View Full Version : Why didn't Switzerland use or make the G3?
Or AK4 as I think the Swedes call it.
The other cold-weather countries with lots of open landscapes seemed to like it.
Why didnt the Swiss?
What did they use before the St 550 (or whatever its called) they began producing in 1990?
STG 57 chambered in 7.5mm Swiss, a superb long range cartridge .
STG 57 chambered in 7.5mm Swiss, a superb long range cartridge .
Yep and was already in service and worked very well. I believe the Swiss evaluated the G3 but found nothing that warranted a change. The real question is why didn't everybody switch to the SIG 550 when it came out in 1990. Brits were trying to make their SA80s work, France was still doing that FAMAS nonsense others still trying to get that last decade out of their decades old .308 legacy rifles.
Austria had recently (1977) adopted the AUG so I can see why they might not have been in a hurry. Belgium and Sweden both had FNCs so they were good to go.
I think Germany was the only country to drop a FAL pattern (G1) for the HK G3 and a big part of that is Belgium told them to FO when they asked for a contract.
TheAlsatian
01-05-22, 06:01
The STG57 was a better weapon, although it looks awkward. I owned the US version in 308 and it was actually a pretty ergonomic weapon. I agree on the Pe90. I believe the biggest negative on it was the cost. The FAMAS was not all that bad (I had one too in semi) but tellingly, French special operators used the SIG 550 series weapons and still do to some extent.
Interesting.
So the 550 was their first in 5.56.
I wonder what it does better than the FNC?
Unless FNC wouldn't let them build it under license.
The 550 isnt imported to the US, is it? And when it was I remember reading mixed things about. Quality or something was different than military versions. (Not just that it was semi)
The Stgw 57 in action
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/84138d3abf764ad15026194528c602a8.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/33c1476b093cadc0f314f966141ac00a.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/1510143f81b52abcc5cff1cda9d21dc9.webp
The Swiss army only used three rifles in the last 90 years (or 130 years if you consider the different evolutions of the Schmidt Rubin design)
K31
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/ef40a409784f25bb815e319d5d4f1c79.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/418f546f4231d1d61284f72de9e42e34.jpg
Stgw 57
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/73b56e9497e95ddc170de31a9ba0a08a.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/1682a9d27d80d1ce661e720c9ba6cdf0.jpg
Stgw 90
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/d4116d385aaee0d3dd0022ce1a6e7059.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220105/65d6c7fdfe9cf06916abc8e2d85a1325.jpg
All three pictured have been modified for competition within the allowed rules here in Switzerland
BoringGuy45
01-05-22, 16:53
I think the simple answer is that the Swiss do everything in house, on their terms, their way. Why use a foreign rifle when they made one that was just as good themselves?
The STG 57 and the STG 90 really are 1st in their class, the 57 for firing across canyons and valleys with switching winds and brutal weather conditions.
The 90 for being the Mercedes of 5.56mm assault rifles that readily morph into precision rifles within the cartridge capability.
Interesting.
So the 550 was their first in 5.56.
I wonder what it does better than the FNC?
Unless FNC wouldn't let them build it under license.
The 550 isnt imported to the US, is it? And when it was I remember reading mixed things about. Quality or something was different than military versions. (Not just that it was semi)
550 vs FNC. Having owned both, SIG is definitely more comfortable (ergos), better sights (diopters) and more accurate. Both operate on a AK style bolt, I find for me the folding stock on the SIG is easier to engage. Most here would prefer the FNC magazine as it is a drop free AR type magazine vs. a rock and lock AK type magazine found on the SIG.
Pretty sure SIG is still importing 553 variant handguns. I've heard it's possible to get a 551 series by special order. FNCs have been unobtanium since 1989 and I don't foresee them offering a FNC handgun.
The Swiss SAN imports are 100% swiss quality, but SIG USA is making a 556 "550 style classic" that is still dressed up garbage.
Not sure you'll find a bigger fan of the G3/91 series on this forum than I, but the truth is the Stg57 in .308 will outperform it and ironically it also uses a roller bolt. I wish I had a SIG AMT (.308 import version) but they were imported in very limited numbers and are definitely a grail gun wish associated collector prices.
TheAlsatian
01-05-22, 20:20
I also have owned a few FNCs. They are well made weapons but pale in comparison to the SIG 55x series in terms of ergos. The folding stocks are particularly lacking IMHO. Also I found the selector lever to be not as ergonomic. For an American shooter, the FNC's ability to use AR/NATO magazines is a plus but this doesn't matter to the Swiss.
I think the simple answer is that the Swiss do everything in house, on their terms, their way. Why use a foreign rifle when they made one that was just as good themselves?
Yeah, I believe that Hitler referring to the country as a "cancer within his reich" (because he didn't own it) probably motivated them to be completely self reliant and maybe not dependent upon German arms production for their national defense. Even if they were Georg Lugers first customer.
Swiss also seem to be right at the cutting edge of firearms technology as a general rule. Christ their K31s can stool shoot against a lot of modern bolt rifles.
I also have owned a few FNCs. They are well made weapons but pale in comparison to the SIG 55x series in terms of ergos. The folding stocks are particularly lacking IMHO. Also I found the selector lever to be not as ergonomic. For an American shooter, the FNC's ability to use AR/NATO magazines is a plus but this doesn't matter to the Swiss.
Only real criticism I have of the 551 series is they have a problem with the plastic coating on the charging handles. I'm on my second one that has cracked and crumbled. Really annoying because my PE90 is a lot older and it's much more durable.
Not sure how or why they cheaped out on the plastic for the charging handle but the damn things are almost $100 and I'm about ready to wrap it in electrical tape.
Yeah, I believe that Hitler referring to the country as a "cancer within his reich" (because he didn't own it) probably motivated them to be completely self reliant and maybe not dependent upon German arms production for their national defense. Even if they were Georg Lugers first customer.
Swiss also seem to be right at the cutting edge of firearms technology as a general rule. Christ their K31s can stool shoot against a lot of modern bolt rifles.
I see. Thanks!
Not sure you'll find a bigger fan of the G3/91 series on this forum than I....
Excellent.
I had a couple PTR91's but sold them because:
1. Stock way too long
2. No paddle mag release
3. Didnt like optic mount options.
So, as you know, PTR addressed those issues and now the Spuhr stock is available.
Have you used a Spuhr stock?
Edited to add..
-the PTR trigger stank for precise shooting...way too heavy
-Selector was a long reach, but I saw an extended one available?
- I added an HK21 charging handle those PCS? buffers. Both were good pieces.
Grand58742
01-06-22, 11:24
Yeah, I believe that Hitler referring to the country as a "cancer within his reich" (because he didn't own it) probably motivated them to be completely self reliant and maybe not dependent upon German arms production for their national defense. Even if they were Georg Lugers first customer.
Swiss also seem to be right at the cutting edge of firearms technology as a general rule. Christ their K31s can stool shoot against a lot of modern bolt rifles.
That's pretty accurate, but they never developed their own aircraft industry. They tended to use German fighters during WWII and Western designs afterwards.
It's interesting they developed a nice small arms industry, but not really anything else.
That's pretty accurate, but they never developed their own aircraft industry. They tended to use German fighters during WWII and Western designs afterwards.
It's interesting they developed a nice small arms industry, but not really anything else.
What's their ground-based air defense like?
Excellent.
I had a couple PTR91's but sold them because:
1. Stock way too long
2. No paddle mag release
3. Didnt like optic mount options.
So, as you know, PTR addressed those issues and now the Spuhr stock is available.
Have you used a Spuhr stock?
Edited to add..
-the PTR trigger stank for precise shooting...way too heavy
-Selector was a long reach, but I saw an extended one available?
- I added an HK21 charging handle those PCS? buffers. Both were good pieces.
So I never had a problem with the standard A2 (A3 on a G3) stock on any of my 91s or G3s.
91s didn't have a paddle mag, G3s did. With a big ol .308 magazine changes are going to be slow regardless and the 91/G3 isn't any slower or faster than a FAL mag change.
Now B&T has some low scope mounts but honestly I did ok with the factory clamp on setup from the 80s.
The HK trigger is heavy, but it is also that way to meet drop safe specifications of the German military. The HK trigger is also superior to nearly every AK variant trigger but you don't hear people crying about that one. It's not an AR trigger (and honestly seen people whine about their AR triggers) but it's also not a deer rifle. If you learn to shoot it (like Glocks crappy trigger) you get better and even with that trigger the HK is perfectly capable of being the 2-4 MOA rifle it was intended to be.
As for the selector, again it's not an AR. People cry about HK selectors but don't say anything about AK selectors. I've never had a problem with it and I've been shooting them since 83. I can operate the charging handle with a single finger, one handed from the prone position. If you learn your rifle, you can use your rifle. If you try and make you HK and AR, you will have problems.
That's pretty accurate, but they never developed their own aircraft industry. They tended to use German fighters during WWII and Western designs afterwards.
It's interesting they developed a nice small arms industry, but not really anything else.
Not sure about the particulars, but I imagine they had a Finland model of national defense where basically they will be in the mountains shooting up your shit because they aren't a flat piece of land you can blitzkreig across like France or Poland.
Post WWII the US basically provided for the defense of most western countries, which is how they could afford all that socialism during the Cold War, the exception being Switzerland which had some rules due to their declared neutrality. That is also why their 220 handgun had to be produced in Germany.
So I never had a problem with the standard A2 (A3 on a G3) stock on any of my 91s or G3s.
91s didn't have a paddle mag, G3s did. With a big ol .308 magazine changes are going to be slow regardless and the 91/G3 isn't any slower or faster than a FAL mag change.
Now B&T has some low scope mounts but honestly I did ok with the factory clamp on setup from the 80s.
The HK trigger is heavy, but it is also that way to meet drop safe specifications of the German military. The HK trigger is also superior to nearly every AK variant trigger but you don't hear people crying about that one. It's not an AR trigger (and honestly seen people whine about their AR triggers) but it's also not a deer rifle. If you learn to shoot it (like Glocks crappy trigger) you get better and even with that trigger the HK is perfectly capable of being the 2-4 MOA rifle it was intended to be.
As for the selector, again it's not an AR. People cry about HK selectors but don't say anything about AK selectors. I've never had a problem with it and I've been shooting them since 83. I can operate the charging handle with a single finger, one handed from the prone position. If you learn your rifle, you can use your rifle. If you try and make you HK and AR, you will have problems.
Thanks.
Definitely dont want it to be an AR.
But I do want a shorter LOP and it would be nice not to break grip to move the selector.
Also, the triggers on my guns had to be 8 lbs or more. But as you said, I'm not looking for than 2-3 moa. 2 would be nice with good factory ammo.
TheAlsatian
01-06-22, 20:33
Thanks.
Definitely dont want it to be an AR.
But I do want a shorter LOP and it would be nice not to break grip to move the selector.
Also, the triggers on my guns had to be 8 lbs or more. But as you said, I'm not looking for than 2-3 moa. 2 would be nice with good factory ammo.
I know of 2 ways to obtain a shorter LOP on the G3: 1-Use the wood stock ,it is about 1 inch shorter than the synthetic or 2-use the retracting stock and have it modified. I had Adam Weber of HKParts do mine. I'm 5'5 and it was an issue for me..
Thanks.
Definitely dont want it to be an AR.
But I do want a shorter LOP and it would be nice not to break grip to move the selector.
Also, the triggers on my guns had to be 8 lbs or more. But as you said, I'm not looking for than 2-3 moa. 2 would be nice with good factory ammo.
Kind funny, most people found them too short to the point that E&L Manufacturing produced HK stock extenders. Are you able to shoot a FAL or a full stock AR-10? We're your PTRs standard HK stocks?
As for the selector, I learned to click it off safety as I brought it to the shoulder or set down into a shooting position. I'm not one of those OCD folks who feel it must be put back in safe immediately after firing even if many other targets are imminent. I can get it from semi to full on G3s without any adjusting to that is the important thing.
Now trying to get a FAL on full auto, that requires a long thumb.
Grand58742
01-07-22, 11:58
What's their ground-based air defense like?
Other than the Oerlikon, I don't think they had much to add there either. And regardless, the Oerlikon was a German design...
Grand58742
01-07-22, 12:11
Not sure about the particulars, but I imagine they had a Finland model of national defense where basically they will be in the mountains shooting up your shit because they aren't a flat piece of land you can blitzkreig across like France or Poland.
Post WWII the US basically provided for the defense of most western countries, which is how they could afford all that socialism during the Cold War, the exception being Switzerland which had some rules due to their declared neutrality. That is also why their 220 handgun had to be produced in Germany.
They really did have the citizen-soldier thing down during the World Wars and the Cold War. Remember the alleged comments made to the German Chancellor before WWI.
https://i.redd.it/w8us06fg28o41.jpg
I know of 2 ways to obtain a shorter LOP on the G3: 1-Use the wood stock ,it is about 1 inch shorter than the synthetic or 2-use the retracting stock and have it modified. I had Adam Weber of HKParts do mine. I'm 5'5 and it was an issue for me..
I did try the wood stock. I got another and cut it down to make it shorter.
My lack of skill messed that up and I didn't try again. I think the buttplate became the problem.
I also had the A3 stock. Hurts the shoulder & the cheek. Not fun anyway.
So, I recall reading somewhere that the Spuhr stock considerably shorter and raises the cheek for optic use. Unfortunately I also read it makes the stock irons impossible to see.
Kind funny, most people found them too short to the point that E&L Manufacturing produced HK stock extenders. Are you able to shoot a FAL or a full stock AR-10? We're your PTRs standard HK stocks?
As for the selector, I learned to click it off safety as I brought it to the shoulder or set down into a shooting position. I'm not one of those OCD folks who feel it must be put back in safe immediately after firing even if many other targets are imminent. I can get it from semi to full on G3s without any adjusting to that is the important thing.
Now trying to get a FAL on full auto, that requires a long thumb.
Yea factory stocks. I'm 5,9. No, an AR A1 stocks are too long for me except prone and A2 stocks worse of course.
I haven't held an FAL in a long time and haven't fired one.
I'm with you on the safety engagement. The first rifle class I took I thought it was excessive but didn't argue of course. I still think long guns are safed too much. If shooting has started I'm not selecting "safe" until it's clearly over or I'm dropping the rifle or getting into or out of a vehicle or something.
That was back when I was AK-centric.
" This.......is my safety "
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-07-22, 18:48
1. I think the Swiss just like doing their own stuff. The really didn't even want to adopt the 5.56 because they "neutral."
2. The FAL would have really, really undermined the idea that they weren't just a NATO pal. The G3 would probably been more excusable. But again they like their own stuff.
3. The FNC just isn't that great. I am glad I have mine, but the gun is clearly designed to be a cheap alternative to the M16. It is a mass of ugly welds, tooling marks, etc. Basically looks like an alternative AR-18 where stoner decided to make an AK.
4. The 550 is the pinnacle of the 70s/80s super AK. It is truly a marvelous gun and is probably the best all-around rifle of that era.
Yea factory stocks. I'm 5,9. No, an AR A1 stocks are too long for me except prone and A2 stocks worse of course.
I haven't held an FAL in a long time and haven't fired one.
I'm with you on the safety engagement. The first rifle class I took I thought it was excessive but didn't argue of course. I still think long guns are safed too much. If shooting has started I'm not selecting "safe" until it's clearly over or I'm dropping the rifle or getting into or out of a vehicle or something.
That was back when I was AK-centric.
A3 stocks (called A4 on a G3) are f'ing meat tenderizers. One of the most painful stocks ever produced. Back in the long ago days I have a 51 B (beltfed) and my buddy had the same but with an A3 stock. That was the most painful shooting thing I've ever experienced ripping belts of .308 out of a shorty SBR with a parastock on it.
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