock line up at this time. I never shot them well anyway. With my little PPK in .380 I put 7 shots in quick succession inside 3" @ 25ft which was better than I was ever able to do with my gocks.

With regard to buying for the "cool" factor. That also is another fair point. The reason why the "sexy" p226 in question is not already in my arsenal is that I want to make sure that good tactical judgement is nor overwhelmed by an impulsive decision to buy what I personally consider a "sexy" gun. That is why I am here-seeking the opinion of those of you who are industry experts, trainers or operators who jump the rail and put your lives on the line everyday, or at least have done so in the past. I have the utmost respect for your opinion and have every intention of making my decision based upon the feedback I get.

With regard to the finances I have $925 after the sale of the Glocks and mags and can get what I want so I am not scrimping to buy the more expensive pistols. So lets take the $$ part out of the equation. Now that being said, my wife would pistol whip me of I came home with a $2300 Ed Brown 1911 so a $1000 or so is the budget, and I believe a workable one. I would like to get the best combat/Self Defense/SHTF/Katrina handgun that I could for that.

I do feel at this stage that I am going to go with 9mm as my caliber of choice and I am down to a Sig P226 of some variation (I like the navy and it is less than a $50 upcharge from shat I have seen) or an HK of some variation. I had decided on the HK USP 9SD but may look at another model if those are superior.

Palmguy

12-23-08, 18:50

Unless something has changed recently, the current P226 Navy guns are no different than a "standard" P226 save the little anchor engraved on the slide.

Is that $1k budget inclusive of additional magazines, any holsters you may need and ammunition to feed it; or is it just for the gun?

Tom_Jones

12-23-08, 20:11

deleted

DarrinD

12-23-08, 20:44

I am hesitant to make to make this statement, but regarding your statement that you "had read where [M&Ps] had had some teething problems and that the triggers were shite". It is my opinion that most people that make such comments about triggers simply can't shoot and don't understand the fundamentals of marksmanship. I would consider their advice to be of limited value.

While a great trigger might help a good shooter to shoot better, it will only allow a poor shooter to suck slightly less.

I understand what you're trying to say, but when the M&P's first came out I thought that their triggers were indeed crap. They have become progressively better, and though not comparable to a tuned 1911's trigger, they are close. The M&P only needs the Pro Sear to get a trigger reset comparable to a Glock's trigger.