View Full Version : The great shotgun urban myth
So I am sitting in my shop today and in walks a twenty something girl with her parents. She has been looking for a gun for self defense (not CCW) and wanted to see what we had to offer. We show her M&P's, snubby revolvers, Walther PPS and some other odds and ends.
She then asks about shotguns. I explain some of the issues with them for home defense and ask her why she was interested in them (as most 115lbs girls have little interest in shooting these). She tells us that the other gun stores she had visited told here that this was the best choice for her.
Once I heard this, I asked her if they told her that the sound of racking the shotgun would scare off the bad guy?? She said yes! I said did they also tell you that you do not have to aim a shotgun either? She said yes! :rolleyes:
So yet again, my fellow gun store owners are perpetuating two of the biggest defensive lies ever told. :mad:
C4
Jay Cunningham
12-13-08, 15:31
Was she hot?
Was she hot?
I cannot comment on such things as the Minister of Interior is always watching. ;)
C4
Jay Cunningham
12-13-08, 15:39
10 - 4
(I'll take that as a "yes.")
I cannot comment on such things as the Minister of Interior is always watching. ;)
Translation: Yes
A shotgun is actually a good choice for a lot of people. They're inexpensive, require little in the way of maintenance, easier to aim than a handgun, and have relatively simple manuals of arms, and substantially greater lethality than a handgun.
A 115# girl can handle a 20g shotgun easily with minimal training ... certainly no more training than she'd need to be equally competent with a semiauto pistol.
And while I'd certainly never count on the sound of a round being racked into the chamber to stop a determined BG in his tracks, who among us hasn't heard that sound unexpectedly and immediately switched to high alert? It's distinctive and even if it just scares off the mildly motivated, that beats the crap out of getting robbed, raped, or even having to go through the hassle of shooting someone in your home, doesn't it?
I think that used car dealers and personal injury lawyers probably sit around and tell "gun shop employee/owner" jokes at their parties. :rolleyes:
Failure2Stop
12-13-08, 16:05
Todd brings up a good discussion point.
When I read Grant's post I was immediately struck by the stupidity of the reasons stated by the others, of course. But then I started rolling the various options through my head.
What would I recommend a 20 something 115 lb woman for a HD gun? And of course, cost is a consideration.
We all know that a handgun is more difficult to achieve markmanship proficiency than a long-gun. While EBRs fill the job well, frankly they are a bit scary to most first-gun females and relatively expensive. Shotguns offer very good terminal performance and when properly sized are not too difficult to manipulate. I think the 870 20 ga youth model would be pretty good.
I am of the mind that a shotgun may be a very good choice, as long as appropriate training is sought.
Translation: Yes
A shotgun is actually a good choice for a lot of people. They're inexpensive, require little in the way of maintenance, easier to aim than a handgun, and have relatively simple manuals of arms, and substantially greater lethality than a handgun.
A 115# girl can handle a 20g shotgun easily with minimal training ... certainly no more training than she'd need to be equally competent with a semiauto pistol.
And while I'd certainly never count on the sound of a round being racked into the chamber to stop a determined BG in his tracks, who among us hasn't heard that sound unexpectedly and immediately switched to high alert? It's distinctive and even if it just scares off the mildly motivated, that beats the crap out of getting robbed, raped, or even having to go through the hassle of shooting someone in your home, doesn't it?
You are assuming that the girl could hold the shotgun up. This one could barely shoulder it. She has also never fired one and the recoil would most likely scar her forever.
The best choice for a defensive weapon is one that you will practice with. This person is NOT going to go out and fire a couple hundred rounds of shotgun ammo.
C4
A properly set up age/size-appropriate shotgun (like the 20g Youth mentioned by F2S), with light loads, is every bit as easy to learn on as a handgun. It's also substantially less likely to get pointed in an unsafe direction (much easier to point a handgun at yourself than a 18-20" bbl shotgun).
In about an hour you can teach a non-gun person to load a shotgun, fire it, and keep it in a safe but ready condition. In the event of danger, all she has to do is rack a round in the chamber, shoulder the gun, and get a long-barreled shoulder weapon properly aligned on a close range target. Pull the trigger. Let the little lead balls do the rest.
The odds of needing multiple shots is far less. If anyone wants to argue that a decent 20g buck load is no more lethal than a handgun round, have at it.
I do not think the shotgun is an ideal home defense weapon. But it is a perfectly good alternative, and a superior one for folks with minimal training.
... if they told her that the sound of racking the shotgun would scare off the bad guy??
....
C4
Hey, it worked for me once. Someone at about 1 AM was trying to pull the door off the hinges. I got next to the door and "racked" my 870. Next thing I heard was the guy beat feet off the front porch.
A properly set up age/size-appropriate shotgun (like the 20g Youth mentioned by F2S), with light loads, is every bit as easy to learn on as a handgun. It's also substantially less likely to get pointed in an unsafe direction (much easier to point a handgun at yourself than a 18-20" bbl shotgun).
In about an hour you can teach a non-gun person to load a shotgun, fire it, and keep it in a safe but ready condition. In the event of danger, all she has to do is rack a round in the chamber, shoulder the gun, and get a long-barreled shoulder weapon properly aligned on a close range target. Pull the trigger. Let the little lead balls do the rest.
The odds of needing multiple shots is far less. If anyone wants to argue that a decent 20g buck load is no more lethal than a handgun round, have at it.
I do not think the shotgun is an ideal home defense weapon. But it is a perfectly good alternative, and a superior one for folks with minimal training.
The recoil of shotguns (even 20ga) is too much for a lot of female shooters. The added complexity of the safety and racking the shotgun is also too much complexity as well IMHO.
A good snubby revolver or G-Lock/MP is a much simplar tool I think and if she decided to get her CCW, she is good to go already and does not have to buy another weapon.
C4
Hey, it worked for me once. Someone at about 1 AM was trying to pull the door off the hinges. I got next to the door and "racked" my 870. Next thing I heard was the guy beat feet off the front porch.
Or he heard/saw someone coming and left. You don't know.
A serious murderer or rapist is NOT going to run in fear from the sound of a shotgun being racked (unless maybe it is pointed at them).
C4
Grant -- I've never found an adult who was incapable of handling a 20g shotgun with a little training. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. I've met far more women who'd struggle with the DA pull on a revolver.
I'd also argue that the manual of arms even on a gun like a Glock/M&P is far more complicated and prone to user-induced problems than a shotgun. As for the safety, it's a non-issue. Keep the gun chamber empty with the safety off. When the shooting is all over, rack the gun back into chamber empty condition.
It's certainly true that having a handgun will make things easier down the road if she chooses to CCW.
A serious murderer or rapist is NOT going to run in fear from the sound of a shotgun being racked (unless maybe it is pointed at them).
I would agree that someone intent on causing specific harm to a specific person may not run away just because he hears the sound of a shotgun. But in general terms, criminals are predators searching for the weakest prey. A threat indicator like a shotgun being loaded is certainly likely to make most of them rethink their prey selection.
If you're worried about assassins, sure, giving away your position and all that is a bad idea. But as I said earlier, even if it only works some of the time, it's better than shooting someone.
edited to add: I've got a 12g Simunition kit. I can tell you from numerous personal experiences that when students or role players hear the shotgun being racked on the other side of a wall or door, it immediately causes folks to reassess their threat level. Again, if you're worried about being attacked by a team of trained ninja assassins, you probably don't want to give them warning. If you're a typical home owner living in suburbia, the meth addict who picked your house because you have the nicest furniture visible through the windows is probably not quite as motivated.
Grant -- I've never found an adult who was incapable of handling a 20g shotgun with a little training. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. I've met far more women who'd struggle with the DA pull on a revolver.
I'd also argue that the manual of arms even on a gun like a Glock/M&P is far more complicated and prone to user-induced problems than a shotgun. As for the safety, it's a non-issue. Keep the gun chamber empty with the safety off. When the shooting is all over, rack the gun back into chamber empty condition.
It's certainly true that having a handgun will make things easier down the road if she chooses to CCW.
I shoot a 20ga shotgun for upland bird and have had female shooters shoot it and hand it back to me "no thank you!" I just think that the length of stocks, weight and complexity of "knobs, button and charmbering of round" is often times a lot for them to do under stress.
I showed here my M&P with the X300 and Devgru switch along with CT laser grips. She grabbed the weapon and got illumination and designation at the same time. She could also activate the light/laser with just one hand (allowing her to open doors and do other things). Being able to mount a light on home defense gun is EXTREMELY important. Having a laser on it also allows a person that shoots very little to hit what they want.
There are VERY few options for mounting a light/laser on a shotgun and most anyting worth using is pricey.
C4
Or he heard/saw someone coming and left. You don't know.
A serious murderer or rapist is NOT going to run in fear from the sound of a shotgun being racked (unless maybe it is pointed at them).
C4
Doubt very seriously that I was going to be raped, and sure as hell wasn't going to be murdered. Yeah, I'll give you that he may have heard/seen something, but I kinda doubt it based on the time line. He was yanking away at the screen door as I was running to the shotgun and starting on the door when I racked it. I was at best 2~2 1/2 feet from him, so I have little doubt he heard "something". Regardless as soon as the shotgun cycled, the door quit making noise and I heard him hit the railing on the way off the porch. Would I rely strictly on the "distinctive sound" to be the sole deterrent. No way. But given the alternative of shooting him as he trespassed, I'll gladly take his departure instead. Would I have shot him. I like to think so, but fortunately for him, I'll never know for sure.
I would agree that someone intent on causing specific harm to a specific person may not run away just because he hears the sound of a shotgun. But in general terms, criminals are predators searching for the weakest prey. A threat indicator like a shotgun being loaded is certainly likely to make most of them rethink their prey selection.
If you're worried about assassins, sure, giving away your position and all that is a bad idea. But as I said earlier, even if it only works some of the time, it's better than shooting someone.
edited to add: I've got a 12g Simunition kit. I can tell you from numerous personal experiences that when students or role players hear the shotgun being racked on the other side of a wall or door, it immediately causes folks to reassess their threat level. Again, if you're worried about being attacked by a team of trained ninja assassins, you probably don't want to give them warning. If you're a typical home owner living in suburbia, the meth addict who picked your house because you have the nicest furniture visible through the windows is probably not quite as motivated.
The problem with the "shotgun chambering" theory is that you are making several assumptions. First, that the bad guy can hear you do it. Second, that they can recognize that sound as ONLY coming from a shotgun.
C4
Doubt very seriously that I was going to be raped, and sure as hell wasn't going to be murdered. Yeah, I'll give you that he may have heard/seen something, but I kinda doubt it based on the time line. He was yanking away at the screen door as I was running to the shotgun and starting on the door when I racked it. I was at best 2~2 1/2 feet from him, so I have little doubt he heard "something". Regardless as soon as the shotgun cycled, the door quit making noise and I heard him hit the railing on the way off the porch. Would I rely strictly on the "distinctive sound" to be the sole deterrent. No way. But given the alternative of shooting him as he trespassed, I'll gladly take his departure instead. Would I have shot him. I like to think so, but fortunately for him, I'll never know for sure.
He most likely was not hell bent on doing you hard then.
My house is brick with steel doors. If you racked shotgun in my house and I was outside, I would NEVER hear it.
What I am saying is that people that choose a shotgun for defense solely because of the "sound it makes when I chamber a round" are stupid.
C4
The problem with the "shotgun chambering" theory is that you are making several assumptions. First, that the bad guy can hear you do it. Second, that they can recognize that sound as ONLY coming from a shotgun.
Again, we're confusing things here. I never said that racking a round into a shotgun was going to end every fight.
The point, as I demonstrated with my SimFX examples and as No.6 relayed from personal experience, is that if the BG hears it and if the BG identifies the sound you may stave off what would otherwise become a violent encounter that could easily result in your incarceration, legal expenses, massive media attention, etc.
The same exact thing is true for using a laser. Do I count on the little red dot to induce compliance with every living being it touches? Of course not. But enough folks have seen it help gain compliance that I'm not going to ignore its usefulness.
I carry 124gr +p Gold Dots in my pistol. I'm sure you can find legitimate stories where someone was shot with one and it didn't cause instantaneous cessation of hostility. Doesn't mean my choice of ammo is bad just because it isn't 100% effective.
He most likely was not hell bent on doing you hard then.
My house is brick with steel doors. If you racked shotgun in my house and I was outside, I would NEVER hear it.
What I am saying is that people that choose a shotgun for defense solely because of the "sound it makes when I chamber a round" are stupid.
C4
I agree with you on all points. The house I was living in at the time was a wood frame house, wood clapboard exterior and questionable amount of insulation in the walls. I live in a brick/steel door house these days.
I've since sold the 870 and rely on my AR carbine for home protection and I really have my doubts that a bad guy would hear the charging handle cycle, since I always have a round chambered at night. Like I said in the post before, would I rely on the "distinctive sound". No way.
On a side note, I sure will be glad when I can trade my 16" carbine that I'm using now for that 12" LMT SBR MRP that I'm getting from you. :D Check your PM if you would.
Again, we're confusing things here. I never said that racking a round into a shotgun was going to end every fight.
The point, as I demonstrated with my SimFX examples and as No.6 relayed from personal experience, is that if the BG hears it and if the BG identifies the sound you may stave off what would otherwise become a violent encounter that could easily result in your incarceration, legal expenses, massive media attention, etc.
The same exact thing is true for using a laser. Do I count on the little red dot to induce compliance with every living being it touches? Of course not. But enough folks have seen it help gain compliance that I'm not going to ignore its usefulness.
I carry 124gr +p Gold Dots in my pistol. I'm sure you can find legitimate stories where someone was shot with one and it didn't cause instantaneous cessation of hostility. Doesn't mean my choice of ammo is bad just because it isn't 100% effective.
I just wouldn't even list "racking the shotgun" as a REAL reason to buy a shotgun as a defensive weapon. That is all I am saying. It ranks right up there with people saying that the XS big dot is faster. :rolleyes:
C4
I just wouldn't even list "racking the shotgun" as a REAL reason to buy a shotgun as a defensive weapon. That is all I am saying. It ranks right up there with people saying that the XS big dot is faster. :rolleyes:
Now that's funny! :cool:
Agreed, I wouldn't list "racking" as a reason to opt for the shotty over something else.
What I am saying is that people that choose a shotgun for defense solely because of the "sound it makes when I chamber a round" are stupid.
C4
right on!!!! do any companies make a pump 410 ?I have seen and shot a bolt action 410 .I think a 115lb girl could do well with a 410
There is another factor for both males and females. A female relative of mine purchased a 20 gauge on advice from "experts". The first time she had the dogs barking and the motion light came on in the middle of the night she went to check and left the shotgun in the closet because she was self conscious about prowling about with a shotgun. She said the next door neighbors wouldn't understand. (Yeah, I know there are other serious issues here.)
I fixed her up with a Ruger 101 and guess what? The next time she had to check for prowlers in the middle of the night she had the handgun in her hand. In her head, the handgun is less noticeable and she will actually retrieve and carry it.
It's not a good mindset, but many people feel weird packing a shotgun around the house or yard but will carry a handgun. Any handgun on the person is a lot better than the long gun left in the closet.
Derek_Connor
12-13-08, 17:52
In recent years, hasn't there been documentation putting light on the data showing home invasions are being done by 2+ people, on average?
I dont have this data first hand, I do remember reading it, wether or not it was a credible source I cannot verify.
After I read this thread, I've done some very minimal research in Jacksonville, FL alone, where alot of invasions have been conducted by more than one person in the last 3 years.
With that said, depending on the shotgun, you have 7+1 with most popular setups?
I wouldn't feel comfortable selling a firearm with only 8 rounds in it as a home defense weapon...
But, alas, i do not sell firearms....;)
right on!!!! do any companies make a pump 410 ?I have seen and shot a bolt action 410 .I think a 115lb girl could do well with a 410
Mossberg makes one. http://www.galleryofguns.com/Genie/Default.aspx?item=50359&mfg=Mossberg&mdl=All&cat=2&type=Shotgun&cal=410+Gauge&fin=Blue&sit=Bead
I have one and I can say that the spreader choke does work somewhat. I mean at close ranges the pattern is still small, but it does get some spread. I would say that the gun would be great for someone small statured. The gun is fairly light and the stock is real short. That being said I'm not sure that a .410 would be a very good choice for home defense.
Wouldn't a 6920 end this discussion. Compact, low recoil, high capacity, able to defeat body armor and proven terminal effectiveness.
My opinion runs counter to many...but being and RO and teaching many first timers, day in and day out...here are my observations.
1) I can teach a timid first timer to hit a target much more easily, and with far better hit %'s with a 20ga than I can with a pistol.
A long gun with simple sights is pretty easy to pickup and point. A 20+" barrel with a bead isn't overly difficult to line up. I use my fist pushing into their shoulder to simulate how tightly they need to pull it in before they press the trigger, and I don't think I've ever had someone take one shot and walk away, after I prepped them.
2) I can teach "women" to hit the vitals on a B-27 easier with Glock than I can with a small revolver.
So many people try and push women into revolvers because "they're simple" and they don't have to learn the buttons and switches on autos.....It takes me just as long to teach controls as it does to get someone hitting reliably well with a J-frame.
As for the whole "not being strong enough to rack it"...I find those same people can't press double action revolver trigger too well, either. When you teach someone to bring the gun in close to their body, and use both arms in opposition, most everyone can rack an auto.
3) No matter how you cut it...time and energy needs to be invested in order to utilize any weapon effectively.
With J-frames, it's grip, using crap sights, and trigger control (ignoring reloads). With autos, it's grip, slide lock and mag release, and tap-rack. With a shotgun, it's how to mount the gun and manage recoil.
I would be inclined to advocate the 20ga though, as it is a little more intuitive for a first timer to aim, it offers a ballistic advantage to the shooter, and the manual of arms is very simple. IMO.
Stretz Tactical Inc
12-13-08, 19:23
Wouldn't a 6920 end this discussion. Compact, low recoil, high capacity, able to defeat body armor and proven terminal effectiveness.
I was in a gun store a month ago when a cop, who had a perp he had recently arrested, show up at his house and fire a round into his house. He wanted a shotgun for his wife for home defense while he was at work and I said why not an ar15, for all the above reasons, plus patterning of shot/over penetration of slugs and he said "because I want a shotgun". I know some cops I have worked with over the years think that the shotgun posses magic powers and don't want to hear another word.
In recent years, hasn't there been documentation putting light on the data showing home invasions are being done by 2+ people, on average?
I dont have this data first hand, I do remember reading it, wether or not it was a credible source I cannot verify.
After I read this thread, I've done some very minimal research in Jacksonville, FL alone, where alot of invasions have been conducted by more than one person in the last 3 years.
With that said, depending on the shotgun, you have 7+1 with most popular setups?
I wouldn't feel comfortable selling a firearm with only 8 rounds in it as a home defense weapon...
But, alas, i do not sell firearms....;)
We are seeing more than one bad guy in home invasions. It is an alarming trend.
C4
Wouldn't a 6920 end this discussion. Compact, low recoil, high capacity, able to defeat body armor and proven terminal effectiveness.
Yes, but you are again talking about a lot of training (lot's of knobs and switches).
C4
I was thinking about all the "rack the slide to scare away the bad guy" comments and thought to myself, isn't "GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT!" or "I HAVE GUN!" a much better option??
C4
I see Grants original post as pointing out that the sales person at the other gunshop saw a potential easy sale walk into the door, and regurgutated the standard gunshop BS regarding shotguns to a novice without giving it a second of thought.
Not only is this a dishonest practice for a firearm saleman to do, it is also recklessly unsafe and dangerous to advise a novice potential buyer with little to no training of such misinformation.
There is no doubt that the shotgun is a viable self/home defense tool, but shotgun specific training is mandatory.
Jay Cunningham
12-13-08, 20:15
I am getting the urge to take a shotgun class - anyone else?
Derek_Connor
12-13-08, 20:17
We are seeing more than one bad guy in home invasions. It is an alarming trend.
C4
If thats becoming more of a national average, I'd imagine someone who is even EXTREMELY well trained in the Shotgun, would rather want an AR.
Just a guess...
In the cases where the sound of a shotgun being loaded has driven away the intruder I would guess that any sound would have driven them away. As someone else said most bad guys are looking for an east target and just knowing that someone knew they were there, and that they had lost their element of surprise, could be enough to make them move on. Just my opinion, though.
My wife shot my 870P from the hip; 12GA low-recoil Federal Tactical load LE 132-00 9 pellet 00 buck. She has no problem racking the slide and the 870P is ready to go with 5 in the magazine, chamber empty, hammer down, safety off.
Derek_Connor
12-13-08, 21:08
My wife shot my 870P from the hip; 12GA low-recoil Federal Tactical load LE 132-00 9 pellet 00 buck. She has no problem racking the slide and the 870P is ready to go with 5 in the magazine, chamber empty, hammer down, safety off.
its a firearm? why are you short changing yourself the advantage of having a firearm chambered and short changing your self one round of out of 1/6?
I dont get it. :rolleyes:
I am getting the urge to take a shotgun class - anyone else?
Heck yeah, it's time for a SG class.
On the topic at hand:
- I've pointed shotguns at more than a couple of people, be they loaded with lethal or LTL ammunition. None were terribly impressed by the appearance, much less the sound. Most said, "what are you going to do, shoot me?" The old saw about racking the shotgun needs to die in favor of loud, clear verbal warnings and commands. It's BS to all but the least motivated offenders, and gun dealers.
- I know a bunch of ladies who would not only tell a pundit they were wrong about not being able to handle a shotgun, but would be downright offended. As Todd notes, a gun set up specifically for them is best. Short stocks, short barrels. Reach to the forearm is the most frequent lingering issue. The extended sporting forearms work well, as do VFGs. There are some pretty creative solutions out there.
My experience in certain venues is that lady shooters and IBOs not only make it through shotgun training, they enjoy it. Feedback is "more! more!". All are using 12ga, not 20, to boot.
- The shotgun in a home defense role, esp for the novice, is best as a hole-up/hunker-down gun. In that role, it can be more intuitively aimed and hits are likely. It does not do as well where there's a need to hide, move, gather others, escape, deploy from irregular positions, or if spaces are confined. All are likely events in home intrusions. The homeowner needing to do those things is better served by a HG. The HG also offers the ability to discreetly arm, too.
- If simplicity of operation is a primary concern, a revolver should be chosen. The SG is only deceptively less complex, but is just as confounding to the novice as any other system when it's in a state of stoppage or malfunction.
In my experiences with a large number of lady shooters over the years, those keeping a long gun in a ready condition were primarily rural folks who kept it for four-legged varmints on ag property. Most also had HGs, and identified those as their response to two-legged varmints. Urban/suburban crowds kept HGs.
its a firearm? why are you short changing yourself the advantage of having a firearm chambered and short changing your self one round of out of 1/6?
I dont get it. :rolleyes:
Known configuration, no need to fumble for the safety at o dark thirty. I have no long term experience with Remington springs like my other magazines.
Failure2Stop
12-13-08, 22:49
Just a little aside here-
Why is it that when a group of "gun guys" get together to discuss how to arm womenfolk they are discussed as if they are mentally challenged weaklings?
Women do the exact same technical jobs as men every day, and some even manage to drive a car! I can't remember the actual number, but an average automatic car has something like 10 controls required for use, while most firearms have about 5.
While the average woman has less upperbody strength than the average man it doesn't take much strength to shoulder a long-gun, at least not when it is fitted correctly. I would say that a proper modern isosceles grip is more difficult (especially if they have long nails), but like everything else, with a little practice it gets easier and easier- and traditionally women are easier to teach than men.
Women aren't anemic monkeys- properly motivated and trained, most will outshoot their conceited male partners. Not meaning to derail the topic, but sometimes we get a little over the edge with this line of discussion.
Was she hot?
Figures this would be the first reply. :D
Grant -- I've never found an adult who was incapable of handling a 20g shotgun with a little training. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. I've met far more women who'd struggle with the DA pull on a revolver.
My mother is a good example. She hasn't the finger strength or hand size to manipulate DA revolvers or semi-auto pistols. The 20-ga. shotgun with cut-to-fit stock works great. My sub-100#, senior citizen mother manages a 20-ga. loaded with #3 just fine.
I was in a gun store a month ago when a cop, who had a perp he had recently arrested, show up at his house and fire a round into his house. He wanted a shotgun for his wife for home defense while he was at work and I said why not an ar15, for all the above reasons, plus patterning of shot/over penetration of slugs and he said "because I want a shotgun". I know some cops I have worked with over the years think that the shotgun posses magic powers and don't want to hear another word.
Maybe he just wasn't happy with what he may have perceived to be an attempt to "upsell" him. It irritates me when I go into a store knowing exactly what I want and a clerk tries to sell me something other than what I want. Recent example: when I went to buy a Glock 17 and the clerk was insistent that what I really wanted was a Springfield XD.
If thats becoming more of a national average, I'd imagine someone who is even EXTREMELY well trained in the Shotgun, would rather want an AR.
Just a guess...
Not I. I fit that category and I have no issues with a shotgun to repel boarders. I'm unaware of any instance where a shotgun's ammunition capacity (6 - 8 rounds) was a factor in a failure to repel intruders in a home defense scenario. I believe that the opposite side of the shotgun mythology is the notion that the shotgun has no place in a world where AR15's exist.
I am taking this young women shooting tomorrow and I am wondering if I need to change the way I address teaching novice shooters. I don't want to scare her away from shooting so I am thinking about skipping how to use iron sights and just shooting with lasers at first. She will see better results sooner and not shy away due to poor accuracy. My plan is to start of with a 1911 .22 conversion, this will teach not to be afraid of the bang and allow me to see if she is flinching. A ball and dummy drill would be easier but I don't want to bore her. Then move on to a 9mm M&P. If she is having trouble shooting pistols I will let her shoot a 20 gauge shootgun and then she can decide which she is most comfortable with. Any recommendation for teaching the ladies.
Just a little aside here-
Why is it that when a group of "gun guys" get together to discuss how to arm womenfolk they are discussed as if they are mentally challenged weaklings?
Women do the exact same technical jobs as men every day, and some even manage to drive a car! I can't remember the actual number, but an average automatic car has something like 10 controls required for use, while most firearms have about 5.
While the average woman has less upperbody strength than the average man it doesn't take much strength to shoulder a long-gun, at least not when it is fitted correctly. I would say that a proper modern isosceles grip is more difficult (especially if they have long nails), but like everything else, with a little practice it gets easier and easier- and traditionally women are easier to teach than men.
Women aren't anemic monkeys- properly motivated and trained, most will outshoot their conceited male partners. Not meaning to derail the topic, but sometimes we get a little over the edge with this line of discussion.
OUTSTANDING post.
Just a little aside here-
Why is it that when a group of "gun guys" get together to discuss how to arm womenfolk they are discussed as if they are mentally challenged weaklings?
Women do the exact same technical jobs as men every day, and some even manage to drive a car! I can't remember the actual number, but an average automatic car has something like 10 controls required for use, while most firearms have about 5.
While the average woman has less upperbody strength than the average man it doesn't take much strength to shoulder a long-gun, at least not when it is fitted correctly. I would say that a proper modern isosceles grip is more difficult (especially if they have long nails), but like everything else, with a little practice it gets easier and easier- and traditionally women are easier to teach than men.
Women aren't anemic monkeys- properly motivated and trained, most will outshoot their conceited male partners. Not meaning to derail the topic, but sometimes we get a little over the edge with this line of discussion.
Agreed. I hope my post was not mis-interpreted. I used quotes because I think it's silly that people think men and women should be shooting different guns.
Sounds more like the Secret police! :D
I cannot comment on such things as the Minister of Interior is always watching. ;)
C4
The only time that I used a shotgun as perp-repellent it had a Surefire attached to it. When I lit up said douchebag and jacked a round into the chamber he didn't blink an eye. It could have easily been my Bushmaster (at the time :D) carbine and he probably would have done the same.
My wife has a wide variety of weapons to choose from but the G19 w/ Surefire X300 is what she has closest to her while I am away. She is comfortable with it and she can manipulate it with no problems.
John Frazer
12-14-08, 07:45
The problem with the "shotgun chambering" theory is that you are making several assumptions. First, that the bad guy can hear you do it. Second, that they can recognize that sound as ONLY coming from a shotgun.
C4
While the first condition would definitely have to occur for this to work, I'm not so sure about the second. A criminal would only have to recognize that it's the sound of some kind of gun; it just happens that a shotgun may be louder than most. I doubt the average NNMH (non-ninja meth head) is going to say to himself, "If that were a shotgun, I'd run, but it really only sounds like a pistol, so I can safely proceed with my crime."
In the 1994 congressional hearings on the semi-auto ban, a petite woman from Maryland testified that burglars fled from the sound of her chambering a round in an AR-15. (As I recall, the intruders were already in the front door, but she was up on the second floor.)
Sounds more like the Secret police! :D
Komitjet Gosudarstvjennoj Bjezopasnosti
I am taking this young women shooting tomorrow and I am wondering if I need to change the way I address teaching novice shooters. I don't want to scare her away from shooting so I am thinking about skipping how to use iron sights and just shooting with lasers at first. She will see better results sooner and not shy away due to poor accuracy. My plan is to start of with a 1911 .22 conversion, this will teach not to be afraid of the bang and allow me to see if she is flinching. A ball and dummy drill would be easier but I don't want to bore her. Then move on to a 9mm M&P. If she is having trouble shooting pistols I will let her shoot a 20 gauge shootgun and then she can decide which she is most comfortable with. Any recommendation for teaching the ladies.
Good luck and let me know how it goes!
C4
Outlander Systems
12-14-08, 08:52
For me, I feel a shotgun is too long for "inside the house" work.
YMMV.
One of my favorites, and definately fits the topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UauxacnFA4
Komitjet Gosudarstvjennoj Bjezopasnosti
Don't you know that the Committee for State Security no longer exists.:D
To put my comments in perspective
I own a couple shotguns
I have seen teenage girls kicking butt on the clays range with 12 ga's
For defensive use I see them as very much a niche weapon
That being said
The standard myths have always been, the sound of the pump action and the "you can't miss" theory
The sound has been pretty soundly :p debunked
As to the you can't miss part, it is based on hunting uses of the weapon against animals that generally expire when struck with a couple pellets
At home defense ranges the shotgun pattern is (practically) non-existent
Most people practice/train at a minimum of 25 yds (because it is a long gun) and yet very few people live in a house that has rooms that are 75 ft. long
For me to make a shot at 75' the bad guy would have to be at one end of my living room and I would have to be at the far end of the family room. Both of us would need to be flat against opposite walls of the house
Not likely:D
At normal HD ranges, I generally see one admittedly big hole through the target caused by both the pellets and the wad. A devastating wound assuming you hit what you aim at, but no more resistant to poor aiming than any other weapon
I also find short stroking a problem for people of shorter stature. Most shotguns come with too great a LOP for fighting even if you have longer arms like me. (I have a youth stock on my mossy)
And lastly, I am simply not a big fan of long guns for most home defense chores. Other than a barricade position, I believe you are best served with a one-handed weapon in the event that you need to move around.
I also find that it can be childishly simple to get inside someones arc with most long guns in tight quarters leaving them able to shoot almost anything else except you
So, in a nutshell
It is usually easier to teach someone to shoot with any long gun including a shotgun
It may not be easier to teach them to fight with the shotgun (especially at bad breath range)
I have also noticed that a lot of people get really wigged out when you question the appropriateness of a shotgun for HD:eek:
Well the shooting went fine and I didn't get muzzle swept. We started with the .22 1911 after about 20 rounds she was holding the majority of her the shots in the 0 ring on an Idpa target. She was shooting with both eyes open and had a good stance and I saw very little flinching. At this point I felt confident to move on to the M&P.
She had much less spectacular results with the M&P. The lasergrip activation button seemed to be difficult for her to engage. When she did some rather unusual things happened to her grip. corrective actions where implemented and shooting was resumed. The bulk of the problems came from flinching. All of the shooting done with the .22 didn't seem to matter and we had to start at the bottom again. Also her stance changed from a slightly leaning forward stance to a sever backwards lean. Only three rounds of the 34 fired left the cardboard, most where concentrated in the nether regions.
After she felt comfortable with 9mm I asked here if she would like to try a 20 gauge. She agreed and I made sure she was in a aggressive stance. She fired one round, hit center mass at 10 yards, but felt that it hurt her shoulder to much. I would have liked to explore this option more with her due to her immediate proficiency with the weapon, but she wasn't willing.
For me, I feel a shotgun is too long for "inside the house" work.
YMMV.
Depends on the inside the house work you're doing. If you're just going to barricade yourself in a safe room while calling 911, it's just fine.
Dave Williams
12-14-08, 10:37
Grant wasn't life easier when you didn't do walk in business back in the day?:)
Then you only had the email in and phone in idiots, not the walk in idiots.
BTW I didn't tell that guy you'd give him a discount, only a good price and to tell you I sent him:) Honest.
Dave Williams
Don't you know that the Committee for State Security no longer exists.:D
KGB by any other name....
Outlander Systems
12-14-08, 11:45
I'm with Obiwan.
I think the Shotgun's limited mobility in confined areas is its biggest drawback.
The pistol's manueverability and faster transitions to multiple indoor targets gets it my vote.
That being said, a wheel-gun ain't for HD either when you're jacked up on kidney juice and have four greasebags in your living room.
An AR would be my number one choice, but I'm back to the tight spaces issue...
For me, I feel a shotgun is too long for "inside the house" work.
YMMV.
It is way too long.
C4
Cruncher Block
12-14-08, 13:45
I've taken some time to carefully walk through the "worst case" scenario while alone in my house.
...and I mean "worst case". After all, if I'm thinking things are going to go my way, there's not much reason to think about it in the first place.
First, if I'm dealing with a surprise home invasion, I have very little time. That means I'm responding with whatever is on me or whatever I can get out of the quick-access safe. That means a handgun is most likely.
If the threat makes noise outside or does something else that tips me off, I can get to something more effective than a handgun and call for help. As an aside, this need for time has helped reinforce to me the need to shore up the deadbolts and other security.
Walking through the long gun defense, I found a few times with the pump-action when I was thinking, "Well, I'll have to hope that doesn't happen." That was a cold bucket of reality poured over my head.
Problem: One-handed operation with a pump is slow. I've trained to do it but it's still slow. A force-on-force drill once dramatically emphasized this to me. To me, this makes the self-loader a superior choice, whether shotgun or rifle.
Problem: Bad guy with body armor. It's pretty unlikely but my idea of worst case scenario rules out the "probably won't happen" dismissal. A few years back in my area, there was a case where a group killed a police officer and took his body armor.
Problem: Precise shot placement. The layout of my house and presence of young children make this a concern for me. I can put rifle sights on the shotgun and use a tight-patterning load... in order to make a shotgun do what a rifle does naturally.
This is potentially a very flammable point -- "know your target and what's beyond it". I have to ask whether anyone could stand to watch someone walk out the door with their child because of concern what a stray pellet might do. Again: "Worst Case"
The other cited points for/against shotguns have somewhat less value in my case:
Manueverability: Carbine wins but moving around to find a threat by myself is something I'm really not going to do unless absolutely necessary (e.g. threat to kids). During my house walk-through, I found too many nooks, crannies, and unexpected angles. Moreover, I could easily be shot through drywall by someone who hears me and just doesn't care about innocent bystanders.
Racking: I'm not sure the sound of chambering a round in a rifle is that much less scary than chambering a round in a pump-action shotgun. What about the sound of a semi-auto shotgun? In any case, the sound is going to communicate, "Good guy knows a bad guy is around and is prepared to defend himself." Maybe it prevents escalation, maybe it doesn't. "Worst case" says it doesn't.
Reliability: Pump actions can be short-stroked. I've done it. In fact, it seems stress is even more likely to cause such a mistake. Training and practice is the fix here but I believe that an operator-induced malfunction is still a malfunction.
Capacity: Reloading seems unlikely to me for home defense. However, I think something with more rounds in a detachable magazine has an advantage should it matter.
Just my long-winded thoughts....
Well the shooting went fine and I didn't get muzzle swept. We started with the .22 1911 after about 20 rounds she was holding the majority of her the shots in the 0 ring on an Idpa target. She was shooting with both eyes open and had a good stance and I saw very little flinching. At this point I felt confident to move on to the M&P.
She had much less spectacular results with the M&P. The lasergrip activation button seemed to be difficult for her to engage. When she did some rather unusual things happened to her grip. corrective actions where implemented and shooting was resumed. The bulk of the problems came from flinching. All of the shooting done with the .22 didn't seem to matter and we had to start at the bottom again. Also her stance changed from a slightly leaning forward stance to a sever backwards lean. Only three rounds of the 34 fired left the cardboard, most where concentrated in the nether regions.
After she felt comfortable with 9mm I asked here if she would like to try a 20 gauge. She agreed and I made sure she was in a aggressive stance. She fired one round, hit center mass at 10 yards, but felt that it hurt her shoulder to much. I would have liked to explore this option more with her due to her immediate proficiency with the weapon, but she wasn't willing.
Good job Adam (breaking her in slowly). There is not doubt that the M&P was more difficult for her to shoot, but it does not sound like she was afraid of it (which is the important part if she is going to grow as a shooter).
As I assumed, one shot from the 20ga and she handed it back to you.
C4
Grant wasn't life easier when you didn't do walk in business back in the day?:)
Then you only had the email in and phone in idiots, not the walk in idiots.
BTW I didn't tell that guy you'd give him a discount, only a good price and to tell you I sent him:) Honest.
Dave Williams
It sure was! :D
The funny thing about your friend is that he said "Dave said I would get a discount." I followed up with who the &*^&% is Dave?? :eek:
C4
Failure2Stop
12-14-08, 14:07
Realistically, how much movement inside the enclosure does one need? One man clearing is a very risky proposition, even for the highly skilled- there are simply too many times that you will have your back exposed to immediate danger areas. The safest course of action is to lock the door and barricade behind something (bed seems like a good one), rest the gun over the top of the barricade facing the door and call 911. How strong do you need to be to lay the gun on the bed and hold onto it? I am not making this statement about a particular gender, but of less than highly trained/conditioned individuals of any ilk.
The only reason I see to leave the room is to secure kids/other family mambers and bring them to the safe room. Average Joe Homeowner is ill prepared to deal with multiple adversaries in the dark in a multiple room enclosure. Even as a member of a skilled and experienced team I would not be entering a room alone, and if I had good reason to believe that the room was occupied I would be entering on a bang. If I had good reason to believe that there was an active threat in the room I would be entering after a frag (if the structure could contain it). Of course I am well aware that you aren't going to be banging or fragging your house, but I bring the issue to illustrate a point- actually working in that environment is a deadly proposition.
When I look at the problem as a whole- limited funding, minimum training, no experience, multiple complex problems, possible multiple threats, low upper body strength, solo operator, low movement requirement, and ability to call for reinforcement- I still arrive at my original conclusion.
Adam proves the point- even with assumed competant instruction the shooter was having difficulty hitting the target with a pistol. First shot from the SG was right on. It doesn't matter how easy the thing is to carry if you cant hit effectively with it. Now I am no master of instructing women, I have instructed maybe 5, and most were fairly robust, but if the military could qualify women on the M14 and M1911 before their replacement, I believe that it is the level of interest/effort that the individual invests in becoming proficient that breeds compitence. While physical stature and fitness is certainly a factor, I think that the instructor's ability to teach has far more to do with skill progression.
My view on this topic is shaped around what I listed in the "whole problem" paragraph, not a motivated and skilled user with sufficient funds to exceed the minimum. I am viewing this as a true home defense sitation (barricade), not a home offense situation (active search). I am certainly not saying that the SG is the best choice for everyone, just that it is a viable option in conjunction with a realistic self-defense in the home plan.
Realistically, how much movement inside the enclosure does one need? One man clearing is a very risky proposition, even for the highly skilled- there are simply too many times that you will have your back exposed to immediate danger areas. The safest course of action is to lock the door and barricade behind something (bed seems like a good one), rest the gun over the top of the barricade facing the door and call 911. How strong do you need to be to lay the gun on the bed and hold onto it? I am not making this statement about a particular gender, but of less than highly trained/conditioned individuals of any ilk.
The only reason I see to leave the room is to secure kids/other family mambers and bring them to the safe room. Average Joe Homeowner is ill prepared to deal with multiple adversaries in the dark in a multiple room enclosure. Even as a member of a skilled and experienced team I would not be entering a room alone, and if I had good reason to believe that the room was occupied I would be entering on a bang. If I had good reason to believe that there was an active threat in the room I would be entering after a frag (if the structure could contain it). Of course I am well aware that you aren't going to be banging or fragging your house, but I bring the issue to illustrate a point- actually working in that environment is a deadly proposition.
When I look at the problem as a whole- limited funding, minimum training, no experience, multiple complex problems, possible multiple threats, low upper body strength, solo operator, low movement requirement, and ability to call for reinforcement- I still arrive at my original conclusion.
Adam proves the point- even with assumed competant instruction the shooter was having difficulty hitting the target with a pistol. First shot from the SG was right on. It doesn't matter how easy the thing is to carry if you cant hit effectively with it. Now I am no master of instructing women, I have instructed maybe 5, and most were fairly robust, but if the military could qualify women on the M14 and M1911 before their replacement, I believe that it is the level of interest/effort that the individual invests in becoming proficient that breeds compitence. While physical stature and fitness is certainly a factor, I think that the instructor's ability to teach has far more to do with skill progression.
My view on this topic is shaped around what I listed in the "whole problem" paragraph, not a motivated and skilled user with sufficient funds to exceed the minimum. I am viewing this as a true home defense sitation (barricade), not a home offense situation (active search). I am certainly not saying that the SG is the best choice for everyone, just that it is a viable option in conjunction with a realistic self-defense in the home plan.
In a perfect world, we would be in our safe room, SWAT team on the way and pointing a shotgun at the door (read no movement). This is not the world we live in I am afraid.
Having completed tons of training (to include CQB low light/night fighting), I would never clear my own house if I did not have too. The truth is though that it NEVER goes our way and we will most likely HAVE to go out of our "safe room."
The girl hit the target, but not as well as she did with the .22 and the shotgun. I imagine that if she came back into the shop and I tried to sell her a shotgun, she would pass on it. Once people get into their mind that something hurts or that they are afraid of it, they have a hell of a time moving forward from that bad experience.
To quote Ken Hackathorn: "If someone breaks into my house the only way they are getting anything is if I don't want it any more!"
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-14-08, 14:21
A shotgun isn't really good for home defense until you put a bayonet on it ;)
The nice thing is that you have a really nice stick when you run out of ammo.
That being said, I'll take 20rnds of 9mm in my Sig P226 over a shotgun. I know less total lead, but about 3 times as many holes spread out over time.
Shotgun or pistol? Whatever you get matters less than if you have a dog. I'll take a dog and a knife, over a gun without a dog. Of course you need a real dog.
A shotgun isn't really good for home defense until you put a bayonet on it ;)
The nice thing is that you have a really nice stick when you run out of ammo.
That being said, I'll take 20rnds of 9mm in my Sig P226 over a shotgun. I know less total lead, but about 3 times as many holes spread out over time.
Shotgun or pistol? Whatever you get matters less than if you have a dog. I'll take a dog and a knife, over a gun without a dog. Of course you need a real dog.
I would argue that you do not even need a "real dog' (whatever that is), just one that lets you know someone is in the house. Remember that all dogs sound huge and mean in the dark. ;)
C4
Realistically, how much movement inside the enclosure does one need? One man clearing is a very risky proposition, even for the highly skilled- there are simply too many times that you will have your back exposed to immediate danger areas. The safest course of action is to lock the door and barricade behind something (bed seems like a good one), rest the gun over the top of the barricade facing the door and call 911. How strong do you need to be to lay the gun on the bed and hold onto it? I am not making this statement about a particular gender, but of less than highly trained/conditioned individuals of any ilk.
The only reason I see to leave the room is to secure kids/other family mambers and bring them to the safe room. Average Joe Homeowner is ill prepared to deal with multiple adversaries in the dark in a multiple room enclosure. Even as a member of a skilled and experienced team I would not be entering a room alone, and if I had good reason to believe that the room was occupied I would be entering on a bang. If I had good reason to believe that there was an active threat in the room I would be entering after a frag (if the structure could contain it). Of course I am well aware that you aren't going to be banging or fragging your house, but I bring the issue to illustrate a point- actually working in that environment is a deadly proposition.
When I look at the problem as a whole- limited funding, minimum training, no experience, multiple complex problems, possible multiple threats, low upper body strength, solo operator, low movement requirement, and ability to call for reinforcement- I still arrive at my original conclusion.
Adam proves the point- even with assumed competant instruction the shooter was having difficulty hitting the target with a pistol. First shot from the SG was right on. It doesn't matter how easy the thing is to carry if you cant hit effectively with it. Now I am no master of instructing women, I have instructed maybe 5, and most were fairly robust, but if the military could qualify women on the M14 and M1911 before their replacement, I believe that it is the level of interest/effort that the individual invests in becoming proficient that breeds compitence. While physical stature and fitness is certainly a factor, I think that the instructor's ability to teach has far more to do with skill progression.
My view on this topic is shaped around what I listed in the "whole problem" paragraph, not a motivated and skilled user with sufficient funds to exceed the minimum. I am viewing this as a true home defense sitation (barricade), not a home offense situation (active search). I am certainly not saying that the SG is the best choice for everyone, just that it is a viable option in conjunction with a realistic self-defense in the home plan.
The problem is when it is not clear if you're in the house alone or not. There have been several times when I have been awakened by a sound unsure what caused it. Now I'm not going to call 911 over what may have been a cat. So I usually grab the handgun and wait for follow up noises. I have never heard sounds that are definitely made by another person, so I go out and check just to make sure I heard what I thought I heard. That involves the use of a handgun 99% of the time.
Our "barricade gun" for the longest time was a 12ga shotgun. My wife didn't like shooting it in practice, but she understood that it was necessary. She also understood that in a real situation she wouldn't likely need to fire that many shots, and if she did adrenalin would kick in.
Now our "barricade gun" is an M1 carbine. She prefers it to the AR, so who am I to argue?
I would argue that you do not even need a "real dog' (whatever that is), just one that lets you know someone is in the house. Remember that all dogs sound huge and mean in the dark. ;)
C4
My "real dog" usually sleeps harder than I do.:(
For me, I feel a shotgun is too long for "inside the house" work.
It is way too long.
Manueverability: Carbine wins...
Ah, again the opposite side of the shotgun mythology coin: the "shotgun is too unwieldy" myth. My 870P with Hogue stock is a whopping 1.5" longer than my 14.5" barreled M4, which makes it about the exact same length as most people's 16" barreled AR15's.
This is potentially a very flammable point -- "know your target and what's beyond it". I have to ask whether anyone could stand to watch someone walk out the door with their child because of concern what a stray pellet might do.
My observations have been that most people haven't the skill to pull off a moving hostage shot regardless of the weapon system. Modern, tight patterning shotshells and knowing exactly how my shotgun patterns means I don't sweat stray pellets at any range found in my home.
My "real dog" usually sleeps harder than I do.:(
LOL. My male Springer is dead to the world. My female Springer usually roams the house at night.
C4
Ah, again the opposite side of the shotgun mythology coin: the "shotgun is too unwieldy" myth. My 870P with Hogue stock is a whopping 1.5" longer than my 14.5" barreled M4, which makes it about the exact same length as most people's 16" barreled AR15's.
This is incorrect. I have a Remy 870P Max and it is a good 5.5 inches LONGER than a 16" M4 with the stock collapsed. Sure you can mod a shotgun with some after market barrel to make it shorter, but I can mod my AR as well to make it shorter.
Commonly, shotguns have 18" barrels with stocks that are longer and than A2!
So no myth at all that shotguns are longer than AR's making the AR a much better choice.
My observations have been that most people haven't the skill to pull off a moving hostage shot regardless of the weapon system. Modern, tight patterning shotshells and knowing exactly how my shotgun patterns means I don't sweat stray pellets at any range found in my home.
I will not argue that a lot of people do not shoot all that well, but it is sure nice to have the option (of making hostage shot) than not being able to take it all.
C4
Maneuverability: Sorry, but no. If we're talking about someone who wants to walk around the house armed with the threat of multiple intruders hidden therein, the young lady who can't handle the fierce recoil of a 20g shotgun is doomed regardless of what gun you put in her hand(s). The original premiss was we're talking about someone with the lowest common denominator level of training. Checking for bumps in the night is disastrous regardless of weapon selection.
Recoil: Not to call Adam out, but the fact that a girl didn't like the recoil of a 20g shotgun when he let her shoot it is no more dispositive than when someone else hands a girl a 20g on the firing line and says "sure, try it out." As myself and others have explained from significant personal experience, with fairly minimal proper training someone can easily be taught to shoot a 20g shotgun with no pain.
Capacity: Seriously, how many home defense stories have you heard that couldn't be solved with 5 or 6 rounds of buckshot? Unless you've been targeted for assassination, exactly how many home invasion crews are going to stick around and shoot it out with you once you've killed one or two of their guys? If you think they're going to fight to avenge their "buddy" with cops screaming on the way, I think you're nuts.
Hostage shot: Again, sorry, I don't believe it. I've seen far too many people refuse to take that shot in FOF scenarios even after substantially more training than we're discussing here. Heck, I've watched people who wouldn't even say "Bang" doing inert weapon FOF in a hostage situation. But if we really did want to go down this path, I'd argue that at typical indoor fighting distance a poorly trained shooter is going to be more likely to make a hit with a long gun than a pistol ... and the expansion of the shotgun load at those distances is so small as to be almost a non-issue.
I don't think anyone is advocating the shotgun as the best all-around tactical weapon. But for a novice shooter it makes a very good home defense tool.
Todd, She was a little apprehensive when I asked her if she wanted to shoot. I don't know if the shotgun actually caused pain or if she was already afraid of it and had her mind set on not wanting to shoot it. it. I would like to get recoil pad and have her try again.
This is incorrect. I have a Remy 870P Max and it is a good 5.5 inches LONGER than a 16" M4 with the stock collapsed. Sure you can mod a shotgun with some after market barrel to make it shorter, but I can mod my AR as well to make it shorter.
Well, I guess yours truly is longer than mine. Emphasis, however, on stock collapsed. Some of us have more than T-Rex arms and need some amount of length-of-pull. ;)
We could go around and around on the issue but, it would be a waste of bandwidth. For every argument there's a tit-for-tat counterpoint. My point being that aside from the common myths, the shotgun is a viable weapon for protecting the casa. Telling people that it isn't and they need an M4/AR15 for inside the home is just as fallacious as the "all you need to do is rack it"/"you don't need to aim" nonsense.
As for the people who would deliberately choose to take a handgun over a shotgun or rifle to a fight -- well, to each their own and good luck to you.
Emphasis on stock collapsed. Some of us have more than T-Rex arms and need some amount of length-of-pull. ;)
Of course "stock collapsed." No mod needed. To get a shotgun with a shorter stock, you would have to special order one and install it. Not the case with the M4.
We could go around and around on the issue but, it would be a waste of bandwidth. For every argument there's a tit-for-tat counterpoint. My point being that aside from the common myths, the shotgun is a viable weapon for protecting the casa. Telling people that it isn't and they need an M4/AR15 for inside the home is just as fallacious as the "all you need to do is rack it"/"you don't need to aim" nonsense.
Actually there is not. I do agree that the shotgun IS an option for home defense, but there are much better options out there.
As for the people who would deliberately choose to take a handgun to a fight over a shotgun or rifle -- well, to each their own and good luck to you.
The shotgun gives you more fire power, but there are also many down sides to it.
The best weapon to use for home defense is the one you practice with the MOST. 9 times out of ten, please practice WAY more with their AR or pistol making them better choices.
C4
Todd, She was a little apprehensive when I asked her if she wanted to shoot. I don't know if the shotgun actually caused pain or if she was already afraid of it and had her mind set on not wanting to shoot it. it. I would like to get recoil pad and have her try again.
Adam -- Understood. Been there, done that. About two years ago I had to do a little demo and famfire for some foreign nationals who, wanting to look macho, brought along their secretaries. We shot pistol and some SIG 551/552. Then I brought out the LRS-2. The guys shot it fine, and one of the secretaries shot it fine. The last girl got behind the gun and she was literally in tears she was so scared it was going to hurt.
I showed her the right way to get behind the gun and assured her it would just push, not punch. She just nodded and tried to keep her co-workers from seeing she was crying.
I asked her repeatedly to quit, but she didn't want them to tease her. So I got her calmed down and showed her again exactly what to do. We probably spent 15 minutes going over how to sit at a bench and hold a rifle so it wouldn't hurt.
Finally, she was ready to break the shot. I watched and she was doing everything right. I kept coaching her. Then, literally a fraction of a second before she pulled the trigger, she turned her whole body away from the gun ... so when the gun went off it had nothing controlling its motion. The butt flew up and smacked her hard in the face.
And she started crying again. Of course.
Maneuverability: Sorry, but no. If we're talking about someone who wants to walk around the house armed with the threat of multiple intruders hidden therein, the young lady who can't handle the fierce recoil of a 20g shotgun is doomed regardless of what gun you put in her hand(s). The original premiss was we're talking about someone with the lowest common denominator level of training. Checking for bumps in the night is disastrous regardless of weapon selection.
I agree that she should NOT be "searching" her house. The fact remains that her house maybe laid out in a way that she HAS to move from her "safe room" is a reality.
Recoil: Not to call Adam out, but the fact that a girl didn't like the recoil of a 20g shotgun when he let her shoot it is no more dispositive than when someone else hands a girl a 20g on the firing line and says "sure, try it out." As myself and others have explained from significant personal experience, with fairly minimal proper training someone can easily be taught to shoot a 20g shotgun with no pain.
Adam has extensive training at the hands of Vickers, Hackathorn and you. ;) I am sure he showed her how to shoot the gun.
I have an auto loading 20ga shotgun that my 5'5, 110lbs wife does NOT like to shoot. Because she does not like to shoot it, does NOT reflect on my teaching ability one bit. She simply does not like the recoil. This goes for a lot of women. She does however shoot my M&P VERY well and is MUCH more comfortable with it.
Capacity: Seriously, how many home defense stories have you heard that couldn't be solved with 5 or 6 rounds of buckshot? Unless you've been targeted for assassination, exactly how many home invasion crews are going to stick around and shoot it out with you once you've killed one or two of their guys? If you think they're going to fight to avenge their "buddy" with cops screaming on the way, I think you're nuts.
The capacity thing to me matters not. Most people could solve the "problem" with 1-2rds. I will say though that options are ALWAYS nice and more rounds mean that you can solve more problems.
Hostage shot: Again, sorry, I don't believe it. I've seen far too many people refuse to take that shot in FOF scenarios even after substantially more training than we're discussing here. Heck, I've watched people who wouldn't even say "Bang" doing inert weapon FOF in a hostage situation. But if we really did want to go down this path, I'd argue that at typical indoor fighting distance a poorly trained shooter is going to be more likely to make a hit with a long gun than a pistol ... and the expansion of the shotgun load at those distances is so small as to be almost a non-issue.
The girl lives alone, so no hostage concerns there. As for me (or Adam), we are taking the shot. ;)
I don't think anyone is advocating the shotgun as the best all-around tactical weapon. But for a novice shooter it makes a very good home defense tool.
The shotgun MIGHT make a good choice, but ONLY if they are not recoil sensitive. It is a bad choice for too many other reasons (mounting a dot optic, mounting a light, length, etc) to be considered the "best" choice or even the second best.
To quote Vickers: "WTF do I need a shotgun for?" :D
C4
Of course "stock collapsed." No mod needed. To get a shotgun with a shorter stock, you would have to special order one and install it. Not the case with the M4.
870 Express Jr. 20-ga - 12" LOP standard, 37.25 OAL :cool:
The best weapon to use for home defense is the one you practice with the MOST. 9 times out of ten, please practice WAY more with their AR or pistol making them better choices.
True but, that's a training issue and not relative to the weapon itself. Maybe people should train more with shotguns so they're not bawling about "it hurts!". :D
Edited by Va_Dinger, please do not go there.
Anyways, I'm bowing out of this topic now. Grant, thanks for the M&P mags. They were waiting for me when I came home from the road yesterday.
Out.
870 Express Jr. 20-ga - 12" LOP standard, 37.25 OAL :cool:
True but, that's a training issue and not relative to the weapon itself. Maybe people should train more with shotguns so they're not bawling about "it hurts!". :D
Nobody trains with a shotgun like they do with a handgun or AR (for multiple reasons).
C4
John_Wayne777
12-14-08, 17:59
I think Ken Hackathorn's advice would be appropriate here:
Pistol caliber carbine. No brutal recoil. Much easier to shoot than a handgun. Effective. Very accurate especially at close range.
John_Wayne777
12-14-08, 18:04
Just a little aside here-
Why is it that when a group of "gun guys" get together to discuss how to arm womenfolk they are discussed as if they are mentally challenged weaklings?
I wouldn't say "mentally challenged weaklings" so much as "not inclined to train or practice.
It's that whole "properly motivated and trained" thing that gets in the way. None of the women even in my extended family are properly motivated to even receive training when it's offered for free. I've met lady shooters who are, but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule, in my experience.
Of course, there are lots of people with a Y chromosome who are in exactly the same boat...only they are worse because they believe that they were born knowing about guns. Just look at TOS GD....;)
I think Ken Hackathorn's advice would be appropriate here:
Pistol caliber carbine. No brutal recoil. Much easier to shoot than a handgun. Effective. Very accurate especially at close range.
I think you might be right (in this case). While I do not think an AR in 9mm is a good idea (too complex), but maybe a B. Storm??? Can believe I just said that! :eek:
C4
Failure2Stop
12-14-08, 19:00
I wouldn't say "mentally challenged weaklings" so much as "not inclined to train or practice.
Absolutely agreed, and as you said is not gender specific. It just gets under my skin when I know many women that rock anything you put in their hands. It has nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with motivation. If a woman is motivated to perform, she will, as is the inverse true with both genders.
Also agree about the pistol caliber carbines. Very low recoil and a plethora of mounting choices. I kinda forgot about them in the whole shotgun conversation. I would probably put them at the top of the list, supposing I was ever properly motivated to actually make a list.
Just look at TOS GD....;)
No thanks, not enough asprin in the world for that :p.
Nobody trains with a shotgun like they do with a handgun or AR (for multiple reasons).
On the contrary, some most certainly do.
On the contrary, some most certainly do.
Most carbine pistol schools are 300-500rds a day for 3 days. Very few of SG classes like this any more (can only think of a handful of 2 day classess).
I typically shoot 300-500 pistol and carbine rounds a week. I own a shotgun (couple actually) and might only shoot a 100rds a year with them.
Unless the ONLY weapon you are issued or have for defense is a shotgun, then you are not shooting this amount of rounds. You would also NOT be a civy (meaning someone else was paying).
C4
This is incorrect. I have a Remy 870P Max and it is a good 5.5 inches LONGER than a 16" M4 with the stock collapsed.
5.5"+ in OAL....that translates to what? Maybe 5 more degrees down you'd need to carry it through a doorway, over a 16" M4?
The shorty AR might be the best thing going for clearing rooms with a team....but for a new shooter who doesn't have any tactical training of any kind....how does the length matter in their circumstance?
So far, I haven't had any first time gun buyers, who were looking at a weapon for HD select an AR, get it SBR'ed, then go take training classes with it. ($2000 at a minimum). Plenty of handguns and shotguns have left with first timers, though.
Most carbine pistol schools are 300-500rds a day for 3 days. Very few of SG classes like this any more (can only think of a handful of 2 day classess).
I typically shoot 300-500 pistol and carbine rounds a week. I own a shotgun (couple actually) and might only shoot a 100rds a year with them.
Unless the ONLY weapon you are issued or have for defense is a shotgun, then you are not shooting this amount of rounds. You would also NOT be a civy (meaning someone else was paying).C4
Okay, I should've put a caveat in for being subject to definition of "train."
Most carbine pistol schools are 300-500rds a day for 3 days. Very few of SG classes like this any more (can only think of a handful of 2 day classess).
I typically shoot 300-500 pistol and carbine rounds a week. I own a shotgun (couple actually) and might only shoot a 100rds a year with them.
Unless the ONLY weapon you are issued or have for defense is a shotgun, then you are not shooting this amount of rounds. You would also NOT be a civy (meaning someone else was paying).
C4
On the other hand, there are a lot of people who hardly shoot anything else -- shotgun for skeet/trap/clays, for bird hunting, for deer hunting. For these people having the same, or at least similar, shotgun for HD might make a lot of sense versus an AR or handgun they don't have any interest in and probably won't shoot much (let alone train with).
I'm no expert by any means but I always sought that shotgun was one of the easier weapons to master for self defense purposes. My thought on that was that being a two handed weapon is more natural to aim properly and get hits with for someone with little to no training. Also there is an undeniable advantage of having tons of different ammo types that can be tailored to your individual needs. Also a shotgun maybe found to be more acceptable weapon to be used in self defense situation by cops, prosecutors, judges, a jury and the media.
My SG was a second firearm I decided to buy after a handgun and up to this day it is the most used gun in my safe. I think it's mostly because I shoot clay and it is cheap to shoot(wal-mart ammo is almost free:). It is also way easier to find a range nearby that will support your shooting needs - so therefore more practice. I live around greater Chicago Area and finding a rifle range closer then 1.5hrs of driving is problematic. My decision to use SG for home defense was based on my being accustomed to this gun and my reaction with it being way faster then with a pistol or a rifle. I am planning to get a few carbine classes as soon as financial situation will stabilize somewhat(read - currently unemployed) but until then I relying on my customized Mossy 590.
5.5"+ in OAL....that translates to what? Maybe 5 more degrees down you'd need to carry it through a doorway, over a 16" M4?
The shorty AR might be the best thing going for clearing rooms with a team....but for a new shooter who doesn't have any tactical training of any kind....how does the length matter in their circumstance?
So far, I haven't had any first time gun buyers, who were looking at a weapon for HD select an AR, get it SBR'ed, then go take training classes with it. ($2000 at a minimum). Plenty of handguns and shotguns have left with first timers, though.
I do not know how much CQB training you have done, but an extra 5 inches in length matters a lot when coming around a corner.
C4
I'm no expert by any means but I always sought that shotgun was one of the easier weapons to master for self defense purposes. My thought on that was that being a two handed weapon is more natural to aim properly and get hits with for someone with little to no training. Also there is an undeniable advantage of having tons of different ammo types that can be tailored to your individual needs. Also a shotgun maybe found to be more acceptable weapon to be used in self defense situation by cops, prosecutors, judges, a jury and the media.
My SG was a second firearm I decided to buy after a handgun and up to this day it is the most used gun in my safe. I think it's mostly because I shoot clay and it is cheap to shoot(wal-mart ammo is almost free:). It is also way easier to find a range nearby that will support your shooting needs - so therefore more practice. I live around greater Chicago Area and finding a rifle range closer then 1.5hrs of driving is problematic. My decision to use SG for home defense was based on my being accustomed to this gun and my reaction with it being way faster then with a pistol or a rifle. I am planning to get a few carbine classes as soon as financial situation will stabilize somewhat(read - currently unemployed) but until then I relying on my customized Mossy 590.
For most males that grew up hunting, a shotgun is something that they are comfortable with and is why they use them. The other reason is that they most likely already own it as well.
A home defense weapon should have the following things on it:
1. Flashlight
2. Red dot optic (if it is a long gun)
3. CT laser grips (if it is a handgun)
The other thing to consider when buying a home defense weapon is if you are going to practice with it or not. The weapon that you will shoot the most (read most familar with) SHOULD be the weapon you choose. If that is a shotgun that you deer/duck hunt with, then so be it.
The reason why I believe that a shotgun is a poor choice is because it is hard to mount a light and a red dot on.
P.S. Good luck with the job search.
C4
geezerbutler
12-15-08, 08:44
Just get the Taurus "Judge" and shoot .410 # 4 turkey shot and have the best of both worlds:p
So I am sitting in my shop today and in walks a twenty something girl C4
Did she at least buy me a gift certificate? ;)
Did she at least buy me a gift certificate? ;)
LOL, no but I should have given her your number. ;)
C4
Just a little aside here-
Why is it that when a group of "gun guys" get together to discuss how to arm womenfolk they are discussed as if they are mentally challenged weaklings?
Women do the exact same technical jobs as men every day, and some even manage to drive a car! I can't remember the actual number, but an average automatic car has something like 10 controls required for use, while most firearms have about 5.
While the average woman has less upperbody strength than the average man it doesn't take much strength to shoulder a long-gun, at least not when it is fitted correctly. I would say that a proper modern isosceles grip is more difficult (especially if they have long nails), but like everything else, with a little practice it gets easier and easier- and traditionally women are easier to teach than men.
Women aren't anemic monkeys- properly motivated and trained, most will outshoot their conceited male partners. Not meaning to derail the topic, but sometimes we get a little over the edge with this line of discussion.
speaking of that, why are so many women pushed into tiny revolvers as CCW weapons? i'd say an automatic handgun is much easier to shoot well than a revolver. long hard trigger pull, only 5 rounds, biting recoil... ouch. racking a slide isn't rocket science.
speaking of that, why are so many women pushed into tiny revolvers as CCW weapons? i'd say an automatic handgun is much easier to shoot well than a revolver. long hard trigger pull, only 5 rounds, biting recoil... ouch. racking a slide isn't rocket science.
I think that revolvers are recommended for many new shooters-man or woman. The key is the lack of practice. If you do not have proper form, an auto can make you pay. If you limp wrist an auto will not cycle, but a revolver will still fire. Shooters with less muscle need proper form to be able to work the slide on a semi-auto, but not to get the cylinder open on a revolver.
I also notice alot of new shooters not having a proper grip. A common problem is that many want to wrap their weak thumb across the back of the strong hand. With an auto, this is going to result in blood and pain when the slide takes two gouges out of the thumb. A revolver is much more forgiving of improper technique. If a woman or man is going to practice (and I definately recommend it), I believe that the auto is the best choice, otherwise the revolver is best.
Robb Jensen
12-17-08, 06:11
How about a M1 Carbine?
I think with an optic and light an M1 Carbine would make a great home defensive long gun. With an UltiMak rail, Aimpoint Micro and a VLTOR offset mount with a SureFire G2 it would be pretty sweet. Sort of how I have my Arsenal 106 setup.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/AK106FR3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/AK106FR2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/AK106FR.jpg
Jay Cunningham
12-17-08, 06:15
http://ultimak.com/gallery/30CarbAimpoint3.jpg
Littlelebowski
12-17-08, 06:41
My wife is tiny (4'8") and right now relies upon a 12 gauge pump. It knocked her around a little at the range but with low recoil buckshot rounds and the plethora of holes in the target made her feel confident with the weapon and that's all that really counts. As far CQB trained ninjas getting inside the arc of the shotgun and it being too long for sweeping, well this is an internet gun board and people "what if, what if, what if" way way too much. I've been to the Marine CQB instructor's course and I feel fine with my wife wielding a shotgun. Maybe I just don't have enough of an active imagination.
+1 on the ladies having a hard time with triggers. My wife simply cannot handle many handgun triggers. She can barely get her finger on most of them and a 7lb pull might as well be a 14lb pull for her. Before I hear the howls of "work out," I'll be t she works out more than most of you. So now she shoots a pistol she can shoot, on which she can manipulate the controls effectively and pull the trigger in a normal way (Springfield EMP). Note: her middle finger is the same size as my little finger.
The M1 carbine idea and PCC (pistol caliber carbine) are making me ponder things. It's kind of hard to find commercial self defense .30 carbine ammo, no? Maybe I need to look at 9mm carbines for the old lady.
I also have a "real" dog by most people's standards :cool: You tell me.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/DSC00441.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/photo.jpg
Robb Jensen
12-17-08, 06:44
[Bob Dole voice] Bob Dole says hi ! [/Bob Dole voice] ;)
Jay Cunningham
12-17-08, 06:53
The M1 carbine idea and PCC (pistol caliber carbine) are making me ponder things. It's kind of hard to find commercial self defense .30 carbine ammo, no? Maybe I need to look at 9mm carbines for the old lady.
Cor-Bon makes a load that is supposedly effective, but I have no hard data on that.
Littlelebowski
12-17-08, 06:54
[Bob Dole voice] Bob Dole says hi ! [/Bob Dole voice] ;)
He sure was cool in person. Sort of a Zen like calm. You'll never find him without a pen in his hands.
Alpha Sierra
12-17-08, 09:23
Also her stance changed from a slightly leaning forward stance to a sever backwards lean.
I am so utterly puzzled by why people feel the need to do this when shooting anything larger than a rimfire. And not just women.
I did not read all the pages but I did the first page. I have a few issues with the "pumping" the shotgun to chamber a round if a bad guy is there. All guns should be chambered and ready for action. When you are under stress you will probably forget that the gun is not chambered, you will probably be woken up and not 100% alert. Also you will have to either have the chamber open so you move the forearm forward or have to find that little button down by the trigger to release the action so you can cycle it. If you have the chamber open so you simply slide the forearm forward then you have to have a round sitting in the chamber. When you pick up the gun you run the risk of the round falling out or moving and causing the weapon to not close and the round jamming in the receiver. These are all VERY bad if your trying to defend your life!
My second issue is to chamber a round to try to let the bad guy know your there. The last thing I want is for the bad guy to know where I am at and or that I am armed. The element of surprise is in your favor. You know your home and he does not, you also probably have a good idea where he is at in your home and he may not even know your there. You also do not know who he is, if there is more then one and if they are armed etc. The last thing I want to do is give him a heads up that I have a shot gun, where I am at in the home and put him in the mind set to find me and take me out.
The best case scenario is that you are locked in a bedroom or bathroom, have called 911 and have help on the way prior to anything happening. If you have other family in the home you may not be able to barricade yourself from the bad guy and have to take a more defensive role to protect others. I would hope you could gather your family into a room to protect them prior to the bad guy getting to that part of the house. In any scenario you do not want the bad guy to hear anything and you want to catch him off guard.
For the OP I agree that a shotgun is not a good house weapon for a lot of people. I would suggest a nice revolver in the 3-4" range or a G19 or similar. It needs to be reliable and easy to use under stress. We all have to except the fact that the far majority of people buy a weapon for the home and some to carry on their person and then never practice or take training in the use of that weapon. The majority of these people will be lucky at best to use that weapon to protect themselves. They need it to be as simple and idiot proof as possible because they are going to be under great stress and have very minimal amount of experience.
I always get amazed when going to gun stores how many people are buying a gun and have no idea about what they are buying, how to remove the mag, how to take it apart etc etc. These people do not sit and read forums like this that's for sure.
Dave
I did not read all the pages but I did the first page. I have a few issues with the "pumping" the shotgun to chamber a round if a bad guy is there. All guns should be chambered and ready for action. When you are under stress you will probably forget that the gun is not chambered, you will probably be woken up and not 100% alert. Also you will have to either have the chamber open so you move the forearm forward or have to find that little button down by the trigger to release the action so you can cycle it. If you have the chamber open so you simply slide the forearm forward then you have to have a round sitting in the chamber. When you pick up the gun you run the risk of the round falling out or moving and causing the weapon to not close and the round jamming in the receiver. These are all VERY bad if your trying to defend your life!
My second issue is to chamber a round to try to let the bad guy know your there. The last thing I want is for the bad guy to know where I am at and or that I am armed. The element of surprise is in your favor. You know your home and he does not, you also probably have a good idea where he is at in your home and he may not even know your there. You also do not know who he is, if there is more then one and if they are armed etc. The last thing I want to do is give him a heads up that I have a shot gun, where I am at in the home and put him in the mind set to find me and take me out.
The best case scenario is that you are locked in a bedroom or bathroom, have called 911 and have help on the way prior to anything happening. If you have other family in the home you may not be able to barricade yourself from the bad guy and have to take a more defensive role to protect others. I would hope you could gather your family into a room to protect them prior to the bad guy getting to that part of the house. In any scenario you do not want the bad guy to hear anything and you want to catch him off guard.
For the OP I agree that a shotgun is not a good house weapon for a lot of people. I would suggest a nice revolver in the 3-4" range or a G19 or similar. It needs to be reliable and easy to use under stress. We all have to except the fact that the far majority of people buy a weapon for the home and some to carry on their person and then never practice or take training in the use of that weapon. The majority of these people will be lucky at best to use that weapon to protect themselves. They need it to be as simple and idiot proof as possible because they are going to be under great stress and have very minimal amount of experience.
I always get amazed when going to gun stores how many people are buying a gun and have no idea about what they are buying, how to remove the mag, how to take it apart etc etc. These people do not sit and read forums like this that's for sure.
Dave
Couple good points Dave. I think the comments about the "sound of the SG being chambered a round will scare a BG away" are kind of silly. IF you are going to tell the BG your location, then use you voice and tell them to GET OUT or that you have a gun and have called the police. Giving this type of warning will also look good in court if you did shoot them.
No one wants to shoot anyone if they do not have too, but if you have to do it you had better make sure they are dead!
C4
Cor-Bon makes a load that is supposedly effective, but I have no hard data on that.
Correct Sir.
The M1 is a good idea I think.
C4
How about a M1 Carbine?
You did all the work - you should have linked it to this:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956
I thought this was a great little review. Are there any plans to test the Corbon DPX rounds - I would imagine there is little demand for that information.
To set up an M1 carbine as pictured is as follows:
$500 USGI carbine (CMP rack grade - maybe add $100 for the extra work involved)
$50 G2 light
$60 Vltor mount
$400 to $600 RDS optic (Look at the LaRue IronDot on the low end and an Aimpoint T-1 on the high-end)
$95 for Ultimak mount
$20 15 round mags (an average after a quick Google search)
As a base gun, the carbine would be rather affordable. I still think the shotgun would probably be the cheapest solution here. And as many have mentioned this might be a combination that doesn't look too "offensive," has manageable recoil for women and smaller statured folks, plus it would probably be fairly effective with the rounds DocGKR mentioned...
Spooky
I'm not getting into anything thing here, but I will say this.
We used to have 870's issued, I can say that there were numerous occasions, with me deploying the shotgun to where bad guy(s) were being held at gunpoint (pistol) but not 100% compliant and when I showed up and chambered a round, they couldn't get on the ground fast enough.
I can remember one very clear to where there was an Armed Robbery on the Eastern Shore, these guys came across the CBBT, I was second on scene with the stop, they were pulling their guns out on the first officer on scene, when I went on scene shortly thereafter and got out(hastily I might add) they saw me with the shotgun and the three threw down their pistols. (don't fing shoot me with that thing was screamed by two, the other actually pissed himself)
There's no doubt in my mind that bad things would have happened that early morning if it wasn't for that display of force, it was very close, very close.
You can guess on your theory all you want, but until you've used one in real life, keep guessing.
Does it have range limitations, of course it does, but it's a tool isn't it?;)
We used to have 870's issued, I can say that there were numerous occasions, with me deploying the shotgun to where bad guy(s) were being held at gunpoint (pistol) but not 100% compliant and when I showed up and chambered a round, they couldn't get on the ground fast enough.
I think a lot of variables weigh in for the effectiveness of presentation.
I've often thought that knowledge of, and prior experience with LTL munitions produces greater persuasion with the SG. Offenders know that those options are deployed at a lower threshold, and earlier compliance may result. If they hadn't had any experience with them, and/or didn't know they were available to their local cops, they know the rules as well as we do on the application of lethal force.
(Analgous to the taser. Those that know nothing about it experience more of the shock-and-awe in the marketing. Those exposed previously seem to be more averse to it. Those exposed a great deal on the street or in a correctional institution know what it does, more importantly what it doesn't do, and some of the countertactics. With some of those subjects, taser presentation can provoke escalated reaction.)
The majority of the mullet-headed, bare chested, white trash I've shown shotguns too remain unimpressed by them. I also wonder if there isn't a geographic/demographic/cultural variable at play too.
I did not read all the pages but I did the first page. I have a few issues with the "pumping" the shotgun to chamber a round if a bad guy is there. All guns should be chambered and ready for action. When you are under stress you will probably forget that the gun is not chambered, you will probably be woken up and not 100% alert. Also you will have to either have the chamber open so you move the forearm forward or have to find that little button down by the trigger to release the action so you can cycle it. If you have the chamber open so you simply slide the forearm forward then you have to have a round sitting in the chamber. When you pick up the gun you run the risk of the round falling out or moving and causing the weapon to not close and the round jamming in the receiver.
Dave, no offense and please don't take this personally but, from this part of your post I'm going to take a guess that you've not had any formal combat shotgun training. Anyone and everyone with any formal combat shotgun training knows exactly how to make a shotgun "gun box ready", "car ready", or whatever you want to call a Condition 3 shotgun. Likewise, those same trained people can rack a round into the chamber about as fast as you could flip the selector on a carbine. Saying that a trained shotgunner would forget the ready condition of his "go to" shotgun is like saying that a trained rifleman will forget to manipulate the selector switch on their rifle.
You can guess on your theory all you want, but until you've used one in real life, keep guessing.
Amen.
The majority of the mullet-headed, bare chested, white trash I've shown shotguns too remain unimpressed by them. I also wonder if there isn't a geographic/demographic/cultural variable at play too.
Next time you have two who are unimpressed, shoot one. The other will be suitably impressed and probably tell all his friends about it, too!
All kidding aside, I have never been a a proponent of relying on the deterrent value of anything. There are simply too many people who are just too brave/foolish/stupid/drunk/etc. (or read it on the Internet...) to rely on deterrence. I'm sure you know, there really are some people you'd have to kill to prove to them that they're not invincible.
One of my favorites, and definately fits the topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UauxacnFA4
She may have had fewer problems with the shotgun if she had used a proper stance. I've taught many female friends how to shoot, shotguns included, and proper stance almost always handles the recoil for them with very few complaints.
I think a lot of variables weigh in for the effectiveness of presentation.
I've often thought that knowledge of, and prior experience with LTL munitions produces greater persuasion with the SG. Offenders know that those options are deployed at a lower threshold, and earlier compliance may result. If they hadn't had any experience with them, and/or didn't know they were available to their local cops, they know the rules as well as we do on the application of lethal force.
(Analgous to the taser. Those that know nothing about it experience more of the shock-and-awe in the marketing. Those exposed previously seem to be more averse to it. Those exposed a great deal on the street or in a correctional institution know what it does, more importantly what it doesn't do, and some of the countertactics. With some of those subjects, taser presentation can provoke escalated reaction.)
The majority of the mullet-headed, bare chested, white trash I've shown shotguns too remain unimpressed by them. I also wonder if there isn't a geographic/demographic/cultural variable at play too.
I was justified in shooting anyone that looked at the barrel, they just got smart for that moment in time and ceased their violent actions. (which is a good thing)
30 cal slut
12-18-08, 08:19
Nobody trains with a shotgun like they do with a handgun or AR (for multiple reasons).
C4
well, that definitely applies to me.
i have ONE scattergun in my pile of iron. it's a safe queen.
i just don't shoot trap/sporting clays or shoot birds anymore.
or even take it to the range.
i just have this thing about putting one deliberately aimed projectile at a time into a target, and this "prejudice" has gotten more firmly ingrained after training with LAV.
maybe i'm being butt-headed ... i don't even feel an over-riding desire to take any formal scattergun training either.
shotgun = not sexy, i guess. :p
I'm not getting into anything thing here, but I will say this.
We used to have 870's issued, I can say that there were numerous occasions, with me deploying the shotgun to where bad guy(s) were being held at gunpoint (pistol) but not 100% compliant and when I showed up and chambered a round, they couldn't get on the ground fast enough.
I can remember one very clear to where there was an Armed Robbery on the Eastern Shore, these guys came across the CBBT, I was second on scene with the stop, they were pulling their guns out on the first officer on scene, when I went on scene shortly thereafter and got out(hastily I might add) they saw me with the shotgun and the three threw down their pistols. (don't fing shoot me with that thing was screamed by two, the other actually pissed himself)
There's no doubt in my mind that bad things would have happened that early morning if it wasn't for that display of force, it was very close, very close.
You can guess on your theory all you want, but until you've used one in real life, keep guessing.
Does it have range limitations, of course it does, but it's a tool isn't it?;)
I think they were just scared at you showing up and going Chuck Norris on their ass! :D
C4
How's that snow treating you? ;)
She may have had fewer problems with the shotgun if she had used a proper stance. I've taught many female friends how to shoot, shotguns included, and proper stance almost always handles the recoil for them with very few complaints.
From Dr. Roberts (on another forum)
"As noted, in the M1 Carbine, both the Remington 110 gr JSP and Winchester 110 gr JSP have proven to work very well. In addition, the new Corbon load using the Barnes DPX bullet appears to be promising. As stated, the Federal 110 gr JSP performs poorly, just like ball... When practicing, just use FMJ, either from CMP or some other relatively reasonably priced source"
I do not have any one type of weapon I recommend for home defense. I tailor the advice to the person asking. I only recommend a carbine to an apartment dweller if they are willing to do a lot of training. Pistols or revolvers are my usual recommendation depending on how much training and maintenance the person is willing to do. Pump shotguns are what I generally recommend to those who have no firearms experience and are only willing to spend around $200. A shotgun for home defense may not be perfect but, IMHO , its better than an unreliable handgun.
I believe there is a large psychological element involved in women being "unable" to handle a shotgun. My fiance is afraid to fire a 12 gauge but has no problem firing magnum rifles and pistols.
The Archangel
12-18-08, 11:25
Hey, it worked for me once. Someone at about 1 AM was trying to pull the door off the hinges. I got next to the door and "racked" my 870. Next thing I heard was the guy beat feet off the front porch.
Oh great... another gun shopkeeper just read your post and is on his way to work. Good job man!
:p
Littlelebowski
12-18-08, 11:42
I think it's become very fashionable on gun forums to bash the supposed looming threat of people relying on the sound of racking a shotgun action to scare off intruders. Such informed commentary shows the writer's "real world" tactical know how and exposes the shotgun owners for the "sheeple" that they are.
Stay safe and beware of the CQB ninjas who aren't afraid of shotguns!
When My wife and I first got married she was fresh out of college and had never lived away from home.We were married and I was living 6 hours from her parents.(GOOD THING) anyway I was working tge graveyard shift and she had never been alone at night before.1rts night I came home with my best friend/old room mate was on the couch ,good friends are invaluable .My new bride was terrified.
I tried to teach her to shoot my S&W m36 but she did not like it.A few weeks lat,a few of my buddies were shooting skeet,my young wife was curious .
I got lucky and found a Fox double barrel with the stock cut down for a youth( my wife is 5'2" tops) She did not get into skeet shooting but she could make a paper plate think it was a sift at 20 yrds.That shotgun gave her the confidence ,security and piece of mind to endure for 10 + years of me being away at night.
I have been on day shift for the past 8 years and the 20 gauge Fox is still at our bedside.I think she trust's it more than me.......I don't blame her ,I would too.
She was confident after practice that if anyone came through our bedroom door ,she was going to be safe and they were going to be sorry.
I think it's become very fashionable on gun forums to bash the supposed looming threat of people relying on the sound of racking a shotgun action to scare off intruders. Such informed commentary shows the writer's "real world" tactical know how and exposes the shotgun owners for the "sheeple" that they are.
They're just jealous because they can't make the same cool sound with their rifles. :D
If it hasn't already shown in my previous posts, I'm a proponent of the shotgun for certain applications. I'm trained in their use, I've used them, and I simply enjoy shooting them. Having said that, I'll be the first to cry foul whenever someone starts spreading misinformation about the shotgun. I'll tee off on the "all you need to do is rack it", "you don't need to aim", "#6 is what you want for use indoors" myths just as fast as the most fervent anti-shotgunner. Going way back in this thread, I agree 100% with Grant's original post. That was a good example of some typical gun store nonsense (no offense intended to any shopkeepers here).
But, I'll also pipe up against the "shotguns are good for nothing" arguments. And damn if some people don't seem to take things personally when they start bashing the shotgun. I've been amazed (maybe dismayed would be a better word) that some people are so polarized that they would actually advocate a pistol or knife (a knife?!) over a shotgun.
I really do not want to get shot with any firearm...and shotguns make devastating wounds
LL would likely be missing an arm if his accident had involved a shotgun
I just think shotguns have more than their share of mythology to go along with the realities
At any home defense range I am just as likely to get a hit with a carbine without the recoil and with easier handling/ergonomics
And short of using slugs, I get much more precision. It has always bothered me that my "kill zone" changes as distance changes using a shotgun.
If I was interested in a long gun at all I would choose the carbine over the scattergun
But I think choosing the long gun requires a good bit more training for anything other than a barricade position in a house
if I was using a shotgun I would probably use slugs
John_Wayne777
12-18-08, 17:36
The M1 carbine idea and PCC (pistol caliber carbine) are making me ponder things. It's kind of hard to find commercial self defense .30 carbine ammo, no? Maybe I need to look at 9mm carbines for the old lady.
Natchez has DocGKR's recommended load in stock. It's a bit pricey, but the performance it offers is excellent:
http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentID=ammoGroup&ammoGroup=1&ammoSize=229&type=0&mfg=RT
Personally I think the M1 carbine is a splendid idea. A USGI quality M1 carbine (which you can get right now for reasonable prices through the CMP) is a very light, handy, easy to control little weapon. I would GREATLY prefer it to a shotgun for serious social purposes...especially if you trick it out with an Aimpoint micro, Surefire G2, and a Vickers sling.
John_Wayne777
12-18-08, 17:53
I'm not getting into anything thing here, but I will say this.
We used to have 870's issued, I can say that there were numerous occasions, with me deploying the shotgun to where bad guy(s) were being held at gunpoint (pistol) but not 100% compliant and when I showed up and chambered a round, they couldn't get on the ground fast enough.
I can remember one very clear to where there was an Armed Robbery on the Eastern Shore, these guys came across the CBBT, I was second on scene with the stop, they were pulling their guns out on the first officer on scene, when I went on scene shortly thereafter and got out(hastily I might add) they saw me with the shotgun and the three threw down their pistols. (don't fing shoot me with that thing was screamed by two, the other actually pissed himself)
There's no doubt in my mind that bad things would have happened that early morning if it wasn't for that display of force, it was very close, very close.
It could have been the weapon itself....and it also could have been another officer showing up, upgrading his firepower, and giving the bad guys that "Do you feel lucky, punk?" look.
At least in the US a cop deploying a long gun is usually doing so because he/she means business. Criminals see police sidearms out of the holster fairly often (in general) and a police officer whipping one out may not have the deterrence effect one would hope for.
John_Wayne777
12-18-08, 17:56
I've been amazed (maybe dismayed would be a better word) that some people are so polarized that they would actually advocate a pistol or knife (a knife?!) over a shotgun.
Well, in all fairness somebody who comes at you half naked, screaming, and armed with a big knife is a pretty scary sight.....
It could have been the weapon itself....and it also could have been another officer showing up, upgrading his firepower, and giving the bad guys that "Do you feel lucky, punk?" look.
At least in the US a cop deploying a long gun is usually doing so because he/she means business. Criminals see police sidearms out of the holster fairly often (in general) and a police officer whipping one out may not have the deterrence effect one would hope for.
It could've been they wanted to talk over a biscuit at the Hardee's we were at.
You don't understand, these guys where getting out of the car with their guns, preparing to have a shootout.
They knew that the likelyhood of surviving what was about to come their way was about zero.
First, I am not a "shotgun" guy, I'm not a "long range guy" either, but that doesn't mean I don't see the utility in them.
I do keep an 870 in the closet, mostly because its cheaper to lose then an AR.
I do believe the shotgun has some shortcomings, as has been pointed out here.
What I took from Grants original post, was not the uselessness of the shotgun, but the unending perpetrating of stupid myths. Not unlike the various AR myths, like DPMS makes them for Colt, etc etc. that you here in what seems like every gun shop I go into, or every gun show table.
Someone mentioned they should be kept with a round in the chamber... everyplace I've ever worked or trained, kept the guns in the half load. For a variety of reasons. It is not substantially slower to get the gun into action, you do not need to look for the little button, just run the action, and go.
As far as racking the acton will send the boogeyman running into the night screaming, I'm not buying it, or relying on it.
Now, I'm not saying it hasn't happened, evidenced by posters here. But..
Why would racking a carbine be any different? Would the bad guys on the other side of the door, be so in-tuned with their hearing, and firearms knowledge to differentiate from you racking the slide of an 870, and racking the charging handle of a 6920? or a Glock for that matter?
A SWAT team commander once told me
"they say any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say anything can work once"
The point being, it may work, but I wouldn't count on it, and there in lies the rub, some people will buy the shotgun, hoping and praying or outright believing they'll never have to use it, just pump it, and they'll run away. Well, what happens when Joe criminal isn't impressed, and you are not mentally prepared to follow thru?
Or you do follow thru, but you believed the second myth, of not having to aim? Or one shot will drop 'em...then what?
Of course all of this is the dreaded "training issue", and not a "shotgun" issue. But, it is also a "spreading the myth" issue.
If that means I'm "fashionably" bashing someone, oh well
Oh and +1 on the M1 carbine
Bob
Jay Cunningham
12-18-08, 19:03
"they say any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say anything can work once"
I like that quote a lot.
John Hearne
12-18-08, 19:18
Good primer on the 20 gauge shotgun for women:
http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2008/07/firearm-recommendations-for-home.html
20 gauge for women? Heck ,I like the recoil on the 20 too and I ma a grown man,my wife would argue that fact though .I have several 12's and one old (first gun ) 870 16 gauge.I will have too admit I do rely on my Ithica M37 with a deerslayer barrel now, on my side of the bed, but the 20 gauge Fox is still in the corner of the bedroom closest to my wife.It is loaded with 2 , #3 buck shot shells in the chamber and 5 more on the stock.
Do not enter my bedroom uninvited..unless you are my kids...and we all no when they want to come in..This is PG right?
We live in the country 25 miles outside of Richmond VA,but ever since the Harvey family was murdered(home invasion by thugs) I believe the more firepower & closer firepower the better.I keep other firearms close,convenient and secure downstairs.
You know it sucks to think you have to do this sort of thing, but in todays time .I would rather be too prepared than not at all.It cost the Harvey family ,including their small children their life.
Sorry to rant, just a real world situation that hit too close too home.....Google the Harveys in Richmond to get their story......It could happen to any of us.
The 2nd amendment was not just for military purpose ,it was for every responsible law abiding American to be able to protect themselves.
Yep, preaching to the choir again,sorry.
I've often thought that knowledge of, and prior experience with LTL munitions produces greater persuasion with the SG. Offenders know that those options are deployed at a lower threshold, and earlier compliance may result. If they hadn't had any experience with them, and/or didn't know they were available to their local cops, they know the rules as well as we do on the application of lethal force.
Along similar lines, I've met many people who are more afraid of being cut by a knife than being shot with a bullet. Why? We've all been cut, few of us have been shot.
Seriously, can't you just imagine the look you'd get if, 10-20 feet from the BG, you drew a broadsword from behind you? :cool:
I just think shotguns have more than their share of mythology to go along with the realities
Sort of like M4s.
If I was interested in a long gun at all I would choose the carbine over the scattergun
At least from my reading, no one here has advocated the shotgun over the carbine for a well-trained individual with properly set up gear. The original issue, as I understood it, was choosing a weapon for a young girl who had zero training and probably didn't want to spend the money necessary to get a 6920 and make it M4C Approved.
Well, in all fairness somebody who comes at you half naked, screaming, and armed with a big knife is a pretty scary sight.....
You were warned not to feed Grant after midnight.
A SWAT team commander once told me
"they say any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say anything can work once"
That is seriously sig-worthy.
Correct Sir.
The M1 is a good idea I think.
C4
well, here we are back at the beginning. why would an M1 carbine be a better choice than an M4?
Jay Cunningham
12-18-08, 22:43
well, here we are back at the beginning. why would an M1 carbine be a better choice than an M4?
Remember to keep the discussion in context - in this case a 20 something, 115 lb. otherwise uninterested female.
Remember to keep the discussion in context - in this case a 20 something, 115 lb. otherwise uninterested female.
OK. I just don't see much difference. in size, in weight, recoil or report.
and fwiw, I'd rather have a Mini-14 than a M1 Carbine.
Matt Edwards
12-18-08, 23:06
I think it's become very fashionable on gun forums to bash the supposed looming threat of people relying on the sound of racking a shotgun action to scare off intruders. Such informed commentary shows the writer's "real world" tactical know how and exposes the shotgun owners for the "sheeple" that they are.
Stay safe and beware of the CQB ninjas who aren't afraid of shotguns!
R. Moran coverd the "real world" tactical know how piece very well. Take a look at his post.
Do not rely on the racking to do your job for you. It may, and we know it has, but don't count on it. Just like we know that guys have been "stopped" with one round. Don't plan on it. I know too many guys who continued to move when hit with rifle bullets, many even continued to fight.
Hope is not the best methode. If it works, great. But what are you going to do when it dosen't?
Good post Bob! You must do stuff with guns and such.
Rob Haught
12-22-08, 20:46
On the contrary, some most certainly do.
I think I could change a lot of thinking regarding the shotgun and recoil.
Rob
Matt Edwards
12-22-08, 20:51
Rob,
I'm sure YOU could change a lot of opinons about the shot gun in general.
Rob Haught
12-22-08, 21:07
Rob,
I'm sure YOU could change a lot of opinons about the shot gun in general.
Matt,
I have worked with many smaller folks, male and female who have come to class with preconceived notions and fears about how bad the shotgun is going to hurt them with good reason. Its the least understood weapon in our arsenal and the
most undertrained. The single biggest hurdle to effective training with the shotgun is getting past the recoil. Once you can effectively manage it you can start to really train on tactics and techniques. I'd say the majority of forum members own at least one tactical type shotgun, but most haven't shot them much because its not as sexy as a carbine and it hurts more. LE and Mil firearms training is full of Type A personalities and macho attitudes and many sacred cows as far as doctrine goes. No one wants to admit they are recoil shy or look bad shooting so they just dont do it. As my buddy Hackathorn is fond of saying " The average American male would rather shed blood than ego! ", and he is spot on.
Not to say its perfect by any means but my programs start out on the premise that you need to manage the recoil through technique then all else falls into place. Typically during the day we shoot about 250-300 rds with no issues once the recoil is mastered. Ive never had a student say they just couldnt make it work for them.
In these times of ammo shortages maybe its time to dust off the shotguns and go to the range while shotshells are still fairly reasonable.
Rob
SeriousStudent
12-22-08, 21:38
I think I could change a lot of thinking regarding the shotgun and recoil.
Rob
Chief, it's very good to see your opinions here. One of my long-range plans is to take one of your shotgun classes.
Thanks, and stay safe.
You'll learn more spending an hour on the range with Rob Haught and a pair of shotguns than you would at just about any multi-day shotgun program anywhere else.
You'll learn more spending an hour on the range with Rob Haught and a pair of shotguns than you would at just about any multi-day shotgun program anywhere else.
I am quite certain that is true
And I am fairly certain that he is more adept with the shotgun (and probably every other firearm) than I
But the point of the original post is ( I believe) that there is a belief among far too many people that simply having a shotgun somehow relieves you from any requirement for training, etc.
And that is where I call BS
I may be wrong about the scattergun needing more training
But I certainly do not see less need for proficiency
You still need to be able to hit your target...it is not a slam dunk just because you have a shotgun
The bad guys will not simply run screaming into the night
And you can still miss
IMO
For all intents and purposes, I would say the shotgun is like any other long gun in terms of "hitability" ... easier than a pistol but no easier than a carbine. At any kind of normal indoor range, the pattern will still be small enough that you either get a good hit or you don't get a good hit, just like anything else.
Rob Haught
12-23-08, 00:04
I am quite certain that is true
And I am fairly certain that he is more adept with the shotgun (and probably every other firearm) than I
But the point of the original post is ( I believe) that there is a belief among far too many people that simply having a shotgun somehow relieves you from any requirement for training, etc.
And that is where I call BS
I may be wrong about the scattergun needing more training
But I certainly do not see less need for proficiency
You still need to be able to hit your target...it is not a slam dunk just because you have a shotgun
The bad guys will not simply run screaming into the night
And you can still miss
IMO
Very true. I believe that we dont spend enough time training with the shotgun. I also believe that the initial training a person receives will set the tone for his or her opinions of the weapon. Most people only get formalized training on the shotgun in the LE Academies or some limited Military programs and its often poor.
The biggest thing I hear when I see something stupid being taught and ask why is " thats the way we've always done it". That doesn't mean it was right in the first place but has become tradition and its hard for institutions to abandon. Case in point, I was told by an instructor for a very prestigious federal agency tasked with protection of the highest govt. officials that the very first five shots their new agents fire with the shotguns are slugs. When I asked why in the world you would do something so detrimental to a new shooters learning curve I got a shrug and " thats the way its always been" Go figure.
And you are right... I tell folks it not hard to hit something with a shotgun, its just real easy to miss!
Proper training, and proper practice will produce skill levels that are easier to maintain I think than any of the other weapon systems. Once you reach a level of competence with the shotgun it seems to not deteriorate as rapidly as say, handgun skills.
Once you have a good foundation in the basic manipulation skills you can keep it with less range time. You can take a box of 25 rds of birdshot to the range and run through some basic skill drills and then move on to the other systems and be in pretty good shape with the shotgun. But its vital to get a good foundation.
Rob Haught
12-23-08, 00:15
Chief, it's very good to see your opinions here. One of my long-range plans is to take one of your shotgun classes.
Thanks, and stay safe.
Thanks! I would like to do more programs in 2009, there seems to be some renewed interest in shotgun training.
Rob
K.L. Davis
12-24-08, 22:04
I've never felt under gunned with a shotgun... as for the sound of the slide racking, I consider that sort of a an exclamation point I guess. We all know that verbal commands are often received and followed better, when they are delivered with a certain urgency; of course the old standby wild eyed maniac with spit flying as you bellow is tried and true, and nothing seems to drive how home just how serious you are as shooting the person standing next to your subject first... but that is not always an option.
It seems that the consequences part of the command can be enhanced with descriptors that help a lot: "I'll blow a hole in you" can be "I'll blow a hole a hole in you as big as the sky" -- and of course there is always that cliché "...while you still can" tacked on to the end of nearly any tasking.
That said, I would have to advocate that if the racking of a shotgun is used as an non-verbal augmentation, it should only be delivered to the second guy.
Oh, Rob H. check your private messages please.
Shotguns, like anything else, have pros and cons.
As to the racking of the shotgun scaring off threts, I find that to be not very likely, since the shotgun is usually stored in Cond 3, and most likely placed into Cond 1 ASAP when obtained from its storage place, which is not likely in the presence of the theat.
Therefore the theat will not be subject to the possible deterrent of hearing the shotgun racking, until after the 1st round is fired, by which time the situation has changed radically.
Nathan_Bell
12-26-08, 09:17
Was she hot?
I got to Grant's around the end of that deal and can answer affirmative to your question Jay.
It seems that the consequences part of the command can be enhanced with descriptors that help a lot: "I'll blow a hole in you" can be "I'll blow a hole a hole in you as big as the sky" -- and of course there is always that cliché "...while you still can" tacked on to the end of nearly any tasking.
You forgot "I'm your huckleberry". ;)
I can't resist chunking in my .02 worth on the shotgun vs handgun discussion. If the person chooses not to be trained(my prediction), then she is better off with a DA revolver, which is more foolproof than the pump or auto shotgun. A dog with a big mouth is a good idea too.
To fit properly, the shotgun would require stock shortening and probably need the barrel cut back as well.
I have observed male and female correctional officers who could not operate an 870 despite their being academy graduates. They would forget.
Pumps are prone to operator error problems when used by the lame or untrained.
The shotgun is more difficult to retain during a struggle.
Has anybody mentioned pepper spray and better door locks?
M4tographer
12-27-08, 00:04
The shotgun is more difficult to retain during a struggle.
Hmmm, I'll keep it short and say I disagree with this statement. ;)
Gutshot John
12-27-08, 08:41
Hmmm, I'll keep it short and say I disagree with this statement. ;)
I agree that it's an oversimplification but he does have a point. It's much easier to take away a longgun during a struggle than a handgun. I'm not saying one is doomed in a struggle armed with a longgun, simply that there are considerations to be made and training to be done. A properly held handgun is a much more difficult take-away.
That being said, having a revolver in a struggle has some weakness to it as well. Badguy just has to squeeze/hold the cylinder and the revolver won't fire. No matter how hard you squeeze that trigger. Try it. :)
I'd personally choose a semi-auto handgun for clearing my house. Glock 17.
If the person is wedded to the idea of a shottie, I'll recommend something based on a friend's recommendation. Stoeger Coach gun, 20 gauge for female. Since there is no action it's remarkably short. It's also a simple design that can be mastered with little practice. Get a stock saddle and the little woman can hole up in a closet. Of course you lose the "intimidation" factor with the pump. :)
If the person chooses not to be trained(my prediction), then she is better off with a DA revolver, which is more foolproof than the pump or auto shotgun.
Unless, as previously addressed, hand size and (lack of) strength don't permit use of a DA anything.
To fit properly, the shotgun would require stock shortening and probably need the barrel cut back as well.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/model_870_express_jr.asp
I have observed male and female correctional officers who could not operate an 870 despite their being academy graduates. They would forget.
And of course things like that never happen with an AR15...1751
Pumps are prone to operator error problems when used by the lame or untrained.
Just like anything else...
Heavy Metal
12-27-08, 11:16
LOL. My male Springer is dead to the world. My female Springer usually roams the house at night.
C4
All you would have to do is put a laser on they perp and the dogs would jump all over him.
All you would have to do is put a laser on they perp and the dogs would jump all over him.
Ok, that was funny!
The recoil of shotguns (even 20ga) is too much for a lot of female shooters. The added complexity of the safety and racking the shotgun is also too much complexity as well IMHO.
A good snubby revolver or G-Lock/MP is a much simplar tool I think and if she decided to get her CCW, she is good to go already and does not have to buy another weapon.
C4
My wife owned a 20ga when I met her. She had never shot it. Since then she has she does not like it. ( I gave her $80 for a purse in trade for it) She hates all of my snubby's, glock's, kimbers etc. She absolutely loves my SA 6" longslide 1911 and is a wicked good shot with it. So that is what's next to her side of the bed. Not a CCW piece but if someone had it pointed at me I would run like hell. Just like everything else with a woman, you never know... I'm hoping she doesn't like my new SA xdm-9.
Any reason no one has yet mentioned a lever gun in maybe 357 magnum as a possibility for home defense? Marlin 1894c is 6lbs and 36" OAL.
For the "non-enthusiastic" shooter, it's probably easier to shoot accurately than a DA revolver and exhibits less recoil than a 20 ga. shotgun.
Gutshot John
12-29-08, 16:49
Any reason no one has yet mentioned a lever gun in maybe 357 magnum as a possibility for home defense? Marlin 1894c is 6lbs and 36" OAL.
For the "non-enthusiastic" shooter, it's probably easier to shoot accurately than a DA revolver and exhibits less recoil than a 20 ga. shotgun.
The thread was about shotguns.
olds442tyguy
12-29-08, 17:22
I have yet to personally know a female who is comfortable with shotguns. The biggest complaints I've heard are weight and recoil.
I'd have mentioned a low maintenance handgun was well. After all, it is what you're most comfortable with that counts. Some women may be okay with them, but I guarantee that's not the norm.
I have yet to personally know a female who is comfortable with shotguns. The biggest complaints I've heard are weight and recoil. I'd have mentioned a low maintenance handgun was well. After all, it is what you're most comfortable with that counts. Some women may be okay with them, but I guarantee that's not the norm.
It's a product of training. Given a certain course of instruction, I see more that are comfortable than not. As noted previously, their feedback is usually, "can we shoot more?"
Yesterday morning I shot 5-stand with a lady who ran her 20ga 870 rather expertly, and certainly cleaned my clock. The one that followed her, complete with her own 12ga 870, performed well despite having no formal instruction. She was also missing something else: someone telling her about recoil, weight, and such variables, all that would create self-fulfilling prophecies.
I have yet to personally know a female who is comfortable with shotguns. The biggest complaints I've heard are weight and recoil.
I got the "shotgun is too heavy" line from my HH6 once. She decided she'd rather have my S&W M&P 340 because it was just so light and comfortable to hold. After three rounds she handed it back to me and decided that she'd stick with the shotgun. ;)
olds442tyguy
12-30-08, 16:55
She was also missing something else: someone telling her about recoil, weight, and such variables, all that would create self-fulfilling prophecies.
I don't see the need for snide remarks, but I assure you I have no personal stake in what a woman from across the country uses for a firearm. It's just my personal experience that women can hold a 2 pound pistol in the sight picture a heck of a lot easier than a 12 pound shotgun, as well as make quicker follow up shots with a 9mm than a 12 gauge.
I don't see the need for snide remarks, but I assure you I have no personal stake in what a woman from across the country uses for a firearm. It's just my personal experience that women can hold a 2 pound pistol in the sight picture a heck of a lot easier than a 12 pound shotgun, as well as make quicker follow up shots with a 9mm than a 12 gauge.
Sorry, not intending to be snide, just an observation.
I agree with you on the latter part.
The debate remains whether or not issues with using the shotgun are as substantial as some believe.
I feel a good long gun for a woman with low recoil is a M1 carbine loaded up with something like Corbons. Low recoil, effective enough at room distance, and easy to operate. An M4 would be better though.
HAIL-CAESAR
01-16-09, 02:42
I have yet to personally know a female who is comfortable with shotguns. The biggest complaints I've heard are weight and recoil.
I'd have mentioned a low maintenance handgun was well. After all, it is what you're most comfortable with that counts. Some women may be okay with them, but I guarantee that's not the norm.
Oh, good grief.
My wife is barely 5'1 and 102. She regularly shoots more than 400 rounds a week of 12 gauge. It's a 8 1/2 pound O/U. The H.S. kids I teach Trap too are sometimes smaller than that. I have shotguns that weigh in the 5 pound range to almost 10. Singles, SxS, O/U's, Autoloaders, and Pumps. You just have to find one that fits you or a smaller person.
It's about the teaching and training to use one. Getting them to hold it correctly and getting a good shoulder pocket first is really important. Anyone that cannot handle a properly fit 20 gauge shotgun with good instruction, must have serious physical limitations. Even with 3 inch slugs or buckshot.
Secondly, anyone that thinks a shotgun is inferior is unknowledgeable or seriously kidding themselves.
If you are bumping around in your house at night and don't have at least 3 more of your SWAT trained buddies with you, you are seriously kidding yourself no matter what weapon you have.
The Pistol, Carbine, and Shotgun all have their own distinctive pro's and con's. None is perfect for everything, but the shotgun is far from defective as a home defensive/offensive weapon. Anyone that thinks the latter needs some training and trigger time behind a shotgun to find the light.
My situation might be different from most. I live in the country. Kids are out of my house now ( thank God). My wife's defensive posture is to hunker down behind the pedestal bed (reinforced with steel sheets) and to arm herself with a shotgun and call 911 and me. Yell she has called the "911" and has a "gun/shotgun" and if the door handle moves she is to place one shot right into the handle and one more in the middle of the door. If anyone doubts the effectiveness of this, find an old door and find out yourself. Anyone holding the handle will likely be discouraged from further hostile acts once they are lacking part or all of their hand. She has an AR and a handgun available too, but the shotgun is her first choice. She has a LED Surefire light attached to the barrel, but for years did not. You don't need a light, laser, and red dot light on a shotgun to be effective. In one gun she can shoot buck shot for close range ( under 40 yards) and shoot slugs and put 3 in your chest at 125 yards. All with the same barrel with a rifled choke. That takes care of anything that comes along unless you get into errornet/ninja land.
Also a shotgun has more flexibility and power than a handgun or AR. When was the last time you heard a knowledgeable person recommend a Glock 17 or AR 15 over a shotgun for bear. I can vouch for the holes a shotgun can leave in a 2 legged critter (PM me), and I have shot deer, hogs, and one bear. The shotgun creates huge holes, massive internal damage, and massive blood loss. I have also shot the same animals with a handgun ( 44 mag/45 Colt hand loads/ 357 mag) and .223 (except a bear). You can have your handgun. I'll take a shotgun for a hunker down/offensive situation.
If I rack it they might hear me and get away.
Failure2Stop
01-16-09, 04:49
If I rack it they might hear me and get away.
Now that's funny :D.
Oh, good grief.
My wife is barely 5'1 and 102. She regularly shoots more than 400 rounds a week of 12 gauge. It's a 8 1/2 pound O/U. The H.S. kids I teach Trap too are sometimes smaller than that. I have shotguns that weigh in the 5 pound range to almost 10. Singles, SxS, O/U's, Autoloaders, and Pumps. You just have to find one that fits you or a smaller person.
It's about the teaching and training to use one. Getting them to hold it correctly and getting a good shoulder pocket first is really important. Anyone that cannot handle a properly fit 20 gauge shotgun with good instruction, must have serious physical limitations. Even with 3 inch slugs or buckshot.
Secondly, anyone that thinks a shotgun is inferior is unknowledgeable or seriously kidding themselves.
If you are bumping around in your house at night and don't have at least 3 more of your SWAT trained buddies with you, you are seriously kidding yourself no matter what weapon you have.
The Pistol, Carbine, and Shotgun all have their own distinctive pro's and con's. None is perfect for everything, but the shotgun is far from defective as a home defensive/offensive weapon. Anyone that thinks the latter needs some training and trigger time behind a shotgun to find the light.
My situation might be different from most. I live in the country. Kids are out of my house now ( thank God). My wife's defensive posture is to hunker down behind the pedestal bed (reinforced with steel sheets) and to arm herself with a shotgun and call 911 and me. Yell she has called the "911" and has a "gun/shotgun" and if the door handle moves she is to place one shot right into the handle and one more in the middle of the door. If anyone doubts the effectiveness of this, find an old door and find out yourself. Anyone holding the handle will likely be discouraged from further hostile acts once they are lacking part or all of their hand. She has an AR and a handgun available too, but the shotgun is her first choice. She has a LED Surefire light attached to the barrel, but for years did not. You don't need a light, laser, and red dot light on a shotgun to be effective. In one gun she can shoot buck shot for close range ( under 40 yards) and shoot slugs and put 3 in your chest at 125 yards. All with the same barrel with a rifled choke. That takes care of anything that comes along unless you get into errornet/ninja land.
Also a shotgun has more flexibility and power than a handgun or AR. When was the last time you heard a knowledgeable person recommend a Glock 17 or AR 15 over a shotgun for bear. I can vouch for the holes a shotgun can leave in a 2 legged critter (PM me), and I have shot deer, hogs, and one bear. The shotgun creates huge holes, massive internal damage, and massive blood loss. I have also shot the same animals with a handgun ( 44 mag/45 Colt hand loads/ 357 mag) and .223 (except a bear). You can have your handgun. I'll take a shotgun for a hunker down/offensive situation.
I agree completely and feel that Grant is kidding himself, I believe I got into a pissing match with him about the same thing and I was told I was ignorant and didn't want to get into it with him at the time, but the adreniline pump and fear of a first time armed confrontation for anyone without training could cause you to miss your target with a handgun or rifle and possibly empty your mag without hitting anything but the neighbor next door!!!
I choose a shotgun (and not some 28" bird gun) because it is easy to maneuver and as long as you point it in the same general direction you are going to get some lead in the intruders butt...And the sound a shotgun makes is unmistakable to almost all people alive and is quite loud and like someone mentioned will scare all but "operators" who are paid to kill you...And if you have people like that after you then you have screwed up somewhere...
Thank you for this post, It is not an urban myth, it is reality...If I was one to break into peoples houses and heard a shotgun rack a shell into the chamber I would leave a nice steamy surprise for the home owner as i was quickly leaving the vicinity...
And the sound a shotgun makes is unmistakable to almost all people alive and is quite loud and like someone mentioned will scare all but "operators" who are paid to kill you...And if you have people like that after you then you have screwed up somewhere...
Yes or no, have you ever on one or more occasions had to rack a shotgun in the presense of someone you were confronting who intended to or was willing to engage in violent behavior?
I choose a shotgun (and not some 28" bird gun) because it is easy to maneuver and as long as you point it in the same general direction you are going to get some lead in the intruders butt...
"As long as you point it in the same general direction you are going to get some lead in the intruder's butt."
You're kidding, right?
HAIL-CAESAR
01-18-09, 19:53
Yes or no, have you ever on one or more occasions had to rack a shotgun in the presense of someone you were confronting who intended to or was willing to engage in violent behavior?
Yes I have, and it did work (several times via work). But I agree with you, it may or may not work. It's nice that the sound worked but I don't rely on it to work. It's just a plus that the sound of the shotgun racking ceased all further actions.
"As long as you point it in the same general direction you are going to get some lead in the intruder's butt."
You're kidding, right?
I definitely agree with you. A shotgun is not a ray of death that kills in a vast arc as some think. You have to aim just like a rifle. It does spread a pattern at distance, that may give you multiple solid hits than if you were using a rifle and your aim was off, to the point of causing a grazing wound/ periphery hit/ barely missed with a rifle or handgun. But a room sweeper it is not. You can not stick the barrel through a doorway and hit everything in the next room from wall to wall/ ceiling to floor, like some believe. At most household room ranges a shot gun will hold all buckshot in a pattern of less than 3 inches and some tighter, depending on load and choke used. Used the way the shotgun is made to be used, the shotgun is a very efficient tool.
John_Wayne777
01-18-09, 21:06
I choose a shotgun (and not some 28" bird gun) because it is easy to maneuver and as long as you point it in the same general direction you are going to get some lead in the intruders butt...And the sound a shotgun makes is unmistakable to almost all people alive and is quite loud and like someone mentioned will scare all but "operators" who are paid to kill you...And if you have people like that after you then you have screwed up somewhere...
Thank you for this post, It is not an urban myth, it is reality...If I was one to break into peoples houses and heard a shotgun rack a shell into the chamber I would leave a nice steamy surprise for the home owner as i was quickly leaving the vicinity...
Wowsers....There's a lot wrong with that post.
1. You actually have to aim a shotgun to hit anything with it....even if you're using bird shot. (which isn't really a good idea for stopping bad people)
2. People who commit break-ins are often trustees of modern chemistry. These individuals often commit crimes in a desperate attempt to fund their next fix. You cannot expect that these individuals will:
A. recognize the sound of a shotgun being pumped
B. run
Logic and reason aren't exactly in abundance in the minds of many criminals, especially the ones that are high.
3. Much of the lore around the shotgun's usefulness as a weapon is more legend than reality. What we try to do here on M4C is deal in the reality of things. Insomuch as the bad guys believe the lore of the shotgun then it may well be a useful psychological component against some bad people. The reality of the platform's limitations, however, should not be ignored.
I'd rather have a shotgun than a handgun, but I'd rather have my AR than my shotgun.
NCPatrolAR
01-18-09, 22:03
I have an 870 sitting just inside my closet. Its my "bump in the night" long gun. :)
HAIL-CAESAR
01-18-09, 22:18
Also just racking the slide of a pump shotgun for the effort of scaring a criminal might just tell him it's time to start shooting in the direction of the sound.
The shotgun is an awesome weapon. You just have to know how to use it. And stop watch TV shotguns. TV shotguns are slightly less powerful than a theater nuclear weapon.
JW -- I don't disagree with you often, my friend, but because of this thread I spoke to quite a few long-time LEOs at SHOT about these issues:
1. You actually have to aim a shotgun to hit anything with it....even if you're using bird shot.
No one with enough brain cells to blink on demand would argue that point.
2. People who commit break-ins are often trustees of modern chemistry. These individuals often commit crimes in a desperate attempt to fund their next fix. You cannot expect that these individuals will:
A. recognize the sound of a shotgun being pumped
B. run
Logic and reason aren't exactly in abundance in the minds of many criminals, especially the ones that are high.
The fact that it might not work, or even that it probably won't work, is missing the point. Let's say it's only 10%. Given the cost and other potential negative aftereffects of a self-defense claim -- such as going to prison, having your face plastered all over the news as a killer, etc. -- wouldn't it be nice to reduce the odds you'll have to fire that fatal shot by 10%?
We've already had at least one respected LEO on this board relay a personal story crediting the shotgun with de-escalation a fight. Second-guessing it doesn't change the facts.
Along similar lines, hanging out at both Crimson Trace's and Lasermax's booths quite a bit I got to hear multiple stories of LEOs who achieved compliance only when a little laser dot appeared on the suspect's chest. One of these stories came from a M4C member, in fact. People like to say the de-escalation potential of a laser "won't stop determined criminals," too, but not all criminals are willing to take a bullet, believe it or not. Some are even -- you might want to sit down for this -- sort of cowardly.
3. Much of the lore around the shotgun's usefulness as a weapon is more legend than reality. What we try to do here on M4C is deal in the reality of things. Insomuch as the bad guys believe the lore of the shotgun then it may well be a useful psychological component against some bad people. The reality of the platform's limitations, however, should not be ignored.
Upon what do you base that? Generations of LEOs used the shotgun to spectacular effect.
Have you considered that if you put the same amount of money into accessories and training for a shotgun as you do for an AR, the shotgun just might become a much more effective weapon in your hands?
Repelling a horde of zombies? Sure, the capacity and fast reload of the AR has a huge advantage.
Engaging targets at distances beyond 100yd? Sure, the AR has a definite advantage.
But those limitations have very little practical impact for the majority of people concerned with home defense or domestic LE patrol duties.
John_Wayne777
01-20-09, 08:22
No one with enough brain cells to blink on demand would argue that point.
Well, lots of people do largely because they don't have a lot of experience with the weapon and are relying on the legend of the shotgun. As for how many brain cells are involved in that belief...well...I'll leave that alone. :D
The fact that it might not work, or even that it probably won't work, is missing the point. Let's say it's only 10%. Given the cost and other potential negative aftereffects of a self-defense claim -- such as going to prison, having your face plastered all over the news as a killer, etc. -- wouldn't it be nice to reduce the odds you'll have to fire that fatal shot by 10%?
I agree that the mere presence of the weapon can have a powerful psychological impact on bad guys. Some of them may, as Mark5pt56 pointed out, see the 870 come out and figure that their odds of survival just went to winning the lottery level and decide to quit.
Of course, I've also heard of bad guys who are pretty bold in the face of three officers with drawn sidearms, but when officer 4 shows up and points the same handgun at him the bad guy takes one look at him and obeys commands. The officer in question reported that as the bad guy was bent over the squad car getting checked for additional weapons he asked officer 4 "You were really going to shoot me, weren't you?"
There's a story told about a man who resisted arrest on a warrant issued by Andrew Jackson and who intimidated all the officers sent after him. Hearing this, Jackson was enraged, so he grabbed a pistol and went after the man himself. The man took a look at Jackson and dropped his weapons. When asked why it's reported that he said Jackson was the only one that had "shoot" in his eyes. I don't know if that old story is true or not, (wouldn't have been much of a stretch for Jackson) but the principle behind the story certainly is.
We've already had at least one respected LEO on this board relay a personal story crediting the shotgun with de-escalation a fight. Second-guessing it doesn't change the facts.
I'm not second guessing it. Some bad guys believe that shotguns are a death ray and they may well become meek and compliant when somebody aims one at them or when somebody chambers a round. If it works, great! If the options are facing a lethal threat with a .40 caliber handgun or a shotgun I'd pick the shotgun every time and encourage everyone else to do the same.
Still, I'd much rather have a good carbine with a red dot. I'm not attempting to make an "X is useless, so choose Y!" argument. Handguns < Shotguns, but I also believe that the carbine offers a lot more than the shotgun does.
Along similar lines, hanging out at both Crimson Trace's and Lasermax's booths quite a bit I got to hear multiple stories of LEOs who achieved compliance only when a little laser dot appeared on the suspect's chest. One of these stories came from a M4C member, in fact. People like to say the de-escalation potential of a laser "won't stop determined criminals," too, but not all criminals are willing to take a bullet, believe it or not. Some are even -- you might want to sit down for this -- sort of cowardly.
That's true, and in some cases a bad guy may be reminded of his mortality by seeing the exact point where a bullet will strike his anatomy and he may think "Damn. That's gonna hurt!" and then decide that he'd rather not die today. It's another situation where if that works, great!
Still, if I am faced with a developing threat while armed with my CT equipped S&W 442 and my non-laser equipped G17 I'm more likely to try to go with the G17 as my primary because it is easier to shoot under stress and has more bullets than to draw my 442 in hopes of exploiting the possible intimidation factor of the laser. At that point it becomes a choice between the possible intimidation factor of the laser (which may or may not work) vs. having a more capable weapon in my hands to deal with the problem.
Upon what do you base that? Generations of LEOs used the shotgun to spectacular effect.
I'm not arguing that the shotgun isn't an effective weapon...it most certainly is when used with a good understanding of it's benefits and drawbacks. Still, there is a lot of legend and lore surrounding the shotgun and while most on M4C don't pay attention to that I regularly interact with lots of people who think a 12 gauge with birdshot will blow a bad guy in half at 20 yards. As Mr. Haught said previously, it is probably the most misunderstood and undertrained small arm out there.
Have you considered that if you put the same amount of money into accessories and training for a shotgun as you do for an AR, the shotgun just might become a much more effective weapon in your hands?
One of the great arguments in favor of the shotgun is that for considerably less money than a decent AR you can buy an 870, upgrade it's low light capability with a decent RDS and a light, and then still have plenty of money left over for training. That training will certainly help with running the weapon as efficiently as possible and will help get the most out of the platform.
All that being acknowledged, people don't train with them. Many people are flat out scared of them, especially smaller people. A FTO from Williamsburg I trained with told me about a female recruit who fired one shot from the 12 gauge during the academy (he was doing a rotation as firearms instructor at the time), dropped the weapon on the ground and quit the whole program. Now personally I don't see that as a great loss to the department because obviously she didn't have the right mindset to be a police officer, but I've seen a lot of girlfriends and wives who are in the same boat.
Repelling a horde of zombies? Sure, the capacity and fast reload of the AR has a huge advantage.
Engaging targets at distances beyond 100yd? Sure, the AR has a definite advantage.
More than a fast reload, the AR's ability to have between 20 and 30 rounds on tap that require only the squeeze of a trigger to send at someone who means to do you harm is an advantage. While the average home invader or 3rd striker on the street isn't likely to require that much persuasion, it's still nice to have it without having to reload....and if you do encounter that 1% you're in better shape with the carbine.
But those limitations have very little practical impact for the majority of people concerned with home defense or domestic LE patrol duties.
That's where I would really disagree. The reasons behind the law enforcement transition away from the shotgun in favor of the carbine are still pretty compelling reasons for anyone else selecting a long gun for personal defense. The carbine holds more ammo. It is easier to shoot well under stress for most people, especially those who don't train like they should. (And that includes the majority of people who pick up a gun for serious social purposes...few people have the dedication, time, and resources to train like they want to, including me...and I'm better motivated than most.)
To me the shotgun or carbine argument is a lot like the arguments about what someone should carry concealed on a daily basis. A J frame in the pocket does fulfill rule 1 and it has been used effectively on a number of documented occasions to thwart somebody with evil intent. For most situations a J frame might even be overkill. Still, most of us here prefer to leave the J frame as a backup while we carry some sort of high-capacity auto pistol and at least 1 spare magazine. Given that most bad guys run when you pull a gun and that most gunfights don't last more than a few rounds why do we carry all that extra hardware given that in most situations it's not likely to make a practical difference? It's not like a bad guy is going to laugh at a J frame but wet himself if we whip out a 9mm M&P.
The answer would be that while the J frame is a perfectly good little handgun that performs quite well, it still has some drawbacks. It has a limited capacity. It is hard to reload. It is harder to shoot accurately under stress.
...as long as you point it in the same general direction you are going to get some lead in the intruders butt...And the sound a shotgun makes is unmistakable to almost all people alive and is quite loud and like someone mentioned will scare all but "operators" who are paid to kill you..
This kind of foolishness is not at all helpful.
Yes or no, have you ever on one or more occasions had to rack a shotgun in the presense of someone you were confronting who intended to or was willing to engage in violent behavior?
I try to have rounds chambered before the confrontation. :D
Of course, I've also heard of bad guys who are pretty bold in the face of three officers with drawn sidearms, but when officer 4 shows up and points the same handgun at him the bad guy takes one look at him and obeys commands. The officer in question reported that as the bad guy was bent over the squad car getting checked for additional weapons he asked officer 4 "You were really going to shoot me, weren't you?"
There's a story told about a man who resisted arrest on a warrant issued by Andrew Jackson and who intimidated all the officers sent after him. Hearing this, Jackson was enraged, so he grabbed a pistol and went after the man himself. The man took a look at Jackson and dropped his weapons. When asked why it's reported that he said Jackson was the only one that had "shoot" in his eyes. I don't know if that old story is true or not, (wouldn't have been much of a stretch for Jackson) but the principle behind the story certainly is.
Insert any of a selection of cliches here -- "singer, not the song", etc.
Still, if I am faced with a developing threat while armed with my CT equipped S&W 442 and my non-laser equipped G17 I'm more likely to try to go with the G17 as my primary because it is easier to shoot under stress and has more bullets than to draw my 442 in hopes of exploiting the possible intimidation factor of the laser. At that point it becomes a choice between the possible intimidation factor of the laser (which may or may not work) vs. having a more capable weapon in my hands to deal with the problem.
Fair enough point. But, IMO there's a much greater stretch between J-frame/G17 than there is between carbine/shotgun.
One of the great arguments in favor of the shotgun is that for considerably less money than a decent AR you can buy an 870, upgrade it's low light capability with a decent RDS and a light...
For even less money because I don't consider a RDS an essential accessory for shotguns.
More than a fast reload, the AR's ability to have between 20 and 30 rounds on tap that require only the squeeze of a trigger to send at someone who means to do you harm is an advantage.
Or, with one pull of the trigger you could send nine projectiles at that same someone. With my shotgun I have 63 projectiles on deck. ;)
The reasons behind the law enforcement transition away from the shotgun in favor of the carbine are still pretty compelling reasons for anyone else selecting a long gun for personal defense. The carbine holds more ammo. It is easier to shoot well under stress for most people, especially those who don't train like they should.
That may be what they're saying now but, I believe the reasoning is/was body armor (North Hollyweird...)
Agreed, it was body armor issues that propelled the AR into mainstream LE use.
While I understand the capacity argument, I think it's blown way out of proportion. The 442/G17 analogy is unfair. The terminal effectiveness of good 12g or 20g ammo is so much greater than the best .38 +p load by orders of magnitude. Until you can show me some situations where home defenders ran out of shotgun ammo before the fight ended, it's all just "what if" justification to have the cooler gun.
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing that shotgun>AR as an absolute. But when the argument falls down to "people won't train with a shotgun" then something is seriously, seriously wrong. If we're going to compare a well trained AR shooter to a poorly trained shotgun shooter, what's the point?
Now if you want to compare a poorly trained AR shooter to a poorly trained shotgun shooter, I'll put my money on the shotgun guy every single time.
John_Wayne777
01-20-09, 10:32
The 442/G17 analogy is unfair. The terminal effectiveness of good 12g or 20g ammo is so much greater than the best .38 +p load by orders of magnitude.
I wasn't attempting to draw a direct comparison between the terminal effectiveness of the 442 vs. a shotgun. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that somebody who picked a 442 over a shotgun for a home defense role would be daft. (Assuming, of course, that they had access to both)
The comparison between the G17 and the 442 was meant to be a comparison between a weapon that holds more ammo and is easier to run under stress vs. one with less ammo that is harder to run under stress but may have an additional edge in the psychology department because of the laser. I think we can all agree that a properly loaded shotgun is plenty effective from a terminal ballistics standpoint, as is a properly loaded carbine.
If I have the choice (and it's not likely I will) I'd much rather have a long gun than a handgun. If I have a choice (and if I am in a police cruiser I might not have one) I'd much rather have a carbine than a shotgun. If it's a choice between the sidearm and the shotgun, picking the shotgun is a no-brainer.
Until you can show me some situations where home defenders ran out of shotgun ammo before the fight ended, it's all just "what if" justification to have the cooler gun.
...and as I pointed out, one could say the exact same thing about all that hardware we carry concealed. If I had a nickel for every time on TOS I've heard "if you need more than 5 shots you shouldn't be in the fight!" or something similar, I could probably buy a case of .223.
Well, at current prices maybe a couple of hundred rounds. From a statistical point of view, it's unlikely that you'll need more ammo than the 5 or so rounds you can fit in an 870 in a home defense or LE situation. Still, under stress it's possible to dump a lot of rounds at a threat in a hurry, even on a manually cycled weapon. It would be nice to have more than 5 -7 (depending on the length of the tube) rounds on tap to deal with the problem if you end up in one of those problems that's a statistical outlier.
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing that shotgun>AR as an absolute. But when the argument falls down to "people won't train with a shotgun" then something is seriously, seriously wrong.
I agree...but it's still the truth. If the choice for a home defense long gun is a shotgun that the wife won't touch versus a carbine that she will shoot at least occasionally, then the carbine is an infinitely better choice for her in addition to the greater capacity and easier operation under stress.
The shotgun is a good option, but I think a good argument can be made that the carbine is an even better option ceteris paribus.
JW -- I don't disagree with you often, my friend, but because of this thread I spoke to quite a few long-time LEOs at SHOT about these issues:
1. You actually have to aim a shotgun to hit anything with it....even if you're using bird shot.
No one with enough brain cells to blink on demand would argue that point.
Actually, we've had someone make that exact assertion in this thread:
I choose a shotgun (and not some 28" bird gun) because it is easy to maneuver and as long as you point it in the same general direction you are going to get some lead in the intruders butt..
I thought the discussion was about myths surrounding the shotgun, most notable among them, are..
Aiming is not mandatory, Racking the slide will send the bad guys running into the night, and its a guaranteed 1 shot stop.
All of those have been pretty soundly put to rest, despite what felix has to say.
I with JW777 on this, I'll take the AR everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday. That does not mean the shotgun is useless, or ineffective.
I also agree about the myth, lore etc surrounding it, much like the 1911.
Todd, you say its been used spectaculary, well probably, but how much of that is documented fact, as opposed to old timers, tell long tails, and memories that recall things differently, as the years add up, etc etc.?
We've seen a few stories of the success of the "racking" tactic. Again anything can work once, and i will not rely on it, nor give it a second thought. But, why can't racking a carbine or even pistol have the same effect? If he only hears the weapon, its doubtful he'll know the difference.
I can relay a story also, a former training Lt of mine, and retired Albuquerque SWAT/ROPe officer, with multiple gunfight wins to his credit, told me about a guy who missed with a shotgun from less then 7 meters, 4 times! He was talking about the fallacy of point shooting, but it fits here, as well.
And, I'm fairly certain if you look, you'll find more then one incident, where the shotgun, did not put the bad guy down, at least not with one shot, or blow him in 1/2.
As for brain cells, years ago, when I was sitting in Saudi Arabia, waiting to invade Iraq, for the first time, my company was given every shotgun in the BN, 10-20 Winchester 1300's, complete with vented hand guards and bayonet lugs. We removed those from at least some of them. We then started some mout training. Even then, with as little training as I had, I knew the best use for them would be breaching.
My squad leader on the other hand, believed shooting one round in the room would be the equivalent of throwing in an M67frag! When I explained the reality of choke and shot spread, he figured 3 would do the job:rolleyes:
Course, he also believed you should focus on the rear site, and his PASGT vest would stop a rifle round, or at least "slow it down", again.....:rolleyes:
I was trained to use an 870 at the DOE/CTA and later carried one at one facility, I've also carried an 11-87 elsewhere, and I've always had a harder time with it then the carbine, I've also watched others struggle with it, after 9/11, that facility collected up the 870 and issued AR's(bad ones), and overnight qual scores went up. Just some more anecdotal fuel for the fire.
Bob
Excellent points Todd!
Having spent a lot of time around Headhunter I'm a firm believer in shotguns. Everyone should have one and train with it. With training and the right ammo a 12g is a great weapon. Even for a home defense gun despite the current belief that they are not.
I'd love to train with Rob sometime.
Todd, you say its been used spectaculary, well probably, but how much of that is documented fact, as opposed to old timers, tell long tails, and memories that recall things differently, as the years add up, etc etc.?
So now we've come so far that we're going to pretend the shotgun wasn't successful for decades and decades as an LE weapon? Come on, that's not at all like you, man. It's one thing to say the AR/M4 is better in x-, y-, and/or z-category. It's another to act like it's less effective than it is.
Telling stories of people who completely misunderstand the shotgun doesn't change that fact, either. I could drive down to Capitol Hill tomorrow and speak with a few dozen people who dramatically misunderstand the AR/M4 platform, that doesn't diminish the gun in any way.
I certainly never claimed the shotgun was an ideal MOUT weapon nor the perfect choice to repel borders at a DOE facility. But as a home defense weapon it's pretty darn effective for most people in most situations.
So now we've come so far that we're going to pretend the shotgun wasn't successful for decades and decades as an LE weapon? Come on, that's not at all like you, man. It's one thing to say the AR/M4 is better in x-, y-, and/or z-category. It's another to act like it's less effective than it is.
I did not intend to say it was not or is not an effective tool. it certainly is, only that there is still a lot of folklore/myth involved, and I think "spectacularly" maybe a bit of a stretch. Just as saying every GI in the box is "clamouring for an M14" (they're not).
Telling stories of people who completely misunderstand the shotgun doesn't change that fact, either. I could drive down to Capitol Hill tomorrow and speak with a few dozen people who dramatically misunderstand the AR/M4 platform, that doesn't diminish the gun in any way.
Again my intent was only to illustrate, that some people who should know better, don't, and they buy/bought into the myth. And of course an example of where the myth was proven to be just that
I certainly never claimed the shotgun was an ideal MOUT weapon nor the perfect choice to repel borders at a DOE facility. But as a home defense weapon it's pretty darn effective for most people in most situations.
Nor was that my point, only again to illustrate that even shooters who've had training from some very good instructors, can struggle with the gun, and switching to the AR platform drove scores up, immediately.
I really did not want to get into the AR vs Shotgun debate, and should not have mentioned some of those things, but this thread drifted that way, perhaps it should be left for another thread.
I think the shotgun is a perfectly viable & effective, home defense weapon, I just don't buy the "no need to aim, just rack it, 1 shot stop" stuff.
BTW, if you saw what we had to "repel borders".... well i guess you'd be pleased and impressed.;)
Bob
Matt Edwards
01-22-09, 08:06
I with JW777 on this, I'll take the AR everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday. That does not mean the shotgun is useless, or ineffective.
For me, that is it in a nutshell.
No one, and certainly not R Moran, is saying or insinuating the shot gun is ineffective or doesn't have a place. Some of you seem to be debating with each other and are on the same side.
As far as having an untrained guy with a shot gun and an untrained guy with a carbine, both have there advantages. I would not be so quick to think it was the shotgunner. However, we would have to clarify the meaning of "untrained". I know and see an awful lot of GIs that I would consider "untrained", and some others may consider them having "advanced" training. We'd have to iron that out before I gave my answer on that topic.;)
I'll soon be a shot gun owner again. I can't pass up the price for a used 870 I found. I've been without one for years.
Nightstalker_360
01-22-09, 09:53
Taking into consideration that a 20 year old female weighing in at around 115 lbs is probably not an experienced shooter.
A shotgun is a very underestimated home defense tool. I would rather have her use a shotgun as a home defense weapon. The level of profficiency needed with a handgun is far above that of a shotgun. Not to mention if you have ever been in the situation where use of deadly force was needed, your ability to be proficient, as a unskilled shooter, will be greatly deminished. The shakes set in and the brain turns off everything but instinct and muscle memory. For a 2:30 a.m. encounter, a handgun takes a lot more thought.
This is were the shotgun comes into play for a 20 year old 115 lb female. It is a point and shoot weapon with minimal thought process needed to use. It also does not have the potential to over penetrate throught walls of the residence, with some shot loads, unlike handgun loads. You do not need OO buck to effectively engage a target at a distance of 15 to 20 feet. If you have more distance to cover then that you should be seeking a better tactical advantage (i.e. time, distance, cover.)
The idea is to survive the encounter, not have the coolest firearm.
BTW, if you saw what we had to "repel borders".... well i guess you'd be pleased and impressed.;)
I've known Rob Gee from DOE for quite a while. Believe me, I'm officially impressed. :cool:
FWIW, I agree completely that the shotgun is not a "don't have to aim" weapon, nor is it guaranteed to cause 1-shot stops. But swinging back around to the beginning of the thread, I would say it's much easier to hit with a shotgun than a handgun, especially for an untrained shooter (because it's a long gun, not because of shot spread); and, I'd say it's a lot more likely to drop someone with one shot than any common handgun.
I've known Rob Gee from DOE for quite a while. Believe me, I'm officially impressed. :cool:
FWIW, I agree completely that the shotgun is not a "don't have to aim" weapon, nor is it guaranteed to cause 1-shot stops. But swinging back around to the beginning of the thread, I would say it's much easier to hit with a shotgun than a handgun, especially for an untrained shooter (because it's a long gun, not because of shot spread); and, I'd say it's a lot more likely to drop someone with one shot than any common handgun.
See, we really do agree...sorta. But, see the post above your last, thats the stuff I take issue with.
Not sure if I know Rob, know where he works? PM me if you want.
Bob
Outlander Systems
01-22-09, 17:59
Chiming in:
I don't see the AR platform as an ideal home defense weapon, for me. I'd choose the scatter-blaster.
Reasons:
I'm not taking long range shots inside my home.
I don't want to look like I was "itchin' for a killin' " when the judge sees the weapon used in defense, since my ARs don't look very "defensive".
A shotgun, for me, requires more conscious thought to fire, thusly I see a reduced risk of the 2AM negligent discharge. My ARs have had trigger jobs and are extremely light to the press. Something I think is fantastic when I'm fully competent and aware, but I don't know if that's a strong point when I'm still half dreaming of Sarah Palin in a bikini, and someone's trying to rape my dog and jack my boob-tube.
This may be totally faulty logic, but in an "Oh Shit!" reactive situation, I'd like to deliver the most amount of mass to the bad guy(s) as possible. The shotgun definitely does it. I'm assuming the rapid blood loss from a shotgun's payload would be more immediately noticable than a .223. Again, I could be wrong, and this is a good thread for weeding out misconceptions. I'm under the belief that immediate and rapid blood loss is what will drop the bad guys the fastest, short of a critical shot to a vital organ or the noggin.
Chiming in:
I don't see the AR platform as an ideal home defense weapon, for me. I'd choose the scatter-blaster.
Reasons:
I'm not taking long range shots inside my home.
I don't want to look like I was "itchin' for a killin' " when the judge sees the weapon used in defense, since my ARs don't look very "defensive".
A shotgun, for me, requires more conscious thought to fire, thusly I see a reduced risk of the 2AM negligent discharge. My ARs have had trigger jobs and are extremely light to the press. Something I think is fantastic when I'm fully competent and aware, but I don't know if that's a strong point when I'm still half dreaming of Sarah Palin in a bikini, and someone's trying to rape my dog and jack my boob-tube.
This may be totally faulty logic, but in an "Oh Shit!" reactive situation, I'd like to deliver the most amount of mass to the bad guy(s) as possible. The shotgun definitely does it. I'm assuming the rapid blood loss from a shotgun's payload would be more immediately noticable than a .223. Again, I could be wrong, and this is a good thread for weeding out misconceptions. I'm under the belief that immediate and rapid blood loss is what will drop the bad guys the fastest, short of a critical shot to a vital organ or the noggin.
Most everything you just said is as wrong as "two boys f*cking."
I would suggest removing the 3 gun triggers from your AR's & get training.
C4
Outlander Systems
01-22-09, 22:00
"This may be totally faulty logic..."
"I'm assuming the rapid blood loss from a shotgun's payload would be more immediately noticable than a .223. Again, I could be wrong, and this is a good thread for weeding out misconceptions..."
Grant, bro, I'm here to learn. Steer me right. My problem with the shotgun is that it's way too long for manuevering inside the house, but I think the tradeoff is more power per shot than a handgun. I'm back and forth on the AR as home defender, since everything on this issue is a tradeoff.
As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.
From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Below are the wound profiles comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/HomecarbineWP.jpg?t=1232698319
Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…
In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if there are multiple criminals assaulting me or in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun.
Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 Garand, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.
Doc,
I think you screwed this whole thread up by interjecting some thought and common sense into it.
As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.
From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Below are the wound profiles comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/HomecarbineWP.jpg?t=1232698319
Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…
In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if there are multiple criminals assaulting me or in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun.
Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 Garand, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.
DocGKR -- Have you done any testing with the new Speer .30 Carbine Gold Dot round?
Nope, haven't seen any in the stores around here. Does anyone have a box they want to send?
From SHOT (sorry for the crappy iPhone pic):
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/speer30carbineGD.jpg
HAIL-CAESAR
01-23-09, 18:38
Thanks Doc for ruining a great " Shotguns are worthless, AR's are best for everything and everybody!" threads. How dare you interject logic and facts. ;)
I can't believe that this thread is still going.
I can't believe that this thread is still going.
:D:D
hell tell her to get a dog and be done with it because she would probably shoot herself in the pinky toe if she had a gun:p
This was one interesting thread. I know nothing about using shotguns for tactical or home defense, and don't even own a shotgun. I have an AR in my closet and a semiauto pistol in the nightstand, and based on the info in this thread, will probably keep what I have. Plus I have a really tough King Charles Cavalier Spaniel (such a big name for such a little dog) who would most likely scare an invader away by licking him to death, just trying to be friendly and get a handout!
Anyway it was really informative to see different sides of the debate. And DocGkr tied it off nicely.
if I was a bad guy these days meaning to do you harm ? and I heard a shotgun rack I might just dump a clip from my stolen whatever stolen gun I have with me through the door toward the sound !!!!! these days to me racking a gun is like others have said giving away your position and the fact you are armed so they know to come in shooting which has happened these days in home invasions !!!!!
with the break ins and home invasions I hear about now its always at least 3 or more people rushing in with guns drawn
vs the old days of the guy sneaking in trying to be quiet
I used to love shotguns but now I prefer having something else
I can pull off 8 rounds of 5.56 much more controlled and quicker than I can 8 rounds of 00 buck
to me the shotgun is a great tool but one that does not have the same place as they used to since times have changed
I can pull off 8 rounds of 5.56 much more controlled and quicker than I can 8 rounds of 00 buck
Just food for thought -- let's say you can get 8 rounds out of your rifle/carbine in 2 seconds, while I get only 2 rounds out of a shotgun in 2 seconds. You get 8 projectiles on target for 8 shots in 2 seconds. I get 18 projectiles on target for 2 shots in 2 seconds...
Just food for thought -- let's say you can get 8 rounds out of your rifle/carbine in 2 seconds, while I get only 2 rounds out of a shotgun in 2 seconds. You get 8 projectiles on target for 8 shots in 2 seconds. I get 18 projectiles on target for 2 shots in 2 seconds...
Which prompts discussion of the next big shotgun myth... Getting hit with 9 pellets of buckshot isn't necessarily like getting shot nine times at once.
I'll take the 8rds of a quality carbine load over 18 round balls of typical buck.
So I am sitting in my shop today and in walks a twenty something girl with her parents. She has been looking for a gun for self defense (not CCW) and wanted to see what we had to offer. We show her M&P's, snubby revolvers, Walther PPS and some other odds and ends.
She then asks about shotguns. I explain some of the issues with them for home defense and ask her why she was interested in them (as most 115lbs girls have little interest in shooting these). She tells us that the other gun stores she had visited told here that this was the best choice for her.
Once I heard this, I asked her if they told her that the sound of racking the shotgun would scare off the bad guy?? She said yes! I said did they also tell you that you do not have to aim a shotgun either? She said yes! :rolleyes:
So yet again, my fellow gun store owners are perpetuating two of the biggest defensive lies ever told. :mad:
C4
Most people at gun store remind me of private trainers in gyms: they are supposed to know what they are doing/talking about, but usually don't. I was in a store the other day with the GF as she is getting her CCW. I wanted her to look at and get a feel for different guns. In MA we have a limited choice, but I digress. I told her about things such as trigger pull, such as 1911s being SA and the Kahr (as reference because she has shot one) was DA. I then mentioned some guns, such as Sig, will have a DA followed by SA trigger pull. The guy in the store over hears this and says "you have it backwards, the Sigs goes SA to DA." I said "now what sense would that make?" trying no to roll my eyes and all that. It really does not help make it easy for a person getting into guns when they hear totally opposite opinions on stuff like that. :rolleyes:
Just food for thought -- let's say you can get 8 rounds out of your rifle/carbine in 2 seconds, while I get only 2 rounds out of a shotgun in 2 seconds. You get 8 projectiles on target for 8 shots in 2 seconds. I get 18 projectiles on target for 2 shots in 2 seconds...
I hear ya but at least in my neck of the woods seems you get at least 3-6 perps at one time !
and with 4 perps :) you only got two of them :)
thats what I mean
if the common bad guy scenario is 1 or 2 guys then a shotgun can be a good tool
if the common is 4-6 guys I would rather have another tool
again not saying the shotgun is not viable just not for me ;)
also edited to add :) that there have been a few cases now of body armor on these guys when they break in !!!!! so again body armor vs shotgun ? or body armor vs 5.56
give me the 5.56 to hedge my bets
As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.
From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Below are the wound profiles comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/HomecarbineWP.jpg?t=1232698319
Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…
In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if there are multiple criminals assaulting me or in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun.
Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 Garand, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.
I wonder what the 55 grain fmj 5.56 would look like as well as the Speer Gold Dot 30 carbine in a comparison.
browningboy84
02-25-09, 09:52
As a paramedic, I can tell you one thing for certain. The damage from a GSW is two fold. First is the wound channel that that produces bleeding, and is very straightforward. Second is the cavitation that is produced when the bullet goes through the body. Multiple projectiles hitting a person produces multiple opportunity for blood loss, also known as hypovolemic shock. Second, the cavitation effect, the shockwave the bullet produces as it flies through the person, causes damage to solid organs, and blood vessels. Hollow organs, like your lungs, can handle the cavitation better than solid organs. 9 times out of 10, GSW victims die from one of 2 things, blood loss or infection if they are lucky to survive for 24 hours. My wife has a 20guage youth Model browning 20 guage for home defense. The recoild does bother her a little bit, but a Limbsaver recoil pad on the buttstock made things very managable for her. It is loaded with 00 buck, and I would rather take care of someone who has been shot with a .223 than a shotgun load of 00 buck. I have taken care of a man who had been shot with .40 cal hydrashoks and took 3 in the chest. He survived, and was out of the hospital in a week. Bottom line, I will take a shotgun over an AR for home defense any day, unless I am faced with more than 3 intruders. Then it will be my trusty AR to defend my home.
CarlosDJackal
02-25-09, 18:41
...I asked her if they told her that the sound of racking the shotgun would scare off the bad guy?? She said yes! I said did they also tell you that you do not have to aim a shotgun either? She said yes! :rolleyes:
So yet again, my fellow gun store owners are perpetuating two of the biggest defensive lies ever told. :mad:
C4
Sadly, I hear this from our "Certified" Firearms Instructors all the time. They will stand before a bunch of recruits and trainees and speak just how great the Shotgun is and about it can do EVERYTHING an AR or any rifle can do. :rolleyes:
When I ask them if the venerable Shotgun can penetrate soft body armor some will state that while it will not the force of the shot will pick anyone up and throw them across the room. While others will argue that flechette rounds will penetrate body armor. When I ask them where I can buy such rounds none of them can even give me an answer.
Another question I ask them is if they can use a 12 GA to do a hostage-rescue shot at 50 or 100-yards. One insists that he has seen a 12GA shotgun make such a shot repeatedly at 100-yards. But when I press him of the make and model he will admit that it was from a bench and the gun was a single shot that had a scope mounted and was too heavy to shoot offhand.
I've pretty much given up trying to correct these so-called experts. It's pretty sad, really. Don't get me wrong, I still think that there is a place in the cruiser for a shotgun. But I am in no way convinced that they are interchangeable.
Another myth I hear about Shotguns all the time is using birdshot for self defense is okay because it is just as lethal as a slug!!
g5m--The Speer Gold Dot .30 Carbine round wound profile will look exactly the same the WP in the illustration. A 5.56 mm M193 type 55 gr FMJ will be more variable and less damaging than the 75 gr OTM shown; read: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26905
browningboy84--You're close regarding wounding mechanisms, but not dead on. Keep in mind that penetrating projectiles damage tissue through two wounding mechanisms: the tissue in the projectile’s path is permanently crushed and the tissue surrounding the projectile’s path is temporarily stretched. A penetrating projectile physically crushes and destroys tissue as it cuts its path through the body. The space occupied by this pulped and disintegrated tissue is referred to as the permanent cavity. The permanent cavity, or wound track, is quite simply the hole bored by the projectile's passage. Obviously, bullets of greater diameter crush more tissue, forming a larger permanent cavity. The formation of this permanent cavity is consistent and reliable.
The tissue surrounding the permanent cavity is briefly pushed laterally aside as it is centrifugally driven radially outward by the projectile's passage. The empty space normally occupied by the momentarily displaced tissue surrounding the wound track, is called the temporary cavity. The temporary cavity quickly subsides as the elastic recoil of the stretched tissue returns it towards the wound track. The tissue that was stretched by the permanent cavity may be injured and is analogous to an area of blunt trauma surrounding the permanent crush cavity. The degree of injury produced by temporary cavitation is quite variable, erratic, and highly dependent on anatomic and physiologic considerations. Many flexible, elastic soft tissues such as muscle, bowel wall, skin, blood vessels, and empty hollow organs are good energy absorbers and are highly resistant to the blunt trauma and contusion caused by the stretch of temporary cavitation. Inelastic tissues such as the liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs, such as the bladder, are highly susceptible to severe permanent splitting, tearing, and rupture due to temporary cavitation insults. Projectiles are traveling at their maximum velocity when they initially strike and then slow as they travel through tissue. In spite of this, the maximum temporary cavity is not always found at the surface where the projectile is at its highest velocity, but often deeper in the tissue after it has slowed considerably. The maximum temporary cavitation is usually coincidental with that of maximum bullet yaw, deformation, or fragmentation, but not necessarily maximum projectile velocity.
All projectiles that penetrate the body can only disrupt tissue by these two wounding mechanisms: the localized crushing of tissue in the bullet's path and the transient stretching of tissue adjacent to the wound track. Projectile wounds differ in the amount and location of crushed and stretched tissue. The relative contribution by each of these mechanisms to any wound depends on the physical characteristics of the projectile, its size, weight, shape, construction, and velocity, penetration depth and the type of tissue with which the projectile interacts. Unlike rifle bullets, handgun bullets, regardless of whether they are fired from pistols or SMG’s, generally only disrupt tissue by the crush mechanism. In addition, temporary cavitation from most handgun bullets does not reliably damage tissue and is not usually a significant mechanism of wounding.
g5m--The Speer Gold Dot .30 Carbine round wound profile will look exactly the same the WP in the illustration. A 5.56 mm M193 type 55 gr FMJ will be more variable and less damaging than the 75 gr OTM shown; read: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26905
browningboy84--You're close regarding wounding mechanisms, but not dead on. Keep in mind that penetrating projectiles damage tissue through two wounding mechanisms: the tissue in the projectile’s path is permanently crushed and the tissue surrounding the projectile’s path is temporarily stretched. A penetrating projectile physically crushes and destroys tissue as it cuts its path through the body. The space occupied by this pulped and disintegrated tissue is referred to as the permanent cavity. The permanent cavity, or wound track, is quite simply the hole bored by the projectile's passage. Obviously, bullets of greater diameter crush more tissue, forming a larger permanent cavity. The formation of this permanent cavity is consistent and reliable.
The tissue surrounding the permanent cavity is briefly pushed laterally aside as it is centrifugally driven radially outward by the projectile's passage. The empty space normally occupied by the momentarily displaced tissue surrounding the wound track, is called the temporary cavity. The temporary cavity quickly subsides as the elastic recoil of the stretched tissue returns it towards the wound track. The tissue that was stretched by the permanent cavity may be injured and is analogous to an area of blunt trauma surrounding the permanent crush cavity. The degree of injury produced by temporary cavitation is quite variable, erratic, and highly dependent on anatomic and physiologic considerations. Many flexible, elastic soft tissues such as muscle, bowel wall, skin, blood vessels, and empty hollow organs are good energy absorbers and are highly resistant to the blunt trauma and contusion caused by the stretch of temporary cavitation. Inelastic tissues such as the liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs, such as the bladder, are highly susceptible to severe permanent splitting, tearing, and rupture due to temporary cavitation insults. Projectiles are traveling at their maximum velocity when they initially strike and then slow as they travel through tissue. In spite of this, the maximum temporary cavity is not always found at the surface where the projectile is at its highest velocity, but often deeper in the tissue after it has slowed considerably. The maximum temporary cavitation is usually coincidental with that of maximum bullet yaw, deformation, or fragmentation, but not necessarily maximum projectile velocity.
All projectiles that penetrate the body can only disrupt tissue by these two wounding mechanisms: the localized crushing of tissue in the bullet's path and the transient stretching of tissue adjacent to the wound track. Projectile wounds differ in the amount and location of crushed and stretched tissue. The relative contribution by each of these mechanisms to any wound depends on the physical characteristics of the projectile, its size, weight, shape, construction, and velocity, penetration depth and the type of tissue with which the projectile interacts. Unlike rifle bullets, handgun bullets, regardless of whether they are fired from pistols or SMG’s, generally only disrupt tissue by the crush mechanism. In addition, temporary cavitation from most handgun bullets does not reliably damage tissue and is not usually a significant mechanism of wounding.
Hi Doc, I am amazed by your patience and professionalism at relaying this information repeatedly as though it were the first time. however, looking at the illustration, I do have a question about the permanent cavity.
I suppose that the projectile will crush a greater area after it has been expanded. so, is it correct to assume that a bullet which expands quicker will create a permanent cavity with greater volume? is this significant?
Doc, what range was the shotgun impacts?
I'm a firm beleiver in accounting for ALL of my rounds fired. I don't consider a pattern to be accounting. In this litigatious (is that a word?) time we live in, I firmly beleive I can make a better court case FOR a weapon that fires ONE bullet down a precise path, than one can make for a shotgun.
Several LE dept's have gone to Patrol Carbines after lawsuits due to unintended consequences with Shotgun Buck Shot patterns...
My wife and I own two dog's, and guns, admittedly my 1911 w/300 is my bump in the night gun, as we live in an apartment, and a long gun is a little much for the distances... (its a small apartment).
If I need to take a longer shot, my M4-Recce is nearby...
"I suppose that the projectile will crush a greater area after it has been expanded. so, is it correct to assume that a bullet which expands quicker will create a permanent cavity with greater volume? is this significant?"
All well designed projectiles will upset within the first 3 inches, some even earlier; projectiles which fail to offer early upset in lab testing have tended to have much more variable results in the field.
"Doc, what range was the shotgun impacts?"
All shots were done a 10 feet.
One of our local LE agencies had an OIS incident several years ago where an officer fired 00 buckshot at a threat about 30 yards away--one of the pellets that missed the intended target went on to hit and kill a fellow officer in a downrange blocking position about 60 yards away.
Slugs allow shotguns to "fire ONE bullet down a precise path"...
One well publicised incident (in Canada) was the Connie Jacos shooting in Canada, on the Sarcee Indian Reserve by the RCMP. Connie, 37, and Ty were killed March 22, 1998 by a single shotgun blast from Okotoks RCMP Const. Dave Voller, responding to gunfire from Connie.
http://www.justice.gov.ab.ca/downloads/jacobs_inquiry/ctj-inquiry-mar17.html
GLOCKMASTER
02-28-09, 08:46
Kevin thank you for taking the time to post that link. ;)
Just read this on another board in reference to silenced 9mm for defense. (the poster made it clear that he was not joking) :rolleyes:
Silenced 9mm for home defense? Too many liability issues. Just grab the 870 or Mossberg, much more effective, discouraging to the criminals when they hear the pump action and aim doesn't have to be nearly as good when the adrenaline's up. Leave the can off for home protection unless your goals are for more firearms regulation/bad press
LockenLoad
09-13-09, 21:00
A shotgun isn't really good for home defense until you put a bayonet on it ;)
The nice thing is that you have a really nice stick when you run out of ammo.
That being said, I'll take 20rnds of 9mm in my Sig P226 over a shotgun. I know less total lead, but about 3 times as many holes spread out over time.
Shotgun or pistol? Whatever you get matters less than if you have a dog. I'll take a dog and a knife, over a gun without a dog. Of course you need a real dog.
I guess my dog is real he just recovered from a rattle snake bite, and if don't know you uh oh, I have a yippy yoda eared dog to aleart my pit if he is sleeping too good
I just wouldn't even list "racking the shotgun" as a REAL reason to buy a shotgun as a defensive weapon. That is all I am saying. It ranks right up there with people saying that the XS big dot is faster. :rolleyes:
C4
I have an XS big dot on my carry pistol and it sure seems to be faster to acquire in my field of vision. Could you kindly explain where you find disagreement with this claim?
I don't mean to say that it is significantly faster than another high visibility sight; just that it is a bit more obvious in the field of vision than most factory sights, which leads to SLIGHTLY faster acquisition. Your comment stood out to me, so I would appreciate any insight you could offer.
xjustintimex
12-07-11, 01:59
I guess my dog is real he just recovered from a rattle snake bite, and if don't know you uh oh, I have a yippy yoda eared dog to aleart my pit if he is sleeping too good
do your dogs bark if your actual door handle is being messed with? Ive always been amused at how my mutts will bark at anything they see move outside or the sound of a penny dropping.... pizza guy at the door? full attack mode... yet if someone inserts a key in the door or plays with the handle they just get excited and quiet:ph34r: :o
also personally I feel more secure with my shotgun abilities in a dynamic situation than I do with my ar. This basically comes down to the amount of time I have walking around bird hunting exc with a shotgun where the majority of my ar shooting is static. I hope once I get into some competitions/training that will change but for now if I had my shotgun and ar sitting next to each other and I had to choose which one I was going to defend my house with it would be the shotty.
Thomas M-4
12-07-11, 02:17
Well I have read this thread before and stud out of it.
I guess I am a conundrum shhyy my life's story :rolleyes:
I have used a SG for a home invasion yes it does work for that role it is not my first choice tho a AR or a AK would still be my first choice if I had to grab something to defend my family with.
I have an XS big dot on my carry pistol and it sure seems to be faster to acquire in my field of vision. Could you kindly explain where you find disagreement with this claim?
I don't mean to say that it is significantly faster than another high visibility sight; just that it is a bit more obvious in the field of vision than most factory sights, which leads to SLIGHTLY faster acquisition. Your comment stood out to me, so I would appreciate any insight you could offer.
With proper training, they really aren't any faster than anything else. Couple that with the fact that if you are shooting at distance, you are SOL.
C4
NCPatrolAR
12-07-11, 14:19
I have an XS big dot on my carry pistol and it sure seems to be faster to acquire in my field of vision. Could you kindly explain where you find disagreement with this claim?
I don't mean to say that it is significantly faster than another high visibility sight; just that it is a bit more obvious in the field of vision than most factory sights, which leads to SLIGHTLY faster acquisition. Your comment stood out to me, so I would appreciate any insight you could offer.
I used Big Dots on 1911 for about 3 months and saw an increase in my times when on the clock. The other two guys I teach with had the same experience but with them mounted on G19s
Failure2Stop
12-07-11, 14:38
How many IDPA/USPSA Masters/GMs use them?
Clue.
If any shooter than could consistently hit a 3x5 card from concealment at 7 yards in 1.4 seconds with "normal" sights suddenly drop to 1.3 seconds with the addition of "Big Dots", I might listen to the claims of increased speed.
So far I have failed to see any proof of the claims.
The problem with accuracy at speed is rarely "not seeing" the front sight, but rather, not seeing it where it needs to be or failing to have proper sight appreciation; which doesn't have much to do with gross size of front sight (when within the normal front sight range).
just gimme a scattergun.But in a rough scene, I ain't worried, my guys got it/them covered.Period
Anybody want to get up a group buy on some bayonets?
the big dots are a solution for aging eyes. if you've already got good eyesight having a larger sight isn't going to increase accuracy or speed. however, if you're at a point where your LD vision is not bad enough to need glasses but you wear reading glasses, you're probably not seeing the front sight as good as you could.
I wear progressive lenses and I've been searching for something that gives me a clear sharp focus on the front sight. I went to my eye doctor and had him make me a set of shooting glasses that focused about where my front sight is. problem with that is I can't see far and I can't read with them on.
whatever you do, don't get old...
just gimme a scattergun.But in a rough scene, I ain't worried, my guys got it/them covered.Period
Uh, what???
C4
Uh, what???
C4
double uh????:confused:
I just came across this thread.
Not to be late to the party, but in response to the OP, I would recommend a pistol over a shotgun for the simple reason the pistol would more than likely be stored in a night stand drawer. Keep a white light on it. It would be very easy to deploy should something go bump.
I have no issue with sleeping with a carbine with a mag in it next to my bed, but I doubt a woman would want to leave a shotgun in the open like that. It's hard enough living with a woman and having to navigate around the 300 pillows now on the bed. It's like they reproduce...
As to the shotgun racking, I think there is something to it, but I would never depend on it to stop anyone.
I think this is where some common sense has to enter into play. During the day or when you aren't home you simply lock the AR/shotgun up. At night or when you are home (assuming there aren't kids or others in the area) you pull it out and keep it handy.
I just came across this thread.
Not to be late to the party, but in response to the OP, I would recommend a pistol over a shotgun for the simple reason the pistol would more than likely be stored in a night stand drawer. Keep a white light on it. It would be very easy to deploy should something go bump.
I have no issue with sleeping with a carbine with a mag in it next to my bed, but I doubt a woman would want to leave a shotgun in the open like that. It's hard enough living with a woman and having to navigate around the 300 pillows now on the bed. It's like they reproduce...
As to the shotgun racking, I think there is something to it, but I would never depend on it to stop anyone.
I think this is where some common sense has to enter into play. During the day or when you aren't home you simply lock the AR/shotgun up. At night or when you are home (assuming there aren't kids or others in the area) you pull it out and keep it handy.
Do you think a 20 something old girl would really do that?
Generalpie
12-17-11, 02:53
Do you think a 20 something old girl would really do that?
Nope. However, that very well means she won't take the initiative to learn the gun and may be better off without it.
All long guns are intimidating when you on looking at the small end. A determined attacker likely won't be scared away by a shotgun noise but the vast majority are by a homeowner, especially an armed one.
*NM, saw the last posting date.
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