View Full Version : Ok, experts, pro's and commando's--SP5 or BT APC9 Pro?
Who has what and any drawbacks to either? One at a time-can't "get both" --not right away anyhow!
I do like the 3 types of lowers on the Pro, any preference on mags? For what it's worth, not reliving Die Hard or my MP5 SWAT days. Just fun on the range, not fighting zombies and may one day do the E file junk.
Much appreciated
Mark
hotrodder636
01-05-22, 07:13
I have both, the SP5 and APC9 Pro. These are my personal opinions (obviously). I like both of them but for different reasons. I think if I could only have 1, I would pick the B&T as it is more evolved than the SP5.
APC9 Pro—Pros:
Better ergos
Better trigger
Perm top rail for sighting options
BUIS
LRBHO
Multiple lower options (B&T mag, Glock mag, etc)
Cons:
B&T mags not as robust as they could/should be
Tri-lug only, no threaded muzzle
Shooting:
Smooth recoil, suppresses well, accurate
SP5-Pros:
Well established service history—reliable
Robust magazines
Solid iron sights
Cons:
ergos
trigger
Optic mounting solutions (they are out there but more limiting than a pic rail)
Shooting: smooth recoil, suppresses very well, accurate
I am biased and have never even handled the B&T. They make top notch stuff so you would be good with either choice.
I bought the SP5K mainly for the historical significance of the "platform." The trigger is typical HK and not great, but its a very solid, well build tank of a pistol that I don't regret. Agree with the post above on the HK.
I just picked up the APC9 FDE yesterday, from the FFL. Have not shot it yet, but holy sh** this thing feels well put together. I don't have an SP5, due to the availability and increase in street price, but I do hope to add one at some point.
My only comparison is to my EVO 9, and the B&T feels light years ahead in quality and control placement.
Also if considering the B&T in FDE, RE: the brace, SB tactical and B&T are no longer offering their braces in FDE (excluding the SBA3/4 variety).
Following. I've been toying with the idea of ditching the Mk18 for a PCC. I love the ballistics and commonality of the Mk18, but the mechanical issues with a barrel that short, the insane decibels, the cost of ammo, the way it kills silencers, etc. are all starting to really get on my nerves. And the PCC has the advantage of taking the same cartridge as my carry piece, which is nice. Would be awesome if it took Glock mags.
Speaking of which, what's the consensus on the APC9 with the Glock magwell? Is it as solid as the standard one?
I have not shot the APC9, but it is carried by YAMAM which for sure means it is a good bit of kit.
SP9, it is also a good bit of kit, but outdated a little. I say that while the PTR 32 is my go to rifle and it suffers from the same issues as SP9, no bolt hold and not the greatest ergos.
I have shot a CMMG 9mm and was very impressed at how smooth it was.
Following. I've been toying with the idea of ditching the Mk18 for a PCC. I love the ballistics and commonality of the Mk18, but the mechanical issues with a barrel that short, the insane decibels, the cost of ammo, the way it kills silencers, etc. are all starting to really get on my nerves. And the PCC has the advantage of taking the same cartridge as my carry piece, which is nice. Would be awesome if it took Glock mags.
Speaking of which, what's the consensus on the APC9 with the Glock magwell? Is it as solid as the standard one?
Same, though I want it to supplement my MK18. Have you had any/all of those issues (besides noise) with yours or are you just expecting them?
To the OP, I’ve never handled either but I’ve been watching the APCs for a while and many people seem to agree that the ergos are much better on the APC vs MP5 without sacrificing reliability. Lots of people have called it the modern evolution of the MP5 or something along those lines.
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hotrodder636
01-05-22, 11:37
I have not shot the APC9, but it is carried by YAMAM which for sure means it is a good bit of kit.
I would say that is a good indicator.
Same, though I want it to supplement my MK18. Have you had any/all of those issues (besides noise) with yours or are you just expecting them?
To the OP, I’ve never handled either but I’ve been watching the APCs for a while and many people seem to agree that the ergos are much better on the APC vs MP5 without sacrificing reliability. Lots of people have called it the modern evolution of the MP5 or something along those lines.
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My main complaint with my SBRs is the gas to face. To get the noise to anything verging on tolerable, you end up changing the way it's gassed, making it less reliable (or at least more finicky), still getting some gas to face, making the action filthy, etc. I've had some failures to extract that were caused by the heavy fouling. I mean the cases go in pre fouled, so it's like a worst-case scenario.
I've not had any catastrophic failures yet, but I do know for a fact that SOF carry spare BCGs for their Mk18s when out in the field. From what I've gathered, all units have at least the weapons sergeant carrying a spare, and I know of at least one in the 10th where every single man carries one on his person as part of their unit's SOP. That's coming directly from their innovation officer, so not rumor.
Even if your bolt makes it to 6k, your barrel's gas port is pretty much trashed by that time. And they're already super overgassed to begin with. They'll run an H4 out of the box, and you will straight need an H3 after a few thousand rounds.
The new 223 prices are the icing on the cake, though. I've shot through all my stockpile, so now I have to either dip into my M855 (which is kind of pointless because I can't shoot steel with it), or pay like 50 cents a round for tula, which I don't think I can bring myself to do. I might look into reloading, I don't know. I started saving my brass when all that went down, just in case.
But yea, it was easy enough to overlook those shortcomings when 223 was cheap. Now not so much.
Think I may go with the BT, seems like there's no real negatives. My former life of never ending days on the range and a "box" of ammo (case or two) was a mere radio call are over so wearing one out is most likely not occurring. I know the SP5 has it's cult following and yes, they are just plain cool, but maybe later. I was looking at spare parts, appears they are available if needed. Any input as what ones I may need as spares? Guessing the usual springs, maybe extractor, firing pin? Or is it like having spares for a USP?
Think I may go with the BT, seems like there's no real negatives. My former life of never ending days on the range and a "box" of ammo (case or two) was a mere radio call are over so wearing one out is most likely not occurring. I know the SP5 has it's cult following and yes, they are just plain cool, but maybe later. I was looking at spare parts, appears they are available if needed. Any input as what ones I may need as spares? Guessing the usual springs, maybe extractor, firing pin? Or is it like having spares for a USP?
Have you decided yet whether you're going with the Glock mag lower or the standard proprietary mags?
Think I may go with the BT, seems like there's no real negatives.
Not a bad pick for a fun gun. The SP5 is the MP5 copy right? I really can't seem love that operating knob on the Mp5. I'm too spoiled on the AR empty mag lock back that you get with the newer sub guns.
gunnerblue
01-05-22, 12:49
I picked up a GHM9k with the Pro-G lower (same lower as available on the APC). Were I not so invested in double stack 9mm Glock mags I mightve gone with the B&T magazine since, as I understand, a staggered feed mag is the better option for a subgun-type design. That said, I haven't encountered any issues running 147 grain hollowpoints (Ranger, Gold Dot) or flat nosed played bullets. The only issue I've had was swapping out the pistol grip- it attaches in the same manner as on an AR but the polymer receiver cannot handle much torque from he grip screw. Anything more than mildly hand tight will break the section of the receiver into which the grip screw threads. This is straight from B&T who were very kind in shipping me a brand new receiver when I, of course, broke mine.
Not a bad pick for a fun gun. The SP5 is the MP5 copy right? I really can't seem love that operating knob on the Mp5. I'm too spoiled on the AR empty mag lock back that you get with the newer sub guns.
Why do you say that? Is there something about it that makes it not okay for "real" stuff?
If we are honest the reason the MP5 is what it became is it was so different from the prior generation of sub guns open bolt, non bolt hold open on empty mag.
So they did closed bolt, without bolt hold open, it is a Europe thing.
I love my PTR32, because it is the best of the guns that are 7.62x39, I wish it had a bolt hold open on empty mag.
Can a person do good work with MP5, of course they can. The same way they can with 1911 or Hi Power.
My main complaint with my SBRs is the gas to face. To get the noise to anything verging on tolerable, you end up changing the way it's gassed, making it less reliable (or at least more finicky), still getting some gas to face, making the action filthy, etc. I've had some failures to extract that were caused by the heavy fouling. I mean the cases go in pre fouled, so it's like a worst-case scenario.
I've not had any catastrophic failures yet, but I do know for a fact that SOF carry spare BCGs for their Mk18s when out in the field. From what I've gathered, all units have at least the weapons sergeant carrying a spare, and I know of at least one in the 10th where every single man carries one on his person as part of their unit's SOP. That's coming directly from their innovation officer, so not rumor.
Even if your bolt makes it to 6k, your barrel's gas port is pretty much trashed by that time. And they're already super overgassed to begin with. They'll run an H4 out of the box, and you will straight need an H3 after a few thousand rounds.
The new 223 prices are the icing on the cake, though. I've shot through all my stockpile, so now I have to either dip into my M855 (which is kind of pointless because I can't shoot steel with it), or pay like 50 cents a round for tula, which I don't think I can bring myself to do. I might look into reloading, I don't know. I started saving my brass when all that went down, just in case.
But yea, it was easy enough to overlook those shortcomings when 223 was cheap. Now not so much.
10th Special Forces Group?
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Good to hear on the grip screw as I could briefly close a #3 Captains of Crush grip and would've been in the same boat. I think the standard lower and add another Glock most likely-or Sig as I have a few of each. As Yoni said, that's one heck of an endorsement with that unit using them.
Why do you say that? Is there something about it that makes it not okay for "real" stuff?
Not at all. Just addressing the OP's original intent for the pick. I find the B&T more enjoyable as it's ergo is closer to the AR platform I've spent my life shooting.
WickedWillis
01-05-22, 14:54
In on this as I too am saving for one or the other right now. The SP5 prices seem to be cooling off too.
10th Special Forces Group?
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Yes that's the one.
My buddy has APC9 and I have Z-5RS.
My MP5 clone is softer to shoot, but I LOVE the ergos of the APC, it’s like a baby scar and it’s built beautifully. However, anytime I take people to the range, the MP5 is the belle of the ball.
All that aside, I didn’t already have the Zenith, I would pick up a B&T. One with a Glock lower since I have endless Glock mags. In fact, I may pick one up eventually anyway if I find enough spare change.
I hope that helps.
My buddy has APC9 and I have Z-5RS.
My MP5 clone is softer to shoot, but I LOVE the ergos of the APC, it’s like a baby scar and it’s built beautifully. However, anytime I take people to the range, the MP5 is the belle of the ball.
All that aside, I didn’t already have the Zenith, I would pick up a B&T. One with a Glock lower since I have endless Glock mags. In fact, I may pick one up eventually anyway if I find enough spare change.
I hope that helps.
Is the APC direct blowback? I know it has that buffer, but that seems a little bit retrogressive compared to the MP5s operating system. I mean, direct blowback with a buffer is super old school if that's what's going on with those. I was looking at pictures of the field stripped parts and if it's not direct I don't know what else it could be.
Is the APC direct blowback? I know it has that buffer, but that seems a little bit retrogressive compared to the MP5s operating system. I mean, direct blowback with a buffer is super old school if that's what's going on with those. I was looking at pictures of the field stripped parts and if it's not direct I don't know what else it could be.
APC is direct blowback, but the two stage recoil spring system with the hydraulic buffer on the second takes the recoil to almost roller delayed levels. It is old tech, but it’s also simple and theoretically reliable.
The thing I take away from B&T’s is how beautifully they’re made. The only thing I’m familiar with that I can compare it to, is a custom 1911, in the way the whole thing feels like it’s on ball bearings. If you’re into that sort of thing, it’s pretty amazing.
Is the Angstadt Arms MDP-9 (https://angstadtarms.com/mdp9/) worth consideration?
APC is direct blowback, but the two stage recoil spring system with the hydraulic buffer on the second takes the recoil to almost roller delayed levels. It is old tech, but it’s also simple and theoretically reliable.
The thing I take away from B&T’s is how beautifully they’re made. The only thing I’m familiar with that I can compare it to, is a custom 1911, in the way the whole thing feels like it’s on ball bearings. If you’re into that sort of thing, it’s pretty amazing.
What about the port pop though? That was always the MP5's big claim to fame was that the roller delay worked really well with silencers.
Well, I should have the BT Sunday and said, f it and ordered the SP5, dang it.
Both is usually the right answer. Congrats.
Yeah, just dumped two X5's though, no biggie, haven't shot one on 2 years and never fired the other. But those are a dime a dozen anyhow.
in reference to the BT and HK, like keys and titties jingling, just gotta have them!
What about the port pop though? That was always the MP5's big claim to fame was that the roller delay worked really well with silencers.
I didn’t notice it. Moving my Omega9k from one to the other back to back, I couldn’t really tell a difference.
Well, I should have the BT Sunday and said, f it and ordered the SP5, dang it.
Nice! Congrats!
I didn’t notice it. Moving my Omega9k from one to the other back to back, I couldn’t really tell a difference.
You guys are making this really hard for me.
WickedWillis
01-07-22, 11:28
Is the Angstadt Arms MDP-9 (https://angstadtarms.com/mdp9/) worth consideration?
Not when discussing these two.
What about the port pop though? That was always the MP5's big claim to fame was that the roller delay worked really well with silencers.
Never noticed a difference between the two. Next time Pappabear brings the sub guns out, we'll have to try to hear any difference.
hotrodder636
01-10-22, 07:00
Congrats! You will enjoy them. Even if you decide you don’t like one of them, you should have no trouble selling either of them.
Well, I should have the BT Sunday and said, f it and ordered the SP5, dang it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-26-22, 21:52
Not a bad pick for a fun gun. The SP5 is the MP5 copy right? I really can't seem love that operating knob on the Mp5. I'm too spoiled on the AR empty mag lock back that you get with the newer sub guns.
You better sound off that you like to do the HK bolt slap, or I’ll slap you like a….. Mp5 bolt catch ;)
Well, I should have the BT Sunday and said, f it and ordered the SP5, dang it.
And…..
I cross shopped them and got an MP5, waiting for an MP5k - LGS says I’m top of the list for one, but they haven’t seen on in over a year(?). I think the right, objective answer is the B&T. Nostalgia got me to get the MP5. Went to pick it up, took a pic of it in the LGS and sent a pic to all my gun buddies with the message “Ho, ho, ho. Now I have a machine gun.” I have a P7 too, so I just need some C4 and Det cord to remake “Die Hard”.
I did kind of chimera it, I got the B&T collapsing Arm brace for the MP5. That check weld and the turret with front circle/post takes a bit getting used to. I think I’ll eventually SBR it and put a fixed stock on it.
The SP5 safety I think is improved over the years? It’s ambi and not that bad to manipulate.
You better sound off that you like to do the HK bolt slap, or I’ll slap you like a….. Mp5 bolt catch ;)
And…..
The SP5 safety I think is improved over the years? It’s ambi and not that bad to manipulate.
The Magpul lower and safety make selector manipulation very easy. AR easy. And a Bill Springfield trigger pack make the trigger quite nice. Not Geissele nice, but totally usable like the enhanced ALG or BCM PNT. I also chopped the front sight for a clear sight picture without being way high.
While I love my mp5, I do think the APC is technically a better, modern weapon system.
Brain picks the APC.
Heart picks the MP5.
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