View Full Version : USMC's "Lateral Entry" concept
The USMC was first in the US military with the whole digital camo thing, and they decided to get rid of their tank units. Not sure how this "cutting edge" initiative would work out, though:
"The idea for lateral entry, laid out in Marine Corps Commandant Gen. David Berger’s new Talent Management 2030 document, could see those “exceptionally talented Americans” forgo entry level training and join the Marine Corps as lieutenant colonels or gunnery sergeants."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/gunnery-sergeants-never-went-boot-164554862.html
IIRC that will primarily apply to IT/tech folks, right? i.e. you ain't gonna walk in off the street, with 4 or 5 carbine classes under your belt, and daily pilates/cardio/weight workouts, and be commissioned or appointed a Staff Sergeant or Gunny.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-01-21, 18:44
WTF
So an admission that your personnel development sucks, or is it that technology changes so fast you need to bring in outside help, but isn’t that what contractors are for? Isn’t that about the level that a lot of people get out- as in 40-50 years old?
I guess “Immaculate Commission” didn’t test well?
Diamondback
12-01-21, 18:50
Is this gonna be like Project Managers and their bullshit in the corporate world?
I think (quite a while after I was in, see sigline) that the Army had a "Stripes for Skills" program. For instance, for 30+ years I've been working as a credentialed Respiratory Therapist and Sleep Tech (RRT and RPSGT respectively). Back then someone with my credentials could join the Army as an E-5 and go through some kind of Basic Training, skip AIT as you were already credentialed/trained, and report to your permanent party unit as a Sergeant E-5. This new USMC proposal HAS to include some fashion of a boot camp, right? Right? Please tell me it ain't so.
Here's the actual document. Interesting that 75% of USMC first-termers separate. Looks like they're trying for a more mature force.
https://www.hqmc.marines.mil/Portals/142/Users/183/35/4535/Talent%20Management%202030_November%202021.pdf?ver=E88HXGUdUQoiB-edNPKOaA%3D%3D
I note that it contains the obligatory "diversity and inclusion" phrasing.
just a scout
12-01-21, 19:06
I think (quite a while after I was in, see sigline) that the Army had a "Stripes for Skills" program. For instance, for 30+ years I've been working as a credentialed Respiratory Therapist and Sleep Tech (RRT and RPSGT respectively). Back then someone with my credentials could join the Army as an E-5 and go through some kind of Basic Training, skip AIT as you were already credentialed/trained, and report to your permanent party unit as a Sergeant E-5. This new USMC proposal HAS to include some fashion of a boot camp, right? Right? Please tell me it ain't so.
The articles I’ve seen say it’s something like they put the band members through.
Here’s how you wear a uniform,
These are the ranks, this is who you call “sir”.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
BoringGuy45
12-01-21, 19:31
Isn't this what warrant officers are for?
Business_Casual
12-01-21, 19:54
Is this gonna be like Project Managers and their bullshit in the corporate world?
LOL, hire McKenzie to send in a bunch of 25-year olds to completely F up your company.
There is precedent. The Navy, the AF have done similar. There are strict parameters and hard gates: cyber Marine can't cross deck to infantry.
I don't know enough to decide if I think it's a good idea or a bad idea.
A lot of the ideas to retain manpower have real merit.
During my USAF tenure, the only instance that I heard of this being done was (as mentioned above) band members. Of course, this predated the cyber era.
The Navy reserve did it with corpsmen, called it Advanced Pay Grade, come in an E4 or E5, boot was a 2-week school. They recruited paramedics, RTs, radiology techs...
The Navy still does this with certain staff corps specialties: JAG, nurses, chaplain, docs.
I'd imagine they'd still get an indoc school. I guess the question is, for these MOSs, what is the purpose of boot?
Diamondback
12-01-21, 20:35
The Navy reserve did it with corpsmen, called it Advanced Pay Grade, come in an E4 or E5, boot was a 2-week school. They recruited paramedics, RTs, radiology techs...
The Navy still does this with certain staff corps specialties: JAG, nurses, chaplain, docs.
I'd imagine they'd still get an indoc school. I guess the question is, for these MOSs, what is the purpose of boot?
I'd suspect in their case Boot is part of the indoctrination/cultural assimilation process--"break the recruit down as an individual and rebuild him into what the service needs him to be."
The Navy reserve did it with corpsmen, called it Advanced Pay Grade, come in an E4 or E5, boot was a 2-week school. They recruited paramedics, RTs, radiology techs...
The Navy still does this with certain staff corps specialties: JAG, nurses, chaplain, docs.
I'd imagine they'd still get an indoc school. I guess the question is, for these MOSs, what is the purpose of boot?
Some freaking "right of passage" perhaps? May end up being minimal, but jeez....
Some Soldier/Marine/Airman/Sailor should have a sense of "passing" some sort of tribulation to be there. Otherwise make it a GS position if remedial or remotely tough training isn't part of the process.
The Navy reserve did it with corpsmen, called it Advanced Pay Grade, come in an E4 or E5, boot was a 2-week school. They recruited paramedics, RTs, radiology techs...
The Navy still does this with certain staff corps specialties: JAG, nurses, chaplain, docs.
I'd imagine they'd still get an indoc school. I guess the question is, for these MOSs, what is the purpose of boot?
They did away with it for enlisted a few years ago. That's how the SeaBees were founded and now they're paying a price for ending the APG program. Previously it was called NPSAC, non prior service ascension program. E-3 thru E-6 but I only knew on one who came in as an E-6. He spent 20 years as an E-6, made CPO and retired!
They still have the programs for staff officers and they go to DCO school, direct commission officer, which does culminate in a two week knife and fork school. As you said medical, dental, supply, chaplains, and CEC corps.
Let's not forget the Marine reservists used to not have to go to boot; almost none of the reservists in Korea had boot camp. They did alright upholding the finest traditions. So if we're (royal 'we', not us here) having the discussion, we may need to slay some sacred cows.
Again, not sure I have an opinion one way or the other right now.
Diamondback
12-01-21, 20:47
I'd suspect it goes back to "you're good, but can you do what you do in COMBAT?" If memory serves, there were cases of field hospitals like MASH units coming under fire in Korea, so a certain degree of that thinking may still be there along with the "rite of passage" and "break down to rebuild in our image" factors.
ThirdWatcher
12-02-21, 01:37
Isn't this what warrant officers are for?
That was my first thought.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-02-21, 01:47
It seems that there is some kind of joke revolving around eating crayons that could be made?
The Navy reserve did it with corpsmen, called it Advanced Pay Grade, come in an E4 or E5, boot was a 2-week school. They recruited paramedics, RTs, radiology techs...
The Navy still does this with certain staff corps specialties: JAG, nurses, chaplain, docs.
I'd imagine they'd still get an indoc school. I guess the question is, for these MOSs, what is the purpose of boot?
Common experience that permits the wearing of the uniform. Even if the boot isn't exactly the same. Much of the focus will be how to properly wear the uniform.
ThirdWatcher
12-02-21, 07:37
If every Marine is a rifleman, they better damn well learn how to use a rifle, same as any other boot.
My main issue is... over the last 20 years we have seen many many examples of non combat personnel being thrust into frontline combat. During my second tour in Iraq the guy in my FOB with the most kills was one of the cooks. We were all out on a big mission to capture/kill a HVT. The local shitheads saw all the helicopters leaving and decided now was the time to raid the FOB. The cook was put on gate duty because we all left and got some good trigger time in.
So being a specialty IT pseudo Marine guy is all cool until Charlie gets in the wire.
On the other hand, if these are going to be strictly State side jobs, why do they need to have the uniform?
Averageman
12-02-21, 07:59
The thing about working in an organization that calls itself "Elite" and has a set of stringent rules and regulations is that, that is certainly not the "Norm" in our Country.
In order to work in such and organization and uphold the standards of such an organization and not be seen as an outsider/intruder in such an organization, you need to adapt, sacrifice and enter such an organization as a hopeless, helpless peon of little value who developes in time, training and results. to become one with the organization.
In other words, you can't walk in off the street and take charge because your are seen as a piece of worthless shit until you prove yourself.
That is what truely makes an Elte Organization, well, Elite.
Averageman
12-02-21, 07:59
The thing about working in an organization that calls itself "Elite" and has a set of stringent rules and regulations is that, that is certainly not the "Norm" in our Country.
In order to work in such and organization and uphold the standards of such an organization and not be seen as an outsider/intruder in such an organization, you need to adapt, sacrifice and enter such an organization as a hopeless, helpless peon of little value who developes in time, training and results. to become one with the organization.
In other words, you can't walk in off the street and take charge because your are seen as a piece of worthless shit until you prove yourself.
That is what truely makes an Elte Organization, well, Elite.
If every Marine is a rifleman, they better damn well learn how to use a rifle, same as any other boot.
Are the band people and vocalists riflemen?
My main issue is... over the last 20 years we have seen many many examples of non combat personnel being thrust into frontline combat. During my second tour in Iraq the guy in my FOB with the most kills was one of the cooks. We were all out on a big mission to capture/kill a HVT. The local shitheads saw all the helicopters leaving and decided now was the time to raid the FOB. The cook was put on gate duty because we all left and got some good trigger time in.
So being a specialty IT pseudo Marine guy is all cool until Charlie gets in the wire.
On the other hand, if these are going to be strictly State side jobs, why do they need to have the uniform?
These cyber guys work in a basement in Hawaii. Or San Diego or DC. The closest they get to the wire is watching grunts take off on a float. Cooks, yeah, because they are deployed. Cyber don't deploy.
I've reached out to a buddy, he's a Lt Col in the Marines, CO of a joint service cyber unit in Hawaii. He grew up traditional, infantry, recon, lat into intelligence. He'll have a good, measured opinion.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-02-21, 08:40
Are the band people and vocalists riflemen?
They go through boot camp and MCT the same as any other non 03xx MOS. The "every Marine a rifleman" is BS, but the fact of the matter is that plenty of non infantry Marines have medals with "v" on them too. If you are going to wear the uniform that others had to sweat and bleed for, then you should earn it all the same.
These cyber guys work in a basement in Hawaii. Or San Diego or DC. The closest they get to the wire is watching grunts take off on a float. Cooks, yeah, because they are deployed. Cyber don't deploy.
Then why do they need to have a uniform?
They go through boot camp and MCT the same as any other non 03xx MOS. The "every Marine a rifleman" is BS, but the fact of the matter is that plenty of non infantry Marines have medals with "v" on them too. If you are going to wear the uniform that others had to sweat and bleed for, then you should earn it all the same.
Up to division, yes. The "President's Own" go through an indoc, not boot or MCT. Some of those lower band musician have indeed stood out in combat.
Plenty of Marines have earned BS/SS who haven't gone to boot, so again, (royal 'we') need to find best bang for the buck.
I'd also like to know why these Hi-Tech, Super Specialists can't be civil service or contracted as questioned previously.
Then why do they need to have a uniform?
They've been through boot. But given that it's worked for at least two other branches, a question is why should it not work for the Corps?
The question isn't what happens now, but what can happen? Is the Corps (or any branch) making best use of assets and manpower? How does the Corps stop attrition at the first-enlistment level to retain? Why are these guys getting out?
Maybe a middle ground: boot, no MCT, fast-track rank (ie, pay), technical advancement without leadership billets or mandatory pause for recruiting/drill school.
As a former serviceman (served 95% of time in FMF), whose grandmother and father were in the Corps, and an interested taxpayer, I have a vested interest in wanting the right people in the right jobs. If you've been around the Corps more than 2 minutes you've seen someone get screwed over because of manpower or policy issues.
My understanding is that these would be sworn members of the US military, subject to the UCMJ and all other regulations.
Are the band people and vocalists riflemen?
I worked with a guy was had been USMC, and he had a horrible time with pistol or rifle quals. I finally told him during a rifle qual, if every Marine was a rifleman, what the hell was he shooting so poorly for. He happily replied, he played basketball the entire time he was in the Marines. I talked to him later, and he was serious that he had played sports for most of his enlistment. Great guy, great in hand to hand fighting, but good lord he sucked with a rifle.
My understanding is that these would be sworn members of the US military, subject to the UCMJ and all other regulations.
If they take the oath of enlistment, and run a modified boot camp, I don't see the issue. Everyone isn't a combat troop, even in the USMC. I would rather have my com systems up and running than have some imbecile who barely passed screwing up my gear. Same thing with IT. At a certain point, it can't always be civilians maintaining equipment, especially when we deploy.
While the idea is outside the box, I can see strong appeal and benefit to each branch of the service. Its not like Doctors, Dentists, or several other fields go through the same training as grunts, to me, there isn't much of a difference. Everyone will know these guys are hard core battle beasts, and I doubt any of them would pretend they were.
The articles I’ve seen say it’s something like they put the band members through.
Here’s how you wear a uniform,
These are the ranks, this is who you call “sir”.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
This wasn't the case when I went in, in 06, I band members had to do boot camp.
I'm not sure I like the idea of just dropping people in to the Marines, as a POG, I knew that my job was to support the guys on the ground and that boot camp and MCT gave me a glimpse of what the guy on the ground had to deal with, and the standard that had to be maintained.
This wasn't the case when I went in, in 06, I band members had to do boot camp.
I'm not sure I like the idea of just dropping people in to the Marines, as a POG, I knew that my job was to support the guys on the ground and that boot camp and MCT gave me a glimpse of what the guy on the ground had to deal with, and the standard that had to be maintained.
Bands/musicians higher than division do not do boot. The have a nice, M-F indoc.
I do not necessarily disagree. My question to you is: how do we recruit and more importantly retain these types of people who will get out and walk into $150k jobs?
I think what all of us dinosaurs need to warm up to, irrespective of the Marines specifically, is that this ain't our pappy's military, and some skills and jobs will require a paradigm shift with regard to recruiting and retention.
Bands/musicians higher than division do not do boot. The have a nice, M-F indoc.
I do not necessarily disagree. My question to you is: how do we recruit and more importantly retain these types of people who will get out and walk into $150k jobs?
I think what all of us dinosaurs need to warm up to, irrespective of the Marines specifically, is that this ain't our pappy's military, and some skills and jobs will require a paradigm shift with regard to recruiting and retention.
"how do we recruit and more importantly retain these types of people who will get out and walk into $150k jobs?"
So I think that we need to talk about incentives and utilization of people within the organization. I didn't join the Marines to work in Aircraft Maintenance and Operations, however, now that I am out ( and I only did a little over 4 years) I am making good money in Maintenance and Operations of a different sort. I honestly wanted to stay in, but wasn't offered anything more than were I was, in a soon to be non-deployable squadron. At the same time, every good CPL who picked up SGT in 3 to 3.5 years was pulled into recruiting duty. It would be one thing to have certain recruiters be former Active Duty Marines, while gutting the working knowledge base as well as loosing all incentives to go try and progress somewhere else.
"how do we recruit and more importantly retain these types of people who will get out and walk into $150k jobs?"
So I think that we need to talk about incentives and utilization of people within the organization. I didn't join the Marines to work in Aircraft Maintenance and Operations, however, now that I am out ( and I only did a little over 4 years) I am making good money in Maintenance and Operations of a different sort. I honestly wanted to stay in, but wasn't offered anything more than were I was, in a soon to be non-deployable squadron. At the same time, every good CPL who picked up SGT in 3 to 3.5 years was pulled into recruiting duty. It would be one thing to have certain recruiters be former Active Duty Marines, while gutting the working knowledge base as well as loosing all incentives to go try and progress somewhere else.
That's good perspective, and I agree. A lot of Marines don't want to be recruiters or drill instructors. Don't make them. The ones that do and thrive, let them be, and leave them there.
My dad retired at almost 21 years. He was on the list for master gunnery sgt, but it would have resulted in an unaccompanied tour, so he he got out. If after 20 years you have so little control over your own career, imagine the powerlessness of a young E4 at the end of their first enlistment. In the Navy we knew that to a certain point we had some power, and the detailers knew it.
But these cyber Marines, these high-tech guys, they have to find a different way, or these guys will walk.
But these cyber Marines, these high-tech guys, they have to find a different way, or these guys will walk.
Again I just go back to incentives, I would say that you would just modify the contracts to specify that these guys go through boot camp, go through MCT, go through the myriad of schools, but after 12 years or so are pushed forward with other agencies, DOD, State, with the knowledge that they will be making a good 6 figures, I think would be the better way to go. Maybe you give them full retirement at 12-14 years, vs 20-24. I would just say that the standard for being a Marine shouldn't be watered down. That the physical fitness and mindset of a person supporting the guy on the ground shouldn't change, and if it does change that will be more detrimental overall to the Marine Corps, than the benefit of having said personnel.
Again I just go back to incentives, I would say that you would just modify the contracts to specify that these guys go through boot camp, go through MCT, go through the myriad of schools, but after 12 years or so are pushed forward with other agencies, DOD, State, with the knowledge that they will be making a good 6 figures, I think would be the better way to go. Maybe you give them full retirement at 12-14 years, vs 20-24. I would just say that the standard for being a Marine shouldn't be watered down. That the physical fitness and mindset of a person supporting the guy on the ground shouldn't change, and if it does change that will be more detrimental overall to the Marine Corps, than the benefit of having said personnel.
I would submit that standards are different, not watered down; but I acknowledge it is a semantics game. The standards are different now: yeah, the bi-annual PFT is the same, but FSSG (or whatever they are called now) do not have the same standards as infantry/arty, nor should they. Throw in what naval personnel have to do, too (talk about different standards).
Interesting thought about retirement. That's thinking outside the box.
At the end of the day I enjoy these discussions. Helps this old FAG (former action guy) stretch his mental muscle.
As I said earlier, make them DoD civilian positions. Same train-up if they deploy as, say Army Corps of Engineers civvies had when going to A-Stan or Iraq. Basically weapons fam, area/threat briefs, and ROE.
just a scout
12-02-21, 17:29
As I said earlier, make them DoD civilian positions. Same train-up if they deploy as, say Army Corps of Engineers civvies had when going to A-Stan or Iraq. Basically weapons fam, area/threat briefs, and ROE.
No. You can’t. Makes too much sense.
Bet some general will be making bank or something on this. Or just some staff guy getting his stars.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
No. You can’t. Makes too much sense.
Bet some general will be making bank or something on this. Or just some staff guy getting his stars.
LOL
A friend of mine is a Corps of Engineers civilian (GS-11). His specialty is building hospital/health care facilities. Now, he was prior service back in the 80's like me but he said it didn't matter. He took a TDY stint twice, once to Iraq and one to Trashcanistan. A year each time IIRC. Just prior to each one he had to go to El Paso (I think it was Ft. Bliss) for a week. Like I mentioned above, weapons familiarization (which he said neither time did they use live ammo, it was all done with a simulator), area/threat briefs, complete physical, and equipment issue. No PT of any sort, no hazing/harassment.
I think this concept has merit, but the devil is in the details. We are in a world where our potential adversaries are not shy about compelling their best and brightest in to the military, but in the US people with commensurate skills end up in the private sector. Even in SOCOM there is an acknowledgment that tech savvy people will be just as important as bearded snake eaters in future ops. And I think anyone who has served has seen plenty of examples of head scratching talent management—I knew a dude in the Air Force that spoke fluent Chinese and they sent him to school to become a Russian linguist.
I’m not sure I like the idea of an off the street, civilian to Lt Col officer, but I do think it’s probably not the right idea to keep recruiting and training the same way we did in the ‘60s.
Too bad we don't have some sort of filter to block dickheads like Snowden from getting access.
Coal Dragger
12-02-21, 22:54
Our recruiting and promotion system is broken and produces failure.
The USMC is particularly guilty of this problem where promotions are concerned. I love my Corps but I have zero regrets getting out. For the most part morons are in charge due to what is rewarded. You can be dumb as a box of rocks, but if you can run fast and shoot strait on a KD range you get promoted. There were lots of NCO’s for example that as far as I could tell were functionally almost retarded who were in charge of other Marines… but hey they had awesome PFT scores! Then they just become box checkers for their next promotion to take their toxic mongoloid level IQ and leadership “skills” to the next level. They’re dumb as shit, and can’t do much of anything very well but there they are in charge nonetheless.
Officers were largely just as bad, and most of the good ones got out after their initial obligation.
A quick look at serious shooting wars like WWII and the various services very quickly figured out what draftees were skilled in various fields and promoted them fast. Meanwhile getting dumb dumbs out of the smart guy’s way. Particularly in areas like logistics there’s no substitute for actual experience, the private sector has it and the US military sucks a bag of dicks in comparison.
I don’t pretend to know what the solution is, but the current method results in failure at too many levels. We’re recruiting the wrong people, and promoting the wrong people while letting the right people either never get in, or get fed up and leave.
With a 75% attrition rate for first-termers, the USMC must benefit from being a relatively small force with no shortage of recruits.
Our recruiting and promotion system is broken and produces failure.
The USMC is particularly guilty of this problem where promotions are concerned. I love my Corps but I have zero regrets getting out. For the most part morons are in charge due to what is rewarded. You can be dumb as a box of rocks, but if you can run fast and shoot strait on a KD range you get promoted. There were lots of NCO’s for example that as far as I could tell were functionally almost retarded who were in charge of other Marines… but hey they had awesome PFT scores! Then they just become box checkers for their next promotion to take their toxic mongoloid level IQ and leadership “skills” to the next level. They’re dumb as shit, and can’t do much of anything very well but there they are in charge nonetheless.
Officers were largely just as bad, and most of the good ones got out after their initial obligation.
Sadly, that's not just a problem in the Corps. Minus the requirement to actually be able to shoot straight on a KD range, the same can be said about the Army. I know a lot of absolutely stupid guys that made E-5 or 6 because they could run fast or pick up heavy stuff. I'll never forget listening to a guy on the phone with his wife, looking at his credit card saying "I don't know what the number for the card is, there are a lot of numbers on it." He's an E-6, last I had heard.
Averageman
12-03-21, 08:33
I was parked on the "Highway of Death" in Kuwait City for like 2-2 1/2 weeks. You could walk for 1/4 mile in three directions, just stepping from body to body.
After we were there about four days a large group of Soldiers showed up and started taking away the bodies. I asked them who they were and where they were from...
Surprise, Surprise, the Division Band became Graves Registration. I asked them about a particular body which was in a civilian car with the Windows blown out,
The driver had his seat belt on and the gasses from the body inflated him until you could no longer see the lap belt and the chest belt was three inches in to the body. I asked, what their plans for that one were, I suggested five gallons of gas and burn him until you could move him safely, "Oh No!" replied the Young Sergeant "That would be desecrating a body."
I said "So your going to undo his seatbelt and pull him out?" "Oh Yes!" so I said, "Well I'm going to leave now, can you give me a headstart?"
I got about five steps away when they cut the seatbelt. I heard a Fart Like noise and then the sound of water, that guy came out of that car like an explosion and then like a milk shake, he farted then folded over and oozed out.
I gave up any ambitions to play in the Second Armor Division Band.
But if you come in on some fast track enlistment, God Bless you, because the Military always gets its pound of flesh.
I was parked on the "Highway of Death" in Kuwait City for like 2-2 1/2 weeks. You could walk for 1/4 mile in three directions, just stepping from body to body.
After we were there about four days a large group of Soldiers showed up and started taking away the bodies. I asked them who they were and where they were from...
Surprise, Surprise, the Division Band became Graves Registration. I asked them about a particular body which was in a civilian car with the Windows blown out,
The driver had his seat belt on and the gasses from the body inflated him until you could no longer see the lap belt and the chest belt was three inches in to the body. I asked, what their plans for that one were, I suggested five gallons of gas and burn him until you could move him safely, "Oh No!" replied the Young Sergeant "That would be desecrating a body."
I said "So your going to undo his seatbelt and pull him out?" "Oh Yes!" so I said, "Well I'm going to leave now, can you give me a headstart?"
I got about five steps away when they cut the seatbelt. I heard a Fart Like noise and then the sound of water, that guy came out of that car like an explosion and then like a milk shake, he farted then folded over and oozed out.
I gave up any ambitions to play in the Second Armor Division Band.
But if you come in on some fast track enlistment, God Bless you, because the Military always gets its pound of flesh.
Oh, the military will get its' pound of flash regardless, but any 'special enlistment' programs tend to exact a bit more... like any used car salesman, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is (look at the fine print).
I joined under a special program and it came at a cost. I joined as an E4, went to boot but was exempt from corps school, with contract to E5 and FMSS after I finished 6 months of correspondence courses in 2 months. If you could not do it, you revert to E2 and lost contract for FMSS. Boot RDCs did not care for people coming in at a higher rank and I got extra special attention, and no one cared that you had to do all the academic work, so I was burning the midnight oil to get it all done. Then there are all the sideways glances when you are an E5 with almost no experience, and they have to find ways to get a slot for you at NCO school.
As I understand from army counterparts in 18X, they had similar experiences.
Lawnchair 04
12-03-21, 08:58
With a 75% attrition rate for first-termers, the USMC must benefit from being a relatively small force with no shortage of recruits.
No, we absolutely abuse marines on recruiting duty to meet those numbers.
No, we absolutely abuse marines on recruiting duty to meet those numbers.
I have had several friends that ended up as recruiters and while I know that they work hard, very hard in fact, the Marine Corps is the one branch that constantly has people pushing to join over others per their size.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/11/02/the-corps-is-finding-new-marines-despite-recruiting-challenges/
Lawnchair 04
12-03-21, 14:00
Marine corps times is not a publication I would rely on for real news, I can only tell you from serving on recruiting duty that I’ve seen and experienced what they are willing to put marines through in order to make mission. I would get a face tattoo and EAS before ever doing it again. Granted everyone’s experience on that duty is different.
I have had several friends that ended up as recruiters and while I know that they work hard, very hard in fact, the Marine Corps is the one branch that constantly has people pushing to join over others per their size.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/11/02/the-corps-is-finding-new-marines-despite-recruiting-challenges/
Well before me my dad did a couple tours as a recruiter. In fact, it's how met my mom. He loved it; but then, he was a people person. Me, I'd die a thousand deaths. I have friends who were recruiters, hated it. That is always been an Achilles heel for the Marines, that point in your career where you have to choose to go to recruiting duty or the drill field. I guess you can throw reserve I&I in there too.
Averageman
12-03-21, 14:07
Marine corps times is not a publication I would rely on for real news, I can only tell you from serving on recruiting duty that I’ve seen and experienced what they are willing to put marines through in order to make mission. I would get a face tattoo and EAS before ever doing it again. Granted everyone’s experience on that duty is different.
Army, not Marine recruiting. You're spot on. They eat their own, then blame them for not making numbers.
They pulled me out of my job two weeks after reporting back from Desert Storm, worst experiance of my life. I was wild, pretty F'ed in the head and it was the worst thing ever for me. Funny I was turned down from Drill duty for my ASI.
Marine corps times is not a publication I would rely on for real news, I can only tell you from serving on recruiting duty that I’ve seen and experienced what they are willing to put marines through in order to make mission. I would get a face tattoo and EAS before ever doing it again. Granted everyone’s experience on that duty is different.
I would agree with you, even I was waivered through, and I am sure that you had to make mission just like everywhere else. How would you feel then about letting people in and bypass boot camp, MCT or SOI and going into a tech job with the title of Marine?
Also, as a side note, as a former Recruiter, I can't actually believe anything you say/s/ ;)
Lawnchair 04
12-03-21, 16:28
I would agree with you, even I was waivered through, and I am sure that you had to make mission just like everywhere else. How would you feel then about letting people in and bypass boot camp, MCT or SOI and going into a tech job with the title of Marine?
Also, as a side note, as a former Recruiter, I can't actually believe anything you say/s/ ;)
I wouldn’t be happy about people circumventing entry level training at all honestly, boot camp was much more than just a physical endeavor. It has a unique way of putting a wide cross section of people all on the same page. Very useful training even if your primary mos is not physically demanding.
In hindsight one of the factors that crushed me as a recruiter was my inability to lie to kids. I just couldn’t do it.
In hindsight one of the factors that crushed me as a recruiter was my inability to lie to kids. I just couldn’t do it.
Jesus, where were you when I was getting out of high school.
That is another great point, "I wouldn’t be happy about people circumventing entry level training at all honestly, boot camp was much more than just a physical endeavor. It has a unique way of putting a wide cross section of people all on the same page." I think that continuing that mentality or or cohesion is very much a key.
Agree with much of what has been said here.
Truly capable and talented Marines usually get out, and the reasoning is almost always the same: policy or promotion issues.
I'm a former grunt who left active duty, then deployed again as a reservist, and finally got all the way out. While I'll spare everyone my judgements of my own performance, it is an objective fact that I was promoted ahead of peers, and in a good position to be promoted. Unfortunately, when you return from deployment in a reserve battalion, it doesn't matter how good you are, you are back of the line for pretty much every institutional resource. While I understand why this makes sense, it also guarantees that someone like me who can walk almost certainly will, as I am not interested in jerking off in the woods for 3 years before I get more than the bare minimum of training opportunity again.
Since leaving I have finished a graduate degree in cyber. The speed at which the threat landscape changes in cyber warfare would leave a slow-footed large organization like big military practically useless, especially in a personnel system where the most talented in a given community leave after their initial 5 or even 6 year stint for far greener economic pasture.
I am 1775% behind any effort to reform the recruiting and retention mindset of 1942. If they have deemed that they want these personnel in a uniform for purposes of UCMJ or Geneva convention compliance as opposed to being contract personnel, they are simply going to have to shift some outdated mindsets on policy, promotion, and training. Full stop. A future-proofed (or at least resistant) small unit force is likely going to need embedded personnel in the field to conduct small range full spectrum cyber attack/defense. If the USMC wants cyber capable SNCOs or WOs integrated at the battalion level or even lower, they're going to need flexibility recruiting and retaining people with the brains to do it. And as the Corps does some doctrinal pivots to begin to imagine what a near peer engagement, i.e. China, would look like, they're going to want to have that sort of capability. My .02.
They go through boot camp and MCT the same as any other non 03xx MOS. The "every Marine a rifleman" is BS, but the fact of the matter is that plenty of non infantry Marines have medals with "v" on them too. If you are going to wear the uniform that others had to sweat and bleed for, then you should earn it all the same.
Nah, the 'every Marine a rifleman' is spot on, if you look at what 03's actually spend 95% of their time doing (cleaning, more cleaning, mowing dirt patches, additional cleaning, finally getting to touch weapons, for the exclusive purpose of cleaning them, more field day... you get the point).
To me, the answer is the 'technical Corporal' concept of letting people with unique specialties get more pay and rank, plus indirectly sidestep a lot of the dumber leadership requirements as a means of retention.
I'd have actually entertained the concept of staying in and pushing towards career length if I didn't end my first enlistment as a Sergeant with only an option of becoming a staff NCO and no longer getting to do any of the tactical SIGINT nonsense that I enjoyed. If there was a parallel rank ascension option where I could finish a couple of degrees in parallel with supplementary schooling (all while collecting foreign language pay and maintaining that proficiency), there's a world in which I don't spend the last three months in taking every CLEP in the catalog and finishing a PhD fully funded by the VA... but this is an organization that only a few people could tell who the best technical operators were across what is basically a single regiment across the planet, let alone promote/enhance/train for those skills.
Bringing them on through reservist track and generating some sort of pay structure to accommodate that would make sense expanding the warrant officer pool to carry the raw personnel requirements would actually be quite adequate, so the requisite mindset shift can happen without having to fundamentally change the back end. It would save cost/time/headache to still send them through some level of basic training - if you honestly know that you're coming out of that in some condition other than a wet behind the ears PFC, it's a different experience and makes plenty of sense.
Diamondback
12-05-21, 11:36
If memory serves, in WWII the Army had "Technician" ranks that brought increased pay and bennies without the leadership authority. More than once IIRC there was a Tech subordinate to a Sarge who was a stripe or two below him...
Tec 5 was equivalent to a Corporal but without NCO authority, T/3 was equivalent to a Staff Sgt and the next rank up from T/3 was merging into the NCO's at Tech Sarge.
Or we could bring back the 1950s Specialist system where it fully paralleled from E4 to E9, again without NCO authority... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialist_(rank) then use Warrants for above Spec-9.
Doesn't look all that bad (although this is a World War II Army rank):
https://i.imgur.com/HIaDB2al.png
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-05-21, 23:37
I'm curious, how many super-knowledgeable and experienced techies are clamoring to join the Marine Corps and are only being stopped by the idea of Boot Camp and a being lower enlisted?
I'm curious, how many super-knowledgeable and experienced techies are clamoring to join the Marine Corps and are only being stopped by the idea of Boot Camp and a being lower enlisted?
I suspect very few are looking to take their cyber/tech certs or degrees and go join the Marines or other branches. Certainly not when places like Amazon, Facebook's group of companies, and other large scale tech are paying a ton of money and bonuses to entry level nerds to join them. 100k+ per year out of school, working Monday through Friday (or some doing 4 day work weeks with options to work from home), with amble promotion opportunities or the chance to be headhunted by another company in a few years for more money. Or join any military branch, go through boot, advanced training, then go somewhere wonderful like 29 Palms, Ft. Hood, Fairchild, etc as the current system is set up.
I can see those who don't have the fiscal means of going to college without the GI Bill making that choice, then leaving with a few certs, going to college, then into a job with money and benefits the military will never reach. They might hang a branch sticker in their cubical or office, and that's it. No up or out, being forced out of the job they love into leadership positions to get a promotion or pay bump. The USAF for instance is hemorrhaging pilots because of policies like Up or Out. Guys who just want to fly are doing their 10 years and going to the airlines of cargo to make more money, better pay, better hours, less BS. Something like the old tech ranks would be a start.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-06-21, 05:03
I suspect very few are looking to take their cyber/tech certs or degrees and go join the Marines or other branches. Certainly not when places like Amazon, Facebook's group of companies, and other large scale tech are paying a ton of money and bonuses to entry level nerds to join them. 100k+ per year out of school, working Monday through Friday (or some doing 4 day work weeks with options to work from home), with amble promotion opportunities or the chance to be headhunted by another company in a few years for more money. Or join any military branch, go through boot, advanced training, then go somewhere wonderful like 29 Palms, Ft. Hood, Fairchild, etc as the current system is set up.
I can see those who don't have the fiscal means of going to college without the GI Bill making that choice, then leaving with a few certs, going to college, then into a job with money and benefits the military will never reach. They might hang a branch sticker in their cubical or office, and that's it. No up or out, being forced out of the job they love into leadership positions to get a promotion or pay bump. The USAF for instance is hemorrhaging pilots because of policies like Up or Out. Guys who just want to fly are doing their 10 years and going to the airlines of cargo to make more money, better pay, better hours, less BS. Something like the old tech ranks would be a start.
Agreed. I think investing in your current force, finding Marines with talent and sending them to actual schools, fixing morale and quality of life, fixing leadership, etc is a far better strategy to recruiting and retaining excellent Marines than just letting them skip bootcamp.
Averageman
12-06-21, 05:16
Agreed. I think investing in your current force, finding Marines with talent and sending them to actual schools, fixing morale and quality of life, fixing leadership, etc is a far better strategy to recruiting and retaining excellent Marines than just letting them skip bootcamp.
I'm just saying things may not be like you remembered.
Back in the early 1980's, I worked with a Warrant Officer who was very good. If you wanted to know something about the vehicle he was the guy you went to. Bad transmission, he would split the power pack, take the tranny apart and fix it, reassemble the power pack. Now he would usually have four to six enlisted guys working with him, everyone walked away a little smarter.
Mmmm, they don't do that anymore, not only that but they wont correct lower enlisted at all. They also don't want to expand upon the knowledge they have, they don't want to show any lower enlisted anything that might help them gain knowledge.
As a Civillian embedded in that Unit, I couldn't believe it.
So bringing someone in from the outside to take responcability for what's going on in the inside is not always a good idea. It's usually counterproductive to what you seek to achieve.
dwhitehorne
12-06-21, 07:04
I'm just saying things may not be like you remembered.
Mmmm, they don't do that anymore, not only that but they wont correct lower enlisted at all. They also don't want to expand upon the knowledge they have, they don't want to show any lower enlisted anything that might help them gain knowledge.
That's a shame. Pushing leadership at the lowest ranks was one of the main things the Corps had going for it over the other branches. Sad to hear the "all about me" is infecting everything. David
I suspect very few are looking to take their cyber/tech certs or degrees and go join the Marines or other branches. Certainly not when places like Amazon, Facebook's group of companies, and other large scale tech are paying a ton of money and bonuses to entry level nerds to join them. 100k+ per year out of school, working Monday through Friday (or some doing 4 day work weeks with options to work from home), with amble promotion opportunities or the chance to be headhunted by another company in a few years for more money. Or join any military branch, go through boot, advanced training, then go somewhere wonderful like 29 Palms, Ft. Hood, Fairchild, etc as the current system is set up.
I can see those who don't have the fiscal means of going to college without the GI Bill making that choice, then leaving with a few certs, going to college, then into a job with money and benefits the military will never reach. They might hang a branch sticker in their cubical or office, and that's it. No up or out, being forced out of the job they love into leadership positions to get a promotion or pay bump. The USAF for instance is hemorrhaging pilots because of policies like Up or Out. Guys who just want to fly are doing their 10 years and going to the airlines of cargo to make more money, better pay, better hours, less BS. Something like the old tech ranks would be a start.
Like most things, the issue has so many 'sides': recruiting and retaining, mandated collateral duties or other billet jobs, being forced to move every 'n' years, etc. I am not sure boot vs no boot will be THE singular 'thing' that will be go/no-go. One of the AF pilot issues aside from up-or-out is requiring them to be in leadership and non-flying billets. Navy has the same issue, even though even the Navy has a history of having pilots who only fly, and do nothing else.
I still have not made up my mind on whether I like it (not that it matters one whit), but I applaud Corps leadership in looking outside the box and looking at all options. For all the branches a major paradigm shift has to occur with regard to HR and manpower management.
I have to say, I have been amazed at how many Marines (AD as well as former) who are warming up to the idea of a no-boot camp model.
I'm curious, how many super-knowledgeable and experienced techies are clamoring to join the Marine Corps and are only being stopped by the idea of Boot Camp and a being lower enlisted?
It probably literally works out to 'can the Marine Corps afford to pay people with relatively high value degrees and skills to spend weeks feeling mentally handicapped'.
I think (quite a while after I was in, see sigline) that the Army had a "Stripes for Skills" program. For instance, for 30+ years I've been working as a credentialed Respiratory Therapist and Sleep Tech (RRT and RPSGT respectively). Back then someone with my credentials could join the Army as an E-5 and go through some kind of Basic Training, skip AIT as you were already credentialed/trained, and report to your permanent party unit as a Sergeant E-5. This new USMC proposal HAS to include some fashion of a boot camp, right? Right? Please tell me it ain't so.
Guy I went thru my EMT Basic and then Paramedic course with 14 years ago ended up enlisting 4 years ago. Because he had 10 years street experience as a Paramedic, he went in as an E5 as a Combat Medic. Went to basic but skipped AIT and went straight to his unit.
Guy I went thru my EMT Basic and then Paramedic course with 14 years ago ended up enlisting 4 years ago. Because he had 10 years street experience as a Paramedic, he went in as an E5 as a Combat Medic. Went to basic but skipped AIT and went straight to his unit.
I went through a similar program in the Navy. They had a short school for FMSS (field med school, the Marine's combat medicine/tac medicine school) for experienced providers, but after a few classes they stopped because even though the incoming corpsmen who had been civilian medics had mad medic skills, they had no tactical skills and were getting their asses killed (figuratively) at their first unit. There has been probably a dozen iterations of this type of program in the Navy I know.
The only way it makes sense to join the military with a Computer Science degree is if ROTC paid your tuition and you will be a commisioned officer. Just accept the fact you will be kept busy doing additional duties until you get some senority, then doing administrative tasks until you complete your service requirement and join the private sector for a 50% or so pay raise. At least you will get a Secret/TS clearance out of it.
Andy
The only way it makes sense to join the military with a Computer Science degree is if ROTC paid your tuition and you will be a commisioned officer. Just accept the fact you will be kept busy doing additional duties until you get some senority, then doing administrative tasks until you complete your service requirement and join the private sector for a 50% or so pay raise. At least you will get a Secret/TS clearance out of it.
Andy
I don't disagree with some of this. But, the Corps has enlisted MOSs it has to fill, and the quality of the people in those MOSs and the ASVAB requirements will require a different level of applicant (far smarter than I; talking Navy nuke type). Seems the discussion is how to recruit and how to retain. If they do nothing, then nothing will change.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-06-21, 16:44
It probably literally works out to 'can the Marine Corps afford to pay people with relatively high value degrees and skills to spend weeks feeling mentally handicapped'.
Lmao!
Another article, this one about shortage of recruiters. Like I said in a previous post, my dad was a people person and loved it, did two tours back-to-back. But the guys I know? They hate it. But they have to do it if they want to stay in.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2021/12/06/recruit-the-recruiter-marine-corps-still-in-need-of-recruiting-duty-volunteers/
teufelhund1918
12-07-21, 06:16
.... conspiracy theory... or could this be something along the lines of, "Dear Major Manly American Patriot, Your services are no longer required because your refuse to comply with our woke agenda... Welcome your replacement, Comrade Major Snowflake No Gender Z who is on board with the agenda."
I don't disagree with some of this. But, the Corps has enlisted MOSs it has to fill, and the quality of the people in those MOSs and the ASVAB requirements will require a different level of applicant (far smarter than I; talking Navy nuke type). Seems the discussion is how to recruit and how to retain. If they do nothing, then nothing will change.
Coming from one of those enlisted MOS background, with the comically low retention to back it up (<2%), that feedback cycle is real. Particularly so when most of the SNCO cadre are people imported from comm battalions who know very little about what is unique to a radio battalion, and only the smarter ones actually develop enough of a clue and appreciation for what us nerds were truly capable of. At least the O-2's would have finally figured out that they were not the smartest ones in the room (and quite often not even the most educated), and be able to drive on and become actually excellent leaders... but to some extent that poisons them to further USMC utility because they have then developed the incredibly rare and valuable skillset of being able to manage very intelligent skilled people, that is also very desirable to the outside world (particularly with a TS/SCI still active).
Coming from that specific talent pool (99 pctile ASVAB, >150 DLAB types), and not being completely incapable at the rest of the military tasking, the fact that no special retention effort had ever really been made besides allowing people to maintain the foreign language pay was telling enough. If they were throwing $35k bonuses at new kids to try and make it through, but no incentives to retain those with already the language and technical proficiency (acquired at far greater cost), then the business model is entirely reliant on a constant stream of fresh talent, and being an experienced old goat only had utility if one wanted to stay on and try to improve the SNR in the SNCO caste against the above mentioned problems.
[ETA Double Tap]
As far as leveraging this for making more parts of the Corps replaceable... I'd rather doubt it, since these are going to be some comparatively unusual positions.
This type of role is probably going to fall much more towards the 'would be millionaires living with their parents' types, just shoved into a barracks (or more likely underutilized BOQ)
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