View Full Version : Ahmaud Arbery Trial
I am confused why Kyle Rittenhouse's actions are painted as white supremacy but the president has not weighed in on this trial. I honestly thought it was a slam dunk and 3 guys will be in prison for hunting down and murdering a black man.
Is the trial less in the limelight because it is so clear cut, or is it possible they will be found to have shot Ahmaud in self defense?
I have not been following the trial too closely.
Andy
Not saying I have insider information here, but remember how the media lied about Kyle? Yeah…
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It's politics, pure and simple. The men who killed Ahmaud Arbery used a shotgun. Kyle Rittenhouse used an AR-15. A shotgun is considered a sporting firearm and an AR-15 is considered a military style firearm.
The end result of being shot by either weapon was the same.
Inkslinger
11-24-21, 08:48
I’m very conflicted on this. Should the three man have chased him down with firearms and attempted a “citizens arrest”? Considering their though that he was a burglar entering a property that didn’t belong to either of the three, no. But when you see the video of Arbery trying to wrestle the gun away, are you supposed to let him and take the chance that he doesn’t start shooting back? I think about if I was in his position. Three armed men stop me claiming citizens arrest. Ok, I’m sure they would have to get LEO there for the actual arrest. Fine, bring the cops and let them sort this out. What I’m not going to do is try to wrestle a gun away from any of them. As wrong as they were morally in doing what they did, I can’t see it as being wrong legally.
These men chased a man down for over 4 minutes, they attempted to violate his Constitutional right to freedom of travel and freedom to not talk to people you don't want to talk to. They had ZERO evidence that he had just committed a crime.
I watched the video, it isn't clear if the black guy did in fact try to disarm the white guy.
Lastly the 3rd suspect stated that the old man used the "N" word while standing over the dead or dying black guy.
These 3 white guys were 100% wrong and I hope they are convicted and enjoy genpop.
The case is ultimately about whether they had probable cause to believe Arbery was committing a felony when they tried to pull a citizen's arrest under GA law. Far as I understand it, it's all built on that aspect of GA law. From what I understand, it sounds like they are on very thin ice with that as the crux of their defense. Whether we think they were racially motivated (and I do personally), there has to be evidence of that, and make the case they would not have done the same for a white kid who'd walked around the construction site.
I do tend to think it's just what it appears, a racially motivated event that went sideways in a manner they'd not expected, but whether the evidence demonstrates it, and that nullifies the laws, etc, is another matter.
I have not been watching this case as I did the other, so can't comment in depth. I suspect they will be found guilty of at least some of the charges from what others I know who have been watching the case are saying.
BoringGuy45
11-24-21, 10:06
I’m very conflicted on this. Should the three man have chased him down with firearms and attempted a “citizens arrest”? Considering their though that he was a burglar entering a property that didn’t belong to either of the three, no. But when you see the video of Arbery trying to wrestle the gun away, are you supposed to let him and take the chance that he doesn’t start shooting back? I think about if I was in his position. Three armed men stop me claiming citizens arrest. Ok, I’m sure they would have to get LEO there for the actual arrest. Fine, bring the cops and let them sort this out. What I’m not going to do is try to wrestle a gun away from any of them. As wrong as they were morally in doing what they did, I can’t see it as being wrong legally.
In pretty much every state, you can't do a citizen's arrest unless you witness a crime. You certainly can't stop and detain a guy based on suspicion. Even the police have to be able to articulate a good reason why they had reasonable suspicion to stop somebody, and a "black guy in a white neighborhood," hasn't flown as a reason for about 40 years now.
As to Arbery trying to take the gun, I can see both sides of that. If someone tries to take my gun, I have reason to fear that he's going to use it against me. But on the other hand, if I'm Arbery, and three strange guys armed with shotguns jump out of a pickup truck and tell me that they're conducting a citizens arrest, how do I know that they're not going to shoot me if I try to run away? How do I know that, if I cooperate, I'm not going to end up hanging from a tree? What reason do I have to believe that they'll call the police to handle the matter? I'm thinking I may be a dead man unless I resist, so I go for broke and try one last ditch effort to save my own life.
I don't know if I would convict these guys of murder; it's hard to do when the defendants claim self-defense because you need to prove malice. But manslaughter? False imprisonment? Absolutely.
SomeOtherGuy
11-24-21, 10:10
Haven't been watching it, but there is detailed legal commentary at:
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/11/arbery-case-state-closing-rebuttal-presents-as-frantic-pleading-desperate/
and other articles on that site.
I haven't reached any personal conclusion on whether the defendants are guilty or not. It seems clear that they are not the best of people, and probably racist. It also seems clear that the deceased was acting exactly like a burglar, and almost certainly was an actual burglar, to a degree that constitutes a felony under Georgia law. There's a lot of background context in various articles there which I haven't seen in the MSM coverage - big surprise. Like it or not, at the time of the incident Georgia law was fairly broad on citizen's arrests, and the defendants have a credible defense of being within the law to try and arrest him.
As for less media coverage - I think the leftist media (did I just stutter?) is trying to scare ordinary good white people into being helpless sheep for the slaughter. Based on defendants' appearances, Kyle was a better show trial and persecution for this goal than the Georgia defendants are. Few people are going to identify with the GA defendants, and therefore a conviction of them won't scare ordinary people much.
Whether we think they were racially motivated (and I do personally), there has to be evidence of that, and make the case they would not have done the same for a white kid who'd walked around the construction site.
I do tend to think it's just what it appears, a racially motivated event that went sideways in a manner they'd not expected, but whether the evidence demonstrates it, and that nullifies the laws, etc, is another matter..
I have problems with the fact, they chased him for so long. They suspected he had committed a burglary days earlier, but presented no evidence that I know of that he committed a crime on that day.
If 3 guys were chasing me for almost 5 minutes, I would be afraid for my life or grievous bodily harm. Since I am always armed, I would have picked my location and turned on them and none of them would walk out of my ambush.
The fact that the third guy gave a statement to the police stating that the father used the N word while standing over the body. Changes the whole incident .
Then the son stated that his father was looking for a person to make an example of, and didn't care if he went to prison over it.
I would vote guilty
Averageman
11-24-21, 10:42
I have problems with the fact, they chased him for so long. They suspected he had committed a burglary days earlier, but presented no evidence that I know of that he committed a crime on that day.
If 3 guys were chasing me for almost 5 minutes, I would be afraid for my life or grievous bodily harm. Since I am always armed, I would have picked my location and turned on them and none of them would walk out of my ambush.
The fact that the third guy gave a statement to the police stating that the father used the N word while standing over the body. Changes the whole incident .
Then the son stated that his father was looking for a person to make an example of, and didn't care if he went to prison over it.
I would vote guilty
This, a thousand times.
My Son is bi-racial. One morning I get up for work @ 04:30 (which is three hours before he wakes up) and I notice the front door is unlocked and Jr aint in his room. He was out, wanted to put some extra cardio in before practise. He was running accross town in the dark.
One of the hardest conversations we ever had, I had to explain to him that there are folks out there that would see a young black man running past there house and give chase. If for no other reason that they want trouble and that they may be very dangerous and shoot at him.
These guys, all three of them made a very bad decison and they deserve to pay for it with their lives.
As for less media coverage - I think the leftist media (did I just stutter?) is trying to scare ordinary good white people into being helpless sheep for the slaughter. Based on defendants' appearances, Kyle was a better show trial and persecution for this goal than the Georgia defendants are. Few people are going to identify with the GA defendants, and therefore a conviction of them won't scare ordinary people much.
I think this analysis is spot on.
I have problems with the fact, they chased him for so long. They suspected he had committed a burglary days earlier, but presented no evidence that I know of that he committed a crime on that day.
If 3 guys were chasing me for almost 5 minutes, I would be afraid for my life or grievous bodily harm. Since I am always armed, I would have picked my location and turned on them and none of them would walk out of my ambush.
The fact that the third guy gave a statement to the police stating that the father used the N word while standing over the body. Changes the whole incident .
Then the son stated that his father was looking for a person to make an example of, and didn't care if he went to prison over it.
I would vote guilty
The amount of time they chased him does not matter to me, what matters to me is if they had legal justification at all to chase him under GA law, be it 30 secs or 30 mins. If they had legal justification, they can rely on their (thin...) self defense claim when Arbery went for the gun and was shot. If they don't have that, then I'd think their entire case falls apart.
Whether Arbery thought his life was on the line and went for the gun is secondary to the above as I understand it.
Whether they are racist POS, I'm unclear what impact that has on the above and or if they have enough evidence to make it stick in court with the above factors in play. I tend to think they will be convicted of at least some of the charges.
Being racist and calling some N-word this or that isn’t and should not be a crime. Nor should motivation for a crime change punishment.
Remember Rosenbaum? He’s a “hero” and said, “kill me nigger” about ten times.
As this goes down I can see both sides of this. You go for my gun, I shoot you, it’s self defense. The deceased could claim self-defense in going for the gun, were he alive; already facing disparity of force with three on one.
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Averageman
11-24-21, 12:00
The amount of time they chased him does not matter to me, what matters to me is if they had legal justification at all to chase him under GA law, be it 30 secs or 30 mins. If they had legal justification, they can rely on their (thin...) self defense claim when Arbery went for the gun and was shot. If they don't have that, then I'd think their entire case falls apart. \
I think the timeline and how long they chased him is relevant because the longer an event goes on, the more the stress effects the decison making abilities.
If you've chased someone out of your neighborhood, why in the hell are you still chasing?
Doesn't anyone in Georgia have a Cell Phone? Why not call the Police, follow, observe and report?
Why in the name of everything Holy, do you jump out of the Truck, armed and confrontational?
If I chase you until your winded and out of breath, perhaps no longer able to run, what are your options now that you've got a gun in your face?
Then after you've shot the guy, call him a Nigger?
No, this is some racisit B/S and if the colors were reversed you guys would be howling for blood.
I think the timeline and how long they chased him is relevant because the longer an event goes on, the more the stress effects the decison making abilities.
If you've chased someone out of your neighborhood, why in the hell are you still chasing?
Doesn't anyone in Georgia have a Cell Phone? Why not call the Police, follow, observe and report?
Why in the name of everything Holy, do you jump out of the Truck, armed and confrontational?
If I chase you until your winded and out of breath, perhaps no longer able to run, what are your options now that you've got a gun in your face?
Then after you've shot the guy, call him a Nigger?
No, this is some racisit B/S and if the colors were reversed you guys would be howling for blood.
Being racist is not, nor should it be illegal. Meanwhile, I’m sure you know the statistics on racially motivated crime and which group is responsible for most of it.
The case must be decided on the facts of the case, not perception of racism.
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Same reason that racist garbage guy killed 5 people injured 50 this week by driving half a mile through people
His twitter said he was going to get some white people and other racist remarks
Pure racism %100
BUT
If you saw how MSM reported it they said he had an accident !
If we do not make this pendulum swing its going to be a mess and take a lot more to swing back to normal
Well now a sixth child has died.
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Being racist and calling some N-word this or that isn’t and should not be a crime. Nor should motivation for a crime change punishment.
Remember Rosenbaum? He’s a “hero” and said, “kill me nigger” about ten times.
You go for my gun, I shoot you, it’s self defense. The deceased could claim self-defense in going for the gun, were he alive; already facing disparity of force
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Calling the deceased the N word shows the state of mind of at least one of the defendants. These guys were a mini lynch mob.
On the right of self defense, I would say if you outnumber someone 3 to 1 then the right of self defense probably should go to the 1.
I have watched the video multiple times and the alleged gun is grab is really not clear nor is it if it did occur visible on the video.
Calling the deceased the N word shows the state of mind of at least one of the defendants. These guys were a mini lynch mob.
On the right of self defense, I would say if you outnumber someone 3 to 1 then the right of self defense probably should go to the 1.
I have watched the video multiple times and the alleged gun is grab is really not clear nor is it if it did occur visible on the video.
I don’t care what he called him. The facts and legality of actions matter. Forum members have called me worse than that here…
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-"Is that the guy who might have stolen some stuff he carried away from that house being built the other day!?"
- "That guy running down the street with nothing in his hands and no backpack or bag? I think so!"
- "Well let's chase him down on this public road while openly carrying guns and force him to stop. If he comes at me, well, that's what buckshot is for..."
😑😑😑💩💀
The shooter at least is guilty of murder IMO.
Jury verdict is in, awaiting its reading.
Travis McMichael guilty of murder, felony murder X4, agg assault X2, false imprisonment, attempted felony. Guilty on all charges. Greg McMichael guilty of all charges except malice murder. Roddie Bryan guilty of felony murder.
Inkslinger
11-24-21, 12:39
Calling the deceased the N word shows the state of mind of at least one of the defendants. These guys were a mini lynch mob.
On the right of self defense, I would say if you outnumber someone 3 to 1 then the right of self defense probably should go to the 1.
I have watched the video multiple times and the alleged gun is grab is really not clear nor is it if it did occur visible on the video.
I’m not sure what videos you’re watching, but he clearly has ahold of the rifle while punching as well.
https://youtu.be/fIve50vSeLQ
Jury verdict is in, awaiting its reading.
Guilty, guilty, guilty, etc. Sounds like the jury pretty much threw the book at them.
If you've chased someone out of your neighborhood, why in the hell are you still chasing?
Doesn't anyone in Georgia have a Cell Phone? Why not call the Police, follow, observe and report?
I haven't watched this trial but from the little I have read it sounds like policing was absent or ineffective. If people are left without help in facing persistent predation is it really surprising if they take matters into their own hands? MO appears to be defund the police, let towns burn or decay, and punish anyone who tries to stop it.
BoringGuy45
11-24-21, 12:56
So, what awaits these guys? Is the needle on the table? Or are they looking at life?
I’m not sure what videos you’re watching, but he clearly has ahold of the rifle while punching as well.
https://youtu.be/fIve50vSeLQ
the video you posted, I think the sound was off. The video I saw led me to believe the first shot was at the front of the truck.
But it doesn't matter, they have been found guilty.
So, what awaits these guys? Is the needle on the table? Or are they looking at life?
Nights of being the comfort station for the Crips and Bloods
In pretty much every state, you can't do a citizen's arrest unless you witness a crime. You certainly can't stop and detain a guy based on suspicion. Even the police have to be able to articulate a good reason why they had reasonable suspicion to stop somebody, and a "black guy in a white neighborhood," hasn't flown as a reason for about 40 years now.
As to Arbery trying to take the gun, I can see both sides of that. If someone tries to take my gun, I have reason to fear that he's going to use it against me. But on the other hand, if I'm Arbery, and three strange guys armed with shotguns jump out of a pickup truck and tell me that they're conducting a citizens arrest, how do I know that they're not going to shoot me if I try to run away? How do I know that, if I cooperate, I'm not going to end up hanging from a tree? What reason do I have to believe that they'll call the police to handle the matter? I'm thinking I may be a dead man unless I resist, so I go for broke and try one last ditch effort to save my own life.
I don't know if I would convict these guys of murder; it's hard to do when the defendants claim self-defense because you need to prove malice. But manslaughter? False imprisonment? Absolutely.
This. [emoji1426][emoji1426][emoji1426]
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In pretty much every state, you can't do a citizen's arrest unless you witness a crime. You certainly can't stop and detain a guy based on suspicion. Even the police have to be able to articulate a good reason why they had reasonable suspicion to stop somebody, and a "black guy in a white neighborhood," hasn't flown as a reason for about 40 years now.
As to Arbery trying to take the gun, I can see both sides of that. If someone tries to take my gun, I have reason to fear that he's going to use it against me. But on the other hand, if I'm Arbery, and three strange guys armed with shotguns jump out of a pickup truck and tell me that they're conducting a citizens arrest, how do I know that they're not going to shoot me if I try to run away? How do I know that, if I cooperate, I'm not going to end up hanging from a tree? What reason do I have to believe that they'll call the police to handle the matter? I'm thinking I may be a dead man unless I resist, so I go for broke and try one last ditch effort to save my own life.
I don't know if I would convict these guys of murder; it's hard to do when the defendants claim self-defense because you need to prove malice. But manslaughter? False imprisonment? Absolutely.
The whole thing summed up in 3 short paragraphs.
Straight Shooter
11-24-21, 13:22
The whole thing summed up in 3 short paragraphs.
Every day, I have to remind myself to be extremely selective in my approach to self defense of myself & others..damned if I want to have to go thru all the shit they and Rittenhouse did.
For the record, I dont blame them a bit for stopping the filthy bastard. He didnt steal nothing because there wasnt much there to steal that I saw. He had no f-in business snooping around other peoples shit anyway.
And going forward, you can be 100% in fear of bodily harm or death and still get convicted by a social justice jury, or one who is afraid of what will happen to them and/or the city they live in if they DONT convict. Rittenhouse had overwhelming evidence of innocence, thats why he walked. If you/I dont have video or eye witness proof, these days it is probably your ass.
SomeOtherGuy
11-24-21, 13:28
I haven't watched this trial but from the little I have read it sounds like policing was absent or ineffective. If people are left without help in facing persistent predation is it really surprising if they take matters into their own hands? MO appears to be defund the police, let towns burn or decay, and punish anyone who tries to stop it.
Yeah pretty much. Note that this incident occurred before Floyd and Floyd riots, and the "Defund the police" movement picked up. Arbery was probably a burglar and the police weren't being effective in dealing with area crime.
This also seems to be a fairly common criminal incident where neither side was really in the right.
Some additional commentary:
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/arbery-trial-judge-delivers-massive-blow-defense-eve-closing-statements
BoringGuy45
11-24-21, 13:31
Not that logic matters to the leftists, but this verdict clearly pokes a huge hole in a lot of arguments that they're trying to use in the Rittenhouse case. If I were to guess, I'm thinking that the left was HOPING these guys got acquitted so that they could point to an epidemic of vigilante killers not being held accountable, proving the need to crack down on self-defense laws. But this is a pesky counterpoint.
The left isn't going to change their minds though; they're still going to try and spin this verdict as somehow not being justice and proving that we need to abolish the system.
Inkslinger
11-24-21, 13:33
the video you posted, I think the sound was off. The video I saw led me to believe the first shot was at the front of the truck.
But it doesn't matter, they have been found guilty.
I only posted it to show there was a clear struggle over a rifle.
BoringGuy45
11-24-21, 13:41
Every day, I have to remind myself to be extremely selective in my approach to self defense of myself & others..damned if I want to have to go thru all the shit they and Rittenhouse did.
For the record, I dont blame them a bit for stopping the filthy bastard. He didnt steal nothing because there wasnt much there to steal that I saw. He had no f-in business snooping around other peoples shit anyway.
And going forward, you can be 100% in fear of bodily harm or death and still get convicted by a social justice jury, or one who is afraid of what will happen to them and/or the city they live in if they DONT convict. Rittenhouse had overwhelming evidence of innocence, thats why he walked. If you/I dont have video or eye witness proof, these days it is probably your ass.
So right then and there, they had no reason to stop him. Citizens can't make an arrest unless they know a crime has been committed. So what if Arbery was thinking about stealing something? He didn't, and so the only crime he committed was a misdemeanor trespass. At that point, their job was observe and report. Even if the policing was ineffective in this town, this was not a situation that should have justified emergency citizen intervention. These guys got what was coming to them and this was NOTHING like the Rittenhouse case!
WickedWillis
11-24-21, 13:48
We got justice for Arbery and Rittenhouse in the same week! What a great damn time to be an American!
Gives me more hope for our justice system honestly.
I only posted it to show there was a clear struggle over a rifle.
I agree that a struggle occurred over the shotgun.
But the question is under the law who has the right to claim self defense. I would say in this case clearly the person that was out numbered 3 to 1.
I really have a problem with 3 guys chasing down someone for almost 5 minutes, when they didn't even have a reasonable suspicion that a crime had been committed that day much less probable cause.
Not the flip side I have seen shop keepers in 3 rd world countries, kill thieves. I had zero issue with it. They caught someone shop lifting and out came the clubs and machetes and that was the end of him.
titsonritz
11-24-21, 14:07
We got justice for Arbery and Rittenhouse in the same week! What a great damn time to be an American!
Gives me more hope for our justice system honestly.
Put the cuffs on Alec Baldwin and there might be some hope.
Not too familiar with the Arbery case because nothing from the media can be trusted. Their agenda is to create hate and division, but it sounds like a legit conviction from what little I've seen.
I haven't watched this trial but from the little I have read it sounds like policing was absent or ineffective. If people are left without help in facing persistent predation is it really surprising if they take matters into their own hands? MO appears to be defund the police, let towns burn or decay, and punish anyone who tries to stop it.
There are at least 3 local agencies over Brunswick, GA plus(I assume) at least a state agency or 2.
You really should read about the overall legal system in the area that Greg McMichael(the dad in the shooting) was part of and how corrupt it has been. This is about covering for one of their cronies which eventually lead to a double murder.
https://www.southernfriedtruecrime.com/70-the-crimes-of-lieutenant-cory-sasser
The Arbery incident seemed to have been getting the sweep under the rug treatment till Bryan released video of the last segment of the chase and shooting which caught the attention of folks who weren't cronies.
Well the three individual were all convicted, and rightfully so. They had no business whatsoever pursuing that man. The concept of "citizens arrest" to me is absurd, laughable, unenforceable, and totally ridiculous.
The concept of "citizens arrest" to me is absurd, laughable, unenforceable, and totally ridiculous.
It really isn't though and none of their actions constituted a citizen's arrest since it didn't kick off by way of the McMichaels witnessing Arbery committing a felony.
You really should read about the overall legal system in the area that Greg McMichael(the dad in the shooting) was part of and how corrupt it has been. This is about covering for one of their cronies which eventually lead to a double murder.
I don't know nearly enough about the case to have an informed opinion. I watched nearly the entire broadcast of the Rittenhouse trial and I don't know if I have the patience or interest to dig into this one in that depth. As I was reading Andrew Branca's commentary on the Rittenhouse trial I also read some of his summary of and commentary (https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/11/arbery-case-trial-based-on-closing-arguments-not-guilty-verdicts-a-real-possibility/) on the closing arguments in this case. I'll quote a section below for reference. Is the "context to what the local neighborhood was going through during that period" given therein accurate? If it is I can see how it could lead to unlawful vigilantism.
The concept of "citizens arrest" to me is absurd, laughable, unenforceable, and totally ridiculous.
In a society where police are abundant, trustworthy, and effective it would seem unnecessary. In one on which police are absent, corrupt, or ineffectual it would seem the only civil recourse; certainly one less violent than this:
Not the flip side I have seen shop keepers in 3 rd world countries, kill thieves. I had zero issue with it. They caught someone shop lifting and out came the clubs and machetes and that was the end of him.
Sheffield put a lot of emphasis on Travis’ Coast Guard experience, which was largely 9 years as a Boarding Officer—this is a position with many LEO-like responsibilities, including arrest, search, officer presence, de-escalation, aggressive response techniques, use of small arms, weapons training, weapons retention, and so forth.
He also did a great job of providing context to what the local neighborhood was going through during that period, and frankly, it was a set of circumstances that’s become all too familiar in many of these high-profile, politically-energized cases.
Here’s the general theme: A community finds itself suddenly awash in crime—generally property crimes of varying degrees, some definitely endangering life. Petty theft of items left unattended, lawnmowers taken from open garages, outright felony burglaries, even home invasions. The police either declined to respond or the response is ineffective.
The community decides they need to do something themselves. They start Neighborhood Watch, they buy guns, they start calling in suspicious activity and license plate numbers to 911. Then there’s a confrontation between a member of the neighborhood and a miscreant, with the miscreant ending up shot dead, usually in circumstances that look overwhelmingly like lawful self-defense.
Nevertheless, and especially if the dead miscreant turns out to be a racial minority or of a political faction favored by the Progressive Left, there’s an immediate hyper-politicization of the event as racist, white supremacist, or otherwise beyond the pale. The neighborhood member, now the defendant in a murder trial, suddenly find their lives destroyed, and face the prospect of the rest of their life in prison—and the only thing that can save them is a fair and impartial jury.
That was the pattern in the George Zimmerman shooting, it was the pattern in the Kyle Rittenhouse shootings, and it is the pattern in the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery.
What had been a charming little community was being ravaged by property crimes and burglaries. Homeowners began installing security cameras all over their homes for the first time. Parents would not allow their children to play outside after dinner, and then not at all.
People began keeping guns accessible and talking with each other in person and in social media about the growing crime problem. They also began to make a lot of calls to 911, but the police response was ineffectual, as the suspicious persons were usually gone by the time the police arrived.
Apparently, one of the criminal predators committing serial property crimes in this neighborhood was one Ahmaud Arbery. He’d been caught repeatedly on surveillance camera, generally in the dark of night, inside a local home under construction from which thousands of dollars of property had been stolen over time—generally in the dark of night. On at least one occasion he’d been frightened into flight by neighbors seeing him lurking in shadows among houses, and having headlights put on him as the neighbors called 911.
Travis McMichael himself had a pistol stolen from his car, and a short time before the Feb. 23 death of Arbery had himself spotted Arbery lurking by the home under construction in the dark, called 911, put his headlights on Arbery, and observed Arbery realizing he’d been spotted and reaching for his waistband as if for a weapon. The 911 recording made contemporaneously with these events was played in court, and you can clearly hear the stress in Travis’ voice.
Sheffield hit on the important legal and evidentiary points. Felony burglary does not require that any property be actually stolen, for example, so all the State’s talk about Arbery not having stolen property in his possession was completely irrelevant. Similarly, there was never any evidence introduced at any time in the trial that Arbery ever recreationally jogged in that neighborhood—not a single family member, friend, or resident of the community testified to anything like that.
Sheffield also spent a great deal of time—important time—on the conditions required for a valid citizen’s arrest—obvious the entire lynchpin of the defense. If the citizen’s arrest was lawful, everything was almost certainly lawful, as well. If the citizen’s arrest was unlawful, however, then likely all the subsequent conduct beings to look a lot like the felonies the State claimed them to be.
I don't know nearly enough about the case to have an informed opinion. I watched nearly the entire broadcast of the Rittenhouse trial and I don't know if I have the patience or interest to dig into this one in that depth. As I was reading Andrew Branca's commentary on the Rittenhouse trial I also read some of his summary of and commentary (https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/11/arbery-case-trial-based-on-closing-arguments-not-guilty-verdicts-a-real-possibility/) on the closing arguments in this case. I'll quote a section below for reference. Is the "context to what the local neighborhood was going through during that period" given therein accurate? If it is I can see how it could lead to unlawful vigilantism.
In a society where police are abundant, trustworthy, and effective it would seem unnecessary. In one on which police are absent, corrupt, or ineffectual it would seem the only civil recourse; certainly one less violent than this:
It is true that a burglary in GA doesn't require theft, but it does require intent to commit theft or a felony. The McMichaels didn't see Arbery commit a burglary or other felony. Short of witnessing Arbery commit something like a murder there, the McMichaels didn't have knowledge of who was authorized to be on the property.
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-7/article-1/16-7-1/
"(a) A person commits the offense of burglary when, without authority and with the intent to commit a felony or theft therein"
Never seen any mention Arbery stealing anything when checking out English's house and at least one of the other videos claims to show Arbery jogging away.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/videos-ahmaud-arbery-roaming-vacant-home-shown-jury-81115960
Does the fact that he went into a home that wasn’t his, without consent, matter here?
Everybody wants to paint him as a victim, but he sounds the opposite. Who the hell goes to others’ property, be it an under construction home or not, “to look for a drink of water”.
Nothing good comes from committing crime, no matter how petty you believe it to be.
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Its does seem it was thief met ultra redneck gonna get me some types or 1 idiot meets 3 idiots first idiot looses his life 3 idiots go go jail for life or maybe go to death row for killing 1st idiot all idiots get what they get coming 4 less idiots away from public a good thing ?
Not sure I did not follow it to much but does that seem correct to others that did watch it more ?
Unless I am thinking of some other stuff I watched but the one guy was going in stealing from construction sites if this is the same one ? So much idiocy that truly have idiots and idiots these days hard to keep track
In many states (maybe all) there is a difference between a home currently being lived in and houses/buildings under construction.
Does the fact that he went into a home that wasn’t his, without consent, matter here?
Everybody wants to paint him as a victim, but he sounds the opposite. Who the hell goes to others’ property, be it an under construction home or not, “to look for a drink of water”.
Nothing good comes from committing crime, no matter how petty you believe it to be.
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While it is not my thing, loads of people go in homes under construction with the sole purpose of checking out the process with no intent to steal or vandalize.
The McMichaels had no legal authority to determine who could, or could not, be on English's property.
GA trespassing law seems surprisingly weak.
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-7/article-2/part-1/16-7-21
Its does seem it was thief met ultra redneck gonna get me some types or 1 idiot meets 3 idiots first idiot looses his life 3 idiots go go jail for life or maybe go to death row for killing 1st idiot all idiots get what they get coming 4 less idiots away from public a good thing ?
Not sure I did not follow it to much but does that seem correct to others that did watch it more ?
Unless I am thinking of some other stuff I watched but the one guy was going in stealing from construction sites if this is the same one ? So much idiocy that truly have idiots and idiots these days hard to keep track
Nothing I have seen indicates the McMichaels witnessed Arbery commit a felony and it really doesn't appear Arbery committed any violation of GA law(at least violating their versions of burglary or trespass) that day.
While it is not my thing, loads of people go in homes under construction with the sole purpose of checking out the process with no intent to steal or vandalize.
The McMichaels had no legal authority to determine who could, or could not, be on English's property.
GA trespassing law seems surprisingly weak.
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-7/article-2/part-1/16-7-21
In Az, absent something else going on, if you get caught walking through a construction zone you're walking away with a ticket, if anything at all.
BoringGuy45
11-24-21, 19:57
Does the fact that he went into a home that wasn’t his, without consent, matter here?
Everybody wants to paint him as a victim, but he sounds the opposite. Who the hell goes to others’ property, be it an under construction home or not, “to look for a drink of water”.
Nothing good comes from committing crime, no matter how petty you believe it to be.
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Does any of this behavior by Arbery justify three men chasing him around the neighborhood, then confronting him with shotguns?
IMHO they got what the law called for and had no business trying to play po-po. Sure, Arbery probably wouldn't have had much done to him legally by the "system" but these idiots "went there" and shouldn't have. Having said that, Arbery wasn't out jogging (he was wearing jeans) and I have no doubt he was up to no good. His "jogging" didn't start until these yahoos tried a modern-day roundup on the streets of this neighborhood. This and the Rittenhouse case are worlds apart.
Nothing I have seen indicates the McMichaels witnessed Arbery commit a felony and it really doesn't appear Arbery committed any violation of GA law(at least violating their versions of burglary or trespass) that day.
Thanks did not know that
Thought they had video of him going through sites before and stealing ? Like they were trying to finally get the thief ? And why they were their ? I thought I saw/read that ?
NOW the problem is could have been faked from the other side and making it seem that way ? which could be the case ? Sadly so many on either side you cant trust the facts to be facts but to be slanted angle propaganda ! Both sides anymore are not to be trusted sadly :) takes way to much to dig out the truth
Still seems like bad stuff from dumb people meeting dumb people though ! sadly again could be wrong but still kinda think dumb met dumber
But all we have to do is look at the road rage idiocy today to see stupid meets stupid and its so common anymore !
Call the police this is their job to deal with it is my view :) and to the Police ! Hats off to you folks cause MAN can not imagine how much stupid you see daily :)
IMHO they got what the law called for and had no business trying to play po-po. Sure, Arbery probably wouldn't have had much done to him legally by the "system" but these idiots "went there" and shouldn't have. Having said that, Arbery wasn't out jogging (he was wearing jeans) and I have no doubt he was up to no good. His "jogging" didn't start until these yahoos tried a modern-day roundup on the streets of this neighborhood. This and the Rittenhouse case are worlds apart.
He was wearing cargo shorts.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6888621-2020-6001183-0001.html
Does any of this behavior by Arbery justify three men chasing him around the neighborhood, then confronting him with shotguns?
If it were my house, yes!
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titsonritz
11-24-21, 20:32
This and the Rittenhouse case are worlds apart.
Exactly, the only thing they have in common is the MSM media and willfully ignorant want/try to make it about race.
I don't understand this at all. The ruling party in the US told us just last week that our system of laws was put in place to protect white vigilantes who hunt down and murder brown folks.
Andy
mic drop !
I don't understand this at all. The ruling party in the US told us just last week that our system of laws was put in place to protect white vigilantes who hunt down and murder brown folks.
Andy
Inkslinger
11-24-21, 20:49
I don't understand this at all. The ruling party in the US told us just last week that our system of laws was put in place to protect white vigilantes who hunt down and murder brown folks.
Andy
11 white people convicting 3 white people of killing a black person sure doesn’t help the race baiters argument. Maybe Robin Di Angelo will chime in and say the only reason the jury came to this decision was to not let people know that they actually are racist….
He was wearing cargo shorts.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6888621-2020-6001183-0001.html
Still not "jogging" attire. Seriously though, thanks for the clarification. For some reason I thought it was jeans.
He was murdered without any "crime" witnessed by the perps. Facts are facts. My suspicions, especially given his criminal past, remain unchanged.
To wit: Arbery pleaded guilty to charges he carried a gun onto a high school campus in 2013, a year after he graduated. Rodney Ellis, police chief for the Glynn County school system, testified at Wednesday’s hearing that Arbery tried to evade officers on foot and stopped only when two of them pointed guns at him. He was also arrested in 2017 on charges that he tried to steal a TV from a Walmart store. Court records show he pleaded guilty to shoplifting. Arbery was on probation at the time of his death.
Still not "jogging" attire. Seriously though, thanks for the clarification. For some reason I thought it was jeans.
He was murdered without any "crime" witnessed by the perps. Facts are facts. My suspicions, especially given his criminal past, remain unchanged.
To wit: Arbery pleaded guilty to charges he carried a gun onto a high school campus in 2013, a year after he graduated. Rodney Ellis, police chief for the Glynn County school system, testified at Wednesday’s hearing that Arbery tried to evade officers on foot and stopped only when two of them pointed guns at him. He was also arrested in 2017 on charges that he tried to steal a TV from a Walmart store. Court records show he pleaded guilty to shoplifting. Arbery was on probation at the time of his death.
I have jogged while dressed in exactly the same style and seen others jogging while dressed the same as well.
Probably give Arbery a neutral on carrying a firearm where illegal since Greg McMichael spent years presumably packing a pistol where he was not authorized to do so.
https://www.wabe.org/gregory-mcmichael-deficient-in-training-hours-multiple-times-as-investigator/
He could have probably got his boss to get him a free pass on shoplifting considering all the other responsibility blocking she did for him including the shooting incident.
I have jogged while dressed in exactly the same style and seen others jogging while dressed the same as well.
Probably give Arbery a neutral on carrying a firearm where illegal since Greg McMichael spent years presumably packing a pistol where he was not authorized to do so.
https://www.wabe.org/gregory-mcmichael-deficient-in-training-hours-multiple-times-as-investigator/
He could have probably got his boss to get him a free pass on shoplifting considering all the other responsibility blocking she did for him including the shooting incident.
Whatever. I'm sure someone somewhere has jogged in a three-piece suit. He was not on one of society's list of "those to look up to". I said it before and I'll say it again: the dirtbags got what they deserved under the law. The victim, while not deserving of what happened to him, is FAR from pure as the driven snow. If that is your point spare me.
Whatever. I'm sure someone somewhere has jogged in a three-piece suit. He was not on one of society's list of "those to look up to". I said it before and I'll say it again: the dirtbags got what they deserved under the law. The victim, while not deserving of what happened to him, is FAR from pure as the driven snow. If that is your point spare me.
No and I pointed out in the original incident thread here that they may have done the world a favor.
I was also pointing out there is a decent chance at least one McMichael might have had a criminal record long before now were it not for his official connections negating consequences for his actions.
SomeOtherGuy
11-24-21, 23:15
11 white people convicting 3 white people of killing a black person sure doesn’t help the race baiters argument.
I'm starting to think that some of these juries might actually be following instructions and trying to fairly decide cases according to the law and facts.
Totally opposite what the MSM has been screaming at us for decades now on any and all issues, of course.
Just read this summary - holy cow what a cluster* of an investigation and prosecution process.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Shooting_of_Ahmaud_Arbery
Meh, the Deliverance family got what they deserved. I still say the whole chase got started with "Get off'n yer Maw boy, and grab yer pants. We gonna go get us a n*****!"
Choir boy or not, Arbery wasn't doing anything worth their chasing him around the neighborhood with guns, let alone killing the dude.
Maybe Maw can get the OK to provide both with conjugals in the joint.
While it is not my thing, loads of people go in homes under construction with the sole purpose of checking out the process with no intent to steal or vandalize.
The McMichaels had no legal authority to determine who could, or could not, be on English's property.
GA trespassing law seems surprisingly weak.
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-7/article-2/part-1/16-7-21
That must be a geographic thing. Around here people don’t go onto others property, especially under construction homes. My father learned early on, anybody snooping around new constructions was looking to steal tools.
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That must be a geographic thing. Around here people don’t go onto others property, especially under construction homes. My father learned early on, anybody snooping around new constructions was looking to steal tools.
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Legal or not, I am not going to enter someone's property without their permission.
That must be a geographic thing. Around here people don’t go onto others property, especially under construction homes. My father learned early on, anybody snooping around new constructions was looking to steal tools.
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It may be to some extent, but based on reading comments from this case there seem to be more areas where it is considered ok than not.
In all honesty it is somewhat bizarre based on my observations of people who think nothing of entering a structure under construction, but support jail time(or deep down would support killing someone on the spot) for cutting across an open field of someone else no matter what which is part of my surprise on the hoop jumping GA trespass law requires.
I haven't watched this trial but from the little I have read it sounds like policing was absent or ineffective. If people are left without help in facing persistent predation is it really surprising if they take matters into their own hands? MO appears to be defund the police, let towns burn or decay, and punish anyone who tries to stop it.
The points you make here are my primary issue with condemning the three guys who did the chasing. Coupled with the fact the they'd personally witnessed the deceased committing similar crimes previously and called the police previously, to no avail.
I completely agree that at least one of the four should have been calling the police, I completely agree that the three neighbors should have observed and reported instead of exiting the vehicle with guns a pointing, but I cannot agree with letting known criminals run rampant when the police can't, won't, or don't do anything about it. Were these guys a trio of racist vigilantes/lynchers, or were they three neighbors who were tired of the police standing by doing nothing while their neighborhood was continually plundered?
Lots of mistakes on both sides here, but the left and their propagandists are clearly setting up these kinds of confrontations and then sensationalizing the results, and I suspect we will see many more in the coming months and years. Everyone here has the sense to not get into this kind of trouble, but were are all thinking with the frame of reference that we were raised with here in America. Law and order. Right and wrong. No need for vigilantism because we have a trustworthy effective police force that will do their job to the best of their ability. Those pillars are crumbling. Society is morphing into something the we are not familiar with. The rules are changing.
The points you make here are my primary issue with condemning the three guys who did the chasing. Coupled with the fact the they'd personally witnessed the deceased committing similar crimes previously and called the police previously, to no avail.
I completely agree that at least one of the four should have been calling the police, I completely agree that the three neighbors should have observed and reported instead of exiting the vehicle with guns a pointing, but I cannot agree with letting known criminals run rampant when the police can't, won't, or don't do anything about it. Were these guys a trio of racist vigilantes/lynchers, or were they three neighbors who were tired of the police standing by doing nothing while their neighborhood was continually plundered?
Lots of mistakes on both sides here, but the left and their propagandists are clearly setting up these kinds of confrontations and then sensationalizing the results, and I suspect we will see many more in the coming months and years. Everyone here has the sense to not get into this kind of trouble, but were are all thinking with the frame of reference that we were raised with here in America. Law and order. Right and wrong. No need for vigilantism because we have a trustworthy effective police force that will do their job to the best of their ability. Those pillars are crumbling. Society is morphing into something the we are not familiar with. The rules are changing.
The catches are, they not only did not see Arbery commit a felony(necessary for the citizens arrest to kick in) on the day they chased and shot him, they didn't even see him commit so much as a misdemeanor.
From everything I have read, the only thing that he had been seen doing(and/or recorded on video doing) was entering houses under construction and looking around which doesn't count as a felony or misdemeanor under GA law.
And on top of the legality issues, from a practical angle, none of the trio had any knowledge of who the owner wanted on the property in the first place.
You might want to read up on the police and legal system in that area as a whole since honesty, integrity, and any other positive description doesn't seem to apply and the elder McMichael was a part of and beneficiary of that corruption.
Abery did what most of us have done, see a house under construction and went inside to look at how it is laid out.
Not a crime
Abery did what most of us have done, see a house under construction and went inside to look at how it is laid out.
Not a crime
It is a crime here. I wouldn’t say “most” of us have done so.
How do you know he went in to see the layout?
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Got curious spent a few minutes
They did have video of him in the home ! And it was at night ? Sounds like he had been trespassing other times to ? Something about another time ? Did not spend to much time researching
But that is no reason to be killed ! NO WAY
Those that have gone in a home under construction I really wonder how many of you went in when it was dark at night ? IMHO that is sadly stupid and asking to be suspect of trespassing at least and just something ya should not do especially at night
So to be clear NO WAY does going in a construction zone even at night deserve to be murdered Especially when its not your home and your life was not in danger etc... so bubba dudes get whats coming
I do agree these other dudes were redneck idiots that were the gonna get me some mentality and no way did the guy deserve to be shot
Burglary tends to be a structure and many homes under construction would fall into that (did some quick looking)
ANY construction zone can be trespassed if marked
This day and age WHY ANYONE would go into a house without permission AT NIGHT is beyond me and suspect because of the night thing ?
But bottom line redneck dudes killed a guy that did nothing to them and had no right to attack and got found guilty ! System worked this time quite well
How many folks were shot and killed in Chicago over last say week ? Month ? year? with no convictions no care NOTHING maybe we need to start a ALL CRIMES MATTER or ALL MURDERS MATTER campaign
I thought their defense was he shot him when he grabbed the shotgun, NOT for trespassing/stealing.
However, then pointing the gun at him was a crime in the first place.
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Averageman
11-25-21, 14:56
Abery did what most of us have done, see a house under construction and went inside to look at how it is laid out.
Not a crime
I'm with you, however there are some oddities here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3MbwbVxlxo
Lots of mistakes on both sides here, but the left and their propagandists are clearly setting up these kinds of confrontations and then sensationalizing the results, and I suspect we will see many more in the coming months and years. Everyone here has the sense to not get into this kind of trouble, but were are all thinking with the frame of reference that we were raised with here in America. Law and order. Right and wrong. No need for vigilantism because we have a trustworthy effective police force that will do their job to the best of their ability. Those pillars are crumbling. Society is morphing into something the we are not familiar with. The rules are changing.
This is exactly what I was trying to convey.
Except Arbery didn't commit tresspass or burglary in the state of Georgia.
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-7/article-2/part-1/16-7-21
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2014/title-16/chapter-7/article-1/section-16-7-1
Averageman
11-25-21, 16:16
Except Arbery didn't commit tresspass or burglary in the state of Georgia.
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-7/article-2/part-1/16-7-21
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2014/title-16/chapter-7/article-1/section-16-7-1
Watch the video I posted.
Watch the video I posted.
So when did the McMichaels witness Arbery committing a crime?
Averageman
11-25-21, 18:12
So when did the McMichaels witness Arbery committing a crime?
In the discussion there was some talk about a LE talking to these guys about a recent rash of burglaries. Did the Cop give a name or a basic description of the crimminal?
The bottom line is you have to see a felony take place
joedirt199
11-26-21, 07:04
We have problems with people stealing out of homes under construction. Tools, wiring, appliances, building materials, etc are all open for thieving. Most happen at night but we have had people steal ladders from roofers while they were still on the roof. Had dumbies steal copper pipe on the hot side of the water heater and got sprayed with hot water. Neighbors generally see more than the police do in the way of suspicious behavior. When meth was really bad in our area, contractors would pay a worker to sleep in the house they were building to protect their stuff. Nothing like getting your tool trailer stolen and having to replace the whole thing and its contents. Very hard to catch and identify the suspects. Then you have to convince the prosecutor and judge to give a high enough bond warrant to keep them there for court when you do catch one.
It is a crime here. I wouldn’t say “most” of us have done so.
How do you know he went in to see the layout?
I don't know why he went into the house.
Of course neither did the racist father and son duo.
I view what these two mouth breathing scum bags did as a modern day lynching.
Even if the black kid was a thief, and was looking for stuff to steal later, which of course we will never know. Under GA law he was not engaged in criminal activity.
So these idiots had no right to chase him, no right to ask him even one question, and for sure no right to shoot the kid.
Justice has been served.
Yoni summed it up nicely.
I don't know why he went into the house.
Of course neither did the racist father and son duo.
I view what these two mouth breathing scum bags did as a modern day lynching.
Even if the black kid was a thief, and was looking for stuff to steal later, which of course we will never know. Under GA law he was not engaged in criminal activity.
So these idiots had no right to chase him, no right to ask him even one question, and for sure no right to shoot the kid.
Justice has been served.
Yeah you don’t know…
From what it appears, four scum bags met.
And around here, you wander into a new construction, you’ll likely get shot and you’ll likely deserve it. As was said before, only one reason people are going in those buildings, especially at night.
And no, you don’t know if he was engaged in criminal activity or not.
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Yeah you don’t know…
From what it appears, four scum bags met.
And around here, you wander into a new construction, you’ll likely get shot and you’ll likely deserve it. As was said before, only one reason people are going in those buildings, especially at night.
And no, you don’t know if he was engaged in criminal activity or not.
As to why he went into the house, I don't know and neither does anyone else.
As far as criminal activity sorry I do know and so should you.
No evidence was presented at trial that he was committing a felony, which is what is needed for a civilian to try and get involved. We als know no evidence was presented as to his committing a misdemeanor.
As to why he went into the house, I don't know and neither does anyone else.
As far as criminal activity sorry I do know and so should you.
No evidence was presented at trial that he was committing a felony, which is what is needed for a civilian to try and get involved. We als know no evidence was presented as to his committing a misdemeanor.
But you don’t know if he entered to commit a crime. He may have been planning a crime (which is a crime). Nobody knows. There was no way to know. So don’t pretend like you do.
At the end of the day, one dirt bag taking a dirt nap. Three more behind bars.
But you don’t know if he entered to commit a crime. He may have been planning a crime (which is a crime). Nobody knows. There was no way to know. So don’t pretend like you do.
At the end of the day, one dirt bag taking a dirt nap. Three more behind bars.
Was not admissible in court, but a nice kid just out for a jog was highly unlikely if past behavior patterns were any indication, and they usually are... But, chasing after someone in that manner and armed when no actual crime was committed (other than trespassing), and not witnessing a crime happening, is a bad idea all around, and in their case, ended badly for all involved. I think they wanted to scare him, maybe rough him up some, put fear of God into him not to come back to their street etc, and he decided to go on the offensive once cornered, and it went sideways in an instant:
"The most crucial insight his criminal records show is that he 'used running or jogging as a cover to commit crimes.'
The defendants’ attorney Robert Rubin pointed out that Arbery was even known as the “jogger” due to his pattern of dashing into convenience stores, stealing, and running away. In addition to this, Arbery was on probation for two crimes.
The first crime was due to carrying a handgun onto school property. The other crime was for fleeing police. His criminal records also show two separate police encounters in which Arbery threatened and cursed at officers."
https://www.conservativebusinessjournal.com/2021/11/ahmaud-arberys-extensive-criminal-record-blocked-by-judge/
Arbery's actions did not equal trespassing in the state of GA.
Even if Arbery had engaged in actions that constituted trespass in GA, the trio had no way of knowing(at least what we know of their relationship with the property owner) trespass had occurred.
Going on the assumption that most people here are private citizens who are armed with no special connections. Considering the loads of people that portray &/or believe an armed private citizen is somehow evidence of wrong doing, the assumption of guilt sans evidence concept seems like at least an odd one at best.
BoringGuy45
11-26-21, 17:03
But you don’t know if he entered to commit a crime. He may have been planning a crime (which is a crime). Nobody knows. There was no way to know. So don’t pretend like you do.
At the end of the day, one dirt bag taking a dirt nap. Three more behind bars.
Arbery may have been a small time crook, but he didn't deserve death. I'm not going to venerate him, George Floyd, or anyone like them. But I don't think we should get the point where, just because he wasn't an upstanding citizen, that our reaction to his death is "good riddance."
BoringGuy45
11-26-21, 17:03
But you don’t know if he entered to commit a crime. He may have been planning a crime (which is a crime). Nobody knows. There was no way to know. So don’t pretend like you do.
At the end of the day, one dirt bag taking a dirt nap. Three more behind bars.
Arbery may have been a small time crook, but he didn't deserve death. I'm not going to venerate him, George Floyd, or anyone like them. But I don't think we should get the point where, just because he wasn't an upstanding citizen, that our reaction to his death is "good riddance."
Arbery may have been a small time crook, but he didn't deserve death. I'm not going to venerate him, George Floyd, or anyone like them. But I don't think we should get the point where, just because he wasn't an upstanding citizen, that our reaction to his death is "good riddance."
Live by the sword, die by the sword….I don’t feel sorry for them. And in the case of Floyd, he died of a drug OD in reality, and after his history, it’s a shame it took so long.
He died because he grabbed a gun, not because he was wandering around.
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Was not admissible in court, but a nice kid just out for a jog was highly unlikely if past behavior patterns were any indication, and they usually are... But, chasing after someone in that manner and armed when no actual crime was committed (other than trespassing), and not witnessing a crime happening, is a bad idea all around, and in their case, ended badly for all involved. I think they wanted to scare him, maybe rough him up some, put fear of God into him not to come back to their street etc, and he decided to go on the offensive once cornered, and it went sideways in an instant:
"The most crucial insight his criminal records show is that he 'used running or jogging as a cover to commit crimes.'
The defendants’ attorney Robert Rubin pointed out that Arbery was even known as the “jogger” due to his pattern of dashing into convenience stores, stealing, and running away. In addition to this, Arbery was on probation for two crimes.
The first crime was due to carrying a handgun onto school property. The other crime was for fleeing police. His criminal records also show two separate police encounters in which Arbery threatened and cursed at officers."
https://www.conservativebusinessjournal.com/2021/11/ahmaud-arberys-extensive-criminal-record-blocked-by-judge/
That’s pretty consistent with what I had previously read. Thanks for sharing.
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Arbery may have been a small time crook, but he didn't deserve death. I'm not going to venerate him, George Floyd, or anyone like them. But I don't think we should get the point where, just because he wasn't an upstanding citizen, that our reaction to his death is "good riddance."
He wasn't killed because they thought he might not be an upstanding citizen. He wasn't killed for innocently walking around a construction site after dark. He was killed because he went for the man's gun. Let's not forget that fact. We can argue whether or not the 3 men should have been there with a gun in the first place for days.
Are we as a society to stand by and let criminals have their way? When the police can't, won't, or simply don't do their job, and these kind of people are running rampant, unfettered, even to the point of getting local criminal nick names (The Jogger), would you stand by and do nothing? We all say, "Let the authorities handle it." But what do we do when they don't?
Though the two cases are worlds apart and share little similarity, I do see at least one commonality between these guys and Kyle: Both were where they were, armed, and doing what they were doing because the police would not, could not, or did not put a stop to criminals repeatedly committing crimes. America, she is a changin'...
BoringGuy45
11-27-21, 07:36
He wasn't killed because they thought he might not be an upstanding citizen. He wasn't killed for innocently walking around a construction site after dark. He was killed because he went for the man's gun. Let's not forget that fact. We can argue whether or not the 3 men should have been there with a gun in the first place for days.
Are we as a society to stand by and let criminals have their way? When the police can't, won't, or simply don't do their job, and these kind of people are running rampant, unfettered, even to the point of getting local criminal nick names (The Jogger), would you stand by and do nothing? We all say, "Let the authorities handle it." But what do we do when they don't?
Though the two cases are worlds apart and share little similarity, I do see at least one commonality between these guys and Kyle: Both were where they were, armed, and doing what they were doing because the police would not, could not, or did not put a stop to criminals repeatedly committing crimes. America, she is a changin'...
I don't think this case had anything to do with the police not doing their job. That town wasn't in the midst of a riot or run by a bunch leftists who let criminals run wild. In fact, if you remember, this case happened BEFORE the George Floyd case, and so the whole defund the police thing hadn't even started yet.
This case had everything to do with three overzealous rednecks deciding that stopping this small time thief was as urgent to public safety as stopping a serial killer. There are times when citizens have to step up, and there are times when we should defer to the police. This was the latter.
I don't know why he went into the house.
Of course neither did the racist father and son duo.
I view what these two mouth breathing scum bags did as a modern day lynching.
Even if the black kid was a thief, and was looking for stuff to steal later, which of course we will never know. Under GA law he was not engaged in criminal activity.
So these idiots had no right to chase him, no right to ask him even one question, and for sure no right to shoot the kid.
Justice has been served.Most Georgians see it this way.
Criminal "jogger" or not, the pickup truck guys represent a mindset that has largely vanished thankfully.
All you have to do is look in the so-called law enforcement history in that county and you see all the problems. And yet a couple of counties over it's fine.
What's with all the talk of night time? Video and pics of the chase/shooting show this happened in broad daylight.
Averageman
11-27-21, 11:18
Most Georgians see it this way.
Criminal "jogger" or not, the pickup truck guys represent a mindset that has largely vanished thankfully.
All you have to do is look in the so-called law enforcement history in that county and you see all the problems. And yet a couple of counties over it's fine.
What bothers me, has anyone ever looked for the Cop that gave these guys the BOLO for a Black Jogger?
He wasn't killed because they thought he might not be an upstanding citizen. He wasn't killed for innocently walking around a construction site after dark. He was killed because he went for the man's gun. Let's not forget that fact. We can argue whether or not the 3 men should have been there with a gun in the first place for days.
But that's the crux of their entire defense no? Did they have the legal Right under GA law to give chase or not? If not, there entire case falls apart, and did. I'm assuming the criteria for citizens arrest was just too thin for the jury to buy it. Far as I can ascertain, it all hinged on whether they could legally attempt to give chase and "arrest" him, and whether murder or self defense due to Arbery going for the gun hinges on that aspect of the event. This is where I get hung up and feel is the crux of the entire case. The third decided to let the grand jury decide if charges should happen:
April 3: A second prosecutor recuses after finding no reason to charge the McMichaels
George Barnhill, one of the prosecutors who first handled the case, defended the actions of the McMichaels and Bryan, who recorded a video of the shooting. In a letter recusing himself, addressed to a Glynn County police captain, Barnhill said the three had "solid first hand probable cause" to pursue Arbery, a "burglary suspect," and stop him. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported that the letter was issued April 3.
"It appears their intent was to stop and hold this criminal suspect until law enforcement arrived," he wrote.
Barnhill, who said he watched the video, said Travis McMichael "was allowed to use deadly force to protect himself" under state law because Arbery had initiated the fight and grabbed the shotgun."
So, what changed there? It seems to me that aspect, really all important aspect between what was legally self defense or not, was very thin defense based on GA law as i understand it, and the jury apparently didn't buy it either.
If they had, no one can deny that Arbery went for the gun, and was shot. Do I think the DA's brushed over how terribly thin their defense was because they were good old boys known locally etc and Arbery a known felon and black kid? Yes I do.
Do I think had it been a different set of players in that mix, a prosecutor would have been much more likely to look deeper int the legality what they did and pass it on to the grand Jury to decide? Yes I do.
Some times bad karma collides in a perfect storm and the outcome for all involved is ugly.
WickedWillis
11-29-21, 14:36
Exactly, the only thing they have in common is the MSM media and willfully ignorant want/try to make it about race.
I mean, they did use the Nword after he was down, so.....
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/white-man-accused-killing-ahmaud-arbery-allegedly-used-racial-slur-n1224696
https://www.thedailybeast.com/travis-mcmichael-called-ahmaud-arbery-the-n-word-as-he-lay-dying-on-the-ground-witness-told-detective
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-shooting-georgia-slur/white-defendant-used-racial-slur-after-shooting-ahmaud-arbery-investigator-testifies-idUSKBN23B2H4
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/crime/ahmaud-arbery/attorney-wants-to-ban-alleged-use-of-racial-slur-killer-used-after-ahmaud-arbery-slaying/77-e318df56-31cb-46c3-bab1-fc874e104e29
What's with all the talk of night time? Video and pics of the chase/shooting show this happened in broad daylight.
on the house construction camera he had been seen there at night prior to the event
I mean, they did use the Nword after he was down, so.....
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/white-man-accused-killing-ahmaud-arbery-allegedly-used-racial-slur-n1224696
https://www.thedailybeast.com/travis-mcmichael-called-ahmaud-arbery-the-n-word-as-he-lay-dying-on-the-ground-witness-told-detective
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-shooting-georgia-slur/white-defendant-used-racial-slur-after-shooting-ahmaud-arbery-investigator-testifies-idUSKBN23B2H4
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/crime/ahmaud-arbery/attorney-wants-to-ban-alleged-use-of-racial-slur-killer-used-after-ahmaud-arbery-slaying/77-e318df56-31cb-46c3-bab1-fc874e104e29
So?
I heard a rap song the other day where it was used. Perhaps it was used as a term of endearment.
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eightmillimeter
11-29-21, 18:42
No matter how you slice it there is no way to justify any of that.
There was literally 100 forks in their road that didn’t lead to prison.
They chose, poorly.
WickedWillis
11-29-21, 22:14
So?
I heard a rap song the other day where it was used. Perhaps it was used as a term of endearment.
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All your other posts in this thread make so much more sense now lol
Alp your other posts in this thread make so much more sense now lol
At least they make sense. None of yours seem to.
But, I guess in your world using a slang word that I’d “off limits” is equivalent to murder. Good job, son.
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WickedWillis
11-29-21, 22:31
At least they make sense. None of yours seem to.
But, I guess in your world using a slang word that I’d “off limits” is equivalent to murder. Good job, son.
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Well I mean they did call him that, after they murdered him in cold blood, which has now garnered them each a murder charge. Definitely not race related at all, babe.
Well I mean they did call him that, after they murdered him in cold blood, which has now garnered them each a murder charge. Definitely not race related at all, babe.
Cold blood? After he grabbed the gun.
No, it was four idiots that made a bunch of stupid decisions. Stupid is as stupid does.
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WickedWillis
11-29-21, 22:55
Cold blood? After he grabbed the gun.
No, it was four idiots that made a bunch of stupid decisions. Stupid is as stupid does.
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I'm sure you'd lay down and take it like a bitch if some dudes held you at gunpoint illegally and you feared for your life. Imagine thinking your only option for survival is grabbing one of the guns a Fudd has trained on you. Yikes.
I'm sure you'd lay down and take it like a bitch if some dudes held you at gunpoint illegally and you feared for your life. Imagine thinking your only option for survival is grabbing one of the guns a Fudd has trained on you. Yikes.
Or how about use some common ****ing sense and quit acting like a child. Would they have shot him if he hasn’t grabbed the shotgun? Or would they have chased him if he wasn’t a thief? There were lots of forks in the road to get off this path. Both sides chose the wrong one each step of the way.
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No matter how you slice it there is no way to justify any of that.
There was literally 100 forks in their road that didn’t lead to prison.
They chose, poorly.
I have to agree. There was a lot of bad judgement exercised. If you focus only on the time at which the three men made contact with Arbery, you have to ask yourself if at that point in time the application of deadly force was warranted.
on the house construction camera he had been seen there at night prior to the event
Several times too. What wasn't seen on the videos though?
Several times too. What wasn't seen on the videos though?
And if this was an ongoing problem, what information was provided to the police?
So?
I heard a rap song the other day where it was used. Perhaps it was used as a term of endearment.
Really?
I am in the camp of the N word should be used by nobody.
But do you really see no harm in white guys standing over the black body of their victim of murder using the N word?
Really?
I am in the camp of the N word should be used by nobody.
But do you really see no harm in white guys standing over the black body of their victim of murder using the N word?
It’s a word. It doesn’t determine if they are murderers or not. But I guess you’d have all users of the word sentences to death?
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It’s a word. It doesn’t determine if they are murderers or not. But I guess you’d have all users of the word sentences to death?
Are you really this tone deaf, or just playing at it.
You have 3 white guys, illegally chasing a black kid.
Then a conflict ensues and in fear for his life the black kid engages in the flight part of fight/flight response since running away didn't work. If the dead guy was white and the suspects were black, I think you would be singing a different tune.
Later today when I go for my ruck, I will be armed and if 3 guys regardless of race start chasing me. I will run only long enough to chose my place to make my stand.
Are you really this tone deaf, or just playing at it.
You have 3 white guys, illegally chasing a black kid.
Then a conflict ensues and in fear for his life the black kid engages in the flight part of fight/flight response since running away didn't work. If the dead guy was white and the suspects were black, I think you would be singing a different tune.
Later today when I go for my ruck, I will be armed and if 3 guys regardless of race start chasing me. I will run only long enough to chose my place to make my stand.
You see, some people are smart enough to look at facts. You’re not one of them.
He wasn’t a “kid”, but I see the English language isn’t your strong suit. They didn’t “randomly” go after chasing some kid, they went after a known criminal that was working the neighborhood several nights in a row AFTER talking with the local police.
As I said before, the case of four bad guys back bad decisions, including your “kid”. They each made several bad decisions that lead to the incident.
When you’re running later, nobody will likely bother you if you’re not out stealing. But with your logic, the OJ trial was the right outcome.
It’s funny, people here talk about standing up and taking care of their neighborhoods when police won’t. People talk about standing up to those that are like Antifa and BLM tearing neighborhoods apart. When people do stand up, you change your tune.
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You see, some people are smart enough to look at facts. You’re not one of them.
He wasn’t a “kid”, but I see the English language isn’t your strong suit. They didn’t “randomly” go after chasing some kid, they went after a known criminal that was working the neighborhood several nights in a row AFTER talking with the local police.
As I said before, the case of four bad guys back bad decisions, including your “kid”. They each made several bad decisions that lead to the incident.
When you’re running later, nobody will likely bother you if you’re not out stealing. But with your logic, the OJ trial was the right outcome.
It’s funny, people here talk about standing up and taking care of their neighborhoods when police won’t. People talk about standing up to those that are like Antifa and BLM tearing neighborhoods apart. When people do stand up, you change your tune.
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That is a very disingenuous statement.
WickedWillis
11-30-21, 11:38
You see, some people are smart enough to look at facts. You’re not one of them.
He wasn’t a “kid”, but I see the English language isn’t your strong suit. They didn’t “randomly” go after chasing some kid, they went after a known criminal that was working the neighborhood several nights in a row AFTER talking with the local police.
As I said before, the case of four bad guys back bad decisions, including your “kid”. They each made several bad decisions that lead to the incident.
When you’re running later, nobody will likely bother you if you’re not out stealing. But with your logic, the OJ trial was the right outcome.
It’s funny, people here talk about standing up and taking care of their neighborhoods when police won’t. People talk about standing up to those that are like Antifa and BLM tearing neighborhoods apart. When people do stand up, you change your tune.
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We get it, no black people are allowed to jog through your trailer park without consequence.
eightmillimeter
11-30-21, 12:17
There is no proof he “grabbed” the shotgun, full stop. It’s not on the video, the injury pattern doesn’t match, and people need to stop using this as quasi justification for these racist liars, because that’s what they are.
We get it, no black people are allowed to jog through your trailer park without consequence.
Are you intentionally distorting the facts?
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That is a very disingenuous statement.
No, it isn’t.
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WickedWillis
11-30-21, 12:37
Are you intentionally distorting the facts?
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Just realize that to everyone else in this thread, you look like a racist quiver-lip who's upset that some fudds are getting convicted for shooting a black guy they hunted through their neighborhood. That's the vibe you're throwing out there.
Just realize that to everyone else in this thread, you look like a racist quiver-lip who's upset that some fudds are getting convicted for shooting a black guy they hunted through their neighborhood. That's the vibe you're throwing out there.
You must not be able to read, can you? You know, where I said they were wrong?
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