View Full Version : Sap or blackjack for EDC
Wasn't sure where to post this, so I figured GD would work best.
A thread on LF got me thinking about this. I live bouncing between homes in UT and AZ where these are legal. I've also checked around a little on legality and CCW reciprocity in the states I routinely travel in. So legality aside, what are y'alls thoughts on EDC of a sap. I know my mom had one years ago but I've never carried one. Seems like a pretty good tool to me. With some education and practice, it also seems fairly reasonable that my wife and I could become proficient with one in very short order.
I tinker with leathercraft, mostly making sheaths for my custom knives, and I know I could easily build a quality example. I've also seen that they are available reasonably cheap.
I'm thinking this is gonna get added to my EDC very soon.
I'm by no means an expert, so this is just my opinion. I think it would be wise to know how to fight with one. If you are attacked by an opponent who knows how to fight (or at least better than you) they may be able to avoid your strikes. Just thinking out loud. My back is super messed up, so I know I wouldn't be much use in a fight, hence the reason I carry a gun.
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Averageman
12-28-21, 12:49
I've got one. I recommend them.
check out Mean Gene's leather work, I've got the tamale that with 25 dollar coins pack a considerable wallop https://www.meangeneleather.com/shop/mgl-hot-tamale-less-lethal-coin/
I have carried one around the world, never been stopped for it in customs. But had a story ready in case I got stopped. I carry it with me every day.
I have worn out 3 saps over the last 30 years, they are a fight stopper.
I have never had an off duty gun fight in the USA, but I have used my sap multiple times.
https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.2e197e47be4e40f1fa5e6ddb66bb3b88?rik=MT6PLiVVj0lRtA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.theamericanmirror.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2015%2f10%2fBruce-Lee-nunchucks.jpg&ehk=wdemj%2fxsIY%2fXwal2vr%2fLqGc3W5T4T9jotHXIhak%2bGF4%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-29-21, 05:48
UNWARRANTED OPINION:
Get some real training. Go enroll in BJJ and take a Muay Thai class after rolling. Train with Craig Douglas and Bill Rapier, those dudes are always around. A sap sure sounds sappy compared to legitimate training and the knowledge to use real defensive tools....
UNWARRANTED OPINION:
Get some real training. Go enroll in BJJ and take a Muay Thai class after rolling. Train with Craig Douglas and Bill Rapier, those dudes are always around. A sap sure sounds sappy compared to legitimate training and the knowledge to use real defensive tools....
I agree but I also understand a sap is simply a tool. In the hands of the untrained it is a potential liability and a limited asset, in the hands of trained fighters it is another tool that is useful or less useful depending upon the nature of their training.
Wouldn't be my first pic, but it wouldn't be stupid or useless either.
Everything has benefits and limitations.
BJJ is great unless you accidentally roll with somebody who has a knife...then you are on the ground holding somebody in close contact and will probably get stabbed to death. BJJ (and really all grappling) is great...unless you end up with multiple opponents.
People should not get caught up in style, they should view unarmed combat in four ranges and each has it own unique advantage and disadvantage.
Kicking range - Long weapons, gives reach advantage to those who cannot function in this range. Also gives better access to below the belt targets such as shins, knees and groin. But limited in tight confines like public restrooms.
Boxing range - Most useful, common weapons for most people. Better suited to close confine environments. Limited when placed against kicking range or if fights go to ground. People who can only function in this range generally are not skilled against protecting their legs or preventing take downs.
Trapping range - Rarely encountered skill set that most fighters cannot function in, this is the range where most people break down and run out of options. It is limited by the fact that trapping skills require a high degree of skill to apply in the real world, things happen very fast and very close. Novices who attempt to function in trapping range are in as much real danger as their opponents despite the fact that they have some training.
Grappling / Ground - Important range as this is where a lot of fights go even if unintended. Almost all "stand up" techniques break down on the ground. This is the quantum of combat where most of the rules change and completely different skills are required. Limitations are even skilled fighters give up some advantage if they go up against a weight disparity and if you have multiple opponents it is generally a bad idea to fully engage one of them which grappling tends to require.
But so long as you can function in four ranges, the styles you pick for your personal hybrid aren't terribly important so long as you engage in reality based training.
You can take Tae Kwon Do, boxing and wrestling and be pretty good to go so long as you don't get caught up in "rules for competition" limitations.
You can take any form of jujutsu (BJJ is one of many useful ryu), wing chun and shotokan karate and have a very useful hybrid, again so long as your training remains reality based and one doesn't invest too deeply in any given "style."
You can take Kodokan Judo (sport version of jujutsu), Muay Thai and Choy Li Fut (chinese boxing) and again have a very potent combo if one again trains correctly and realistically.
There are styles that try to be a complete martial art and address all four ranges, but they are simply hybrids themselves (Kajukenbo for example) and in other instances attempts at a "one size fits all" martial art which tends to do many things but maybe not all of them especially well.
As any fighting martial artists from any time period knows, it is more useful to know "many ways" than to try and force any defined style to fit all situations. The areas where you lack understanding or proficiency is likely where you will fail. A good fighter will always take you out of your comfort zones of understanding just as they will quickly determine your strong weapons and destroy them if they can and move to your weak side and steer you into undeveloped arenas of combat.
Weapons, especially hand implements, are simply an additional consideration to the above. Each has advantages and limitations and those factors will be emphasized by the skill or lack of skill of the given fighter.
Training for any tactics or improvised fighting implement is what is important.
Being efficient & well versed with 1 implement is better that carrying multiple items of increasing force multiplier.
That is why the average person is best served with firearms as their choice. If you need to defend yourself you'll need your best equalizer.
Some open hand distance gaining training should be included with your armed training, to aid in deployment of said implement.
That's my opinion of course, but is factual in application.
Training for any tactics or improvised fighting implement is what is important.
Being efficient & well versed with 1 implement is better that carrying multiple items of increasing force multiplier.
That is why the average person is best served with firearms as their choice. If you need to defend yourself you'll need your best equalizer.
Some open hand distance gaining training should be included with your armed training, to aid in deployment of said implement.
That's my opinion of course, but is factual in application.
In the case of the OP, he was talking about a secondary LTL option. He carries.
it also seems fairly reasonable that my wife and I could become proficient with one in very short order.
So I'd probably recommend against that. Much like stun guns, saps require you to come into very close contact with an attacker and I usually council people to avoid that as much as possible. Unless your wife is a very, very skilled fighter (and it doesn't sound like it) I wouldn't recommend any close quarter weapons. Violent (and usually efficient) career criminals are usually very adept in closing distance and neutralizing such defenses.
As a compliance tool for somebody who doesn't need to be shot and if you are positive you have the situation in hand, sure. But sadly such close contact impact weapons in the hands of anyone who doesn't seem formidable often invite attacks, this is why firearms in the hands of somebody willing to use them are such a deterrence. A 120 lb female can shoot you just as dead and a big WWF looking guy.
My thoughts are more along the lines of a force multiplier. Primarily used to "break contact".
I know my way around a fight, but I'm getting older. The wife not so much. Either way the idea would be to gain space in the event that a slip in situational awareness allowed the threat to close. Just seems like a handy tool that is easy to EDC.
ETA: If nothing else it'll be a neat little leather project even if they never leave the house. I have all the materials in the shop.
kaiservontexas
12-29-21, 19:18
Hit over head worked for cavemen. Honestly most fighting is intuitive. Styles are what makes things complicated, and most of that has to do with competition rules. I have a kubaton. Honestly if a cop ever asks what that purple thing is, I will say my buttplug since ya never know when it is time for some fun. It is not the greatest striking tool in the world, but it would suck and it is also like rocking a dime roll in your fist. So between sap and blackjack, whichever you like the best. Just remember your carry piece.
I got a bad back also, and I guess my cane would be my first useful fighting tool. I have my kubaton, pocket knife, Bark River Knives Bravo edc fixed blade, and Glock 30. I believe in options. I also know just because I am crippled does not mean I may shoot a person, if for example all the jackhat is gonna give me is a fat lip or black eye. Levels of conflict still come into play.
My thoughts are more along the lines of a force multiplier. Primarily used to "break contact".
I know my way around a fight, but I'm getting older. The wife not so much. Either way the idea would be to gain space in the event that a slip in situational awareness allowed the threat to close. Just seems like a handy tool that is easy to EDC.
ETA: If nothing else it'll be a neat little leather project even if they never leave the house. I have all the materials in the shop.
Better than nothing of course. Mindset is key and "break contact" assist is pretty on target. Just didn't want to see anyone fall victim to "stun gun" confidence. I've seen more pictures of women who got beat to shit because they stood and held or even moved on attackers because they believed their stun guns (usually low powered nonsense from a catalog) made them invulnerable when time and opportunity to escape or evade actually existed.
Just seen it too many times so any time I used to teach a self defense workshop I used to stress the hell out of "stun guns" are pretty useless and make you do dumb shit. For the same size, pepper spray is probably more user friendly with better results, just make sure and practice. Being down wind, catching back splash or having to wrestle with somebody you just saturated are all bad things.
Hit over head worked for cavemen. Honestly most fighting is intuitive. Styles are what makes things complicated, and most of that has to do with competition rules. I have a kubaton. Honestly if a cop ever asks what that purple thing is, I will say my buttplug since ya never know when it is time for some fun. It is not the greatest striking tool in the world, but it would suck and it is also like rocking a dime roll in your fist. So between sap and blackjack, whichever you like the best. Just remember your carry piece.
I got a bad back also, and I guess my cane would be my first useful fighting tool. I have my kubaton, pocket knife, Bark River Knives Bravo edc fixed blade, and Glock 30. I believe in options. I also know just because I am crippled does not mean I may shoot a person, if for example all the jackhat is gonna give me is a fat lip or black eye. Levels of conflict still come into play.
Research "hanbo" and "jo jutsu" for basic ideas. Kubo's are awesome if you know how to work pressure points. The part coming out of the bottom of your fist does wonders on or behind the collar bone.
I agree but I also understand a sap is simply a tool. In the hands of the untrained it is a potential liability and a limited asset, in the hands of trained fighters it is another tool that is useful or less useful depending upon the nature of their training.
Wouldn't be my first pic, but it wouldn't be stupid or useless either.
Everything has benefits and limitations.
BJJ is great unless you accidentally roll with somebody who has a knife...then you are on the ground holding somebody in close contact and will probably get stabbed to death. BJJ (and really all grappling) is great...unless you end up with multiple opponents.
People should not get caught up in style, they should view unarmed combat in four ranges and each has it own unique advantage and disadvantage.
Kicking range - Long weapons, gives reach advantage to those who cannot function in this range. Also gives better access to below the belt targets such as shins, knees and groin. But limited in tight confines like public restrooms.
Boxing range - Most useful, common weapons for most people. Better suited to close confine environments. Limited when placed against kicking range or if fights go to ground. People who can only function in this range generally are not skilled against protecting their legs or preventing take downs.
Trapping range - Rarely encountered skill set that most fighters cannot function in, this is the range where most people break down and run out of options. It is limited by the fact that trapping skills require a high degree of skill to apply in the real world, things happen very fast and very close. Novices who attempt to function in trapping range are in as much real danger as their opponents despite the fact that they have some training.
Grappling / Ground - Important range as this is where a lot of fights go even if unintended. Almost all "stand up" techniques break down on the ground. This is the quantum of combat where most of the rules change and completely different skills are required. Limitations are even skilled fighters give up some advantage if they go up against a weight disparity and if you have multiple opponents it is generally a bad idea to fully engage one of them which grappling tends to require.
But so long as you can function in four ranges, the styles you pick for your personal hybrid aren't terribly important so long as you engage in reality based training.
You can take Tae Kwon Do, boxing and wrestling and be pretty good to go so long as you don't get caught up in "rules for competition" limitations.
You can take any form of jujutsu (BJJ is one of many useful ryu), wing chun and shotokan karate and have a very useful hybrid, again so long as your training remains reality based and one doesn't invest too deeply in any given "style."
You can take Kodokan Judo (sport version of jujutsu), Muay Thai and Choy Li Fut (chinese boxing) and again have a very potent combo if one again trains correctly and realistically.
There are styles that try to be a complete martial art and address all four ranges, but they are simply hybrids themselves (Kajukenbo for example) and in other instances attempts at a "one size fits all" martial art which tends to do many things but maybe not all of them especially well.
As any fighting martial artists from any time period knows, it is more useful to know "many ways" than to try and force any defined style to fit all situations. The areas where you lack understanding or proficiency is likely where you will fail. A good fighter will always take you out of your comfort zones of understanding just as they will quickly determine your strong weapons and destroy them if they can and move to your weak side and steer you into undeveloped arenas of combat.
Weapons, especially hand implements, are simply an additional consideration to the above. Each has advantages and limitations and those factors will be emphasized by the skill or lack of skill of the given fighter.
As a wrestler, I take it to grappling as quickly as possible. Excellent balance and using your opponents energy and weight against him is key.
When I was prepping for State finals my coach would make me wrestle up / down the team. I was 126 weight class.
Our heavy weight was a Mexican over 3 bills and I never lost to that fat SOB.
Once I got him off balance and on his back he was done.
As a wrestler, I take it to grappling as quickly as possible. Excellent balance and using your opponents energy and weight against him is key.
When I was prepping for State finals my coach would make me wrestle up / down the team. I was 126 weight class.
Our heavy weight was a Mexican over 3 bills and I never lost to that fat SOB.
Once I got him off balance and on his back he was done.
Technique absolutely makes a difference, but all other things being equal, the bigger guy usually wins. And he is usually bigger (muscle mass vs. fat ass).
Hopefully you can also throw your hands well. As stated there are some times going to the ground is the last thing you want to do. When I did Judo we had an insane teacher who insisted on reality based applications so twice a week it was street clothes in the parking lot. Even if you did a perfect breakfall...it still really hurt to hit the pavement and you quickly learned a lot of your arm threads for chokes and arm bars meant severe road rash to the arms.
But that said, a long time ago a very experienced fighter said "If you can bring a friend to a fight and your choices are a judo black belt or a karate black belt...bring the judo black belt" and for lots and lots of reasons...he was correct.
Wrestlers / Judoka, etc. typically are in incredible condition fitness wise, they always engage in real contact as there really isn't a "tag your it" version of sparring as can be found in many karate schools that practice "non contact" sparring. They frequently also have an incredible sense of timing and distance and can close a lot faster than you think they are capable of doing.
I once decided to throw down back in my high school days with a school wrestler. He as big so I imagined he would be slow and I thought having black belts in both judo and karate styles made me more than his equal. Thinking I'd simply strike him out when he closed he very much caught me off guard with his speed and the next thing I knew I was on the wall and then we were on the ground. If he knew things other than "sporting" pins and competition finishes he probably had me. I had to grip and peel his floating ribs (new experience for him) to soften his pin and then I index finger hooked his collar bone to work him back off me. Ran him real high up the pain threshold to finally get him switched to a protective mindset.
Managed to hit him a few times and pretty sure he put me back on the damn wall at least one more time before we decided to give it a rest, both of us having learned a few new things. I might have done better had I not overestimated myself and underestimated him...but I'm sure he felt the same way.
My takeaway was to find some wrestling team guys to work with and build some familiarity and cross train. I assumed all my judo / jujutsu gave me everything I would need because wrestling was "just a sport" but I eventually figured out you can made damn near ANYTHING work if you train right.
When I was a PAL instructor back in the olden times, I don't think I had any mid level students that didn't cross train with the boxing team for very similar reasons.
Averageman
12-30-21, 05:53
Sap's work so well because, they break bones.
Not big bones like a femur, but small bones, wrists, noses etc.
The real trick with a sap is timing because you really want to make contact, then change directions.
In example your opponent throws a punch or attempts to grab your arm/wrist. Your sap comes down, makes contact with the hand/wrist, now you want to reverse and go to a backhand, advance a half step and bring it accross his nose.
Just like a waltz and it's relatively easy.
Technique absolutely makes a difference, but all other things being equal, the bigger guy usually wins. And he is usually bigger (muscle mass vs. fat ass).
Hopefully you can also throw your hands well. As stated there are some times going to the ground is the last thing you want to do. When I did Judo we had an insane teacher who insisted on reality based applications so twice a week it was street clothes in the parking lot. Even if you did a perfect breakfall...it still really hurt to hit the pavement and you quickly learned a lot of your arm threads for chokes and arm bars meant severe road rash to the arms.
But that said, a long time ago a very experienced fighter said "If you can bring a friend to a fight and your choices are a judo black belt or a karate black belt...bring the judo black belt" and for lots and lots of reasons...he was correct.
Wrestlers / Judoka, etc. typically are in incredible condition fitness wise, they always engage in real contact as there really isn't a "tag your it" version of sparring as can be found in many karate schools that practice "non contact" sparring. They frequently also have an incredible sense of timing and distance and can close a lot faster than you think they are capable of doing.
I once decided to throw down back in my high school days with a school wrestler. He as big so I imagined he would be slow and I thought having black belts in both judo and karate styles made me more than his equal. Thinking I'd simply strike him out when he closed he very much caught me off guard with his speed and the next thing I knew I was on the wall and then we were on the ground. If he knew things other than "sporting" pins and competition finishes he probably had me. I had to grip and peel his floating ribs (new experience for him) to soften his pin and then I index finger hooked his collar bone to work him back off me. Ran him real high up the pain threshold to finally get him switched to a protective mindset.
Managed to hit him a few times and pretty sure he put me back on the damn wall at least one more time before we decided to give it a rest, both of us having learned a few new things. I might have done better had I not overestimated myself and underestimated him...but I'm sure he felt the same way.
My takeaway was to find some wrestling team guys to work with and build some familiarity and cross train. I assumed all my judo / jujutsu gave me everything I would need because wrestling was "just a sport" but I eventually figured out you can made damn near ANYTHING work if you train right.
When I was a PAL instructor back in the olden times, I don't think I had any mid level students that didn't cross train with the boxing team for very similar reasons.
Good story, thanks for sharing. Yeah, the floating rib tweak would have caught me off guard as well. I've literally always been "involved" with folks who were bigger than me and I never lost. Kids / People can be assholes and I take great pleasure in making that point.
Its been a while though for the serious stuff luckily.
Last year I had a 25 YO son of a close friend who just got out of the Marines who thought he wanted a shot at the title. That didn't go so well for him and he was quite surprised I wasn't easy pickings as he had assumed. It was mostly for fun, but got serious for a bit when he realized he'd gotten into more than he could handle.
Adrenaline_6
12-30-21, 09:09
Technique absolutely makes a difference, but all other things being equal, the bigger guy usually wins. And he is usually bigger (muscle mass vs. fat ass).
I had to grip and peel his floating ribs (new experience for him) to soften his pin and then I index finger hooked his collar bone to work him back off me. Ran him real high up the pain threshold to finally get him switched to a protective mindset.
Floating ribs hurt like hell. In BJJ my teacher taught a move called the "scorpion lock". On the bottom in full guard, you put the inside of your knees on the side of each of his floating ribs, reached under your legs (under knee pits) with each arm either S gripped or gable gripped (whatever works) and used arms and back muscles to squeeze legs together. That sh*t hurt.
Good story, thanks for sharing. Yeah, the floating rib tweak would have caught me off guard as well. I've literally always been "involved" with folks who were bigger than me and I never lost. Kids / People can be assholes and I take great pleasure in making that point.
Its been a while though for the serious stuff luckily.
Last year I had a 25 YO son of a close friend who just got out of the Marines who thought he wanted a shot at the title. That didn't go so well for him and he was quite surprised I wasn't easy pickings as he had assumed. It was mostly for fun, but got serious for a bit when he realized he'd gotten into more than he could handle.
If you were at state level you were top of your game. There is a skill level line that once you cross it means everyone in the room can hurt you if you give them the opportunity. Problem is you throw down with enough half asses you think everyone is a half ass until you get a reminder.
Problem is you throw down with enough half asses you think everyone is a half ass until you get a reminder.
Great point. Although I think most of the assholes are also half asses.
It’s a personality trait.
titsonritz
12-31-21, 03:13
Floating ribs hurt like hell. In BJJ my teacher taught a move called the "scorpion lock". On the bottom in full guard, you put the inside of your knees on the side of each of his floating ribs, reached under your legs (under knee pits) with each arm either S gripped or gable gripped (whatever works) and used arms and back muscles to squeeze legs together. That sh*t hurt.
I've heard that one called the "scorpion crush".
I had to grip and peel his floating ribs (new experience for him) to soften his pin
That's new to me too. I have seen strikes or pressure to floating ribs but not that. How does it work?
That's new to me too. I have seen strikes or pressure to floating ribs but not that. How does it work?
Within Daito Ryu Aiki Justu is a subspecialization of gripping bones through the skin. For this one you basically work your finger tips (palm down fingers pointed at the belt) under the bottom ribs and pry OUT as if you are trying to peel the ribcage OFF of the body. They will flex a little and hurt a lot. Simply getting a good grip on them is painful for most people. There are only a few places on the body where the bones are small enough and unprotected by large muscle groups that this can be done.
The same specialization also has techniques that grip the windpipe rather than the entire neck for a choke.
Does that require especially strong fingers, or is technique and timing enough?
Adrenaline_6
12-31-21, 20:11
I've heard that one called the "scorpion crush".
Yea...different names from different teachers. Same pain though...lol
Does that require especially strong fingers, or is technique and timing enough?
Just practice. It's not difficult, but it's not something most people have ever tried to do. Also doesn't work on complete fatasses or people wearing lots of layers.
You can kinda practice on your own ribcage, but if you don't do basics like learning how to hook collar bones, you won't understand things like prying bottom ribs.
titsonritz
01-01-22, 17:58
Just practice. It's not difficult, but it's not something most people have ever tried to do. Also doesn't work on complete fatasses or people wearing lots of layers.
You can kinda practice on your own ribcage, but if you don't do basics like learning how to hook collar bones, you won't understand things like prying bottom ribs.
That shit makes me hurt thinking about it.
That shit makes me hurt thinking about it.
Spent three years learning Daito Ryu, and that shit DOES hurt. Think of ordinary jujutsu where they pull you forward to the ground by grabbing your jacket. Now think about a guy hooking his index finger behind your collar bone and using that as the leverage point to pull you to the ground. Thumbs used to get hooked under the back corner of the lower jaw and standard wrist grabs were done with the persons thumb pinned back under your palm. Basically instead of grabbing a persons clothes or doing basic arm bars, they leverage onto vulnerable bone structure and attack that directly in coordination with throws and take downs.
It is distantly related to koppo jutsu which is a specialization of attacking and breaking bones.
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