View Full Version : "Our children will fight your children for hundreds of years..."
Message to survivors of Bataan Death March on their arrival to Camp O'Donnell delivered by Captain Tsuneyoshi - April 21, 1942.
You are mine. You are my enemy. You should be grateful to the great Imperial Japanese Army for sparing your lives. Our children will fight your children for hundreds of years and we will banish the white man from the Orient. You will die from old age under our command. We have laws here that you must obey. Anyone involved in attempting to escape will be given the death sentence. We have drinking water, but it is a death penalty to use water to bathe.
Excerpt from "Manila Bay Sunset - The Long March to Hell" by Billy Templeton. (2006)
Just finished reading this one and it is one of the first books in a long time about the second world war that has impressed me. It's a survivors account of the fall of the Philippines, the Bataan Death March, Japanese prison ships and final internment in Japanese POW camps in Manchuria.
It is a stark overview of some of the worst atrocities committed by the Japanese against prisoners of war in the Pacific. Came across the book because I am distantly related to the author (a relative of my grandfathers sister) who happened to also be from central Iowa.
The transition from young farm kid in Iowa to a B-17 crew in the pacific to patchwork resistance in the Philippines and all the horrors that followed were even more relevant having a strong understanding of where he began.
The culture shock of being a westerner with western values and then trying to navigate the murderous polices of the Japanese is almost impossible to relate. But this account vividly recalls his experiences from the surreal to those so horrific he wrestled with them to the end of his days and only this late in life was he able to recount them for the record.
Also gives an unforgiving and accurate depiction of the mindset, racism and propensity for barbarity of your average Imperial Japanese soldier and their war of domination in the Pacific and how they viewed all other "subject races."
Definitely worth the read. Amazon has it.
https://www.amazon.com/Manila-Bay-Sunset-Long-March/dp/0978515803
El Vaquero
12-09-21, 12:03
I’ve heard pretty horrible accounts about the atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers. It’s in stark contrast to how the Japanese people are considered these days.
But it should also serve as a reminder of just bad humanity can be and how bad people can treat other human beings. Obviously the Germans and later Stalin killed more people number wise, but I think the Japanese take the cake for level of brutality they dished out on prisoners and the natives of whatever lands they were occupying.
I’ve heard pretty horrible accounts about the atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers. It’s in stark contrast to how the Japanese people are considered these days.
But it should also serve as a reminder of just bad humanity can be and how bad people can treat other human beings. Obviously the Germans and later Stalin killed more people number wise, but I think the Japanese take the cake for level of brutality they dished out on prisoners and the natives of whatever lands they were occupying.
Don't underestimate the horrors inflicted by the Japanese. They were every bit the match for Hitler and Stalin.
The Japanese invasions and occupations throughout Asia were brutal. They murdered millions of civilians outright. Forced labor under brutal, miserable conditions killed millions more. It is estimated that over 20 million died during the Japanese invasions and occupations in Asia. They played second fiddle to no one in terms of murder and brutality. They west payed (and largely still does) more attention to the horrors of the war in Europe due to the inherent eurocentric bias of the west.
Only the terror of Chairman Rat Shit (mouse dung?, whatever ;) ) and the CCP can overshadow the horror of the Japanese occupation of China.
It's important to separate the people from the policies. The Japanese people weren't a whole lot different than Americans, Germans, or anyone else. But a percentage did swallow the pill.
Message to survivors of Bataan Death March on their arrival to Camp O'Donnell delivered by Captain Tsuneyoshi - April 21, 1942.
.
And how'd that work out for ya Captain Tsuneyoshi ? Oh wait...
Roger that Doc. The plague of Inhumanity is a scourge that all humans are suceptable to. None of us are immune.
I have found it's tendrils growing in myself a time or two.
El Vaquero
12-09-21, 12:56
Don't underestimate the horrors inflicted by the Japanese. They were every bit the match for Hitler and Stalin.
The Japanese invasions and occupations throughout Asia were brutal. They murdered millions of civilians outright. Forced labor under brutal, miserable conditions killed millions more. It is estimated that over 20 million died during the Japanese invasions and occupations in Asia. They played second fiddle to no one in terms of murder and brutality. They west payed (and largely still does) more attention to the horrors of the war in Europe due to the inherent eurocentric bias of the west.
Only the terror of Chairman Rat Shit (mouse dung?, whatever ;) ) and the CCP can overshadow the horror of the Japanese occupation of China.
Not underestimating the horrors. I guess I took a very wordy way of saying the Germans and Stalin killed more people but the Japanese were more brutal and torturous about it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-09-21, 13:23
It's important to separate the people from the policies. The Japanese people weren't a whole lot different than Americans, Germans, or anyone else. But a percentage did swallow the pill.
The idea that a wide swath of people won’t or can’t turn into monsters is what allows these things to happen. German and Japanese hatred of ‘others’ is based on the idea of the basic ‘unclean’ nature of them. Long a hallmark of ‘right’ movements, the left/collectivists in the US have taken it over and applied it to vaxinations. Not only are unvaxed people ‘dirty’ they are a health danger to the pure people. Being kept out of public spaces is one step away from being put on trains.
The idea that a wide swath of people won’t or can’t turn into monsters is what allows these things to happen. German and Japanese hatred of ‘others’ is based on the idea of the basic ‘unclean’ nature of them. Long a hallmark of ‘right’ movements, the left/collectivists in the US have taken it over and applied it to vaxinations. Not only are unvaxed people ‘dirty’ they are a health danger to the pure people. Being kept out of public spaces is one step away from being put on trains.
It's all in the idea of a hierarchy, you inevitably make second class citizens and then they become tool or something less than you. Think of the Stanford Prison experiment, it took a matter of days for them to become cruel and uncivilized. The Un-vaccinated or Trump Hillbilly right-wingers, etc. It is a way for them to marginalize and degrade someone for being human.
The idea that a wide swath of people won’t or can’t turn into monsters is what allows these things to happen. German and Japanese hatred of ‘others’ is based on the idea of the basic ‘unclean’ nature of them. Long a hallmark of ‘right’ movements, the left/collectivists in the US have taken it over and applied it to vaxinations. Not only are unvaxed people ‘dirty’ they are a health danger to the pure people. Being kept out of public spaces is one step away from being put on trains.
No population is immune, but neither is it inherent in the cultural DNA. They have to be conditioned. People are people, and most people are the same: wanna be left alone to live their lives.
Message to survivors of Bataan Death March on their arrival to Camp O'Donnell delivered by Captain Tsuneyoshi - April 21, 1942.
You are mine. You are my enemy. You should be grateful to the great Imperial Japanese Army for sparing your lives. Our children will fight your children for hundreds of years and we will banish the white man from the Orient. You will die from old age under our command. We have laws here that you must obey. Anyone involved in attempting to escape will be given the death sentence. We have drinking water, but it is a death penalty to use water to bathe.
Excerpt from "Manila Bay Sunset - The Long March to Hell" by Billy Templeton. (2006)
Just finished reading this one and it is one of the first books in a long time about the second world war that has impressed me. It's a survivors account of the fall of the Philippines, the Bataan Death March, Japanese prison ships and final internment in Japanese POW camps in Manchuria.
It is a stark overview of some of the worst atrocities committed by the Japanese against prisoners of war in the Pacific. Came across the book because I am distantly related to the author (a relative of my grandfathers sister) who happened to also be from central Iowa.
The transition from young farm kid in Iowa to a B-17 crew in the pacific to patchwork resistance in the Philippines and all the horrors that followed were even more relevant having a strong understanding of where he began.
The culture shock of being a westerner with western values and then trying to navigate the murderous polices of the Japanese is almost impossible to relate. But this account vividly recalls his experiences from the surreal to those so horrific he wrestled with them to the end of his days and only this late in life was he able to recount them for the record.
Also gives an unforgiving and accurate depiction of the mindset, racism and propensity for barbarity of your average Imperial Japanese soldier and their war of domination in the Pacific and how they viewed all other "subject races."
Definitely worth the read.
pisses me off still
It's important to separate the people from the policies. The Japanese people weren't a whole lot different than Americans, Germans, or anyone else. But a percentage did swallow the pill.
In this case I don't think you can separate them. The Japanese at the time viewed their emperor as a living god, the government was a defacto representative of the emperor. So anything the government sanctioned was essentially the will of the emperor as far as most Japanese were concerned. And once you have a divine sanction, everything done towards that goal is fulfilling service to the emperor.
Now no population in general terms is essentially good or essentially bad, people are still people. Lots of political assassinations in Japan during the 1930s of fair minded people who didn't support a military conquest of the entire pacific. Even among specific groups in Japanese society there is great disparity. There were samurai who would literally kill themselves before doing anything they considered disgraceful or dishonorable but at the same time there were samurai who engaged in political alliances of convenience who later betrayed their allies when it was advantageous and all other manner of despicable actions despite codes of conduct that taught them otherwise.
But in the larger picture, the Japanese of the early 20th century were every bit as capable of the same savage, barbarity as the Germans or Russians. They simply didn't build industrial death camps as efficient as the Germans, but that lack of sophistication didn't make them any less ruthless. They showed their hand at Nanking in 1937, most of the world failed to notice because it happened to "those people" and not us.
Averageman
12-09-21, 21:26
I've got relatives who fought WWII in the Pacific.
Uncle Slim got wounded and sent back to California, He had a talk with me when I joined the Military. My Uncle Moe was a gunner on the Saratoga and bore a distinct hatred for anything Japanese.
My Grandfather drove a Higgins boat at Guadal Canal. He hated the dirty Japs as he would say, till the day he died.
Adrenaline_6
12-10-21, 08:47
In this case I don't think you can separate them. The Japanese at the time viewed their emperor as a living god, the government was a defacto representative of the emperor. So anything the government sanctioned was essentially the will of the emperor as far as most Japanese were concerned. And once you have a divine sanction, everything done towards that goal is fulfilling service to the emperor.
Now no population in general terms is essentially good or essentially bad, people are still people. Lots of political assassinations in Japan during the 1930s of fair minded people who didn't support a military conquest of the entire pacific. Even among specific groups in Japanese society there is great disparity. There were samurai who would literally kill themselves before doing anything they considered disgraceful or dishonorable but at the same time there were samurai who engaged in political alliances of convenience who later betrayed their allies when it was advantageous and all other manner of despicable actions despite codes of conduct that taught them otherwise.
But in the larger picture, the Japanese of the early 20th century were every bit as capable of the same savage, barbarity as the Germans or Russians. They simply didn't build industrial death camps as efficient as the Germans, but that lack of sophistication didn't make them any less ruthless. They showed their hand at Nanking in 1937, most of the world failed to notice because it happened to "those people" and not us.
Yup...I think Nanking is one of the most "unknown" massacres in history as far as brutality goes.
I've told this story here before but when I was a little kid my Grandpa used to go to the local VFW on Friday eves for dinner (Chicken or Cod) and a beer or two. I very well recall going with him one evening when a guy showed up driving a Japanese car. This would have been in the early 70's .....
HOLEEEEE SHIIITE....You would have thought war had been declared all over again! Loud comments were made about his race, creed, religion, sexual preferences, parentage, alienage and there was a line 20 men deep offering to WHIP HIS ASS! He was "invited" to never show his face there again.
Right now I'm reading Forty Thieves, Marine Scout Snipers on Saipan.....Really good---and I well understand what all the "commotion" was about on that evening so long ago.....
From mid 80's to '08 my grandparents had a neighbor named George Burlage. He served on Corregidor, and survived the Bataan Death March. That man rightfully hated the Japanese with a passion, and he wasn't shy about sharing his views with others. He went on to become a journalist and taught journalism at the University of North Texas. IIRC, UNT has video and audio of him sharing his experiences available online.
https://usmcccaonline.com/former-pow-and-leatherneck-staffer-george-burlage-dies-at-90/
No population is immune, but neither is it inherent in the cultural DNA. They have to be conditioned. People are people, and most people are the same: wanna be left alone to live their lives.
For the most part true. It's those who DO buy into it that then become part of the problem, even though they don't wear a uniform. That is the hard part when conquering/victorious armies overtake their country. Who was the bad guy? Obviously most "civilians" (and I use that term very loosely) would never admit to supporting the murderous regime that was just snuffed out.
The Japanese, by their culture at the time, pretty much revered the Emperor. At one time most Germans no doubt supported Hitler. In COIN operations more often than not the locals tacitly support the insurgents; they are from there and you aren't. Where does one draw the line at shared responsibility? It is a conundrum our fighting men have faced for eons. Be it the post-war occupations of Germany and Japan, the rice fields of Vietnam, Anbar Province, or the sticks in Afghanistan.....those "civilians", to one degree or another, actively or passively, are/were supporting the guys trying to kill you and your friends.
I've told this story here before but when I was a little kid my Grandpa used to go to the local VFW on Friday eves for dinner (Chicken or Cod) and a beer or two. I very well recall going with him one evening when a guy showed up driving a Japanese car. This would have been in the early 70's .....
HOLEEEEE SHIIITE....You would have thought war had been declared all over again! Loud comments were made about his race, creed, religion, sexual preferences, parentage, alienage and there was a line 20 men deep offering to WHIP HIS ASS! He was "invited" to never show his face there again.
Right now I'm reading Forty Thieves, Marine Scout Snipers on Saipan.....Really good---and I well understand what all the "commotion" was about on that evening so long ago.....
My grandfather was a Marine in the Solomon Islands in WWII (Guadalcanal, Munda, and Bougainville). To the day he died he despised ANYTHING Japanese. He absolutely refused to buy anything made by the "Nips". The last TV he bought was a Sylvania; he swore he wasn't buying one of those "Jap TV's". We didn't have the heart to tell him that most likely the name was the only American component in the damn thing!
My grandfather was a Marine in the Solomon Islands in WWII (Guadalcanal, Munda, and Bougainville). To the day he died he despised ANYTHING Japanese. He absolutely refused to buy anything made by the "Nips". The last TV he bought was a Sylvania; he swore he wasn't buying one of those "Jap TV's". We didn't have the heart to tell him that most likely the name was the only American component in the damn thing!
My grandfather had a few friends who served in the Pacific and I never completely understood how 40-50 years later that hatred was so profound even though I knew much of the actual history. Wasn't until 9-11 that I got my first real understanding and even that isn't anything like experiencing the actual events right in front of you.
The Japanese really went out of their way to earn their Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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