View Full Version : Buying stripped lower, can it be pistol or rifle?
I understood if you buy a rifle lower, it can't be a pistol lower. But what if its a stripped lower?
PB
ViniVidivici
12-02-21, 13:50
A stripped lower will always be a "other" on the 4473, and therefore can be built into either.
titsonritz
12-02-21, 13:53
A stripped lower will always be a "other" on the 4473, and therefore can be built into either.
Spot on.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?202904-Legal-necessity-of-a-quot-pistol-quot-marked-lower
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?212712-Anyone-made-an-AR-pistol-out-of-an-LMT-Defender-2000-lower
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?212587-VA-stripped-lowers-and-pistols-vs-rifles
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?68898-Minimum-age-to-buy-a-stripped-lower
If you buy a complete lower with a rifle stock, it is still an OTHER and can be configured as a pistol so long as the stock is first removed and the lower is configured as a pistol before it’s configured as a rifle.
A stripped lower will always be a "other" on the 4473, and therefore can be built into either.
Depends on how the dealer writes it up on the 4473. Very wise to ask first...
Example: When my kid was 20 he bought his first stripped lower. Dealer transferred it as a 'rifle' - THAT is legal. Would not have been legal to transfer a 'pistol' to him at that age.
ViniVidivici
12-05-21, 09:33
Well of course, that makes sense. THAT dealer was just trying to help your son, and good on him.
Doesn't hurt to make sure for the rest of us. Good call.
Example: When my kid was 20 he bought his first stripped lower. Dealer transferred it as a 'rifle' - THAT is legal. Would not have been legal to transfer a 'pistol' to him at that age.
That contradicts what is written in the fourth thread I linked, and this ATF open letter: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/070709openletter.pdf
https://i.imgur.com/ec7SFbA.png
Depends on how the dealer writes it up on the 4473. Very wise to ask first...
Example: When my kid was 20 he bought his first stripped lower. Dealer transferred it as a 'rifle' - THAT is legal. Would not have been legal to transfer a 'pistol' to him at that age.
No, the dealer does not get to choose.
4473 Instructions are pretty clear, even if nobody reads them.
BTW, NOT LEGAL. Dealer broke the law. Under 21 can only buy a long gun from FFL. So he falsified the 4473 and violated 922(b)(1). 2 felonies on one form!
That contradicts what is written in the fourth thread I linked, and this ATF open letter: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/070709openletter.pdf
Guess what happens when jr takes his buffer tube and buttstock WITH HIM when he goes to pick up the lower...
Takes 30 seconds to screw that tube in there and slide the rifle stock on it. That dealer sold a rifle - Not a frame. Makes no difference if the thing is 'complete' and functional or not so long as that stock is half ass on there.
As I understand the law that is still not a rifle. It has to be mated to an upper or it is a receiver.
Guess what happens when jr takes his buffer tube and buttstock WITH HIM when he goes to pick up the lower...
Takes 30 seconds to screw that tube in there and slide the rifle stock on it. That dealer sold a rifle - Not a frame. Makes no difference if the thing is 'complete' and functional or not so long as that stock is half ass on there.
Still not a handgun or long gun, so it xfers as other.
Obviously nobody has read 4473 Instructions since my prior post.....
Five_Point_Five_Six
12-05-21, 22:50
Guess what happens when jr takes his buffer tube and buttstock WITH HIM when he goes to pick up the lower...
Takes 30 seconds to screw that tube in there and slide the rifle stock on it. That dealer sold a rifle - Not a frame. Makes no difference if the thing is 'complete' and functional or not so long as that stock is half ass on there.
I'm not sure it's possible for you to be any more wrong than you've been in your posts in this thread but I'm kinda curious to see how far you'll double down and go.
Guess what happens when jr takes his buffer tube and buttstock WITH HIM when he goes to pick up the lower...
Takes 30 seconds to screw that tube in there and slide the rifle stock on it. That dealer sold a rifle - Not a frame. Makes no difference if the thing is 'complete' and functional or not so long as that stock is half ass on there.
Even with a rifle stock installed, a lower is transferred as an OTHER. Remove the stock before installing a pistol upper and your good to go.
Even with a rifle stock installed, a lower is transferred as an OTHER. Remove the stock before installing a pistol upper and your good to go.
Not the one my kid bought... :)
Pretty sure as large as that dealer was that they knew what they were doing and if it was lawful or not. Was NOT some dipshit doing transfers from his garage.
No matter how big of a place he runs, he's wrong. I certainly hope that if he gets audited that he didn't do it too often and when receiving those lowers he entered them as "rifles" not "other" in his book. And he better hope that if they ever do a criminal investigation trace on a serial number from the manufacturer to his shop, that he entered them and disposed of them properly (which he didn't)
Funny thing is, in my neck of the woods the ATF is looking for these things when they visit. It hasn't happened to me yet, but the guy that convinced me to get my FFL so I could take over his customers, was inspected right before his license expired. The agent specifically went through all the AR style rifles and AR "others" in his book looking to make sure that they were properly handled. The interviewer from the ATF when I applied for my license made a big point about "others" are never "rifles" and are only available to those over 21 years old.
As for the big guys knowing what they are doing. Plenty of big shops get tied up in ATF violations. Being big isn't an indicator of legal knowledge at all.
titsonritz
12-07-21, 23:02
Not the one my kid bought... :)
Pretty sure as large as that dealer was that they knew what they were doing and if it was lawful or not. Was NOT some dipshit doing transfers from his garage.
I think you got the dipshit backwards. I deal with four guys that run their FFL out of their garage, the service, price and knowledge is far superior to many "big guys" I've been to, like not even close. AKDoug is spot on, a stripped lower is not a "rifle" or "pistol" it is an "other" and one must be 21 to legally purchase it because it can be built both ways.
ViniVidivici
12-07-21, 23:33
Well I was dead wrong for saying "good on him". Sounded like he was being helpful, but I didn't know FFLs were REQUIRED legally to list a lower as "other", assumed it was just common practice, as I'd heard of them being listed wrongly on 4473s in the past.
I could give a shit about firearms laws anymore, but a dude doing business as a FFL should definitely mind his Ps & Qs to avoid getting jammed up.
BangBang77
12-28-21, 11:59
Just for clarification, a complete lower bought as such with a buttstock is transferred as "Other" on the 4473?
Said lower can then have the stock removed and a brace added to reconfigure as a pistol before dropping a short barreled upper on it?
ViniVidivici
12-28-21, 15:45
Yes, all correct.
BangBang77
12-28-21, 19:13
Yes, all correct.
Roger that man. Thanks!
So if a stripped lower has “multi” engraved on it, can it then be built out as a pistol or a rifle legally?
Diamondback
01-01-22, 20:28
So if a stripped lower has “multi” engraved on it, can it then be built out as a pistol or a rifle legally?
"Multi" usually means caliber, not role.
ViniVidivici
01-01-22, 20:50
Yeah that's just because it might be made into different calibers, or the lower might even become host to multiple uppers, in multiple calibers.
I kind of wish they wouldn't put that on those, it's pointless.
So if a stripped lower has “multi” engraved on it, can it then be built out as a pistol or a rifle legally?
Engraving on the lower is meaningless. It needs to be bought as a stripped lower that says "receiver" on the paperwork, then built into a pistol first. If you build it into a rifle first, it is always a rifle and turning into a pistol is illegal.
I understood if you buy a rifle lower, it can't be a pistol lower. But what if its a stripped lower?
PB
I was reading legal on this and once stripped it can be repurposed to a pistol. This is a common misconception.
ViniVidivici
01-02-22, 08:51
Engraving on the lower is meaningless. It needs to be bought as a stripped lower that says "receiver" on the paperwork, then built into a pistol first. If you build it into a rifle first, it is always a rifle and turning into a pistol is illegal.
Incorrect. If it's a stripped, or complete, lower, it's sold as an "other" on the 4473, and can therefore be a pistol, or a rifle, or go back and forth as owner wishes.
Only items that were "rifle" on the 4473 cannot be then legally built as pistols.
Don't muddy the thread with incorrect legal information.
Incorrect. If it's a stripped, or complete, lower, it's sold as an "other" on the 4473, and can therefore be a pistol, or a rifle, or go back and forth as owner wishes.
Only items that were "rifle" on the 4473 cannot be then legally built as pistols.
Don't muddy the thread with incorrect legal information.
It can only go back and forth if it's built as a pistol first. If you build it into a rifle first it will forever be a rifle and be considered a SBR if you put a short barrel on it, even if you remove the rifle stock. Dumb law, but I didn't write it.
ViniVidivici
01-02-22, 11:52
You are still wrong. The only thing that matters is what it says on the 4473.
If it was sold as an "other", that's all it'll ever be in the eyes of the law. You can do whatever you want with it, back and forth. If you make it into something that qualifies as NFA, they want you to go through those hoops. Other than that, it does not matter.
Go read all the pertinent laws and stop putting incorrect information in a thread where specific legal questions are being asked.
You're incorrect. The definition of a pistol is: "A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:
a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);
and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)."
What it's marked as on the 4473 is not the only thing that matters. The key here is the "originally designed, made" language. A pistol must be originally designed as a pistol. If you take the bare receiver and build it into a rifle, you've made or designed a weapon originally intended to be fired from the shoulder, it can therefore never be turned into a pistol.
From the ATF:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-rifle-pistol-without-registering-firearm
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-pistol
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-pistol-rifle-without-registering-firearm
ViniVidivici
01-02-22, 13:00
And you think they have some magical way of knowing what you're doing?
Get real. Done debating with you, you're simply wrong.
As VVV points out. Completed or stripped it is an incomplete reciever, and transfers as "other". It shipped from the MFG that way and that's what it "IS". It is that MFG paperwork that matters. IF something is filed with the ATF changing the way that serial number is assigned, then it officially changes. Only then.
As far as the 4473, the dealer can get in trouble for transferring it wrong but that does not change what it "IS". If a dealer splits a rifle that shipped as a rifle, then that lower is still a "rifle".
And you think they have some magical way of knowing what you're doing?
Get real. Done debating with you, you're simply wrong.
If you put a short barrel upper on a rifle lower in your own home and create an illegal SBR, do they have some magical way of knowing what you're doing? No. Did you still break the law? Yes.
So your legal advice is to go ahead break the law because you probably won't get caught? Is that what you're saying?
I proved you wrong, deal with it.
Look up definitions of pistol, rifle, firearm, any other weapon, and short barrel rifle under the law.
If you have a stripped lower and finish building it, you'll end up in one of those categories. If you build it into a rifle it is then considered a rifle from then on, no different than a rifle you'd buy from the factory, and it is illegal to convert it into a pistol. There is no definition that says "this is a special rifle that can be converted into a pistol because it was built from a stripped lower."
You're just plain wrong.
If a man makes a rifle and nobody sees it.. did he really make a rifle?
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